Muslims in Rifts

[Axelmania]

I thought it would be interesting to play one but I don't really know much about what would be acceptable for them. I was wondering if anyone had ideas like how in Spirit West it limits OCCs according to which ones jive or don't jive with their beliefs.

Christians have a few specific OCCs like 'Fire and Brimestone Preacher' in New West (page 116 says it represents Judeo-Christian so it MIGHT also represent a Rabbi) or Catholic Priest OCC in Warlords of Russia page 208. I don't think any OCCs specifically for Imam or similar exist though, I wouldn't know how to stat it.

The only one I know for sure you can play is a Headhunter OCC since Rifts Mercenaries page 65. I figure most Adventurer/Warrior OCCs are on the table. Dawud is 'devout' yet able to use power armor. There is a strange lack of bionics/cybernetics listed for him though, even though Headhunters generally have those things. Does anyone know if anything about being a devout Muslim might prevent one from getting bionics or cybernetics or bio-systems?

The biggest limit I can see would be in the magic classes, and possibly also the psychics. Even the meditative stuff Cyber-Knights do... I'm guessing a lot of this would be like the Native Americans' limitations where using foreign magics is deviating from the religion, just without the techphobia.

I don't know of any other explicit Muslims other than Dawud. It's possible that the 8 Ogres who survived with him (all from the same village in Africa) are also Muslims, but I wouldn't jump to any conclusions, since his Ogre-village could have had varying beliefs systems.

MercTown gives some ideas about this too. It mentions on page 94 that Ackbar was sold by the Phoenix Empire...

Yet we know that all the volunteers from the village to join the Phoenix Army are either dead or in Braddock's Bad Boys...

So what I figure must have happened is after Dawud+8 escaped and murdered their Dybbuk officer, Rama-Set or one of his underlings must have gotten revenge by enslaving the rest of the village left behind who didn't volunteer for military service. Ackbar must be one of those non-volunteers.

I'd be interested in how to play another Muslim Ogre from that village, and how they might feel about Ackbar and Dawud. Who would they hate more? On one hand, Dawud volunteered to join the enemy and was never seen again... while Ackbar stayed to protect his people and got enslaved...

On the surface it seems like you would view Ackbar as a lost hero and Dawud as a villain. But then as you got to know them better, you would find out how things changed, with Dawud having infiltrated the enemy only to bomb them, while Ackbar essentially joined the enemy (coddled by a High Lord he's now loyal to).

How would female Ogres (perhaps mothers, sisters, or wives) of Ackbar or Dawud think of them? Surely embracing tattoo magic and high lords as Ackbar has done is sacriligeous...

How much MDC would a hijab sized for an Ogress have? Could you build a force-field generator into one? Would environmental body armor or power armor (assuming it's not a sexualized one like a Glitter Girl) fulfill the same form-obscuration requirements as a hijab? What about using a power like Psionic Invisibility?

One interesting thing would be the use of the sensitive psionic "Total Recall". People who memorize the Quran are called Hafiz or Hafiza. Would it be considered cheating to rely on this? Yet wouldn't a lot of psychics do so unconsciously?

[Killer Cyborg]

I thought it would be interesting to play one but I don't really know much about what would be acceptable for them. I was wondering if anyone had ideas like how in Spirit West it limits OCCs according to which ones jive or don't jive with their beliefs.

This is on my long list of gripes about the New West books.
Previous Rifts books had classes be generic enough that religion didn't matter, so anything could go.
You could have a Christian Line Walker who claimed that all of his power came from Jesus.
You could have a Muslim Mystic.
You could have a Buddhist Burster.
Heck, IIRC even in PFRPG, a "Priest OCC" wasn't dependent on Religion, only on whether you were in the general "Light" or "Dark" category.
(I think a Rifts equivalent was in the Pantheons of the Megaverse book. You might get some ideas there.)

Trying to hinge stuff on belief and bloodline mucked things up.

[Axelmania]

I think in PF it always has to be linked to a deity which exists in-game, would be up to the GM to decide on that. In the situation where the GM decides a deity doesn't exist in-game I'm wondering what OCCs a follower could be (since priest doesn't work if there's nothing in-game on the other end). Mystic is a good example although I could see other followers doubting the source (any mage could pretend to be a prophet so they would scrutinize who was an imposter or not).

How would being a learning-based class like LLW work though? Mystics I get since it's intuitive but you're clearly learning chanting arcane swear words and can purchase spells so I can see problems with many forms of Christianity meshing with the Ley Line Walker.

[guardiandashi]

I think in PF it always has to be linked to a deity which exists in-game, would be up to the GM to decide on that. In the situation where the GM decides a deity doesn't exist in-game I'm wondering what OCCs a follower could be (since priest doesn't work if there's nothing in-game on the other end). Mystic is a good example although I could see other followers doubting the source (any mage could pretend to be a prophet so they would scrutinize who was an imposter or not).

How would being a learning-based class like LLW work though? Mystics I get since it's intuitive but you're clearly learning chanting arcane swear words and can purchase spells so I can see problems with many forms of Christianity meshing with the Ley Line Walker.

to be completely honest A lot of people will object, but IMO I just reread the preacher and I only found 2 places that would conflict... 1 the Koran rants against the grape, which doesn't mean no alcohol just no wines although many do take it as no alcohol at all... and substitute a Koran for the bible, and other holy symbols for things like Crosses etc.

[Jorick]

There are two ways (which are compatible with each other) that I think can be used to incorporate modern monotheistic religions into Rifts.

One is that strong belief can lead to psionic and/or magic powers. While many are fairly conscious, circa 100 PA, of the process that is required to develop their abilities, there are many, including the mystic, from Palladium's worlds that accidentally have powers. You could pump up some OCCs from BTS, or just slightly modify any psionic type to be a result of the characters faith and focus.

Two is the metaphysical treatment of the deity in the Palladium universe in general. Much as the civilizations of Phase World consider magic and magic technology a result of some deep understanding of something akin to the cosmological constant, one could interpret the source and guiding principle of that force to be "the Creator." Einstein's Constant and God are not mutually exclusive, nor need they be in the Rifts universe.

In such ways, any Rifts class, including standard deities, can have modern monotheistic faith.

[Soldier of Od]

I always assumed the Preacher O.C.C. would cover imams too. Christianity/Islam/Judaism - they're all part of the same thing. Just ignore the 'tolerance to alcohol' ability. The O.C.C. just concentrates on the Christian angle because of the location in the new west setting.

I like your idea of a suit of power armour acting as a hijab or burqa! What would happen when she tries to enter a town that will not allow full body armour or power armour and she refuses to get out of her power armour on religious grounds?! That could be interesting!

Whether someone's religion will affect their choice of O.C.C. is up to the particular character - people have varying levels of devotion to their own dogma. One person might believe all magic comes from the devil or some such and condemn it loudly, while another person kind of ignores that bit, while still praying regularly and holding to other aspects of their faith. It is just as true today. It's basically a role-playing opportunity.

Sounds like you should roll up your ogre Muslim and play it out for yourself! What O.C.C. you pick does not have to be based on a list of limitations in a book, but should be based on the personal characteristics you choose your ogre to have and what he or she would choose. Go for it!

[Library Ogre]

I think there are a few OCCs that would be explicitly problematic with a Muslim character... Witch pops to mind as being weird, unless you go with my version... but most of them would work just fine, because Muslim belief and practice is in no way monolithic.

On psionics and magic, consider the position laid out by most non-fundamentalist Imams in Shadowrun... Magic is a human ability that can be used for both good and evil, and it how you use it, not that you use it, that is important. So Line Walkers, Mystics, Techno-Wizards, they don't have a problem. A Shifter, like a witch, might be a little off, but you could swing it pretty easily. Maybe the Crazy finds that the rituals associated with prayer help him control the crazy parts of him. Maybe the Juicer views the sacrifice of his life and longevity as worth it for what he is providing someone else.

[Killer Cyborg]

How would being a learning-based class like LLW work though? Mystics I get since it's intuitive but you're clearly learning chanting arcane swear words and can purchase spells so I can see problems with many forms of Christianity meshing with the Ley Line Walker.

All magic comes from forcing your will onto reality.
Which is to say, it comes from faith.

The spells themselves are just the end results, and there are multiple ways to get there.
We know that the words and gestures are meaningless, so it's all just about flowing PPE and getting certain results.
Christians can do that as well as anybody else, they just think about Jesus while doing it.

[taalismn]

[
All magic comes from forcing your will onto reality.
Which is to say, it comes from faith..

And for those who worship THEMSELVES, it's egomania that gives them the belief that I WAS BORN TO WEILD THE POWER COSMIC!!! MHWHAHAHAHA!

[Wise_Owl]

Islam is a complex, multifaceted religion with a variety of practices. Even in the present say the differences not just in the broadest sense(Shiite v. Sunni for example) are compounded by the cultural confluence around them. Sufi, for example, is a long-standing Muslim tradition of Mysticism, best described as attempting to 'discover' god. In terms of Islam within Rifts I suppose the biggest question is 'what is forbidden'.

So generally in Islamic jurisprudence learning Magic is considered 'bad', with several noted exceptions. Learning Sorcery to combat other Sorcerers is entirely acceptable. There is a history within traditional Islamic tradition of the 'Good Wizard' in similar terms to the 'White Witch' of European mythology. Some Muslims might be wary of a Sorcerer depending on what they do. I'm hardly a scholar on the issue, but using magic to harm people, and especially usurping other peoples will seems to be a big no-no.

As mentioned above Islam has a tradition of mysticism. There would likely be a comlex debate over various powers, but Mystics would likely be accepted. As would most psionics as 'Gifts from Allah' I suspect. Or at least that's a possibility, obviously the history of a given community is going to impact it's perception.

Another side-note, the idea that Humans can, through Gods will, have power over supernatural creatures is also common in Islamic stories. Though the message there is often of the classical 'D&D Genie' sort. i.e. That you deal with such beings at your own peril and that the best thing to do is to learn to get rid of them. Thus summoning magics to an extent, and certainly banishing magic would not be forbidden.

In all cases things will depend on the cultural background of the character in question and the community they come from. Islam has rules governing 'modesty of dress' which are followed at a huge range and in a huge variety of interpretations. The 'Burqa' and the 'Nijab' are two that are not very common outside their respective regions. A devout Muslim will have their own cultural ideas of what constitutes suitible clothing, similar to the range within say Christian belief. Strictly speaking a 'Hijab' is just a head-scarf, and again it's purpose is a combination of modesty and proclaiming religious affiliation.

[Library Ogre]

So generally in Islamic jurisprudence learning Magic is considered 'bad', with several noted exceptions. Learning Sorcery to combat other Sorcerers is entirely acceptable. There is a history within traditional Islamic tradition of the 'Good Wizard' in similar terms to the 'White Witch' of European mythology. Some Muslims might be wary of a Sorcerer depending on what they do. I'm hardly a scholar on the issue, but using magic to harm people, and especially usurping other peoples will seems to be a big no-no.

On this note, people really should read "Throne of the Crescent Moon" by Saladin Ahmed. It's a sword-and-sorcery novel set in a fictionalized Baghdad, with one of the main characters being the last of the ghul hunters... an old man who's spent his life hunting the undead.

[Axelmania]

I like your idea of a suit of power armour acting as a hijab or burqa! What would happen when she tries to enter a town that will not allow full body armour or power armour and she refuses to get out of her power armour on religious grounds?! That could be interesting!

My guess is they would carry a burqa rolled up in storage and require a spot to change into it. Maybe they carry around a big tent and assemble it and then exit the PA in the tent and change into the burqa there?

[glitterboy2098]

it is also worth bringing up a major gorilla in the room.. after the great cataclysm, one of the pillars of Islam, the five fundamental directives for how to be a muslim, becomes pretty much impossible. the first 4, faith, prayer, charity, and Fasting are perfectly doable on rifts earth. but the fifth, the Hajj, or pilgrimage to mecca, becomes impossible for nearly all the global followers of that faith. even ignoring the question of whether that city and the Kaaba within it survived the cataclysm, the fact is that global travel is so darn rare that unless you already live in the middle east odds are you won't be able to make it. or if you try, you end up spending most of your life trying to reach it. certainly it would be the rare person who managed to make it there and return. rather than everyone going at least once in their lives.

so you'd have to decide how the faith adapted to the lack of the traditional Hajj. have they found some other site to visit, in remembrance of Mecca? have they turned reaching mecca (whatever is left of it) into a grand quest, perhaps done when someone grows older or feels they are a burden on the community? or have they just soldiered on, lamenting that they are denied the Hajj? perhaps all of those and more? certainly with no global communications, the different regions of the world would see the Islamic faith find different solutions. after all, even with global media not all muslims agree on how to interpret some aspects of their faith in the modern world, or how to adapt/adopt to ideas from non-islamic sources. i suspect that much like how Christianity has split into a myriad different forms despite sharing the same core religious origins and literature, Islam would end up with many different variations in rifts, not just the Sunni/Shia/Sufi split of the modern world. and within those your likely to see just as many variations in fanaticism, conservatism, and liberalism as you do in the modern world.

[Axelmania]

Pilgrimage to Mecca can seem impossible for a non-wealthy Muslim even in present day due to the costs of travel. A lot of them might put it off for that reason. I'm not too educated on this, is there a time limit, like you need to have done this travel by a certain age or after X years of converting to Islam?

Aside from the risks of travel, another issue is: do people in Rifts Earth necessarily even know where Mecca is? Even without the continents being moved around, flooding, places rifting in and out, dimensional distortions... getting accurate maps after centuries of apocalypse is actually going to be pretty hard.

Plus even if you find a map, can you read the language it's written in?

My guess is they manage, but face a lot more difficulties than most present-day ones. It probably requires consulting some experts as to strange situations. Like I know they pray in the direction of Mecca too, right? So what would happen if say, you were a muslim on a submarine and the submarine got damaged and spun around the navigation was down so you had no idea which direction was north/east/west/south?

You might not always have access to a working compass and get lost in a jungle, for example, but still have a prayer rug. Plus even if you have a compass, that only gives a vague idea of the direction of Mecca, still nothing specific.

The ogre village for example is somewhere in North Africa. So to them, Mecca was probably roughly East or North-East. More sharply North-East a they moved eastward into the Phoenix Empire.

Upon getting sold into slavery in Atlantis though... would the guy in MercTown even know he was still west of Mecca? For all he knows, Atlantis might be in the Indian Ocean and Mecca might be North-West now. Or maybe Atlantis is in the Dead Sea and Mecca is almost directly south?

Maybe that kind of confusion and helplessness at being able to pray accurately could have contributed to what lead Ackbar to lose his faith and worship his High Lord master instead?

[kaid]

I thought it would be interesting to play one but I don't really know much about what would be acceptable for them. I was wondering if anyone had ideas like how in Spirit West it limits OCCs according to which ones jive or don't jive with their beliefs.

This is on my long list of gripes about the New West books.
Previous Rifts books had classes be generic enough that religion didn't matter, so anything could go.
You could have a Christian Line Walker who claimed that all of his power came from Jesus.
You could have a Muslim Mystic.
You could have a Buddhist Burster.
Heck, IIRC even in PFRPG, a "Priest OCC" wasn't dependent on Religion, only on whether you were in the general "Light" or "Dark" category.
(I think a Rifts equivalent was in the Pantheons of the Megaverse book. You might get some ideas there.)

Trying to hinge stuff on belief and bloodline mucked things up.

They are basically priests with a very picky pantheon. Even some PFRPG priests get specific benefits/prayers/miracles with some gods if they hew to that specific god. Things like the tribal warrior is not tied to any particular faith but if they want to use the fetish stuff and totem enhancements then they have to stay with their faith.

Given that all tribe members who are faithful get some pretty direct enhancements from their pantheon in the form of the totemic bonuses and fetishes. Even the minor fetishes are pretty potent power wise and seem pretty commonly available in tribes.

[Library Ogre]

The Hajj, while a pillar of faith, is also semi-optional, because many cannot afford to do it. A Muslim who never completes the Hajj is still considered a Muslim; there's no time limit, no age requirement, nothing of the sort. Simply "If you are able, complete the Hajj once in your life."

[Zer0 Kay]

I thought it would be interesting to play one but I don't really know much about what would be acceptable for them. I was wondering if anyone had ideas like how in Spirit West it limits OCCs according to which ones jive or don't jive with their beliefs.

This is on my long list of gripes about the New West books.
Previous Rifts books had classes be generic enough that religion didn't matter, so anything could go.
You could have a Christian Line Walker who claimed that all of his power came from Jesus.
You could have a Muslim Mystic.
You could have a Buddhist Burster.
Heck, IIRC even in PFRPG, a "Priest OCC" wasn't dependent on Religion, only on whether you were in the general "Light" or "Dark" category.
(I think a Rifts equivalent was in the Pantheons of the Megaverse book. You might get some ideas there.)

Trying to hinge stuff on belief and bloodline mucked things up.

Could you have a Christian Linewalker? Do they realm believe or were their parents so they are too. If it is faithful even if they find that they have psychic powers or a talent for magic they wouldn't use them as the Christian is told not to tolerate mystics, seers, etc. If seen in themselves the faithful would see it as a sign of sin and refrain. Other religions frown on mysticism and yet some see the mystic as blessed. There is a line between prophet and mystic, and it is from whom they are receiving the message and from whom the power comes. By my will or His will alone.

[Zer0 Kay]

Pilgrimage to Mecca can seem impossible for a non-wealthy Muslim even in present day due to the costs of travel. A lot of them might put it off for that reason. I'm not too educated on this, is there a time limit, like you need to have done this travel by a certain age or after X years of converting to Islam?

Aside from the risks of travel, another issue is: do people in Rifts Earth necessarily even know where Mecca is? Even without the continents being moved around, flooding, places rifting in and out, dimensional distortions... getting accurate maps after centuries of apocalypse is actually going to be pretty hard.

Plus even if you find a map, can you read the language it's written in?

My guess is they manage, but face a lot more difficulties than most present-day ones. It probably requires consulting some experts as to strange situations. Like I know they pray in the direction of Mecca too, right? So what would happen if say, you were a muslim on a submarine and the submarine got damaged and spun around the navigation was down so you had no idea which direction was north/east/west/south?

You might not always have access to a working compass and get lost in a jungle, for example, but still have a prayer rug. Plus even if you have a compass, that only gives a vague idea of the direction of Mecca, still nothing specific.

The ogre village for example is somewhere in North Africa. So to them, Mecca was probably roughly East or North-East. More sharply North-East a they moved eastward into the Phoenix Empire.

Upon getting sold into slavery in Atlantis though... would the guy in MercTown even know he was still west of Mecca? For all he knows, Atlantis might be in the Indian Ocean and Mecca might be North-West now. Or maybe Atlantis is in the Dead Sea and Mecca is almost directly south?

Maybe that kind of confusion and helplessness at being able to pray accurately could have contributed to what lead Ackbar to lose his faith and worship his High Lord master instead?

Uh, where did it say continents... Besides Atlantis, has moved?

[glitterboy2098]

The Hajj, while a pillar of faith, is also semi-optional, because many cannot afford to do it. A Muslim who never completes the Hajj is still considered a Muslim; there's no time limit, no age requirement, nothing of the sort. Simply "If you are able, complete the Hajj once in your life."

never said otherwise. but losing access to such a major part of the religion would have a cultural effect, and is something you'd want to keep in mind when figuring out how the faith adapts to the setting. after all, the Hajj is supposed to be a "everyone goes at least once in their life" thing. that many can't doesn't change the fact they are taught that and hold it to be a big part of their religious culture. even those who can't usually dream of it and look for opportunities to do it. being able to afford the trip would very easily become a life's goal. something to work towards.

but in rifts, if your in say, north america.. it becomes a physical impossibility rather than an economic one. the trip goes from "maybe if i can get the money" type dream to "epic story of adventure and heroism" type dreams. which is going to change things in the religion a bit, and effect the culture of those who follow it.

[Axelmania]

where did it say continents... Besides Atlantis, has moved?

Well they're always moving really slowly... inevitably with the earthquakes and flooding and existing in limbo in other dimensions I figure it's going to happen on some levels. Even if they haven't technically moved in terms of central mass they could seem like it due to reshaping like Manhatten being mostly buried.

[taalismn]

[

but in rifts, if your in say, north america.. it becomes a physical impossibility rather than an economic one. the trip goes from "maybe if i can get the money" type dream to "epic story of adventure and heroism" type dreams. which is going to change things in the religion a bit, and effect the culture of those who follow it.

The same would hold true of any world religion that Pre-Rifts had a sacred city or center. The loss of ability to travel there, or even to know if it still exists, would put a serious strain on subsequent generations, and, at the same time, raise the bar for the true believers.
Borrowing from history, it would be akin to the Jews in the Persian Exile, with the accounts of their former kingdom growing to near-mythical proportions in the eyes of the new generation exiles who didn't assimilate into the societies of their new neighbors.
The known destruction wrought by the Rifts, with the outright disappearance of entire communities might seem to put the kibosh on many religions' efforts to connect to their historic roots, but it's balanced by the knowledge/experience of Fadetowns and entire space-time transposed cities raises the dreams of the faithful that their traditional centers of power are still out there, protected by their faith, just waiting for the true believers to find, or some special circumstances (perhaps ideally brought about by the faithful) will return to Earth(to either rescue the believers or restore balance and order).
So I figure it balances out, and the more that the hard scientists/explorers discover about the post-Rifts Earth, Rifts, dimensional theory, and magic, the more it actually might help out the old faiths("Yes, there's swampland now where our historical holy center was supposed to be, but given the accumulated power channeled by faith that doubtlessly permeated the community and, by your own reckonings, its effect on the fabric of space-time, we believe that the city really survived, and is simply out of phase with our current world! How wondrous!").

[glitterboy2098]

true. though there are not a lot of world religions where taking a trip to a holy site is built up into such a big part of the faith. sure the Catholics have their pilgrimages but they also have a lot of places they can do those too, all around the world. and a method by which new sites for it can be determined. (which given the cataclysm and new dark age, there ought to be fair number of new places. even without the Vatican around to centralize the whole process)

[Axelmania]

This is true not just about unique holy sites like Mecca, but even the basic concept of having a church. There are no longer big fancy shelters with pews you can sit in, after all, in most undeveloped wilderness communities. Some developed towns would still have them, but even then, how comfortable would they be? How safe would they feel? Do they have MDC walls? Wards against invisible demons?

Religion would seem to regress to that whole nomadic family lore thing. A lot would also regress to word-of-mouth due to the deterioration in literacy and lack of availability to books. Verifying the phrasing of lore would become a lot more complicated and a lot more flexibility would exist for preachers to make personal calls and alterations without followers being the wiser.

[Svartalf]

The Hajj, while a pillar of faith, is also semi-optional, because many cannot afford to do it. A Muslim who never completes the Hajj is still considered a Muslim; there's no time limit, no age requirement, nothing of the sort. Simply "If you are able, complete the Hajj once in your life."

never said otherwise. but losing access to such a major part of the religion would have a cultural effect, and is something you'd want to keep in mind when figuring out how the faith adapts to the setting. after all, the Hajj is supposed to be a "everyone goes at least once in their life" thing. that many can't doesn't change the fact they are taught that and hold it to be a big part of their religious culture. even those who can't usually dream of it and look for opportunities to do it. being able to afford the trip would very easily become a life's goal. something to work towards.

but in rifts, if your in say, north america.. it becomes a physical impossibility rather than an economic one. the trip goes from "maybe if i can get the money" type dream to "epic story of adventure and heroism" type dreams. which is going to change things in the religion a bit, and effect the culture of those who follow it.

So Mecca becomes to muslims what Jerusalem and the Temple are to Jews, big deal, religions endure.

[Library Ogre]

The Hajj, while a pillar of faith, is also semi-optional, because many cannot afford to do it. A Muslim who never completes the Hajj is still considered a Muslim; there's no time limit, no age requirement, nothing of the sort. Simply "If you are able, complete the Hajj once in your life."

never said otherwise. but losing access to such a major part of the religion would have a cultural effect, and is something you'd want to keep in mind when figuring out how the faith adapts to the setting. after all, the Hajj is supposed to be a "everyone goes at least once in their life" thing. that many can't doesn't change the fact they are taught that and hold it to be a big part of their religious culture. even those who can't usually dream of it and look for opportunities to do it. being able to afford the trip would very easily become a life's goal. something to work towards.

but in rifts, if your in say, north america.. it becomes a physical impossibility rather than an economic one. the trip goes from "maybe if i can get the money" type dream to "epic story of adventure and heroism" type dreams. which is going to change things in the religion a bit, and effect the culture of those who follow it.

So Mecca becomes to muslims what Jerusalem and the Temple are to Jews, big deal, religions endure.

Or Zion in the minds of Rastafari.

[kaid]

It also is not exactly impossible to travel to mecca or at least to it ruins or water above them depending. It would be challenging and probably require some rift travel to do it as safely as possible. But it becomes more like the haji during the middle ages where for a large number of muslims in europe and asia the haji would have been just as daunting. Likely to take years to complete and frought with disease/wild animals/nature/bandits preying upon pilgrims. It is one reason having done the haji was such an honor because not everybody would be capable of it and many died in the attempt.

[Vrykolas2k]

I had them all convert to the Egyptian, Persian and Babylonian gods in my games.
Saves a headache.

[taalismn]

I had them all convert to the Egyptian and Babylonian gods in my games.
Saves a headache.

Or Pastafarianism...it has pirates.

[Wise_Owl]

The Hajj has specific religious purposes, but being unable to go for financial or physical constraints are considered legitimate. Just like alot of things in typical Muslim Jurisprudence has what we might call 'common sense' exceptions(Pregnant Women, The Sick, and Children are exempt from Fasting during Ramadan for example). In Rifts Earth, most Muslims would probably consider the Hajj to be more of a holy quest. And some-one actually completing it would be seen as a great hero. That's actually an interesting Idea. A Muslim character whose goal is to complete the Hajj, sort of like the Quests for the Holy Grail or what have you.

Now of course you'd have to figure out what happened to Mecca. We can presume given what little we know of the geopolitical cases of the pre-rifts world it wasn't nuked. It's located more than 30 KM's inland from the Arabian Sea, and Hundreds of KM from the Indian ocean, so it's probably safe in terms of oceanic effects as well. Probably issues are things like Sandstorms, the distruption of it's connection to trade networks supplying food and of course the supernatural. Since the city grew up in the 5th Century AD if memory serves as a center for Paganism it's entirely likely the Kabaah sits on a Ley Line Nexus. Ironically it's relatively late holy status may mean it's not considered a significant 'site' for many of the ancient deities(i.e. The Sumerian and Babylonian and Egyptian Pantheons have no reason to view it as significant). The Kabaah is suppose to be formed from a meteorite, so perhaps it has some sort of extraterrestrial origins, or given it's global signifigance during the Hajj it likely has a vast storage of P.P.E. Which makes me think of interesting possibilities in a whole bunch of directions. Perhaps it's a forgotten shrine, guarded by the last remnants of some Arab states defense force who don't even remember why they circle this particular parcel of sand. Or it could be the center of a massive conflict between various forces both benign and hostile. Or perhaps it's a mystery, a weird perpetual sandstorm keeping the entire area shrouded and invisible and none have returned from within.

[taalismn]

I'm leaning towards fadetown, which is fortunate, because I can picture more than a few malign djinn and other supernaturals laying siege to it, if it;s a center of power(inherent or accumulated). Makes the trial of getting to it all the more dangerous.

[Crow Splat]

I like what Wise_Owl is getting at. If Islam is that big of a deal for the character then the Hajj should be pretty important. It could potentially be the beginning of an entire campaign that travels the megaverse.

[Daniel Stoker]

It's a pretty good excuse to start an adventure and could be a lot of fun if done right.


Daniel Stoker

[ShadowLogan]

It's located more than 30 KM's inland from the Arabian Sea, and Hundreds of KM from the Indian ocean, so it's probably safe in terms of oceanic effects as well.

Judging by the Magic Triangle map in WB7 Underseas it does look like the Red Sea now connects to the Mediterranean Sea. WB4 Africa on pg110 has a map that shows the coast line of Africa and Southern Euro-Asia (including the Arabian Peninsula) has moved inland from Pre-Rifts time. Though it is hard to gauge how far inland the Red Sea has moved into the Arabian Peninsula in specific terms.

According to Wikipedia though Mecca is located approx. 80km from the Red Sea and is well above sea level, so it might exist as an island even with the rise in sea level.

[taalismn]

It's located more than 30 KM's inland from the Arabian Sea, and Hundreds of KM from the Indian ocean, so it's probably safe in terms of oceanic effects as well.

Judging by the Magic Triangle map in WB7 Underseas it does look like the Red Sea now connects to the Mediterranean Sea. WB4 Africa on pg110 has a map that shows the coast line of Africa and Southern Euro-Asia (including the Arabian Peninsula) has moved inland from Pre-Rifts time. Though it is hard to gauge how far inland the Red Sea has moved into the Arabian Peninsula in specific terms.

According to Wikipedia though Mecca is located approx. 80km from the Red Sea and is well above sea level, so it might exist as an island even with the rise in sea level.

Gets better and better as an epic destination....

[glitterboy2098]

Mecca is about 900ft above sea level, so odds are that yes it would be above the water in rifts. (sea level rise was about 300ft on average it seems.. the coastlines on the map vary quite a bit in terms of sea level rise, suggesting that there was some land rising and subsiding going on as well)

one thing to keep in mind.. the Kabba was originally a shrine for the many many tribal and household gods of the middle eastern peoples prior to Muhammed founding Islam. it became the center for islam after Muhammad destroyed all the idols to those gods, and made it over as a place dedicated to Allah/TheOneGod. thus, odds are it was on a nexus point or other place of high magic, in BTS/CE/Rifts. however it could well be that the spirits/entities that comprised those many tribal and household deities still congregate there. with the return of magic to the planet, those beings might have regained just enough power to be a hazard to travelers, even though they no longer have followers.

from historical sources, it seems likely that the greek and Persian pantheons might have had shrines/idols in the kaaba prior to Muhammad, but odds are they wouldn't have considered it a site important enough to claim when the rifts arrived and said pantheons became active on earth again. *shrug*

[Axelmania]

We can presume given what little we know of the geopolitical cases of the pre-rifts world it wasn't nuked.

Can we? Even today I bet there are conspiracy theories about secret cabals wanting to destroy venerated sites in a false flag operation to generate profitable wars. That kinda stuff could be much worse a century from now in the 'golden age'.

Even if it survived the nuclear war and the natural disasters, that would make it a place people would flock to and prime real estate for evil beings to try and set up shop and hunt the collected mortals unless they have some means of defending themselves.

I'm not sure what golden age tech was at... is it possible they had force field generators around this place and Dome of the Rock and stuff?

[taalismn]

I'm not sure what golden age tech was at... is it possible they had force field generators around this place and Dome of the Rock and stuff?

Not likely....The best they'd have in that direction might be smaller forcefields like what would wind up on the Ultimax or the anti-particle fields used in Mutants in Orbit to take the edge off particle beam and ion strikes.

You'd also have to consider the pre-Rifts economy. Cheap fusion and more efficient solar power would take away a lot of the clout and influence of the oil-sheilks, and cheaper nanotech manufacturing and molecular materials synthesis might even take away the important of petrochemicals as an industrial feedstock for making plastics. Depending on how nimble on their financial feet the oil-barons were, they might have successfully diversified and invested in new technologies enough that they'd still continue to be wealthy, and would have the money to buy heavily into Golden Age technologies. Or maybe a second Arab Spring wrought great changes in the region and the new regimes re-invent the local economies, including local industries and R&D that could perform their own Golden Age tech-miracles.
Under such circumstances, it might be entirely possible that the city of Mecca might see the effective reconstruction of much of its modern skyline with the sort of MDC structures that typify the American cities. And if terrorist violence became a greater issue(and Mecca has seen its share of such), than key public sites might receive security upgrades in the way of MDC outer security perimeters...exactly how substantial depends on the level of the threat, how much more liberally the threat is perceived, and how much the government was willing to throw at the problem.

[glitterboy2098]

actually the number of nukes used in the setting seems to be fairly minimal. just the south americans to start the cataclysm, and then a couple cases around the world where we don't know when they were used. given the description of the catclysm in both RUE and Chaos Earth, there seems to have been no global nuclear war, just a small regional one, followed by a lot of natural disasters. cases outside that conflict are rare enough, and in weird enough places militarily speaking, to make me suspect that the majority of them represent detonations during the cataclysm or the early 2nd dark age, where survivor groups (like say NEMA or military units, etc) tried to use nukes to take out demons and the like.

as far as force field go.. all the force field tech in the game so far seems to be of either post-cataclysm development (like Triax) or alien origin (Naruni, Kittani, megaversal legion, etc.) and the Triax ones are so poorly elaborated on it could well be something the NGR reverse engineered from an alien source.

and Taalismn has a valid point about resources. with the tech we know humanity had access to in the golden age, it is likely that the middle east's wealth was on shaky ground. we have enough examples of vehicles and such that ran on chemical fuels to know not everything had gone over to nuclear or renewables based electric power.. but at the same time, we know from real life that there is enough non-oil based options even for chemical fuels that oil probably wasn't top dog anymore. algea or plant based biofuels for example would be very simple for the advanced golden age countries to produce in bulk. and plastics can be made from a lot of the same biological sources. petrochemicals probably were still a market (many of the less developed nations probably would stick to it until they could advance far enough to not need it) but it would be a much smaller, less profitable one.

Diversification into other markets would help preserve the wealth some, but without the oil cash cow, their political pull on the rest of the world would be more limited. and the middle east doesn't exactly have a lot of big money makers once oil is removed from the equation. (honestly, one of the biggest money makers during the golden age is goign to be the stuff that is IRL starting to drive a lot of the chinese and central african economic developments.. Rare Earth Elements. which don't occur in high concentrations very often, but which an abundance of such minerals in china and parts of central africa have started being very lucrative IRL)

[Zer0 Kay]

where did it say continents... Besides Atlantis, has moved?

Well they're always moving really slowly... inevitably with the earthquakes and flooding and existing in limbo in other dimensions I figure it's going to happen on some levels. Even if they haven't technically moved in terms of central mass they could seem like it due to reshaping like Manhatten being mostly buried.

Lol

[Zer0 Kay]

It's located more than 30 KM's inland from the Arabian Sea, and Hundreds of KM from the Indian ocean, so it's probably safe in terms of oceanic effects as well.

Judging by the Magic Triangle map in WB7 Underseas it does look like the Red Sea now connects to the Mediterranean Sea. WB4 Africa on pg110 has a map that shows the coast line of Africa and Southern Euro-Asia (including the Arabian Peninsula) has moved inland from Pre-Rifts time. Though it is hard to gauge how far inland the Red Sea has moved into the Arabian Peninsula in specific terms.

According to Wikipedia though Mecca is located approx. 80km from the Red Sea and is well above sea level, so it might exist as an island even with the rise in sea level.

It already was

Suez Canal

[Wise_Owl]

Pre-Rifts geo-politics has always been kind of sketchy in general. We know there was a Golden Age. We know technology advanced considerably, especially in area's of Power, Robotics and Human Augmentation. I've assumed that in this world some sort of series of political miracles went down that led to global restrictions on oil extraction and such. Material Science took a few big bounds, and so forth.

One of the biggest problems with Rifts has always been that the pre-rifts political situaiton is suppose to be more than a century in the future, but always seems to reflect politics circa 1984 or so. If we want an 'optimistic' possiblity, some sort of pan-Arabic league birthed from a succesive series of revolutions/political campaigns. Though that isn't really that interesting in terms of a modern rifts campaign.

My main point regarding Mecca was that there is no overt reason for it to be targeted for destruction and plenty for it not to be.

The Pre-Islamic Pagan entities which use to be the focus of the Kabaah coming back to try and claim it is interesting. One other thing I thought of is that 'Enlightened' Djinni are a staple of Islamic myth and story-telling. Mecca could be a sort of shrine guarded by sects of Islamic Reformed Demons honoring humans dead for millennia.

In general though I would think the best options are to pick what generates the best adventures and most interesting outcomes.

[ShadowLogan]

It's located more than 30 KM's inland from the Arabian Sea, and Hundreds of KM from the Indian ocean, so it's probably safe in terms of oceanic effects as well.

Judging by the Magic Triangle map in WB7 Underseas it does look like the Red Sea now connects to the Mediterranean Sea. WB4 Africa on pg110 has a map that shows the coast line of Africa and Southern Euro-Asia (including the Arabian Peninsula) has moved inland from Pre-Rifts time. Though it is hard to gauge how far inland the Red Sea has moved into the Arabian Peninsula in specific terms.

According to Wikipedia though Mecca is located approx. 80km from the Red Sea and is well above sea level, so it might exist as an island even with the rise in sea level.

It already was

Suez Canal

True you have the Suez Canal that already connects the two seas, but this appears to be much bigger than the Suez Canal and has taken out a good sized chunk of the Sinai Peninsula to be visible on a world map (that is used repeatedly throughout the book as a template) where the Suez Canal is likely to not even be noticed or drawn in considering just WB7. And WB4 is quite clear that we are not talking about the Suez as we have a pre-Rift and post-cataclysm map to compare to (and the post-cataclysm shades in areas lost to rising sea/ocean).

[Zer0 Kay]

It's located more than 30 KM's inland from the Arabian Sea, and Hundreds of KM from the Indian ocean, so it's probably safe in terms of oceanic effects as well.

Judging by the Magic Triangle map in WB7 Underseas it does look like the Red Sea now connects to the Mediterranean Sea. WB4 Africa on pg110 has a map that shows the coast line of Africa and Southern Euro-Asia (including the Arabian Peninsula) has moved inland from Pre-Rifts time. Though it is hard to gauge how far inland the Red Sea has moved into the Arabian Peninsula in specific terms.

According to Wikipedia though Mecca is located approx. 80km from the Red Sea and is well above sea level, so it might exist as an island even with the rise in sea level.

It already was

Suez Canal

True you have the Suez Canal that already connects the two seas, but this appears to be much bigger than the Suez Canal and has taken out a good sized chunk of the Sinai Peninsula to be visible on a world map (that is used repeatedly throughout the book as a template) where the Suez Canal is likely to not even be noticed or drawn in considering just WB7. And WB4 is quite clear that we are not talking about the Suez as we have a pre-Rift and post-cataclysm map to compare to (and the post-cataclysm shades in areas lost to rising sea/ocean).

True enough, I was just nitpicking on the comment about it being connected after rifts.

[taalismn]

The Pre-Islamic Pagan entities which use to be the focus of the Kabaah coming back to try and claim it is interesting. One other thing I thought of is that 'Enlightened' Djinni are a staple of Islamic myth and story-telling. Mecca could be a sort of shrine guarded by sects of Islamic Reformed Demons honoring humans dead for millennia. .

And there would be just as many demons and unreformed Djinn wanting it destroyed(along with those defenders) for that very reason. Pilgrims would have to run a gauntlet of supernatural threats just to get inside, then try to get word out of a need for a liberation....I could see a series of concentric siege lines forming as the demons try to wear down the Meccans, and a forming army of liberation trying to wear down the demons and prevent reinforcements coming in from elsewhere, beyond that.

[glitterboy2098]

most of the stories i've heard of Djinn from folklore seem to treat them more like slaves/reluctant servants. i've never heard of "reformed" demons in that context.

however, i could see a small group of defenders that use Djinn/demons/spirits against the hostile ones.. using mysticism they capture and enslave soem of those besieging the site, and use them to fight back.

[Wise_Owl]

most of the stories i've heard of Djinn from folklore seem to treat them more like slaves/reluctant servants. i've never heard of "reformed" demons in that context.

however, i could see a small group of defenders that use Djinn/demons/spirits against the hostile ones.. using mysticism they capture and enslave soem of those besieging the site, and use them to fight back.

Jinn, in Islamic Theology, are like humans in that they are capable of being good/evil and all between. When the 'end-times' come, Jinn will be individually judged and sent to hell or paradise the same as humans will. There are plenty of 'enlightened' Jinn in both theological terms and mythological terms. In Islamic telling King Solomon had immense power over the Jinn and 'enlightened' hosts of them to the true path.

[Svartalf]

and the rest he put in bottles as legend abundantly tell us about, since bottle jinns are almost invariably evil egomaniacs