Dragons

[Razzinold]

How do you guys handle dragons in your games ?

Do you guys make them stick to the limits on being hidden as a human or do you give them some free pass handwavium and let them stay transformed as long as they ? (obviously I don't mean Chiang Ku lol)

The only dragon I've played for any long period of time was a Chiang Ku and I could stay hidden forever if I wanted to. I played a Great Horned Dragon in a chat game once but I was playing with other non humans so I didn't have to worry about hiding.

I have someone looking to play one and was wondering how you all handle it, or how your GMs have handled it.

[Blue_Lion]

There is a time limit but there depending on where they are they may not be hidden as human and if they did they just need to find a back alley to change in.

Typically when they need to hide the dragons I see take the form of small animals such as a cat or dog(if they lack invis). If they need to interact with humans as a human many take the form of a child to explain the maturity level. Several players where to proud to hide there true nature to interact with humans.

Typically groups with things like dragons tend to gravitate to home base locations that allow them. So they do not need to hide themselves.

So it comes down to is there a reason they need to hide, and why. Most dragons in my games spend most there time in dragon form, only hiding when mission or CS presence require it.

[Razzinold]

Dragons draw a lot of attention on a lot of places on Rifts Earth where humans are excepted as well. I.e. The dragon could walk tall in Splynn but there human companions would be treated like crap.

[Blue_Lion]

Dragons draw a lot of attention on a lot of places on Rifts Earth where humans are excepted as well. I.e. The dragon could walk tall in Splynn but there human companions would be treated like crap.

So a race with a ego draws attention you make it sound like a bad thing. Role playing the reaction to non humans is part of playing them. A dragon may be able to hide but why would he want to always hide, he is a dragon those lesser things should fear and respect him. Its not like they can drive him out of town with torches and pitch forks. Only a few races of dragons are knowing for hiding for as humanoid on a regular basis.

[Razzinold]

I'm not saying one way or the other of it's a good or and thing. Just curious to see how other GMs play it. As for the act of hiding itself that's the way the player wants to play the character, possibly even a secret from their own group.
It could tie in to your whole ego point as well. The dragon is smug in their knowledge/superiority in fooling everyone around them as to who they really are.

[say652]

As long as it isn't CS territory, be a Dragon.

[taalismn]

Dragons draw a lot of attention on a lot of places on Rifts Earth where humans are excepted as well. I.e. The dragon could walk tall in Splynn but there human companions would be treated like crap.

Keep your human pets on leashes, and wearing very prominent collars marking them as your property. Any of them give you lip about it, remind them loudly that you're sure there are plenty of places in Splynn that will do spaying and neutering.

[Nekira Sudacne]

How do you guys handle dragons in your games ?

Do you guys make them stick to the limits on being hidden as a human or do you give them some free pass handwavium and let them stay transformed as long as they ? (obviously I don't mean Chiang Ku lol)

The only dragon I've played for any long period of time was a Chiang Ku and I could stay hidden forever if I wanted to. I played a Great Horned Dragon in a chat game once but I was playing with other non humans so I didn't have to worry about hiding.

I have someone looking to play one and was wondering how you all handle it, or how your GMs have handled it.

I've actually never had to GM for a dragon with limited metamorphasis yet, so i'd never had to decide

I do ignore the bit about them weighing tons and tons in smaller forms. I just handwavium to say their mass is appropriate to their form.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The best I've seen a dragon played was before RUE was even a gleam in Kevin's eye.
The player playing the RAW, and had her dragon as having forgotten it was a dragon and had it transform itself every fews hours into a new form.Thus never holding a transformation for more then the rules allowed.

I've never played a dragon char more then one pick up game.

[Blue_Lion]

I'm not saying one way or the other of it's a good or and thing. Just curious to see how other GMs play it. As for the act of hiding itself that's the way the player wants to play the character, possibly even a secret from their own group.
It could tie in to your whole ego point as well. The dragon is smug in their knowledge/superiority in fooling everyone around them as to who they really are.

If it is a hatching it will not fool them for long. Two few skills and it is only a few months old so not mature. It will quickly become apparent if he actually helps in fights. Given the nature of the group travel unless he wonders into the woods every few hours to go to the bath room the time limit will spill the beans. Or some dog boy spills the beans or psi-stalker.

An adult or ancient dragon could pull it off a hatching not so much. most PC dragons start out as dragon children. If the goal of the player is to have a charter that keeps what it is a secret there are several better choices. a Nexus devel could pose as a shifter for example.

[Mack]

I do ignore the bit about them weighing tons and tons in smaller forms. I just handwavium to say their mass is appropriate to their form.

Where do you see that bit?

[Blue_Lion]

I do ignore the bit about them weighing tons and tons in smaller forms. I just handwavium to say their mass is appropriate to their form.

Where do you see that bit?

good question. I know it says they still have the str and power of there form but did not recall them saying mass stayed the same but thoaght it was just me, most magical transformation mass matches form.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I do ignore the bit about them weighing tons and tons in smaller forms. I just handwavium to say their mass is appropriate to their form.

Where do you see that bit?

It's always been there. The "note" under the dragons metamorphasis power section says that "regardless of it's shape, a dragon is a dragon" and does not instill any of the attributes or abilities of the creature they morph into. it's expictly only the apperance of the creature and nothing has actually changed. logically that means weight has not been changed either.

[Blue_Lion]

I do ignore the bit about them weighing tons and tons in smaller forms. I just handwavium to say their mass is appropriate to their form.

Where do you see that bit?

It's always been there. The "note" under the dragons metamorphasis power section says that "regardless of it's shape, a dragon is a dragon" and does not instill any of the attributes or abilities of the creature they morph into. it's expictly only the apperance of the creature and nothing has actually changed. logically that means weight has not been changed either.

I can see why you think that, but I always logically thought they talked attributes meant game stats such as MDC PS and such so they do not become sdc by turning into a human and powers to prevent it from getting psi-stalker powers by turning into a psistalker.. But Mass would match the form other wise it would be rather apearnt that the weight was off and if the turned into a smaller winged creature they would not fly. With magical shape changing unless it says mass stays the same I just assume it matches the form.

[Mack]

I do ignore the bit about them weighing tons and tons in smaller forms. I just handwavium to say their mass is appropriate to their form.

Where do you see that bit?

It's always been there. The "note" under the dragons metamorphasis power section says that "regardless of it's shape, a dragon is a dragon" and does not instill any of the attributes or abilities of the creature they morph into. it's expictly only the apperance of the creature and nothing has actually changed. logically that means weight has not been changed either.

We'll agree to disagree on that.

[Glistam]

When I played a Forest Runner dragon a few years ago I was with a party who accepted the non-human creature relatively well. So I only had to metamorph in Human towns, or whenever it was fun to do so. We never interpreted the metamorphosis text to indicate that the weight of the dragon stayed the same, either. We played outside of CS territory, more on the East coast.

[SpiritInterface]

We have always run that the Metamorphosis includes weight. As a player who is playing a Great Horned hatchling the time limit on the change is a pain. It does mean the GM has to be more conscious of how long it takes the heroes to perform tasks. Keeping track of cumulative amount time spent shape changed is also a good plot point.

[SpiritInterface]

Without a change in weight dragons could not walk anywhere, the would have to float or fly. The ground pressure would be so much with the smaller animals that the would sink towards the center of the earth. Just as a human a Great Horned hatchling would exert 20-24 tons of pressure per square foot.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I've never had the dragon maintain constant weight when metamorphed either. When he turns into a cat he weighs what a cat would weigh. Not many 100s or 1000s of lbs.

[Shark_Force]

on the other hand, that makes for a very useful ability any time you want to punch a hole in something.

[Crow Splat]

As others have said, I generally say dragons weight is consistent with their current shape. I do, however, allow the player to control their weight and increase it up to their full weight, but I hand-wave over the more egregious physics issues this can present.

One of the more cinematic and interesting uses of this was a character in cat form increasing his weight to full by using a "dodge" so that a juicer that was punching him would break his hand.

[SpiritInterface]

One of the more cinematic and interesting uses of this was a character in cat form increasing his weight to full by using a "dodge" so that a juicer that was punching him would break his hand.

And then promptly crashing through the floor, because he weights tons per square inch.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Wouldn't he break his hand anyway, as he was MDC No matter what he weighed?

[Blue_Lion]

Wouldn't he break his hand anyway, as he was MDC No matter what he weighed?

Depends on how the impact was made, the force and weather or not what he hit gave way I would think. If the cat dragon was sent flying from the punch his hand might not of adsorbed the force of the impact all at once. But then again I think most MDC armor has knuckle protecting gloves.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pretty sure if I walk up and punch a brick even if it's not in a wall and the brick that I punch goes flying, my hands' still going to break. Same thing with the MDC cat.

[guardiandashi]

Pretty sure if I walk up and punch a brick even if it's not in a wall and the brick that I punch goes flying, my hands' still going to break. Same thing with the MDC cat.

not necessarally.
for one thing the big issue is energy transfer and energy transfer rate. if I walk up and "shove" a brick with my hand really hard and fast (so that it goes flying) if my hand wasn't significantly decelerated as it came into contact with the brick, the no my hand is not going to break.

it kind of goes to one of the points in juicer uprising with the titan juicers. They are still sdc, creatures (in most cases) so if they do not wear mdc body armor on their arms and hands when they do punches that inflict MDC damage they will usually break (or shatter) bones in their hands and or arms. a perfect example actually occurs in a recent movie. Deadpool, when he tries to punch ... and kick Colossus... if you haven't seen it I will just say it doesn't work too well for deadpool.

[Blue_Lion]

Pretty sure if I walk up and punch a brick even if it's not in a wall and the brick that I punch goes flying, my hands' still going to break. Same thing with the MDC cat.

The cat being moved by impact is the same principle as rolling with impact to reduce damage by moving with impact you reduce the force absorbed, this applies to both the object hit and the one hitting as there is a backlash of Resistance to movement. A cat with a mass of 10 pounds or less is going to be moved by force at a level below what it takes to break the knuckles on your index and middle finder. because once its resistance to movement is over come it moves with the impact, it is the same principle as rolling with impact.

The reason behind things like panels on a car designed to crumple is because during a impact if something gives way to the force it reduces the amount of energy transferred to other things involved in the impact.


I have seen a martial arts demonstration where they break bats(bats can be used to break bones) with there hands but do not break there hands, as well as seen the break boards and cinder blocks. Even though what they are punching can be harder than the fist if it moves or breaks the fist does not absorb 100% backlash force at once if the force is spread out to the point that it is below the level to break a hand your hand will not break. You also see this in the staged pro-wrestling matches where they hit each other with mettle chairs and trash cans even though the mettle is harder than the bones the give on the impact reduces damage to the performer.

Baically a hard that moves with impact does less damage to what hit it than a hard object that does not move.

There are many factors in play that determine if you break your hand when you punch something. How the impact was made(impacts on the pinky and its neighbor or more likely to break do to them floating), force of impact(if the punch did not have the force to break the point of impact it will not break them regardless of what it hits),protective gear(gloves, padding and other things that absorb/reduce force applied to the hand) and weather the object hit gives way (this reduces force applied to the hand or spreads the force out over time). I am sure there are probably more but those are the main factors as well.

I would thing that although a dragon in cat form is resistant to damage it is not necessarily hard to the touch. (its damage restance could be based of magic absorbing damaging force and not hardness.
(Besides I have punched a brick wall without breaking my hand, now I did not punch it as hard as I could with a power punch but you can punch a brick wall without braking your hand.)

[Glistam]

I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

[Crow Splat]

One of the more cinematic and interesting uses of this was a character in cat form increasing his weight to full by using a "dodge" so that a juicer that was punching him would break his hand.

And then promptly crashing through the floor, because he weights tons per square inch.

You didn't read the sentence before your contextual quote did you?

@Pepsi Jedi: punching a 4 pound unbreakable object is likely to hurt but the object will probably just move. Make that object a couple of tons and the force of your punch is going to bounce right back at you. Similar principles to blacksmithing and anvils.

As for weight on a small footprint argument, depends on the floor. I drive a 5 ton forklift with 3 tons of weight on the forks and the footprint is maybe a couple of square feet on the high side. Haven't ever seen it go crashing through the concrete floor. Also have racking with 12 tons of concrete on them supported by a grand total of 64 square inches of footing (that's less than a square foot). Again, I've never seen it crash through the concrete.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pretty sure if I walk up and punch a brick even if it's not in a wall and the brick that I punch goes flying, my hands' still going to break. Same thing with the MDC cat.

not necessarally.
for one thing the big issue is energy transfer and energy transfer rate. if I walk up and "shove" a brick with my hand really hard and fast (so that it goes flying) if my hand wasn't significantly decelerated as it came into contact with the brick, the no my hand is not going to break.

it kind of goes to one of the points in juicer uprising with the titan juicers. They are still sdc, creatures (in most cases) so if they do not wear mdc body armor on their arms and hands when they do punches that inflict MDC damage they will usually break (or shatter) bones in their hands and or arms. a perfect example actually occurs in a recent movie. Deadpool, when he tries to punch ... and kick Colossus... if you haven't seen it I will just say it doesn't work too well for deadpool.

...... Because shoving something is the same as hitting something?

Um... No. No it's not. They're two totally different things. If I throw a brick, sure it doesn't break my hand, nor if I "shove" a brick, but if I PUNCH a brick, it would.

If you 'Punch" and MDC Cat it's the same thing. If you 'Shove' An mdc cat it's different. MDC cat might move if you shove it (Though unlikely as it's still got supernatural strength too) but shoving something isn't punching it at all.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pretty sure if I walk up and punch a brick even if it's not in a wall and the brick that I punch goes flying, my hands' still going to break. Same thing with the MDC cat.

The cat being moved by impact is the same principle as rolling with impact to reduce damage by moving with impact you reduce the force absorbed, this applies to both the object hit and the one hitting as there is a backlash of Resistance to movement. A cat with a mass of 10 pounds or less is going to be moved by force at a level below what it takes to break the knuckles on your index and middle finder. because once its resistance to movement is over come it moves with the impact, it is the same principle as rolling with impact.

The reason behind things like panels on a car designed to crumple is because during a impact if something gives way to the force it reduces the amount of energy transferred to other things involved in the impact.


I have seen a martial arts demonstration where they break bats(bats can be used to break bones) with there hands but do not break there hands, as well as seen the break boards and cinder blocks. Even though what they are punching can be harder than the fist if it moves or breaks the fist does not absorb 100% backlash force at once if the force is spread out to the point that it is below the level to break a hand your hand will not break. You also see this in the staged pro-wrestling matches where they hit each other with mettle chairs and trash cans even though the mettle is harder than the bones the give on the impact reduces damage to the performer.

Baically a hard that moves with impact does less damage to what hit it than a hard object that does not move.

There are many factors in play that determine if you break your hand when you punch something. How the impact was made(impacts on the pinky and its neighbor or more likely to break do to them floating), force of impact(if the punch did not have the force to break the point of impact it will not break them regardless of what it hits),protective gear(gloves, padding and other things that absorb/reduce force applied to the hand) and weather the object hit gives way (this reduces force applied to the hand or spreads the force out over time). I am sure there are probably more but those are the main factors as well.

I would thing that although a dragon in cat form is resistant to damage it is not necessarily hard to the touch. (its damage restance could be based of magic absorbing damaging force and not hardness.
(Besides I have punched a brick wall without breaking my hand, now I did not punch it as hard as I could with a power punch but you can punch a brick wall without braking your hand.)

Right. You're superman punching through brick walls with your hands.

In the real world it doesn't matter. If you punch a brick as hard as you can it's going to damage your hand. Yes I've taken marital arts too. Those are tricks and exhibits. Not real world examples. No martial artist is out there randomly punching through walls because he did it during a show for his brown belt.

More over the Dragon as a cat is still an MDC creature. It might have soft fur but if you try and kick it, (Or punch) It's the same thing as if you kicked or punched an MDC Tank. You can go on about how impacts are made and bla bla bla but it doesn't really matter. You go up and punch a tank full force as hard as you can, you're going to damage your hand. Same thing with the Dragon/cat. As it's got the same (If not more) MDC than the tank. Even if it's shaped like a cat.

[Pepsi Jedi]

@Pepsi Jedi: punching a 4 pound unbreakable object is likely to hurt but the object will probably just move. Make that object a couple of tons and the force of your punch is going to bounce right back at you. Similar principles to blacksmithing and anvils.
.

4lbs is a small cat. lol but still. That 4lbs object still has supernatural strength. Punching it isn't going to move it an inch. That dragon cat's gonna laugh at you as your hand breaks then rip off your leg with it's little catty paw.

[Razzinold]

Ok let's move on from abusing MDC cats

Now the book mentions you start anywhere between 6D6 hours - 8D6 days old but then speaks of nothing in between that and reaching full maturity at 600 years of age.
Even at the 600 point the mention that the Dragon's physical attributes increase immensely, but fail to mention by how much (at least I couldn't find it any way).

So getting back on topic, appreciating all the help/input by the way, how would you guys handle Dragons at different ages along the way ?

Say physical maturity maturity occurs age 18 - 20 (600 years) so what a preteen - teen dragon would be like 200-300 years old ? What level would you consider that ?

[Pepsi Jedi]

If you look in Dragon's and Gods, in the section pertaining, it points out that untill they hit that 600 year point they're basically children (hatchlings) That attaining that age, would equate to roughly 9th-12th lvl. Where in they have a sort of mental epiphany, and realize. "Whoa... I'm in this for the long haul" and their maturity kicks in, when it happens it triggers a startling and rapid maturation of the physical as well.

So... in short... they're "Hatchlings" Right up till they're 'Adults' and it's an over night sort of transformation.

Now... that's RAW... I suspect that it's simply a reason not to need entire books like D&D's Draganomicons (There's what at least three that I have so probably many more) Dedicated just to dragons and their life cycles. Palladium has dumbed it down a bit. Giving us "Hatchlings, up till 600, then BOOM adults"

[guardiandashi]

Ok let's move on from abusing MDC cats

Now the book mentions you start anywhere between 6D6 hours - 8D6 days old but then speaks of nothing in between that and reaching full maturity at 600 years of age.
Even at the 600 point the mention that the Dragon's physical attributes increase immensely, but fail to mention by how much (at least I couldn't find it any way).

So getting back on topic, appreciating all the help/input by the way, how would you guys handle Dragons at different ages along the way ?

Say physical maturity maturity occurs age 18 - 20 (600 years) so what a preteen - teen dragon would be like 200-300 years old ? What level would you consider that ?

the way the book reads... you use the hatchling stat blocks until they hit adult stage then use the adult stat blocks (which exist for most dragons) now as I see it there are really 2 options on how to handle the stats.

option 1 "adult jump" the dragon uses the hatchling stats until it is ~adult age, then does "something" like goes to sleep and metamorphosis's into an adult (similar to a caterpillar to a butterfly)

option 2 build a set of "aging tables" similar to the D&D dragon age bracket tables where at certain points say every 100 years or so they get a bump until by the "adult" stage of ~600-800ish years they have their full adult stats

[Blue_Lion]

Pretty sure if I walk up and punch a brick even if it's not in a wall and the brick that I punch goes flying, my hands' still going to break. Same thing with the MDC cat.

The cat being moved by impact is the same principle as rolling with impact to reduce damage by moving with impact you reduce the force absorbed, this applies to both the object hit and the one hitting as there is a backlash of Resistance to movement. A cat with a mass of 10 pounds or less is going to be moved by force at a level below what it takes to break the knuckles on your index and middle finder. because once its resistance to movement is over come it moves with the impact, it is the same principle as rolling with impact.

The reason behind things like panels on a car designed to crumple is because during a impact if something gives way to the force it reduces the amount of energy transferred to other things involved in the impact.


I have seen a martial arts demonstration where they break bats(bats can be used to break bones) with there hands but do not break there hands, as well as seen the break boards and cinder blocks. Even though what they are punching can be harder than the fist if it moves or breaks the fist does not absorb 100% backlash force at once if the force is spread out to the point that it is below the level to break a hand your hand will not break. You also see this in the staged pro-wrestling matches where they hit each other with mettle chairs and trash cans even though the mettle is harder than the bones the give on the impact reduces damage to the performer.

Baically a hard that moves with impact does less damage to what hit it than a hard object that does not move.

There are many factors in play that determine if you break your hand when you punch something. How the impact was made(impacts on the pinky and its neighbor or more likely to break do to them floating), force of impact(if the punch did not have the force to break the point of impact it will not break them regardless of what it hits),protective gear(gloves, padding and other things that absorb/reduce force applied to the hand) and weather the object hit gives way (this reduces force applied to the hand or spreads the force out over time). I am sure there are probably more but those are the main factors as well.

I would thing that although a dragon in cat form is resistant to damage it is not necessarily hard to the touch. (its damage restance could be based of magic absorbing damaging force and not hardness.
(Besides I have punched a brick wall without breaking my hand, now I did not punch it as hard as I could with a power punch but you can punch a brick wall without braking your hand.)

Right. You're superman punching through brick walls with your hands.

In the real world it doesn't matter. If you punch a brick as hard as you can it's going to damage your hand. Yes I've taken marital arts too. Those are tricks and exhibits. Not real world examples. No martial artist is out there randomly punching through walls because he did it during a show for his brown belt.

More over the Dragon as a cat is still an MDC creature. It might have soft fur but if you try and kick it, (Or punch) It's the same thing as if you kicked or punched an MDC Tank. You can go on about how impacts are made and bla bla bla but it doesn't really matter. You go up and punch a tank full force as hard as you can, you're going to damage your hand. Same thing with the Dragon/cat. As it's got the same (If not more) MDC than the tank. Even if it's shaped like a cat.

I never said I punched through a brick wall I said I punched a brick wall. Slight difference in amount of force, it was not as hard as i could power punch but most punches in a fight are not thrown as hard as the fighter can throwing power punches as hard as you can is tireing because you put 100% in that punch. Granted it skinned my knuckles and hurt like heck but did not break my hand.

Your tank and punching "through" a brick wall are straw men. Those are items with sufficient resistance to movement to cause damaging backlash from impact. That is different from punching something that is knocked away by the force of the impact.

Think about it this way if I kick a bolder as hard as I can I could break my foot but if I kick a rock made of the same stuff as the bolder I am not likly to break my foot because it moves. I can kick a small rock and be in no risk of breaking my foot when I do so even if I kick it as hard as I can. (That is what we are taking about kicking a rock vs kicking a a bolder, a 10 pound mdc would be a rock, a 500 pound rock would be the bolder.)

**Back on topic- I would go with the it magically metamorphose into an adult at the set age. So i would fallow the book instead of spending time to make some elaborate age power table.(that in truth is doing the same things just with more steps.)

[Crow Splat]

@Pepsi Jedi: punching a 4 pound unbreakable object is likely to hurt but the object will probably just move. Make that object a couple of tons and the force of your punch is going to bounce right back at you. Similar principles to blacksmithing and anvils.
.

4lbs is a small cat. lol but still. That 4lbs object still has supernatural strength. Punching it isn't going to move it an inch. That dragon cat's gonna laugh at you as your hand breaks then rip off your leg with it's little catty paw.

You can play it however you would like. I take the viewpoint where PS has less effect on leverage than weight.

To give an example, two weight lifters can lift the same weight any which way you tell them to. One weighs 120 pounds and the other 350. Now if you walk up and shove both of these guys as hard as you can, the 120 pound guy will move backwards farther than the 350 pound guy every time.

Now if you were going to try and step on the cat and crush it, then yes, the dragon would laugh at you and eat your leg.

[Blue_Lion]

@Pepsi Jedi: punching a 4 pound unbreakable object is likely to hurt but the object will probably just move. Make that object a couple of tons and the force of your punch is going to bounce right back at you. Similar principles to blacksmithing and anvils.
.

4lbs is a small cat. lol but still. That 4lbs object still has supernatural strength. Punching it isn't going to move it an inch. That dragon cat's gonna laugh at you as your hand breaks then rip off your leg with it's little catty paw.

You can play it however you would like. I take the viewpoint where PS has less effect on leverage than weight.

To give an example, two weight lifters can lift the same weight any which way you tell them to. One weighs 120 pounds and the other 350. Now if you walk up and shove both of these guys as hard as you can, the 120 pound guy will move backwards farther than the 350 pound guy every time.

Now if you were going to try and step on the cat and crush it, then yes, the dragon would laugh at you and eat your leg.

Well if the 4 pound dragon is holding to something to anchor it then yes it will not move but if it standing on the ground it is gravity that holds it in place not its PS.

[Dog_O_War]

It's always been there. The "note" under the dragons metamorphasis power section says that "regardless of it's shape, a dragon is a dragon" and does not instill any of the attributes or abilities of the creature they morph into. it's expictly only the apperance of the creature and nothing has actually changed. logically that means weight has not been changed either.

I would like to address this.

Now, I haven't read the section (yet), but weight is neither an ability or an attribute, but does in-fact fall under appearance.

Logically then, if it appears human, it has a humans' weight.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pretty sure if I walk up and punch a brick even if it's not in a wall and the brick that I punch goes flying, my hands' still going to break. Same thing with the MDC cat.

The cat being moved by impact is the same principle as rolling with impact to reduce damage by moving with impact you reduce the force absorbed, this applies to both the object hit and the one hitting as there is a backlash of Resistance to movement. A cat with a mass of 10 pounds or less is going to be moved by force at a level below what it takes to break the knuckles on your index and middle finder. because once its resistance to movement is over come it moves with the impact, it is the same principle as rolling with impact.

The reason behind things like panels on a car designed to crumple is because during a impact if something gives way to the force it reduces the amount of energy transferred to other things involved in the impact.


I have seen a martial arts demonstration where they break bats(bats can be used to break bones) with there hands but do not break there hands, as well as seen the break boards and cinder blocks. Even though what they are punching can be harder than the fist if it moves or breaks the fist does not absorb 100% backlash force at once if the force is spread out to the point that it is below the level to break a hand your hand will not break. You also see this in the staged pro-wrestling matches where they hit each other with mettle chairs and trash cans even though the mettle is harder than the bones the give on the impact reduces damage to the performer.

Baically a hard that moves with impact does less damage to what hit it than a hard object that does not move.

There are many factors in play that determine if you break your hand when you punch something. How the impact was made(impacts on the pinky and its neighbor or more likely to break do to them floating), force of impact(if the punch did not have the force to break the point of impact it will not break them regardless of what it hits),protective gear(gloves, padding and other things that absorb/reduce force applied to the hand) and weather the object hit gives way (this reduces force applied to the hand or spreads the force out over time). I am sure there are probably more but those are the main factors as well.

I would thing that although a dragon in cat form is resistant to damage it is not necessarily hard to the touch. (its damage restance could be based of magic absorbing damaging force and not hardness.
(Besides I have punched a brick wall without breaking my hand, now I did not punch it as hard as I could with a power punch but you can punch a brick wall without braking your hand.)

Right. You're superman punching through brick walls with your hands.

In the real world it doesn't matter. If you punch a brick as hard as you can it's going to damage your hand. Yes I've taken marital arts too. Those are tricks and exhibits. Not real world examples. No martial artist is out there randomly punching through walls because he did it during a show for his brown belt.

More over the Dragon as a cat is still an MDC creature. It might have soft fur but if you try and kick it, (Or punch) It's the same thing as if you kicked or punched an MDC Tank. You can go on about how impacts are made and bla bla bla but it doesn't really matter. You go up and punch a tank full force as hard as you can, you're going to damage your hand. Same thing with the Dragon/cat. As it's got the same (If not more) MDC than the tank. Even if it's shaped like a cat.

I never said I punched through a brick wall I said I punched a brick wall. Slight difference in amount of force, it was not as hard as i could power punch but most punches in a fight are not thrown as hard as the fighter can throwing power punches as hard as you can is tireing because you put 100% in that punch. Granted it skinned my knuckles and hurt like heck but did not break my hand.

So now instead of 'Punching' a brick wall you gave the brick wall a tap with your fist. Still not the same thing. Yes if we're talking about hitting things we're talking about hitting them full force. Not half force or a quarter force etc.

Your tank and punching "through" a brick wall are straw men. Those are items with sufficient resistance to movement to cause damaging backlash from impact. That is different from punching something that is knocked away by the force of the impact.

But it's not. That Dragoncat has supernatural strength. You're not going to knock it away any more than you are a brick wall or a tank. Infact, very likely LESS. You've got a better chance at moving a tank punching it than you do moving a creature with supernatural strength that you punch.

Think about it this way if I kick a bolder as hard as I can I could break my foot but if I kick a rock made of the same stuff as the bolder I am not likly to break my foot because it moves.

Average house cat weight is 7.9 to 9.9 lbs. That's 8 to 10lbs. You kick a 10lbs rock with your foot, you're going to break your foot. The rock might move, but then the rock doesn't have supernatural strength holding it still. You're still going to break your foot. Kick a 10lbs plate of tank armor and your going to break your foot.

I can kick a small rock and be in no risk of breaking my foot when I do so even if I kick it as hard as I can. (That is what we are taking about kicking a rock vs kicking a a bolder, a 10 pound mdc would be a rock, a 500 pound rock would be the bolder.)

You're simply wrong. If you kick a 10lbs rock with your foot, you're going to break your foot. I assure you. (Again stipulating you're kicking full strength and not just tapping things with your toe).

[Pepsi Jedi]

@Pepsi Jedi: punching a 4 pound unbreakable object is likely to hurt but the object will probably just move. Make that object a couple of tons and the force of your punch is going to bounce right back at you. Similar principles to blacksmithing and anvils.
.

4lbs is a small cat. lol but still. That 4lbs object still has supernatural strength. Punching it isn't going to move it an inch. That dragon cat's gonna laugh at you as your hand breaks then rip off your leg with it's little catty paw.

You can play it however you would like. I take the viewpoint where PS has less effect on leverage than weight.

To give an example, two weight lifters can lift the same weight any which way you tell them to. One weighs 120 pounds and the other 350. Now if you walk up and shove both of these guys as hard as you can, the 120 pound guy will move backwards farther than the 350 pound guy every time.

Now if you were going to try and step on the cat and crush it, then yes, the dragon would laugh at you and eat your leg.

Neither of the weight lifters have supernatural strength. That's like saying "I walk up and shove the aircraft carrier, or I walk up and shove the battle ship. the battle ship moves further! Well no Because neither one of them moved.

The 'weight' of the cat isn't going to matter when your foot hits that super hard material. If it's an oz or two of it sure, it's like kicking a bullet or bit of steel, but if it's 10lbs of it, your foot is going to crunch when it impacts that MDC material at speed, and remember the mdc material in question (In this the cat) Has supernatual strength to put against yours, 'Not' to move.

[Pepsi Jedi]

@Pepsi Jedi: punching a 4 pound unbreakable object is likely to hurt but the object will probably just move. Make that object a couple of tons and the force of your punch is going to bounce right back at you. Similar principles to blacksmithing and anvils.
.

4lbs is a small cat. lol but still. That 4lbs object still has supernatural strength. Punching it isn't going to move it an inch. That dragon cat's gonna laugh at you as your hand breaks then rip off your leg with it's little catty paw.

You can play it however you would like. I take the viewpoint where PS has less effect on leverage than weight.

To give an example, two weight lifters can lift the same weight any which way you tell them to. One weighs 120 pounds and the other 350. Now if you walk up and shove both of these guys as hard as you can, the 120 pound guy will move backwards farther than the 350 pound guy every time.

Now if you were going to try and step on the cat and crush it, then yes, the dragon would laugh at you and eat your leg.

Well if the 4 pound dragon is holding to something to anchor it then yes it will not move but if it standing on the ground it is gravity that holds it in place not its PS.

So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

Same thing with the dragon. You can kick it all you want but your strength is piddly compared to it's.

[Dog_O_War]

So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

If you're talking real-life, there's no, "strength at resisting the kick", all there is is physics, which would see a tiny body flying backwards, dragged down by gravity.

If you're talking in-game, there is no such ability itemed as "strength at resisting the kick".

Same thing with the dragon. You can kick it all you want but your strength is piddly compared to it's.

Its strength has no factor in any way, shape or form in affecting physics, unless it's holding on to something, as Blue_Lion has correctly stated.

Otherwise, book and page number where it says differently. Hell, produce anything other than a hand-written note from your parent or guardian (because favoritism) that would support your argument.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

If you're talking real-life, there's no, "strength at resisting the kick", all there is is physics, which would see a tiny body flying backwards, dragged down by gravity.

If you're talking in-game, there is no such ability itemed as "strength at resisting the kick".

Same thing with the dragon. You can kick it all you want but your strength is piddly compared to it's.

Its strength has no factor in any way, shape or form in affecting physics, unless it's holding on to something, as Blue_Lion has correctly stated.

Otherwise, book and page number where it says differently. Hell, produce anything other than a hand-written note from your parent or guardian (because favoritism) that would support your argument.

LOL Trust me. there's more than gravity. I forget that some people have never actually been in a fight.

Yes if someone kicks you, you can resist flying backwards with your own strength. In effect you push forward to resist flying backwards. Other wise any time someone bumped into us in a mall or something we'd go flying away. Which I think we can all agree is silly. No you don't have to be holding onto the ground to do it.

[SpiritInterface]

I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

We interpret it to be the total amount of time in a 24 hour period the dragon can be transformed. At levels where their time limit exceeds 24 hours the need to rest 1 hour before changing forms. This is for hatchlings only since most adult dragons can maintain their transformation indefinitely.

[Prysus]

I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

We interpret it to be the total amount of time in a 24 hour period the dragon can be transformed. At levels where their time limit exceeds 24 hours the need to rest 1 hour before changing forms. This is for hatchlings only since most adult dragons can maintain their transformation indefinitely.

Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

[Blue_Lion]

So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

If you're talking real-life, there's no, "strength at resisting the kick", all there is is physics, which would see a tiny body flying backwards, dragged down by gravity.

If you're talking in-game, there is no such ability itemed as "strength at resisting the kick".

Same thing with the dragon. You can kick it all you want but your strength is piddly compared to it's.

Its strength has no factor in any way, shape or form in affecting physics, unless it's holding on to something, as Blue_Lion has correctly stated.

Otherwise, book and page number where it says differently. Hell, produce anything other than a hand-written note from your parent or guardian (because favoritism) that would support your argument.

LOL Trust me. there's more than gravity. I forget that some people have never actually been in a fight.

Yes if someone kicks you, you can resist flying backwards with your own strength. In effect you push forward to resist flying backwards. Other wise any time someone bumped into us in a mall or something we'd go flying away. Which I think we can all agree is silly. No you don't have to be holding onto the ground to do it.

(I have been in a fight and was a hand to hand instructor for the army.)
You are mistaking avoiding knock down with being thrown. What keeps you from falling when kicked or punched is how you maintain your balance, that is why you spread your feet in most combat stances. Normally a kick does not have the force to send a fighter fling as the backlash would do the same for the one kicking as well.(think about it this way if your punch/kick had the force to move some ones mass then an upwards punch would lift them off the ground regardless of how strong they are.) But does have the force to throw off a person balance. Balance keeps you upright.

What holds you in place is gravity and the friction with the ground. If the force of a impact accedes that even if you maintain balance and upright you will move with the impact.

With most people it easier to topple them by throwing there balance off than to strike with force to toss them backwards.

It would be like when a super strong super hero catches a moving train and is pushed back but can stay standing. Giving the size of a dragon cat with its strength it is unlikely to get knocked down but would be knocked back or thrown fairly easily.

**Edit--I tried to think of a time in a fight that I pushed against an attack but I could not think of any. The closes I can think of is tighting up my core to avoid getting the wind knock out of me. When hit I do not push against the blow but tend to rock or roll with it weather I want to or not. I do use some leg strength to stay up right and maintain balance but never actually pushed against an attack not even when I block, there is always some movement with the blow never against it. The closes I seen to some one pushing against a blow was some one running into a fist and he got knocked flat.

Pushing against a blow would be like getting ground pounded with your head on the ground. Very bad thing to have happen well at least for a person.

[Dog_O_War]

LOL Trust me. there's more than gravity. I forget that some people have never actually been in a fight.

Why would anyone trust you? You seem to believe in some ability not based in truth labelled, "strength in resisting the kick".

Yes if someone kicks you, you can resist flying backwards with your own strength.

I don't know if you actually read my post, but I did say that physics are involved, as opposed to "strength at resisting the kick". Like, if you brace yourself somehow, using your strength, similar to how Blue_Lion has stated previously, which you were arguing against - again, in favour of the ability you've coined as, "strength in resisting the kick".

In effect you push forward to resist flying backwards.

Gee, it's almost like some kind of physics are involved. Too bad it doesn't have a law governing it... I swear, Newton was supposed to make one regarding this.

Oh well, I guess we'll just call it, "strength at resisting the kick"

[Razzinold]

Ok everyone, I appreciate all the help with dragons (like I stated above I have no experience playing one or GMing one except on time I was Chiang Ku but I spent the whole time disguised as a human and it only lasted for like two or three sessions).

Can we please move passed the kicking the frigging Dragon/cat before a mod shuts this down ?
If the player has assumed the appearance of a cat and someone kicks it I will rule that they would go the distance a regular cat would (based on the attackers PS), unless they were digging in with their claws (because of SNPS would hold them in place) AND the person would break their foot because an SDC being just kicked an MDC being.

Unless of course the dragon is aware of the attack and uses it's SNPS to block/parry the attack.

Now that is settled to my liking and thanks to everyone's input that is how I will rule it.

I guess I will follow what the book has written, to make life easier for myself, and just refer to them as a hatchling and maintain the stats regardless of how old they are (until they hit 600) and I will base their level some where in between 1 and 10 - 11 (which is what I believe the book states your approximate level should be by the time you hit 600 years).

Can anyone suggest some books where I can find some cool dragon variants other than Conversion Book One and Dragons and Gods ?

One other thing, I know that siblings/off spring can recognize one another instantly even if they've never met, but is that only in Dragon form ?

Can a Dragon identify another Dragon when it's disguised as something else ? i.e. could a Great Horned Dragon identify a Chiang-Ku that is disguised as a human ?

[Blue_Lion]

Ok everyone, I appreciate all the help with dragons (like I stated above I have no experience playing one or GMing one except on time I was Chiang Ku but I spent the whole time disguised as a human and it only lasted for like two or three sessions).

Can we please move passed the kicking the frigging Dragon/cat before a mod shuts this down ?
If the player has assumed the appearance of a cat and someone kicks it I will rule that they would go the distance a regular cat would (based on the attackers PS), unless they were digging in with their claws (because of SNPS would hold them in place) AND the person would break their foot because an SDC being just kicked an MDC being.

Unless of course the dragon is aware of the attack and uses it's SNPS to block/parry the attack.

Now that is settled to my liking and thanks to everyone's input that is how I will rule it.

I guess I will follow what the book has written, to make life easier for myself, and just refer to them as a hatchling and maintain the stats regardless of how old they are (until they hit 600) and I will base their level some where in between 1 and 10 - 11 (which is what I believe the book states your approximate level should be by the time you hit 600 years).

Can anyone suggest some books where I can find some cool dragon variants other than Conversion Book One and Dragons and Gods ?

One other thing, I know that siblings/off spring can recognize one another instantly even if they've never met, but is that only in Dragon form ?

Can a Dragon identify another Dragon when it's disguised as something else ? i.e. could a Great Horned Dragon identify a Chiang-Ku that is disguised as a human ?

There is a dragon that appears in Psiscape and SOT line.
Not sure what books the chiang ku is in off the top of my head.
The rue dragons are fairly interesting especially the cats eye.