Warlock with more elements

[barna10]

I've always followed the guiding principle that NPCs are there to follow the rules and PCs are there to break them. In other words, if an NPC does it, the PCs can to.

I don't understand this idea that something is Ok for NPCs but not for PCs as if the author of a story, article, or book is somehow superior to the players and GM's playing the game. Sorry, but I don't suffer from hero worship. I appreciate what the writers have done, and it's a great foundation for what I use in my games, but none of it is written in stone and I'm 100% sure Kevin can't smite me from his armchair nor does he even have a clue how I use his product.

So, again for those that weren't paying attention or simply cannot read, IF you are going to allow more than two elements, how would you do it? Can I be more clear that I am not trying to argue canon?

[Nightmask]

Myself I think I'd make it a rare multi-class option, so you're basically a multi-class Warlock/Warlock but all your experience is halved as a result. This would also mean you could have someone multi-class for 2 elements even though they couldn't manage it as a single-class due to their stats. Yes this also means that they'd have a couple extra spells over the single-classed two-element Warlock BUT they'd be progressing at half the rate (so for the 'but they're getting something for nothing!' no they aren't, they're paying for that with the much slower advancement rate). So if they had sufficient stats for it they could have all four elements and gain spells/level as if they were a single-classed two-element warlock for said elements, while progressing at half the speed of a single-classed warlock.

[barna10]

I just re-acquired a copy of 1st edition PFRPG. Never read through it before and just read the Multiple O.C.C.s section...going to use those rules from now one. Using those makes this a moot discussion. If you haven't read those, I highly recommend it. The Multiple O.C.C. rules from 1st edition are intuitive and just plain better than anything published since.

[Library Ogre]

Only the Avatar can master all four elements.

and yet cant figure out lightning, steel, swamp and sand.

Korra did, IIRC, with both Metal and Bloodbending. I would not be surprised if Avatar Roku knew Lightning Bending.

[Zer0 Kay]

Only the Avatar can master all four elements.

and yet cant figure out lightning, steel, swamp and sand.

Korra did, IIRC, with both Metal and Bloodbending. I would not be surprised if Avatar Roku knew Lightning Bending.

Yeah but the avatar should learn ALL of them. I made a free flow magic system off that and did Earth Air Fire Water then:
earth + air = sand
earth + fire = lava
earth + water = swamp/tree
air + fire = lightning
air + water = ice
fire + water = steam

There are five modifiers damage, absorb/restrain, deflect/push, heal and range
Fire gets bonuses to damage and a penalty to healing
Water a bonus to healing and penalty to damage
Earth a bonus to absorb and a penalty to deflect
Air a bonus to deflect and penalty to absorb
The secondary elements have a lesser bonus to each attribute its "component primaries" get bonuses to and an even greater penalty to the "oppositional primaries".
If that makes any sense.
Figure it is generic enough to be used elsewhere as long as katas aren't incorporated The Avatar cant say that they came up with elemental magic, avatars or the elements. Most early cultures had a concept of elements the most famous are the Asian five and the Greek four and both had concepts of mysticism based on it as for the avatar the concept and word are based of the Hindu religion.

[Library Ogre]

Yeah but the avatar should learn ALL of them.

Given the length of time from the previous Convergence (10,000 years), I imagine every subform has been mastered by an avatar at some point or another... from sand bending to Sparky Sparky Boom Boom Man's style. Even if crazy-long lifetimes like Kyoshi are the norm (seriously, she was the Avatar for 230 years), you're still looking at a LOT of lifetimes.

[barna10]

What about the Avatar of Earth, Wind, & Fire?

[Library Ogre]

What about the Avatar of Earth, Wind, & Fire?

That one worships the Sun Goddess.

[eliakon]

Uh guys....
Can we take the OT discussion of the show to the appropriate thread and not hijack this one for it?
It is not only off topic, but any attempt to make it on topic would violate the no conversion policy.
The joke was funny the first time, but now it is just spamming the discussion.

[Zer0 Kay]

In that case the thread should be locked. The topic has been discussed and an answer given.

[eliakon]

In that case the thread should be locked. The topic has been discussed and an answer given.

There is still some discussion on if elements oppose.
Which is relevant since it would control the ability for anyone to be a quadralock.

There is also a discussion on if one could multi-class from warlock to warlock and thus get the desired effect via 'end run'

So...no I would say the thread is alive and well....it just needs the OT threadjacking taken to the proper place.
(Since one of the people active in the discussion is the OP I would say that if the OP doesn't feel the question is settled to their satisfaction....its not settled)

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Mad Golum, why does this example does not Break the RAW….
…The writers can break the rules for their NPCs while not breaking the rules for players.
…one example of NPC rule breaking does not make a pattern that players can use to twist the RAW out of it's intended meaning.
….The Island at the Edge of the Word book is a 1st ed game book and thus stands even further outside the 2nd ed rules…..snip

Stop twising my words. The mad Golum does not break the RAW from players. in other words players still have to follow the RAW. Which does not include being bonded to more then two elements.

Why Bring up a Grand Warlock as an example when talking about Warlocks. The way it sounds it is a whole another class. (Location?)


Let mea see I ALREAY POINTED OUT THE TEXT ABOUT OPPOING ELEMENTALS EARLIER EXIST AN YOU IGNORED IT AS IF IT DIDN'T EXIST. I also pointed out that what that meant was left up in the air when talking about warlocks. Sooo…QUIT HARPING ON SOMETHING I ALREADY SAID THEIR IS NO F'N TEXT ABOUT. So stop being the ass and you stop bringing it back up

Warning: Not acceptable behavior. Mack

**********************************
separate side-topic
priests: they are the closest thing to warlocks other the witches since all three have their power granted to them. This is beside the point that the priest conversation has moved away from the talk about warlocks. So your comments calling them a straw manage off topic please if you comment further make sure you are within the side conversation about priest.
007: This was an example about how a char can change sides without changing class. If you are not going to join the side conversation intelligently and not mock for not being the main topic then don't be an ass and start mocking it.

[Nightmask]

The Mad Golum, why does this example does not Break the RAW….
…The writers can break the rules for their NPCs while not breaking the rules for players.
…one example of NPC rule breaking does not make a pattern that players can use to twist the RAW out of it's intended meaning.
….The Island at the Edge of the Word book is a 1st ed game book and thus stands even further outside the 2nd ed rules…..snip

Stop twising my words. The mad Golum does not break the RAW from players. in other words players still have to follow the RAW. Which does not include being bonded to more then two elements.

Why Bring up a Grand Warlock as an example when talking about Warlocks. The way it sounds it is a whole another class. (Location?)


Let mea see I ALREAY POINTED OUT THE TEXT ABOUT OPPOING ELEMENTALS EARLIER EXIST AN YOU IGNORED IT AS IF IT DIDN'T EXIST. I also pointed out that what that meant was left up in the air when talking about warlocks. Sooo…QUIT HARPING ON SOMETHING I ALREADY SAID THEIR IS NO F'N TEXT ABOUT. So stop being the ass and you stop bringing it back up
**********************************
separate side-topic
priests: they are the closest thing to warlocks other the witches since all three have their power granted to them. This is beside the point that the priest conversation has moved away from the talk about warlocks. So your comments calling them a straw manage off topic please if you comment further make sure you are within the side conversation about priest.
007: This was an example about how a char can change sides without changing class. If you are not going to join the side conversation intelligently and not mock for not being the main topic then don't be an ass and start mocking it.

Palladium doesn't have opposing element rules and so far as I know never has, there is no such thing as 'you can't be an air/earth warlock' for example (indeed there are spells in both schools that actually work best together). If someone wants to be a water/fire Warlock it's totally possible via the rules because there aren't any opposing elements, while it's a cornerstone of things for AD&D it's non-existent in Palladium.

[barna10]

Why lock the thread? Is there a resource shortage?
And yes, we get back to, IF you were going to allow more than two elements, what requirements would you set?

[eliakon]

The Mad Golum, why does this example does not Break the RAW….
…The writers can break the rules for their NPCs while not breaking the rules for players.
…one example of NPC rule breaking does not make a pattern that players can use to twist the RAW out of it's intended meaning.
….The Island at the Edge of the Word book is a 1st ed game book and thus stands even further outside the 2nd ed rules…..snip

Stop twising my words. The mad Golum does not break the RAW from players. in other words players still have to follow the RAW. Which does not include being bonded to more then two elements.

Why Bring up a Grand Warlock as an example when talking about Warlocks. The way it sounds it is a whole another class. (Location?)
Avaxa AND The Mad Warlock are BOTH masters of all four elements. This means that two different people, in two different books have done it...its starting to look more like a trend than some one off exception.
Since the RAW does not say that you can not be bonded to more than two elements.
And since the RAW does not say that Warlocks are one of the classes that can not change classes
And since we have two examples here of people changing from warlock to warlock (never mind the dozens of examples in the books of people who change into or out of Warlock to other stuff)
The conclusion is that the RAW allows one to bond to multiple elements, just not more than two at one time, normally achieved by changing class. (which yes, will require the 'permission' of the Elements (the GM)...but it is legal under the rules and thus does not require a house rule, technically just XP)

Grand Warlock was not a class. It was a 'perk or title' claimed by the most powerful of warlocks...unless we are literally positing that the OP is correct and you can make a warlock with all four elements at once.
He is in the adventure "Avaxa's Gate" Adventures in the Northern Wilderness start on page 54.
The ring is only worn by warlocks
He can summon elementals (which only warlocks can do)
He can summon elementals of all four elements
The inescapable conclusion is that he is a warlock linked to all four elements, again.

Let mea see I ALREAY POINTED OUT THE TEXT ABOUT OPPOING ELEMENTALS EARLIER EXIST AN YOU IGNORED IT AS IF IT DIDN'T EXIST. I also pointed out that what that meant was left up in the air when talking about warlocks. Sooo…QUIT HARPING ON SOMETHING I ALREADY SAID THEIR IS NO F'N TEXT ABOUT. So stop being the ass and you stop bringing it back up

And you keep bringing it up in your posts.
It is not 'harping' on something to reply to your own words. Seriously Are you seriously saying that you can make claims, ask for evidence and argue stances and that if people reply it is insulting and you get to swear at them?

your last post you literally ask for examples of an opposing warlock.
I gave it. (I had already given it but never mind)
And the point of my statement stands. How can a canon character break a rule that doesn't exist?
We have a canon rule that says "you may pick two elements" (no restirictions, no limits) and a fluff text that says "earth and air oppose"....It doesn't say that they can not be taken as life signs.....so My point was, and is. That the fluff in question isn't a rule, and never has been a rule. Its a house rule. As a house rule it doesn't mean that only NPCs get to 'break it' any more than my house rules on super powers mean that all the characters with those super powers are now 'illegal'.

**********************************

separate side-topic
priests: they are the closest thing to warlocks other the witches since all three have their power granted to them. This is beside the point that the priest conversation has moved away from the talk about warlocks. So your comments calling them a straw manage off topic please if you comment further make sure you are within the side conversation about priest.
007: This was an example about how a char can change sides without changing class. If you are not going to join the side conversation intelligently and not mock for not being the main topic then don't be an ass and start mocking it.

Since I feel it is a strawman, that it is an attempt to twist things that are not supported we can drop it.
Note that that does not give you the right to be insulting, nor to be vulgar.
Calling a strawman a strawman is not mocking, regardless of your desires.

[eliakon]

Why lock the thread? Is there a resource shortage?
And yes, we get back to, IF you were going to allow more than two elements, what requirements would you set?

I like the idea of an XP increase.
My thoughts.....
What about this....
Normal Warlocks get one element and 3 spells.
for each +1000xp per tier (or something, I just pulled a number out of thin air and Turtles in Avalon) and assuming you meet the stats (IQ/ME 12/14 18/18 24/24) you can add one element, and get +1 spell per level. So +1 tier you have 2 elements and 4 spells. +2 tier you have 3 elements and 5 spells, and so on. And yes, you can select an element twice if you want to just specialize (or you have insanely good stats. Each additional tier is +6 IQ and +4 ME from the last one)
....your power goes up...but as your understanding widens the speed at which you understand slows down.

YES I know this will require rewriting all the existing warlocks....so what? If we are changing utterly the abilities offered I would be doing that anyway.

[Axelmania]

Korra did, IIRC, with both Metal and Bloodbending. I would not be surprised if Avatar Roku knew Lightning Bending.

I only watched Air/Spirits, guessing this happened in Change/Balance or else I forgot it.

Given the length of time from the previous Convergence (10,000 years), I imagine every subform has been mastered by an avatar at some point or another...

The higher odds from multiple lives are sort of balanced out by the time needed to master 3 extra elements compared to other benders PLUS then having the duties of protecting the world and balancing it. I think most Avatars actually wouldn't have any spare time to dedicate to this sort of thing since they'd be focusing on using the basic bending to save the world.

Blood/Metal and so forth seem like specializations done by people fixed to a location with spare time to focus on excelling over others.

players still have to follow the RAW. Which does not include being bonded to more then two elements.

The rules prevent the OCC from letting you bond to more than 2, not the character, the character can select the Warlock OCC additional times and choose different combinations.

Let mea see I ALREAY POINTED OUT THE TEXT ABOUT OPPOING ELEMENTALS EARLIER EXIST AN YOU IGNORED IT AS IF IT DIDN'T EXIST. I also pointed out that what that meant was left up in the air when talking about warlocks. Sooo…QUIT HARPING ON SOMETHING I ALREADY SAID THEIR IS NO F'N TEXT ABOUT. So stop being the ass and you stop bringing it back up

Opposing elements create difficulties for Fusionists, but it's not clear they create difficulties for Warlocks.

priests: they are the closest thing to warlocks other the witches since all three have their power granted to them. This is beside the point that the priest conversation has moved away from the talk about warlocks.

They do seem pretty close to warlocks, but I don't think either class is prevented from multiple priesthoods or warlockdoms.

[barna10]

Why lock the thread? Is there a resource shortage?
And yes, we get back to, IF you were going to allow more than two elements, what requirements would you set?

I like the idea of an XP increase.
My thoughts.....
What about this....
Normal Warlocks get one element and 3 spells.
for each +1000xp per tier (or something, I just pulled a number out of thin air and Turtles in Avalon) and assuming you meet the stats (IQ/ME 12/14 18/18 24/24) you can add one element, and get +1 spell per level. So +1 tier you have 2 elements and 4 spells. +2 tier you have 3 elements and 5 spells, and so on. And yes, you can select an element twice if you want to just specialize (or you have insanely good stats. Each additional tier is +6 IQ and +4 ME from the last one)
....your power goes up...but as your understanding widens the speed at which you understand slows down.

YES I know this will require rewriting all the existing warlocks....so what? If we are changing utterly the abilities offered I would be doing that anyway.

I really don't think it's THAT much of an increase in power. They still can only summon 1 elemental at a time, right? Also, even if you give them 4 spells per level there are plenty of classes that get 4 spells per level (Chaos Mage, Old Believer, etc.) I really don't think it's worth 4K+ XP to get to second level...that's more than a freaking Dragon or Godling (who can get all 4 elements and more...). I might raise it +100xp at first level for each additional (maybe take it to the Stonemaster table) and require the higher attributes.

[barna10]

They do seem pretty close to warlocks, but I don't think either class is prevented from multiple priesthoods or warlockdoms.

Or from a priest becoming a Warlock...

[eliakon]

Why lock the thread? Is there a resource shortage?
And yes, we get back to, IF you were going to allow more than two elements, what requirements would you set?

I like the idea of an XP increase.
My thoughts.....
What about this....
Normal Warlocks get one element and 3 spells.
for each +1000xp per tier (or something, I just pulled a number out of thin air and Turtles in Avalon) and assuming you meet the stats (IQ/ME 12/14 18/18 24/24) you can add one element, and get +1 spell per level. So +1 tier you have 2 elements and 4 spells. +2 tier you have 3 elements and 5 spells, and so on. And yes, you can select an element twice if you want to just specialize (or you have insanely good stats. Each additional tier is +6 IQ and +4 ME from the last one)
....your power goes up...but as your understanding widens the speed at which you understand slows down.

YES I know this will require rewriting all the existing warlocks....so what? If we are changing utterly the abilities offered I would be doing that anyway.

I really don't think it's THAT much of an increase in power. They still can only summon 1 elemental at a time, right? Also, even if you give them 4 spells per level there are plenty of classes that get 4 spells per level (Chaos Mage, Old Believer, etc.) I really don't think it's worth 4K+ XP to get to second level...that's more than a freaking Dragon or Godling (who can get all 4 elements and more...). I might raise it +100xp at first level for each additional (maybe take it to the Stonemaster table) and require the higher attributes.

One issue with the godling question.....
Is the Godling allowed to be a dual elemental warlock or not?
There are good arguments for both sides (Including a FAQ saying no....but the FAQ is notoriously inconsistent so....)

[Library Ogre]

If I were to allow three or four elements, I would increase the attribute requirements, and probably limit them to 3 spells per level, total (and likely bump 2 element warlocks up to a single spell per level from each element, and 1 from either). So, a 3 element warlock would get 1 spell from each element, and a 4 element warlock would get 3... with one element being fallow each level, and likely with the requirement that a different one be fallow on subsequent levels (so the first level might have fire, water, air, the second would have to choose something from earth, but could have fire, water, or air as the other two).

[barna10]

If I were to allow three or four elements, I would increase the attribute requirements, and probably limit them to 3 spells per level, total (and likely bump 2 element warlocks up to a single spell per level from each element, and 1 from either). So, a 3 element warlock would get 1 spell from each element, and a 4 element warlock would get 3... with one element being fallow each level, and likely with the requirement that a different one be fallow on subsequent levels (so the first level might have fire, water, air, the second would have to choose something from earth, but could have fire, water, or air as the other two).

Not bad, not bad at all..especially the bump to 2 elements.

[Axelmania]

Wouldn't a Demigod also be able to do 4 elements simultaneously since they could select dual warlock as OCC and then dual warlock as godling power?

[barna10]

Wouldn't a Demigod also be able to do 4 elements simultaneously since they could select dual warlock as OCC and then dual warlock as godling power?

Yes

[Nightmask]

If I were to allow three or four elements, I would increase the attribute requirements, and probably limit them to 3 spells per level, total (and likely bump 2 element warlocks up to a single spell per level from each element, and 1 from either). So, a 3 element warlock would get 1 spell from each element, and a 4 element warlock would get 3... with one element being fallow each level, and likely with the requirement that a different one be fallow on subsequent levels (so the first level might have fire, water, air, the second would have to choose something from earth, but could have fire, water, or air as the other two).

Now see that would be wrong, they should get at least one spell for every element they have access to even if it's all four. Given what the attribute requirements likely would be like to even qualify and what they're sacrificing to have access to all four elements they should always get a minimum of one spell for each element per level.

[eliakon]

Wouldn't a Demigod also be able to do 4 elements simultaneously since they could select dual warlock as OCC and then dual warlock as godling power?

Maybe. Like I said, it depends on how one interprets the book.
There is a pretty solid split between the camp that feels that gift of magic only allows one to pick one element and the camp that feels the the gift of magic would allow you to pick two.
If your in the two camp, then yes.
If your in the one camp, then you can only get 3 elements as a demigod, or 2 as godling.

[Library Ogre]

If I were to allow three or four elements, I would increase the attribute requirements, and probably limit them to 3 spells per level, total (and likely bump 2 element warlocks up to a single spell per level from each element, and 1 from either). So, a 3 element warlock would get 1 spell from each element, and a 4 element warlock would get 3... with one element being fallow each level, and likely with the requirement that a different one be fallow on subsequent levels (so the first level might have fire, water, air, the second would have to choose something from earth, but could have fire, water, or air as the other two).

Now see that would be wrong, they should get at least one spell for every element they have access to even if it's all four. Given what the attribute requirements likely would be like to even qualify and what they're sacrificing to have access to all four elements they should always get a minimum of one spell for each element per level.

While I can certainly see that argument, I set it up that way largely to avoid the charge that they're overpowering; they're already getting 4 sets of elemental abilities and the option to summon any kind of elemental... limiting them to 3 spells per level, one of each of 3 elements, is hardly a crippling option, or one that terribly unbalances them.

I wouldn't have a problem with a GM saying that they get 4 spells per level, but I don't think it's necessary, and I think it's a bit unfair to single-element warlocks.

And, yes, a Demigod or Godling could easily be a quad-element warlock, but that's a slightly different case... they have access to 4 elements not because they are a warlock with 4 elements, but because they are a deity whose natural inclination is a Warlock, and whose profession is warlock... they're kind of like people who roll random psionics for a Mind Mage, on top of their usual PCC powers, but less cheaty.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So an assertion that a char can be both a PoL and a PoD at the same time is a bunch of bull. This is basic theology people. A person can not serve two diametrically opposed masters.

Yes they can, deities of different alignments are not inherently opposed, sometimes they work together. Dragonwright is a good example of that, you have an evil dragon and a good dragon.

❖Your example does not support the thesis that a priest can be both PoL and PoD.
❖"not inherently opposed" is an interesting phrasing….for it neatly side-steps in to not responding to what was you quoted. Now try responding to what you quoted, about trying to serve two inherently opposed masters.

◆That the Dragonwright pantheon has both good and evil gods in it just makes it like every-other pantheon.
-----------------------

players still have to follow the RAW. Which does not include being bonded to more then two elements.

The rules prevent the OCC from letting you bond to more than 2, not the character, the character can select the Warlock OCC additional times and choose different combinations.

To use the changing class rules the char has to actually change their class. Not just word play about doing so to meet game mechanics about changing their class. Yes, just saying they 'change their class from warlock to warlock' does not cut the mustard. They have to 'change their class to something other then what they already are.'
------------------
As it has been pointed out before, the only way for a PC to have access to all four elementals is to be related to a god. Since the rules for deific relations are not the same as for mortal PCs, the deific PC RAW is just the RAW for Demigod and Godling PCs.

[barna10]

players still have to follow the RAW. Which does not include being bonded to more then two elements.

The rules prevent the OCC from letting you bond to more than 2, not the character, the character can select the Warlock OCC additional times and choose different combinations.

To use the changing class rules the char has to actually change their class. Not just word play about doing so to meet game mechanics about changing their class. Yes, just saying they 'change their class from warlock to warlock' does not cut the mustard. They have to 'change their class to something other then what they already are.'
------------------
As it has been pointed out before, the only way for a PC to have access to all four elementals is to be related to a god. Since the rules for deific relations are not the same as for mortal PCs, the deific PC RAW is just the RAW for Demigod and Godling PCs.

Interesting opinion, unless of course you have a reference for your idea that "To use the changing class rules the char has to actually change their class", because the RAW don't support your claim. Also, the Warlock "class" is actually a collection of many classes: Air Warlock, Earth Warlock, etc. So, even if the RAW said what you want them to say, an argument could still be made that switching from one type of Warlock to another is technically "changing class".

Also, your second claim is false since many of us have presented a reference, the Mad Golem, that has access to all four elements and is in no way related to a god. Yes, you can claim all you want that it's an NPC and somehow special rules apply to NPCs that don't apply to PCs, but this is an attribute of your play style and is not a hard-n-fast rule that everyone MUST follow.

[Damian Magecraft]

I saw an old post about a Warlock having more than 2 elements. It used as a reference the Mad Golem from Island at the edge of the World.

I like the idea. I think it should be possible.

…..snip

If you remember that the elements are 'in opposition' to each other in pairs. (water vs fire and earth vs air) You come up with "No" the maximum number of elements a warlock can have is two.
Yes, KS did a poor job writing the warlock class by leaving this bit out of the class text. However, he did remember it for the Fusionist class.
Yes, this makes trouble for those people who have not actually learned anything about the classical elements outside of looking things up in the PB game books.

The only way I would let any char have three or all four elements would be if they were a Deity or a godling.

Yes, to those that close their eyes to that the warlocks get their powers from the elementals, the rules seam to allow the changing of the char's class from warlock to warlock to get access to the other two elements.

you keep making this claim... cite book and page number to support it.

[Damian Magecraft]

If I were to allow three or four elements, I would increase the attribute requirements, and probably limit them to 3 spells per level, total (and likely bump 2 element warlocks up to a single spell per level from each element, and 1 from either). So, a 3 element warlock would get 1 spell from each element, and a 4 element warlock would get 3... with one element being fallow each level, and likely with the requirement that a different one be fallow on subsequent levels (so the first level might have fire, water, air, the second would have to choose something from earth, but could have fire, water, or air as the other two).

Now see that would be wrong, they should get at least one spell for every element they have access to even if it's all four. Given what the attribute requirements likely would be like to even qualify and what they're sacrificing to have access to all four elements they should always get a minimum of one spell for each element per level.

While I can certainly see that argument, I set it up that way largely to avoid the charge that they're overpowering; they're already getting 4 sets of elemental abilities and the option to summon any kind of elemental... limiting them to 3 spells per level, one of each of 3 elements, is hardly a crippling option, or one that terribly unbalances them.

I wouldn't have a problem with a GM saying that they get 4 spells per level, but I don't think it's necessary, and I think it's a bit unfair to single-element warlocks.

And, yes, a Demigod or Godling could easily be a quad-element warlock, but that's a slightly different case... they have access to 4 elements not because they are a warlock with 4 elements, but because they are a deity whose natural inclination is a Warlock, and whose profession is warlock... they're kind of like people who roll random psionics for a Mind Mage, on top of their usual PCC powers, but less cheaty.

in my games I just made it a blanket 4 spells regardless of number elements (and used the extrapolated stat requirements for 3 and 4 element 'locks).

[drewkitty ~..~]

I saw an old post about a Warlock having more than 2 elements. It used as a reference the Mad Golem from Island at the edge of the World.

I like the idea. I think it should be possible.

…..snip

If you remember that the elements are 'in opposition' to each other in pairs. (water vs fire and earth vs air) You come up with "No" the maximum number of elements a warlock can have is two.
Yes, KS did a poor job writing the warlock class by leaving this bit out of the class text. However, he did remember it for the Fusionist class.
Yes, this makes trouble for those people who have not actually learned anything about the classical elements outside of looking things up in the PB game books.

The only way I would let any char have three or all four elements would be if they were a Deity or a godling.

Yes, to those that close their eyes to that the warlocks get their powers from the elementals, the rules seam to allow the changing of the char's class from warlock to warlock to get access to the other two elements.

you keep making this claim... cite book and page number to support it.

Obviusly you had not read the topic through before posting. Otherwise you would of known this is a settled matter and will not be discussed further. If you want to know how it was settled, read the topic fully.

[barna10]

I saw an old post about a Warlock having more than 2 elements. It used as a reference the Mad Golem from Island at the edge of the World.

I like the idea. I think it should be possible.

…..snip

If you remember that the elements are 'in opposition' to each other in pairs. (water vs fire and earth vs air) You come up with "No" the maximum number of elements a warlock can have is two.
Yes, KS did a poor job writing the warlock class by leaving this bit out of the class text. However, he did remember it for the Fusionist class.
Yes, this makes trouble for those people who have not actually learned anything about the classical elements outside of looking things up in the PB game books.

The only way I would let any char have three or all four elements would be if they were a Deity or a godling.

Yes, to those that close their eyes to that the warlocks get their powers from the elementals, the rules seam to allow the changing of the char's class from warlock to warlock to get access to the other two elements.

you keep making this claim... cite book and page number to support it.

Obviusly you had not read the topic through before posting. Otherwise you would of known this is a settled matter and will not be discussed further. If you want to know how it was settled, read the topic fully.

An incorrect statement. You never provided a reference.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I saw an old post about a Warlock having more than 2 elements. It used as a reference the Mad Golem from Island at the edge of the World.

I like the idea. I think it should be possible.

…..snip

If you remember that the elements are 'in opposition' to each other in pairs. (water vs fire and earth vs air) You come up with "No" the maximum number of elements a warlock can have is two.
Yes, KS did a poor job writing the warlock class by leaving this bit out of the class text. However, he did remember it for the Fusionist class.
Yes, this makes trouble for those people who have not actually learned anything about the classical elements outside of looking things up in the PB game books.

The only way I would let any char have three or all four elements would be if they were a Deity or a godling.

Yes, to those that close their eyes to that the warlocks get their powers from the elementals, the rules seam to allow the changing of the char's class from warlock to warlock to get access to the other two elements.

you keep making this claim... cite book and page number to support it.

Obviously you had not read the topic through before posting. Otherwise you would of known this is a settled matter and will not be discussed further. If you want to know how it was settled, read the topic fully.

An incorrect statement. You never provided a reference.

Obviously you have not read this topic completely. Otherwise you would of known there was a citation given and this is a settled matter and will not be discussed further. If you want to know how it was settled, read the topic fully.

[barna10]

Obviously you have not read this topic completely. Otherwise you would of known there was a citation given and this is a settled matter and will not be discussed further. If you want to know how it was settled, read the topic fully.

Sorry, no. Please reread. When doing so you will notice the only reference you provided was a light reference to the Fusionist text, which by definition refers the to Fusionist, not the Warlock, and not to the Elements in general. Please provide a reference that states there is some sort of opposition between the elements themselves. I did provide references to text that explicitly states there is no opposition or animosity between the elementals, and also that they never fight each other. You have yet to refute that.

The only "settled" part of this thread is there are many people that want to constructively discuss ways in which a Warlock could get access to more than 2 elements. Others are free to offer their opinions but as soon as they want to claim facts, they need actual references to support them, such as a claim of opposition between the elements which has yet to be referenced except in regards to the Fusionist flavor text. EDIT: The Fusionist text actually uses the word "conflict" not "oppose". It states they combine "two conflicting forces of nature". This is not the same as saying the elements are in opposition. The difference is subtle, but different enough to not be identical. For instance, two factions of the same side can be in conflict without being in opposition of each other.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Citation was given as was requested, and it covers my current position. That you don't accept the citation as valid is not my problem. That you don't accept that I change my stance to What the text says is not my problem.
Besides that, everyone was asked to stop baiting me on this specific topic. Then you DM bring up an abandoned opinion as the point of your comment.

[Damian Magecraft]

The Citation was given as was requested. That you don't accept the citation as valid is not my problem. That you don't accept the compromise position I gave is not my problem.
Besides that everyone was asked to stop baiting me on this specific topic by YOU bringing it back up.

remember these words the next time you disagree with the book.

[eliakon]

Okay, so we can pretty much all agree that no one other than Drewkitty feels that the text in question supports a claim of opposing elements.
Cool that's fine.
We can assume that no one is going to argue that point then. Drew agrees that he is not going to argue that F/W and E/A are banned except under his interpretation, which he has said he no longer wants to discuss, and we agree to move one.
Groovy we all move on.
Seems simple enough.

Right now I am thinking that any attempt to make a 3 or 4 element version of the warlock though is going to require a rewrite of the entire class.
Why? Because the basic assumptions of the class are such that it is built around the 1/2 choice. Trading off some things for other things if your a single element vs being a dual element. That's cool.....but those choices get thrown out of whack when you bring multiple elements into it.

[barna10]

Right now I am thinking that any attempt to make a 3 or 4 element version of the warlock though is going to require a rewrite of the entire class.
Why? Because the basic assumptions of the class are such that it is built around the 1/2 choice. Trading off some things for other things if your a single element vs being a dual element. That's cool.....but those choices get thrown out of whack when you bring multiple elements into it.

Which is absolutely fine by me as I think the class itself sucks. The whole aspect of the bond with the Elemental makes no sense to me (the Elemental asks for nothing, is ambivalent, and supposedly doesn't care about humans).

The Fusionist is much better, IMO. The Fusionist gets power directly from nature.Strangely enough, the casting cost for Fusionist spells are the same as Warlocks...without the bond to an Elemental force...

I'd rather just do away with the Warlock class and open-up the spells to other casters, or rework the class to remove the Elemental Lords / masters completely and simply make them mages that specialize in wielding elemental forces.

[eliakon]

I have long wondered if it would be possible to make the learning fractional....
So that if your a single elemental warlock you know all spells of your element at each level. If your a dual warlock you know half the spells.
This would IMHO go a long way to boosting the versatility of Warlocks, and make the choice a much more meaningful one.
Under this a trilock would have a third of the spells of each element, and a quad lock would have 1/4 of the spells.
My personal theory would be that all multi elemental warlocks get a flat two spells total each level, starting at level 10 to 'fill in the gaps' or something.

No I have not playtested this, it is purely a musing on one way to rewrite the class. I love the idea of the Warlock....but I just don't like the implementation of it.

[Damian Magecraft]

I have long wondered if it would be possible to make the learning fractional....
So that if your a single elemental warlock you know all spells of your element at each level. If your a dual warlock you know half the spells.
This would IMHO go a long way to boosting the versatility of Warlocks, and make the choice a much more meaningful one.
Under this a trilock would have a third of the spells of each element, and a quad lock would have 1/4 of the spells.
My personal theory would be that all multi elemental warlocks get a flat two spells total each level, starting at level 10 to 'fill in the gaps' or something.

No I have not playtested this, it is purely a musing on one way to rewrite the class. I love the idea of the Warlock....but I just don't like the implementation of it.

interestingly enough...
in 1st ed warlock did get access to all spells of a given level (they did not have the special elemental powers though iirc)

[barna10]

I have long wondered if it would be possible to make the learning fractional....
So that if your a single elemental warlock you know all spells of your element at each level. If your a dual warlock you know half the spells.
This would IMHO go a long way to boosting the versatility of Warlocks, and make the choice a much more meaningful one.
Under this a trilock would have a third of the spells of each element, and a quad lock would have 1/4 of the spells.
My personal theory would be that all multi elemental warlocks get a flat two spells total each level, starting at level 10 to 'fill in the gaps' or something.

No I have not playtested this, it is purely a musing on one way to rewrite the class. I love the idea of the Warlock....but I just don't like the implementation of it.

interestingly enough...
in 1st ed warlock did get access to all spells of a given level (they did not have the special elemental powers though iirc)

Sounds good to me

[drewkitty ~..~]

...
We can assume that no one is going to argue that point then. Drew agrees that he is not going to argue that F/W and E/A are banned except under his interpretation, which he has said he no longer wants to discuss, and we agree to move one.
Groovy we all move on.
Seems simple enough.
….

I didn't say that 'except under my interpretation.' I changed my stance on this to what the texts say. However, the rest of 'I'm not going to discuss it anymore is true'.

I only responded to this is because something said about what I said was incorrect.

[Lukterran]

There is another way to have a warlock be aligned to all four elements like a Grand Warlock. However to do it but it requires someone pretty evil. They have to be a Warlock and a high level Summoner. You also need the help of a Diabolist and an 8th lvl or higher Necromancer with the correct collection of spells and need to have the Clone spell from the Yin-Sloth jungle book.

[Nightmask]

Right now I am thinking that any attempt to make a 3 or 4 element version of the warlock though is going to require a rewrite of the entire class.
Why? Because the basic assumptions of the class are such that it is built around the 1/2 choice. Trading off some things for other things if your a single element vs being a dual element. That's cool.....but those choices get thrown out of whack when you bring multiple elements into it.

Which is absolutely fine by me as I think the class itself sucks. The whole aspect of the bond with the Elemental makes no sense to me (the Elemental asks for nothing, is ambivalent, and supposedly doesn't care about humans).

The Fusionist is much better, IMO. The Fusionist gets power directly from nature.Strangely enough, the casting cost for Fusionist spells are the same as Warlocks...without the bond to an Elemental force...

I'd rather just do away with the Warlock class and open-up the spells to other casters, or rework the class to remove the Elemental Lords / masters completely and simply make them mages that specialize in wielding elemental forces.

Well just because we aren't told of any benefits to the Elemental Lords in empowering Warlocks doesn't mean there isn't one, even if it's just that they're basically empowering non-Elementals that in some metaphysical fashion are attuned to them so that they're aiding what to them is one of their kin.

[Library Ogre]

Which is absolutely fine by me as I think the class itself sucks. The whole aspect of the bond with the Elemental makes no sense to me (the Elemental asks for nothing, is ambivalent, and supposedly doesn't care about humans).

I think the relational language used in discussing it is telling; warlocks are "Little Brothers" to elementals. My take is that warlocks have basically an elemental essence fragment in their souls... sort of like an elemental version of a witch, only instead of a pact, it's an innate characteristic of the warlock. You might find other such people in the world aligned with other things, but the elementals are the most common and well known. This elemental fragment is part of what creates the pact of brotherhood between warlocks... a part of their soul recognizes that the other warlock is kin to them.

[Axelmania]

❖Your example does not support the thesis that a priest can be both PoL and PoD.

It counters your thesis that you can't serve 2 diametrically opposed masters, which I took as meaning 'good and evil' or something along those lines, which is roughly the distinction between a priest of light and a priest of dark, although someone anarchist-aligned can be either of those.

❖"not inherently opposed" is an interesting phrasing….for it neatly side-steps in to not responding to what was you quoted. Now try responding to what you quoted, about trying to serve two inherently opposed masters.

Let's backtrack and have you explain why you think one would need to serve 2 inherently opposed masters to be a priest of light and a priest of dark. Anarchist priests of light can serve good gods, anarchist priests of darkness can serve evil gods.

Good and evil gods are not inherently opposed because they often co-operate as allies or run a pantheon together.

Thoth is Unprincipled (the good side of selfish) and considers the evil god Anhur a friend.

I don't understand what you think would stop a Priest of Light for Thoth who starts as selfish (say, Anarchist) also deciding to become a Priest of Darkness for Anhur, if the gods are in the same pantheon and friends with each other. I think it would only become an issue if the gods came into conflict. Priests usually drum up worship for the whole pantheon from their worshippers anyway.

To use the changing class rules the char has to actually change their class. Not just word play about doing so to meet game mechanics about changing their class. Yes, just saying they 'change their class from warlock to warlock' does not cut the mustard. They have to 'change their class to something other then what they already are.'

Titles like "Earth Warlock" and "Fire Warlock" as seen numerous times under NPC labels for OCC have effectively split it in this sense.

[SpiritInterface]

The Avatar and Benders in general are NOT warlocks !!! Benders are Martial Artist with control elemental force (air, earth, fire, water) as part of their Chi/Mystical powers. The Avatar is just a extra special version.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Could we stop making reference to a animated tv show? That talk belongs in the "Gamers Who Like More Than Just Games" Forum.

Or maybe the N&S/MC forum.

[barna10]

Could we stop making reference to a animated tv show? That talk belongs in the "Gamers Who Like More Than Just Games" Forum.

Or maybe the N&S/MC forum.

No. Sorry, most of us don't live in a "Palladium is the only thing" vacuum. You are free to ignore this thread.