Dragons

[Razzinold]

Chiang-Ku first appeared in New England (I believe) and I know they are in Dragons and Gods.
Thanks for the tip on Psyscape and SOT.

wrote:

wrote:
I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

We interpret it to be the total amount of time in a 24 hour period the dragon can be transformed. At levels where their time limit exceeds 24 hours the need to rest 1 hour before changing forms. This is for hatchlings only since most adult dragons can maintain their transformation indefinitely.

Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

48 hours is for an adult dragon, it's 2 hours per level of experience for hatchlings. I guess they could have their 2 hours, duck out of site behind a bush, tree, building change and then instantly change back for another two hours.

If I adopted the above mentioned strategy that the means the character could simply change their eye colour, skin pigmentation, length of hair every hour and fifty minutes and never have to go in Dragon form again.

[Glistam]

I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

We interpret it to be the total amount of time in a 24 hour period the dragon can be transformed. At levels where their time limit exceeds 24 hours the need to rest 1 hour before changing forms. This is for hatchlings only since most adult dragons can maintain their transformation indefinitely.

Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

Thank you. I've seen that rule, and it makes no sense to me so I disregard it.

[Glistam]

Chiang-Ku first appeared in New England (I believe) and I know they are in Dragons and Gods.
Thanks for the tip on Psyscape and SOT.

wrote:

wrote:
I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

We interpret it to be the total amount of time in a 24 hour period the dragon can be transformed. At levels where their time limit exceeds 24 hours the need to rest 1 hour before changing forms. This is for hatchlings only since most adult dragons can maintain their transformation indefinitely.

Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

48 hours is for an adult dragon, it's 2 hours per level of experience for hatchlings. I guess they could have their 2 hours, duck out of site behind a bush, tree, building change and then instantly change back for another two hours.

If I adopted the above mentioned strategy that the means the character could simply change their eye colour, skin pigmentation, length of hair every hour and fifty minutes and never have to go in Dragon form again.

As a G.M. I would rule the dragon must revert back to true form in order to reset the timer on that ability. I would probably make them have to spend at least 10 minutes in their natural form in order to prevent abuse.

[Glistam]

Can anyone suggest some books where I can find some cool dragon variants other than Conversion Book One and Dragons and Gods ?

These are the Rifts dragons I am aware of, and the book they are from. I included Conversion Book 1 for the sake of completion.

Rifts: Ultimate Edition

• Cat's Eye
• Flame Wind
• Forest Runner
• Royal Frilled

Conversion Book 1

• Basilisk
• Cockatrice
• Fire Dragon
• Great Horned Dragon
• Hydra
• Ice Dragon
• Kukulcan
• Night Stalker
• Serpent of the Wind
• Thunder Lizard
• Wooly Dragon

Rifts: England

• Chiang-Ku

Rifts: Japan

• Shikome Kido-Mi
• Kumo-Mi
• Asama-Tatsu

Rifts: Psyscape

• Zaayr Crystal Dragon

Rifts: Canada

• Ogopogo

Rifts: Lemuria

• Leviathan
• Ghost Dragon
• Hydros Dragon
• Octo Dragon
• Sand Dragon

[Nightmask]

Chiang-Ku first appeared in New England (I believe) and I know they are in Dragons and Gods.
Thanks for the tip on Psyscape and SOT.

wrote:

wrote:
I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

We interpret it to be the total amount of time in a 24 hour period the dragon can be transformed. At levels where their time limit exceeds 24 hours the need to rest 1 hour before changing forms. This is for hatchlings only since most adult dragons can maintain their transformation indefinitely.

Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

48 hours is for an adult dragon, it's 2 hours per level of experience for hatchlings. I guess they could have their 2 hours, duck out of site behind a bush, tree, building change and then instantly change back for another two hours.

If I adopted the above mentioned strategy that the means the character could simply change their eye colour, skin pigmentation, length of hair every hour and fifty minutes and never have to go in Dragon form again.

As a G.M. I would rule the dragon must revert back to true form in order to reset the timer on that ability. I would probably make them have to spend at least 10 minutes in their natural form in order to prevent abuse.

How would one abuse such or forcing a 10 minute wait on them prevent it? Particularly when mages with metamorphic spells can recast said spells and maintain them indefinitely (helped along by the various boosts and extra sources of PPE that are around).

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

48 hours is for an adult dragon, it's 2 hours per level of experience for hatchlings. I guess they could have their 2 hours, duck out of site behind a bush, tree, building change and then instantly change back for another two hours.

If I adopted the above mentioned strategy that the means the character could simply change their eye colour, skin pigmentation, length of hair every hour and fifty minutes and never have to go in Dragon form again.

Greetings and Salutations. Your response implies you didn't bother reading the reference I provided. Though I suppose your response could just mean you think hatchlings have better metamorphosis than adults, and that you think 1st and 4th level dragons can only refer to Adult dragons, but I'd find such an interpretation rather odd.

The time listed (if you're using the original Sourcebook One ruling) is 2 hours per level ... within a 48 hour period. That's regardless of the number of forms taken in that time (it's a duration, not a quantity factor). After you use your time, you have to wait 24 hours before you can use it again. This is all presented in the book and page I mentioned.

Many don't know of it's existence in that book (possibly not even having a copy), or willfully ignore it. After all, it can be viewed as restrictive. With that said, it's the only official rule I'm aware of within an actual Rifts book. Most other Palladium products (Dragons & Gods included) don't specify beyond listing a number of hours per level (which can be interpreted in multiple ways). Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Blue_Lion]

Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

48 hours is for an adult dragon, it's 2 hours per level of experience for hatchlings. I guess they could have their 2 hours, duck out of site behind a bush, tree, building change and then instantly change back for another two hours.

If I adopted the above mentioned strategy that the means the character could simply change their eye colour, skin pigmentation, length of hair every hour and fifty minutes and never have to go in Dragon form again.

Greetings and Salutations. Your response implies you didn't bother reading the reference I provided. Though I suppose your response could just mean you think hatchlings have better metamorphosis than adults, and that you think 1st and 4th level dragons can only refer to Adult dragons, but I'd find such an interpretation rather odd.

The time listed (if you're using the original Sourcebook One ruling) is 2 hours per level ... within a 48 hour period. That's regardless of the number of forms taken in that time (it's a duration, not a quantity factor). After you use your time, you have to wait 24 hours before you can use it again. This is all presented in the book and page I mentioned.

Many don't know of it's existence in that book (possibly not even having a copy), or willfully ignore it. After all, it can be viewed as restrictive. With that said, it's the only official rule I'm aware of within an actual Rifts book. Most other Palladium products (Dragons & Gods included) don't specify beyond listing a number of hours per level (which can be interpreted in multiple ways). Farewell and safe journeys for now.

The problem is that said rule was edited out of the revised edition. That means if it is still a valid rule can be called into question. It is a rule only listed in a book that was changed/revised before it was changed. The other product dragons & gods was where they moved the base dragons information to. So if the information did not fallow it with the change in the book it can viewed as a rule no longer relvent. It may have been on the books at one time but the book it was in was changed and it was removed making its validity questionable.

(PB has only officially listed changing a handful of books, material dropped from any changed book and not reprinted else where can reasonably assumed no longer valid.)

[Prysus]

The problem is that said rule was edited out of the revised edition.

Greetings and Salutations. Actually, the entire Question & Answer section was removed.

That means if it is still a valid rule can be called into question.

People are welcome to do so. That doesn't make it any less accurate of a reference, which is all I presented it as. I never once said it was the rule all people must use without question. People are welcome to feel it's no longer valid. People are also welcome to ignore any rules they see fit. People can do a lot of things. None of that changes that it's a printed reference in an official Palladium product regarding the topic.

It is a rule only listed in a book that was changed/revised before it was changed. The other product dragons & gods was where they moved the base dragons information to. So if the information did not fallow it with the change in the book it can viewed as a rule no longer relvent.

Dragons & Gods did alter the rule slightly. It states that after all the time is used it only takes a hatchling 12 hours before they can use it again (instead of 24). It doesn't address a time period other than that. 2 hours per level could mean change as many times as you want, could intend for the old rule (within a 48 hour period to remain), or meant to cut 48 hours down to 24 (cutting it in half like the cool down time). Dragons & Gods isn't very specific on the matter.

It may have been on the books at one time but the book it was in was changed and it was removed making its validity questionable.

(PB has only officially listed changing a handful of books, material dropped from any changed book and not reprinted else where can reasonably assumed no longer valid.)

One can definitely have that logic. Of course that logic also means that you think Palladium intentionally removed the ability for characters to jump (Rifts, original rule book had rules for jumping after a certain printing) and that the ability for Game Masters to roll up new monsters is now void (because original Rifts rule book had a random roll table for new monsters). However, I don't think either one of those are very good logic.

I, for one, tend to follow the philosophy that a rule remains unless it's changed or contradicted by a new rule. That's my personal stance, but people can decide how they'd like. I'm not even sure if as a G.M. I'd use the rule in Sourcebook One (original) in my games. However, I enjoy presenting information from the books whenever possible so people can make informed decisions. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Blue_Lion]

The problem is that said rule was edited out of the revised edition.

Greetings and Salutations. Actually, the entire Question & Answer section was removed.

That means if it is still a valid rule can be called into question.

People are welcome to do so. That doesn't make it any less accurate of a reference, which is all I presented it as. I never once said it was the rule all people must use without question. People are welcome to feel it's no longer valid. People are also welcome to ignore any rules they see fit. People can do a lot of things. None of that changes that it's a printed reference in an official Palladium product regarding the topic.

It is a rule only listed in a book that was changed/revised before it was changed. The other product dragons & gods was where they moved the base dragons information to. So if the information did not fallow it with the change in the book it can viewed as a rule no longer relvent.

Dragons & Gods did alter the rule slightly. It states that after all the time is used it only takes a hatchling 12 hours before they can use it again (instead of 24). It doesn't address a time period other than that. 2 hours per level could mean change as many times as you want, could intend for the old rule (within a 48 hour period to remain), or meant to cut 48 hours down to 24 (cutting it in half like the cool down time). Dragons & Gods isn't very specific on the matter.

It may have been on the books at one time but the book it was in was changed and it was removed making its validity questionable.

(PB has only officially listed changing a handful of books, material dropped from any changed book and not reprinted else where can reasonably assumed no longer valid.)

One can definitely have that logic. Of course that logic also means that you think Palladium intentionally removed the ability for characters to jump (Rifts, original rule book had rules for jumping after a certain printing) and that the ability for Game Masters to roll up new monsters is now void (because original Rifts rule book had a random roll table for new monsters). However, I don't think either one of those are very good logic.

I, for one, tend to follow the philosophy that a rule remains unless it's changed or contradicted by a new rule. That's my personal stance, but people can decide how they'd like. I'm not even sure if as a G.M. I'd use the rule in Sourcebook One (original) in my games. However, I enjoy presenting information from the books whenever possible so people can make informed decisions. Farewell and safe journeys.

No you presented it as any one not using it was wrong. That in itself was in error, if it is still RAW is debated and subject to GM call.(so a person not using is not wrong for doing so.

Your numbers also do not match if it is for a 48 hour period you get it back in 24 hours so one of the numbers is wrong.(If you are accurately quoting the QA then it is inconstant with it self not worth searching for the book) You just pointed out that a book printed after it is where they move references to dragon abilities has a different rule. That makes the one in Dragons and Gods the currant one (it was written for another setting but intended for use in rifts as well).

Jumping is a strawman, Jumping rules have been printed in more than just one book so there are still stats in valid books as well as the cutting room floor. So that is different than a rule that appeared in just one book and was removed and when the book was reprinted. Rue does have reference to charters being able to jumping so they still note it is possible, given the wide range of pc races size and shapes it may be that the 5' jump from the old book felt in error. You can use rules from other PB games as long as they do not conflict with any valid rule for rifts.

ON the random roll up, by currant active books there are no random tables like there was in the original book. That book is out of print and replaced so unless the rule is also in a still active book has gone the way of the do-do and not part of currant RAW.

[Prysus]

No you presented it as any one not using it was wrong.

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, this is the second thread now where you've decided to quote me, assigned false motivations to posts, and then tried to argue with me because something I never claimed is wrong. I'm not sure if you have a personal issue with me, or genuinely have trouble reading everything I type. As a suggestion, I'd recommend trying to stop adding some hidden agenda to my posts.

Now, I did say that trying to read the Sourcebook One quote as only applying to adult dragons is wrong, since it mentions 2 hours per level (which is generally a hatchling figure) as well as 1st and 4th level dragons in the example (which will be hard to argue that 1st level only applies to adult dragons). Trying to say those figures indicate only adult dragons is ... well, wrong. So I'm fine with someone not using the rule, but I also wanted to correct someone who was discussing the rule I mentioned in an incorrect manner (saying it was only for adults).

Your numbers also do not match if it is for a 48 hour period you get it back in 24 hours so one of the numbers is wrong.(If you are accurately quoting the QA then it is inconstant with it self not worth searching for the book) You just pointed out that a book printed after it is where they move references to dragon abilities has a different rule. That makes the one in Dragons and Gods the currant one (it was written for another setting but intended for use in rifts as well).

The numbers can be viewed as contradictions, but there's also a way the numbers do work. I'll explain ...

Using the Rule: A second level dragon hatchling dragon with 2 hours per level can only use metapmorphosis for 4 hours within a 48 hour period. So, the dragon can use metamorphosis 1.5 hours per day, and never once reach his limit. On the other hand, the dragon can use metamorphosis for 3 hours, change back to a dragon for 40 hours (43 hours total so far), then use metamorphosis again for an hour. After the hour, he'll be forced back into his true dragon form (he reached his limit of 4 hours within a 48 hour period). In addition to that, he'll now need to wait 24 hours before he can use metamorphosis again. Ergo, a 48 hour window, and a 24 hour cool down. Now, this would also mean that the dragon could use 4 hours at the start of the day, wait 24 hours, and then use it again. When he uses metamorphosis again (after only 28 hours), a new 48 hour window opens. So a dragon could burn through it quickly (and require a cool down), or use it sparingly and always remain in control.

Jumping is a strawman, Jumping rules have been printed in more than just one book so there are still stats in valid books as well as the cutting room floor. So that is different than a rule that appeared in just one book and was removed and when the book was reprinted. Rue does have reference to charters being able to jumping so they still note it is possible, given the wide range of pc races size and shapes it may be that the 5' jump from the old book felt in error. You can use rules from other PB games as long as they do not conflict with any valid rule for rifts.

Sadly, jumping isn't. Your argument is that by removing it from the book, it shows the rule is void. So while certain O.C.C. may have special stats, characters in general (unless a jump stat is listed in their O.C.C. or race) cannot jump because Palladium removed it from the updated rule book. If you can provide an actual book (post RUE) that includes general rules for characters jumping, I'll be interested. However, fairly sure there's not, especially not in Rifts. Note: You said it's on the Cutting Room Floor. I'm going to ask for a link on that one. I looked, but didn't see it. I have no issues admitting I'm wrong if you can prove me wrong by actually providing a link.

Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Blue_Lion]

You typed-
"Many don't know of it's existence in that book (possibly not even having a copy), or willfully ignore it."

That is what you setting a tone that those that know about the dropped rule are wrong if they do not use it. Willfully ingoring something is knowing something is valid and ignoring it. If we talk about RAW that is saying they are ignoring a valid rule and are wrong.

You also typed-
Your response implies you didn't bother reading the reference I provided. Though I suppose your response could just mean you think hatchlings have better metamorphosis than adults, and that you think 1st and 4th level dragons can only refer to Adult dragons, but I'd find such an interpretation rather odd.

Again that comes across as saying you did not check the rule, so are wrong.


I replied to your post, with the the way I understand it. If i misunderstand you that can happen you only need to clear up the issue it is not a personal attack on you in any way.

Odd that you accuse me of misquoting you and changing your point but are doing that in the this very post. My Argument I stated was by removing a rule from **all active books** by editing out in a revised edition it can be considered void, but as long as a rule is in any current edition of any book it can still be valid. So yes jumping is a strawman something that you can easily disprove that does not represent my point but a point you can disprove. I explained this in the the very paragraph you quoted before saying it was not a straw man and then told me my stance was something other than what I just said it was.(the key word was all books) They revised the only book and the rule was removed from all books, jumping has rules in several different books though out the PB line and the cutting room floor. Not to mention just because there is no rule for it does not mean you cant and combat moves in RUE talk about jumping/leaping it just has no stats.

A 24 hour cool down on a power than is tracked over 48 hours does seam a contradiction because if I use it up in the first 48 hours and I get it back 24 I can use it more than 2 hours per level, in a 48 hour window. Normal after the window you get the full duration back so for the recovery window to be half the tracked window seams like it may be worded poorly or be contradiction itself.

[Glistam]

Chiang-Ku first appeared in New England (I believe) and I know they are in Dragons and Gods.
Thanks for the tip on Psyscape and SOT.

wrote:

wrote:
I have also interpreted the Metamorphosis time limit to simply the length of time the Dragon can stay in one shape without changing. So if the dragon morphs again the timer "resets."

We interpret it to be the total amount of time in a 24 hour period the dragon can be transformed. At levels where their time limit exceeds 24 hours the need to rest 1 hour before changing forms. This is for hatchlings only since most adult dragons can maintain their transformation indefinitely.

Greetings and Salutations. In Rifts, you can look at Sourcebook One (original), page 10 for a bit more official information on dragon metamorphosis duration. Short answer: The time listed is for a 48 hour period.

Dragons & Gods has slightly different info, of course. This came out after, but is also for a different setting (and compatible with Rifts, but not actually Rifts). Farewell and safe journeys.

48 hours is for an adult dragon, it's 2 hours per level of experience for hatchlings. I guess they could have their 2 hours, duck out of site behind a bush, tree, building change and then instantly change back for another two hours.

If I adopted the above mentioned strategy that the means the character could simply change their eye colour, skin pigmentation, length of hair every hour and fifty minutes and never have to go in Dragon form again.

As a G.M. I would rule the dragon must revert back to true form in order to reset the timer on that ability. I would probably make them have to spend at least 10 minutes in their natural form in order to prevent abuse.

How would one abuse such or forcing a 10 minute wait on them prevent it? Particularly when mages with metamorphic spells can recast said spells and maintain them indefinitely (helped along by the various boosts and extra sources of PPE that are around).

When you need to maintain your disguise but time is running out, it's a lot easier to sneak away and spend only 15 seconds dragon-sized than it is to sneak away and spend only 10 minutes (or more) dragon-sized. That's the "abuse" I would look to prevent.

[Razzinold]

Greetings and Salutations. Your response implies you didn't bother reading the reference I provided. Though I suppose your response could just mean you think hatchlings have better metamorphosis than adults, and that you think 1st and 4th level dragons can only refer to Adult dragons, but I'd find such an interpretation rather odd.

The time listed (if you're using the original Sourcebook One ruling) is 2 hours per level ... within a 48 hour period. That's regardless of the number of forms taken in that time (it's a duration, not a quantity factor). After you use your time, you have to wait 24 hours before you can use it again. This is all presented in the book and page I mentioned.

Many don't know of it's existence in that book (possibly not even having a copy), or willfully ignore it. After all, it can be viewed as restrictive. With that said, it's the only official rule I'm aware of within an actual Rifts book. Most other Palladium products (Dragons & Gods included) don't specify beyond listing a number of hours per level (which can be interpreted in multiple ways). Farewell and safe journeys for now.

I don't think hatchlings are better than adults, my response indicated that I wasn't a huge fan of the posted idea of constantly changing means you could hold a shape indefinitely.
I couldn't read what you posted because I do not have that book.

I was basing my information from RMB:
"Metamorphosis: Is another natural ability. The dragon can completely
alter his physical shape, transforming himself to look like
any living animal, from human being to raven. There are some
limitations; the dragon can not metamorphosize into inanimate objects
or insects. The minimum size is about the size of a cat and
the maximum size can not exceed his own. The transformation can
last two hours per level of experience (an adult dragon can maintain
the transformation for 48 hours)."

It doesn't say anywhere in this passage about having to wait for 24 hours before being able to use this ability again. I was under the assumption, and I don't think I'm alone on this because of conversations I've had in the past with people who have played dragons, that (for example) a fourth level dragon could hold the shape for 8 hours straight if they wanted to do so, revert back to their natural form, and then change again for another 8 hours.

Does the source book give a reason for the 24 hour wait period or is it a "just because we said so" rule ? Is it the same for adult dragons ? They can hold their shape for 48 hours straight and then have to wait 24 hours before using the ability again ?

Another thing, if I can maintain 8 hours of transformation in a 24 hour period what happens if I only transform for 4 hours in that 24 hour period, do I still have to wait 24 hours before being able to transform again ?

[Nightmask]

How would one abuse such or forcing a 10 minute wait on them prevent it? Particularly when mages with metamorphic spells can recast said spells and maintain them indefinitely (helped along by the various boosts and extra sources of PPE that are around).

When you need to maintain your disguise but time is running out, it's a lot easier to sneak away and spend only 15 seconds dragon-sized than it is to sneak away and spend only 10 minutes (or more) dragon-sized. That's the "abuse" I would look to prevent.

So again just why is that abuse? That restriction seems contrived to ensure someone playing a dragon character would be forced to be exposed to everyone as one.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

If you're talking real-life, there's no, "strength at resisting the kick", all there is is physics, which would see a tiny body flying backwards, dragged down by gravity.

If you're talking in-game, there is no such ability itemed as "strength at resisting the kick".

Same thing with the dragon. You can kick it all you want but your strength is piddly compared to it's.

Its strength has no factor in any way, shape or form in affecting physics, unless it's holding on to something, as Blue_Lion has correctly stated.

Otherwise, book and page number where it says differently. Hell, produce anything other than a hand-written note from your parent or guardian (because favoritism) that would support your argument.

LOL Trust me. there's more than gravity. I forget that some people have never actually been in a fight.

Yes if someone kicks you, you can resist flying backwards with your own strength. In effect you push forward to resist flying backwards. Other wise any time someone bumped into us in a mall or something we'd go flying away. Which I think we can all agree is silly. No you don't have to be holding onto the ground to do it.

(I have been in a fight and was a hand to hand instructor for the army.)
You are mistaking avoiding knock down with being thrown. What keeps you from falling when kicked or punched is how you maintain your balance, that is why you spread your feet in most combat stances. Normally a kick does not have the force to send a fighter fling as the backlash would do the same for the one kicking as well.(think about it this way if your punch/kick had the force to move some ones mass then an upwards punch would lift them off the ground regardless of how strong they are.) But does have the force to throw off a person balance. Balance keeps you upright.

What holds you in place is gravity and the friction with the ground. If the force of a impact accedes that even if you maintain balance and upright you will move with the impact.

With most people it easier to topple them by throwing there balance off than to strike with force to toss them backwards.

It would be like when a super strong super hero catches a moving train and is pushed back but can stay standing. Giving the size of a dragon cat with its strength it is unlikely to get knocked down but would be knocked back or thrown fairly easily.

**Edit--I tried to think of a time in a fight that I pushed against an attack but I could not think of any. The closes I can think of is tighting up my core to avoid getting the wind knock out of me. When hit I do not push against the blow but tend to rock or roll with it weather I want to or not. I do use some leg strength to stay up right and maintain balance but never actually pushed against an attack not even when I block, there is always some movement with the blow never against it. The closes I seen to some one pushing against a blow was some one running into a fist and he got knocked flat.

Pushing against a blow would be like getting ground pounded with your head on the ground. Very bad thing to have happen well at least for a person.

There's no real point in arguing with you about it. I know you're wrong. I've had years of martial arts. I've been in plenty of actual fights. I know full well that you can resist being thrown back when hit or kicked. It's more than just gravity. Call it what ever you like, but it's not worth getting in an argument on a forums board. Anyone that's -actually- been in a fight, and not just claiming to, knows different. People don't go flying every time you hit them. Some resist the energy transfer and no they're not using gravity to do it. They're using the strength in their own body.

A creature with supernatural strength and MDC body isn't going to go flying through the air when a non supernatural creature kicks it. It's going to laugh at you as you break your foot.

[Pepsi Jedi]

LOL Trust me. there's more than gravity. I forget that some people have never actually been in a fight.

Why would anyone trust you? You seem to believe in some ability not based in truth labelled, "strength in resisting the kick".

Yes if someone kicks you, you can resist flying backwards with your own strength.

I don't know if you actually read my post, but I did say that physics are involved, as opposed to "strength at resisting the kick". Like, if you brace yourself somehow, using your strength, similar to how Blue_Lion has stated previously, which you were arguing against - again, in favour of the ability you've coined as, "strength in resisting the kick".

In effect you push forward to resist flying backwards.

Gee, it's almost like some kind of physics are involved. Too bad it doesn't have a law governing it... I swear, Newton was supposed to make one regarding this.

Oh well, I guess we'll just call it, "strength at resisting the kick"

So your point is what? To agree with me in terms you prefer? You've said nothing but "Pepsi's right" in an unkind way.

So... thanks?

[Pepsi Jedi]

In reference to the Metamorph ability, remember there is a long running dragon in Rifts Canon that not everyone knows IS a dragon and has maintained the disguise for decades. The one tooling around with Reids' Rangers. I forget her name off the top of my head. Something the white maybe?

I think it indicates she maintains her humanoid disguise and yes. slips away for a few seconds now and then to shift to her dragon form then back to her humanoid form.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Also remember a few more things about the metamorph.

The time frame isn't locked in stone. Many seem to default at 2 hours per lvl, but some have a little as 1 hour per lvl or up to 4 hours per lvl depending on breed. In addition being 'on or -near- a lay line, i.e. with in 2 miles and that number is tripled.

Add in that many adult dragon's metamorph power is advanced to 'unlimited duration'.

And couple that as well with many possessing the ability to turn invisible at will.

Like the before mentiond Carlotta the white, It says she's a 'hatchling' but can maintain her metamorph ability for 14 hours at a stretch. Which might seem limiting untill you read the rest and see that she can turn invisible at will. So... if she came up against the deadline. All she has to do is step out side a building, go invisible and shift into her dragon form. Now in a crowded city that might be a bit more problematic but not really. She could jump out a window invisible, shift to dragon form and fly off. Or what have you (Go out back etc.)

RUE and the Conversion book do not maintain a "per day" or "per 48 hours" thing. It simply states that the dragons can metamorph ___ hours per lvl. So they very well could maintain their max time metamorphed, shift and then 'reset' it. More over it does NOT state that you need to revert to your original form. That's something that many of us assume, but as written. The dragon could metamorph into a human male. Go up to his max duration. "go to the bathroom" Change into a human female, or a different male or a cat for a minute, thus resetting the timer, then shift back to the human male he was before. All he or she needs is a little privacy. I mean technically they could pull this off in a sleeping bag with it up over their head. Might look a bit weird thrashing around in the sleeping bag but how many people are going to try and open the bag to see what you're up to in there?

Now that seems a bit twinkish but.. it depends on how you read it. The books go out of their way to say that Dragons metamorph like they breathe and they love using the power. It is -just- as valid to read it as "Max duration, shift into something else for a moment to reset, then shift back to your 'desired' form" as it is to read "Must resume 'true form'". It depends only on your GM and how your group decides to run with the power. The intent is clearly there that dragons be able to metamorph and approximate human form with little to no difficulty should they wish to.

[Prysus]

I couldn't read what you posted because I do not have that book.

Greetings and Salutations. That's fine. I'll help the best I can (if you're further interested), though I think I covered it well enough in a previous post ...

Example (given earlier): A second level dragon hatchling dragon with 2 hours per level can only use metapmorphosis for 4 hours within a 48 hour period. So, the dragon can use metamorphosis 1.5 hours per day, and never once reach his limit. On the other hand, the dragon can use metamorphosis for 3 hours, change back to a dragon for 40 hours (43 hours total so far), then use metamorphosis again for an hour. After the hour, he'll be forced back into his true dragon form (he reached his limit of 4 hours within a 48 hour period). In addition to that, he'll now need to wait 24 hours before he can use metamorphosis again. Ergo, a 48 hour window, and a 24 hour cool down. Now, this would also mean that the dragon could use 4 hours at the start of the day, wait 24 hours, and then use it again. When he uses metamorphosis again (after only 28 hours), a new 48 hour window opens. So a dragon could burn through it quickly (and require a cool down), or use it sparingly and always remain in control.

It doesn't say anywhere in this passage about having to wait for 24 hours before being able to use this ability again. I was under the assumption, and I don't think I'm alone on this because of conversations I've had in the past with people who have played dragons, that (for example) a fourth level dragon could hold the shape for 8 hours straight if they wanted to do so, revert back to their natural form, and then change again for another 8 hours.

That is definitely one way (and a common one) to rule it. RMB, RUE, Dragons & Gods, as well as almost any other Palladium Book that discusses dragon metamorphosis doesn't mention the extent of that "2 hours per level" (or whatever other number they use instead of 2). As such, we typically need to fill in the blanks. So ruling it can be changed near constantly is a valid interpretation of the general statement the books usually provide.

I'll say on a personal note, I feel that such an interpretation makes a time limit meaningless. 2 hours, with the ability to change to reset the counter or return to dragon form and use the ability again immediately after, effectively makes the duration indefinite. So listing a duration is more of a minor annoyance than an actual limitation. That's, of course, my opinion on the matter. I also believe the ruling that as long as you keep changing forms it resets the counter uses faulty logic. I'll provide a different example.

G.M.: "Okay, your duration is almost up. You won't be able to maintain your metamorphosis much longer. You'll need to act fast if you're going to keep your true origin a secret."
Player: "I sneak into the bathroom and metamorphosis into a cat."
G.M.: "Interesting. Okay, you manage to slip into the currently empty bathroom and change into a cat. So what's your plan?"
Player: "I transform back into the human form and rejoin the party."
G.M.: "Err ... are you sure about that?"
Player: "Well, yeah, I changed to a new form, so I can last at least 6 more hours. I'm good to go."
G.M.: "As you wade back into the crowd you suddenly grow and return to your true dragon form, squashing a few party guests in the process. This should go without saying, but the guards are now onto your ruse."
Player: "But I reset my metamorphosis! No way my duration can be up yet!"
G.M.: "You were using metamorphosis as a human, right?"
Player: "Yeah."
G.M.: "And you were using metamorphosis as a cat, right?"
Player: "Yeah."
G.M.: "And you were using metamorphosis when you returned to a human, right?"
Player: "Yeah. Three different forms, each has a different duration."
G.M.: "Three forms, each using metamorphosis. The duration lists the length of metamorphosis as an ability, not how long you can use a single form. The ability never states 'per form.' Since you were always using it, the clock kept ticking."

Note: RMB and RUE don't mention any cool down period. So using those rules, as long as the character reverted to a dragon form at some point, then the counter could (in theory) reset. Even if forced into dragon form, the character could immediately use it again. Dragons & Gods mentions a cool down period for the duration being reached, but doesn't specify how long a break is required (if any) should the limit not be reached. Sourcebook One lists the duration for a 48 hour period, with a cool down period if the duration is reached.

Does the source book give a reason for the 24 hour wait period or is it a "just because we said so" rule ?

There's no explanation given. That's just the rule/extent of the power. Though, if I had to explain it, I'd say it's like flexing a muscle (magic isn't really a muscle, but it's something we humans can understand for a comparison). If you stress the muscle too long (beyond it's duration), you might pull the muscle or strain it in a way that you need time to recover from. The more experienced you get, the stronger that muscle becomes (allowing a longer duration). Someone else might have a different (or even better) explanation.

Is it the same for adult dragons ? They can hold their shape for 48 hours straight and then have to wait 24 hours before using the ability again ?

They don't mention adults (only the 2 hours per level aspect). So, if using that rule, a dragon that can use metamorphosis for 48 hours within a 48 hour period effectively has an indefinite duration.

Another thing, if I can maintain 8 hours of transformation in a 24 hour period what happens if I only transform for 4 hours in that 24 hour period, do I still have to wait 24 hours before being able to transform again ?

From what I'm reading, not unless you maxed out your duration. So, in your example ...

Day 1: You transform for 4 hours in one day.
Day 2: You transform again for 3 hours. Days 1 & 2 make 7 hours total for the 48 hour period.
Day 3: 4 more hours. Days 2 & 3 make 7 hours again for the 48 hour period.
Day 4: Another 4 hours. Days 3 & 4 make 8 hours and you hit your limit.
Day 5: You can't use metamorphosis due to the 24 hour recharge period.
Day 6: You've recovered and can use metamorphosis for up to 8 hours (or reserve it for when it's of the most use).

Note: This is using the Sourcebook One (original) rule only. Dragons & Gods mentions the cool down period being 12 hours for hatchlings and only 5 hours for adults. However, the conditions to reach that limit are unclear. Is it your hours per level in one shape for a straight duration only, or is there an unmentioned time limit within?

I'll also note that Rifts World Book 1: Vampire Kingdoms (original) does support the Sourcebook One rule. I'll address the more in another post. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Prysus]

Like the before mentiond Carlotta the white, It says she's a 'hatchling' but can maintain her metamorph ability for 14 hours at a stretch. Which might seem limiting untill you read the rest and see that she can turn invisible at will. So... if she came up against the deadline. All she has to do is step out side a building, go invisible and shift into her dragon form. Now in a crowded city that might be a bit more problematic but not really. She could jump out a window invisible, shift to dragon form and fly off. Or what have you (Go out back etc.)

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, you have my curious now, are you using World Book 1: Vampire Kingdoms (original) or Rifts Vampire Sourcebook? I don't have Rifts Vampire Sourcebook yet (I have all the books before that, but that's where my financial situation changed and I stopped buying all the books). In RWB1: Vampire Kingdoms (original, 6th Printing) on page 109 though, we have these quotes ...

Natural Dragon Abilities: Metamorphosis: Can maintain the form of a woman (or any other) for 14 hours per every 48 hour period.

This one mentions the 48 hour period.

Surprisingly, few people realize that Carlotta is a dragon.

The book actually calls it "surprising" that she has maintained this ruse.

Few have made the connection between her and the nameless dragon that is known to frequently join Sir Lazarious on missions.

All the original Rangers know that Carlotta is a dragon and keep her secret. However, this knowledge makes Carlotta nervous.

So people know about the dragon, they just haven't put the two together. The second quote (a "Note" at the end of her description) tells that the original members know. Since she's nervous about them knowing, I'd think she didn't want them to know (but couldn't hide it). Also since they keep her secret, it stands to reason they help cover for her.

To maintain her secret, she and Lazarious disappear for hours or days at a time. [snip] Carlotta the woman will often wander off or go on reconnaissance alone, or with Sir Lazarious, so that she may revert to her dragon form and save her metamorphosis for when she must associate with humanoids.

So she disappears for hours or days, and does a lot of things alone. This helps her use metamorphosis with the time duration (clearly listed in her natural abilities).

Now, since I don't have Rifts Vampire Sourcebook where Reid's Rangers were updated, I don't know how much of these quotes remained. It's possible this all changed. However, it does seem to have been a rule at least at one point (and not just within Sourcebook One). I'd check more dragon hatchling NPC for references, but unfortunately I don't know Rifts well enough to know their locations. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Like the before mentiond Carlotta the white, It says she's a 'hatchling' but can maintain her metamorph ability for 14 hours at a stretch. Which might seem limiting untill you read the rest and see that she can turn invisible at will. So... if she came up against the deadline. All she has to do is step out side a building, go invisible and shift into her dragon form. Now in a crowded city that might be a bit more problematic but not really. She could jump out a window invisible, shift to dragon form and fly off. Or what have you (Go out back etc.)

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, you have my curious now, are you using World Book 1: Vampire Kingdoms (original) or Rifts Vampire Sourcebook? I don't have Rifts Vampire Sourcebook yet (I have all the books before that, but that's where my financial situation changed and I stopped buying all the books). In RWB1: Vampire Kingdoms (original, 6th Printing) on page 109 though, we have these quotes ...

Natural Dragon Abilities: Metamorphosis: Can maintain the form of a woman (or any other) for 14 hours per every 48 hour period.

This one mentions the 48 hour period.

Surprisingly, few people realize that Carlotta is a dragon.

The book actually calls it "surprising" that she has maintained this ruse.

Few have made the connection between her and the nameless dragon that is known to frequently join Sir Lazarious on missions.

All the original Rangers know that Carlotta is a dragon and keep her secret. However, this knowledge makes Carlotta nervous.

So people know about the dragon, they just haven't put the two together. The second quote (a "Note" at the end of her description) tells that the original members know. Since she's nervous about them knowing, I'd think she didn't want them to know (but couldn't hide it). Also since they keep her secret, it stands to reason they help cover for her.

To maintain her secret, she and Lazarious disappear for hours or days at a time. [snip] Carlotta the woman will often wander off or go on reconnaissance alone, or with Sir Lazarious, so that she may revert to her dragon form and save her metamorphosis for when she must associate with humanoids.

So she disappears for hours or days, and does a lot of things alone. This helps her use metamorphosis with the time duration (clearly listed in her natural abilities).

Now, since I don't have Rifts Vampire Sourcebook where Reid's Rangers were updated, I don't know how much of these quotes remained. It's possible this all changed. However, it does seem to have been a rule at least at one point (and not just within Sourcebook One). I'd check more dragon hatchling NPC for references, but unfortunately I don't know Rifts well enough to know their locations. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Thing is no where do I see that the metamorph ability is limited "per 24 hours" or what have you. It's not in the write ups for hatchlings in the RMB, it's not in the RUE for the "New lets dodge licensing things" Dragons and it's not in dragons and gods.

Nor do any of them say that you 'can't' just change into something else. It just says that the form you change INTO has a limit. So you very well could go from Woman to Cat back to woman. As there's nothing in the books about 'resetting' to dragon form.

Now Source book one tried to put in a "Per 48 hour" thing, but it was not repeated in conversion book, Or dragons and gods or RUE. All of which came out after Source book 1 So the rule if put in, was then taken out. As we KNOW how much Palladium loves cut and paste, had it been meant to be included it would have been. More over it was also taken out of source book 1 revised.

There fore the most 'recent' rules say that dragons can morph to a different form for 1... 2... or 4 hours per lvl of experience as hatchlings. (Some adults get it as indefinitely) There is no written rule that says they must revert back to dragon form before metamorphing again.

Therefore as current RAW, A dragon could turn into a .... white haired human woman for his morph duration. At 5 minutes shy of that duration. ( 1, 2, 3 or 4 hours per level, tripled if with in 2 miles of or on a ley line.) The dragon could slip into the bathroom, behind a tree, around a corner, into a sleeping bag and POOF. turn into a cat. Once he or she is a cat, the duration starts over, because AS WRITTEN the power just says that the form can be maintained for that duration.

Then.. a second or two later (next action) They can morph again, changing back into the form they had previously. The white haired human woman. And the duration starts over.


__AS WRITTEN__ in the most current rules and books. This is 100% viable.

I'm not sure it's "As intended" but the "per 48 hour period" was purposefully left out of ... the conversion book... Dragons and gods.... Revised source book 1 and RUE, all.

So.... I'd let it work.

The only way you get in trouble is if you use an alt rule in source book one. (Non revised) a literal 25 year old addendum that was purposefully not reprinted in 4 later books. Something most people are not going to do. If nothing else the 4 more modern and up to date books do not contain the rule.

[Prysus]

You typed-
"Many don't know of it's existence in that book (possibly not even having a copy), or willfully ignore it."

That is what you setting a tone that those that know about the dropped rule are wrong if they do not use it. Willfully ingoring something is knowing something is valid and ignoring it. If we talk about RAW that is saying they are ignoring a valid rule and are wrong.

No, that's me saying a lot of people don't know the rule exists, and many of those that do make a conscious decision to ignore/not use it. Glistam is an excellent example. He knew it, doesn't think it makes sense, and ignores it. But it's a conscious decision to ignore that rule. I make lots of decisions not to use various rules in the books. However, I prefer to know they first exist, so that I can make an informed decision.

You also typed-
Your response implies you didn't bother reading the reference I provided. Though I suppose your response could just mean you think hatchlings have better metamorphosis than adults, and that you think 1st and 4th level dragons can only refer to Adult dragons, but I'd find such an interpretation rather odd.

Again that comes across as saying you did not check the rule, so are wrong.

Yes, he quoted my reference and then said it meant something else. He was wrong. He didn't have the book so he couldn't read it. I get it. But he still thought the rule meant something it did not (so what he said was wrong). I'll give a different example:

If you say "RUE has a hand to hand for dragon on page 349" and then I come along and say "No, those rules are only for humans." Then I'd be wrong. Maybe in my house rules only humans can have hand to hand, which is my right, or maybe I just don't use the "optional" hand to hand used. Maybe I went from memory or maybe I don't own the book. Regardless, to say that page 349 doesn't have a hand to hand for dragons is wrong. This is just a fact. Anyone can pick up the book and see that it's there. If someone makes the claim it's not there, or it means something different, it doesn't matter why they said it, they still said something untrue/wrong.

I replied to your post, with the the way I understand it. If i misunderstand you that can happen you only need to clear up the issue it is not a personal attack on you in any way.

Cool. Wish I thought of that. Oh ... wait ...

I'm not even sure if as a G.M. I'd use the rule in Sourcebook One (original) in my games. However, I enjoy presenting information from the books whenever possible so people can make informed decisions. Farewell and safe journeys.

No you presented it as any one not using it was wrong.

Hey, I did. Then you inferred I'm a liar, and decided to declare what I meant because you feel you know what I was trying to say better than I do. As I said before, this isn't the first time you did this to me in a thread either. So if you're not trying to launch personal attacks, then stop acting like it. If you're willing to admit there are possibilities for misunderstandings, then don't automatically revert to thinking I'm lying and that your interpretation of my post is the only possible right one.

[Odd that you accuse me of misquoting you and changing your point but are doing that in the this very post. My Argument I stated was by removing a rule from **all active books** by editing out in a revised edition it can be considered void, but as long as a rule is in any current edition of any book it can still be valid.

RUE is a revised/updated rule book of RMB. The jumping rules were removed. As for "current edition of any book," I just haven't forgotten our last encounter either.

(Note on rifts boards use rifts stats.)

So you it needs to be only Rifts when it suits your needs, but you can use any setting when it suits your needs. The irony of this specific topic is even more hilarious, since you're the one arguing a Palladium Fantasy Sourcebook (Dragons & Gods, which is clearly labeled as a PF book and found in the PF section of the PB store) is more valid than a Rifts Sourcebook (which by the way, original Sourcebook One is still available as a PDF by Palladium through DriveThruRPG, with no intention to discontinue it).

Note: I continue to wait for the link to the jumping rules on the Cutting Room Floor. I don't think they're on there like you claim (and I did look).

Anyways, farewell and safe journeys once again.

[Prysus]

Now Source book one tried to put in a "Per 48 hour" thing, but it was not repeated in conversion book, Or dragons and gods or RUE. All of which came out after Source book 1 So the rule if put in, was then taken out. As we KNOW how much Palladium loves cut and paste, had it been meant to be included it would have been. More over it was also taken out of source book 1 revised.

Greetings and Salutations. Meh, Palladium loves copy and paste, but they also miss lots of stuff. That's why Carpet of Adhesion still has that range contradiction in Rifts but not some of its other lines (like that was removed from PF2 and HU, but continues in Rifts). I think they'd be more inclined to copy and paste from the already written stats of dragons (such as the stats in Rifts main book, for example) instead of non-stats from a FAQ. Also, the entire FAQ section was removed from the Sourcebook One, Revised. If they kept the FAQ section and just removed that one, I would definitely be agreeing it was an intentional change. Note: I'll be very curious to check out Carlotta in Rifts Vampire Sourecbook to see if the "48 hours" note is still there or not. If a lot of her write-up and/or stats are cut/paste, but that line removed, it would definitely go a further way to show intent. If it's still there, we're back to "could be an oversight or could be intentional."

I definitely don't think Palladium editors are masterminds who'd be sure to make sure they include every tidbit of relevant information ever printed. So as things stand now, I can say "maybe" it was intentionally removed, or maybe an oversight. This is Palladium after all. Of course, I generally don't care if others consider it void or not. I'm not sure I'd use it myself (it's never come up), and I don't really care if others do. I really only pointed it out so people would know it's there, and could decide for themselves if they wanted to use it or not. After that things just kind of started to devolve. *Shrugs.*

There fore the most 'recent' rules say that dragons can morph to a different form for 1... 2... or 4 hours per lvl of experience as hatchlings. (Some adults get it as indefinitely) There is no written rule that says they must revert back to dragon form before metamorphing again.

The ability reads that you can use "metamorphosis" for the listed duration. It doesn't list the duration as "per form" or "in one form" as you're trying to claim either. So if we're discussing just what's written, then as long as you're using the ability non-stop, the duration would continue counting down.

So ask: "Have you stopped using Metamorphosis?" If your answer is no, then it doesn't matter how many forms you've actually taken because "Metamorphosis" the ability is still in use. Now, I'll say that as long as you're limiting yourself to RUE or RMB only, that as long as you revert to dragon form for a second, you've stopped using it and can reset the counter. I don't think that's in the spirit of the rule, but it's definitely in the letter.

Think about it a different way. If I say "The Playstation can only stay on for 4 hours at a time or it'll overheat and break" do you think that means if you play a different game every hour it resets the timer for how long the Playstation has been on? That's what you're trying to argue with metamorphosis. Now, by the strict wording, if you shut the Playstation off for a second before you switched games, the Playstation would not have been on for more than an hour at a time (realistically you'd probably still break it, but it follows the strict wording). Farewell and safe journeys.

[glitterboy2098]

Note: I'll be very curious to check out Carlotta in Rifts Vampire Sourecbook to see if the "48 hours" note is still there or not. If a lot of her write-up and/or stats are cut/paste, but that line removed, it would definitely go a further way to show intent. If it's still there, we're back to "could be an oversight or could be intentional."

i just checked. the 48 hours note is no longer present. however it still says she can only maintain it for 14 hours.

also, she was made into a Snow Lizard Dragon from RUE, instead of the non-defined dragon of the original WB1.


the fluff however stays pretty much the same, with a few additions for the new dragon type. she still disappears "for hours or days" as a way of hiding her dragon-ness from others.

Personally, i'd say that you need a "cool down period".. that the metamorphosis is taxing enough that you can't just use it again instantly.

[Blue_Lion]

You typed-
"Many don't know of it's existence in that book (possibly not even having a copy), or willfully ignore it."

That is what you setting a tone that those that know about the dropped rule are wrong if they do not use it. Willfully ingoring something is knowing something is valid and ignoring it. If we talk about RAW that is saying they are ignoring a valid rule and are wrong.

No, that's me saying a lot of people don't know the rule exists, and many of those that do make a conscious decision to ignore/not use it. Glistam is an excellent example. He knew it, doesn't think it makes sense, and ignores it. But it's a conscious decision to ignore that rule. I make lots of decisions not to use various rules in the books. However, I prefer to know they first exist, so that I can make an informed decision.

You also typed-
Your response implies you didn't bother reading the reference I provided. Though I suppose your response could just mean you think hatchlings have better metamorphosis than adults, and that you think 1st and 4th level dragons can only refer to Adult dragons, but I'd find such an interpretation rather odd.

Again that comes across as saying you did not check the rule, so are wrong.

Yes, he quoted my reference and then said it meant something else. He was wrong. He didn't have the book so he couldn't read it. I get it. But he still thought the rule meant something it did not (so what he said was wrong). I'll give a different example:

If you say "RUE has a hand to hand for dragon on page 349" and then I come along and say "No, those rules are only for humans." Then I'd be wrong. Maybe in my house rules only humans can have hand to hand, which is my right, or maybe I just don't use the "optional" hand to hand used. Maybe I went from memory or maybe I don't own the book. Regardless, to say that page 349 doesn't have a hand to hand for dragons is wrong. This is just a fact. Anyone can pick up the book and see that it's there. If someone makes the claim it's not there, or it means something different, it doesn't matter why they said it, they still said something untrue/wrong.

I replied to your post, with the the way I understand it. If i misunderstand you that can happen you only need to clear up the issue it is not a personal attack on you in any way.

Cool. Wish I thought of that. Oh ... wait ...

I'm not even sure if as a G.M. I'd use the rule in Sourcebook One (original) in my games. However, I enjoy presenting information from the books whenever possible so people can make informed decisions. Farewell and safe journeys.

No you presented it as any one not using it was wrong.

Hey, I did. Then you inferred I'm a liar, and decided to declare what I meant because you feel you know what I was trying to say better than I do. As I said before, this isn't the first time you did this to me in a thread either. So if you're not trying to launch personal attacks, then stop acting like it. If you're willing to admit there are possibilities for misunderstandings, then don't automatically revert to thinking I'm lying and that your interpretation of my post is the only possible right one.

[Odd that you accuse me of misquoting you and changing your point but are doing that in the this very post. My Argument I stated was by removing a rule from **all active books** by editing out in a revised edition it can be considered void, but as long as a rule is in any current edition of any book it can still be valid.

RUE is a revised/updated rule book of RMB. The jumping rules were removed. As for "current edition of any book," I just haven't forgotten our last encounter either.

(Note on rifts boards use rifts stats.)

So you it needs to be only Rifts when it suits your needs, but you can use any setting when it suits your needs. The irony of this specific topic is even more hilarious, since you're the one arguing a Palladium Fantasy Sourcebook (Dragons & Gods, which is clearly labeled as a PF book and found in the PF section of the PB store) is more valid than a Rifts Sourcebook (which by the way, original Sourcebook One is still available as a PDF by Palladium through DriveThruRPG, with no intention to discontinue it).

Note: I continue to wait for the link to the jumping rules on the Cutting Room Floor. I don't think they're on there like you claim (and I did look).

Anyways, farewell and safe journeys once again.

The part on rifts using rift stats on the rift boards is some one was using stats that where different than rifts stats to prove something about combat. Because they did not want to use rift stats when they where different from what he used. When there is no rule on the books in rifts then you can go beyond rifts. The book Dragons and gods may have been published for PF but it includes stats for rifts.

Look at your whole post. Not the just the part that makes it look like an attack.

I said "That means if it is still a valid rule can be called in questions."

You said "People are welcome to do so. That Doesn't make it any less accurate of a reference, which is all I presented it as.....None of that changes that it's a printed reference in an official Palladium product regarding the topic."

I was not addressing your ending but the whole post. so you said you provided it as reference. However you presented it as a rule and debated when I said it may not be valid any more. Combined with other post with judgmental undertone. No it was not a reference but a rule that you where debating for and making statements that people are wrong for not fallowing.

**Being edited out of one book that has it is not the same as being edited out of the only book that has it. (when rifts lacks rules for something then you can go beyond.) Saying people can not jump because a rule is not the same as a rule that only appeared in one book about a time limit is edited out and can be considered not part of RAW.

My statement on using rifts stats in rifts was to some one saying he used another games stats because they are easier for him so the context is important. Stats are not the same as rules-rifts tends use different stats than other lines. The order of accepted progression for RAW is active rifts books/rules then other PB games and then real world facts.

(your reference to cutting room floor is http://palladiumbooks.com/index.php?opt ... Itemid=200 number one non combat rules questions. must not have looked very hard.)

This has degraded into to close into becoming a personal attack. I am through.

Personally I can see shape change being easier for a smaller dragon like a hatchling to do than a larger dragon less difference in mass. but then again when does Mettaphysics care about that.

It can be a question is allowing it to use it X hours straight and then switch back a game breaker or over the other way.

How would a baby dragon in human form help out in a fight without revealing himself. As I recall most baby dragons do not start with spells at level 1. A human with no armor punching and taking blast in MD combat does stand out.

Or how about does the metamophisis allow for making clothing, or would the dragon be a streaker.

[Dog_O_War]

So your point is what? To agree with me in terms you prefer? You've said nothing but "Pepsi's right" in an unkind way.

Actually, this is what I said:

If you're talking real-life, there's no, "strength at resisting the kick", all there is is physics, which would see a tiny body flying backwards, dragged down by gravity.

If you're talking in-game, there is no such ability itemed as "strength at resisting the kick".

I said this in response to you saying,

So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

I asked you to provide any sort of reference other than a hand-written note from your parent or guardian as any sort of proof that this ability you seem to think exists actually does, which you've coined as "strength at resisting the kick".

But you didn't provide any sort of proof; I'll cut you a break - I'll accept a note from your parent or guardian.

Now, we'll go back a bit and find out why I've otherwise challenged what you said.

Well if the 4 pound dragon is holding to something to anchor it then yes it will not move but if it standing on the ground it is gravity that holds it in place not its PS.

So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

Same thing with the dragon. You can kick it all you want but your strength is piddly compared to it's.

Blue_Lion has otherwise stated that unless the dragon is using its strength, the only thing that is otherwise holding it in-place is gravity. This is correct - it is not otherwise resisting anything - physics would say that if you kick an unresisting 4Lb object, then you wouldn't otherwise need to compare your strength score to its, because it's not resisting.

You're now trying to state that I've said you're right. This statement, and all the statements I've otherwise said towards you have been indicative of you being anything but right.

But please, forget Newtons' third law and continue believing in "Strength at resisting the kick" instead

[Blue_Lion]

So your point is what? To agree with me in terms you prefer? You've said nothing but "Pepsi's right" in an unkind way.

Actually, this is what I said:

If you're talking real-life, there's no, "strength at resisting the kick", all there is is physics, which would see a tiny body flying backwards, dragged down by gravity.

If you're talking in-game, there is no such ability itemed as "strength at resisting the kick".

I said this in response to you saying,

So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

I asked you to provide any sort of reference other than a hand-written note from your parent or guardian as any sort of proof that this ability you seem to think exists actually does, which you've coined as "strength at resisting the kick".

But you didn't provide any sort of proof; I'll cut you a break - I'll accept a note from your parent or guardian.

Now, we'll go back a bit and find out why I've otherwise challenged what you said.

Well if the 4 pound dragon is holding to something to anchor it then yes it will not move but if it standing on the ground it is gravity that holds it in place not its PS.

So if someone walked up and kicked you, gravity is the only thing keeping you from flying backwards? Or does your strength at resisting the kick factor in?

Same thing with the dragon. You can kick it all you want but your strength is piddly compared to it's.

Blue_Lion has otherwise stated that unless the dragon is using its strength, the only thing that is otherwise holding it in-place is gravity. This is correct - it is not otherwise resisting anything - physics would say that if you kick an unresisting 4Lb object, then you wouldn't otherwise need to compare your strength score to its, because it's not resisting.

You're now trying to state that I've said you're right. This statement, and all the statements I've otherwise said towards you have been indicative of you being anything but right.

But please, forget Newtons' third law and continue believing in "Strength at resisting the kick" instead

The horse is dead Jim.

[Prysus]

Note: I'll be very curious to check out Carlotta in Rifts Vampire Sourecbook to see if the "48 hours" note is still there or not. If a lot of her write-up and/or stats are cut/paste, but that line removed, it would definitely go a further way to show intent. If it's still there, we're back to "could be an oversight or could be intentional."

i just checked. the 48 hours note is no longer present. however it still says she can only maintain it for 14 hours.

also, she was made into a Snow Lizard Dragon from RUE, instead of the non-defined dragon of the original WB1.


the fluff however stays pretty much the same, with a few additions for the new dragon type. she still disappears "for hours or days" as a way of hiding her dragon-ness from others.

Personally, i'd say that you need a "cool down period".. that the metamorphosis is taxing enough that you can't just use it again instantly.

Interesting. Appreciate it.

P.S. As for the other matter in this thread that's bordering on personal, I'll take that to PM.

[Blue_Lion]

Note: I'll be very curious to check out Carlotta in Rifts Vampire Sourecbook to see if the "48 hours" note is still there or not. If a lot of her write-up and/or stats are cut/paste, but that line removed, it would definitely go a further way to show intent. If it's still there, we're back to "could be an oversight or could be intentional."

i just checked. the 48 hours note is no longer present. however it still says she can only maintain it for 14 hours.

also, she was made into a Snow Lizard Dragon from RUE, instead of the non-defined dragon of the original WB1.


the fluff however stays pretty much the same, with a few additions for the new dragon type. she still disappears "for hours or days" as a way of hiding her dragon-ness from others.

Personally, i'd say that you need a "cool down period".. that the metamorphosis is taxing enough that you can't just use it again instantly.

Interesting. Appreciate it.

P.S. As for the other matter in this thread that's bordering on personal, I'll take that to PM.

Read your PM but I am done, once it reaches that point keeping up to long could result in hurt feelings.

I would like to know if people would allow a dragon to become clothed with its transformation though or how dragons deal with that issue in people games.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't think the metamorphisis includes clothes. I think it's pretty clear in the write up that it does not include inanimate objects.

Thus if you're metamorphing into a human, you better have some human clothes to put on.

Good point to bring up though.

[Blue_Lion]

I don't think the metamorphisis includes clothes. I think it's pretty clear in the write up that it does not include inanimate objects.

Thus if you're metamorphing into a human, you better have some human clothes to put on.

Good point to bring up though.

Trying to steer it to something productive to the original point of pretending to be something you are not.

Dragon "I am human why don't you believe me."

CS grunt- "There is snow on the ground and you are running around without any clothing, and your third leg is way to big."

[Pepsi Jedi]

Hey he's a dragon. Might be the right size.

[Blue_Lion]

Hey he's a dragon. Might be the right size.

Well he got the size from listing to guys talk about their own not seeing it, plus no shrinkage for the dragon because it is a dragon.
(Really should not have went there.)

[Razzinold]

I couldn't read what you posted because I do not have that book.

Greetings and Salutations. That's fine. I'll help the best I can (if you're further interested), though I think I covered it well enough in a previous post ...

Example (given earlier): A second level dragon hatchling dragon with 2 hours per level can only use metapmorphosis for 4 hours within a 48 hour period. So, the dragon can use metamorphosis 1.5 hours per day, and never once reach his limit. On the other hand, the dragon can use metamorphosis for 3 hours, change back to a dragon for 40 hours (43 hours total so far), then use metamorphosis again for an hour. After the hour, he'll be forced back into his true dragon form (he reached his limit of 4 hours within a 48 hour period). In addition to that, he'll now need to wait 24 hours before he can use metamorphosis again. Ergo, a 48 hour window, and a 24 hour cool down. Now, this would also mean that the dragon could use 4 hours at the start of the day, wait 24 hours, and then use it again. When he uses metamorphosis again (after only 28 hours), a new 48 hour window opens. So a dragon could burn through it quickly (and require a cool down), or use it sparingly and always remain in control.

It doesn't say anywhere in this passage about having to wait for 24 hours before being able to use this ability again. I was under the assumption, and I don't think I'm alone on this because of conversations I've had in the past with people who have played dragons, that (for example) a fourth level dragon could hold the shape for 8 hours straight if they wanted to do so, revert back to their natural form, and then change again for another 8 hours.

That is definitely one way (and a common one) to rule it. RMB, RUE, Dragons & Gods, as well as almost any other Palladium Book that discusses dragon metamorphosis doesn't mention the extent of that "2 hours per level" (or whatever other number they use instead of 2). As such, we typically need to fill in the blanks. So ruling it can be changed near constantly is a valid interpretation of the general statement the books usually provide.

I'll say on a personal note, I feel that such an interpretation makes a time limit meaningless. 2 hours, with the ability to change to reset the counter or return to dragon form and use the ability again immediately after, effectively makes the duration indefinite. So listing a duration is more of a minor annoyance than an actual limitation. That's, of course, my opinion on the matter. I also believe the ruling that as long as you keep changing forms it resets the counter uses faulty logic. I'll provide a different example.

G.M.: "Okay, your duration is almost up. You won't be able to maintain your metamorphosis much longer. You'll need to act fast if you're going to keep your true origin a secret."
Player: "I sneak into the bathroom and metamorphosis into a cat."
G.M.: "Interesting. Okay, you manage to slip into the currently empty bathroom and change into a cat. So what's your plan?"
Player: "I transform back into the human form and rejoin the party."
G.M.: "Err ... are you sure about that?"
Player: "Well, yeah, I changed to a new form, so I can last at least 6 more hours. I'm good to go."
G.M.: "As you wade back into the crowd you suddenly grow and return to your true dragon form, squashing a few party guests in the process. This should go without saying, but the guards are now onto your ruse."
Player: "But I reset my metamorphosis! No way my duration can be up yet!"
G.M.: "You were using metamorphosis as a human, right?"
Player: "Yeah."
G.M.: "And you were using metamorphosis as a cat, right?"
Player: "Yeah."
G.M.: "And you were using metamorphosis when you returned to a human, right?"
Player: "Yeah. Three different forms, each has a different duration."
G.M.: "Three forms, each using metamorphosis. The duration lists the length of metamorphosis as an ability, not how long you can use a single form. The ability never states 'per form.' Since you were always using it, the clock kept ticking."

Note: RMB and RUE don't mention any cool down period. So using those rules, as long as the character reverted to a dragon form at some point, then the counter could (in theory) reset. Even if forced into dragon form, the character could immediately use it again. Dragons & Gods mentions a cool down period for the duration being reached, but doesn't specify how long a break is required (if any) should the limit not be reached. Sourcebook One lists the duration for a 48 hour period, with a cool down period if the duration is reached.

Does the source book give a reason for the 24 hour wait period or is it a "just because we said so" rule ?

There's no explanation given. That's just the rule/extent of the power. Though, if I had to explain it, I'd say it's like flexing a muscle (magic isn't really a muscle, but it's something we humans can understand for a comparison). If you stress the muscle too long (beyond it's duration), you might pull the muscle or strain it in a way that you need time to recover from. The more experienced you get, the stronger that muscle becomes (allowing a longer duration). Someone else might have a different (or even better) explanation.

Is it the same for adult dragons ? They can hold their shape for 48 hours straight and then have to wait 24 hours before using the ability again ?

They don't mention adults (only the 2 hours per level aspect). So, if using that rule, a dragon that can use metamorphosis for 48 hours within a 48 hour period effectively has an indefinite duration.

Another thing, if I can maintain 8 hours of transformation in a 24 hour period what happens if I only transform for 4 hours in that 24 hour period, do I still have to wait 24 hours before being able to transform again ?

From what I'm reading, not unless you maxed out your duration. So, in your example ...

Day 1: You transform for 4 hours in one day.
Day 2: You transform again for 3 hours. Days 1 & 2 make 7 hours total for the 48 hour period.
Day 3: 4 more hours. Days 2 & 3 make 7 hours again for the 48 hour period.
Day 4: Another 4 hours. Days 3 & 4 make 8 hours and you hit your limit.
Day 5: You can't use metamorphosis due to the 24 hour recharge period.
Day 6: You've recovered and can use metamorphosis for up to 8 hours (or reserve it for when it's of the most use).

Note: This is using the Sourcebook One (original) rule only. Dragons & Gods mentions the cool down period being 12 hours for hatchlings and only 5 hours for adults. However, the conditions to reach that limit are unclear. Is it your hours per level in one shape for a straight duration only, or is there an unmentioned time limit within?

I'll also note that Rifts World Book 1: Vampire Kingdoms (original) does support the Sourcebook One rule. I'll address the more in another post. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

I guess having a cool down period would make sense, or there would be no point in giving the Chiang-Ku the impressive ability of indefinite time compared to other breeds having a limit.

The 'muscle flexing' part makes sense too because even the book mentions that they have to wait a few minutes when dramatically changing sizes to allow the bones time to adjust.

So I have decided that I will have some form of cool down time, now I just need to decide how long. I'm pretty sure I'm not going with the 48 hour thing, but I also don't think I'm going the slips into a phone booth for a second to do a superman quick change and reset the "timer".

[42dragon]

Don't forget that if you are using some form of the metamorphosis cool down rule (I am a fan of this by the way), that all dragons can reduce their size by as much as 60% indefinitely (D&G) which can bring most hatchlings down to the size of a large horse. That can make them much less conspicuous and easier to hide during the cool down times.

[Pepsi Jedi]

that would allow them to shift to 'dragon(albit reduced)' inside most rooms too. Sure they might have to duck but it keeps them from needing to go out side and could do this in a bedroom or something (Though a bit tough to pull off in a bathroom) Defiantely inside a house or building though.

[glitterboy2098]

Don't forget that if you are using some form of the metamorphosis cool down rule (I am a fan of this by the way), that all dragons can reduce their size by as much as 60% indefinitely (D&G) which can bring most hatchlings down to the size of a large horse. That can make them much less conspicuous and easier to hide during the cool down times.

wouldn't that be a use of the metamorphic power though? if you go the cooldown route, i'd assume that you'd get either or.. you can reduce size as long as you want, or you can do a major appearance change for X hours per level.. but after you use either you have to go through the cooldown before you can use it again.

in regards to the cooldown.. IMO you have two options here. you can do a set length, or you can do one that scales by either level or some stat.
set length would be like "must remain in their non-metamorphed form for X hours" (perhaps reduce it for sleep/meditation, like how PSi and Magic are)
while a scaling one might be "must remain in non-metamorphed form for X hours, -Y minutes per level" set up so that there is always at least some notable length of time they have to wait.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Thing is, that's adding another 'rule' to the power that simply isn't in the books.

To what end? Other than to enforce another limitation on it?

[glitterboy2098]

given that it does not say that you can immediately reuse the power either, your claim to that effect is also "adding another rule that is simply not in the books"

at this point literally any approach taken to the power's reuse duration is going to be "adding another rule that is simply not in the books". because there literally is nothing in the books about how soon you can reuse the metamorph power.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Noooo... If it doesn't say you can. You can assume you can. What you're doing is adding restrictions for no apperent reason that are not in the book.

You're given the power for the character, it's assumed you'll use it. "Oh it doesn't say you can use it again immediately" is a thinly veiled dodge. it doesn't say they can walk either but we're going to assume they can.

If there are restrictions on powers/abilities then it's incumbent on the writers to tell us. If there's not, you're just making it up. Which is fine. house rules and all but one should ask "Why". Why add bunches of restrictions to powers that aren't in the book?

[eliakon]

Noooo... If it doesn't say you can. You can assume you can. What you're doing is adding restrictions for no apperent reason that are not in the book.

You're given the power for the character, it's assumed you'll use it. "Oh it doesn't say you can use it again immediately" is a thinly veiled dodge. it doesn't say they can walk either but we're going to assume they can.

Except that
1) that is an apples to oranges comparison since there is no relationship between the two. Its a great strawman to pretend that some how a magical ability that has game stats is just like breathing...but its not.

2) it DOES have a limit. Your just arguing that the limit doesn't actually do anything. Which is a fine house rule...but again doesn't actually apply to what is written.

If there are restrictions on powers/abilities then it's incumbent on the writers to tell us. If there's not, you're just making it up. Which is fine. house rules and all but one should ask "Why". Why add bunches of restrictions to powers that aren't in the book?

We do have a limit. We know you can only metamorphosis X hours. The writers clearly told us that

In PF dragons get some other abilities that may or may not apply to Rifts.

Neither of these says anything about what limits they do not have....

[Prysus]

I guess having a cool down period would make sense, or there would be no point in giving the Chiang-Ku the impressive ability of indefinite time compared to other breeds having a limit.

Greetings and Salutations. Yeah, that's more or less my view on the matter. I don't think longer metamorphosis is game breaking (Chiang-Ku have it for dragons, Changelings have it for mortals, etc.), but I think it goes against the spirit of a duration to not have it limited in some form.

So I have decided that I will have some form of cool down time, now I just need to decide how long. I'm pretty sure I'm not going with the 48 hour thing, but I also don't think I'm going the slips into a phone booth for a second to do a superman quick change and reset the "timer".

Yeah, people like to avoid the 48 hour rule for a reason. I've been thinking about various house rules for this a bit over the last few days. While it's never come up in my games, I think if I had to make a ruling as a G.M. it would be something like ...

1: Keep the concept from Sourcebook One, and use the values from Dragons & Gods to make adjustments. So first, we look at the known quantities. Sourcebook One has a 24 hour cool down, while Dragons & Gods has a 12 hour cool down (half the time). So we take the 48 hour window, and cut that in half as well (to keep some consistency). I also think a 24 hour window is both more manageable for players (because it allows the ability to be used more) as well as the G.M. (per day tends to be easier to keep track of than per two days). Now we can also look at the bigger picture. The hatchling won't have indefinite metamorphosis until level 12 (12x2=24). Since hatchling (in general) reach adult hood around level 11, this wouldn't be a problem. Additionally, I (as an individual) don't have an issue with a level 12 character being bad arse. Note: I suspect that the reason Palladium decided upon 48 hours is to avoid a high level hatchling from having indefinite metamorphosis, but I don't know for sure.

2: I think this method might be a bit more complicated, but might be a bit more flexible and workable for a group. I'll keep the 12 hour cool down from Dragons & Gods, if the hatchling uses up the entire duration (only 5 hours for an adult). This could be removed entirely (if desired). Now, we break down cool down times for less than that. I'm thinking effectively half the time transformed. The dragon could opt to transform again before that cool down (if the maximum duration has yet to be reached), but doing so while keep the counter running. And since I'm not sure I explained that very well, I'll give an example with actual numbers.

A third level dragon hatchling with 2 hours per level of experience can metamorphosis for up to 6 hours. The hatchling uses metamorphosis for 4 hours (2 hours short of his limit). So he'd need to wait 2 hours (half of 4 is 2) to fully recharge/recover. But, an hour later, something comes up and he uses metamorphosis again. Since he didn't wait the full 2 hours, he's not recharged and will only have 2 hours remaining. The hatchling uses it for the full two hours, and as such he burns out the ability (for lack of a better term) and needs to wait 12 hours now before he can use metamorphosis again. That same dragon from, after recovering, uses metamorphosis for 1 hour, then returns to dragon form. That means his cool down is only 30 minutes. After 30 minutes, he has his full 6 hours back. Note: The dragon can use as many forms as he wants while using metamorphosis, as the number of forms isn't important, only the duration of its use.

I think the second one helps enforce the limit in the stats, while still offering some flexibility to the cool down time (since I've never actually tried to use it in a game though, I could be missing something). Anyways, those are just a couple of ideas. I haven't actually tested either one of them, but various ideas that came to mind. Those are house rule options for you to use, tweak, or ignore as you see fit. Hope they help. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[glitterboy2098]

2: I think this method might be a bit more complicated, but might be a bit more flexible and workable for a group. I'll keep the 12 hour cool down from Dragons & Gods, if the hatchling uses up the entire duration (only 5 hours for an adult). This could be removed entirely (if desired). Now, we break down cool down times for less than that. I'm thinking effectively half the time transformed. The dragon could opt to transform again before that cool down (if the maximum duration has yet to be reached), but doing so while keep the counter running. And since I'm not sure I explained that very well, I'll give an example with actual numbers.

this would be my preference, actually. short uses of a few minutes at a time basically have no cooldown to speak of. but the longer you use it, the longer you have to rest before you can use it again. which makes a nice balance between the high and low levels.. at low level you can recover quick.. but you also can't use it for very long. while at higher levels you can use the power longer.. but at the price of needing more time to recover afterwards.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Noooo... If it doesn't say you can. You can assume you can. What you're doing is adding restrictions for no apperent reason that are not in the book.

You're given the power for the character, it's assumed you'll use it. "Oh it doesn't say you can use it again immediately" is a thinly veiled dodge. it doesn't say they can walk either but we're going to assume they can.

Except that
1) that is an apples to oranges comparison since there is no relationship between the two. Its a great strawman to pretend that some how a magical ability that has game stats is just like breathing...but its not.

2) it DOES have a limit. Your just arguing that the limit doesn't actually do anything. Which is a fine house rule...but again doesn't actually apply to what is written.

If there are restrictions on powers/abilities then it's incumbent on the writers to tell us. If there's not, you're just making it up. Which is fine. house rules and all but one should ask "Why". Why add bunches of restrictions to powers that aren't in the book?

We do have a limit. We know you can only metamorphosis X hours. The writers clearly told us that

In PF dragons get some other abilities that may or may not apply to Rifts.

Neither of these says anything about what limits they do not have....

The limit I'm speaking of is "The number of times you can metamorph." not the time frame of each.
Yes they gave us a limit on how long one can hold a new form. They did not give us a limit on how often or rapid the new forms can be assumed, or the number of new forms assumed.

Adding in a waiting period isn't even hinted at in the text.

[SpiritInterface]

How would one abuse such or forcing a 10 minute wait on them prevent it? Particularly when mages with metamorphic spells can recast said spells and maintain them indefinitely (helped along by the various boosts and extra sources of PPE that are around).

When you need to maintain your disguise but time is running out, it's a lot easier to sneak away and spend only 15 seconds dragon-sized than it is to sneak away and spend only 10 minutes (or more) dragon-sized. That's the "abuse" I would look to prevent.

So again just why is that abuse? That restriction seems contrived to ensure someone playing a dragon character would be forced to be exposed to everyone as one.

And...

Dragons are supposed to be solitary and reclusive creatures. Maybe this reputation comes from the fact that hatchling and juvenile Dragons hiding until they grew to be able to maintain their disguise longer. By removing any meaningful cooling off period you are effectively removing the limitation.

If you want to play a Dragon that doesn't have to worry about the limitation have your GM give you a magical McGuffin (an item such as a ring, necklace, suppository, or a magical mark such as a tattoo, or birthmark) that allows you to ignore it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Except that the write ups say that the metamorphosis is an ability they know instinctively from birth and love to use, and enjoy doing so. That they do so as naturally as walking. It's an ability that the Palladium writers -have- made intrinsic to the creatures in question.

These aren't D&D Dragons dictated by color/metallic hue of their flesh.

Palladium Writers have said that Dragons can metamorph from birth, and do so naturally and love using the ability.

Thus it IS something meant to be used often, and extensively. The Dragons in the book masquerade as humans with little effort, and can keep the masquerade going for literal decades and in heavy combat situations. (Carlotta the White, fighting vampires for decades)

Adding restrictions to the ability that aren't in the book, is hampering what is clearly designed and straight up said to be an intrinsic and often used ability of the (fictional) creature.

To not use it would be akin to not flying, or not using your breath weapon, etc.

[Glistam]

2: I think this method might be a bit more complicated, but might be a bit more flexible and workable for a group. I'll keep the 12 hour cool down from Dragons & Gods, if the hatchling uses up the entire duration (only 5 hours for an adult). This could be removed entirely (if desired). Now, we break down cool down times for less than that. I'm thinking effectively half the time transformed. The dragon could opt to transform again before that cool down (if the maximum duration has yet to be reached), but doing so while keep the counter running. And since I'm not sure I explained that very well, I'll give an example with actual numbers.

A third level dragon hatchling with 2 hours per level of experience can metamorphosis for up to 6 hours. The hatchling uses metamorphosis for 4 hours (2 hours short of his limit). So he'd need to wait 2 hours (half of 4 is 2) to fully recharge/recover. But, an hour later, something comes up and he uses metamorphosis again. Since he didn't wait the full 2 hours, he's not recharged and will only have 2 hours remaining. The hatchling uses it for the full two hours, and as such he burns out the ability (for lack of a better term) and needs to wait 12 hours now before he can use metamorphosis again. That same dragon from, after recovering, uses metamorphosis for 1 hour, then returns to dragon form. That means his cool down is only 30 minutes. After 30 minutes, he has his full 6 hours back. Note: The dragon can use as many forms as he wants while using metamorphosis, as the number of forms isn't important, only the duration of its use.

I think the second one helps enforce the limit in the stats, while still offering some flexibility to the cool down time (since I've never actually tried to use it in a game though, I could be missing something). Anyways, those are just a couple of ideas. I haven't actually tested either one of them, but various ideas that came to mind. Those are house rule options for you to use, tweak, or ignore as you see fit. Hope they help. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

I like this idea a lot. 12 hour cooldown once the ability is exhausted, or a cooldown equal to half the time the ability was used if it's ended early to "reset" the time allowed. Fairly simple I think, and well within the spirit of the rules as far as I interpret them.

[42dragon]

Don't forget that if you are using some form of the metamorphosis cool down rule (I am a fan of this by the way), that all dragons can reduce their size by as much as 60% indefinitely (D&G) which can bring most hatchlings down to the size of a large horse. That can make them much less conspicuous and easier to hide during the cool down times.

wouldn't that be a use of the metamorphic power though? if you go the cooldown route, i'd assume that you'd get either or.. you can reduce size as long as you want, or you can do a major appearance change for X hours per level.. but after you use either you have to go through the cooldown before you can use it again.

The reduction of size is clearly labeled as a different ability and not tied to the metamorphosis ability in any way, and it is clearly identified as having no time limit.
I love this ability for the shock value when a small dragon assumes its normal size, it can often bluff its way out of trouble.

[Razzinold]

How would one abuse such or forcing a 10 minute wait on them prevent it? Particularly when mages with metamorphic spells can recast said spells and maintain them indefinitely (helped along by the various boosts and extra sources of PPE that are around).

When you need to maintain your disguise but time is running out, it's a lot easier to sneak away and spend only 15 seconds dragon-sized than it is to sneak away and spend only 10 minutes (or more) dragon-sized. That's the "abuse" I would look to prevent.

So again just why is that abuse? That restriction seems contrived to ensure someone playing a dragon character would be forced to be exposed to everyone as one.

And...

Dragons are supposed to be solitary and reclusive creatures. Maybe this reputation comes from the fact that hatchling and juvenile Dragons hiding until they grew to be able to maintain their disguise longer. By removing any meaningful cooling off period you are effectively removing the limitation.

If you want to play a Dragon that doesn't have to worry about the limitation have your GM give you a magical McGuffin (an item such as a ring, necklace, suppository, or a magical mark such as a tattoo, or birthmark) that allows you to ignore it.

Actually I am the GM and I have zero experiencing GMing a dragon and I played a chiang-ku once for a few sessions as a player and a Great Horned Dragon in an online game that lasted for a few sessions. For that game we were all powerful, and may not even have been on earth (can't remember), so I didn't bother hiding my true form.

[Razzinold]

Well if things go smoothly we will be rolling up her dragon tonight when I get home from work. With my luck after all these posts/suggestions she will end up picking a Chiang-Ku

The only reason I don't think she will is because they can't fly in their natural form.

I have another question regarding this part of the skill description:
"The metamorphosis does not instill any of the abilities of the animal,
only its appearance"

So that means if she changes into a cheetah, she doesn't get the speed of a cheetah right ?
Well if that's the case if she turns into a bird she should still be able to fly because of this quote, right ?
"Note: Regardless
of his shape, a dragon is a dragon, with all its natural powers and
abilities. So a hatchling metamorphed to look like a bunny rabbit
can still talk, cast spells, and kick with the strength of a dragon."

So if she picks a breed of dragon that can fly that would be considered a 'natural ability' so she theoretically she should retain her powers of flight.