Sdf 1 vs Mechanoid Mothership.

[say652]

Thoughts?

Both fully loaded and 100%

[say652]

One of my players brought up a great idea.

Robotech vs Mechanoids.

After thinking about it and trolling books etc, this is a great idea for a game.

I'm looking for storyline suggestions and general advice.

Thanks.

[Tiree]

Have the Mechanoids be a failed version of The Robotech Master's guardians. Basically the precursor to the Zentraedi. They became insane, and the Robotech Masters had to put them down. The Zentraedi did this with great glee, and earned their place as the military arm of the Robotech Masters.

But the Zentraedi didn't get them all, there was a mothership that survived... how/what/when is up to you. But now they have come back, with a vengeance. Bigger, better, and Meaner (with MDC), and they are out to destroy all Humanoid Life.

[ShadowLogan]

Thoughts?

Both fully loaded and 100%

SDF-1 even fully loaded vs a Mechnoid Mothership? Assuming MDC conversions in Rifts Source Book 1 maintain for other hardware in Mechanoid series, then... Mechanoid Mothership for these reasons:
1. it literally carves up planets "for breakfast", the SDF-1 has nothing that can even compare
2. sheer numbers, a Mechanoid Mothership is huge (one type is NA-continent, the SDF-1 is only a mile long), SDF-1's troops will be over whelmed as a result, if the numbers don't over whelm them in the short run it will in the long run.
3. unlike the Zentreadi, the Mechanoids have no reason "to hold back"
4. while the SDF-1 did destroy Dolza's Space Station Fortress (which is reported to fit easily into North American Continent), it had inside information that helped it gain superiority (not to mention a 1million fleet to help back it up once the Zentreadi decided to take off the kid-gloves which helped to reduce the odds down to roughly 4:1, the fortress itself likely makes it higher)

As for inserting them into a RT campaign. I wouldn't go with the idea they are Tirolian offshoots. That doesn't seem to be in keeping with what we know of RT canon (show, Yune, RPG Editions, etc) and Zentreadi history. They could be adapted to flesh out the Haydonites pretty easily until more resources become available, or they could be another race that is encountered (if the Mechanoids are expanding/roving then it is possible they just now arrive in the RT Galaxy(s).

[filo_clarke]

The SDF-1 is 1.2 km long, about the same size as a Mechanoid Digger.
The Mechanoid Mothership is 89,000 km long. For comparison, the Planet Earth only has a diameter of 12,750 km. The Mechanoid Mothership is gigantic on an entirely new scale. Synchro cannons punch large craters into the planet's surface during the Macross series, these would be like pinpricks to something the size of the Mechanoid Mothership.

The SDF-1 has, in total 548 different fighters/veritech/destroids
The Deadalus has 184 different fighter craft (yes, I'm including helicopters)
The Prometheus has 132 different fighter craft
This gives the SDF-1 a total complement of 864 combat craft

The Mechanoid Mothership has:
600 million Runts
280 million Thinmen
100 million Skimmers
20 million Wasps
2 million Brutes
1.4 million Runners
600 thousand Brains
40 thousand Mantis
10 thousand Diggers
That is over 1 Billion combat units! That would equal about 1.15 MILLION Mechanoid combat units per every ONE Robotech combat unit.

Heck, just a regular Mechanoid Battle Cruiser is 19 km long and has 100 thousand Wasps (among other troops), or roughly 115 Wasps per Robotech combat unit. I don't really like the SDF-1's odds against a single Battle Cruiser, much less an entire Mothership.


Edit: Oooh, I forgot, ALL of the Mechanoids are Psychic! This means a massive bonus due to things like Sixth Sense, Clairvoyance, Precognition et. al. Also, things like Telemechanics, Telemechanic Possession and other creative powers would put a BIG spin on a regular battle.

[say652]

This ties into my Game I am playing actually.

I'm working on, while the team is in Atlantis, a ten mile Rift opens over the continent.

The plan is Hijack and Win/Flee.

Specifically for damage.
The main weapon states kills what ever it hits.

[filo_clarke]

Specifically for damage.
The main weapon states kills what ever it hits.

The weapon states that when used against a planet, it leaves craters. Even if the crater (beam width) is 3.2 km wide, this is basically a pinprick against something half the diameter as the planet Jupiter.

[guardiandashi]

Specifically for damage.
The main weapon states kills what ever it hits.

The weapon states that when used against a planet, it leaves craters. Even if the crater (beam width) is 3.2 km wide, this is basically a pinprick against something half the diameter as the planet Jupiter.

against non planetary targets the reflex cannons (and the robotech motherships fusion beams) absolutely destroy starships in a beam area ~2 miles wide and 60,000 miles long.
they never actually give the sdf-1/3 main gun an alternate damage code.

in the (old) southern cross book the masters mothership main gun the electro-magnetic fission beam (very similar to the sdf-1's main gun) fires a beam 2 miles wide and 100,000 miles long,
damage code absolutely destroys everything in its path regardless of MDC, against a planet does ~4D6 X one million mdc, and leaves a massive crater 2d4x 10 miles round, and 6D6 x 100 feet deep.

so it depends on how you interpret it...
option 1 absolutely destroys the mothership (not very likely IMO)
option 2 absolutely destroys a cylinder corresponding to the beam ~2miles wide and 60-120k miles long (IMO a compromise answer more likely)
option 3 blows large craters doing several million mdc ~4d6 million per shot and penetrating 6d6 x100 feet worth of solid material, note because of the fact that the mothership is a manufactured structure it is likely to contain open spaces, decks and the like which IMO would NOT count towards the depth of blast penetration IE a shot hits and blows through 100feet of hull, then crosses 50feet of a deck, then 100feet of "floor" then another 50ft deck then .... (the 100feet of deck would not be subtracted form the penetration so the crater is currently only 200 feet (effective) deep not 300ft )

[Riftmaker]

that main gun on the sdf 1 kills anything it can take a mother ship

[say652]

That's the point Sifu brought up.
Canon says one hit kills anything.

I said what about Cormal??
He replies "well according to Canon..."

[taalismn]

SDF-1 might do critical damage to the MMship, but the HORDE of wasps and secondary craft(which I'd count as shipboard weapons) is going to overwhelm and EAT the SDF-1 unless they Fold out IMMEDIATELY. Quantity has a quality all its own.
Frankly, though, I'd think that to one-shot the MMship, the SDF-1's going to have to be at one lucky firing angle to hit a critical system or do enough area effect damage to kill it outright.

[say652]

I was going to convert the wiki version with the sixteen weapons to gigadamage.

But then the Canon as written argument began.

[Riftmaker]

So what we have here are an unstoppable force (SFD-1 main cannon) and an immovable object (Mech mother ship able to eat planet's/stars and kicked Posidens ass).

In the end its up to the story you and your players are telling. No matter how off the wall this thread gets remember that.

As for me I'd say the ship could take the hit and be crippled the gash in the side revealing the mother ships power core. Forcing SFD 1 to scrambled fighters starwars style to go in for the kill shot. Lots of wasp and defence's in the way.

[The Beast]

SDF-1 might do critical damage to the MMship, but the HORDE of wasps and secondary craft(which I'd count as shipboard weapons) is going to overwhelm and EAT the SDF-1 unless they Fold out IMMEDIATELY. Quantity has a quality all its own.
Frankly, though, I'd think that to one-shot the MMship, the SDF-1's going to have to be at one lucky firing angle to hit a critical system or do enough area effect damage to kill it outright.

Even if they can fold immediately after firing the main guns (I'm not sure if they can or not), IIRC, the space fold takes everything within a mile or two mile radius. Any wasps in the radius will be taken along with them (though it could be a much more manageable number).

[say652]

The storyline is some nice guy opened a ten mile rift over Atlantis, mechanoids start streaming out.

Team in the market using the chaos as cover hijack the Sdf 1 to fight back and escape.

When they fold I'm having them ejected from the ship.

So a miles worth of wasps would be a great parting gift.

[Seto Kaiba]

Even if they can fold immediately after firing the main guns (I'm not sure if they can or not), [...]

I'm not aware of anything that says that they can't, in Robotech or the Macross OSM... but they might not go more than a dozen light years or so. In Macross it's technically possible to fire the main gun while emerging from a fold jump (or potentially entering one).

IIRC, the space fold takes everything within a mile or two mile radius. Any wasps in the radius will be taken along with them (though it could be a much more manageable number).

Not in normal operation, no... the accidental creation of a fold effect miles in diameter was anomalous behavior. In Robotech or the Macross OSM, a fold effect can be made as large or as small as necessary to encompass either just the ship generating it or extend it across multiple other ships, groups of fighters, etc. The reason for the fold accident differs between the versions, but either way it was definitely not normal operation.

[slade the sniper]

Just by numbers, the Mechanoids Mothership is a superior ship to the SDF-1. That means that in a straight fight with no advantage to either side, the mothership will win. However, due to the fact that those types of engagements rarely happen and the SDF-1 is commanded by a competent, if somewhat green, crew at the beginning of the series, I would give 1/10 odds of an SDF-1 victory. At the end of the series, post Rain of Death, the SDF-1 would have a 3/10 chance of winning (whatever that could mean other than a straight up fight) against the mothership.

I do like the idea of the Mechanoids being the Haydonite progenitor/splinter race.

-STS

[jaymz]

I would use the numbers for when firing at a planet with the SDF-1 main gun since the mother ship is supposedly continental sized.

[filo_clarke]

I would use the numbers for when firing at a planet with the SDF-1 main gun since the mother ship is supposedly continental sized.

Oh, it is MUCH, MUCH bigger than continental size. It falls in between the planet Jupiter and the planet Earth. The planet earth has a diameter of 12,750 km, while the mothership is 89,000 km long. No, this thing dwarfs most planets in our solar system.

I don't think the SDF-1 has a prayer.

[taalismn]

I would use the numbers for when firing at a planet with the SDF-1 main gun since the mother ship is supposedly continental sized.

Oh, it is MUCH, MUCH bigger than continental size. It falls in between the planet Jupiter and the planet Earth. The planet earth has a diameter of 12,750 km, while the mothership is 89,000 km long. No, this thing dwarfs most planets in our solar system.

I don't think the SDF-1 has a prayer.

It's a testament to Mechanoid superSCIENCE that all that mass retains a roughly rectangular shape and not implode into a spherical mass.
#"UGH!!! THE TREACHEROUS HUMANOIDS HAVE INVOKED THE LAWS OF PHYSICS!!!! MICROFRACTURES IN THE HULL EVERYWHERE!!!! WE'RE BREAKING UP!!!"#

[jaymz]

I would use the numbers for when firing at a planet with the SDF-1 main gun since the mother ship is supposedly continental sized.

Oh, it is MUCH, MUCH bigger than continental size. It falls in between the planet Jupiter and the planet Earth. The planet earth has a diameter of 12,750 km, while the mothership is 89,000 km long. No, this thing dwarfs most planets in our solar system.

I don't think the SDF-1 has a prayer.

In case you missed it the point was it is to big to be treated like a "ship" in regards to the sdf-1s main gun thus as I already said above, I would use the damage against a planet when firing on the mothership.

I was ballparking size I am on my phone.

[The Beast]

I would use the numbers for when firing at a planet with the SDF-1 main gun since the mother ship is supposedly continental sized.

Oh, it is MUCH, MUCH bigger than continental size. It falls in between the planet Jupiter and the planet Earth. The planet earth has a diameter of 12,750 km, while the mothership is 89,000 km long. No, this thing dwarfs most planets in our solar system.

I don't think the SDF-1 has a prayer.

I think you'd want to use the total surface area instead of just length. Total surface area = 368,000,000 square km, which makes it smaller in size compared to Venus. (Surface Area of the Planets and Sun.)

Regardless, I think the SDF-1 alone would likely just be able to slow down the advance of a mothership before either being destroyed or forced to withdraw.

(Side Note: I think the actual number we'd want to use is tonnage since it is a ship, and that's one of the measurements [the primary one?] used in the real world to determine how much of a threat a military vessel is. Unfortunately, AFAIK, Palladium never provided that number, nor do I know how to calculate it using the information Palladium did provide.)

[Seto Kaiba]

(Side Note: I think the actual number we'd want to use is tonnage since it is a ship, and that's one of the measurements [the primary one?] used in the real world to determine how much of a threat a military vessel is. Unfortunately, AFAIK, Palladium never provided that number, nor do I know how to calculate it using the information Palladium did provide.)

Normally, military vessels are measured in terms of their displacement tonnage (the weight of the water they displace while floating) when the ship is fully manned, fueled, armed, and carrying all the various and sundry supplies and provisions necessary for wartime operations. This is usually called its "Standard Displacement" (or "Washington Displacement").

Probably not the most useful of metrics for spacecraft, though, as they're not really concerned with buoyancy... though Macross does often list starship in terms of displacement, because many of them are also capable of operating as seagoing vessels. The displacement of a planet-sized warship would, however, be almost incalculably vast.

[glitterboy2098]

i think that no matter how you figure it, the nearest comparison to a Mechanoids mothership is Dolza's base-thing. at least when discussing actual combat craft.

i think a battle between a Mechanoids mothership and Breetai's million ship fleet might be entertaining though.

[taalismn]

i think that no matter how you figure it, the nearest comparison to a Mechanoids mothership is Dolza's base-thing. at least when discussing actual combat craft.

i think a battle between a Mechanoids mothership and Breetai's million ship fleet might be entertaining though.

Make it the Grand Fleet for real entertainment.
So many(TOO many) moving parts to keep track of.

[Jefffar]

I think Mass (rather than displacement) is probably a good rough guage for spacecraft power as it provides a rough idea of how much armour, weapons, propulsion systems, etc are carried on the craft.

[The Beast]

I think Mass (rather than displacement) is probably a good rough guage for spacecraft power as it provides a rough idea of how much armour, weapons, propulsion systems, etc are carried on the craft.

Well the weight of the assault unit is listed as one million tons. I don't see a weight listed for the rest of the mothership.

[Seto Kaiba]

I think Mass (rather than displacement) is probably a good rough guage for spacecraft power as it provides a rough idea of how much armour, weapons, propulsion systems, etc are carried on the craft.

Depends on the series, really... probably not a particularly good metric for Macross or Robotech, as the former went with displacement masses for most of its ships and the latter copied those displacement masses as though they were just the ship's mass instead. Particularly in Macross (and Robotech's adaptation of same) there's very little correlation between a ship's mass and its firepower. (The most heavily armed ships in the original series are anywhere from 1-3 orders of magnitude lighter than the most massive regular warships.)

[ShadowLogan]

I think Mass (rather than displacement) is probably a good rough guage for spacecraft power as it provides a rough idea of how much armour, weapons, propulsion systems, etc are carried on the craft.

I'm not so sure about that. The mass might give an idea of much punishment it can take (in game terms), but as far as weapons and propulsion are concerned not likely. Propulsion isn't going to be really gauged by mass, since more efficient drives use less mass for propellant (you need other factors to determine propulsion capability IMHO).

The Tokagawa and the SDF-1 are similarly sized, but the SDF-1 is more massive (and that may or may not count the carrier arms), but is less heavily armed than the SDF-1, but carries more fighters. I'm going off the old Infopedia pages here. That is just for example.

We also have to consider that ships are going to be classified more by expected role than anything else w/n RT given Zentreadi/Master "super-sized" ships that don't really fit w/Terran classifications if we use their mass/size. Then there is even the possibility of era issues within a given classification isn't necessarily uniformly applied (ex. Ikazuchi is a large cruiser with ~x3 the mass of a Tri-Star which is also a large cruiser).