Revisiting the basic premise of the 1E/Ep84 "Vindicator"

[ShadowLogan]

NOTE: I know this can be a controversial topic, so I am going to lay down that we are assuming that the animation does in fact, in at least two scenes, show a "giant Shadow Alpha" in Ep84. Personally I think it doesn't exist because when using multiple demensions from a known object it falls apart, but for the purposes here... However a recent IMU build got me thinking along these lines, so I am bringing it back up.

The 1E RPG had the view that it was a heavily modified VF-1 family member (probably a stretch on several fronts), even though it looks like it belongs in the Alpha Fighter family based on the animation in two scenes (at least) where the "Alpha" appears to be larger than it should be with concern for other reference objects in the shot. Some want to view this as an example of scaling up the overall Alpha design, but that approach does raises issues. However there may be a simpler explanation without resorting to animation error: Question could we be seeing a member of the VF-X-5/MBR-10/MBR-12 Condor family of mecha and not an Alpha?.

Why do I think this? Well:
-RobotechResearch estimates the height of the mecha in question at around 12.25m based on a collision with a Shocktrooper, and 10.5m based on the Cyclone in the foreground (perspective/distance explaining the difference in the two). This is a fan estimate, one that can be duplicated using known values of the reference objects. Now perspective does play a hand here, so the size would actually be bigger I think than what is calculated.
-Officially the Condor Battloid is 12.8m tall (matching the VF-1 battloid height) in the 2E RPG (the only place its size is given AFAIK for RT).
-The Condor does share several major design aesthetic similarities to the Alpha, even being 50% bigger
-Condor is a ground assault unit, which is how we see the mecha actually used in this case
-According to Lunk he thought the UEEF had exhausted its supply of Shadow Fighters in a comment to the Regis/Group, which does seem to be the case that no Shadow Alphas or Betas are part of the 1st wave to attack Reflex Point by Harrignton (it would make sense to send them in ahead of the non-cloaked mecha I would think), but at the "giants" do take part in the battle before they gain entry to RP in Ep84.
-UEEF Marines has the Monster Destroid with parts that resemble those from an Alpha (and it is listed as being bigger than an Alpha) and the smaller Golem Battloid

So if the 2E RPG is correct about the size, that means the UEEF was producing parts that can could be viewed as being for a "giant Alpha" (maybe even "dwarf Alpha", and if they can make some they can make all (IMHO). The Condor's size in the animation itself can not be determined given a lack of reference objects in the 85ep, and the Invasion Comic Series doesn't help either suffering from perspective to (IINM), IINM LLA OVA doesn't help either...

Now there are a few main issues relating to the "giant" and the Condor as depicted in various canon sources:
-the shoulder/upper-arm connector to the chest intake is a feature not present
-the design of the foot
-the design of the knee guard
-the "snout" & "backpack" (not to be confused with what appears to be the detachable flight modules in LLA/85ep)
-the hand design

Based on the Alpha Fighter family and various changes made between recognized models in that family, like:
-the hands on the Shadow/non-shadow (3-finger vs 5-finger)
-foot on the drone/manned (drone seems more in line with the VF-1 or Beta with the others being like the AGAC, Logan, VHT-1/2 like)
-the drone having a radically altered intake/shoulder design as it has flip-top launchers not present on the manned version likely had to alter the shoulder connection
-lack of a standard head module (the four different versions on the manned model, the drone, plus a "big brain" feature seen on one or two in Point K)
-the removal of the VTOL thrusters and shoulder sensor pod (shadow vs non-shadow)
-the drone's battloid mode sports an extensive remodelling on the centreline chest/head area not seen on other Alphas, this also seems to extend back to the cockpit/nose section when it folds back
-even altered aerodynamics (Z) and avionics/hardware (H and Z)
-the Genia prototype seen in FTS graphic novel/comic series appears to have intakes on the upper arm where it connects to the body in fighter mode
-at least some of the UEEF Destroids in Marines appear to be based in-part on the Alpha (I'm going of Chuck's Deviant Art page at the moment), one of which sports a Condor "snout" (and it is listed as to small to be a Condor).

These extensive design changes over the course of the Alpha Family's life I think would allow for the Condor family to have similar members that feature extensive alterations as noted previously, beyond just dropping the transformation in the VF-X-5 to yield up the MBR-10 and MBR-12 Mk II designs (yes the text in the main book mentions all 3, plus an XR-10A in my copy). The resulting design is likely not MBR-10 or MBR-12, possibly something else and it may have changed names. None of which necessarily has to conflict with the 2E RPG presentation of the Condor mecha being phased out, as it could be viewed as applying to that particular variant (MBR-12 Mk II) and not the proposed "Vindicator" variant seen in the animation or other variants that might be out there.

So is it reasonable that the "giant Alpha" we see in Ep84 that is the inspiration of the VF-1V Vindicator from the 1E RPG, is related not to the Alpha at all but rather the Condor?

[Arnie100]

An upgraded Condor with an Alpha head that still has its transformation capabilities? Or ditch the transformation and leave it as a battloid? Would you make it one of the UEEF's first attempts at ingegrating Shadow technology into human mecha?

[taalismn]

An upgraded Condor with an Alpha head that still has its transformation capabilities? Or ditch the transformation and leave it as a battloid? Would you make it one of the UEEF's first attempts at ingegrating Shadow technology into human mecha?

Would make sense, but would they commit the testbed design to actual combat? Is the UEDF that strapped for material during the Liberation of Earth that they would use a design that's already showing its age against the Invid when they got the more agile Shadowfighters in production?

[eliakon]

An upgraded Condor with an Alpha head that still has its transformation capabilities? Or ditch the transformation and leave it as a battloid? Would you make it one of the UEEF's first attempts at ingegrating Shadow technology into human mecha?

Would make sense, but would they commit the testbed design to actual combat? Is the UEDF that strapped for material during the Liberation of Earth that they would use a design that's already showing its age against the Invid when they got the more agile Shadowfighters in production?

They might....
The question is one of what is the bottle neck? Mecha or People.
If they have more pilots then Mecha then it is possible that for a major "All in" operation that they might mobilize/remobilize anything they can put their hands on so as to be able to project the maximum possible firepower.

If their production has outstripped their training then they would be foolish to use anything but their best units (under most circumstances)
However, even in such a situation it might be useful to use unique older models in some unique situations. The one that presents first is that if a specific test pilot has used this one mecha extensively they may be an ace with this one unit. If so then you might loose out even if you give that pilot a 'better' mecha if they can't use it as well as their old unit.

[ShadowLogan]

An upgraded Condor with an Alpha head that still has its transformation capabilities? Or ditch the transformation and leave it as a battloid? Would you make it one of the UEEF's first attempts at ingegrating Shadow technology into human mecha?

An upgraded/modified Condor with an Alpha-esque head yes.

Personally I'm not sure if I'd want it to be a transformable veritech or a non-transformable battloid. It could go either way, but if we are keeping it to the Condor family, I'd suspect it would be an nt-battloid since the VF-X-5 was shelved. A VF-X-5 type platform might have negated the need for Shadow Alphas and Betas if available, as it was a competitor to the Beta originally (and it likely had better aerodynamics)

While the mecha is painted to look like a Shadow equipped mecha, it doesn't necessarily mean it is given we see VR-038/052s in Ep83 with no indication they have Shadow systems. I would also think that if they had Shadow Systems they would have been deployed first with the Cyclones and Alphas coming in from behind and not "leap frogging" the Cyclones and following the Alphas (two of which rammed Reflex Point's barrier shield).

As for what the UEEF first attempted to integrate Shadow Technology with, are we talking UEEF proper or Edwards 5th Column? The UEEF proper I don't think would have a need to use it as a test bed as they could start where Edwards left off, though Edwards 5th Column might have (which the UEEF could have recovered).

Would make sense, but would they commit the testbed design to actual combat? Is the UEDF that strapped for material during the Liberation of Earth that they would use a design that's already showing its age against the Invid when they got the more agile Shadowfighters in production?

While this mecha could be a testbed design, that doesn't mean it couldn't have moved to production/operational status. The UEEF did deploy the small-scale mobile Syncro-Cannon in the previous episode.

The UEEF IIRC is in a do-or-die situation given the authority was given to use Neutron-S Missiles for scorched Earth (under standment given TSC). It should also be noted these mecha are using Destabilizers to punch a hole in Reflex Point's barrier shield (which they do). Those guns are huge affairs, so they might be a practical choice for their deployment given the UEEF seems to like to avoid putting pilots into the Beta Fighter (which is taller than a Condor by 3ft) in the animation.

[rem1093]

You could use the new Monster. Just change the arms with a hand type. Also if you need space flight you could change the heavy cannons with a Super Fast pack type booster.
As a side note, since the new Destoids are all built off the Alpha design. Anybody body else wounder why they don't have some variation, of its missile system? Especially the leg and shoulder launchers.

[Pouncer]

You could use the new Monster. Just change the arms with a hand type. Also if you need space flight you could change the heavy cannons with a Super Fast pack type booster.
As a side note, since the new Destoids are all built off the Alpha design. Anybody body else wounder why they don't have some variation, of its missile system? Especially the leg and shoulder launchers.

I figure the behind the scenes reason was to make them more "obsolete" to make it easier to explain their retirement. I don't buy that for a minute after looking at them and comparing them to the more "popcorn" nature of the Cyclone, so I spent a little time coming up with my own mods to the new Destroids.

Tomahawk/Excalibur
Each shoulder adds the Alpha's SRM 8 packs. Each leg adds the four launchers from the Bioroid Interceptor but carrying 5 mini missiles in each pod (total of 20 per leg).

Defender/Raidar X
I figure those shoulders are full of heat dissipation systems for the laser arm so no missiles there. Instead the legs get the SRM launchers from the Bioroid Interceptor for 16 missiles per leg.

Phalanx/Longbow
Add the leg launchers from the Bioroid Interceptor again.

Spartan/Gladiator
Like the Tomahawk, 8 SRMs to the shoulders and 20 mini missiles per leg.

Monster/Koromon
This thing is a beast to begin with weapon wise, but see those cute little doors on the leg pods? Four doors per leg, 4 SRMs per door, each with 8 more missiles in the magazine. A "defensive" add on to make it easier for the Koromon to deal with fighting that gets too close to it.

-POUNCER

[rem1093]

You could use the new Monster. Just change the arms with a hand type. Also if you need space flight you could change the heavy cannons with a Super Fast pack type booster.
As a side note, since the new Destoids are all built off the Alpha design. Anybody body else wounder why they don't have some variation, of its missile system? Especially the leg and shoulder launchers.

I figure the behind the scenes reason was to make them more "obsolete" to make it easier to explain their retirement. I don't buy that for a minute after looking at them and comparing them to the more "popcorn" nature of the Cyclone, so I spent a little time coming up with my own mods to the new Destroids.

Tomahawk/Excalibur
Each shoulder adds the Alpha's SRM 8 packs. Each leg adds the four launchers from the Bioroid Interceptor but carrying 5 mini missiles in each pod (total of 20 per leg).

Defender/Raidar X
I figure those shoulders are full of heat dissipation systems for the laser arm so no missiles there. Instead the legs get the SRM launchers from the Bioroid Interceptor for 16 missiles per leg.

Phalanx/Longbow
Add the leg launchers from the Bioroid Interceptor again.

Spartan/Gladiator
Like the Tomahawk, 8 SRMs to the shoulders and 20 mini missiles per leg.

Monster/Koromon
This thing is a beast to begin with weapon wise, but see those cute little doors on the leg pods? Four doors per leg, 4 SRMs per door, each with 8 more missiles in the magazine. A "defensive" add on to make it easier for the Koromon to deal with fighting that gets too close to it.

-POUNCER

I like that you gave them a good mix of both short and mini missiles. I am surprised you didn't do anything for the Zent pods with those Alpha shoulders. I would go with mini missiles for the Assault pod and short with the Officer pod.

I didn't like the hole retirement or obsolete, thing at all. I just use the CVR's and Cyclones as Marine spec. designs. I did mod some things.
Both the Tomahawk and the Spartan have hover jets in their legs. Originally for sub-orbital combat drops. They can also be used for limited hovering and jetting across water. I also switched the Tomahawk's missiles, and increased the payload of the mini missiles.

Also both space Cyclones have the same flight speed in both modes. This is just something that didn't make sense, that the same engine putting out the same thrust, would change max speed by mode.

[Pouncer]

I like that you gave them a good mix of both short and mini missiles. I am surprised you didn't do anything for the Zent pods with those Alpha shoulders. I would go with mini missiles for the Assault pod and short with the Officer pod.

I did consider it, but figured as a holdover from the Anti Zent paranoia of the command structure (as I used in my personal upgrades to the Sentinels Zent pods) would prevent too many missile weapons on them. However, maybe as upgrade modules later in the war as Zent and human integration increased.

I didn't like the hole retirement or obsolete, thing at all. I just use the CVR's and Cyclones as Marine spec. designs. I did mod some things.
Both the Tomahawk and the Spartan have hover jets in their legs. Originally for sub-orbital combat drops. They can also be used for limited hovering and jetting across water. I also switched the Tomahawk's missiles, and increased the payload of the mini missiles.

The way I figured it, the larger number of mini missiles actually make sense on the Destroids. The SRMs are for anti-aircraft and open field combat, supplementing the big guns. In close and especially when dealing with ground clutter against surface forces the shorter ranged Minis, with their roughly as damaging warheads, are the right fit for the mecha.

As for drops, I borrowed from that other giant robot game and materials in the Southern Cross book and just went with drop packs, disposable thruster add-ons that allow the mecha to make safe landfall from orbit if necessary.

Also both space Cyclones have the same flight speed in both modes. This is just something that didn't make sense, that the same engine putting out the same thrust, would change max speed by mode.

I can see that for space and the slow down in armor mode as more of an atmospheric issue due to changes in drag.

-POUNCER

[rem1093]

I like that you gave them a good mix of both short and mini missiles. I am surprised you didn't do anything for the Zent pods with those Alpha shoulders. I would go with mini missiles for the Assault pod and short with the Officer pod.

I did consider it, but figured as a holdover from the Anti Zent paranoia of the command structure (as I used in my personal upgrades to the Sentinels Zent pods) would prevent too many missile weapons on them. However, maybe as upgrade modules later in the war as Zent and human integration increased.

I didn't like the hole retirement or obsolete, thing at all. I just use the CVR's and Cyclones as Marine spec. designs. I did mod some things.
Both the Tomahawk and the Spartan have hover jets in their legs. Originally for sub-orbital combat drops. They can also be used for limited hovering and jetting across water. I also switched the Tomahawk's missiles, and increased the payload of the mini missiles.

The way I figured it, the larger number of mini missiles actually make sense on the Destroids. The SRMs are for anti-aircraft and open field combat, supplementing the big guns. In close and especially when dealing with ground clutter against surface forces the shorter ranged Minis, with their roughly as damaging warheads, are the right fit for the mecha.

As for drops, I borrowed from that other giant robot game and materials in the Southern Cross book and just went with drop packs, disposable thruster add-ons that allow the mecha to make safe landfall from orbit if necessary.

Also both space Cyclones have the same flight speed in both modes. This is just something that didn't make sense, that the same engine putting out the same thrust, would change max speed by mode.

I can see that for space and the slow down in armor mode as more of an atmospheric issue due to changes in drag.

-POUNCER

You can fit all 18 mini-missiles in the top launcher, (3 rows of 6). My problem is the chest launchers, they don't scale right. How can a launcher that it a little bigger (a single mini-missile) then the ones in the Cyclone, in the body of a mecha three TIMES its size, have blast covers so big that they block the to launchers. The other thing it that if you use the pic, (I know, pic don't always match write up. But it is just so good.) that the missiles look to be the size of the medium range missiles from under the Alpha.

[Pouncer]

You can fit all 18 mini-missiles in the top launcher, (3 rows of 6). My problem is the chest launchers, they don't scale right. How can a launcher that it a little bigger (a single mini-missile) then the ones in the Cyclone, in the body of a mecha three TIMES its size, have blast covers so big that they block the to launchers. The other thing it that if you use the pic, (I know, pic don't always match write up. But it is just so good.) that the missiles look to be the size of the medium range missiles from under the Alpha.

For me this was pretty easy, those aren't mini missiles that are anything like those on the Cyclone. They appear to be holdovers from the generation 1 designs, as seen on the original Tomahawk. Probably a holdover from a large stockpile of the originals or something of a holdover due to the G2 destroids being designed well before the cyclones and thus lacking the integration of the newer, smaller missiles.

Perhaps the improvements in SRM tech, making them smaller for the Alphas, well predated the same reduction in size for the Mini Missiles causing the new SRMs to be only a little bigger than the older Minis.

-POUNCER

[ShadowLogan]

You can fit all 18 mini-missiles in the top launcher, (3 rows of 6). My problem is the chest launchers, they don't scale right. How can a launcher that it a little bigger (a single mini-missile) then the ones in the Cyclone, in the body of a mecha three TIMES its size, have blast covers so big that they block the to launchers. The other thing it that if you use the pic, (I know, pic don't always match write up. But it is just so good.) that the missiles look to be the size of the medium range missiles from under the Alpha.

For me this was pretty easy, those aren't mini missiles that are anything like those on the Cyclone. They appear to be holdovers from the generation 1 designs, as seen on the original Tomahawk. Probably a holdover from a large stockpile of the originals or something of a holdover due to the G2 destroids being designed well before the cyclones and thus lacking the integration of the newer, smaller missiles.

Perhaps the improvements in SRM tech, making them smaller for the Alphas, well predated the same reduction in size for the Mini Missiles causing the new SRMs to be only a little bigger than the older Minis.

-POUNCER

A few ideas of my own here:
-the missiles in question are firing Zentreadi missiles, their Mini's come in 103mm size, which is much larger than the Cyclone's 60mm or Alpha's 78mm. There should also be a stockpile of them I would think at the 1RW's end
-they aren't missile launchers, but rather 180mm motar tubes similar to the TZ-IV cluster on 1st gen destroids (and single shot launchers)

[rem1093]

It would not make any sense to to use an older, outdated, less powerful, less capable missile system. If you have the newer missiles you would use them. Also i do think the new short range missiles are about the size of the older mini's. The scary thing is that a long time ago i scaled an old model of an Alpha, to get the size. They cam out to be about the size of the Battlers forearm launcher.

[ShadowLogan]

Officially the Alpha's missiles are 190mm in diameter, or 19cm wide or ~7.5" which would seem about right for the GR-97 IINM.

I'm not so sure about passing over the older outdated missiles for newer ones, IF one buys into the keeping the Zentreadi mecha with limited fire power. It should also be remembered that the Zentreadi pods where designed to give the Zentreadi pilots a familiar feel, so adapting to use stock piles of their missiles would just be another facet of that line of thinking. I also wouldn't be to sure to dismiss the Zentreadi hardware either, as it could still be considered more advanced than terran missiles.

[Pouncer]

Officially the Alpha's missiles are 190mm in diameter, or 19cm wide or ~7.5" which would seem about right for the GR-97 IINM.

I'm not so sure about passing over the older outdated missiles for newer ones, IF one buys into the keeping the Zentreadi mecha with limited fire power. It should also be remembered that the Zentreadi pods where designed to give the Zentreadi pilots a familiar feel, so adapting to use stock piles of their missiles would just be another facet of that line of thinking. I also wouldn't be to sure to dismiss the Zentreadi hardware either, as it could still be considered more advanced than terran missiles.

I figure the Zent missiles weren't used due to the control systems of the new pods being designed by humans, they'd most likely stick to their own programming and control schemes that wouldn't be compatible with the Zent missiles.

It would be smarter to develop an interface to overcome this, but we are dealing with humans after all.

-POUNCER

[ShadowLogan]

I figure the Zent missiles weren't used due to the control systems of the new pods being designed by humans, they'd most likely stick to their own programming and control schemes that wouldn't be compatible with the Zent missiles.

My understanding (from 1E, don't have the 2E Marines book) is that the Zentreadi mecha, while designed by humans is still intended to mimic their original hardware in terms of operational interface (just rescaled). That means that they will have 'familiar' control schemes to the Zentreadi hardware and not Terran. Software in some respects is still doable when you get down to it as we can do it in real life (I can and have run several applications intended for Windows under Linux with the help of a software compatibility layer, and there is an extensive database online that increases the count many times over) so I don't see why it could not be done with the Zentreadi hardware. Then again, humans could "update" the Zentreadi missiles with human programing, there is no reason they have to remain on Zentreadi Missile OS version ##.## and can't get a software "upgrade" so they can better communicate with human designed systems.

[Pouncer]

I figure the Zent missiles weren't used due to the control systems of the new pods being designed by humans, they'd most likely stick to their own programming and control schemes that wouldn't be compatible with the Zent missiles.

My understanding (from 1E, don't have the 2E Marines book) is that the Zentreadi mecha, while designed by humans is still intended to mimic their original hardware in terms of operational interface (just rescaled). That means that they will have 'familiar' control schemes to the Zentreadi hardware and not Terran. Software in some respects is still doable when you get down to it as we can do it in real life (I can and have run several applications intended for Windows under Linux with the help of a software compatibility layer, and there is an extensive database online that increases the count many times over) so I don't see why it could not be done with the Zentreadi hardware. Then again, humans could "update" the Zentreadi missiles with human programing, there is no reason they have to remain on Zentreadi Missile OS version ##.## and can't get a software "upgrade" so they can better communicate with human designed systems.

I would expect it to be easier to either make new missiles or develop an emulator running on the mecha side to overcome the incompatibility. Much easier than having to reprogram a few thousand missiles.

-POUNCER

[rem1093]

I figure the Zent missiles weren't used due to the control systems of the new pods being designed by humans, they'd most likely stick to their own programming and control schemes that wouldn't be compatible with the Zent missiles.

My understanding (from 1E, don't have the 2E Marines book) is that the Zentreadi mecha, while designed by humans is still intended to mimic their original hardware in terms of operational interface (just rescaled). That means that they will have 'familiar' control schemes to the Zentreadi hardware and not Terran. Software in some respects is still doable when you get down to it as we can do it in real life (I can and have run several applications intended for Windows under Linux with the help of a software compatibility layer, and there is an extensive database online that increases the count many times over) so I don't see why it could not be done with the Zentreadi hardware. Then again, humans could "update" the Zentreadi missiles with human programing, there is no reason they have to remain on Zentreadi Missile OS version ##.## and can't get a software "upgrade" so they can better communicate with human designed systems.

I would expect it to be easier to either make new missiles or develop an emulator running on the mecha side to overcome the incompatibility. Much easier than having to reprogram a few thousand missiles.

-POUNCER

Also they wouldn't create a launcher for a finite number of missiles. The Earth forces wouldn't make more Zent missiles when the rest of the fleet uses earth missiles. Then there is the limitation on the size. If you use Zent missile, you are limited to only the Mini-missiles but it they use the Earth missiles they can use either short or mini missiles.