Tattoo Magic - Monster Tattoos and Horror Factor

[Bill]

Should monsters conjured with Atlantean magic tattoos generate a horror factor? The text does not appear to specify whether they do or not, though I may have overlooked it.

[Library Ogre]

I would say yes, though we tend to gloss over Horror Factor after a while.

[eliakon]

If the monster itself has a HF then sure, its copy should too.

But then again I tend to have a totally redone custom HF set up that I use anyway so my opinion on the issue is often more of one of "meh"

[Mack]

Should monsters conjured with Atlantean magic tattoos generate a horror factor? The text does not appear to specify whether they do or not, though I may have overlooked it.

Yes.

[Lukterran]

Absolutely!

First someone just touching a tattoo on their arm and a creature coming to life from the drawing is going to have its own type of fear factor. Plus if the creature itself is scary in any way will also have its Horror Factor.

[Axelmania]

We need more bonuses to HF and penalties to save vs HF since there's so many ways to get HF save bonuses and yet so few ways to get high HFs when reality ought to be much more terrifying.

For some mundane vagabond with no bonuses I don't even think a natural 20 should help against an alien intelligence.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Should monsters conjured with Atlantean magic tattoos generate a horror factor? The text does not appear to specify whether they do or not, though I may have overlooked it.

Only if a picture of the monster can generate a HF response.
Otherwise…No, it would not.
It does not supernatural Aura that causes the HF response.

[Axelmania]

I thought the facsimiles had ALL the natural abilities of the real ones.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I thought the facsimiles had ALL the natural abilities of the real ones.

Horror Factor
Is Not…a skill, a natural ability, nor an effect of MA (intimidation).

Horror Factor
Is…an effect of the SN being's Aura on others.
Is used to represent…the effect of a being's looks on others.
is used to represent ….the effects of a being's reputation on others.

[eliakon]

Part of the confusion on HF is that the text in RUE implies that HF is based on a supernatural aura of evil and wrongness (which is a legacy of cutting and pasting from BTS). Even though there are rules for HF for many completely normal things (weapons, armors, mundane classes, mundane creatures, shell shock, all sorts of stuff). Thus with a bit of checking the rules it should be easy to determine that while some, maybe even the majority of Horror Factors are supernatural, not all of them are.

I would say therefore that IMHO, if the creature has a HF, then its Tattoo copy has the same HF and will prompt the exact same response as any other member of its race being encountered.

I would not say that the summoning process has a HF per se any more than magic has HF, or MD weapons do. They could have a situational HF, but there is nothing inherently horrifying about tattoos being animated.

[drewkitty ~..~]

With out direct quoting…..RUE says that HF can be a result of the creature's appearance or their SN aura or both.
No implying there.

I will stick by what I said earlier in that Tattoo monsters don't have a HF. Mostly cause they don't have the SN aura of the monster being depicted and looks are missing the full coloration of the real thing. …… Like with Simple weapons and Tattoo Animals, they made out of ectoplasm, so therefor they are Gray.

Now if the T-man that produced the monster has a "reputation" HF then knowing about that T-man would give the situation a HF based on the t-man's Reputation HF. Yes this it a complicated way around for tattoo monster (animal to?) to have a HF. But it holds up better then calling HF one of the monster's abilities.

[eliakon]

With out direct quoting…..RUE says that HF can be a result of the creature's appearance or their SN aura or both.
No implying there.

Correct. Appearance was the one I was pointing too, though frankly the Aura works as well because...

I will stick by what I said earlier in that Tattoo monsters don't have a HF. Mostly cause they don't have the SN aura of the monster being depicted

I am still confused on this. How can you have all the abilities of the real thing...except for one? If the creature has a supernatural Aura then copies will have a supernatural aura. Just like if a creature has supernatural strength the copy will have supernatural strength, and if the monster is supernaturally immune to fire so too is the copy. I would be interested in the citation for your source that supernatural auras of horror are not mimicked (book/page)

and looks are missing the full coloration of the real thing. …… Like with Simple weapons and Tattoo Animals, they made out of ectoplasm, so therefor they are Gray.

I am curious as to where this is stated in the books. I can find that they create the copies...
...But I can not find anything that says that they are made of ectoplasm or that they are visually distinguishable from the real thing. Simply that they exist.
This is really important since the Monster Shaping tattoos are explicitly described as perfect disguises. That would not be the case if they were all made of glowing grey ectoplasm. Can you provide a citation (book/page) for this claim?

[drewkitty ~..~]

What are made by monster tattoos are magic constructs made out of ectoplasm.
Abilities of animal-like SN monsters….not difficult…dig, run, fly…

If you can't find where it says that constructs made with tattoo magic are gray made out of ectoplasm then you need to go back and read the text in the RWB2 fully. That is what I did.

Eliakon,
This is the 2nd time today you have not picked up on the point that I was done talking about a topic.

[eliakon]

The abilities of animal-like SN monsters….not difficult…dig, run, fly…

If you can't find where it says that constructs made with tattoo magic are gray made out of ectoplasm then you need to go back and read the text in the RWB2 fully. That is what I did.

Got it. There is no such text and no such statements.[sup]1[/sup]

SO Yeah, Bill. Looks like your Tattoo Monster will get its HF unless someone else can dig up something saying otherwise in the future.

Eliakon,
It is like you are not picking up on the point that I was done talking about this.

Maybe my definition of 'done talking' is different than yours.
Generally when you continue to post back and forth on a topic rebutting points you are considered to be 'discussing' a topic.
There is AFAIK no generally agreed upon 'right to get the last word in' that says that a person has the right to get the last comment on a topic, and that then no one else is allowed to speak on it.
I will however not really expect you to comment further on this. If you do though....well then I will feel fully justified in replying to that post, as it will be...A new post in the discussion and thus a new thought to be discussed.



[sup]1[/sup] there is no such statements in any book that I could find. And since the burden of proof is on the person making a claim...
The claim is there for unsubstantiated and considered false until such time as actual evidence is provided.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is a difference between making a claim and just saying what the book says.

So support your claim.

[eliakon]

There is a difference between making a claim and just saying what the book says.

So support your claim.

All Quotes Atlantis 2nd Printing

Page 86 "Simple weapons are magic tattoos that create a seemingly real physical weapon out of thin air."
Page 86 "Creates the weapon illustrated in the tattoo out of thin air"
Page 86 "Creates the shield illustrated in the tattoo out of thin air"
Page 88 "Animal tattoos have the magic ability to come to life, leap off the body becoming full size and fight for their maker."
Page 90 "Monster tattoos function very similarly to animal tattoos, the main differeance is that the monster is a mega-damage creature"
Page 90 "The magic monster acts like the real monster would in every way and has all the abilities of that creature" (Emphasis mine)

This would seem to say that you create weapons and shields that look like the illustrations
This would seem to say that the animal and monster tattoos also come to life, leaping off the body
This would further seem to say that said animals and monsters would therefore look like the illustration
This would seem to say that the monster would have all abilities of the creature. All meaning all, not all but some.
I do not see "made of ectoplasm"
I do not see "Grey" nor "Glowing grey" which is what ectoplasm would look like
I do not see "Does not have supernatural abilities"


Now, if I have missed something, feel free to point it out. I will admit I could have overlooked something.
But I have shown my work, cited my sources and upheld my burden of proof.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Try rereading the section "About The Animal Tattoos"
are gray: 1st sentence.
Are constructs: 2nd sentence.

[eliakon]

Try rereading the section "About The Animal Tattoos"
are gray: 1st sentence.
Are constructs: 2nd sentence.

Hmmm, I missed the gray bit. Interesting. My bad.

Which does indeed make the Monster Shaping Tattoos odd outliers instead of normal.

It still does not explain though how/why they would not get one of the powers of the animal/monster even thought they have 'all of them' (it also begs the question of if changing something's color is sufficient to make it no longer scary enough to trigger a Horror Factor roll) Which would mean that we are just left with a grey monster that scares you instead of one in live Technicolor.

[13eowulf]

I would point out that the same section says that what they are made out of is "ectoplasmic-like" which would explicitly mean that whatever it is, the one thing it is not is ectoplasm.

[Axelmania]

For animals, I'd find a gray/ectoplasmic bear scarier than a real bear. The concern is different with monsters though since they're naturally scarier than animals and ghostliness could diminish rather than enhance them.

I thought the facsimiles had ALL the natural abilities of the real ones.

Horror Factor
Is Not…a skill, a natural ability, nor an effect of MA (intimidation).

Horror Factor
Is…an effect of the SN being's Aura on others.
Is used to represent…the effect of a being's looks on others.
is used to represent ….the effects of a being's reputation on others.

If a fake monster has all the abilities of the real one, it should carry the same reputation.

Being composed of glowing energy could bring it up or down. Might depend if you know who is controlling the monster and whether or not their intents would be worse or less scary than a monster's instincts.

I would think auras would be kind of a natural ability though.

[drewkitty ~..~]

All living things have auras.
Abilities are things like running, digging, flying,….you know those things listed under "natural abilities" section of a monster write up.

Reputations depend on knowledge, and the spread of that knowledge.

I will have to say that this is a good question for Kevin to answer in a Q&A article.