Juicer Conversion Question

[GreenGhost]

Hey All,

I don't get the chance to come in here as often as I use to, but when I do it seems like it's because I have a question, so once again, I'm coming to you all to educate me.

I can't remember where I saw it, but I was wondering how long does it take for a character to go through the Juicer Conversion?

Thanks in advance.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Juicer Uprising page 12

"Contrary to popular opinion, Juicer conversion is neither instantaneous or painless. It requires two surgical procedures, a period of adjustment, and often serious side-effects. Some people come out of the operations without Juicer powers, with reduced or altered forms of those powers, or as physical wrecks, weaker than when they started! Undergoing the Juicer procedure can take as long as two
months. First, the operations installing the bio-comp and the IRMSS internal housing each take 2-6 hours, and the patient must convalesce for at least two days in between the operations.
Rushing the procedure increases the chance of a catastrophe by 15% (i.e., reduce the chance of success by 15%, or by 20% if both operations take place on the same day; see below). After the bio-comps and nano-machines are in place, the new Juicer must undergo a period of adjustment as his body is modified and enhanced by the drugs. Over the first week, the Juicer will get one half of his final bonuses. For example, a Juicer whose strength has been raised from 14 to 26 will only have a P.S. of 20 for the first week. Initial combat and initiative bonuses are likewise half those provided by the end of the procedure. It will take 2D4 weeks for the full benefits (bonuses) to manifest themselves. Sadly, many neophyte Juicers go out looking for trouble, relying on their abilities and often getting themselves killed be fore they are fully empowered and capable of handling themselves."

[GreenGhost]

Juicer Uprising page 12

"Contrary to popular opinion, Juicer conversion is neither instantaneous or painless. It requires two surgical procedures, a period of adjustment, and often serious side-effects. Some people come out of the operations without Juicer powers, with reduced or altered forms of those powers, or as physical wrecks, weaker than when they started! Undergoing the Juicer procedure can take as long as two
months. First, the operations installing the bio-comp and the IRMSS internal housing each take 2-6 hours, and the patient must convalesce for at least two days in between the operations.
Rushing the procedure increases the chance of a catastrophe by 15% (i.e., reduce the chance of success by 15%, or by 20% if both operations take place on the same day; see below). After the bio-comps and nano-machines are in place, the new Juicer must undergo a period of adjustment as his body is modified and enhanced by the drugs. Over the first week, the Juicer will get one half of his final bonuses. For example, a Juicer whose strength has been raised from 14 to 26 will only have a P.S. of 20 for the first week. Initial combat and initiative bonuses are likewise half those provided by the end of the procedure. It will take 2D4 weeks for the full benefits (bonuses) to manifest themselves. Sadly, many neophyte Juicers go out looking for trouble, relying on their abilities and often getting themselves killed be fore they are fully empowered and capable of handling themselves."

Thanks, Pepsi Jedi. I appreciate it! I was writing a character background for my wife and hit a wall because I couldn't remember where I read it.

Thanks again.

[Pepsi Jedi]

HoH says in a bit of a dropped sentence that the juicer process can have troops combat ready in "a few days' but I think this is being figerative.

You can' juice up' someone in a week or two, but they still need to be taught how to do all the things in their OCC. You can be 'juiced' and not know how to shoot your rifle or fly your jet pack or what have you.

So... a week or two, to be juiced.

Then training to train you in your OCC. HoH gives basic training for grunts to be halved to 4 or 5 weeks. So base training for a grunt would be 10 weeks or so.

You could use the same for a juicer. 2 weeks for the conversion 10 weeks to train your OCC for a total of 12 weeks.

boom three months. Halved for a rush job

[Supergyro]

But using JAEP is quick, easy, and if used responsibly, completely non-addictive!

(See Triax for more details, consult your doctor to see if JAEP is right for you...)

[Axelmania]

The CS Juicer says in one place it takes 250,000 to make one and in another place 500,000 so I am pretty confused about it.

I figure the first figure is just for the conversion/training whereas the second figure also includes equipment costs that normal soldiers also cost.

[bobharly]

The CS Juicer says in one place it takes 250,000 to make one and in another place 500,000 so I am pretty confused about it.

I figure the first figure is just for the conversion/training whereas the second figure also includes equipment costs that normal soldiers also cost.

No, it's like real life. Actual prices may vary...

[Axelmania]

Why would they vary when this is the cost of the CS to produce them?

Another study showed that the average suit of power armor cost 1-5 million credits, while a fully outfitted Juicer, including the cost of his military training, body armor, weapons, equipment and Juicer augmentation process would be no more than 250,000 credits, possibly less (remember, the CS produces things at cost)

This initially showed up on page 41 of Juicer Uprising and was reprinted on page 76 of Coalition War Campaign.

Coalition Juicer Special Operative Cost: Not applicable; available only to the CS military (CS cost is approximately half a million including bionics, body armor, weapons and equipment

This initially showed up on page 45 of Juicer Uprising and was reprinted on page 78 of Coalition War Campaign.

I could write this off as the 250k study "showing" being false (perhaps Lybok bribed them to low-ball it to make it seem more appealing, or maybe they initially planned to give Juices fewer weapons, so lower weapon/equipment costs) but assuming both figures are accurate, I'm wondering if there is a difference between the group of things each represents.

"Body armor" and "weapons" and "equipment" are mentioned in both. The 250k figure also mentions "military training" and "Juicer augmentation process". The 500k figure also mentions "bionics".

Assuming that training/Juicer augmentation are included in the 500k figure (possible since it only says 'including') what may not be included in the 250k figure is Bionics... could that account for the difference though?

I can break these down into their component costs based on their price in RMB:

Cyber-Armor 55,000
Bionic Hand 20,000
Laser Finger Blaster 20,000
Climb Cord 1,500

That comes to 96,500 still leaving 153,500 credits unaccounted for. The only implant I couldn't find a price for was the skull explosive device. It's hard to believe it would be THAT expensive though... but who knows, maybe it has to be really miniaturized to avoid impeding their brain functions?

[Pepsi Jedi]

I suspect the answer is much more simple.

The number was pulled out of the ether, and noone checked Juicer Uprising for such things from literally 20 years ago (( came out in 96 didn't it?)

[bobharly]

Why would they vary when this is the cost of the CS to produce them?

Sorry. I didn't realize that both were CS price sources. I was thinking CS vs. Blackmarket.

I also find it hard to believe that the CS produces at cost, given the potential for internal corruption. I think there is a $100000 toilet seat that is missing from the line item list...

But seriously, it is likely a publication inconsistency. Make judgement call. It's not like they provided a real detailed line item list for supporting either number. They are just nice round numbers. Now if one said, $273, 643.22 and the other said $500k. I'd take the first number. It looks pretty specific, even if a list of medical and tech bills are not detailed... Heck, you could even rule that it is a price range depending on how tech and training is provided. I always rule that the recruit is trained first and then Juiced so that precious months of their now short life aren't wasted in boot camp, with a follow up of 2 months additional training after the procedure to adjust to the maturation of the transformation of their body.

[Axelmania]

JU contained both figures, CWC was the world book right after it and just reprinted them, it's literally double the price within a page later, when comparing the foreword to the afterword.

[glitterboy2098]

HoH says in a bit of a dropped sentence that the juicer process can have troops combat ready in "a few days' but I think this is being figerative.

You can' juice up' someone in a week or two, but they still need to be taught how to do all the things in their OCC. You can be 'juiced' and not know how to shoot your rifle or fly your jet pack or what have you.

So... a week or two, to be juiced.

Then training to train you in your OCC. HoH gives basic training for grunts to be halved to 4 or 5 weeks. So base training for a grunt would be 10 weeks or so.

You could use the same for a juicer. 2 weeks for the conversion 10 weeks to train your OCC for a total of 12 weeks.

boom three months. Halved for a rush job

well, going by that bit from JU, you could have a half strength Juicer up and around within 3-4 days after the initial implant surgeries. they just won't have much of the training or the full range of augmented abilities.

since, IIRC, HoH has the CS resorting to juicers to make its "cannon fodder" recruits more combat effective, they may be rushing the recruits through a very reduced bootcamp, then doing "quick" juicer conversions on them and shipping them out before their full period of adjustment is over. a lot of the skills in a juicer OCC can be learned without being juiced up first, though any skills learned before the process would need a time of mental adjustment as the person gets used to their new speed and reflexes. since the CS are already sending out troops without full training (which is what an accelerated training program usually results in), it isn't much of a stretch that they'd be cutting corners a bit with their semi-disposable juicers too.

[Axelmania]

They ran the numbers and there were fewer deaths if they were juiced, even if all died of last call it would raise the average remaining life expectancy of troops. The ability to detox after some years is icing on the cake.

I can see lots of people doing the contract for five years to get five citizenships. Still gives at least four months to detox. I would opt to stop at 4yrs4mo to avoid last call symptoms but if you had five little sisters you wanted protected from d-bees you may opt to bite that bullet.

Given the average CS juicer lasts 6yrs2mo their last call symptoms would not start until 5y2m which is after the five year term. For those who roll low and fail the 15% the CS would probably opt to cut the term short, detox them, and expect them to work off the remainer of their time as a normal person. Possibly more time since it would be lower quality work (8 months lost juicer service still owed might be worth 8 years unjuiced service). How well they performed before and how well they serve after detox could affect this..as could donating and saved up credits to the CS treasuries I expect. Or maybe some kind of referral service, like 1 month of service owed is forgiven for each family member you sign up.

The primary risk here is psychological. After serving five year you detox during year six which means needing to roll 1% 2/3 times to break the cravings. I'm not sure if the math for that but it is probably going to take decades.

The CS can still save your body cold turkey... but would need to have you on suicide watch. The resources needed to stop a 5yr juicer from killing them self.may not he worth the cost to them.

Personally I think you should get a bonus to this percent based on various factors. Like if you got bionic enhancements, have exoskeleton or power armor, fast vehicles, other enhancing drugs, can astrally project, high ME, loved ones to live for, epic symbiotes, become a tattooed man, etc.

Plus hey, juicers can become two adventurer classes after detox, and their body encounters strange stuff, so now that they are no longer men at arms maybe they can gain random super abilities!

Anything cool and special should reduce the chances of suicide since "cannot bear to live this way" is based on nor.all detoxed abilities and not more than normal abilities.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Some problems there.

1) The CS give the Detox programs at year three

but the bigger problem is.

2) Life exectancy for Juicers in the minion war is -less than 18 months- (Both of these can be found on page 121 hoh)

It's even stated in the book that if more live than they "Think" will live, they can simply be sent out repeatedly untill they die in battle.

Remember juicers are hyped up and yearn for activity. It wouldn't even look strange, because you don't just leave Juicers sitting around. They NEED to be active so sending them out till they eventually die in battle isn't a 'bad' thing, nor would it be considered 'evil'.

There's also extensive writing (I'm not typing it all out, read the book) That states that many of the people signing up fo it know it' s a suicide mission and still do it. And they see it as a privlidge to do so, and to die protecting humanity. That or they see the superman option as the way to go. ect. That it's a willing choice for the people. Then reiterates stuff from Juicer Uprising, where it states that once juiced, most do NOT take Detox to become 'normal/mortal' any more. That the "Point where they WOULD get Detoxed (About 3 years in) is the Apex of their Juicer power so they feel the best they ever have and it prevents people from taking the detox.
It also states that of the few that DO take the detox 87%!!!! Go BACK on the juice with in a few weeks as they can't stand the sensation and feelings of 'not' being a juicer.

So while it's great to "have a plan" going in. (and many do) The book states that the psychological state of being a juicer is highly addictive, as are the drugs, and the power you get by being a juicer.
At the time you'd 'need' to detox, you're at the apex of your power and unlikely to.
Even if you are one of the very few that DO detox... 9 out of 10 of those that Detox, go BACK to the juice with in a few weeks, ANYWAY.

[Axelmania]

CS Detox at year three is based on signing up for a 2 year term of service which only gets supercity entry and/or citizenship for yourself and 2 others.

It's 5 years (thus detox at year 6) if need to get citizenship for 5 others.

As for life expectancy... I'm not sure how that works if you make a deal for 'years of service gives citizenship to my family' and then die before giving those years of service... would they revoke your family's citizenship?

I can't see that working out well or generating confidence in people to sign up so I imagine they have a clause where if you die while serving (so long as it's not an obvious suicide) that your family (or whichever 2 or 5 people you designate) still get the citizenship.

At least then all they'd have to be paranoid about is 'what if they fake my suicide to screw my family?'

In which case... maybe citizenship is guaranteed no matter what and the CS is just very good about screening out participants who seem suicidal...

Which actually might be tricky since there's probably elements of that in a lot of Juicer Wannabes... but the CS hates those types.

Certainly it would be the 'strong will to live' types they'd give longer contracts to.

[Marcethus]

IIRC the Citzenship thing is a scam anyhow. Thought I saw something mentioned in CWC that says they do not explicitly offer that as sign up but imply it during recruitment.

[Pepsi Jedi]

CS Detox at year three is based on signing up for a 2 year term of service which only gets supercity entry and/or citizenship for yourself and 2 others.

It's 5 years (thus detox at year 6) if need to get citizenship for 5 others.

Can you provide a page number and book for that? I looked last night and did not see it.

As for life expectancy... I'm not sure how that works if you make a deal for 'years of service gives citizenship to my family' and then die before giving those years of service... would they revoke your family's citizenship?

I'm fairly certain your family at that point, wouldn't get the citizenship no. Though it could be a Posthumously awarded thing. I could easily see the CS going either way on it.

I can't see that working out well or generating confidence in people to sign up so I imagine they have a clause where if you die while serving (so long as it's not an obvious suicide) that your family (or whichever 2 or 5 people you designate) still get the citizenship.

1) I don't note anything about 2 or 5 people at all, but again I might have missed a page, I'll need the cited source for that and
2) It's very clear that joining the CS army does not grant instant citizenship. You have to fullfill your term of service. (Just like Starship Troopers) So if you don't fullfill your bit, you might not get the rewards.

The Operation in HoH is different from standard Military practice. It's an 'in addition to' sort of deal.

At least then all they'd have to be paranoid about is 'what if they fake my suicide to screw my family?'

Pretty sure they're a bit more worried about being eaten alive by their foes or mind controlled or something. Remember these aren't your standard signing up troops. This is a special cirumstance and the book goes on at some length about the mentality of those signing up and especially for this war and the Juicer conversion.

In which case... maybe citizenship is guaranteed no matter what and the CS is just very good about screening out participants who seem suicidal...

That would seem counter-intuative. Anyone that purposefully signs up for the juicer process is pretty much guarneteed to die. In their estimates in less than 18 months.

Remember of the few that make it to the 3 year mark, MOST do not detox, of those very few that DO detox 87% or pretty much 9 out of 10 go back on the juice in a few weeks.
Becoming a Juicer IS a suicide pact. It just takes a year or two or at the most 5 to come due. Those that do it know this but would rather 'live fast, die young and leave a good looking corpse" It's not some surprise. They're not being tricked.

Which actually might be tricky since there's probably elements of that in a lot of Juicer Wannabes... but the CS hates those types.

Certainly it would be the 'strong will to live' types they'd give longer contracts to.

It's pretty clear that they see the influx of juicers as a temp bump that will, in 5 years maximum, solve itself. There's an aside in the book where a general says it straight up.

[Axelmania]

IIRC the Citzenship thing is a scam anyhow. Thought I saw something mentioned in CWC that says they do not explicitly offer that as sign up but imply it during recruitment.

CS Detox at year three is based on signing up for a 2 year term of service which only gets supercity entry and/or citizenship for yourself and 2 others.

It's 5 years (thus detox at year 6) if need to get citizenship for 5 others.

Can you provide a page number and book for that? I looked last night and did not see it.

It's confusing because this is one of the few things that was changed about the Coalition Juicer between Uprising(10) and Campaign(11).

WB10p41par4

An unsubstantiated rumor has it that young Prosek has submitted a plan in which a human volunteer can earn citizenship for himself and two members of his family, by submitting to Juicer augmentation and faithfully serving in the Coalition Military for less than five years.

WB11pg77par2

As per the young Prosek's plan, human volunteers can earn citizenship for themselves and two family members, by submitting to Juicer augmentation and faithfully serving in the Coalition Military for a two year tour of duty
..
The CS also offers a five year tour of service to begin with. This earns the character his citizenship and gives five family members CS citizenship and/or entry into one of the cities

So the final offer was actually better than initially rumored, a mere 2 years for yourself+2 family.

The second offer is a bit hazy due to the "or entry" part. The offer can obviously vary then, sometimes you can get citizenship but no entry, sometimes you can get entry but no citizenship, sometimes you can get both.

A prospect might have to weigh something like "should I owe 2 years and get citizenship for my 2 kids... or owe 5 years and get my kids, my mother and my wife into Chi-Town?"

Even without citizenship, being able to inhabit one of the cities is pretty good in terms of the safety it gains you. I guess entry doesn't mean permanent residence though... the CS might opt to kick them out... but then, citizenship can be taken away too, so nothing's a guarantee.

I'm fairly certain your family at that point, wouldn't get the citizenship no. Though it could be a Posthumously awarded thing. I could easily see the CS going either way on it.

They'd have to be reasonably fair... if a Juicer dies fighting demons after 23 months and 3 weeks of faithful service and they take away his 2 family member's citizenships... it might not bode very well for military morale. So long as they died faithfully it should count for something proportionately. 3 citizenships for 24 months is 1 per 8 months, so if you died after 9 months faithful service, one of those two family members should be guaranteed a citizenship.

If the CS began to be rules lawyers about it, word could get out and fewer level-headed people would find this offer appealing, since dying would not guarantee them anything.

I remember somewhere about it talking about years of service owed for grunts to get citizenship for families but can't remember where, or if it was as direct about it...curious to compare the times and how many family members you can save that way. Thinking it's either in CWC or Siege.

2) It's very clear that joining the CS army does not grant instant citizenship. You have to fullfill your term of service. (Just like Starship Troopers) So if you don't fullfill your bit, you might not get the rewards.

Obviously they take it back if you're not faithful, but if you die faithfully that should count something towards protecting your loved ones.

On the other hand... it might discourage recklessness for its juicers. If dying meant losing your citizenship then Juicers might take fewer risks, which makes them a better long-term investment for the CS.

With the high fatalities though... it seems like it would be an issue. Why offer citizenship for family members at all if you're not likely to survive long enough for it to count? At best it just keeps your family alive a few months until you die. That still might be better than living in the wilderness.

Having temporary citizenship still might be good though... it gets people's foot in the door. They could have months to make connections, start romances, learn a trade, etc. Odds are, if they served as responsible citizens, that even if they lost their free citizenship due to their Juiced kin dying before the two/five year term, they would probably be put on the short list for future citizenship considerations, since they're already tested and a known factor, compared to other Burbites who haven't had experience living as citizens.

Pretty sure they're a bit more worried about being eaten alive by their foes or mind controlled or something. Remember these aren't your standard signing up troops. This is a special cirumstance and the book goes on at some length about the mentality of those signing up and especially for this war and the Juicer conversion.

Citizenship for family still must be a factor in their mentality for it to be offered. Sure they might want to die for humanity... but probably so their family can survive as part of that humanity.

That would seem counter-intuative. Anyone that purposefully signs up for the juicer process is pretty much guarneteed to die. In their estimates in less than 18 months.

That's still a longer life expectancy than the grunts, and people are signing up for that career.

Remember of the few that make it to the 3 year mark, MOST do not detox, of those very few that DO detox 87% or pretty much 9 out of 10 go back on the juice in a few weeks.
Becoming a Juicer IS a suicide pact. It just takes a year or two or at the most 5 to come due. Those that do it know this but would rather 'live fast, die young and leave a good looking corpse" It's not some surprise. They're not being tricked.

It isn't a suicide pact, it's just increasingly difficult to break the mental reliance on the addiction the later you detox.

Where do you get that most don't detox? Pg 77 of CWC says "some volunteer for a second tour" and "a few remain for the full six", this sounds more like most take the 2 yrs.

For people who had low physical attributes to begin with, being reduced to 8+1D4 afterward could still be a step up from those who had a mere 3-11 to begin with.

The CS Juicer OCC does not begin with any physical skills, and it is in their best interests not to take any and to save that for the new OCC they acquire post-detox to bring their physical attributes up again.

The CS would be wise to offer an 18-month term too, maybe that only earns citizenship for 1 family member instead of 2. The benefit there is you get the bonuses on page 70 of RMB (80 of RUE) to SDC/PS/PP/PB/Spd and not needing to roll on the side effects table. Even shortening the 24 month term to 23 months would give this benefit.

Hm... RUE also changed the roll for random insanity to 4+ year guys, it was originally 5+ year guys.

It's pretty clear that they see the influx of juicers as a temp bump that will, in 5 years maximum, solve itself. There's an aside in the book where a general says it straight up.

5 years is not the maximum, Juicers live for 5+4D6 months. The average juicer can actually survive three two-year terms with 2 months to spare before dying, and they can still try to detox. They won't, since it's 0% chance in the 7th year, so they'll roll on that table every single week and get suicidal after an average of 10 rolls.

GMs should obviously intervene with RP here though, particularly depending on the person's support system and other modifications. Those convinced to become Combat Borgs should be very resistant to this since they could get attributes at or better than what they had as a Juicer.

Beauty is a funny issue. In RMB it mentions all physical attributes to 8+1D4 but then mentions you look older and subtract 1D4... so I guess that gives you a range of 5 to 11 for detoxed Juicers (7 to 13 if detox in under 2 years). RUE adds that if the removal of bio-comp's not done by a cyber-doc then scarring can subtract another 1D4 but I don't think that's be an issue with CS Juicers who served faithfully.

Cybernetics could probably help here though. Wasn't there stuff in HU/N&SS which could add to your PB? I imagine that'd exist in Rifts too. We already have people using plastic surgery to look younger, and Angel of Death manages pretty well.

[Prysus]

They'd have to be reasonably fair... if a Juicer dies fighting demons after 23 months and 3 weeks of faithful service and they take away his 2 family member's citizenships...

Greetings and Salutations. This would imply that they provide citizenship upfront, and then later revoke it. More than likely, they'd just withhold citizenship until the terms of the contract are completed. Think about this in a real world perspective ...

When you work at a job, do they pay you for 40 hours BEFORE you work those 40 hours? This is why companies pay at the end of the week (usually the week after).

If you work at the job for 30 years and they have a retirement at the age of 70, or partial retirement at the age of 60, if you retire at the age of 50 you're not entitled to that retirement, because you didn't meet the requirements. Now if there's a good story behind your retirement (some medical or family reason) and you're on good terms with the company, maybe they'll work out a deal with you anyways, but they don't have to.

My theory (taken from this thread alone, as I don't read the Rifts books): These same concepts would probably apply to the CS*. You know what you're fighting for, and it's not humanity and it's not the CS. It's your family! You have to live and carry out your duty so they can have a better life. If you die, then it's all for nothing. However, sometimes the CS will admit a family anyways. Steve dies after 4 years of service (but shy of his 5 year obligation), but died saving half his squad in epic fashion. Not only will the CS admit Steve's family, but they then make a big deal about it making sure just about everyone knows. This helps let people say: "Yeah, it really does happen!" while also encouraging recruits to not just cower in back, but go out and be heroic like Steve. This way, when it's your time, maybe your family will get admitted to!
*Note: If you really ARE just fighting for humanity and/or the CS, then you don't need any other motivation to continue fighting.

Now Mark over there after 4 years too, but his family didn't get admitted in. How come?!

Well, you knew when signing up you had to complete your full 5 years to gain citizenship for you and your family. While what happened to Mark is regrettable, when he died we needed to fill in his place. Look at our fresh recruit Joe over there. He's taking Mark's old spot, and he has a family he cares about to. If we let Mark's family in, and Jerry's, and George's, and Terry's, there won't be enough room for Joe's family. Do you think Joe's family doesn't matter? Do YOU want to tell Joe his family can't get citizenship because you like Mark's family better?

If the CS began to be rules lawyers about it, word could get out and fewer level-headed people would find this offer appealing, since dying would not guarantee them anything.

I don't think that would stop people signing up though. I imagine that to those outside the city walls, they think if they get citizenship they'll be let inside into a Utopia, or at least the closest to it on Rifts Earth. Their citizens are well fed, and they get free medicine. Little Suzy can finally be cured! They have medicines that can extend your life by 5 times as long! Once you get citizenship, you'll never have to worry about a thing ever again.

This doesn't have to be true, it's the myth. The grass will always be greener on the other side. Start off with the truth (you may need to think about the upper class CS citizens), then magnify it a few times over, and that's what I imagine your average person thinks they'll get with citizenship. You're not guaranteed anything, but if you pull it off, it'll all be worth it. People play the lottery with little chance of winning, but giving away their money at the chance. The odds are slim of winning big, but that doesn't stop people from playing. People gamble in all sorts of ways. In this case, it's your life. But can you be sure you'll be alive in 5 years regardless? At least this way you have a chance! Even if you die, maybe you'll be the next Steve! And in the meantime, you can send your paychecks back to your family, give them a better life in the meantime. Heck, that's at least something.

I'm presenting this from a propaganda/myth type perspective. That's how I think it would/could work. All of it doesn't have to be true, as long as people believe it's true and have hope. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Axelmania]

Good point, didn't say anything about the reward up-front. That way if you die before achieving it there isn't the sense of taking anything away, no kicking people out of the city or revoking, just not getting the thing you were trying for.

Would totally suck if you signed up for 5 years and to get citizenship for 5 family members and then 3 of them died though... I'd hope the CS would have an option to shorten you to a 2-year term in that case. Or maybe get flexible with 'family' and let in your girlfriend and her aunt or something.

[Pepsi Jedi]

IIRC the Citzenship thing is a scam anyhow. Thought I saw something mentioned in CWC that says they do not explicitly offer that as sign up but imply it during recruitment.

CS Detox at year three is based on signing up for a 2 year term of service which only gets supercity entry and/or citizenship for yourself and 2 others.

It's 5 years (thus detox at year 6) if need to get citizenship for 5 others.

Can you provide a page number and book for that? I looked last night and did not see it.

It's confusing because this is one of the few things that was changed about the Coalition Juicer between Uprising(10) and Campaign(11).

WB10p41par4

An unsubstantiated rumor has it that young Prosek has submitted a plan in which a human volunteer can earn citizenship for himself and two members of his family, by submitting to Juicer augmentation and faithfully serving in the Coalition Military for less than five years.

WB11pg77par2

As per the young Prosek's plan, human volunteers can earn citizenship for themselves and two family members, by submitting to Juicer augmentation and faithfully serving in the Coalition Military for a two year tour of duty
..
The CS also offers a five year tour of service to begin with. This earns the character his citizenship and gives five family members CS citizenship and/or entry into one of the cities

So the final offer was actually better than initially rumored, a mere 2 years for yourself+2 family.

Ehh kinda. You note the stipulation. "Faithfully serving in the CS military for a two year tour of duty" Meaning.. You have to survive it.
The Five year option even straight up says it's a death sentence.

The second offer is a bit hazy due to the "or entry" part. The offer can obviously vary then, sometimes you can get citizenship but no entry, sometimes you can get entry but no citizenship, sometimes you can get both.

A prospect might have to weigh something like "should I owe 2 years and get citizenship for my 2 kids... or owe 5 years and get my kids, my mother and my wife into Chi-Town?"

Might ought to weigh "Two years are, chances I'll be dead. Chances are even higher I won't survive the 5 years anyway and then the family gets nothing."

Sure, not many people 'plan' on dieing, but that's heck of game of chance to play with your family.

Even without citizenship, being able to inhabit one of the cities is pretty good in terms of the safety it gains you. I guess entry doesn't mean permanent residence though... the CS might opt to kick them out... but then, citizenship can be taken away too, so nothing's a guarantee.

I'm fairly certain your family at that point, wouldn't get the citizenship no. Though it could be a Posthumously awarded thing. I could easily see the CS going either way on it.

They'd have to be reasonably fair... if a Juicer dies fighting demons after 23 months and 3 weeks of faithful service and they take away his 2 family member's citizenships.

Lets be clear here. They wouldn't be taking them away. They'd be 'failing to grant them"

.. it might not bode very well for military morale. So long as they died faithfully it should count for something proportionately. 3 citizenships for 24 months is 1 per 8 months, so if you died after 9 months faithful service, one of those two family members should be guaranteed a citizenship.

I don't see them factoring it like that at all. Signing up for Juicer conversion (Before the minion war) Is still a very clear and distinct thing. It's something above and beyond signing up to be a grunt. You know going in that you're going to be in extreme danger and the chances of death are even higher than your average troop.
If you sign the contract for TWO YEARS of faithful service, or FIVE YEARS of faithful service and.... you don't make it to that two year cut off point or that five year cut off point, then I don't think baring some thrilling herorics (Like metal of honor type stuff) would the CS go out of their way to honor a contract you... did not fullfill (By dieing.)

It's not a matter of being taken to court.
It's just a "You signed up for 730 days of service, or 1,825 days of service, in exchange for this great honor and privlidge. If you only pay 700 days, you didn't fullfill your contract, or if you only made 15,00 days, you didn't fullfill your contract. They don't strike me as the fuzzy warm sorts to give you partial credit.

Now they might have a dispensation if you get really really close. And die "Short time" like the'd call it in Vietnam" say you had the 730 day contract and you were in for 715... they might roll it over. But I wouldn't bet my life on it. The CS is seldom protrayed as loving and cuddly, and less so their military.

There wouldn't be huge hits to Military Moral. The juicers know the score going in.

If the CS began to be rules lawyers about it, word could get out and fewer level-headed people would find this offer appealing, since dying would not guarantee them anything.

You get to be the god among men and kick some rear. You get to try and save your family's and humanity's lives. ETC. The CS are.. .known for being very picky about who they give citizen ship to, so yes, I could very much see them being rules lawyers. After all we're talking about military service. "Close enough" isn't going to be a concept in most cases.

I remember somewhere about it talking about years of service owed for grunts to get citizenship for families but can't remember where, or if it was as direct about it...curious to compare the times and how many family members you can save that way. Thinking it's either in CWC or Siege.

Thing is, while you did find the quote in CWC, CWC isn't HoH. The new juicers are being inducted by the 10s of 1000s to 100s of 1000s. It doesn't mention that deal being forwarded to all the 'new' juicers that are signing up, and it goes into pretty detailed reasoning and how they're going about it. If it were still a viable thing for them, One would think it'd be mentioned. Those Juicers are getting fast tracked and I don't get the impression there's a promise of citizenship for their families attached to their service. (Not the CS would have to pay out in most cases anyway. with an operational life of 18 months, the juicers should be dead far before the 2 year cut off anyway)

As a side note, you can bet that the Juciers 'term of service' doesn't start till he hits the field (Or any other CS troop for that matter). I.E. your basic training, be it weeks or months, very likely doesn't count towards your "Two and out" plan.

2) It's very clear that joining the CS army does not grant instant citizenship. You have to fullfill your term of service. (Just like Starship Troopers) So if you don't fullfill your bit, you might not get the rewards.

Obviously they take it back if you're not faithful, but if you die faithfully that should count something towards protecting your loved ones.

Ehhh when you get to words like "Should" about a... pretty hard core military and society you get in trouble. The CS aren't usually fuzzy kittens of love or care bears. "Should" They be nice about it. yeah, but if a juicer is juiced and dies in the drop ship on the way to combat. They're not rubber stamping that guy's family into the CS. Dead or not.

So then you go "Well of course not, the guy never even fired his rifle" So THEN.. you go "How many days/months/years before he passes that hump to where the CS WOULD say "ok you've done enough"

If they're only asking 2 years of the juicers.. then you gotta think that date is going to be WAY towards the end. 2 years isn't that long. 1 year 11 months and 1 day... sure.. MAYBE they'll comp you in the last month, but again, I wouldn't bet on it.

On the other hand... it might discourage recklessness for its juicers. If dying meant losing your citizenship then Juicers might take fewer risks, which makes them a better long-term investment for the CS.

Ehh. Kinda. That recklessness and daring is why you HAVE juicers. It would give the juicers more incentive to TRY and stay alive longer.
Thing is the mentality of those signing up for HoH is different than the ones signing up in CWC

With the high fatalities though... it seems like it would be an issue. Why offer citizenship for family members at all if you're not likely to survive long enough for it to count? At best it just keeps your family alive a few months until you die. That still might be better than living in the wilderness.

Rifts is VERY Clear about that part. Living in the CS is many times better than not. Even under the rather iron fist of the CS laws. It's mentioned in many places but HoH has a few pages talking about life out side the cs vs inside. And yeah.. It'd be like "Ok.. You're in Hati..... or Somolia.... .vs.... Living in New York City, or LA.

Sure. NYC and LA have problems. (in our case, crime and population etc) But even then most people would choose NYC or LA over living in 3rd world squaller. And our world doesn't even have 500 variations of dragon/dbee/monster/dinosaur/alien that could LITERALY pop up at any time and LITERALLY out of thin air itself (Rift) to eat you with out warning.

Having temporary citizenship still might be good though... it gets people's foot in the door.

Don't see it happening. Then you havd to deal with them for the duration. The vast majority of recruits for HoH are not from with in the CS. Only half a million were of the millions taken in. If you had to take in multiple millions more people during the event and feed them and give them shelter it'd strain their already strained resources even more.

They could have months to make connections, start romances, learn a trade, etc. Odds are, if they served as responsible citizens, that even if they lost their free citizenship due to their Juiced kin dying before the two/five year term, they would probably be put on the short list for future citizenship considerations, since they're already tested and a known factor, compared to other Burbites who haven't had experience living as citizens.

It's a nice fluffy theory, and in a 'good' or 'perfect' world (Star Trek or something) it might work, but I don't see it being viable in rifts and most especially the CS.

Pretty sure they're a bit more worried about being eaten alive by their foes or mind controlled or something. Remember these aren't your standard signing up troops. This is a special cirumstance and the book goes on at some length about the mentality of those signing up and especially for this war and the Juicer conversion.

Citizenship for family still must be a factor in their mentality for it to be offered. Sure they might want to die for humanity... but probably so their family can survive as part of that humanity.

In HoH it's (Family getting in) not really mentioned though. Different war, different times, different motivations.

That would seem counter-intuative. Anyone that purposefully signs up for the juicer process is pretty much guarneteed to die. In their estimates in less than 18 months.

That's still a longer life expectancy than the grunts, and people are signing up for that career.

Not at all. Grunts don't get the uber dangerous missions that the Juicers do. Juicers are basicly special forces shock troops. Grunts are.. grunts. They shoot sure but you don't field them the same. The mentality of how the juicers will be used is spoken about in HoH too. Send them out to the MOST DANGEROUS missions. If they live? Great! We have 500 more missions even MORE dangerous than that one! Send them out till they don't come back. Don't worry. We'll make more.

Grunts are likely used more sparingly (And even then in high numbers) You don't send 5 grunts after one massive lord of hell or whatever. but 5 juicers zippign in with their jet packs jumping off doing 100mph, hitting him bouncing around like fleas, shooting and slashing. 3 of them dieing and 2 jumping back on their jet packs to get away... sure.

The 5 grunts would just get slaughtered but those juicers have a chance of winning. So you use them different. The CS are SAID to have great tacticians (Even though..... Kevin doesn't seem to WRITE great tactics much)

Remember of the few that make it to the 3 year mark, MOST do not detox, of those very few that DO detox 87% or pretty much 9 out of 10 go back on the juice in a few weeks.
Becoming a Juicer IS a suicide pact. It just takes a year or two or at the most 5 to come due. Those that do it know this but would rather 'live fast, die young and leave a good looking corpse" It's not some surprise. They're not being tricked.

It isn't a suicide pact, it's just increasingly difficult to break the mental reliance on the addiction the later you detox.

Ehhh it's pretty much a suicide pact. You know you're going to die in a maximum of 5 or 6 years if you don't detox and few do... what do you call it? It's not like it's an unknown secret of Juicers. It's the entire 'point' of the OCC and character type.

Where do you get that most don't detox? Pg 77 of CWC says "some volunteer for a second tour" and "a few remain for the full six", this sounds more like most take the 2 yrs.

If most die before 2 years, then some reupping for a second term, would be the ones that remain. of them, fewer still will live long enough to see last call. You're quoting the book but leaving out some bits.


Some volunteer for a second tour of duty, accepting the greater risk of death in return for another few years as a Juicer powerhouse. A few remain in service for the full six years, abandoning all hope in return for the chance to build a stronger human empire and destroy the enemies of mankind."

and

"The long tour of duty condemns the volunteer to death"

As to the most don't detox it's found in HoH.
Page 123 in the juicer section

"Theoretically, these chemically enhanced warriors can 'get off the juice" before it's too late, but that seldom happens. Most Juicers become so addicted to the drugs and the thrill of combat that they cannot give it up, even when death is the only inevitable outcome. Moreover, to escape what juicers refer to as "last call" the young warriors must do so at the peak of their power and combat prowess, around three years after becoming a juicer. A choice most refuse to make. Adrenaline junkies, an estimated 87% of those who get off the juice go back on it with in a few weeks because they hate feeling slow and ordinary. They miss the power and speed of being enhanced and the rush of combat.
The longer someone is a juicer the more addicted they become to death defying challenges,. Juicers also become increasingly aggressive, violent and quick to action-- sometimes too quick, In peacetime it makes them dangerous and unpredictable like a caged tiger that longs to be released into the wilde where it can hunt and live like the predator it was born to be. This is a good reason to keep the numbers of juicers in the CS Minimal but in the current situation the CS needs as many as it can unleash.
If by some Miracle, the Minion war unexpectedly ends quickly hundreds of thousands of hyperactive, combat hungry Juicers could be a problem. The good news is they'll ALL be dead in another 3-4 years, being rid of "The problem" is a simple matter of waiting.
If warranted there are plenty of enemies the coalition brass can send a juicer armyto fiht against giving the enhanced warriors something to keep them busy unitll they reach last call."

So the books themselves tell us that. and ugg. That's alot to type off the cuff

For people who had low physical attributes to begin with, being reduced to 8+1D4 afterward could still be a step up from those who had a mere 3-11 to begin with.

It's not really a factor that's mentioned. Just that most don't want to be "Non juiced' any more

The CS Juicer OCC does not begin with any physical skills, and it is in their best interests not to take any and to save that for the new OCC they acquire post-detox to bring their physical attributes up again.

Thing is Detox is a PLAYER thing, in world it's seldom done and even then if 9 out of 10 go back.. it even more seldom 'takes'. Detox is a nice thing to sort of 'dream about' in character but not a realistic one.

The CS would be wise to offer an 18-month term too, maybe that only earns citizenship for 1 family member instead of 2. The benefit there is you get the bonuses on page 70 of RMB (80 of RUE) to SDC/PS/PP/PB/Spd and not needing to roll on the side effects table. Even shortening the 24 month term to 23 months would give this benefit.

You're under the.... Impression that the CS is doing this with the INTENTION of the Juicers living and bumping the CS population... that's..not what's really being done here. This is part of a 'Last second hail mary throw" to save Humanity from the Minion War. if the CS wins, they KNOW that the Juicers are a 'problem' that's solved in a few years. They KNOW the life span is 18 months. That's WHY the terms are... longer than 18 months. Only the uber elite will hit that 2 year term and get his 2 family members in (And again that part is NOT MENTIONED in HoH, so might only be for the few juicers that were in 'before' the minion war started)

The CS see the juicers as CHEEP highly effective special forces shock troops that they won't have to worry about in 19 months much less 2 years and at all what so ever after 5. They're cheep disposable Weapons being aimed at the Minion war in hopes that the juiced up troops take down more than the demons and devils do, in a huge war of rapid attrition.

Hm... RUE also changed the roll for random insanity to 4+ year guys, it was originally 5+ year guys.

It's pretty clear that they see the influx of juicers as a temp bump that will, in 5 years maximum, solve itself. There's an aside in the book where a general says it straight up.

5 years is not the maximum, Juicers live for 5+4D6 months. The average juicer can actually survive three two-year terms with 2 months to spare before dying, and they can still try to detox. They won't, since it's 0% chance in the 7th year, so they'll roll on that table every single week and get suicidal after an average of 10 rolls.

If the average live span of a Juicer in combat is 18 months.then 5 years is going to be three and a third times over. If your average juicer dies in 18 months.. only a hero would stil lbe kicking in 36.. much less in 54.

yes you and I can see the 'rule book' and see that it's 5+4D6 months. but in reality in a hard hitting war with the supernatural they're not going to make it that long with maximum deployment. There's even contengancy plans. The cranial bombs and simply 'resupplying' the 'juice' with a toxic chemical to mimic last call.

"Oh.. Blazer died" "Really?" "Yeah.. burned out.. he was 5 years in ya know?" "Dang.. last call" "Yeah."

But with the juicer needign to beat the average by over THREE TIMES, it's just not something that's going to often come up.

GMs should obviously intervene with RP here though, particularly depending on the person's support system and other modifications. Those convinced to become Combat Borgs should be very resistant to this since they could get attributes at or better than what they had as a Juicer.

The books point out the comrodery of Juicers and combat borgs, as so many juicers sign the card to BECOME combat borgs if they fall in combat. It's seen as their 'second chance' in life.

Sign up to be a juicer. be a 'human' superman for as long as you can. Fall in combat, be reborn with skin of steel"

The book goes on at pretty great length about this.

Beauty is a funny issue. In RMB it mentions all physical attributes to 8+1D4 but then mentions you look older and subtract 1D4... so I guess that gives you a range of 5 to 11 for detoxed Juicers (7 to 13 if detox in under 2 years). RUE adds that if the removal of bio-comp's not done by a cyber-doc then scarring can subtract another 1D4 but I don't think that's be an issue with CS Juicers who served faithfully.

Cybernetics could probably help here though. Wasn't there stuff in HU/N&SS which could add to your PB? I imagine that'd exist in Rifts too. We already have people using plastic surgery to look younger, and Angel of Death manages pretty well.

Well I guess if you were one of the very very few to get out at the apex of your power. Detox in 2 or 3 years... and then beat the 9 out of 10 go back anyway.. so of the few that do detox you're one of those 'only 1 in 10 stay detoxed' you might have saved up your salary, for those years and be able to afford the surgery. It's 'possible'. Just unlikely that all those unlikely events will line up in a row.

That'd be an 'ideal' that'ds be the 'dream' that's sold to some young gulliable' sorts. but just unlikely to ever manifest.

[Pepsi Jedi]

They'd have to be reasonably fair... if a Juicer dies fighting demons after 23 months and 3 weeks of faithful service and they take away his 2 family member's citizenships...

Greetings and Salutations. This would imply that they provide citizenship upfront, and then later revoke it. More than likely, they'd just withhold citizenship until the terms of the contract are completed. Think about this in a real world perspective ...

When you work at a job, do they pay you for 40 hours BEFORE you work those 40 hours? This is why companies pay at the end of the week (usually the week after).

If you work at the job for 30 years and they have a retirement at the age of 70, or partial retirement at the age of 60, if you retire at the age of 50 you're not entitled to that retirement, because you didn't meet the requirements. Now if there's a good story behind your retirement (some medical or family reason) and you're on good terms with the company, maybe they'll work out a deal with you anyways, but they don't have to.

My theory (taken from this thread alone, as I don't read the Rifts books): These same concepts would probably apply to the CS*. You know what you're fighting for, and it's not humanity and it's not the CS. It's your family! You have to live and carry out your duty so they can have a better life. If you die, then it's all for nothing. However, sometimes the CS will admit a family anyways. Steve dies after 4 years of service (but shy of his 5 year obligation), but died saving half his squad in epic fashion. Not only will the CS admit Steve's family, but they then make a big deal about it making sure just about everyone knows. This helps let people say: "Yeah, it really does happen!" while also encouraging recruits to not just cower in back, but go out and be heroic like Steve. This way, when it's your time, maybe your family will get admitted to!
*Note: If you really ARE just fighting for humanity and/or the CS, then you don't need any other motivation to continue fighting.

Now Mark over there after 4 years too, but his family didn't get admitted in. How come?!

Well, you knew when signing up you had to complete your full 5 years to gain citizenship for you and your family. While what happened to Mark is regrettable, when he died we needed to fill in his place. Look at our fresh recruit Joe over there. He's taking Mark's old spot, and he has a family he cares about to. If we let Mark's family in, and Jerry's, and George's, and Terry's, there won't be enough room for Joe's family. Do you think Joe's family doesn't matter? Do YOU want to tell Joe his family can't get citizenship because you like Mark's family better?

If the CS began to be rules lawyers about it, word could get out and fewer level-headed people would find this offer appealing, since dying would not guarantee them anything.

I don't think that would stop people signing up though. I imagine that to those outside the city walls, they think if they get citizenship they'll be let inside into a Utopia, or at least the closest to it on Rifts Earth. Their citizens are well fed, and they get free medicine. Little Suzy can finally be cured! They have medicines that can extend your life by 5 times as long! Once you get citizenship, you'll never have to worry about a thing ever again.

This doesn't have to be true, it's the myth. The grass will always be greener on the other side. Start off with the truth (you may need to think about the upper class CS citizens), then magnify it a few times over, and that's what I imagine your average person thinks they'll get with citizenship. You're not guaranteed anything, but if you pull it off, it'll all be worth it. People play the lottery with little chance of winning, but giving away their money at the chance. The odds are slim of winning big, but that doesn't stop people from playing. People gamble in all sorts of ways. In this case, it's your life. But can you be sure you'll be alive in 5 years regardless? At least this way you have a chance! Even if you die, maybe you'll be the next Steve! And in the meantime, you can send your paychecks back to your family, give them a better life in the meantime. Heck, that's at least something.

I'm presenting this from a propaganda/myth type perspective. That's how I think it would/could work. All of it doesn't have to be true, as long as people believe it's true and have hope. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Nicely put.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Good point, didn't say anything about the reward up-front. That way if you die before achieving it there isn't the sense of taking anything away, no kicking people out of the city or revoking, just not getting the thing you were trying for.

Would totally suck if you signed up for 5 years and to get citizenship for 5 family members and then 3 of them died though... I'd hope the CS would have an option to shorten you to a 2-year term in that case. Or maybe get flexible with 'family' and let in your girlfriend and her aunt or something.

Not trying to be funny or mean in any way, but what from the books gives you the impression of the CS military being all super compassionate and willing to dicker and make deals with their troops registered terms of service in hopes of being kind and gentle to the people waiting?

There's millions of humans living in the burbs just waiting on the off chance their number might come up and they might get let into the Cities. It's not like the CS has to let people in. they really CAN be picky about who they do. Why go out of your way to let in Frank who died early,'s family when Jed, Joe, Jim and Jack are all willing to sign up for years on the chance THEIr family might get in.

There's something to be said about loyalty and such but as pointed out abovei t'd likely be few, far between and done for propaganda/media purposes. I.E. it wouldnt' be standard.

You'd HEAR about it, the one time in 500 that it happens so you have hope that it might happen to you, but he other 499 guys that died before their bit was up.. Just died.

Now they died fighting for humanity and hopefully they took some demons with them, but yeah.

[Axelmania]

Not trying to be funny or mean in any way, but what from the books gives you the impression of the CS military being all super compassionate and willing to dicker and make deals with their troops registered terms of service in hopes of being kind and gentle to the people waiting?

If the Juicer was in the CS Military long enough to make friends, he could have shown family pictures to his fellow soldiers, they might get upset that it was all for nothing. Good morale booster in some situations.

There's millions of humans living in the burbs just waiting on the off chance their number might come up and they might get let into the Cities. It's not like the CS has to let people in. they really CAN be picky about who they do. Why go out of your way to let in Frank who died early,'s family when Jed, Joe, Jim and Jack are all willing to sign up for years on the chance THEIr family might get in.

Maybe only Jed would be willing to sign up if they knew that none of the 5 family members become permanent citizens if die on the 1825th day and don't complete your full term.

There's something to be said about loyalty and such but as pointed out abovei t'd likely be few, far between and done for propaganda/media purposes. I.E. it wouldnt' be standard.

Yeah, it's not an obligation, it's an out for cases that aren't favorable, but I can see them doing it a lot so long as they got some decent use out of the Juicer and the family are desirable. Works better if they're attractive, no history of D-Bee fraternization, Juicer died well, etc.

You'd HEAR about it, the one time in 500 that it happens so you have hope that it might happen to you, but he other 499 guys that died before their bit was up.. Just died.

Now they died fighting for humanity and hopefully they took some demons with them, but yeah.

What if it's 1 in 2 rather than 1 in 500?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Not trying to be funny or mean in any way, but what from the books gives you the impression of the CS military being all super compassionate and willing to dicker and make deals with their troops registered terms of service in hopes of being kind and gentle to the people waiting?

If the Juicer was in the CS Military long enough to make friends, he could have shown family pictures to his fellow soldiers, they might get upset that it was all for nothing. Good morale booster in some situations.

They're currently fielding a Nine MILLION Man army... the top brass isn't going to care much about Frank the juicer's sweet little cherubs back home, unless Frank saves th life of a General by parrying a Rune axe blow meant for the general with his FACE infront of Camera's that can be put on CS-TV.

They're rolling in hundreds of thousands of juicers. If nothing else they won't have time to dicker with terms of service.

There's millions of humans living in the burbs just waiting on the off chance their number might come up and they might get let into the Cities. It's not like the CS has to let people in. they really CAN be picky about who they do. Why go out of your way to let in Frank who died early,'s family when Jed, Joe, Jim and Jack are all willing to sign up for years on the chance THEIr family might get in.

Maybe only Jed would be willing to sign up if they knew that none of the 5 family members become permanent citizens if die on the 1825th day and don't complete your full term.

Before the minion war you MIGHT have had a point (But I don't think so. You could just sign up for standard non juicer service) With the Minion war on, it's extremely clear in the book just how many people are flocking to join up and the 'Why' behind it.

I know it sounds simple and a bit off the cuff but "Times have changed"

They induced MILLIONS of people in just a few months.

There's something to be said about loyalty and such but as pointed out abovei t'd likely be few, far between and done for propaganda/media purposes. I.E. it wouldnt' be standard.

Yeah, it's not an obligation, it's an out for cases that aren't favorable, but I can see them doing it a lot so long as they got some decent use out of the Juicer and the family are desirable. Works better if they're attractive, no history of D-Bee fraternization, Juicer died well, etc.

I could see it happening once or twice, so they could put it on TV and show people, but other than very rare exceptions it wouldn't be common. Again. hundreds of thousands of juicers are being made and dieing.. well by the thousands. It's not going to be a standard practice.

You'd HEAR about it, the one time in 500 that it happens so you have hope that it might happen to you, but he other 499 guys that died before their bit was up.. Just died.

Now they died fighting for humanity and hopefully they took some demons with them, but yeah.

What if it's 1 in 2 rather than 1 in 500?

No way. Because if it was half of them you'd still have literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of population boom.

If the CS makes 500,000 juicers, and for sake of argument they were given the same 'Pre war signing bonus" of 2 family members in at the end of term... and you gave half of those that died citizenship you'd still bounce in 500,000 new citizens straight from that. I forget the exact number of juicers being made. I know it says 'hundreds of thousands" but there' a percentage of the new troops that are being converted and with literal millions of new troops you might actually see a million juicers or 1.5 million juicers. If half of them got 2 people in, just for dieing that'd be a million civilians to 1.5 million civilians into the CS when their resources were stretched so tight.

I could see it happening on VEEEEEEEEEEEEERY Rare occassion, for PR, to put on TV and keep people singing up, but you only need one or two of those. Not literally 100s of 1000s of them.

[glitterboy2098]

i suspect that the fine print on the deal getting your family into one of the fortress cities is "only if you survive [number] terms of service".

that said, IIRC the CS was building a new, fairly large, fortress city north of Chi-town. by the time the minion war thing is dealt with in NA, that city should be finished and ready to accept a few million new inhabitants. so the CS may be feeling a bit more secure in promising to let people in.

[Pepsi Jedi]

They're building one in lone star too but not filling it up too quick. They aren't just letting in any old body just to fill space.

[Axelmania]

I think the reason for my disagreement is I was going on the small number of juicers that CWC talked about, guessing this got ramped up in Aftermath/HoH or something. I was thinking it was just in the thousands, not hundreds of thousands of juicers. So yeah that's a lot more potential citizens to find room for so I agree with the lower incidence of acceptance in cases of incomplete terms.

[Pepsi Jedi]

HoH' ramps it up explosively.

Recruiting literally millions of more troops and Juicing 100,000s of them for (almost) instant super shock troops to pour against the Demons/devils. Alot more combat borgs too buyt like 3 out of 4 people that go for augmentation go juicer.
(At frist. 'dieing as a juicer and becoming a combat borg" seems to be the default juicer fallback if possible. )

[Axelmania]

I wonder if they let you put the extra citizenships in reserve instead of using it immediately, like maybe you don't want to start a family if you might die, so you wait until a 2 year term is up before marrying your sweetheart and deciding to have a kid.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm betting no. You better marry that girl before you enlist and make sure ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL of her Information down to DNA sample is on file.

Nothing in the books say this. Just.. again, the Cs isn't known for being fluffy kind and family friendly. They're very much a 'Dot the "i"s and cross the "T's sorta organization.

[Axelmania]

Isn't delaying payment favorable to them though? That's more time to allocate resources, less time taking care of the new person, etc.

If they don't allow that, you'll have Juicers nearing their 2 year term suddenly get distracted dating and trying to get married and pregnant.

This would also discourage female juicers who wanted to become mothers since they'd have to reproduce prior to becoming a Juicer since if they wait until after it's too long.

On the other hand... juicing up is probably one way to feel great after giving birth, enhanced healing would get rid of those stretch marks for sure!

Makes me wonder, what if you had a family which marries young, then they have 4 kids over 1-2 years (fertility drugs must exist to guarantee double/triple/quadruple births), then both parents become juicer and now all 6 of them are citizens after 2 years, meanwhile you have some wetnurse caring for them in the 'Burbs until the term is up.

[Marcethus]

Yeah I don't see that Happening. The CS is not a friendly caring type entity that you seem to be trying to make them out to be.

[HWalsh]

Yeah I don't see that Happening. The CS is not a friendly caring type entity that you seem to be trying to make them out to be.

Oiy.

Well, here is your asbestos armor and extra sized bottle of Aloe Vera. You're going to need it.

[Marcethus]

Yeah I don't see that Happening. The CS is not a friendly caring type entity that you seem to be trying to make them out to be.

Oiy.

Well, here is your asbestos armor and extra sized bottle of Aloe Vera. You're going to need it.

Good thing I am a Burster

[Axelmania]

CS is totally caring and friendly. How can you distrust this qt?

[Blue_Lion]

The CS Juicer says in one place it takes 250,000 to make one and in another place 500,000 so I am pretty confused about it.

I figure the first figure is just for the conversion/training whereas the second figure also includes equipment costs that normal soldiers also cost.

It could also include sighning bonus, and training in the second price. first is for the medical process and chems.

[Supergyro]

The hardest part of Juicer conversion is getting the rabbi's permission...

Thank you, I'm here all week, don't forget to tip your waitress on the way out...