Viable weaknesses of a Mystic Knight

[CaptKaruthors]

I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts on the matter. What items/ things would you use if you had to battle one in your game?

[Svartalf]

nasic explosives, HE minimissiles, frag grenades, vibroblades, railguns... anything that's not an enregy attack.
or attack them with magic... Carpet of Adhesion, sleep,... plenty possibilities depending on what your party mages have at their disposal.

[HWalsh]

I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts on the matter. What items/ things would you use if you had to battle one in your game?

When in doubt, use a Boom Gun.

Non-energy damage, and a lot of it. 3d6x10, or more if you have someone who can improve it. 30-180 MD per shot and the sonic shock wave. Its a pretty good weapon against almost anything.

-----

I have had to fight one as a Cyber-Knight, which sucked as they are immune to energy, which includes Psi-Swords. That having been said, one of the weaknesses I have noticed about Mystic Knights is they tend to be cocky. A high PP fighter, if they can close, can actually shut down a Mystic Knight. Though they need backup to take them down.

How I did it was, something like:

Characters: Me, a Borg, Mystic Knight

Spoiler:

Init Order:
Mystic Knight
Me
Borg

Round 1:
Mystic Knight: Mystic Knight closed with me to take me out with his sword (that thing did 1d6x10+10 MD, I don't know how but that is what it did because he had already dropped one of us who charged him)

Me: Declares simultaneous strike, Paired Weapons: Parry the sword (success), Simultaneous Attack: Body Flip/Throw (success).

'Borg: Rushed up, fired rail gun at Mystic Knight, Knight chose not to dodge.

Me: (as the MK lost init from the body flip) Disarm the MK (failed)

MK: Declared Simultaneous Strike on Me.

Me: Successfully parried, able to due to paired weapons.

Borg: Rail gun again, MK opted to dodge.

MK: Did something (don't know what it was) I assume a spell or something.

Me: Body Flip/Throw on the MK (success)

Borg: Rail gun.

MK: Dodge

Me: Body Flip/Throw again on the MK (success)

Borg: Rail Gun

MK: No dodge.

Me: (Realizing the MK was out of actions) Attack using an Arm Hold (to neutralize his sword)

Borg: Rail Gun, Rail Gun...

Our MK decided to surrender.

[Blue_Lion]

TW weapons. any non energy weapons. Rear gas, nerve gas, poison breath attacks. chi attacks.

[Zamion138]

Landmines, traps, extreme ranged attacks that are not lasers/particle weapons.
Spells like dominate, or psi attacks, attacking him on the astral level with a physical attack (mind bolt, psi assassin stuff).

Offer him a better paycheck, make him relize his employer will not pay him win or loose. Be a better con man

[drewkitty ~..~]

plasma nades and Energy field in dome config.
Plasma nade to burn up all the O2 and the EF to seal the O2 out.

Since mages can't use FEBA without acquiring penalties…..

[Axelmania]

Destroy their armor with any kind of energy weapon since it won't be impervious to normal energy like they are. Then kill them with a TW Lightning Rod. Half damage from magic energy still means they need to survive 50 to 300 SDC per hit from that thing. Meanwhile you're utterly impervious to their own energy expulsion abilities. A TW-converted JA-9 could do the job pretty well.

[Zamion138]

Always thought the impervious ability extended to the armor.

[Svartalf]

So do I, at least I'd quickly leave any table where the GM ruled the other way.

[Axelmania]

Given that we know some abilities explicitly state protecting armor (the 'Energy Resistance' minor super ability in the conversion book, the 'Impervious to Fire' spell) those which do not state that probably just protect the person and not their gear.

Why leave the table? Mystic Knights are still pretty great even with this.

[Blue_Lion]

Given that we know some abilities explicitly state protecting armor (the 'Energy Resistance' minor super ability in the conversion book, the 'Impervious to Fire' spell) those which do not state that probably just protect the person and not their gear.

Why leave the table? Mystic Knights are still pretty great even with this.

That may seam a logical assumption to you; or those that do not state what they protect can be just a matter of PB inconsistent writing style this can be supported by having at least one power that states what it does not protect(a psi armor list what it does not protect). Most defensive abilities just list what they protect against not what they protect and do not protect. If mage armor and protective spells that do not say they protect gear do not then they are fairly useless in combat. As it will leave the mage naked in the after math and vulnerable in a MDC environment.

It may not a big deal to you but to some finding out mages are getting a major nerf (If some one is use to playing without your assumption then playing under it would fill like a nerf.) would lead to some negative fillings that ruin enjoyment of the game.

Personally I would be unlikely to play under a GM that runs with such a negative view to powers.

[Riftmaker]

I hate that class they start with all the good attack and defence spells are more immune to energy then a cosmo knight and they are immune to the new are rule for casters introduced in the same book. That last one just dumped all my hate on those rules on that mk class.

[Marcethus]

I love playing Mk's in the right kind of game. Or even the rare good aligned ones are fun too. To answer the OP's questions. Missiles lots of them. As well as railguns, and any other form of kinetic weapons.

[Axelmania]

If mage armor and protective spells that do not say they protect gear do not then they are fairly useless in combat. As it will leave the mage naked in the after math and vulnerable in a MDC environment.

That also happens if your armor is destroyed. Or if you had no armor, since not everyone necessarily starts with MDC armor or can afford to buy some or keep it repaired.

RUE makes spellcasting so quick now that combined with the GI Joe rule you could throw up some magic armor right after your armor dies. Before that, you needed a Talisman to fast-cast or that ward from FOM to give you temporary MDC.

[Zamion138]

We have always gave the MK armor the cary over power. There are enough other powerful things in the world to not make it game breaking.

[Blue_Lion]

If mage armor and protective spells that do not say they protect gear do not then they are fairly useless in combat. As it will leave the mage naked in the after math and vulnerable in a MDC environment.

That also happens if your armor is destroyed. Or if you had no armor, since not everyone necessarily starts with MDC armor or can afford to buy some or keep it repaired.

RUE makes spell casting so quick now that combined with the GI Joe rule you could throw up some magic armor right after your armor dies. Before that, you needed a Talisman to fast-cast or that ward from FOM to give you temporary MDC.

The part about not starting with armor, or being able to afford to maintain it is irreverent, to the point. (if you can't maintain your armor that is a major problem.)

Saying having to wait until your armor is destroyed to use defensive magic is the same as having your armor destroyed as a counter point is using a straw man defense. You are basically saying you have to run around without gear to use most magical defensive abilities or wait until such gear is broken to benefit then justify it by saying you are in the same condition as if your armor was destroyed. But that misses the difference that if it protect your gear then it would not be broken in the first place placing you in a much worse condition in the end for your class abilties to be usefull.

Having to wait tell after your gear is destroyed to use a protective spell is nearly useless and many groups ignore the GI rule.
Even with the GI joe rule it is fairly useless in combat with more than one foe if they the gear is broken and the fallow standard RPG combat rules of geek the mage. Foe 2 destroys your armor foe 3 kills you with a rail gun.

It is major nerf to spell casters based on interpretation that most defensive powers do not protect your worn gear. So many players that favor mages will not play under such GMs. (It is a GM call that is understandable that players will not stick with GMs that do so as they see it as Nerfing mages.)

By the way your statement about how to fast cast before RUE is incorrect. Until the change to the rules to the ones GMG you could do two spells but never said they took multiple non spell casting actions. The change to the rules reflected in GMG happened after the game had been out for quite awhile and even then TW items only took one action to use.

Note the point was that a poster said they would not play under such GMs, I was explaining the mind set to you not debating your interpretation of the rules. This would be better in its own thread than to keep hijacking how to deal with Mystic Knights.

[Blue_Lion]

We have always gave the MK armor the cary over power. There are enough other powerful things in the world to not make it game breaking.

Nether interpretation is in of itself game breaking but they do not support all play styles. People forget many of the mages in FOM where to make high power mages for groups with higher power threshold. They where not intended for main book classes but groups that allow high power charters. They should be in groups with things like dragon juicers cosmo-knights and other high power charters.

In low power campaigns I do not allow them, but when there are no limits on power they are fair game.

[HWalsh]

Having to wait tell after your gear is destroyed to use a protective spell is nearly useless and many groups ignore the GI rule.

Well, I don't think we can make decisions or suggestions to groups that aren't following the rules as written. Not using the "GI Joe rule" is a house rule and is not playing the game as intended. That is not an optional rule. Also, I should add, I don't think people often think of the way not using it nerfs anyone who doesn't play a natural MDC creature.

In many games I have seen, especially in recent years, players (in groups that don't use the proper MDC armor rules) won't play a non-MDC creature.

[Blue_Lion]

Of course not using a survival rule is going to nerf those it most affects. That is really common sense just they dislike the idea of the rule more than the nerf. (Note I sill play SDC races in groups that do not use the GI joe rule, it is a matter of play stile.)

Not that it relevant to my overall point that treating most powers as not protecting gear is pointless and often makes them fairly worthless in combat over all. Even for mages armor is your life in most fights. The mage spells do not protect gear further encourages play of MDC races.

How a house rule interacts with a common house rule is worth mentioning.

[Marcethus]

Another example of a power that protects armor and gear is the Burster's immunity to Fire.

[Svartalf]

Given that we know some abilities explicitly state protecting armor (the 'Energy Resistance' minor super ability in the conversion book, the 'Impervious to Fire' spell) those which do not state that probably just protect the person and not their gear.

Why leave the table? Mystic Knights are still pretty great even with this.

That may seam a logical assumption to you; or those that do not state what they protect can be just a matter of PB inconsistent writing style this can be supported by having at least one power that states what it does not protect(a psi armor list what it does not protect). Most defensive abilities just list what they protect against not what they protect and do not protect. If mage armor and protective spells that do not say they protect gear do not then they are fairly useless in combat. As it will leave the mage naked in the after math and vulnerable in a MDC environment.

It may not a big deal to you but to some finding out mages are getting a major nerf (If some one is use to playing without your assumption then playing under it would fill like a nerf.) would lead to some negative fillings that ruin enjoyment of the game.

Personally I would be unlikely to play under a GM that runs with such a negative view to powers.

thanks for stating things so cogently

[VictoryWeaver]

I would say literally any non-energy source of damage that can actually affect their armor.

[Marcethus]

Ultimate Answer: Phase Beamers

[drewkitty ~..~]

Ultimate Answer: Phase Beamers

Which are just slightly less rare then Unobtainium on rifts earth.

[Axelmania]

I thought phase beamers were powered by e clips so that mage them energy weapons.

Groups which houserule to remove the GI Joe rule can house rule to make protective spells more protective if they like.

If I own a rune weapon doing 4D6 then Ice Blade would seem less useful. Sometimes having gear does that. In games where MD is less omnipresent and economy is respected, not being able to use magic to safeguard your MDC armor still leaves it very useful.

[Marcethus]

Ultimate Answer: Phase Beamers

Which are just slightly less rare then Unobtainium on rifts earth.

You're point is very valid. I wasn't thinking only Rifts Earth when I typed that. Which is why I hold to the Railguns and missiles as the answer using Rifts Earth only.

I thought phase beamers were powered by e clips so that mage them energy weapons.

Snip

Incorrect. They are powered by specialized clips whose internal workings are partly out of phase with reality. Hence making Phase World and the prometheans the only race that can repair, recharge or replace them.

[Nightmask]

I thought phase beamers were powered by e clips so that mage them energy weapons.

Snip

Incorrect. They are powered by specialized clips whose internal workings are partly out of phase with reality. Hence making Phase World and the prometheans the only race that can repair, recharge or replace them.

That last part is partially incorrect, while Phase Beamers can't be repaired by anyone but a Promethean they still run on standard Phase-World e-clips which can be recharged just fine.

[The Beast]

I thought phase beamers were powered by e clips so that mage them energy weapons.

Snip

Incorrect. They are powered by specialized clips whose internal workings are partly out of phase with reality. Hence making Phase World and the prometheans the only race that can repair, recharge or replace them.

That last part is partially incorrect, while Phase Beamers can't be repaired by anyone but a Promethean they still run on standard Phase-World e-clips which can be recharged just fine.

And it's the technology of the Prometheans that causes those weapons to override any special defense of an individual, be it vampire, cosmos-knight, scarecrow, or mystic knight. A species would have to specifically state they have a resistance or immunity to P-Beamers in order to not take full damage from them.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[Zamion138]

I thought phase beamers were powered by e clips so that mage them energy weapons.

Groups which houserule to remove the GI Joe rule can house rule to make protective spells more protective if they like.

If I own a rune weapon doing 4D6 then Ice Blade would seem less useful. Sometimes having gear does that. In games where MD is less omnipresent and economy is respected, not being able to use magic to safeguard your MDC armor still leaves it very useful.

Nueral maces and vibro blades run on e-clips too, while i think MK are immue to the effects of the mace, they most certainly are not immune to vibro blades.

Every table and online game I have played at has allowed things like armor ithan and armor bizarre to cover your armor, and your back pack and combat belt/chest rig for that matter. Players want to be able to add some mdc protection before combat to safe gaurd paying for repairs after every minor conflict.

If you want to be truly realistic you should be running the mdc of every piece of gear they carry, thusly making ngr pump pistols insanely more deadly as its 1 foot blast raidus is highly likely to tear up your rifle and grenades and all the rest . This doesnt sound fun to me as a player and becomes a record keepers nightmare for the gm.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...

I thought phase beamers were powered by e clips so that mage them energy weapons.

Snip

Incorrect. They are powered by specialized clips whose internal workings are partly out of phase with reality. Hence making Phase World and the prometheans the only race that can repair, recharge or replace them.

Marc….which book (page/paragraph) is this specifically said about Phase Beamer E-clips?

[Marcethus]

snip...

I thought phase beamers were powered by e clips so that mage them energy weapons.

Snip

Incorrect. They are powered by specialized clips whose internal workings are partly out of phase with reality. Hence making Phase World and the prometheans the only race that can repair, recharge or replace them.

Marc….which book (page/paragraph) is this specifically said about Phase Beamer E-clips?

Dimension Book 2: Phase World page 122 third paragraph under the heading: Phase Technology

[The Beast]

Yeah, I think you're adding in words that aren't there. Weapons that don't use standard e-clips are typically labeled as such, and mention that they need an adapter to use (Arkhorn weapons) or you need to return to the manufacturer for more ammo (Naruni plasma cartridge weapons). I see no such wording for the e-clips of P-Beamers, which leads me to believe that they run off of standard e-clips, which leads me to believe they can be recharged just about anywhere.

Now it does mention that servicing the weapons can be done only by Prometheans. Normally however, when one speaks of servicing a weapon, what they mean is repairs, deep cleaning, and maintenance service that's higher than operator-level maintenance.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[Marcethus]

I am not adding in words at all. When you look at the phrasing under the Phase Tech combined with what it says under the Space Ships section of what it says regarding Phase FTL Engines. It is not hard to surmise that the clips are not standard at all.

[Nightmask]

I am not adding in words at all. When you look at the phrasing under the Phase Tech combined with what it says under the Space Ships section of what it says regarding Phase FTL Engines. It is not hard to surmise that the clips are not standard at all.

No reason to be combining those two sections for one, nor does the phrasing actually state or imply that you have to use special e-clips that can only be recharged by a Promethean in Phase Beamers, if they required something like that it would be explicitly noted because that's a significant limitation to the point virtually nobody would use them, they wouldn't have much if any market for them if they had to be recharged in such a fashion.

[Svartalf]

The phrasing that phase guns can't be "serviced" by anybody but prometheans is ambiguous, especially since the ammo cap for them does not specify the kind of clip.

[eliakon]

Personally...
I would say that its just enough of a grey area that I could see a GM ruling that you need PE-Clips (Promethian E-Clips) for phase weapons. I would also say that it doesn't really seem like that was the intent... but considering that the PW book was basically one of the most massive boosts in power published I don't really see the problem in doing something that might (possibly) nerf (slightly) one of the most powerful weapons in the game.

I would also point out though that Vibro-Blades, despite their name... works because 'they are surrounded by a high frequency energy field" or some such text... and as such may well be stopped by energy protection.

[The Beast]

Personally...
I would say that its just enough of a grey area that I could see a GM ruling that you need PE-Clips (Promethian E-Clips) for phase weapons. I would also say that it doesn't really seem like that was the intent... but considering that the PW book was basically one of the most massive boosts in power published I don't really see the problem in doing something that might (possibly) nerf (slightly) one of the most powerful weapons in the game.

I would also point out though that Vibro-Blades, despite their name... works because 'they are surrounded by a high frequency energy field" or some such text... and as such may well be stopped by energy protection.

At the very least the energy field wouldn't cause damage. There still is the knife portion, though I know of no book that mentions what that damage would be.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[eliakon]

Personally...
I would say that its just enough of a grey area that I could see a GM ruling that you need PE-Clips (Promethian E-Clips) for phase weapons. I would also say that it doesn't really seem like that was the intent... but considering that the PW book was basically one of the most massive boosts in power published I don't really see the problem in doing something that might (possibly) nerf (slightly) one of the most powerful weapons in the game.

I would also point out though that Vibro-Blades, despite their name... works because 'they are surrounded by a high frequency energy field" or some such text... and as such may well be stopped by energy protection.

At the very least the energy field wouldn't cause damage. There still is the knife portion, though I know of no book that mentions what that damage would be.

I would guess... use normal knife damage?

[Zamion138]

They vibrate at extremely high frequency and rapidly, so if anything its sonic damage.

[eliakon]

They vibrate at extremely high frequency and rapidly, so if anything its sonic damage.

While that is a normal definition... that is not what Palladium defines them as (yes this is confusing... but meh, I don't write the books). if they were just a full 'vibrating knife' it would be a lot easier.

[flatline]

Phase weapons for ships don't require any special power source. I see no reason to believe that phase beamers wouldn't use regular (3-galaxies) e-clips.

[Marcethus]

I am not adding in words at all. When you look at the phrasing under the Phase Tech combined with what it says under the Space Ships section of what it says regarding Phase FTL Engines. It is not hard to surmise that the clips are not standard at all.

No reason to be combining those two sections for one, nor does the phrasing actually state or imply that you have to use special e-clips that can only be recharged by a Promethean in Phase Beamers, if they required something like that it would be explicitly noted because that's a significant limitation to the point virtually nobody would use them, they wouldn't have much if any market for them if they had to be recharged in such a fashion.

Actually it does seem to imply the use of a special clip. Most weapons when they list their payload will list X shots per standard e-clip using parenthesis to indicate how many shot in a long e-clip. The Phase Beamers do not they just list X shots.

This is one of those gray areas though that will have to go by GM's call more than anything findable in the books though since there is very limited information on Phase Weaponry besides what is listed in DB2.

[Axelmania]

The only thing I can find suggesting a non-E-clip ammo source is on page 29 of DB2 under Standard Equipment for the Time Master OCC. They have a."phase weapon of choice", an "energy weapon" and "1D6 E-Cells". This may imply that all phase weapons run on these mysterious E cells..I can't remember seeing these mentioned anywhere else.

Adepts and Mystics start with a phase beamer (size un specified)but no obvious ammo.

Me: Declares simultaneous strike, Paired Weapons: Parry the sword (success), Simultaneous Attack: Body Flip/Throw

I thought when paired weapon allowed a simultaneous strike-parry that the strike had to be with one of the weapons. The only weapon I know which can be used to do a body flip is the.trident in Underseas which is two handed so can't be used as paired.

[Nightmask]

I am not adding in words at all. When you look at the phrasing under the Phase Tech combined with what it says under the Space Ships section of what it says regarding Phase FTL Engines. It is not hard to surmise that the clips are not standard at all.

No reason to be combining those two sections for one, nor does the phrasing actually state or imply that you have to use special e-clips that can only be recharged by a Promethean in Phase Beamers, if they required something like that it would be explicitly noted because that's a significant limitation to the point virtually nobody would use them, they wouldn't have much if any market for them if they had to be recharged in such a fashion.

Actually it does seem to imply the use of a special clip. Most weapons when they list their payload will list X shots per standard e-clip using parenthesis to indicate how many shot in a long e-clip. The Phase Beamers do not they just list X shots.

This is one of those gray areas though that will have to go by GM's call more than anything findable in the books though since there is very limited information on Phase Weaponry besides what is listed in DB2.

You're reading into that something that's not there. If you only use one particular style of e-clip then there's no reason to list short/long number of shots because there's only the one you use it doesn't even remotely suggest or imply that because you don't see a separate number that it somehow uses a special e-clip. A weapon that can only use short e-clips for example is obviously not going to have a separate listing for shots with a long e-clip because it can't use them it doesn't mean that it's got a special e-clip all its own that's different than all other e-clips. From what I remember I don't think Phase World uses short and long e-clips but has one general clip (based on references to the Rifts-earth modified version of the plasma gun that had short and long e-clip shot numbers given but stated only a single number for using phaseworld e-clips implying there was only one type that Phaseworld uses).

[Marcethus]

I am not adding in words at all. When you look at the phrasing under the Phase Tech combined with what it says under the Space Ships section of what it says regarding Phase FTL Engines. It is not hard to surmise that the clips are not standard at all.

No reason to be combining those two sections for one, nor does the phrasing actually state or imply that you have to use special e-clips that can only be recharged by a Promethean in Phase Beamers, if they required something like that it would be explicitly noted because that's a significant limitation to the point virtually nobody would use them, they wouldn't have much if any market for them if they had to be recharged in such a fashion.

Actually it does seem to imply the use of a special clip. Most weapons when they list their payload will list X shots per standard e-clip using parenthesis to indicate how many shot in a long e-clip. The Phase Beamers do not they just list X shots.

This is one of those gray areas though that will have to go by GM's call more than anything findable in the books though since there is very limited information on Phase Weaponry besides what is listed in DB2.

You're reading into that something that's not there. If you only use one particular style of e-clip then there's no reason to list short/long number of shots because there's only the one you use it doesn't even remotely suggest or imply that because you don't see a separate number that it somehow uses a special e-clip. A weapon that can only use short e-clips for example is obviously not going to have a separate listing for shots with a long e-clip because it can't use them it doesn't mean that it's got a special e-clip all its own that's different than all other e-clips. From what I remember I don't think Phase World uses short and long e-clips but has one general clip (based on references to the Rifts-earth modified version of the plasma gun that had short and long e-clip shot numbers given but stated only a single number for using phaseworld e-clips implying there was only one type that Phaseworld uses).

It's a grey area in which GM's will have to make their individual calls to fit the needs of their game.

[Nightmask]

I am not adding in words at all. When you look at the phrasing under the Phase Tech combined with what it says under the Space Ships section of what it says regarding Phase FTL Engines. It is not hard to surmise that the clips are not standard at all.

No reason to be combining those two sections for one, nor does the phrasing actually state or imply that you have to use special e-clips that can only be recharged by a Promethean in Phase Beamers, if they required something like that it would be explicitly noted because that's a significant limitation to the point virtually nobody would use them, they wouldn't have much if any market for them if they had to be recharged in such a fashion.

Actually it does seem to imply the use of a special clip. Most weapons when they list their payload will list X shots per standard e-clip using parenthesis to indicate how many shot in a long e-clip. The Phase Beamers do not they just list X shots.

This is one of those gray areas though that will have to go by GM's call more than anything findable in the books though since there is very limited information on Phase Weaponry besides what is listed in DB2.

You're reading into that something that's not there. If you only use one particular style of e-clip then there's no reason to list short/long number of shots because there's only the one you use it doesn't even remotely suggest or imply that because you don't see a separate number that it somehow uses a special e-clip. A weapon that can only use short e-clips for example is obviously not going to have a separate listing for shots with a long e-clip because it can't use them it doesn't mean that it's got a special e-clip all its own that's different than all other e-clips. From what I remember I don't think Phase World uses short and long e-clips but has one general clip (based on references to the Rifts-earth modified version of the plasma gun that had short and long e-clip shot numbers given but stated only a single number for using phaseworld e-clips implying there was only one type that Phaseworld uses).

It's a grey area in which GM's will have to make their individual calls to fit the needs of their game.

It's not a grey area it's black and white, phase weapons do not use special can-only-be-recharged-by-a-Promethian e-clips they use standard Phaseworld e-clips. There's NOTHING to suggest otherwise.

[Marcethus]

We will have to agree to disagree then.

[ShadowLogan]

if they required something like that it would be explicitly noted because that's a significant limitation to the point virtually nobody would use them, they wouldn't have much if any market for them if they had to be recharged in such a fashion.

I'm not sure that "nobody would use them" part. Naruni has their Plasma Cartridges, Wilk's has their CTF cartridges, Columbia has their Rocket Rounds, and various TW items, and Vibro-Blades (specialized energy cell), or the Wilk's Laser Sword (probably not the best example given text), etc. I agree it could be a limiting factor on the market, but I do not think it would limit sales to virtually non-existant status given Rifts has several examples of such items that should also be similarly effected.

Actually it does seem to imply the use of a special clip. Most weapons when they list their payload will list X shots per standard e-clip using parenthesis to indicate how many shot in a long e-clip. The Phase Beamers do not they just list X shots.

This is one of those gray areas though that will have to go by GM's call more than anything findable in the books though since there is very limited information on Phase Weaponry besides what is listed in DB2.

No it does not imply the use of a special clip. When a special clip/magazine is used/required it is noted. What the lack of Standard/Long Eclip payloads indicates is that the weapon can not accept a Long E-Clip that is all.

If Phase Weapons required a special power source it would be noted in the description, as seen under the Psionic Crystal Technology examples (pg127-8). Outside of DB2 I can think of several examples: Triax's FSE design in WB5, or various RT Books when discussing Protoculture Clips or regular energy clips, or New West's CTF, IIRC Eclips the Arkons use in SA2 aren't standard, PPE-Clips in FoM, Rocket Guns in SA1, and energy canisters (RMB).

In DB2 the GR-45HP and GR-15AR (pg126), the GR-10P (pg125), the EP5 & EPR-8 (pg116), the various HI-# weapons on pg115 only list a single payload figure, not Standard/Long breakdown. We can also include the Naruni cartridge weapons here to (pg117-8). While the GR and Naruni aren't using Eclips, they have a single magazine size which is important.

The only weapon in DB2 that had standard/long Eclip payloads was the Naruni NE-50 (pg118).

So really the lack of a Long/Standard divide really comes down to the weapon not being able to accept other models of Eclip. And DB2 isn't really alone in this, I just quick glanced at RMB weapons and they are pretty heavy on the single type of payload in the CS and independents sections.

[Axelmania]

To get really technical, a lot of weapons don't specify how their ammunition is stored at all, so for all we know none of these use e-clips and maybe can't have their ammo instantly restored that way. Maybe they all need to be taken to a recharge facility.

Let's observe other holes in DB2:
*pg 115 the HI-10 Heavy Laser Pistol (although one might assume it uses the same 2,000 credit standard clip as the HI-30)
*pg 115 the HI-80 Combat Laser Rifle (although one might assume it uses the same 3,500 credit standard clip as the HI-50, doesn't seem to sacrifice on number of shows like the pistols though)
*pg 116 the EP-5 Energy Pulse Pistol and the EPR-8 Energy Pulse Rifle. Neither mention any use of clips, although one might assume the TGE weapons operate on the 2000/3500 clips that the HI series by the CCW does.
*pg 123 the PH-21 Phaser Beamer, like the EP-5 and HI-10 you might assume it runs on the 2000 credit clip as the HI-30, but no telling for sure
*pg 123 the PH-100 and PH-400, like the EPR-8 and HI-80 you might assume it runs on the same 3500 clip as the HI-50, but no knowing for sure

[Zamion138]

These magazine/clip issues better all be theoretical cause it has never been an issue in game play in any format ive ever played in.
(Sans explaining NE uses cartridges not eclips 2 or 3 times)