Astral Projection and the Astral Plane question topic

[drewkitty ~..~]

A free ranging discussion area. for everyone to pose their questions.

EDIT: And for posting of things you think people should know. (please include the location where they are found.)
And your own house rules.
Please clearly say they are house rules when you post them, and please no arguing over house rules.

I'll start it off…

In another topic the there was a question about if a were-person's attacks would hurt vamps if the were-person was astral projecting at the time. This brought up a thought about the ATB2 animal psi replacement limb powers and wondering if they would be able to interact with the physical world if astral projecting within the physical plane?

What are your thoughts about this?

[eliakon]

My personal go to rule, is that only sensitive style powers work 'across the worlds' as it were.
So you can read a mind, but not TK a lock. This removes the temptation for all sorts of shenanigans involving nigh-undetectable assassins with perfect weapons (and yes, this is based on years of such shenanigans in games).

I also make it go both ways. Sensitive powers can affect the astral projector.

[Marcethus]

All psi-powers that do not require touch will work and affect the physical realms. Other than ones that produce energy such as psi-sword. So yes you could TK a lock but not use Pyro-kinesis to throw a fire bolt at someone.

In regards to the Astral projected Were: unless the vampire was also astral projecting no he wouldn't be able to physically harm the vamp.

The psi limb thing I am not sure on as I do not have ATB books. Though it's a psionic limb so I am unsure as of which way to lean on that one.

Though Astral Lords and Mages can affect astral beings even when they are in the physical and the being is coexisting with the physical but in astral form.

[Axelmania]

Vampires appear to be an exception in that the essence animating the corpse is targetable. This is why the Ecto Hunter can hurt them. So you are not so much astral clawing the undead flesh as you ate the AI essence fragment.

[Marcethus]

What book is the ecto-hunter from?

[ShadowLogan]

Ecto-Hunter was IIRC (the thread drewkitty mentions) from Mystic Russia

[flatline]

The rules surrounding astral projection are so poorly written and easy to abuse that every GM I've known has nerfed it severely.

After house rules were applied, it was basically a risky way to spy, but offered no way to effect changes on the material world.

--flatline

[Marcethus]

I do not see how the rules regarding Astral Projection are poorly written. Granted using Main books only there is very little that can interfere with someone Astral Projecting. But that is why I use the rules presented in NB: Between the Shadows with a few house rules. But I do not nerf it.

Figures it would be a book that is buried in one of the many boxes my books are housed in. So for the time being I can't speak on the Ecto-Hunter's ability to hurt Vampires.

[flatline]

I do not see how the rules regarding Astral Projection are poorly written. Granted using Main books only there is very little that can interfere with someone Astral Projecting. But that is why I use the rules presented in NB: Between the Shadows with a few house rules. But I do not nerf it.

Figures it would be a book that is buried in one of the many boxes my books are housed in. So for the time being I can't speak on the Ecto-Hunter's ability to hurt Vampires.

What happens if the astral projector doesn't return to their body when the duration is up? That seems like a pretty important detail that they managed to leave out of the rules. The implication is that the results are dire, but they don't actually tell us what the results are.

Similarly, they say any psionic with range greater than touch can affect the material world, but don't tell us if it works the other way (psionics from the material world affecting astral travelers).

Similarly, it says that magic has full effect. So does that mean call lightning cast from the material plane will automatically hit the astral traveler and do MD? (probably an instant kill since astral travelers are SDC...).

If psionics cast while astral projecting can affect the material world, what about magic spells?

It's not necessarily that the existing rules are bad, just that the rules surrounding the use of astral projection are woefully insufficient.

--flatline

[Marcethus]

While it is considered Optional alot of your questions are answered in the article in Rifter 9 on the Astral Plane.

In regards to Astral Projection if they run out of ISP they are snapped back to their body and must make a save (Can't recall specifics of the save.) or they fall into a coma.

I agree that the base book rules in regards to Astral Projection and it's implications were incomplete. By combining Nightbane's Between the Shadows and the Rifter 9 Article many of those points are solved.

[eliakon]

While it is considered Optional alot of your questions are answered in the article in Rifter 9 on the Astral Plane.

In regards to Astral Projection if they run out of ISP they are snapped back to their body and must make a save (Can't recall specifics of the save.) or they fall into a coma.

I agree that the base book rules in regards to Astral Projection and it's implications were incomplete. By combining Nightbane's Between the Shadows and the Rifter 9 Article many of those points are solved.

Which is exactly what he said... the RAW is so nebulous that it has to be house ruled into submission. And yes, I would say that using a book from another game line, and an unofficial article are examples of house rules.

[Marcethus]

Not when that Book from another game line is specifically mentioned in more than a few books as being The resource when it comes to the Astral Plane. I also do not think that using Rifter Articles are house rules. While they are optional they can be considered semi official as they are after all Rifter's and published by the company.

[Library Ogre]

My personal go to rule, is that only sensitive style powers work 'across the worlds' as it were.
So you can read a mind, but not TK a lock. This removes the temptation for all sorts of shenanigans involving nigh-undetectable assassins with perfect weapons (and yes, this is based on years of such shenanigans in games).

I also make it go both ways. Sensitive powers can affect the astral projector.

What about super-psionic powers?

[Axelmania]

Ecto-Hunter is in Warlords of Russia, strangely enough.

Astral Avenger might be the only astral guy I know who can use stuff like Psi-Sword to hurt people. Seems like a unique situation brought on by psi-implants.

[Marcethus]

I have ran across a few GM's who have ruled that the Psi-Sword can hurt astral creatures because it is a construct of psychic energy. As well as being able to hurt things physically while in astral form for the same reasons. Which in a way makes sense, I may have to reevaluate my rulings on Psi-Sword. But all other energy attacks generated by magic and psionics will generally not cross over when in astral form. Some exceptions do exist though I cannot list them out at this time.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Ecto-Hunter is in Warlords of Russia, strangely enough.

Astral Avenger might be the only astral guy I know who can use stuff like Psi-Sword to hurt people. Seems like a unique situation brought on by psi-implants.

I would think that the question about Ecto-Hunter abilities would be to whether or not they hurt vamps when co-existing int he physical plane while astral projecting.

[Axelmania]

Yeah... personally I think they would because the ability targets spirits to begin with, it explicitly doesn't work on physical creatures, vampires are uniquely vulnerable due to the AI fragment living in them. I imagine that would also mean Ecto-Hunters could do harm to Pact of Unity witches.

[Marcethus]

I would have to read the Ecto-Hunter before I could say one way or the other. And I am currently too lazy to bother pulling out my Russia books.

[eliakon]

Not when that Book from another game line is specifically mentioned in more than a few books as being The resource when it comes to the Astral Plane. I also do not think that using Rifter Articles are house rules. While they are optional they can be considered semi official as they are after all Rifter's and published by the company.

unofficial optional rules are basically the definition of "house rules".
And yes, while the Between the Shadows is referenced a few times in other books... again, with out a house/unofficial rule it doesn't work as written for any other setting...

Back to "nebulous"

And even WITH those materials you still have tons of vague unanswered questions that are not covered that have to be addressed...

[eliakon]

My personal go to rule, is that only sensitive style powers work 'across the worlds' as it were.
So you can read a mind, but not TK a lock. This removes the temptation for all sorts of shenanigans involving nigh-undetectable assassins with perfect weapons (and yes, this is based on years of such shenanigans in games).

I also make it go both ways. Sensitive powers can affect the astral projector.

What about super-psionic powers?

I rule, basically on the BTS2 theory of "what would this be if there were no 'super' category'. Group Mindblock is thus a 'sensitive' power for these purposes, and Super Telekinesis is a 'physical' one.

[drewkitty ~..~]

unofficial optional rules are basically the definition of "house rules".
…snip

And Officially Optional rules are not house rules.

[eliakon]

unofficial optional rules are basically the definition of "house rules".
…snip

And Officially Optional rules are not house rules.

I would say that they are Since you have to make a house call to put them into play or not. They are pretty much the definition of a house rule.
They are just very common house rules. But they are not canon, they are not official, and they are not even Officially Optional, they are just "Rifter Optional" which I do not consider to be anywhere near the same level of official status as the optional rules in the books. This is because the Rifter is pretty clear that they put material that is flat out anti-canon in the Rifter and say it is "optional".

[drewkitty ~..~]

being published in the rifters makes everything in the rifters at very least officially optional.
Yes, I understand your PoV, but it runs contrary to what the rifters are, officially.

Note, I am not saying everything in the rifters is canon, cause there is very little in them that is canon.

[Prysus]

being published in the rifters makes everything in the rifters at very least officially optional.

Greetings and Salutations. A quote from Rifter #1 and Rifter #71 & 72 issue (similar quotes can be found in every issue as far as I'm aware, though Rifter #73 really was "official").

Optional and Unofficial Rules & Source Material
Please note, the vast majority of rules, tables, characters, adventures, and storiese are "optional" or "alternative" things one can include in his campaign or enjoy reading. They are not "official" to the main games or the world settings.

Optional and Unofficial Rules & Source Material
Please note that most of the material presented in The Rifter is "unofficial" or "optional" rules and source material.
They are alternative ideas, homespun adventures and material mostly created by fellow gamers and fans like you, the reader. Things one can elect to include in one's own campaign or simply enjoy reading about. They are not "official" to the main games or world settings.

Those sections are slightly longer, but I wanted to quote the part where they specify things like "unofficial" and tell us they are NOT "official." They say "unofficial" right in that heading. In later issues they felt the need to repeat "unofficial" again in the text that follows. I am baffled by the fact people still try to argue things like "officially optional" (not talking about specific articles or issues that state they're "Official" as the exception to the rule) when each Rifter tells us they're "Unofficial and Optional."

The newer section I quoted also says it's created by fans the same as everyone reading. So if the Rifter is "officially optional" (even though the Rifter tells us this is false), and it's the same as every other fans creations, then EVERY fan material ever made (found on the internet or anywhere else) is "officially optional," which ultimately tells us that the term has no value at all.

I say this as a Rifter contributor. My work is not Official (unless Palladium decides to one day label it as such and/or print it in an official sourcebook or something). I've seen other Rifter contributors try to pass their stuff off as official (or equivalent of officially optional), but each Rifter tells us the truth. I don't feel the need to lie or try to make that work into something bigger than it is. Being honest with ourselves and with others is a big part of giving accurate information. This last part isn't even directed at any person in particular, but a general thought I felt the need to share. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[eliakon]

being published in the rifters makes everything in the rifters at very least officially optional.

Greetings and Salutations. A quote from Rifter #1 and Rifter #71 & 72 issue (similar quotes can be found in every issue as far as I'm aware, though Rifter #73 really was "official").

Optional and Unofficial Rules & Source Material
Please note, the vast majority of rules, tables, characters, adventures, and storiese are "optional" or "alternative" things one can include in his campaign or enjoy reading. They are not "official" to the main games or the world settings.

Optional and Unofficial Rules & Source Material
Please note that most of the material presented in The Rifter is "unofficial" or "optional" rules and source material.
They are alternative ideas, homespun adventures and material mostly created by fellow gamers and fans like you, the reader. Things one can elect to include in one's own campaign or simply enjoy reading about. They are not "official" to the main games or world settings.

Those sections are slightly longer, but I wanted to quote the part where they specify things like "unofficial" and tell us they are NOT "official." They say "unofficial" right in that heading. In later issues they felt the need to repeat "unofficial" again in the text that follows. I am baffled by the fact people still try to argue things like "officially optional" (not talking about specific articles or issues that state they're "Official" as the exception to the rule) when each Rifter tells us they're "Unofficial and Optional."

The newer section I quoted also says it's created by fans the same as everyone reading. So if the Rifter is "officially optional" (even though the Rifter tells us this is false), and it's the same as every other fans creations, then EVERY fan material ever made (found on the internet or anywhere else) is "officially optional," which ultimately tells us that the term has no value at all.

I say this as a Rifter contributor. My work is not Official (unless Palladium decides to one day label it as such and/or print it in an official sourcebook or something). I've seen other Rifter contributors try to pass their stuff off as official (or equivalent of officially optional), but each Rifter tells us the truth. I don't feel the need to lie or try to make that work into something bigger than it is. Being honest with ourselves and with others is a big part of giving accurate information. This last part isn't even directed at any person in particular, but a general thought I felt the need to share. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Thank you. As usual your post is clear, detailed, researched, and insightful. (And says what I was trying to articulate better than I could even think it, let alone say ).

[Axelmania]

I rule, basically on the BTS2 theory of "what would this be if there were no 'super' category'. Group Mindblock is thus a 'sensitive' power for these purposes, and Super Telekinesis is a 'physical' one.

Mind Block is also classified as a physical psionic power so I would be prone to thinking of Group Mind Block in that way since it's not just about your own sensibilities but of putting up a physical shield around others.

[Marcethus]

I rule, basically on the BTS2 theory of "what would this be if there were no 'super' category'. Group Mindblock is thus a 'sensitive' power for these purposes, and Super Telekinesis is a 'physical' one.

Mind Block is also classified as a physical psionic power so I would be prone to thinking of Group Mind Block in that way since it's not just about your own sensibilities but of putting up a physical shield around others.

Mind Block is in both the Physical and the Sensitive Category. Also Mind Block doesn't put up a physical shield up it puts a mental one up.

[Axelmania]

I said "also" which I believe supports it being in both.

Whether the shield is physical or not depends on if you're in the Dreamstream

[Marcethus]

I said "also" which I believe supports it being in both.

Whether the shield is physical or not depends on if you're in the Dreamstream

What Mind Block does in the Dreamstream is specific to that realm and that realm is specific to the Nightbane Setting. I was referring to the generalized palladium megaverse. Not a single specific instance.

[Axelmania]

Given that it is a 'physical' power I must assume there is a physical component to it when selected from that category, it can't be purely mental or it wouldn't be there.

[Library Ogre]

My view of Mind Block is that it's aura manipulation... you build your aura into a shield around you, protecting your mind from intrusion by other powers. As such, it fits a bit better with physical, but is can also be a sensitive power.