Latent Nightbane (Special or not?) & Nightbane Psionics

[Achalon1]

Ok, I an curious as to the nature of a latent nightbane? Are they immune to transformations? Can they be turned into a vampire, for instance? Do they have ANY distinguishing abilities from that of a normal human?

Also, on nightbane and psionics, if a nightbane were, for example, to step in front of the portal of light in the city of Alzum the Asylum on Rifts Atlantis, would the nightbane gain the psionic abilities? If it was a latent nightbane, would they gain the abilities?

I know that if a Nightbane falls into a bio-vat from Dyval they would be burned like stepping in acid, what would happen to a latent nightbane?

This is bugging me...

[drewkitty ~..~]

It is unknown what the nature of a NB who has not had their becoming other then that it is implied that they live out their lives as humans.

NB can not "gain" Psi abilities. This is excluded from their nature. Much like the Seljuke (Rex-like aliens in the PW book) cannot have any sort of magic.

I would rule that unawakened NB would not be able to gain psi abilities what so ever.

I would rule that falling into a "vat of something horrible" would trigger the NB's becoming.

[Achalon1]

I agree that something like falling into a bio vat could initiate the becoming, but I don't agree with the logic behind the psionics.

I would assume that a Seljuke could gain the Gift of Knowledge from the World Tree in Asgard. Magic is not something their race is "typically" capable of, but gifted power like that could easily bypass a racial restriction.

I suppose one of the big questions here is wether a latent nightbane has that magical gene-lock that prevents them from being transformed by any means, another is why they don't/can't have psionics. If it's just a standard racial feature, then that can be bypassed, even with their supernatural nature.

But even then, the portal in Atlantis that grants psionics supposedly affects every race that encounters it in the exact same way. Now I'm more than happy to believe that the Splugorth have never had the opportunity to try it on a Nightbane, but they would have most certainly used it on a True Atlantean - Which is the only other race I can think of off hand that is also completely immune to transformations of any kind! So if it works on a True Atlantean, it should also work on a Nightbane.

Note, that the point of this discussion isn't to allow a Nightbane to take a Psychic OCC or anything like that, I'm just trying to determine wether a Nightbane, Latent or otherwise could have psionic abilities "Inflicted" upon them.

In the end, I'll decide what works best for my game, but I really want to hear other people's opinions on this.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Psionic Powers: None. Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic powers.

Magic Powers: None. Can never learn or use magic--no P.P.E.

The Seljuk burned the ability to make magic out of their race to save their world. They are unlike Dwarves, where the use of magic is a culturally enforced prohibition, it is something that there is no way 'get around'.

Same with the NB, there is no way to get around that they can't use psionics.

NB (awakened or not) exposure to the Alzum's portal, in my opinion, If it effected them at all would also cause an unawakened NB to have their becoming. (And maybe force an awakened NB into their Morphus.) While it might impose Talents that mimic psionic powers, it would not give them psionic powers.
(if imposing Psionic like Talents I would have them in addition to whatever Talents they already have or would get @ L1.)



There, I have stated my opinions and backed them up with relevant text. I have even backed up

[Glistam]

Ok, I an curious as to the nature of a latent nightbane? Are they immune to transformations? Can they be turned into a vampire, for instance?

There is no canon information on this, but the Wampyr O.C.C. gives the strong impression that they might be unawakened Nightbane who were turned before they underwent their becoming.

I have decided that is the case in my games, and based on that gives me a sort of "template" to adhere to should a transformation event befall a latent Nightbane. Essentially, the latent Nightbane nature corrupts the transforming force, perverting it and diluting it but not stopping it completely. I've never tried to apply this to other types of transformations but that is the thought process I would use if I did.

Do they have ANY distinguishing abilities from that of a normal human?

I believe the answer to this is no, and that is how I handle it in my game.

EDIT: To clarify: while they would seem outwardly and inwardly Human, I would not allow them to roll for minor or major psionics, and I would not let Magic Tattoos they acquire work. Thus, I would treat them like a Human Mutant but without their aura revealing anything is off about them.

Also, on nightbane and psionics, if a nightbane were, for example, to step in front of the portal of light in the city of Alzum the Asylum on Rifts Atlantis, would the nightbane gain the psionic abilities?

The Azlum portal is a special anomaly. Considering the being it has affected, I would allow it to bestow its abilities and insanities to a Nightbane. However, it is fairly apparent to me from the books that Nightbane are not meant to be psychic. Even the Mystic O.C.C., which a Nightbane can essentially take, does not bestow psionics upon the character. Two ideas occur to me now for how to address this. I'm not sure which I would chose (if indeed, either), until I was closer to the situation occurring and gave it some more thought:
1. The Nightbane can only use these new psychic powers in Human (Façade) form, and can no longer use Talents that are usable by the Façade. OR,
2. The Nightbane can no longer gain new Talents except by burning P.P.E. for them, and all P.P.E. costs are doubled.

If it was a latent nightbane, would they gain the abilities?

I would definitely say yes to this, and if the latent Nightbane ever underwent its Becoming I would then chose one of the two ways I listed above to deal with it. I suspect that being exposed to the portal may very well be a qualifying event to undergo the Becoming.

I know that if a Nightbane falls into a bio-vat from Dyval they would be burned like stepping in acid, what would happen to a latent nightbane?

I think in the end, despite looking and seeming completely Human, latent Nightbane are not Human, and would trigger being burned like a Nightbane. I would also allow that to stress the character out, allowing them to undergo their Becoming.

This is bugging me...

Sadly my answers are less canon and more house rule/what feels right, but I hope they help.

[Achalon1]

Hmmm.... Thank you for your views, guys.

Drewkitty, you seem very hardline that the answer is an absolute "no" without room to argue. I'm not attacking your position or anything, I'm just wondering if there's an expanded description of a nightbane's lack of psionic potential that I've missed. Simply lacking the natural capacity (totally in my opinion) shouldn't be enough to say that it can never happen.

Also, I didn't look up the Seljuk before, I didn't remember that part about burning it out of their race. -- This makes sense that magic should be a hard "no" for them, even against something like the Gift of Knowledge. Is there anything like this that I missed on Nightbane and psionics?

All in all, I'm fairly lenient with these types of things, but I'm leaning hard towards Glistam's concept. I like the whole idea about the Wampyre being a corrupted version of a vampire because of originally being a latent nightbane.

Thanks,

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is no room to argue about something is already specifically stated within canon.

You questions were ether are not answerable with canon answers or had answers within the the canon text already and only needed to applied to opinions about the interactions you asked about.

[Achalon1]

Wow... just... wow.

[eliakon]

My personal take here is that in "normal circumstances" there is no way a Nightbane can gain psionics.
Note 'normal circumstances' Something like the portal at Azlum is, in itself an example of, for lack of a better term, a singularity. It is a place where the rules break down and "stuff happens". In a highly unique situation like that I would say "go with what makes the better narrative". In my last Nightbane game, for example, the ban on Psionics was revealed to be part of an important plot point to the meta story (briefly psionic powers were revealed to be the expression/use of the racial 'oversoul' which is why psi-powers and types are racially linked. Nightbane were revealed to be an artificially created psudeo-race that was used by the Formless Ones to escape extinction... but the Over Soul was trapped, corrupted... and became The Dark... which means that until The Dark is dealt with, the entire races psionic ability is locked away.) In that game I would have allowed a Nightbane to have psi after being exposed... because it would have horrified my players as they tried to figure out what it meant. In that case, it would advance the story to have the specter of a psionic Nightbane, because it would make people wonder what was going on. In the game before that? Nope, I wouldn't have allowed it at all. I would have said "Since you can't be transformed in any way, and since the light is a transformation. You see...blinding light, feel a fleeting sense of unattainable longing...and step back out of the light unchanged."

Which brings up a second point, since a Nightbane "lacks the capacity to use psionic powers" they would have to some how have that capacity added. Which is difficult since they can not be transformed, and to me it would require a transformation to gain a capacity they do not have... Normally. I would be open to the idea of something that can, for lack of a better term, 'graft on' the capacity if such could be found that would work for them.


One of the big issues with Nightbane is that they were originally written for use in their game line and as such only had to be consistent with their games narrative. In which case the simple ban that they have is more than enough, as it covers all the usual sources (i.e. class). When you get out into the wider Megaverse you run into more edge cases, with some crossing the threshold from 'edge case' into full on 'rules singularity'

[Achalon1]

Well said, Eliakon. You make some great points. That story arc sounds very interesting and I fully endorse what you mean about the narrative. Originally, I just wanted to have a discussion about this because there's so little information on the nature of the Nightbane, especially latents, and I was curious as to what other people thought and how they ran their games. So thank you for the info. I agree with pretty much everything you said, except about the Atlantean Portal not being able to affect them.

My reasoning is this: -- And it's totally just my opinion based on an assumption and "lack" of specific information --

I'm assuming that True Atlantean's can be affected by the portal. I know that there's no definitive proof, but their race is introduced in the same book and the portal is said to be able to affect every creature put to it the same way. Based on that assumption, and the fact that Nightbane and True Atlanteans are the only species with a natural immunity to transformations, I'd allow it to affect Nightbane. I may modify the abilities gained in some way though as I like the concepts put forth by Glistam, but I'd allow it. I know that you could just as easily argue the opposite is true as the portals effects could be interpreted as a minor transformation on the victims and True Atlanteans are not specifically mentioned as susceptible, but It's just my feeling that they are.

On the flip side, if a Latent Nightbane were exposed, I'd probably rule that it affects them normally, but if they ever go through their Becoming they'd loose the psionics as their true nature asserts itself during the initial transformation. I'd probably boost their natural sensing range or give them a free talent or two, but I'd rule that the Becoming mostly overwrote whatever magic or genetic changes the portal granted.

As to how you mentioned that they would need to "have the capacity (for psionics) added," I wouldn't get too in depth with that. As supernatural creatures, I wouldn't allow anything strictly scientific to alter them (even before considering their immunity to transformations), but with something like the portal (an unusual supernatural event) I'd just rule that it gave them the limited capacity to enable the granted powers. Less headaches.

Thanks for posting,

[Marcethus]

IIRC Nightbane like True Atlanteans can not be transformed by ANY means. Now while I do not have the Atlantis book infront of me so I am not sure if what the portal does would be classified as transformation. IF it is qualified as a transformation then the Nightbane and the True Atlanteans wouldn't gain anything from it or be affected.

In regards to the Nightbane and their lack of Psionic ability. Being very familiar with the first 5 nightbane books (I haven't yet acquired the Nightbane Survival Guide, it is near the top of my list of books to get) Nightbane can not be nor ever acquire any form of psionic power save for GM supported storyline events like that which Eliakon mentioned in his post. The reason this is, is that Talents are the nightbane's equivalent of psionic powers. If need be just create a talent to fit the psionic power that you wish to mimic (with gm approval of course.) This is what I did years ago when I saw that there was no equivalent power to the psionic Telepathy.

Also it's for game balance. It specifically says that nightbane save as a Non-Psychic. It seems that psionics is meant to be the weak point of the Nightbanes

[drewkitty ~..~]

Other then the psionic issue….I would say they are driven insane just like other people. Maybe more so, cause NB are associated with the shadows and the portal is to a light dominated place.

Now the interesting thing would be to find out if the portal effects the Guardians in anyway. Good or bad, or they are like how children are effected by the light of the portal.

[Marcethus]

*Notes to self to pull out the Atlantis book and reread the Portal info when the chance is available*

[Achalon1]

Other then the psionic issue….I would say they are driven insane just like other people. Maybe more so, cause NB are associated with the shadows and the portal is to a light dominated place.

Now the interesting thing would be to find out if the portal effects the Guardians in anyway. Good or bad, or they are like how children are effected by the light of the portal.

Now this is an interesting idea...

[Axelmania]

Nightbane in theory could get psionic powers which they were incapable of using...

Which wouldn't exclude powers which you do not actually use, such as Mind-Block Auto-Defense.

Psionics like Dreamdance would also be beneficial because merely having the power gives you bonuses to dream combat even if you are not using it.

[Marcethus]

Nightbane are Non-Psionic. They cannot get nor use any psionic power. Tis their one weak point. They save as non-psychic (15 or higher needed). Their Talents are in place of psionics. Which is why a few of them defend against psychic powers.

[Axelmania]

They save as a non-psionic because they aren't initially psionic.

This is splitting hairs, but a disclaimer saying you can't use psionics isn't the same as saying you can't get them. You could become a psychic with psychic powers who is unable to use those powers. Sort of like how a wizard might know a spell but be unable to cast it due to lack of PPE or a hypnotic suggestion.

[Marcethus]

Actually it specifically says they are Non-Psychic. The Nightbane are a race that cannot get psychic abilities.

[Axelmania]

Whenever paraphrasing we should accompany it with the text it's based on to make sure we're interpreting it RAW. From page 88 of the main book:

Psionic Powers: None. Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic powers

This tells us two things:

1) Nightbane do not start with psionic powers are part of their RCC.

2) If they gain psionic powers through some other means, they lack the capability of using those powers.

Neither point tells us they can't gain psychic abilities or that they can't become psychics.

You can become a psychic without having any psychic powers. The 'Acolyte' OCC in Through the Glass Darkly is an example. They start with ISP to use psychic abilities, and are minor psychics but will only gain them if they opt to buy them with secondary skills.

If a GM allowed members of the Nightbane RCC to change to OCCs via the Palladium RPG / Palladium Fantasy errata rules, Nightbane who changed to the Acolyte OCC would thus become psychics, gain ISP they could spend on stuff like Techno-Wizard devices, but there wouldn't be any bbvious point in them spending secondary skills to buy psychic abilities, since if they did, they could not use the power.

The only exception I can think of would be in buying Dreamdance Minor or Dreamdance Superior. Those powers give bonuses to dream combat if you have the powers but it doesn't actually say you need to be using the powers to get those bonuses, so a Nightbane Acolyte could buy those powers to make himself more proficient in dream combat when using his Dream Self talent.

It is possible there is some text outside of page 88 which is more restrictive and could prove me wrong, if anyone knows where to look.

The only place I could think of is page 119 under the Nightbane Mystic OCC:

Psychic Powers: Unlike human mystics, Nightbane have no psionic potential whatsoever

This could only refer to in-born psychic potential though. Like for example, the ability to be born a psychic, the 'standard' notation we see on many races. Mystics are natural psychics, it's in-born, they don't train for it.

The Acolyte on the other hand, through exchanging skills for psychic powers, sounds a lot more like they are learning the psychic abilities, kind of like how a Cyber-Knight does. Cyber-Knights can learn their psychic abilities (including the Master Psionic power of Psi-Shield, at half cost to boot!) even if they are non-psychics.

So even races without psychic potential (ie no inborn natural chance) can LEARN psionics via OCCs that can teach it, like the Acolyte or the Cyber-Knight OCCs.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Actually it specifically says they are Non-Psychic. The Nightbane are a race that cannot get psychic abilities.

Marcethus has the right of it. To try to stretch this into that they can have psychic powers is entering the realm of house rules.

[Marcethus]

Psionics can not be taught. They can be awakened but not taught. If your race has no psionic potential then you can not ever become a class that has psionics.

[Nightmask]

Whenever paraphrasing we should accompany it with the text it's based on to make sure we're interpreting it RAW. From page 88 of the main book:

Psionic Powers: None. Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic powers

This tells us two things:

1) Nightbane do not start with psionic powers are part of their RCC.

2) If they gain psionic powers through some other means, they lack the capability of using those powers.

Neither point tells us they can't gain psychic abilities or that they can't become psychics.

You can become a psychic without having any psychic powers. The 'Acolyte' OCC in Through the Glass Darkly is an example. They start with ISP to use psychic abilities, and are minor psychics but will only gain them if they opt to buy them with secondary skills.

If a GM allowed members of the Nightbane RCC to change to OCCs via the Palladium RPG / Palladium Fantasy errata rules, Nightbane who changed to the Acolyte OCC would thus become psychics, gain ISP they could spend on stuff like Techno-Wizard devices, but there wouldn't be any bbvious point in them spending secondary skills to buy psychic abilities, since if they did, they could not use the power.

The only exception I can think of would be in buying Dreamdance Minor or Dreamdance Superior. Those powers give bonuses to dream combat if you have the powers but it doesn't actually say you need to be using the powers to get those bonuses, so a Nightbane Acolyte could buy those powers to make himself more proficient in dream combat when using his Dream Self talent.

It is possible there is some text outside of page 88 which is more restrictive and could prove me wrong, if anyone knows where to look.

The only place I could think of is page 119 under the Nightbane Mystic OCC:

Psychic Powers: Unlike human mystics, Nightbane have no psionic potential whatsoever

This could only refer to in-born psychic potential though. Like for example, the ability to be born a psychic, the 'standard' notation we see on many races. Mystics are natural psychics, it's in-born, they don't train for it.

The Acolyte on the other hand, through exchanging skills for psychic powers, sounds a lot more like they are learning the psychic abilities, kind of like how a Cyber-Knight does. Cyber-Knights can learn their psychic abilities (including the Master Psionic power of Psi-Shield, at half cost to boot!) even if they are non-psychics.

So even races without psychic potential (ie no inborn natural chance) can LEARN psionics via OCCs that can teach it, like the Acolyte or the Cyber-Knight OCCs.

Well that's completely wrong, no ability means just that no ability. If you have a race that's blind (i.e. 'has no ability to see') then they can't see period, they can't go and learn to see because they are totally lacking the ability. Nightbane are incapable of possessing psychic abilities by any means, no effort to give one psychic abilities will work because they're incapable of having them. So no in your example a Nightbane couldn't become an Acolyte and gain psychic abilities because they're incapable of having them, just as one couldn't become a Cyber-Knight for the same reason, they're incapable of developing psychic powers.

[Axelmania]

Psionics can not be taught. They can be awakened but not taught. If your race has no psionic potential then you can not ever become a class that has psionics.

Lack of psionic potential does not mean you can't gain it through some other means, like the psi-implants in Rifts Psyscape. Obviously there are complications with any implant-style stuff and Nightbane's regeneration though. Talo Mind Worms come to mind as one way that might not trigger expulsion as readily.

Even without using psychic powers, gaining psychic abilities is helpful for the higher save and ISP others could take from you.

Well that's completely wrong, no ability means just that no ability. If you have a race that's blind (i.e. 'has no ability to see') then they can't see period, they can't go and learn to see because they are totally lacking the ability. Nightbane are incapable of possessing psychic abilities by any means, no effort to give one psychic abilities will work because they're incapable of having them. So no in your example a Nightbane couldn't become an Acolyte and gain psychic abilities because they're incapable of having them, just as one couldn't become a Cyber-Knight for the same reason, they're incapable of developing psychic powers.

You are inventing your own statements here. Sticking to the RAW:

88: Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic powers
119: Nightbane have no psionic potential whatsoever

Find others if you like, otherwise I'll stick to those two.

This says nothing about being unable to HAVE powers, just being unable to USE them. You can have a power and not use it. That would still mean if they had a means of gaining sensitive psionics, they could learn Dreamdance Minor to gain bonuses in dream combat to use with their Dreamer talent.

As for cyber-knights, I believe they could still become them, just not necessarily have use of all the features. Stuff like paired weapons and combat acrobatics are still pretty great abilities.

Given there is a 'chi' aspect to the 'psi' sword (which can explicitly be learned by 'non-psychic' cyber-knights, whether RMB or SOT4, I think RUE also) I'd wonder if the 'chi' explanation could also give the anti-tech powers.

[Marcethus]

And sticking to the RAW means that when a race has no psionic potential they can not ever have psionic Abilities. Implants are the exception though in the case of the Nightbane their regeneration precludes them getting implants. And their no transformation by ANY means precludes symbiotes.

[Nightmask]

Well that's completely wrong, no ability means just that no ability. If you have a race that's blind (i.e. 'has no ability to see') then they can't see period, they can't go and learn to see because they are totally lacking the ability. Nightbane are incapable of possessing psychic abilities by any means, no effort to give one psychic abilities will work because they're incapable of having them. So no in your example a Nightbane couldn't become an Acolyte and gain psychic abilities because they're incapable of having them, just as one couldn't become a Cyber-Knight for the same reason, they're incapable of developing psychic powers.

You are inventing your own statements here. Sticking to the RAW:

88: Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic powers
119: Nightbane have no psionic potential whatsoever

Find others if you like, otherwise I'll stick to those two.

This says nothing about being unable to HAVE powers, just being unable to USE them. You can have a power and not use it. That would still mean if they had a means of gaining sensitive psionics, they could learn Dreamdance Minor to gain bonuses in dream combat to use with their Dreamer talent.

As for cyber-knights, I believe they could still become them, just not necessarily have use of all the features. Stuff like paired weapons and combat acrobatics are still pretty great abilities.

Given there is a 'chi' aspect to the 'psi' sword (which can explicitly be learned by 'non-psychic' cyber-knights, whether RMB or SOT4, I think RUE also) I'd wonder if the 'chi' explanation could also give the anti-tech powers.

Seriously, no, you're dead wrong and what you quote just shows how dead wrong you are. Your argument is fatally and hilariously flawed to the point of absurdity. If you have no potential for something then you cannot have that something, if you do not have the potential to see then you cannot see. Nightbane, even latent ones, cannot have psionic powers period, they cannot have them and by extension cannot use them because if you can't have something then you can't use it either, basic irrefutable logic. If one attempted Cyber-Knight training he'd be incapable of developing any of the psychic abilities involved including the Psi-Sword because they have NO ability to develop psychic powers at all.

[Marcethus]

Well that's completely wrong, no ability means just that no ability. If you have a race that's blind (i.e. 'has no ability to see') then they can't see period, they can't go and learn to see because they are totally lacking the ability. Nightbane are incapable of possessing psychic abilities by any means, no effort to give one psychic abilities will work because they're incapable of having them. So no in your example a Nightbane couldn't become an Acolyte and gain psychic abilities because they're incapable of having them, just as one couldn't become a Cyber-Knight for the same reason, they're incapable of developing psychic powers.

You are inventing your own statements here. Sticking to the RAW:

88: Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic powers
119: Nightbane have no psionic potential whatsoever

Find others if you like, otherwise I'll stick to those two.

This says nothing about being unable to HAVE powers, just being unable to USE them. You can have a power and not use it. That would still mean if they had a means of gaining sensitive psionics, they could learn Dreamdance Minor to gain bonuses in dream combat to use with their Dreamer talent.

As for cyber-knights, I believe they could still become them, just not necessarily have use of all the features. Stuff like paired weapons and combat acrobatics are still pretty great abilities.

Given there is a 'chi' aspect to the 'psi' sword (which can explicitly be learned by 'non-psychic' cyber-knights, whether RMB or SOT4, I think RUE also) I'd wonder if the 'chi' explanation could also give the anti-tech powers.

Seriously, no, you're dead wrong and what you quote just shows how dead wrong you are. Your argument is fatally and hilariously flawed to the point of absurdity. If you have no potential for something then you cannot have that something, if you do not have the potential to see then you cannot see. Nightbane, even latent ones, cannot have psionic powers period, they cannot have them and by extension cannot use them because if you can't have something then you can't use it either, basic irrefutable logic. If one attempted Cyber-Knight training he'd be incapable of developing any of the psychic abilities involved including the Psi-Sword because they have NO ability to develop psychic powers at all.

Exactly. The reason there exists a non-psychic option for the Cyber-Knight is for those that go into the training without any psychic powers before hand. Not for races that have no psionic potential.

[Axelmania]

And sticking to the RAW means that when a race has no psionic potential they can not ever have psionic Abilities. Implants are the exception though in the case of the Nightbane their regeneration precludes them getting implants. And their no transformation by ANY means precludes symbiotes.

Cyber-knights are an explicit exception to rules like these. For example on Psyscape page 32 "Any race that does not have psionics cannot roll on the Random Psionics Table nor select any RCC or OCC that has psionic powers."

This clearly shows that "Psionics: None" is in essence "no psionic potential" in practice in most situations.

The race breakdown on page 23 of Siege on Tolkeen 4 shows 6% of Cyber-Knights to be an exception to this rule (5% D'Norr Devilmen, page 12 of Sorcerer's Revenge, 1% Grackle Tooth, page 133 of Canada) because they are Psionics: None races and the Cyber-Knight is an OCC which gives psychic abilities: Meditation, the Psi-Sword and the Psi-Shield.

Exactly. The reason there exists a non-psychic option for the Cyber-Knight is for those that go into the training without any psychic powers before hand. Not for races that have no psionic potential.

Yet we have "Psionics: None" races able to become Cyber-Knights. ALL of them gain the psychic abilities, it does not mention any exceptions to this.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Psionics can not be taught. They can be awakened but not taught. If your race has no psionic potential then you can not ever become a class that has psionics.

Lack of psionic potential does not mean you can't gain it through some other means, ..snip

Lack of Psychic potential means that the the char/race can Never Ever have psionic powers.

This is part of what Lack of Psychic potential means in PB canon.

NB can't be changed so even an outside power can't change NB to be albe to have psi powers.

To say otherwise is a house rule.

[Glistam]

Psionics can not be taught. They can be awakened but not taught. If your race has no psionic potential then you can not ever become a class that has psionics.

Lack of psionic potential does not mean you can't gain it through some other means, ..snip

Lack of Psychic potential means that the the char/race can Never Ever have psionic powers.

Even if an outside power tried to impose them on the char.

This is part of what Lack of Psychic potential means in PB canon.

To say otherwise is a house rule.

This is an intriguing house rule as well. Unless it can be backed up with a book and page number...?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Logic thought: If an outside power changes an individual that can not have psi powers to have psi powers. Is that individual still the same or is it different? The individual is different, thus not the same.

With NB even the above "change from outside" is blocked by there not being able to be transformed. Thus, they can not be changed to be able to have psi powers.

All of this stupid argument is about something that can't happen within canon.

[Zer0 Kay]

It is unknown what the nature of a NB who has not had their becoming other then that it is implied that they live out their lives as humans.

NB can not "gain" Psi abilities. This is excluded from their nature. Much like the Seljuke (Rex-like aliens in the PW book) cannot have any sort of magic.

I would rule that unawakened NB would not be able to gain psi abilities what so ever.

I would rule that falling into a "vat of something horrible" would trigger the NB's becoming.

So THAT is the real reason for those mutations dealing with falling into radioactive waste while others die. Those that are "mutated" are latent nightspawn...

[drewkitty ~..~]

Nope. If they were mutated then they were not nightbane.

Please use logic supported by the text.

*yawns*…is tied of these….*falls over dead asleep*zzzz…..

[eliakon]

Logic thought: If an outside power changes an individual that can not have psi powers to have psi powers. Is that individual still the same or is it different? The individual is different, thus not the same.

With NB even the above "change from outside" is blocked by there not being able to be transformed. Thus, they can not be changed to be able to have psi powers.

All of this stupid argument is about something that can't happen within canon.

Only if the change is a transformation.
Since we know that at least some kinds of changes are canon legal to a known race that has the identical text ability (Atlantians can become T-men, juicers, crazies, can be the parents of Amazons, and apparently they have Mind Bleeders and Psi Stalkers...)
So "transformed" does not mean ALL changes, just some/most changes. At least in canon.

[drewkitty ~..~]

According to the frame of reference the NB text in the NBSG defines what NB are, that everything is in the genes, it takes a physical change to make a change.

[eliakon]

According to the frame of reference the NB text in the NBSG defines what NB are, that everything is in the genes, it takes a physical change to make a change.

if it is only genetic (a pretty big if, since the NBSG is pretty hazy on what a NB is) then you could simply make a genetic change...
...since genetic changes are allowed to Atlantians, then there is no reason to assume that they would not be allowed to Nightbane.

And of course this sides steps the point I made that not all changes are transformations. Which is important as the words are not synonyms.

All of which takes us full circle to "It depends on what your GM things would work best for their game" since there isn't a definitive canon statement on the subject...

[Zer0 Kay]

Nope. If they were mutated then they were not nightbane.

Please use logic supported by the text.

*yawns*…is tied of these….*falls over dead asleep*zzzz…..

Obviously "mutated" didn't mean actual mutation. How would a Latent Nightspawn falling into a chemical vat and coming out as something else and a human falling into a vat and coming out as something else not human not be viewed as similar to an outside observer. Heck even the NS. It isn't as if the night spawn just suddenly know what they are when they become. So a night spawn who reads too many comic books and watches a few too many Tromavision movies may think he mutated.

[eliakon]

Nope. If they were mutated then they were not nightbane.

Please use logic supported by the text.

*yawns*…is tied of these….*falls over dead asleep*zzzz…..

Obviously "mutated" didn't mean actual mutation. How would a Latent Nightspawn falling into a chemical vat and coming out as something else and a human falling into a vat and coming out as something else not human not be viewed as similar to an outside observer. Heck even the NS. It isn't as if the night spawn just suddenly know what they are when they become. So a night spawn who reads too many comic books and watches a few too many Tromavision movies may think he mutated.

Or not to many to be honest.
Since as I recall several of the canon Nightbane think that they are 'mutants' or 'space aliens' or what have you. I mean its not like they have a copy of the rule book. And considering how few have the Lore: Nightbane skill I am always amazed at the number of players who toss the term around casually...

[Marcethus]

According to the frame of reference the NB text in the NBSG defines what NB are, that everything is in the genes, it takes a physical change to make a change.

if it is only genetic (a pretty big if, since the NBSG is pretty hazy on what a NB is) then you could simply make a genetic change...
...since genetic changes are allowed to Atlantians, then there is no reason to assume that they would not be allowed to Nightbane.

And of course this sides steps the point I made that not all changes are transformations. Which is important as the words are not synonyms.

All of which takes us full circle to "It depends on what your GM things would work best for their game" since there isn't a definitive canon statement on the subject...

Actually there are definitive canon statement regarding both the Psionics and the Immunity to transformation.

Psionics:None. Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic Powers. Some Talents protect against telepathic intrusion however.

8. Immune to Transformation: The Nightbane cannot be transformed by any means, including but not limited to the following: Metamorphosis potions and spells, the transformation ritual, Vampire transformation, petrification, turn to mist, curses, wishes, or any form of magic or supernatural transformation, spell or enchantment.

Note that it say any means, That means nothing can transform them into anything. There is no way to grant Nightbane psionic powers by transforming them.

Atlanteans have the same wording. Though in the case of Undead Slayer there is a singular exception to the transformation due to the Number of Tattoos going above 6. But AFAIK that is the only exception the the True Atlanteans immunity to transformation.

Nightbane have no such exception.

Anything that tries to say the granting of psychic powers to a Nightbane isn't a transformation is a house rule.

And since when is a change not a Transformation?

[eliakon]

According to the frame of reference the NB text in the NBSG defines what NB are, that everything is in the genes, it takes a physical change to make a change.

if it is only genetic (a pretty big if, since the NBSG is pretty hazy on what a NB is) then you could simply make a genetic change...
...since genetic changes are allowed to Atlantians, then there is no reason to assume that they would not be allowed to Nightbane.

And of course this sides steps the point I made that not all changes are transformations. Which is important as the words are not synonyms.

All of which takes us full circle to "It depends on what your GM things would work best for their game" since there isn't a definitive canon statement on the subject...

Actually there are definitive canon statement regarding both the Psionics and the Immunity to transformation.

Psionics:None. Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic Powers. Some Talents protect against telepathic intrusion however.

8. Immune to Transformation: The Nightbane cannot be transformed by any means, including but not limited to the following: Metamorphosis potions and spells, the transformation ritual, Vampire transformation, petrification, turn to mist, curses, wishes, or any form of magic or supernatural transformation, spell or enchantment.

Note that it say any means, That means nothing can transform them into anything. There is no way to grant Nightbane psionic powers by transforming them.

Atlanteans have the same wording. Though in the case of Undead Slayer there is a singular exception to the transformation due to the Number of Tattoos going above 6. But AFAIK that is the only exception the the True Atlanteans immunity to transformation.

Nightbane have no such exception.

Anything that tries to say the granting of psychic powers to a Nightbane isn't a transformation is a house rule.

And since when is a change not a Transformation?

Because Atlanteans have the same wording. And Atlanteans can be subject to some changes after all.
Which means that it appears that there are some forms of change, which are not considered to be Transformations and/or that some transformations affect even things that are immune to transformation.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Nope. If they were mutated then they were not nightbane.

Please use logic supported by the text.

*yawns*…is tied of these….*falls over dead asleep*zzzz…..

Obviously "mutated" didn't mean actual mutation. How would a Latent Nightspawn falling into a chemical vat and coming out as something else and a human falling into a vat and coming out as something else not human not be viewed as similar to an outside observer. Heck even the NS. It isn't as if the night spawn just suddenly know what they are when they become. So a night spawn who reads too many comic books and watches a few too many Tromavision movies may think he mutated.

A latent NightBane would climb out after having their becoming due to the tramatic event, or their body would be fished out by the coroner would be the answer to your argument question.

Not talking about what an ignorant observer see in their own mind.

The problem is that no-one knows who is the "latent" NB and who is not till after the fact of their becoming.

------
With Nightspawn it is pretty easy to know who is an unawakened NS if you know their parents are NS. The problem is finding out who the parents are if they are all foundlings.

Race vs dormant genes.

[Marcethus]

According to the frame of reference the NB text in the NBSG defines what NB are, that everything is in the genes, it takes a physical change to make a change.

if it is only genetic (a pretty big if, since the NBSG is pretty hazy on what a NB is) then you could simply make a genetic change...
...since genetic changes are allowed to Atlantians, then there is no reason to assume that they would not be allowed to Nightbane.

And of course this sides steps the point I made that not all changes are transformations. Which is important as the words are not synonyms.

All of which takes us full circle to "It depends on what your GM things would work best for their game" since there isn't a definitive canon statement on the subject...

Actually there are definitive canon statement regarding both the Psionics and the Immunity to transformation.

Psionics:None. Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic Powers. Some Talents protect against telepathic intrusion however.

8. Immune to Transformation: The Nightbane cannot be transformed by any means, including but not limited to the following: Metamorphosis potions and spells, the transformation ritual, Vampire transformation, petrification, turn to mist, curses, wishes, or any form of magic or supernatural transformation, spell or enchantment.

Note that it say any means, That means nothing can transform them into anything. There is no way to grant Nightbane psionic powers by transforming them.

Atlanteans have the same wording. Though in the case of Undead Slayer there is a singular exception to the transformation due to the Number of Tattoos going above 6. But AFAIK that is the only exception the the True Atlanteans immunity to transformation.

Nightbane have no such exception.

Anything that tries to say the granting of psychic powers to a Nightbane isn't a transformation is a house rule.

And since when is a change not a Transformation?

Because Atlanteans have the same wording. And Atlanteans can be subject to some changes after all.
Which means that it appears that there are some forms of change, which are not considered to be Transformations and/or that some transformations affect even things that are immune to transformation.

The only exceptions for Atlanteans seems to be those involving Becoming an Undead Slayer or its variants. Which I specifically mention in my above post.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The current arc of the discussion was talking about nit picks, instead of the spirit of the text governing NB.

Here is how I would rule such an encounter with some "force" trying to impose psionics on a NB: It triggers their becoming. Much like how casting magic (see the NB mage text) causes the unawakened to have their initial becoming.
And depending on the nature of the "force" it might imposes cost free Psionic like talents to the NB.

Could NB get Magic Tattoos? I would have to rule, No. Due to that beings SN can't get them.
I can see GMs allowing NB have then on the facade, but not transferring to the Morphus.
I would rule that getting a Magic Tattoo would cause their becoming if their 'true self' was still sleeping. Much like how other trauma (mental or physical) causes the unawakened to have their initial becoming.

Could NB get normal tattoos? In their facade, Yes. They would not appear on their morphus if gotten after their 1st becoming. It fits the concept of NB.

[Marcethus]

Drew I would like to point out that it says in the book could trigger a 'latent' nightbane's becoming not that it will trigger it. They even mention that one was a young mage before his becoming in the Nightlands Book.

[eliakon]

According to the frame of reference the NB text in the NBSG defines what NB are, that everything is in the genes, it takes a physical change to make a change.

if it is only genetic (a pretty big if, since the NBSG is pretty hazy on what a NB is) then you could simply make a genetic change...
...since genetic changes are allowed to Atlantians, then there is no reason to assume that they would not be allowed to Nightbane.

And of course this sides steps the point I made that not all changes are transformations. Which is important as the words are not synonyms.

All of which takes us full circle to "It depends on what your GM things would work best for their game" since there isn't a definitive canon statement on the subject...

Actually there are definitive canon statement regarding both the Psionics and the Immunity to transformation.

Psionics:None. Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic Powers. Some Talents protect against telepathic intrusion however.

8. Immune to Transformation: The Nightbane cannot be transformed by any means, including but not limited to the following: Metamorphosis potions and spells, the transformation ritual, Vampire transformation, petrification, turn to mist, curses, wishes, or any form of magic or supernatural transformation, spell or enchantment.

Note that it say any means, That means nothing can transform them into anything. There is no way to grant Nightbane psionic powers by transforming them.

Atlanteans have the same wording. Though in the case of Undead Slayer there is a singular exception to the transformation due to the Number of Tattoos going above 6. But AFAIK that is the only exception the the True Atlanteans immunity to transformation.

Nightbane have no such exception.

Anything that tries to say the granting of psychic powers to a Nightbane isn't a transformation is a house rule.

And since when is a change not a Transformation?

Because Atlanteans have the same wording. And Atlanteans can be subject to some changes after all.
Which means that it appears that there are some forms of change, which are not considered to be Transformations and/or that some transformations affect even things that are immune to transformation.

The only exceptions for Atlanteans seems to be those involving Becoming an Undead Slayer or its variants. Which I specifically mention in my above post.

That is not the only exception though.
First of, while it is one exception, the simple fact that it is an exception that occurs in the same book and source as the original 'immunity' casts doubt on the universal blanket status of the immunity... since the immunity does not mention that it has only one exemption.
Second off, we know that Atlantians can become Juicers and Warlock Marines, both of which involve limited 'changes' (Especially since depending on how one interprets the text they may be eligible for all juicer variants.. including Mega Juicer)
Third off as mentioned Atlantians have at least one known genetic mutation (Mind Bleeder) and possibly Psi-Stalkers.
Then there is the unusual case of the Amazonian/True-Atlantian cross breed which may, or may not be an issue depending on how the individual interprets the Atlantian 'immunity' to operate.

ANYWAY you slice it though, we know that "immune to all transformations" does not mean all transformations whatsoever.

[Marcethus]

Firstly where does it say that Atlanteans can be Juicers? Second, even if they can be juicer's it's chemicals that induce the body not a transformation. I don't have easy access to my Phase World Sourcebook, so I can't say about Atlanteans being able to be Warlock Marines.

The only exception that I know of is the MDC Transformation that occurs when a True Atlantean becomes an Undead Slayer or one of the few variants that a TA can be, ie Undead Slayer, Sunaj Assassin, or Monster Shaper or whatever the name of the Clan Skellian one is.

The thing about the Mind Bleeder is that Atlantis was written two books before Africa was written, and KS may not have firmed up the idea that Mind Bleeder's were a genetic mutation. While I will acknowledge that yes they are listed as an available class for TAs. It's a psionic mutation which may or may not be a transformation.

As for the Amazon/True Atlantean breeding. That is not a Transformation as no True Atlantean would be an Amazon. All male children of an Amazon is the same as the father and all female children are Amazon's not True Atlantean.

And the wording on it is Immune to Transformation by Any means, including but not limted to:

[drewkitty ~..~]

Drew I would like to point out that it says in the book could trigger a 'latent' nightbane's becoming not that it will trigger it. They even mention that one was a young mage before his becoming in the Nightlands Book.

Would you please state page and book?

[eliakon]

Drew I would like to point out that it says in the book could trigger a 'latent' nightbane's becoming not that it will trigger it. They even mention that one was a young mage before his becoming in the Nightlands Book.

Would you please state page and book?

Nightlands page 88

Can you provide a page/source for the source that says that magic triggers a becoming? I can't find it myself with a quick search and want to read it myself.

[eliakon]

Firstly where does it say that Atlanteans can be Juicers? Second

Juicer Uprisings page 16

, even if they can be juicer's it's chemicals that induce the body not a transformation.

The issue there is that 1) we are getting into the fine line between change and transformation and 2) mega-juicers

I don't have easy access to my Phase World Sourcebook, so I can't say about Atlanteans being able to be Warlock Marines.

when you do get it, page 33 talks about the racial break down, and mentions True Atlantians specifically.

The only exception that I know of is the MDC Transformation that occurs when a True Atlantean becomes an Undead Slayer or one of the few variants that a TA can be, ie Undead Slayer, Sunaj Assassin, or Monster Shaper or whatever the name of the Clan Skellian one is.

Which means that we already know of at least one exception that was not mentioned in the immunity. And where there is one unmentioned exception there can be more. After all there is no canon statement that I am aware of anywhere that says anything to the effect of "Oh, the Tattoo Transfromation... yeah, its an exception to the Atlantian Immunity... but it is the only one so don't worry about it."

The thing about the Mind Bleeder is that Atlantis was written two books before Africa was written, and KS may not have firmed up the idea that Mind Bleeder's were a genetic mutation. While I will acknowledge that yes they are listed as an available class for TAs. It's a psionic mutation which may or may not be a transformation.

Which is why I pointed it out. Its very important. VERY important.
ESPECIALLY if, as Drew is claiming, that the Nightbane is now a genetic condition. I mean lets see. Atlantians are genetic... but have a genetic mutation. Nightbanes are now supposedly genetic... can they to have genetic mutations?

As for the Amazon/True Atlantean breeding. That is not a Transformation as no True Atlantean would be an Amazon. All male children of an Amazon is the same as the father and all female children are Amazon's not True Atlantean.

I brought it up due to a long running thread before that was questioning just when a TA immunity kicks in, and how extensive it was. Basically... was TA germ plasm immune...

And the wording on it is Immune to Transformation by Any means, including but not limted to:

Which we know is false already because we can point to at least one exception. And where there is one exception there is no reason to assume that there can not be others.

[Nightmask]

And the wording on it is Immune to Transformation by Any means, including but not limted to:

Which we know is false already because we can point to at least one exception. And where there is one exception there is no reason to assume that there can not be others.

Except it's not false since for one an exception doesn't make the 'any' portion no longer valid and for another just because True Atlanteans have an exception in their immunity to transformations doesn't mean Nightbane, latent or active, do. Even if they had an exception that doesn't mean that they can get psionics even though they're canonically stated as being incapable of possessing them. Considering the mystic nightbane can't have any even though psychic powers are usually part of the class we have evidence right there that they can't develop them even as part of a class that they're a good portion of.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...Can you provide a page/source for the source that says that magic triggers a becoming? …snip

This is what I was asking about myself. Since Marcethus sounded like he knew where this was.



Where did I get the idea? nope was not my idea. years ago,I was talking about a NS Mystic Study of mine and someone was arguing that all NS/NB had to be the NB/NS mage class due to that when they cast their 1st spell it triggers their becoming and puts the char into that class. For some reason the memory catalog is saying was said by someone named eliakon….but I suspect it was really NightMask that actually said it. Yes, I know it is a bit late for following it up, but this has not come up since then.

Regardless of this getting a magic tattoo would be a stressful event that would cause an un-awakened NB (or NS) to have their 1st becoming.