Pyramids and the extra ley-line PPE limitation.

[Jorick]

I'd be surprised if this question hasn't been brought up before, but I can't find it.

We know that pyramids on a nexus or ley-line prevent many of the benefits to mages of being on a ley-line/nexus. The rules seem to suggest that the entire nexus, and maybe even the entire ley-line, no longer give the extra PPE benefits.

However, it seems very unlikely to me that the intention was to prevent every foot of a large ley-line from providing the benefit. For instance, if the ley-line that stretches from Easter Island to Mexico had an effective pyramid on it (does it?) then everyone coming upon/using this otherwise very impressive magical source would know something's up (as well as being grossly disappointed).

A nexus could be some 4 square miles (if two very large ley-lines intersected). Great place to put a pyramid. The pyramid is of course much smaller than that, and is somewhere in this large area. Is every corner of the nexus limited? That makes a little more sense to me than an entire ley-line, but...

A city could fit in that nexus (even an average sized nexus, and its ley-lines, could house a sizable city). Are TW devices that require a ley-line (wingboards or whatever) unable to function in such a city? Is the superfluous PPE constrained to that extent? Is everyone living in the city forced to rely on PPE funneled from the pyramid to their homes/businesses/ritual circles? (That makes a lot of sense to me, given the purpose of pyramids, but range is still a question).

How do Stone Masters take advantage of the pyramid's power to help build cities if even when on a pyramid on a nexus their casting range isn't city-wide (and they must stand on the pyramid to get any bonus)?

There's mention of pyramids being placed every 5 miles to be effective. Is 5 miles (each way?) the range of control?

How do you all deal with this, if ever?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Pyramids every 5 miles is the max you can cram on a ley line and have them all powered. This is mostly redunancy and more places to teleport between, like bus stops. One pyramid indeed controls the entire line, even if hundreds of miles

[kaid]

Pyramids every 5 miles is the max you can cram on a ley line and have them all powered. This is mostly redunancy and more places to teleport between, like bus stops. One pyramid indeed controls the entire line, even if hundreds of miles

Yup pretty much this. Think of pyramids as caps on oil wells. Once capped the source of the resource is at that point in theory if you could cap every nexus on the planet you could pretty much end or close to it random rifts/leyline storms.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Pretty much, but that's also a reason to build one every 5 miles--so if one goes down the ley line isn't set out of control.

And the Pyramid writeup is, now that i've double checked, pretty unabigus. it says the only way to free a ley line from the Pyramids control is to destroy the pyramid.

as for how they use it to power a city: Uh, easy, they just hook up the Pyramid to other systems with TW. The Final Seige book goes into some detail about how tolkeens pyramids were used to power various infastructure via TW connectors.

[Axelmania]

mostly redunancy and more places to teleport

More MDC fortresses too, I don't know if there's a size cap on pyramids but it'd be more room to protect people, live inside, go into stasis to live longer, etc.

Stone Masters can also use their powers best while standing on these so more pyramids means more places to build a community around. More places for mages to stand on to access the ley line too.

[Shark_Force]

tolkeen's pyramids weren't stone magic pyramids if i'm not mistaken. in fact, they had to build a special TW machine to protect them from ley line storms.

as i've said before, pyramids are a stupid idea for a magic community. they're only useful if you only have a tiny handful of magic users that you don't expect to go anywhere (or, oddly enough, if you don't have or want any magic users at all, they're great for that too). they put a major limitation on your ability to draw energy from a ley line, the amount they can store is low, and stone magic in general is pretty awful in many ways, primarily in the fact that apart from making pyramids most of what it does can be done by other types of magic *without* destroying thousands of credits worth of gems.

the whole danged thing needs to be redesigned pretty much. the more magical a society becomes, the less use it has for pyramids.

[Marcethus]

Really all they need to do is Update the Pyramids to fit with the new information presented in RUE.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Really all they need to do is Update the Pyramids to fit with the new information presented in RUE.

Which new information?

[kaid]

Pretty much, but that's also a reason to build one every 5 miles--so if one goes down the ley line isn't set out of control.

And the Pyramid writeup is, now that i've double checked, pretty unabigus. it says the only way to free a ley line from the Pyramids control is to destroy the pyramid.

as for how they use it to power a city: Uh, easy, they just hook up the Pyramid to other systems with TW. The Final Seige book goes into some detail about how tolkeens pyramids were used to power various infastructure via TW connectors.

I won't spoil anything but more clear answers appear to be coming shortly. One thing as a clarification though apparently is a pyramid basically drains all the ley line energy of the nexus or ley lines for five miles on either side of it. So in theory one pyramid every 10 miles would do it although five miles gives you redundancy.

[kaid]

Really all they need to do is Update the Pyramids to fit with the new information presented in RUE.

Non spoilery but this appears to be in the works with some much more detail on the workings and types of pyramids.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Pretty much, but that's also a reason to build one every 5 miles--so if one goes down the ley line isn't set out of control.

And the Pyramid writeup is, now that i've double checked, pretty unabigus. it says the only way to free a ley line from the Pyramids control is to destroy the pyramid.

as for how they use it to power a city: Uh, easy, they just hook up the Pyramid to other systems with TW. The Final Seige book goes into some detail about how tolkeens pyramids were used to power various infastructure via TW connectors.

I won't spoil anything but more clear answers appear to be coming shortly. One thing as a clarification though apparently is a pyramid basically drains all the ley line energy of the nexus or ley lines for five miles on either side of it. So in theory one pyramid every 10 miles would do it although five miles gives you redundancy.

Umm...spoil what? Theres no unclarity as it stands the writeup is pretty clear as it is. Even the OP didn't misunderstand therule he just didn't like it

[kaid]

Pretty much, but that's also a reason to build one every 5 miles--so if one goes down the ley line isn't set out of control.

And the Pyramid writeup is, now that i've double checked, pretty unabigus. it says the only way to free a ley line from the Pyramids control is to destroy the pyramid.

as for how they use it to power a city: Uh, easy, they just hook up the Pyramid to other systems with TW. The Final Seige book goes into some detail about how tolkeens pyramids were used to power various infastructure via TW connectors.

I won't spoil anything but more clear answers appear to be coming shortly. One thing as a clarification though apparently is a pyramid basically drains all the ley line energy of the nexus or ley lines for five miles on either side of it. So in theory one pyramid every 10 miles would do it although five miles gives you redundancy.

Umm...spoil what? Theres no unclarity as it stands the writeup is pretty clear as it is. Even the OP didn't misunderstand therule he just didn't like it

The secrets of atlantis book appears to have quite a bit of info on various types of pyramids and more detail on how they work and what you can use them for.

[Jorick]

The secrets of atlantis book appears to have quite a bit of info on various types of pyramids and more detail on how they work and what you can use them for.

In its current form there is no further info about these matters.


Nekira is correct that I don't like the rule. I'm not sure it's working as intended, or is complete, given various other facts.


Stone masters cannot create a city around a pyramid with the help of a pyramid any better than they could with a nexus. Quite the opposite in fact, given range limitations.

Do the pyramids in Mexico negate the Mexican ley lines? That's a lot of ley line to control, with no mention that they are limited in any way.

Techno-wizard societies unable to use many basic techno-wizard devices on ley lines seems incorrect. In this case, however, the rule is very ambiguous. Do the vehicles that rely on lines use extra energy that is controlled by pyramids?

A pyramid every 5 miles suggests that there is superfluous energy that can be collected every 5 miles. If a line is limited by one pyramid, why can multiple pyramids function fully?

[Library Ogre]

A pyramid every 5 miles suggests that there is superfluous energy that can be collected every 5 miles. If a line is limited by one pyramid, why can multiple pyramids function fully?

Just because the energy is locked down doesn't mean that it can't be used at other locations.



Let's say you have line CQ. C*------------------------*Q
Q is a nexus; it's also connected to points T and Z, forming lines QT and QZ. C is not a nexus. Between C and Q are points DEFGHIJKLMNO and P. Each of those points is 5 miles apart.

Now, if Clan Fishwrap puts a pyramid at any point from C to P, inclusive, and there is no pyramid at Q, Clan Fishwrap can control the entirety of line CQ, including starving or powering any subsequent pyramids on line CP. If a pyramid is placed at Q, however, even if it's placed after the pyramid on line CQ, it can draw on the power of lines QT and QZ to overpower any control of the pyramid on line CQ.

Thus, if you can, you want to set up a pyramid on a nexus first, because it will rule all the connected lines. If you for some reason CAN'T, but your enemy likewise can't set up on Q, then a pyramid on the line gives you some power and control, even if you're not quite as powerful as you might otherwise be. Controlling Q becomes the real battle, since taking Q will enable you to disable their pyramids on CQ, QT, and QZ.

[kaid]

The secrets of atlantis book appears to have quite a bit of info on various types of pyramids and more detail on how they work and what you can use them for.

In its current form there is no further info about these matters.


Nekira is correct that I don't like the rule. I'm not sure it's working as intended, or is complete, given various other facts.


Stone masters cannot create a city around a pyramid with the help of a pyramid any better than they could with a nexus. Quite the opposite in fact, given range limitations.

Do the pyramids in Mexico negate the Mexican ley lines? That's a lot of ley line to control, with no mention that they are limited in any way.

Techno-wizard societies unable to use many basic techno-wizard devices on ley lines seems incorrect. In this case, however, the rule is very ambiguous. Do the vehicles that rely on lines use extra energy that is controlled by pyramids?

A pyramid every 5 miles suggests that there is superfluous energy that can be collected every 5 miles. If a line is limited by one pyramid, why can multiple pyramids function fully?

The how multiple pyramids can function is sort of covered in more detail in the raw secrets of atlantis. Mild spoiler there are power pyramids which are specifically a pyramid that can broad cast its power for powering up TW devices/settlements and other pyramids.

[eliakon]

I would also bring up the fact that Atlantis is full of cities on pyramids... and they explicitly use ley-line vehicles as a common means of transportation. Arnzo does the same. The pyramid obviously can't be interfering...

[Blue_Lion]

I would also bring up the fact that Atlantis is full of cities on pyramids... and they explicitly use ley-line vehicles as a common means of transportation. Arnzo does the same. The pyramid obviously can't be interfering...

Tolkeen had pyramids and ley line public transport.

[Jorick]

Just because the energy is locked down doesn't mean that it can't be used at other locations.



Let's say you have line CQ. C*------------------------*Q
Q is a nexus; it's also connected to points T and Z, forming lines QT and QZ. C is not a nexus. Between C and Q are points DEFGHIJKLMNO and P. Each of those points is 5 miles apart.

Now, if Clan Fishwrap puts a pyramid at any point from C to P, inclusive, and there is no pyramid at Q, Clan Fishwrap can control the entirety of line CQ, including starving or powering any subsequent pyramids on line CP. If a pyramid is placed at Q, however, even if it's placed after the pyramid on line CQ, it can draw on the power of lines QT and QZ to overpower any control of the pyramid on line CQ.

Thus, if you can, you want to set up a pyramid on a nexus first, because it will rule all the connected lines. If you for some reason CAN'T, but your enemy likewise can't set up on Q, then a pyramid on the line gives you some power and control, even if you're not quite as powerful as you might otherwise be. Controlling Q becomes the real battle, since taking Q will enable you to disable their pyramids on CQ, QT, and QZ.

First of all, I love this, cause it's imaginative, and it fuels the imagination. Tactical ley line use is fun to think about regardless of the rules, so thank you for getting me to think about it.


I'm still stuck with my specific issues though. One cannot make a pyramid useful at less than 5 miles. This seems like an arbitrary limit IF a pyramid can control/limit an entire line.

For instance, in your example, P can be within 5 miles of Q, and your scenario would still work. 5 miles doesn't matter at all. Why is 5 miles a thing?

The power pyramids in the raw preview are not helpful in these regards. Perhaps they will be so when official, but for now, Kaid and others, please believe I have read the preview, and I'm still struggling with the stone masters building cities, and pyramids limiting lines that stretch half way around the world (and therefore must effect the abilities of others who have access to the line, but never seem to, except in possibly overbroad notes about pyramids).

[Jorick]

I would also bring up the fact that Atlantis is full of cities on pyramids... and they explicitly use ley-line vehicles as a common means of transportation. Arnzo does the same. The pyramid obviously can't be interfering...

Tolkeen had pyramids and ley line public transport.

And what about Center on Phase World?

Everyone who's really good at controlling magic energies really sucks at doing what Pyramids, a fairly well known technology in the Megaverse, supposedly do as a most basic feature.

More to the point, no Palladium author ever, including Kevin, actually seems to imagine that pyramids shut down most of the natural characteristics of ley lines. One can control/prevent a storm. Perhaps one can also control use of excess energy. But a blanket "no extra PPE or magic enhancement" seems to be more than what is generally imagined by the creators.

[Shark_Force]

fwiw, as far as literally building cities, the stone master doesn't need a pyramid for that. they can lift extremely heavy stones easily, and shape it easily, without having any pyramid at all.

though again, the concept of magical societies actually wanting pyramids around instead of wanting them destroyed for being a public nuisance is completely baffling considering how they are supposed to work.

[Jorick]

fwiw, as far as literally building cities, the stone master doesn't need a pyramid for that. they can lift extremely heavy stones easily, and shape it easily, without having any pyramid at all.

though again, the concept of magical societies actually wanting pyramids around instead of wanting them destroyed for being a public nuisance is completely baffling considering how they are supposed to work.

Totally agree. What is described in the texts is that a stone master's ability to build cities in enhanced by the pyramid. Build a pyramid first, then a city around it. Though conceptually it seems obvious, the rules limiting ley energies and the range restrictions on stone masters, even while standing on a pyramid, make this description of events untenable.

A stone master can't reach the 2.5 mile midpoint between two functioning pyramids. All the stone master did was make the entire area, beyond her marginally increased pyramid range, as if no line existed at all.

[eliakon]

The reason I can't fathom why anyone would want a Pyramid is that it is an uncloseable invasion beachhead. Any other Pyramid in the Megaverse can open a rift to it, almost with out error. meaning that anyone can use your pyramid to invade your city...

[Axelmania]

Stone masters cannot create a city around a pyramid with the help of a pyramid any better than they could with a nexus. Quite the opposite in fact, given range limitations.

Atlantis 104
left column (third paragraph, 2nd after line break, of 'Pyramid Technology) "The True Atlanteans and the Splugorth use stone pyramids as a means to erect entire cities using magic."

right column (under 6: Increases the power of stone magic) "Traditionally the increased power was used by True Atlanteans for constructing other buildings and entire cities around the pyramid"

A nexus-based pyramid quadruples the duration, range, area, weight, damage and power. A line-based only triples.

You might be thinking of the paltry 30 feet per level for the 5th power 'levitation and telekinesis of stone', the 4th 'move stone mentally' thing is probably the key here: 1000 feet becomes 4000 feet at a nexus.

I don't think a non-pyramided nexus would benefit Stone Master powers, I think you need a pyramid to enhance them. But if it did enhance them, then the pyramid-enhancement would be a separate aspect and they would stack together.

8000 feet across is a decent enough small city. Given that Huge pyramids are "1100 feet or taller" there isn't any apparent size cap on a pyramid so that could really expand how far from the centre of a nexus you can stand.

The reason I can't fathom why anyone would want a Pyramid is that it is an uncloseable invasion beachhead. Any other Pyramid in the Megaverse can open a rift to it, almost with out error. meaning that anyone can use your pyramid to invade your city...

Ability 12 only mentions nexus-pyramids being connected on a dimensional scale, so this is a risk you incur building on a nexus but not on a ley line. If you want to build a nexus pyramid then you'd probably want other securities like a Diabolist warding the entrance up, or a bunch of golems/zombies ready to destroy anyone who comes in without prior arrangement.

The rifts can only be opened at the "very top" so you only need to guard the outside or the top floor. 500 PPE a shot for 1 melee/level is pretty expensive, it's also not clear how big a rift you can make this way. If they appear indoors you could contain them in a very small room (nothing mandating the top floor be connected to bottom ones) and if they appear outdoors you can smack them with Summon Fog + Ley Line Storm, hide in your MDC bunker.

Another condition to this is "If the characters knows the location". So you can't just randomly zip around to unknown nexus pyramids, you actually have to know that there is a nexus in that specific point in that dimension and that there is a pyramid built on that nexus.

There is a 60-second scanning process "experienced" stone masters can use to find pyramids connected even to dimensions they know nothing about (and have never been to) but it's unclear what level stone master you have to be for that.

Another defense I thought of: if someone opens a rift to your pyramid, you can do the same (make a rift RIGHT in front of their rift) and send them to some other pyramid for 500 PPE or some dangerous place for 1000 PPE.

That way to get in, they'd need to close your rift first, and the usual way of doing that requires permanent PPE expenditure.

Nexus pyramids all have at least 500 so bouncing to another nexus pyramid is always viable. On average they have 1750 which gives enough to make a rift to a non-pyramid place (maybe to the center of a star) so minions sent through the portal will be marching to their doom.

Unlike a 'create dimensional portal' spell this can also presumably be done instantly since it's an OCC power.

[Jerell]

You can have lots of Pyramids near each other, even in one city. Standard Lemurian cities Have one Master Pyramid (Being the primary point of control and distribution of energy) and 16 other pyramids, all in a network. That allows all of them to "tap into the pyramid powers which are normally associated with stone pyramids on a ley line or nexus" (Lemuria 23).

Note anyone using magic or dimensional power to enter Lemurian cities, or one of their pyramids, are magically redirected to a heavily guarded sealed off location know as the "Central Reception Area." So that's definitely an upgrade.

I seem to recall, a somewhat similar process on phase world, used to redirect dimensional/magic travelers, though I'd have to look at dimensional outbreak again to be sure.

[Marcethus]

Really all they need to do is Update the Pyramids to fit with the new information presented in RUE.

Which new information?

The Updated Numbers of what PPE can be drawn from a ley line and nexus. This new information needs to be incorporated into the Numbers given for Pyramids so that the amount of PPE drawn from a Pyramid by those that can use them is updated.

[SereneTsunami]

From reading the books it seems clear that not all Line and Nexus are created equally. Do you think the PPE storage numbers given are the limit of the pyramids described or are for an average line/nexus?

My thought on the reasons for a pyramid are first and foremost to control the damaging and unpredictable nature of a nexus. It ends the threat of storms, and the other powers are simply a bonus. It like building a dam on a river that floods out every spring and knocks down the town. The dam has many other uses past flood control, but that is its primary function.

I think it's also important to consider the different levels of pyramid expertise. Lemurians have been practicing Stone Magic for 1000's of years uninterrupted, so have the Splurgoth, and Atlantean Clans like Skellion. Perhaps the new Book will answer some of these questions.

[kaid]

I would also bring up the fact that Atlantis is full of cities on pyramids... and they explicitly use ley-line vehicles as a common means of transportation. Arnzo does the same. The pyramid obviously can't be interfering...

Tolkeen had pyramids and ley line public transport.

And what about Center on Phase World?

Everyone who's really good at controlling magic energies really sucks at doing what Pyramids, a fairly well known technology in the Megaverse, supposedly do as a most basic feature.

More to the point, no Palladium author ever, including Kevin, actually seems to imagine that pyramids shut down most of the natural characteristics of ley lines. One can control/prevent a storm. Perhaps one can also control use of excess energy. But a blanket "no extra PPE or magic enhancement" seems to be more than what is generally imagined by the creators.

In rereading the info this seems a bit more in line with what I am seeing. It does not say so much that it shuts down the ley lines just that they no longer give any of the normal bonuses for being on them no extra ppe no extra bonuses to psi/magic abilities. The question would be can you use ley line like abilities like phase/teleportation/obersvation ball or things like ley line vehicles on them. If you look at atlantis and splynn it seems like the answer is yes you can.

Although with the power pyramids and their ability to broadcast PPE to TW engines it is possible that is what we are seeing not true ley line flyer type things but using some kind of TW engine to power levitation/flight spells.

I kinda hope this discussion gets looked at for when they finalize the new atlantis book to maybe clarify this one way or the other.

[Library Ogre]

I'm still stuck with my specific issues though. One cannot make a pyramid useful at less than 5 miles. This seems like an arbitrary limit IF a pyramid can control/limit an entire line.

For instance, in your example, P can be within 5 miles of Q, and your scenario would still work. 5 miles doesn't matter at all. Why is 5 miles a thing?

The power pyramids in the raw preview are not helpful in these regards. Perhaps they will be so when official, but for now, Kaid and others, please believe I have read the preview, and I'm still struggling with the stone masters building cities, and pyramids limiting lines that stretch half way around the world (and therefore must effect the abilities of others who have access to the line, but never seem to, except in possibly overbroad notes about pyramids).

Eh, why is there a limit of 90' range for a fireball? It seems like it could be a lot more... why 5 miles?

My bet is that it IS somewhat arbitrary, from a game design standpoint. 5 miles was picked because 5 miles seems like a reasonable amount... something walkable, especially if you move with superhuman speed. Something shootable, if you've got missiles. Heck, maybe it's a mile per side.

As for pyramids limiting ley lines, remember that "can" is not necessarily "do"... a pyramid operator might choose to let the line run at normal power, just siphoning off enough for his purposes, but maintaining the ability to shut off the line.

Or, alternatively, play with the tactics. Make it so they can control with 5 miles of themselves... but one on a nexus can control the entire line up to an "endpoint pyramid". So, stick a pyramid on a nexus, you control the nexus. Stick a second pyramid down at C, and you can control the entire line. Set a pyramid at every point between C and Q, and you can control the line incrementally, shutting it off so long as you control your network. Lose control of Q? You still control C-P.

[Jorick]

I'm still stuck with my specific issues though. One cannot make a pyramid useful at less than 5 miles. This seems like an arbitrary limit IF a pyramid can control/limit an entire line.

For instance, in your example, P can be within 5 miles of Q, and your scenario would still work. 5 miles doesn't matter at all. Why is 5 miles a thing?

The power pyramids in the raw preview are not helpful in these regards. Perhaps they will be so when official, but for now, Kaid and others, please believe I have read the preview, and I'm still struggling with the stone masters building cities, and pyramids limiting lines that stretch half way around the world (and therefore must effect the abilities of others who have access to the line, but never seem to, except in possibly overbroad notes about pyramids).

Eh, why is there a limit of 90' range for a fireball? It seems like it could be a lot more... why 5 miles?

My bet is that it IS somewhat arbitrary, from a game design standpoint. 5 miles was picked because 5 miles seems like a reasonable amount... something walkable, especially if you move with superhuman speed. Something shootable, if you've got missiles. Heck, maybe it's a mile per side.

As for pyramids limiting ley lines, remember that "can" is not necessarily "do"... a pyramid operator might choose to let the line run at normal power, just siphoning off enough for his purposes, but maintaining the ability to shut off the line.

Or, alternatively, play with the tactics. Make it so they can control with 5 miles of themselves... but one on a nexus can control the entire line up to an "endpoint pyramid". So, stick a pyramid on a nexus, you control the nexus. Stick a second pyramid down at C, and you can control the entire line. Set a pyramid at every point between C and Q, and you can control the line incrementally, shutting it off so long as you control your network. Lose control of Q? You still control C-P.

I'm asking the question not because I have an issue with the number or its arbitrariness, but because there is a number at all.

If a ley line produces no extra PPE outside the pyramid which controls it, how can any other pyramid exist at full power?

If any other pyramid can exist, why a range of 5 miles? Why not any available inch on the ley line?

The fact that there is a range, suggests that range is relevant. That is all I mean to point out.


Edit: if a pyramid can, but does not necessarily, control a ley line, this is not clear in the rules. Just the opposite in fact. The rules explicitly state that they do (limit ppe etc.).

"Can" is a valid interpretation or workaround to the limitation. I'm not a rule hound. But I'm also not sure the rules as written actually reflect the intention of the authors.

[Shark_Force]

From reading the books it seems clear that not all Line and Nexus are created equally. Do you think the PPE storage numbers given are the limit of the pyramids described or are for an average line/nexus?

My thought on the reasons for a pyramid are first and foremost to control the damaging and unpredictable nature of a nexus. It ends the threat of storms, and the other powers are simply a bonus. It like building a dam on a river that floods out every spring and knocks down the town. The dam has many other uses past flood control, but that is its primary function.

I think it's also important to consider the different levels of pyramid expertise. Lemurians have been practicing Stone Magic for 1000's of years uninterrupted, so have the Splurgoth, and Atlantean Clans like Skellion. Perhaps the new Book will answer some of these questions.

the problem is that you're not just building a dam that prevents the floods and can also have the extra benefits. these particular dams prevent the floods (good) but massively reduce all the other benefits of being on the river in the first place (not so good). as a result of the dam being there, you can only have one slightly larger water wheel instead of hundreds or thousands of almost as good smaller water wheels. you are getting far less total power, and you can only have that power in one specific place instead of many other locations.

seems to me that if you're so desperate to avoid the floods, you'd be better off building further away and just go to the river only when you need the (substantial) benefits of the river. or build a better dam (which it seems is fairly common to do, so it can't be that hard).

[Nightmask]

From reading the books it seems clear that not all Line and Nexus are created equally. Do you think the PPE storage numbers given are the limit of the pyramids described or are for an average line/nexus?

My thought on the reasons for a pyramid are first and foremost to control the damaging and unpredictable nature of a nexus. It ends the threat of storms, and the other powers are simply a bonus. It like building a dam on a river that floods out every spring and knocks down the town. The dam has many other uses past flood control, but that is its primary function.

I think it's also important to consider the different levels of pyramid expertise. Lemurians have been practicing Stone Magic for 1000's of years uninterrupted, so have the Splurgoth, and Atlantean Clans like Skellion. Perhaps the new Book will answer some of these questions.

the problem is that you're not just building a dam that prevents the floods and can also have the extra benefits. these particular dams prevent the floods (good) but massively reduce all the other benefits of being on the river in the first place (not so good). as a result of the dam being there, you can only have one slightly larger water wheel instead of hundreds or thousands of almost as good smaller water wheels. you are getting far less total power, and you can only have that power in one specific place instead of many other locations.

seems to me that if you're so desperate to avoid the floods, you'd be better off building further away and just go to the river only when you need the (substantial) benefits of the river. or build a better dam (which it seems is fairly common to do, so it can't be that hard).

Well no analogy is perfect, so while it's possible to consider the pyramid to be like a dam on a river it's obviously not going to be a perfect fit.

[SereneTsunami]

From reading the books it seems clear that not all Line and Nexus are created equally. Do you think the PPE storage numbers given are the limit of the pyramids described or are for an average line/nexus?

My thought on the reasons for a pyramid are first and foremost to control the damaging and unpredictable nature of a nexus. It ends the threat of storms, and the other powers are simply a bonus. It like building a dam on a river that floods out every spring and knocks down the town. The dam has many other uses past flood control, but that is its primary function.

I think it's also important to consider the different levels of pyramid expertise. Lemurians have been practicing Stone Magic for 1000's of years uninterrupted, so have the Splurgoth, and Atlantean Clans like Skellion. Perhaps the new Book will answer some of these questions.

the problem is that you're not just building a dam that prevents the floods and can also have the extra benefits. these particular dams prevent the floods (good) but massively reduce all the other benefits of being on the river in the first place (not so good). as a result of the dam being there, you can only have one slightly larger water wheel instead of hundreds or thousands of almost as good smaller water wheels. you are getting far less total power, and you can only have that power in one specific place instead of many other locations.



I think that when the text in WB#2 says that normal ley line energy and bonuses arn't available it means that the the caster must be in or on the pyramid. The Pyramid is just a tool to manage the energy. It seems like you are saying the Pyramid kills all ley line energy and I think it reads as harnessing it to a specific place, the Pyramid. You say the other powers of a pyramid are not worth it if you lose ambient PPE. I respectfully disagree, a casual read of the of the powers of a pyramid are the basis for a magically civilization. I would trade random deamons popping out of thin air at any moment for making it rain anytime i wanted, for example.

seems to me that if you're so desperate to avoid the floods, you'd be better off building further away and just go to the river only when you need the (substantial) benefits of the river. or build a better dam (which it seems is fairly common to do, so it can't be that hard).

[kaid]

Pyramids do make a fair amount of sense. They make opening rifts pretty easy and safe or at least as safe as such things can be for traveling across a world instantly or between dimensions. Also do not think the area inside the pyramids where the rifts form is undefended would you rather have a naked rift pouring god knows what into your city unimpeded or would you rather it happen very infrequently and then in what is effectively a kill box. Think the stargate portal control room.

You see this in atlantis but the pyramids can also remotely power various constructs/obelisks for city defense/protection and that looks like it is getting expanded on at least a bit.

I can easily see the pyramids as a very handy central city structure that is your combination air port/medical facility/government seat/defense installation/research lab/manufacturing center. These pyramids can get huge and while five miles may seem long even if you are just doing them along one ley line you could still wind up having multiples in a town pretty easily. Construction around the pyramids can have a pretty big foot print for mid/high level stone masters to whip out their structures with the big multipliers and easy enough to go away from the pyramid dump their own ppe and go back for a lunch break to replenish themselves and go back out to continue work again.

[kaid]

From reading the books it seems clear that not all Line and Nexus are created equally. Do you think the PPE storage numbers given are the limit of the pyramids described or are for an average line/nexus?

My thought on the reasons for a pyramid are first and foremost to control the damaging and unpredictable nature of a nexus. It ends the threat of storms, and the other powers are simply a bonus. It like building a dam on a river that floods out every spring and knocks down the town. The dam has many other uses past flood control, but that is its primary function.

I think it's also important to consider the different levels of pyramid expertise. Lemurians have been practicing Stone Magic for 1000's of years uninterrupted, so have the Splurgoth, and Atlantean Clans like Skellion. Perhaps the new Book will answer some of these questions.

the problem is that you're not just building a dam that prevents the floods and can also have the extra benefits. these particular dams prevent the floods (good) but massively reduce all the other benefits of being on the river in the first place (not so good). as a result of the dam being there, you can only have one slightly larger water wheel instead of hundreds or thousands of almost as good smaller water wheels. you are getting far less total power, and you can only have that power in one specific place instead of many other locations.



I think that when the text in WB#2 says that normal ley line energy and bonuses arn't available it means that the the caster must be in or on the pyramid. The Pyramid is just a tool to manage the energy. It seems like you are saying the Pyramid kills all ley line energy and I think it reads as harnessing it to a specific place, the Pyramid. You say the other powers of a pyramid are not worth it if you lose ambient PPE. I respectfully disagree, a casual read of the of the powers of a pyramid are the basis for a magically civilization. I would trade random deamons popping out of thin air at any moment for making it rain anytime i wanted, for example.

seems to me that if you're so desperate to avoid the floods, you'd be better off building further away and just go to the river only when you need the (substantial) benefits of the river. or build a better dam (which it seems is fairly common to do, so it can't be that hard).

Think of it more like a cap on an oil well. Sure if it is raining oil everywhere you everybody can make some use of free oil. There is also the chance that something catches it on fire and it kills everybody. It is in theory better to cap the well so you can go to the gas station and fill your tank up in a way that is reasonably safe and controllable.

[Shark_Force]

it really isn't much like an uncapped oil well at all.

ley lines are pretty danged unlikely to have a ley line storm, and truthfully a fairly large number of things that can happen in a ley line storm if they do happen are annoying, disgusting, or unpleasant, but not really all that dangerous. and they certainly aren't at all likely to start the equivalent of a fire that will rage indefinitely unless major efforts are made to stop it. if they were, there wouldn't be any usable ley lines anywhere on the planet.

unless the new information on pyramids changes what they can do drastically, it's only really worth having them for communities that either don't particularly like the idea of magical energy being available at all, or only want a very limited group to have it.

and even then you have to add in a third requirement of being strong enough to fend off anyone else you might have annoyed by shutting down the entire ley line, which could extend for hundreds of miles and could thus annoy an awful lot of people.

[Jorick]

and even then you have to add in a third requirement of being strong enough to fend off anyone else you might have annoyed by shutting down the entire ley line, which could extend for hundreds of miles and could thus annoy an awful lot of people.

This is where pyramids start to break down for me conceptually. They exist around Rifts Earth, and not just on Atlantis, where one can argue everything is on lockdown anyway (though one may ask how dimensional raiders jump in and out of cities all willy-nilly).

Not only is it a bit unweidly for the GM, but it affects basic story assumptions, sometimes from thousands of miles away.

"You come across a large ley-line near tolkien...no you can't do that...yes there's probably a secret pyramid a quest NPC in the book is using to store secret things somewhere on it that I wasn't going to tell you about right away, and somehow never sparked any curiosity or aggression from the large local population of greedy magic users, but what else would keep you from doing that?...you get attacked by a coalition unit...no you can't do that."

Or

"You're a Lemuria on Easter island. This entire enormous ley line you use to power stuff is actually already used by a vampire intelligence thousands of miles away." (Or vice versa).

It's honestly just not worth the hassle conceptually, and I don't think any creator does conceive of the entire line being controlled. I think range is implied in many ways, but it's not explicit.

Does anyone think the limit on extra PPE is useful conceptually in any way? Do pyramids need that to seem useful in the way they are supposed to be?

[SereneTsunami]

it really isn't much like an uncapped oil well at all.

ley lines are pretty danged unlikely to have a ley line storm, and truthfully a fairly large number of things that can happen in a ley line storm if they do happen are annoying, disgusting, or unpleasant, but not really all that dangerous. and they certainly aren't at all likely to start the equivalent of a fire that will rage indefinitely unless major efforts are made to stop it. if they were, there wouldn't be any usable ley lines anywhere on the planet.

unless the new information on pyramids changes what they can do drastically, it's only really worth having them for communities that either don't particularly like the idea of magical energy being available at all, or only want a very limited group to have it.

and even then you have to add in a third requirement of being strong enough to fend off anyone else you might have annoyed by shutting down the entire ley line, which could extend for hundreds of miles and could thus annoy an awful lot of people.

If I read you right you are saying that it's better to have 1000 mages stand around a nexus and all have the bonuses that a unsecured nexus gives them then building a pyramid and gaining all the benefits. Am I understanding your specific complaint?

I'm having trouble with how it's hard to understand why folks would want to end the threat of a Leyline storm. Look at page 191-192 of the RUE. Those effects would be pretty annoying if you were a mage and wanted to use the nexus bonuses. If you add the 12 other listed benefits of a Pyramid in WB#2 you "1000 mages in a circle" isn't even close to matching the usefulness of a pyramid.

[SereneTsunami]

and even then you have to add in a third requirement of being strong enough to fend off anyone else you might have annoyed by shutting down the entire ley line, which could extend for hundreds of miles and could thus annoy an awful lot of people.

This is where pyramids start to break down for me conceptually. They exist around Rifts Earth, and not just on Atlantis, where one can argue everything is on lockdown anyway (though one may ask how dimensional raiders jump in and out of cities all willy-nilly).

Not only is it a bit unweidly for the GM, but it affects basic story assumptions, sometimes from thousands of miles away.

"You come across a large ley-line near tolkien...no you can't do that...yes there's probably a secret pyramid a quest NPC in the book is using to store secret things somewhere on it that I wasn't going to tell you about right away, and somehow never sparked any curiosity or aggression from the large local population of greedy magic users, but what else would keep you from doing that?...you get attacked by a coalition unit...no you can't do that."

Or

"You're a Lemuria on Easter island. This entire enormous ley line you use to power stuff is actually already used by a vampire intelligence thousands of miles away." (Or vice versa).

It's honestly just not worth the hassle conceptually, and I don't think any creator does conceive of the entire line being controlled. I think range is implied in many ways, but it's not explicit.

Does anyone think the limit on extra PPE is useful conceptually in any way? Do pyramids need that to seem useful in the way they are supposed to be?

I think that all of the benefits of a pyramid more then make up for the price, which is a more regulated flow of usable PPE. A pyramid destroys the single real drawback to a nexus(guaranteed periodic storms) and gives long life, healing, controlling weather, instant communications, teleporting, among others.

I think that we can expect a massive amount of pyramid data in the new Atlantean book. It's terribly underwritten for their importance in the world of Rifts. I thought one of the only disappointments in WB#32 was the Lemurian Ziggurats weren't given any different abilities then the Atlantean ones.

[kaid]

One thing interesting about the way pyramids work would potentially be combined with instant travel from pyramid to pyramid that is trivial to do atlantean cities could likely be really strange. Going to another "suburb" on the other side of a planet is just as easy as going to one 10 miles away. So while you lose the ley line travel abilities of things like ley line fliers potentially you gain instantaneous global teleportation for even non magic users who know how to operate these things or have somebody at the pyramid who can do it for you.

It also allows for easy and if you are going pyramid to pyramid safe and reliable rift dimensional travel. The only real chance you go to the wrong place or bad things happen is if you try to use it to create a rift to a non pyramid location. This is what allows a true dimensional spanning civilization.

[kaid]

Also I think we should note that on rifts pyramids work as a cap or a dam on a huge gyser of energy. But not all dimesions/worlds have a ton of PPE flowing. On those worlds the pyramids work like cisterns to glean and store up the meager amounts of PPE available to pool it into usable amounts to still allow rifts/teleporting on worlds that the magic flow would otherwise be to low to do other than on peek alignments.

[Shark_Force]

ok, a tiny fraction of the population can plausibly expect to fit inside a pyramid. practically speaking, the reduced rate of aging isn't a thing (it particularly isn't a thing for anyone that isn't a true atlantean, since nobody else actually gets reduced aging).

healing in a magical society is faster when you don't rely on a pyramid, because magic can heal you for a day's rest in under 15 seconds. the ability to get an extra day of healing by spending a day? who cares.

stasis sleep? only stone masters. no other magic user should want it.

focus and control PPE? that isn't actually a usable power, it just locks out anyone not standing on or in the pyramid. which generally doesn't have a lot of standing space, i might add.

ley line storms and random rift prevention? well, that's nice. but it's hardly the only way to do it. a variety of other ways exist across the megaverse. if this was the *only* way to prevent those things, it quite possibly still wouldn't be worthwhile (particularly since you can avoid ley line storms and random rift problems by simply not being there the majority of the time, and you don't need to build a pyramid that restricts you to having energy available only when you are physically on or in the pyramid). so, we have our first real benefit, but... it's a huge amount of effort and there are other ways.

increased power of stone magic? again, not available to the general population of magic users. frankly, you'd be better off just not being a stone mage in the first place, because not having to destroy thousands of credits worth of stuff every time you want to cast a spell is a rather significant advantage.

storage of PPE? it's a pretty minor amount compared to the amount the ley line would have provided anywhere in the first place. oh, i mean, it looks like a lot. but a random schmuck level 1 apprentice spellcaster can draw 10 PPE per melee round on a ley line, for a total of 2,400 in a 6 hour period. consistently. a ley line walker on a nexus blows a pyramid on a nexus out of the water.

creation of ley line storms? how is this even useful? ley line storms aren't an effective defense system.

weather control. you know what else can control weather? magic. you don't need a pyramid. in fact, you can get a much greater range of effects with magic than you can get from a pyramid, which only has a handful of options.

communication? magic has communication solutions too. methods that don't require 50 PPE, in fact. and not limited by the pyramid's reserves, either.

teleportation is the first benefit of any import. of course, a shifter should (these days) be able to use a communication rift to target a regular rift, if rapid transportation is needed, and again, not limited to the current reserves of the pyramid. at 100 PPE per 24 people, any major amount of teleportation is not going to get done with a pyramid. 7,200 people per 6 hours as a best-case scenario isn't awful by any means, but if i'm looking to use this as a primary method of travel, i'm not going to rely on something so limited. anyways, there are magic solutions that are equivalent here as well.

and the same for the last two powers; dimensional teleport and dimensional rifts. magic has ways of filling those needs already. they're not unique to having a pyramid, and they're not limited by a pyramid's PPE reserves.

so basically you get a handful of benefits that are not needed if you've already got a magical society. and, in exchange, every single member of your society is losing out majorly unless they live literally on top of the pyramid or something.

it's a huge effort to handicap everyone for the benefit of... uhhh... not needing to know a few spells? i mean, i guess if i had a city on a nexus and there was one ley line off of it (out of several) that was fairly unnecessary, i could see putting a pyramid on that line only. but really, they're good for societies with few magic users, not many magic users. the more magic you have in your society, the less useful pyramids get.

[eliakon]

A lot of this will be covered in the forthcoming Secrets of the Atlantians book. Right now though there is a Non-Disclosure Agreement in effect though preventing people who have seen the advance copies from commenting.

[Axelmania]

You don't exactly avoid the effects of random rifts. These always bare minimum release poltergeists and could bring much worse. Being far from the nexus only delays the inevitable encounter.

A magical society still might want to spend PPE on stuff other than healing people. Having a place to accelerate healing means they can do so without taking up the time of mages.

The PPE reserve is in addition to basic abilities so you could still let your walker channel 20/melee if on the pyramid.

Ley lines are a half mile wide.a This means if you make a pyramid more than 2640x 2640 you can actually expand the amount of land which nexus-powered magic can be cast on.

Pyramids are generally wider than.they are tall. Just how wide is a 1100ft tall pyramid going to be?

Build a square-mile pyramid and way more ley line walkers can benefit. Plus they get MDC shelter and deny the benefits of the line to approaching enemies not in contact with it.

Closing random rifts without permanent PPE expenditure is a good deal. I don't follow 1% annual random rift at line though. Rmb the only random rift chances appeared at nexuses during times of power.

[Shark_Force]

for a magical society, dealing with stuff that comes out of a rift should be pretty easy. for most societies capable of defending themselves, really.

a magical society that wants to spend time on things other than healing people can just use techno-wizardry healing devices. in fact, a magical society that wants to spend less time on healing people should choose a method that doesn't involve leaving someone resting someplace for days. magical healing with spells can generally be done in a few seconds for as much healing as a day in a period.

the PPE reserve is tiny and needs to be kept to power the abilities of the pyramid if the pyramid is to be of any value whatsoever. anything the pyramid does that might even remotely justify preventing people from being able to access the source of magic you've located yourself near costs PPE which comes from the reserve. a reserve which cannot replenish quickly and is not very large compared to the costs of the things the pyramid does. in any case, if you want a reserve, all you need is one person who can cast energy sphere in the entire city. that person can then create a truly massive energy reserve, potentially as much as a pyramid can provide, except per person instead of per nexus.

a pyramid of the size you're describing will take an extremely long time to build. a ley line with no pyramid takes no time at all to build. a pyramid of the size you're describing will take up all the real estate in a city, leaving you with no place to actually put your people, considering the apparent intention is to have the pyramid also be everyone's workspace and hospital and they don't exactly offer a huge amount of suitable space to do things on. a ley line takes up no space at all.

MDC shelter is easy for magical societies on a ley line. they can make wood. they can make wood into MDC material.

so long as there are ways of preventing ley line storms and random rifts that don't require shutting down the ley line outside of a tiny area (and there are, in various other places in the megaverse), pyramids are just not a very good idea for a magical society. they remove the primary benefits of building a city on a place of magical power, and they don't offer a lot of value for doing that.

[eliakon]

I would just like to make a few observations here...
all of this is based on pyramid magic as per the WB2 write up

1) the boosted PPE, is still available... just only in the Pyramid. So the society can tap into the boost AND the pyramid

2) Not every society has TW, most societies do NOT have TW. For those societies then "just using TW' is not an option

3) The only other canon way to deal with ley line storms are... Have a Millennium Tree on the line, or a fairly rare 11th level spell that has a pretty limited duration. And as a spell it is subject to issues like being negated.

4) And preventing random rifts is probably a good thing. As we have seen many times... some of those 'random rifts' can be utter disasters. If you get a portal to the heart of a star, to the plane of the dead (or even Dead Reign Earth), or release an AI, or get a rift that doesn't close again (like Azlum or St Louis)... All good reasons to make sure that you don't ever have the problem in the first place. I mean sure your army can stop the demons... and you will only loose a few hundred people. No more than a thousand. Probably. There is only a slight chance that you will lose an elementary school... Or you can lock it down and make sure that there are no incursions at all. And the only canon ways I know of to do that are to stack some Black Abyss spells on the Nexus... or build a Pyramid or plant a Millennium Tree.
I know which way I would lean.

[Shark_Force]

1) yes, but the pyramid boost is pretty bad, and also if you use it you don't get to use all of the other abilities.

2) most societies don't. most magic societies are crawling with them. oh, sure, there's a whole lot of nonsense about how it's a new thing, and not everyone has it. except, you know, everyone actually does have it. japan has techno-wizards. atlantis has techno-wizards, and they're all over the megaverse. the palladium world has a guy who can do TW stuff that blows the minds of rifts earth techno-wizards (from the SB 1 adventure, upgraded lord whatsisface). the 3 galaxies has an entire organization of hundreds (thousands?) of planets that use TW all over the place. even unintelligent or low tech places have them... the xiticix have techno-wizards, and there's some group of primitives in australia that have techno-wizards. south america has techno-wizards, too. europe has access to a bunch of techno-wizardry devices.

3) tolkeen has a TW one. many powerful beings can prevent them. and who's negating the spell? you have dozens of random people wandering around the wilderness with nothing better to do with their time than troll random villages?

4) eh, how many times have we seen random attended rifts be a problem? i mean, rifts where there is *nobody* to deal with the immediate problem, sure those can get bad (the xiticix say hi. or are they supposed to have been summoned by someone also? i can't remember if i read something, or if it was just speculation). but do we really have a lot of examples of rifts where there was an actual organized group at a nexus, and something horrible came through that was immediately going to kill hundreds or thousands of capable soldiers or magic users? we actually have explicit statements that rifts keep environments from passing through as well, so no stars or super-pressurized water from the marianis trench. the st louis rift and the azlum rift are not random. and there is no actual plane of the dead. supernatural intelligences don't need a random rift to get places, they usually either have specific rules for how to get to other worlds, or can just dimensional teleport, with or without a random rift. practically speaking, world-ending threats don't come through rifts fully functional. if they did, there would be no rifts earth (the several hundred years of random rifts would have destroyed the planet or made it uninhabitable) and rifts earth would, instead of being valuable megaversal real estate, be a barren wasteland that nobody wants to even get close to.

frankly, i think the great majority of the world-ending threats have come from deliberate rifts. the atlanteans borked the magic of the entire world. archie let in the mechanoids with the help of some random shifter (RIP random shifter). the apocalypse demons were invited a raving lunatic in egypt. mrr'lynn got himself to rifts earth, without needing any random rifts at all. we have lots of examples of *planned* rifts that went disastrously wrong. far more than we have examples of random rifts creating end-of-the-world scenarios. so far as i can tell, random rifts have primarily been responsible for things that are a threat to a bunch of random unarmed people, but to an actual group that has a significant portion of the population being magically active? not so much.

[Axelmania]

Think in terms of a poor society. TW needs gems and paying a TW for work in addition to the basic technology itself. A solitary stonemaster could build the core and then the surroundings. A small pyramid could be layered.on to become a giant one. Buildings could be added to the pyramid or people could build in large hollow areas of it.

I am confident a stone master could build a pyramid faster than you could ironwood a town up. Amplified stone master abities are also essential to detecting underground supernatural threats as the range far exceeds psi stalkers.

Energy sphere is a high level and rare spell and would need to be remade. Any first level stone master can make a pyramid and then do work and not worry about replenishing it.

Spheres.also don't deal with the dilemma of 2 PPE per close rift eventually ruining your mages. Spend 500 instead of 200 and no permanent sacrifice needed. This is better than the 540 for "Dance to Close a Dimensional Rift" if you happen to have an African Priest /Medicine Man / Rain Maker on hand.

It is also faster: 30 to 120 seconds instead of the 600 second minimum for rituals. Plus it is an automatic success, the rift will roll 16-20 25% of the time to resist ritual magic. Rituals also could be interrupted. Good luck chanting if you have a sore throat. Stone master just needs to will the rift to close.

Slow regent is fine since there is now only one time a year a random rift could open and even then it only does so 1/25 of the time. So as soon as that is dealt with you wait six hours and can use the PPE for the rest of the year.

[flatline]

This is where pyramids start to break down for me conceptually. They exist around Rifts Earth, and not just on Atlantis, where one can argue everything is on lockdown anyway (though one may ask how dimensional raiders jump in and out of cities all willy-nilly).

In response to the bolded portion of your post:

Pyramids and ley lines have nothing to do with casting the spell Dimensional Portal, except, perhaps, as a source of PPE.

--flatline

[Jorick]

This is where pyramids start to break down for me conceptually. They exist around Rifts Earth, and not just on Atlantis, where one can argue everything is on lockdown anyway (though one may ask how dimensional raiders jump in and out of cities all willy-nilly).

In response to the bolded portion of your post:

Pyramids and ley lines have nothing to do with casting the spell Dimensional Portal, except, perhaps, as a source of PPE.

--flatline

Indeed. Little is actually on lockdown. Except the ability of mages 5,000 miles away to use a leyline.

[dragonfett]

What if, instead of the normal amount of extra PPE, ley lines and ley line nexuses with pyramids have their extra PPE available cut in half for x miles away, with the additional ability that the Stonemaster in control of the pyramid can lock down the available PPE x miles away from the pyramid for y time (with x and y depending on the size of the pyramid).

This way the size of the pyramid plays a more important role (aside from how durable it is).

Note: Please don't shoot me if the pyramids already have abilities that get stronger with the size of the pyramid, it's been years since I have read in depth about the pyramids.