Anybody ever played a Mind Bleeder?

[thorr-kan]

I was remembering them as a PCC, not an RCC. But reviewing Psyscape corrected me. Their description paints them as real bad guys. But I'm curious in anybody's usage of them as PCs or NPCs.

[Glistam]

Never got to play one. I had one in mind as a "backup" character in my last Rifts campaign, but I never got to pull him out.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I was remembering them as a PCC, not an RCC. But reviewing Psyscape corrected me. Their description paints them as real bad guys. But I'm curious in anybody's usage of them as PCs or NPCs.

Not too bad, cause they are a race with pionic racial powers.
No, the closest thing was a Zapper with a few MB powers.

[flatline]

We treated them as a PCC since Atlantis listed Mind Bleeder as a possible class for True Atlanteans.

I got to play a Mind Bleeder demi-god (shifter abilities) for a while in a moderately high powered campaign. Mind Bleeder powers are subtle, but very useful. That character really took off once he Mentally Possess Others at 3rd(???) level. I think he was 7th or 8th when that campaign ended.

Very cool character and very fun to play. Might have been the only character I ever played for very long that was Anarchist.

[say652]

Been reading Psyscape all day, solid character choice.

[eliakon]

If there are plenty of other people to provide ISP they can be really powerful. And their telepathic abilities are hard to over-estimate. I find them to be very useful especially as NPCs. They make great subtle villains.....

[flatline]

Remember how video-games used to be in the 80's where there were no continues or saves and so you'd master and memorize the lower levels just so you could figure out the higher levels?

That's what playing my Mind Bleeder demi-god was like. Choose a hard target like a military base with lots of protection, possess a bird or small animal, bleed the aura from another small animal so that they can't see that your host is possessed, fill up on ISP from allies, and then try to sneak in, doing whatever damage along the way as is convenient. Hop from host to host as necessary due to the duration of Mentally Possess Others, steal ISP from the enemy at every opportunity. You can have them in a panic in no time.

If they catch or kill your current host, start all over again. Every attempt teaches you something about the enemy's capabilities and the damage you do each run accumulates. If you're careful or jump to a human (or whatever) before they realize they're under attack, they may never figure out you're using small animals to breach their perimeter.

Of course, there were several house rules that worked in my favor, like being able to cast spells whilst possessing an animal that couldn't speak (casting time was twice normal as suggested by Underseas). Being able to turn ISP into PPE to power my spells was super handy (via whatever that healing psionic is...can't remember).

Good times.

[say652]

will do

[say652]

will do

I found the Psi Slayer to better fit my play style.
A Coalition Psi battalion trained Psi-Net Spotter.
2-tw psionic implants.
Two Bionic Hands.
Internal Energy Supply.
Reinforced Endoskeleton. 15mdc normal punches and kicks inflict 1/2 damage as md on power attacks, Advanced cybernetic strength.
Cyber Armor.
Bionic legs&feet.
Bionic ps:30.
Pp:26.
Spd:50.
Bionic Armor uplink.
Has 2 Suits.
Leb1. MultiOptics. Camouflage system.
LeB3. Cyborg Jet Pack, Heavy Forcefield.

[eliakon]

will do

I found the Psi Slayer to better fit my play style.
A Coalition Psi battalion trained Psi-Net Spotter.
2-tw psionic implants.
Two Bionic Hands.
Internal Energy Supply.
Reinforced Endoskeleton. 15mdc normal punches and kicks inflict 1/2 damage as md on power attacks, Advanced cybernetic strength.
Cyber Armor.
Bionic legs&feet.
Bionic ps:30.
Pp:26.
Spd:50.
Bionic Armor uplink.
Has 2 Suits.
Leb1. MultiOptics. Camouflage system.
LeB3. Cyborg Jet Pack, Heavy Forcefield.

I dislike the whole "must kill sentient beings for their food" thing...
And your example character would have no psychic powers (that is WAY more than 3 implants....which would destroy almost all their psychic abilities)

[say652]

1/2 isp. Partial conversion. Ultralight.
6'3" height. 350lbs weight. Unarmored. No prowl penalty. Armor prowl and movement penalties apply. Horror Factor:11 Unarmored. Cybermesh Muscles and plates built onto, into and around his flesh.

I realize the issue, the "Borg" retains his original hp&sdc. I was Unclear about that. It's hard parts are legs, hands, and cyber Armor with corresponding mdc. The rest of the body has normal hp&sdc and gains hp&sdc as normal.

[Tor]

I was remembering them as a PCC, not an RCC. But reviewing Psyscape corrected me.

(SoTb1) Sedition 148 "powerful psychic OCC (Mind Melters and Bleeders favored)"

Sedition came out after Psyscape, maintaining that it is still an OCC (per Rifts Atlantis 16 and Phase World 43) in addition to being a psychic RCC (or PCC) per Psyscape.

possess a bird or small animal
bleed the aura from another small animal so that they can't see that your host is possessed
fill up on ISP from allies
Hop from host to host as necessary due to the duration of Mentally Possess Others
steal ISP from the enemy at every opportunity

Does anyone know whether it is possible to use your psionic powers while mentally possessing another body? I can't find it stating yes or no in any explicit manner under the MPO power.

I do recall that the major super ability in HU prevents you from using your powers while inhabiting another body, but I shouldn't assume that the psionic version has that limitation.

[thorr-kan]

I was remembering them as a PCC, not an RCC. But reviewing Psyscape corrected me.

(SoTb1) Sedition 148 "powerful psychic OCC (Mind Melters and Bleeders favored)"

Sedition came out after Psyscape, maintaining that it is still an OCC (per Rifts Atlantis 16 and Phase World 43) in addition to being a psychic RCC (or PCC) per Psyscape.

Magic 8 Ball says, "Reply hazy. Try again later." So...a case can be made either way.

Mind melter, mind mage, mind master, mind bleeder...master psychics aren't exactly as subtle and retiring breed, are they?

[Syndicate]

Yah, I've played one before. "She" was an espionage agent, and a pretty good one. Nothing better at extracting important details from NPCs and players alike.

[thorr-kan]

Yah, I've played one before. "She" was an espionage agent, and a pretty good one. Nothing better at extracting important details from NPCs and players alike.

In addition to an excellent espionage asset, Mind Bleeders seem like a wonderful anti-psychic asset as well. "All UR ISP are belong to us!"

[flatline]

Yah, I've played one before. "She" was an espionage agent, and a pretty good one. Nothing better at extracting important details from NPCs and players alike.

In addition to an excellent espionage asset, Mind Bleeders seem like a wonderful anti-psychic asset as well. "All UR ISP are belong to us!"

They can only attempt to steal ISP once a minute. That limits how quickly they can deprive the enemy of ISP.

--flatline

[Tor]

the closest thing was a Zapper with a few MB powers.

Or a Psi-Slayer, they can also get them.

Originally human-only although Canada said Noli can also be them. DB5p36 the Faustians say that Mind Bleeder and Psi-Slayer are psychic OCCS available to them.

Apparently the CS can also generate them as a failed result to create a Psi-Nullifier too =/

Yah, I've played one before. "She" was an espionage agent, and a pretty good one.

This got me thinking of a girl with a big veiny forehead and then I thought man, imagine a Mind Bleederess with Talo Mind Worms to make her extra veiny.

They can only attempt to steal ISP once a minute. That limits how quickly they can deprive the enemy of ISP.

Dual class with the Ghost Maker OCC, create entities who can steal ISP or PPE. I guess Shifters would also be good at this.

[sHaka]

Is there any difference between the Mind Bleeder class from WB4 to Psyscape or is it a complete cut and paste?

[Marcethus]

Closest I came was a demigod Astral Lord with Modified Psi-Slayer powers. Which gave him access to a few of MB category. Was very interesting and useful.

[Axelmania]

Several classes mention being able to select powers from 'any category' so they could get Mind Bleeder powers since it is a psychic category.

In Rifts Dimension Book 2 Phase World there are five examples:
*27 Phase Adept "one power from any category for each additional level of expeirence"
*29 Phase Mystic "One power from any one category can be selected for each additional elvel of experience"
*63 Ghost-Maker "two powers from any category (with the above exceptions)" exceptions were wipe/sword/possess
*64 Mystic Warrior "two powers from any category without exceptions"
*76 Royal Kreeghor "two more powers from any category" (the Kreeghor Emperor doesn't have this flexibility)

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Mind Bleeder powers are racially locked. [Much like how NB Talents are racially locked.] So except where the PCC says that the char gets MB powers (like the Zapper PCC) they can't take them. Yes, even those that, as you pointed out, say classes can take 'from any category" of psi powers.

There are four standard psi. power groupings that psions can take their powers from. (healing, sensitive, physical and super) ALL other psi powers are ether Racially locked (mind bleader powers & the SA2 MA RCC psi powers), Class Locked (phase adept powers) or H2H Locked (Rifts china)

The Mind Bleeder powers fall outside the psi power categories. To say that they are just another psi power category is just a house rule.

[Marcethus]

The Mind Bleeder powers are racially locked. [Much like how NB Talents are racially locked.] So except where the PCC says that the char gets MB powers (like the Zapper PCC) they can't take them. Yes, even those that, as you pointed out, say classes can take 'from any category" of psi powers.

There are four standard psi. power groupings that psions can take their powers from. (healing, sensitive, physical and super) ALL other psi powers are ether Racially locked (mind bleader powers & the SA2 MA RCC psi powers), Class Locked (phase adept powers) or H2H Locked (Rifts china)

The Mind Bleeder powers fall outside the psi power categories. To say that they are just another psi power category is just a house rule.

I fully agree with you drew, but to play devil's advocate Psyscape almost treats them as a separate Psi category. At least in the way they list them.

Though I do fully agree that unless the psi-class specifically mentions access to MB category, (Zapper and the Psi-Slayer) They are limited to only the Mind Bleeder.

[Axelmania]

Far as I'm conc

The Mind Bleeder powers are racially locked. [Much like how NB Talents are racially locked.]

Nightbane Talents are not locked, they can be learned by World Book 2 (Nightlands) Shadow Warlock OCC (and Athanatos if you World Book 4)

So except where the PCC says that the char gets MB powers (like the Zapper PCC) they can't take them. Yes, even those that, as you pointed out, say classes can take 'from any category" of psi powers.

Source?

There are four standard psi. power groupings that psions can take their powers from. (healing, sensitive, physical and super) ALL other psi powers are ether Racially locked (mind bleader powers & the SA2 MA RCC psi powers), Class Locked (phase adept powers) or H2H Locked (Rifts china)

Source?

The Mind Bleeder powers fall outside the psi power categories. To say that they are just another psi power category is just a house rule.

Source?

Far as I'm concerned Mind Bleeder is a "category" so it fits under "any category". For example under the Psi-Slayer "either the Super-sionic or Mind Bleeder categories"

[Prysus]

Far as I'm conc

The Mind Bleeder powers are racially locked. [Much like how NB Talents are racially locked.]

Nightbane Talents are not locked, they can be learned by World Book 2 (Nightlands) Shadow Warlock OCC (and Athanatos if you World Book 4)

So except where the PCC says that the char gets MB powers (like the Zapper PCC) they can't take them. Yes, even those that, as you pointed out, say classes can take 'from any category" of psi powers.

Source?

There are four standard psi. power groupings that psions can take their powers from. (healing, sensitive, physical and super) ALL other psi powers are ether Racially locked (mind bleader powers & the SA2 MA RCC psi powers), Class Locked (phase adept powers) or H2H Locked (Rifts china)

Source?

The Mind Bleeder powers fall outside the psi power categories. To say that they are just another psi power category is just a house rule.

Source?

Far as I'm concerned Mind Bleeder is a "category" so it fits under "any category". For example under the Psi-Slayer "either the Super-sionic or Mind Bleeder categories"

Greetings and Salutations. Depends on what you'll consider proof, but ...

RGMG, page 84: "Master Psychic: [snip] With rare exceptions, only the "Master" Psychic can select Super-Psionic powers and gets a huge selection from the three other categories." This states "three other categories" (as if there are only three), even though right below this entry they mention Mind Bleeders (so can't be just an oversight). Then on page 106, we have:

Mind Bleeder Powers
These powers are generally exclusive to the Mind Bleeder R.C.C.

The book specifically states "exclusive." Now there are a few others that specifically allow the class to select Mind Bleeder powers, but that doesn't mean it's still not exclusive. It's like a club that only allows members in. Just because members are allowed to bring in guests from time to time doesn't mean the club is open to the public, nor will some non-specific general admission ticket grant access. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Axelmania]

Greetings and Salutations. Depends on what you'll consider proof, but ...

RGMG, page 84: "Master Psychic: [snip] With rare exceptions, only the "Master" Psychic can select Super-Psionic powers and gets a huge selection from the three other categories." This states "three other categories" (as if there are only three), even though right below this entry they mention Mind Bleeders (so can't be just an oversight).

I agree that 'the three other categories' refers to the lesser categories of healer/physical/sensitive, I took care not to include phrasing like that.

Then on page 106, we have:

Mind Bleeder Powers
These powers are generally exclusive to the Mind Bleeder R.C.C.

The book specifically states "exclusive." Now there are a few others that specifically allow the class to select Mind Bleeder powers, but that doesn't mean it's still not exclusive. It's like a club that only allows members in. Just because members are allowed to bring in guests from time to time doesn't mean the club is open to the public, nor will some non-specific general admission ticket grant access. Farewell and safe journeys.[/justify]

"Generally exclusive" is not actually exclusive. Phase Adepts, Phase Mystics, Noro Psychics and Noro Mystic Warriors being able to select Mind Bleeder powers due to 'any category' is hardly 'open to the public', these are rare specialized psychic OCCs.

[Marcethus]

Greetings and Salutations. Depends on what you'll consider proof, but ...

RGMG, page 84: "Master Psychic: [snip] With rare exceptions, only the "Master" Psychic can select Super-Psionic powers and gets a huge selection from the three other categories." This states "three other categories" (as if there are only three), even though right below this entry they mention Mind Bleeders (so can't be just an oversight).

I agree that 'the three other categories' refers to the lesser categories of healer/physical/sensitive, I took care not to include phrasing like that.

Then on page 106, we have:

Mind Bleeder Powers
These powers are generally exclusive to the Mind Bleeder R.C.C.

The book specifically states "exclusive." Now there are a few others that specifically allow the class to select Mind Bleeder powers, but that doesn't mean it's still not exclusive. It's like a club that only allows members in. Just because members are allowed to bring in guests from time to time doesn't mean the club is open to the public, nor will some non-specific general admission ticket grant access. Farewell and safe journeys.[/justify]

"Generally exclusive" is not actually exclusive. Phase Adepts, Phase Mystics, Noro Psychics and Noro Mystic Warriors being able to select Mind Bleeder powers due to 'any category' is hardly 'open to the public', these are rare specialized psychic OCCs.

Those classes you mentioned are Master Psychic classes. If they had access to Mind Bleeder powers their class would specifically mention it. Like the Zapper and the Psi-Slayer.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Far as I'm conc

The Mind Bleeder powers are racially locked. [Much like how NB Talents are racially locked.]

Nightbane Talents are not locked, they can be learned by World Book 2 (Nightlands) Shadow Warlock OCC (and Athanatos if you World Book 4)

So except where the PCC says that the char gets MB powers (like the Zapper PCC) they can't take them. Yes, even those that, as you pointed out, say classes can take 'from any category" of psi powers.

Source?

The full quote of the paragraph is…

The Mind Bleeder powers are racially locked. [Much like how NB Talents are racially locked.] So except where the PCC says that the char gets MB powers (like the Zapper PCC) they can't take them. Yes, even those that, as you pointed out, say classes can take 'from any category" of psi powers.

It stands as a whole.

Yep, I thinking about the Shadow Warlock and their relationship to NB talents when I wrote about the NB Talents as an example. The example of how NB Talents are 'racially locked' stands up to your comments because like with Mind Bleeder powers they are exclusive to NB except where specifically noted in a class.


The categories of psi powers are Healing, Sensitive, Physical and Super. Since we are not talking BTS2 there are only four, not five.

Phase powers, while are Psionics (I loosely define psionics as those that use ISP to fuel the powers), are not in any of the psionic powers categories. They are class Psi powers. Much like the unique Racial Psi Powers of the RSA2 psionic RCCs, they are not within any psionic power category.

As Such the Mind bleeder powers are just unique Racial Psi Powers that a char has to be specifically granted access to because they stand outside the psionic power categories like the other Racial Psi Powers. The only difference between the RSA2 Racial Psi Powers and mind bleeder powers is that mind bleeders have a set of them the player can choose from.


Footnote:
The Athanatos are a RCC in the NB setting that are specifically given access to NB Talents as racial powers. The Book they were published in was not reprinted once the initial run was sold out.
Side-note:
Since the publishing run was sold out & and delisted from the PB store (and as such it is typically unavailable), and because of the way they were written into the NB setting, bringing them up here is nothing but a debate tactic to distract from what is being debated.

[Shark_Force]

if you're talking about shadows of light, i believe it is sold in PDF form still.

[drewkitty ~..~]

if you're talking about shadows of light, i believe it is sold in PDF form still.

Yes, I am.
I did check the PB store here before making such a statement.
And why I was particular in my phrasing within my post when talking about it,

[eliakon]

if you're talking about shadows of light, i believe it is sold in PDF form still.

Yes, I am.
I did check the PB store here before making such a statement.
And why I was particular in my phrasing within my post when talking about it,

A statement that was wrong though
They are available at the Palladium Books store... on Drivethru RPG.
Thus the book is in print, and available for purchase, from Palladium Books, right now. And the Athanos are not some distraction from an out of print book.

[eliakon]

As for the question of if Mind Bleeder powers are considered a psionic 'category' or not...
1) The RGMG (Page 85) has them listed as one of the Psionic Powers categories (Healing, Physical, Mind Bleeder Powers, Sensitive, Super-Psionics).

2) True Atlantans (at least, possibly other races though I cant recall off the top of my head) can be "Mind Bleeders" with out being a member of that race, meaning that it cant be a 'racial' power.

3) We have other categories such as;
-The hypothetical "Martial Art Psionics" of Conversion Book 1 fame/infamy.
-"Animal Psionics" from TMNT/HU/ATB
-Both the Fire Walker/Pyrokinetic and Machine Psionics/Psi-Mechanic powers from BTS 2.
-Chaos Earth and its 'minor psionic abilities' which have various bonuses instead of the 'normal' powers
-There are probably others that I can't think of off the top of my head as well (not to mention the various 'partially psionic' abilities out there...)
None of which fit the normal 3+super+special race/class powers, which makes it hard to argue that there are only five kinds of psionic powers (three minor, super/master, and everything else lumped into one massive 'other')

[drewkitty ~..~]

The PB store Nightbane page.
https://palladium-store.com/1001/catego ... tbane.html

The Shadows of Light book is not available there. I am correct in what I said, as I said it.

If I had been talking about the Drive through RPG site I would of said I was talking it.

------------------
1 The RDB2 book predates the RGMG…There for the standard is the RMB. Which only has four psi power cat.s available to the Phase Mystics.
2 RWB2 was written before the Mind-bleeders were written up as a Race instead of a Class. Thus the text you talked about was retcon'ed out of canon.
3 Talking about rifts at the time the PW book was written there are only four for rifts. Thus what I said was the correct thing to say about what is avalible to Phase mystics.

[eliakon]

The PB store Nightbane page.
https://palladium-store.com/1001/catego ... tbane.html

The Shadows of Light book is not available there. I am correct in what I said, as I said it.

If I had been talking about the Drive through RPG site I would of said I was talking it.

My point is that the implication of your statement is false, even if the exact wording is true.
The book is available, through official channels, and thus it is not a minor distraction.

------------------

1 The RDB2 book predates the RGMG…There for the standard is the RMB. Which only has four psi power cat.s available to the Phase Mystics.

That is your opinion sure. It is not cannon of course, but it is your opinion. And of course it runs into the problem of the fact that as I pointed out there are other 'kinds' of psionic abilities besides bleeder that make the claim suspect. The point is that the GMG does not MAKE them a fourth kind of power, it clarifies that their abilities are their own psi-category. They were made a new category in Rifts Africa when they were introduced. THAT book predates Phase World.

2 RWB2 was written before the Mind-bleeders were written up as a Race instead of a Class. Thus the text you talked about was retcon'ed out of canon.

what 'text rectonn'ed out of canon' are you talking about? Because there has not been an official retcon of any text on mind bleeders out of canon. Your house may run things differently... but if this is about canon then, sorry no. As per current canon Atlantians can still be Mind Bleeders. How do we know? We look at the most recent printing of Atlantis (8th) which was Shadowed to bring it into RUE compliance... and find that there are still TA Mind Bleeders...

3 Talking about rifts at the time the PW book was written there are only four for rifts. Thus what I said was the correct thing to say about what is avalible to Phase mystics.

Except that at there were NOT only four.
That is my point. We can point to Africa, and Conversion Book 1 and say "what about these categories here?" The Mind Bleeder category existed as soon as Africa was printed. The Animal Psionics came over in CB1. And the argument that Phase Mystics "Can select any power" does not apply to future powers is... suspect when the exact same text is used in many OTHER classes, which have been printed after other kinds of powers have come out... meaning that it is a general normal statement and not a specific one that only applies to a single class

[drewkitty ~..~]

The PB store Nightbane page.
https://palladium-store.com/1001/catego ... tbane.html

The Shadows of Light book is not available there. I am correct in what I said, as I said it.

If I had been talking about the Drive through RPG site I would of said I was talking it.

My point is that the implication of your statement is false, even if the exact wording is true.
The book is available, through official channels, and thus it is not a minor distraction.

The PDF of the book is avalible through DriveThrew RPG, yes.
The book itself, no.
While there are people that do sell their copies of the book (physical object) you have to go find it instead of just going to the PB store.
-----------

snip...
Side-note:
Since the publishing run was sold out & and delisted from the PB store (and as such it is typically unavailable), and because of the way they were written into the NB setting, bringing them up here is nothing but a debate tactic to distract from what is being debated.

Maybe I should of made myself clear.

...because they have specific text that lets them have talents, bringing them up here is nothing but a debate tactic to distract from what is being debated.

[eliakon]

The PB store Nightbane page.
https://palladium-store.com/1001/catego ... tbane.html

The Shadows of Light book is not available there. I am correct in what I said, as I said it.

If I had been talking about the Drive through RPG site I would of said I was talking it.

My point is that the implication of your statement is false, even if the exact wording is true.
The book is available, through official channels, and thus it is not a minor distraction.

The PDF of the book is avalible through DriveThrew RPG, yes.
The book itself, no.
While there are people that do sell their copies of the book (physical object) you have to go find it instead of just going to the PB store.
-----------

snip...
Side-note:
Since the publishing run was sold out & and delisted from the PB store (and as such it is typically unavailable), and because of the way they were written into the NB setting, bringing them up here is nothing but a debate tactic to distract from what is being debated.

Maybe I should of made myself clear.

...because they have specific text that lets them have talents, bringing them up here is nothing but a debate tactic to distract from what is being debated.

Now see... I'll buy that.
I will agree they have little to nothing to do with Mind Bleeders and their psionic powers...

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip..

1 The RDB2 book predates the RGMG…There for the standard is the RMB. Which only has four psi power cat.s available to the Phase Mystics.

That is your opinion sure. It is not cannon of course, but it is your opinion. And of course it runs into the problem of the fact that as I pointed out there are other 'kinds' of psionic abilities besides bleeder that make the claim suspect. The point is that the GMG does not MAKE them a fourth kind of power, it clarifies that their abilities are their own psi-category. They were made a new category in Rifts Africa when they were introduced. THAT book predates Phase World.

To understand the intent of the writer you need to understand the paramiters of of what he/she understood what to be the limits of what was avalible at the time.
Like a historian reading a text from 100 years ago talking about a marraige…in that when the text was written it only meant a bond between a man and a woman, not the perverted/changed meaning it has today in Europe and the US legal systems.

As such The writer would of been working under the canon text that Mind bleeder powers were (and still are except for specific exceptions) a set of racial powers restricted to that race.
Now, I might be wrong, but the 1st class (outside of the Mind Bleeders' RCC) I remmember that had MB psi powers made avalible to it was the zapper in Psycape. (yes, there might be others in psycape but that is the one that sticks in my head).

2 RWB2 was written before the Mind-bleeders were written up as a Race instead of a Class. Thus the text you talked about was retcon'ed out of canon.

what 'text rectonn'ed out of canon' are you talking about? Because there has not been an official retcon of any text on mind bleeders out of canon. Your house may run things differently... but if this is about canon then, sorry no. As per current canon Atlantians can still be Mind Bleeders. How do we know? We look at the most recent printing of Atlantis (8th) which was Shadowed to bring it into RUE compliance... and find that there are still TA Mind Bleeders...

You misread what I said. What I said was that the text in WB2 was retcon'ed by the mind bleeders being published as a race. Since the powers were made Racial Psi Powers by making the MB a Race and RCC combined, any text written before that was retcon'ed because of the conflict between the two texts.
That the Mind bleeders being a D-Bee race was not changed in Psycape.
Yes, the MB powers are racial psi powers…they are unavalible to normal psychics.

Since you are bent on stating that MB are a PCC, then show where in a Mind Bleeder text, that they are a PCC. Or in a text in post Psycape and Post the refurbished Africa book (aka 5th printing) As I pointed out the WB2 text was retcon'ed and is unavalible for the example you present as the basis of your opinion.

3 Talking about rifts at the time the PW book was written there are only four for rifts. Thus what I said was the correct thing to say about what is avalible to Phase mystics.

Except that at there were NOT only four.
That is my point. We can point to Africa, and Conversion Book 1 and say "what about these categories here?" The Mind Bleeder category existed as soon as Africa was printed. The Animal Psionics came over in CB1. And the argument that Phase Mystics "Can select any power" does not apply to future powers is... suspect when the exact same text is used in many OTHER classes, which have been printed after other kinds of powers have come out... meaning that it is a general normal statement and not a specific one that only applies to a single class

And as I pointed out before that there were/are only four catagories of power of psi powers.
The mind bleeder powers, while psionic in nature/basis. they are Mind Bleeder powers.

It is like you said that it was canon for elf psychic to have unrestricted access to all the racial psionic powers in the Rifts South America Book. People would laugh in your face.

[eliakon]

snip..

1 The RDB2 book predates the RGMG…There for the standard is the RMB. Which only has four psi power cat.s available to the Phase Mystics.

That is your opinion sure. It is not cannon of course, but it is your opinion. And of course it runs into the problem of the fact that as I pointed out there are other 'kinds' of psionic abilities besides bleeder that make the claim suspect. The point is that the GMG does not MAKE them a fourth kind of power, it clarifies that their abilities are their own psi-category. They were made a new category in Rifts Africa when they were introduced. THAT book predates Phase World.

To understand the intent of the writer you need to understand the paramiters of of what he/she understood what to be the limits of what was avalible at the time.
Like a historian reading a text from 100 years ago talking about a marraige…in that when the text was written it only meant a bond between a man and a woman, not the perverted/changed meaning it has today in Europe and the US legal systems.

As such The writer would of been working under the canon text that Mind bleeder powers were (and still are except for specific exceptions) a set of racial powers restricted to that race.
Now, I might be wrong, but the 1st class (outside of the Mind Bleeders' RCC) I remmember that had MB psi powers made avalible to it was the zapper in Psycape. (yes, there might be others in psycape but that is the one that sticks in my head).

Except that as I pointed out
1) TAs could be Mind Bleeders, thus the canon is that Mind Bleeders are NOT exclusively a race. Predominantly a race? Sure. But 4% of the TA population is, by canon, Mind Bleeders. And since by canon you can not cross-breed races, they can not be two races, or hybrids of two races... so they are True Atlantians.
2) Simply because they were a category of powers restricted to Mind Bleeders does not make them a category of powers

2 RWB2 was written before the Mind-bleeders were written up as a Race instead of a Class. Thus the text you talked about was retcon'ed out of canon.

what 'text rectonn'ed out of canon' are you talking about? Because there has not been an official retcon of any text on mind bleeders out of canon. Your house may run things differently... but if this is about canon then, sorry no. As per current canon Atlantians can still be Mind Bleeders. How do we know? We look at the most recent printing of Atlantis (8th) which was Shadowed to bring it into RUE compliance... and find that there are still TA Mind Bleeders...

You misread what I said. What I said was that the text in WB2 was retcon'ed by the mind bleeders being published as a race. Since the powers were made Racial Psi Powers by making the MB a Race and RCC combined, any text written before that was retcon'ed because of the conflict between the two texts.
That the Mind bleeders being a D-Bee race was not changed in Psycape.
Yes, the MB powers are racial psi powers…they are unavalible to normal psychics.

Since you are bent on stating that MB are a PCC, then show where in a Mind Bleeder text, that they are a PCC. Or in a text in post Psycape and Post the refurbished Africa book (aka 5th printing) As I pointed out the WB2 text was retcon'ed and is unavalible for the example you present as the basis of your opinion.

No, sorry that is not how it works
Mind Bleeders are BOTH a race AND a class for TAs. The addition of them being a race does not "recton" anything out of existence. This is proved by the fact that this detail has been kept, as a vaild canon class option, even through other changes in that book. If it HAD been retconned then you would need to point to a specific statement that it was no longer canon. You are not. BY THE BOOK True Atlantians can be Mind Bleeders. You can only be one race. Thus for at least True Atlantians (who are Humans) there is a Mind Bleeder OCC/PCC (not going to get in that argument here).

3 Talking about rifts at the time the PW book was written there are only four for rifts. Thus what I said was the correct thing to say about what is avalible to Phase mystics.

Except that at there were NOT only four.
That is my point. We can point to Africa, and Conversion Book 1 and say "what about these categories here?" The Mind Bleeder category existed as soon as Africa was printed. The Animal Psionics came over in CB1. And the argument that Phase Mystics "Can select any power" does not apply to future powers is... suspect when the exact same text is used in many OTHER classes, which have been printed after other kinds of powers have come out... meaning that it is a general normal statement and not a specific one that only applies to a single class

And as I pointed out before that there were/are only four catagories of power of psi powers.

That is my point. There are/were more categories, even at that time.

The mind bleeder powers, while psionic in nature/basis. they are Mind Bleeder powers.

Right there you just made a fifth category

It is like you said that it was canon for elf psychic to have unrestricted access to all the racial psionic powers in the Rifts South America Book. People would laugh in your face.

If all the racial powers had been listed as a single write up as "south American psionics" then they would.
Comparing Apples to Oranges proves nothing.
Mind Bleeder Powers are a category of psionic abilities unto themselves. They are one of the many additional categories of powers that exist.

Now the question of if a Phase Mystic can select from that category is a whole different kettle of fish... but they are not 'racial' They are, and always have been, a specific category.

[Axelmania]

Those classes you mentioned are Master Psychic classes. If they had access to Mind Bleeder powers their class would specifically mention it. Like the Zapper and the Psi-Slayer.

I don't see any validity in this argument. A category does not need to be singled out to be accessible or 'any' would not allow anything to be chosen at all.

I thinking about the Shadow Warlock and their relationship to NB talents when I wrote about the NB Talents as an example. The example of how NB Talents are 'racially locked' stands up to your comments because like with Mind Bleeder powers they are exclusive to NB except where specifically noted in a class.

What sources talk about Talents being racially locked? The Shadow Warlock proves that they aren't. Palladium also authorized publication of Athanatos and Dark Guardians in World Book 4 who could use Talents.

The categories of psi powers are Healing, Sensitive, Physical and Super. Since we are not talking BTS2 there are only four, not five.

Mind Bleeder is a psychic category, Psyscape is clear about that.

Phase powers, while are Psionics (I loosely define psionics as those that use ISP to fuel the powers), are not in any of the psionic powers categories. They are class Psi powers.

I don't agree that Phase Powers are psychic abilities, they are just ISP-fueled powers (perhaps magical ones, considering the 'Phase Mystic' being a magical OCC) which sometimes result in a save vs psionics like the magic spell Mind Blast does.

If they were explicitly considered to be psionic, Carrella would not have bothered with "seem to be a variation on psionic abilities" or "like psionic powers, they are activated by using ISP" on page 32. He intentionally left the door open to them not being psychic.

If a GM did consider Phase Powers to be a psychic category, the statement on 32 that "besides Prometheans, only the phase mystic OCC can learn these abilities" would have to be weighed against the 'any' statements elsewhere.

Much like the unique Racial Psi Powers of the RSA2 psionic RCCs, they are not within any psionic power category.

As Such the Mind bleeder powers are just unique Racial Psi Powers that a char has to be specifically granted access to because they stand outside the psionic power categories like the other Racial Psi Powers. The only difference between the RSA2 Racial Psi Powers and mind bleeder powers is that mind bleeders have a set of them the player can choose from.

The difference is that 'Mind Bleeder' is explicitly a psionic category (read the Psi-Slayer description) while the mutant animal RCC powers are not described as a 'category' by the book.

Footnote:
The Athanatos are a RCC in the NB setting that are specifically given access to NB Talents as racial powers. The Book they were published in was not reprinted once the initial run was sold out.
Side-note:
Since the publishing run was sold out & and delisted from the PB store (and as such it is typically unavailable), and because of the way they were written into the NB setting, bringing them up here is nothing but a debate tactic to distract from what is being debated.

Sold-out/delisted materials do not become irrelevant to discuss on the boards, or we would only have an After the Bomb board instead of noting we can discuss TMNT there. First edition Palladium RPG books are also out of print and delisted, we are still invited to bring them up on those boards.

Far more of a distraction tactic I think is bringing up 2 things which are not described as psychic categories: Phase Powers and South America 2's RCC powers for mutant animals.

The "Psionic Powers of a Mind Bleeder" section on page 95 of Rifts Africa did originally say "exclusive to the mind bleeder" but we know how long statements like that from Palladium tend to remain canon for... and Psyscape definitely broke that statement with the Slayer/Zapper, which then made it a category available to any class able to select from 'any' psychic category.

Page 45 of Psyscape removed that disclaimer when it retitled them "Mind Bleeder Powers".

Page 73 says "one from either the Super-Psionic or Mind Bleeder categories" proving Mind Bleeder is a category. It is obviously a psychic one since Mind Bleeder powers are psionic powers, which is why the list on page 35-36 of "Psionic Abilities" includes them.

I can get even more recent and verbatim here. From Dimension Book 11: Dyval Hell Unleashed page 14. Under the "2. Psionic Master" regent power it says "the following psionic categories: Healing, Sensitive, Physical, or Mind Bleeder". In contrast to the Psi-Slayer selection which ranks them on par with Super, this actually puts them in the same tier as the 3 lesser ones. We've seen demotions like this before like with Ectoplasmic Disguise (or TK Acceleration Attack's promotion to Super) or the kinesis powers in Nightbane.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Their Name, Nightbane Talents. And all the writing within the NBT text says they are nightbane talents.

The Rifts GMG page 106 says "These powers are generally exclusive to the Mind bleeder RCC." Which supports whatI have been saying.

Again, when the Phase Mystic PCC was written the mind bleeder powers grouping was not a psychic power category. So was not included within the meaning of what was written.

[eliakon]

Their Name, Nightbane Talents. And all the writing within the NBT text says they are nightbane talents.

Not really germane to this thread so ignoring

The Rifts GMG page 106 says "These powers are generally exclusive to the Mind bleeder RCC." Which supports whatI have been saying.

The word "generally" means that others can get them. This sort of rules out any claim that they are exclusive.

Again, when the Phase Mystic PCC was written the mind bleeder powers grouping was not a psychic power category. So was not included within the meaning of what was written.

Why do you claim they were not a category?
They were presented as a category in Africa
You get to pick "mind bleeder powers" and then there is a list of mind bleeder powers, which I note are explicitly called Psionic Powers. That sort of looks like a category to me.


And all of this dances around the issue that there are far more than just 5 Categories of Psi Powers. There are dozens. There are just 5 major categories (in Rifts). But all those other psionic powers that exist? They have to go someplace too... and they go in categories. Those categories though may be ones like "<race name> psychic powers" Or maybe "racial powers" then there are the martial arts powers, and animal psionics, and certain class specific psionics, or weird stuff that doesn't get sorted out (Hyper Sense anyone?). But that doesn't mean that these things don't exist, it just means that they are in minor categories, some times categories that are only one power in size.

[Nightmask]

The Rifts GMG page 106 says "These powers are generally exclusive to the Mind bleeder RCC." Which supports whatI have been saying.

The word "generally" means that others can get them. This sort of rules out any claim that they are exclusive.

Not when the word 'generally' is attached to the word 'exclusive' as a qualifier, it's pretty contrary to what the meaning of 'generally exclusive' is to claim it's the exact opposite.

[Axelmania]

'Generally exclusive' is less than 'always exclusive', and since we know that it is not always exclusive, exceptions can be made so long as there aren't so many as to contradict 'generally'. Which I figure is 'usually' or 'the majority of the time'.

The number of Phase Mystics and Noro-trained psychics and Zappers and Psi-Slayers and Dyval Regents in the Megaverse is too low for their exceptions to contradict 'generally'. The more common classes like the Mind Melter, plus the swarms of major and minor psychics out there, are still very much restricted against selecting Bleeder powers.

[drewkitty ~..~]

'generally exclusive'
Are descriptive words that reflect that the MB powers are exclusive to the Mindbleeders, while also acknowledging that there are some PCCs that have specific text giving them to the char.

Arguing otherwise is just making up house rules.

[eliakon]

The Rifts GMG page 106 says "These powers are generally exclusive to the Mind bleeder RCC." Which supports whatI have been saying.

The word "generally" means that others can get them. This sort of rules out any claim that they are exclusive.

Not when the word 'generally' is attached to the word 'exclusive' as a qualifier, it's pretty contrary to what the meaning of 'generally exclusive' is to claim it's the exact opposite.

To bad I am not claiming the exact opposite.
I am pointing out that "Generally Exclusive" does NOT mean "exclusive".
It means, by definition, that there are some exceptions, and that since those exceptions are not spelled out as to what they are beyond that they are "not general" (what ever that means) we have to make our own decisions on what they are.
Now people can make their own personal ruling on what that means... but with out a definitive canon statement we are back to arguing what we think the intent of an author was.

[Axelmania]

'generally exclusive'
Are descriptive words that reflect that the MB powers are exclusive to the Mindbleeders, while also acknowledging that there are some PCCs that have specific text giving them to the char.

Arguing otherwise is just making up house rules.

It seems like you're house-ruling that the only thing which could possibly downgrade 'always' to 'generally' is explicit exceptions and not implicit exceptions ('from any category')

It doesn't appear to be a house rule to interpret 'any psychic category' as 'any psychic category'. We know Mind Bleeder is a psychic category.

[flatline]

'generally exclusive'
Are descriptive words that reflect that the MB powers are exclusive to the Mindbleeders, while also acknowledging that there are some PCCs that have specific text giving them to the char.

Arguing otherwise is just making up house rules.

It seems like you're house-ruling that the only thing which could possibly downgrade 'always' to 'generally' is explicit exceptions and not implicit exceptions ('from any category')

It doesn't appear to be a house rule to interpret 'any psychic category' as 'any psychic category'. We know Mind Bleeder is a psychic category.

They're both house rules. Any rule interpretation made by the GM (aka the rules as written are not PERFECTLY clear) is a house rule. It may be that the house rule is consistent with the intent of the author, but it's still a house rule.

In this case, it is my interpretation that the first house rule listed (that exceptions must be explicit) is closer to the author's intent. The phrase "any psychic category" has been in use since before Mind Bleeders existed, so initially it could not have been meant to include mind bleeder powers. It would be strange for the authors to change the meaning of the phrase without saying something, especially when they do explicitly say something about allowing mind bleeder powers for certain classes.

--flatline

[drewkitty ~..~]

'generally exclusive'
Are descriptive words that reflect that the MB powers are exclusive to the Mindbleeders, while also acknowledging that there are some PCCs that have specific text giving them to the char.

Arguing otherwise is just making up house rules.

It seems like you're house-ruling that the only thing which could possibly downgrade 'always' to 'generally' is explicit exceptions and not implicit exceptions …snip

I say Exactly what the text is saying and you complain about it. What a double standard.

Yes, With the Phase Mystic I stated my reasons for making the ruling I stated. That the MB powers fall outside the intended scope of available powers to the PM. No, I'm not going to change my ruling just because you have a liberal interpretation of the text.

[Axelmania]

Liberal or literal?

The phrase "any psychic category" has been in use since before Mind Bleeders existed

Where?

[eliakon]

'generally exclusive'
Are descriptive words that reflect that the MB powers are exclusive to the Mindbleeders, while also acknowledging that there are some PCCs that have specific text giving them to the char.

Arguing otherwise is just making up house rules.

It seems like you're house-ruling that the only thing which could possibly downgrade 'always' to 'generally' is explicit exceptions and not implicit exceptions …snip

I say Exactly what the text is saying and you complain about it. What a double standard.

Where does the text say that then?
If that is what the text says, then there has to be a place where the books explicitly come out and define 'generally'. Other wise your just giving your personal opinion here (aka your house rule)

Yes, With the Phase Mystic I stated my reasons for making the ruling I stated. That the MB powers fall outside the intended scope of available powers to the PM. No, I'm not going to change my ruling just because you have a liberal interpretation of the text.

But its still your ruling then, ie a house rule, and not something that we can go to a specific line in canon for?
I ask because your sig line says that answers should have canon first, and then your house rules, clearly marked as such.... which seems to not be in evidence here...
Are you claiming that this is a canon rule (if so I am still waiting for a canon statement on this) or that this is your house rule (in which case shouldn't you mark it?)



My take away here is that you have decided to make a house rule about Mind Bleeder Powers, but I am not sure.

[eliakon]

'generally exclusive'
Are descriptive words that reflect that the MB powers are exclusive to the Mindbleeders, while also acknowledging that there are some PCCs that have specific text giving them to the char.

Arguing otherwise is just making up house rules.

It seems like you're house-ruling that the only thing which could possibly downgrade 'always' to 'generally' is explicit exceptions and not implicit exceptions ('from any category')

It doesn't appear to be a house rule to interpret 'any psychic category' as 'any psychic category'. We know Mind Bleeder is a psychic category.

They're both house rules. Any rule interpretation made by the GM (aka the rules as written are not PERFECTLY clear) is a house rule. It may be that the house rule is consistent with the intent of the author, but it's still a house rule.

In this case, it is my interpretation that the first house rule listed (that exceptions must be explicit) is closer to the author's intent. The phrase "any psychic category" has been in use since before Mind Bleeders existed, so initially it could not have been meant to include mind bleeder powers. It would be strange for the authors to change the meaning of the phrase without saying something, especially when they do explicitly say something about allowing mind bleeder powers for certain classes.

--flatline

While I agree that the "Any psychic category" has been in use before Mind Bleeders existed, when they were created, they at that moment, created a new category. From that point on, technically, the phrase "any psychic category" would include those powers as well. I do not think that was the intent... but that is what happened. This is made easier to see when we note that some times they will use other descriptions as well (such as listing the four categories, or "any of the three minor categories and super" or the like.)

Thus... Intent wise? No I don't think Phase Adepts or most psychics should be allowed to pick Mind Bleeder powers, and at my table they are restricted heavily (unless of course it looks like it would advance the game, or be fun. Then Rule Of Cool activates Rule Zero and I allow it). RAW? Due to ambiguous wording there is enough weasel room to justify a perfectly book legal claim that they can as they are said to get all categories, and as Mind Bleeder powers are indeed a category it is technically legal.