True Atlanteans and Wampyrs

[Marcethus]

True Atlanteans have the ability to Sense Vampires at a distance and a percentage to recognize one on sight. Would that also apply to the Wampyr?

It was a stray thought that popped into my head while reading the Nightbane books that I decided to see what others thought of.

[Nightmask]

They should qualify for the sense since they're still on the vampire side of things for what changed them.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I will agree with MN (it is the simplest way of looking at the canon rules) up to a point.

Coming down to how their sense Vapm. works.
I can see that the TA vampire sense is ether 1) sensing the VI in the undead or 2) they sense an undead.

With option #1 Wampyrs would not sens as vamps, because they don't have the vamp. Intl. in them. (making an assumption here about the results of the transformation.)

With option #2 the TA will sense Traditional Vampires & Vamp Intels. and also other forms of undead vampires. (PF:LotD2 & RDC)

However, the Wampyrs might trigger the vamp. sense but with an ODD feeling to it.

Yep these are things GMs get to decide for themselves.

[Marcethus]

I pretty much know that it comes down to GM's call but was wanting to see what others thought about it.

[say652]

No.

The nonVampire part of them would "cloud" the sense ability.

As they are not as specifically rules as written Vampires.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'd say they tingle the sense "funny". kinda like vampires or not. the true atlantean would sense them as Vampiric but something unusual. This might be good or bad, the atlantean wouldn't know, just that they're weird.

That's purely my own way of running it mind you. as far as i'm aware the books don't address it one way or the other.

[Marcethus]

I'd say they tingle the sense "funny". kinda like vampires or not. the true atlantean would sense them as Vampiric but something unusual. This might be good or bad, the atlantean wouldn't know, just that they're weird.

That's purely my own way of running it mind you. as far as i'm aware the books don't address it one way or the other.

This is personally how I run it. The few GM's I have ran across where it needed to be answered also ran it this way as well.

[eliakon]

Purely for my own games...
...I would have them ping as a vampire. I have Wampyrs set of all the normal detect vampire senses, spells, etc. They are more resistant to effects... but they are still, at the end of the day a form of vampire. A really weird one, but a vampire nonetheless. Or at least that is how I see it. And since in my games, it is my opinion that matters... though to be honest I haven't ever had a player that didn't agree with the idea that they were a kind of vampire. And once you agree that it is a vampire, of some sort. Then 'sense vampire' works. It doesn't say "Sense vampire of type A, B, or C'. Which means it will sense a Garkin just as well as a Ch'iang Shih or any other vampire.

All of the above is just how I see it though, but since the question was for opinions I thought I would share.

[Shark_Force]

i agree they'd sense as vampire. i do think a more experienced individual should be able to tell that they're a "weird" vampire (of course, they're extremely unlikely to assume that the weirdness allows for them to be non-evil without a lot of further evidence... evidence which may prove difficult to offer while they're busy shoving a pointy stick into your chest).

[say652]

I would in this case give the Alantean +1 on all rolls vs the wampyr.

Is not a full Vampire but you are definately in guard around this strange being.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I would in this case give the Alantean +1 on all rolls vs the wampyr.

Is not a full Vampire but you are definately in guard around this strange being.

Why would they get +1 when they do not usually get any bonus against vampires in the first place?

[eliakon]

My thoughts personally are that I would not allow any sort of 'acuity' in the roll at all.
It is a yes/no sort of sense that detects vampires. Nothing more.
I would not allow any sort of 'sort of' or 'fuzzy' or anything. And my thoughts on that are that if you want more information play a specialist. I am not going to make your job easier. If you want a way to tell 'good vampires' from 'bad ones' or to sort out 'VI vampires' from other kinds... then get a spell. Your racial ability says you can detect vampires... and thus you can do just that.

[Marcethus]

I would in this case give the Alantean +1 on all rolls vs the wampyr.

Is not a full Vampire but you are definately in guard around this strange being.

Why would they get +1 when they do not usually get any bonus against vampires in the first place?

I was wondering that myself.

[say652]

Instead of the ability to "sense" the Atlantean would feel on guard around a Wampyr.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Instead of the ability to "sense" the Atlantean would feel on guard around a Wampyr.

you mean more like a "spidy sense" that just tells them "something is not right"?

[say652]

Basically, the +1 bonus is almost like a Frenzy but no damage bonus or extra attack.

The Atlantean is on guard around the wampyr.

[Marcethus]

Yeah but we are wondering where you came up with the +1 in the first place since TAs have no special bonuses against vampires in the first place.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Exactly. If they sense a full vampire they don't get +1, so why would a wampyre put them even more on guard?

[say652]

They can sense Vampires, due to the ludicrous invulnerability of Rifts Vampires.

That's an Amazing advantage.

While the Wampyr can theoretically get the drop on the Atlantean, attack without being sensed etc.

The fact these Half Vampires even exist sends than into an almost frenzy like state.

[Nekira Sudacne]

What frenzy? What does invunerability have to do with sensing them?

It sounds like you are stacking houserule on top of houserule without unpacking for the rest of us again

[drewkitty ~..~]

I too am wondering why Say is saying such things.

[Axelmania]

How about Atlanteans and the Strigoi?

[drewkitty ~..~]

How about Atlanteans and the Strigoi?

How about Atlanteans and any of the other vampires in all the settings?

edit note: expanding the question.

[Axelmania]

You mean like the astral ones in Between the Shadows with the tentacle legs?

[Mathew]

I would say no, strictly on the literal interpretation of the rules. Detect vampire detects vampire, not vampire-ish beings.

Atlanteans detect Rifts-style vampire because Atlantis fought Rifts-style vampires for generations. They didn't fight any other vampire-like beings for generations.

BTW - My PCs had a techno-wizard vampire detector that was a cross that changed colors when a vampire was nearby. Saved their lives many times. It didn't detect Psi-Stalkers, despite them being "PPE Vampires".

[Misfit KotLD]

I'd say they tingle the sense "funny". kinda like vampires or not. the true atlantean would sense them as Vampiric but something unusual. This might be good or bad, the atlantean wouldn't know, just that they're weird.

That's purely my own way of running it mind you. as far as i'm aware the books don't address it one way or the other.

Since we game together, I'll add my thoughts, yes, an Atlantean can sense Wampires, and tell they are not quite real vampires. I also expand their sense to other undead,though the Atlantean might not be familiar with the exact abilities of the undead they face.

[Misfit KotLD]

My thoughts personally are that I would not allow any sort of 'acuity' in the roll at all.
It is a yes/no sort of sense that detects vampires. Nothing more.
I would not allow any sort of 'sort of' or 'fuzzy' or anything. And my thoughts on that are that if you want more information play a specialist. I am not going to make your job easier. If you want a way to tell 'good vampires' from 'bad ones' or to sort out 'VI vampires' from other kinds... then get a spell. Your racial ability says you can detect vampires... and thus you can do just that.

Yet there is also an "Identify" skill with a percentage progression listed along with sensing vampires.

[eliakon]

My thoughts personally are that I would not allow any sort of 'acuity' in the roll at all.
It is a yes/no sort of sense that detects vampires. Nothing more.
I would not allow any sort of 'sort of' or 'fuzzy' or anything. And my thoughts on that are that if you want more information play a specialist. I am not going to make your job easier. If you want a way to tell 'good vampires' from 'bad ones' or to sort out 'VI vampires' from other kinds... then get a spell. Your racial ability says you can detect vampires... and thus you can do just that.

Yet there is also an "Identify" skill with a percentage progression listed along with sensing vampires.

Correct, it lets you tell, on sight, that someone is a vampire.
I would not allow it to tell you what kind of vampire it is though.
The ability to instantly classify a foe into the exact category of their class is a hugely powerful ability. And the idea that they would not only be able to instantly identify the exact kind of vampire that they are facing (Which I will note that not even necromancers with specialized identification magic can do this!) but that they can identify obscure forms of vampirism that come from worlds that as far as we know have never been encountered by Atlantians?
It just doesn't pass the 'make sense' test. There is no way that a minor racial ability should provide a tool that specialists in that field can not replicate. And since neither Necromancers with their spells, nor any of the most highly skilled vampire slayers can do this trick...
I am going to say that it would be rather odd to think that any old Atlantian could.

[dreicunan]

I agree with eliakon regarding full identification, but it would.depend on how you run a failed roll. I'd always seen it as definite vamp or definite non-vamp on a success, and fuzzy/can't tell on a failure, so I can see ruling that a Wampyr always registers as fuzzy regardless of success or failure.

[Sir_Spirit]

My thoughts personally are that I would not allow any sort of 'acuity' in the roll at all.
It is a yes/no sort of sense that detects vampires. Nothing more.
I would not allow any sort of 'sort of' or 'fuzzy' or anything. And my thoughts on that are that if you want more information play a specialist.

They ARE the anti-vampire specialists in Riffs, TA produce a buttload of Undead Slayers,and all start off being able to sense and resist (via tattooes)vampires.

And how are Wampires(pronounce Vompire in the book) not vampires?
They are nocturnal undead blood drinkers made by other True Vampires. Whining about "but you spell their name with a W" or "but you pronounce their first syllable with an O sound instead of an " ah" sound" isn't going to cut it.

[eliakon]

My thoughts personally are that I would not allow any sort of 'acuity' in the roll at all.
It is a yes/no sort of sense that detects vampires. Nothing more.
I would not allow any sort of 'sort of' or 'fuzzy' or anything. And my thoughts on that are that if you want more information play a specialist.

They ARE the anti-vampire specialists in Riffs, TA produce a buttload of Undead Slayers,and all start off being able to sense and resist (via tattooes)vampires.

And how are Wampires(pronounce Vompire in the book) not vampires?
They are nocturnal undead blood drinkers made by other True Vampires. Whining about "but you spell their name with a W" or "but you pronounce their first syllable with an O sound instead of an " ah" sound" isn't going to cut it.

They are not the specialists because the ability is a racial one.
Being a five year old TA kid should not make your better at identifying vampires than a fully trained necromancer, or ecohunter, or psi-stalker or any other actual specialist in the field.
Especially since the premier specialist in the field (the necromancer) has no canon way of performing a test of this granularity.
It makes less than no sense to me that every kid in the TA race is better than the various "Identify Undead" spells or class abilities.

And then of course there is the fact that TA =/= Undead Slayer and TA =/= Tattoos. Simply because they provide the lions share of the Undead Slayers and are the second largest user of Tattoo's out there doesn't mean that they should some how get special abilities.
After all, humans provide almost all the Elemental Fusionists, that doesn't mean that we should assume that humans have a special link to the elements or that humans, as a race, get a bonus elementally because of the large number of the class.

And Wampyr's are NOT undead. That's the whole point.
They are... something. But they aren't undead. Undead in palladium has a rather specific meaning. And when the description of the Wampyr says " they need far less than the true undead" that sort of means, by definition, that they are not true undead. I am not really sure what Wampyrs are (which is, I suspect the entire point of the exercise... to make them something mysterious that can be filled in by the GM to fit their particular game) but what ever it is, we know what it isn't. It isn't a vampire (which has a specific meaning in Palladium here), it isn't an undead, and it isn't linked to a V.I. beyond that it gets nebulous fast.

For what its worth Here is what I would say will trigger your "vampire sense"
Ch'iang Shih
Demonic Vampire Familiar (it is an extension of the V.I.)
Master Vampire (V.I.)
Necromancers who have Retuned from the Grave
Palladium Fantasy 1st ed. Vampires (undead/demon things)
Secondary Vampire (V.I.)
Strigoi (V.I.)
Vampire Intelligence
Wild Vampires (V.I.)
Yara Mayha Sho
Any that else that is a contagious form of true Undead that requires blood taken from the living as sustenance to maintain its existence.

What will NOT set it off
Adze
A'rac
Blood Priest
Chupacabra
Cold Blood
Garkain
Giant Vampire Bats
Mopaditis
Psi-Leech
Psi-Slayer
Psi-Stalker
Wampyr
Anything that is 'just' undead (it is not 'detect undead')
Anything that 'just' drinks blood (it is not 'detect hemovore')
And anything Else that is not a contagious form of true Undead that requires blood taken from the living as sustenance to maintain its existence.

[Sir_Spirit]

They are not the specialists because the ability is a racial one.

That seems racist, but ignoring that, it's not a counter-Argument. Plenty of races are specialist, remember the translator race from Splynn Dimensional Market?
A race that specialises in translating.

[drewkitty ~..~]

They are not the specialists because the ability is a racial one.

That seems racist, but ignoring that, it's not a counter-Argument. Plenty of races are specialist, remember the translator race from Splynn Dimensional Market?
A race that specialises in translating.

There is not any Racist sentiment in eliakon's statement.

There is only acknowledgement that TA humans have a special ability. And that special ability does not make them specialists.

[eliakon]

They are not the specialists because the ability is a racial one.

That seems racist, but ignoring that, it's not a counter-Argument. Plenty of races are specialist, remember the translator race from Splynn Dimensional Market?
A race that specialises in translating.

1) its not racist to point out that being a member of a race does not inherently make you a specialist.
2) it is not racist to point out races exist
3) having the ability to sense vampires does not make you a specialist in undead.
4) that the ability to sense vampires is not the same as the ability to analyze vampires and identify the exact kind of vampire that is present.
5) that based on 1-4 TA's are not "the anti-vampire specialists in Rifts". They may provide some of the people that become some of the classes that are some moderately skilled vampire-fighters. But they are in no way, shape or form "the specialists" on any class basis let alone on a racial one.

The Translator is a specialist because it has a special power that gives it a specialist ability.
If it just had a racial +10% to language skills that would not make it a specialist in languages. Nor would a race that gets said +10 bonus be considered to be a specialist of equal or greater stature than the Rulian. They might be considered to have a knack for languages, they might even provide a number of skilled and well trained linguists... but they would not be racially considered specialists and rightly so. The same thing applies here. The Atlantians have a "bit of a knack" that makes them a bit skilled in vampire hunting. That does not make them in any way, shape or form specialists in the field of vampires. At a minimum they would need to racially gain the Lore: Vampire skill...which they do not.

Atlantian's get a basic ability. That ability is that they can sense vampires. No more, no less.
It doesn't say anything about them having any other sensory powers, nor any ability to use their ability in any advanced way to perform any highly advanced analysis of what sort of vampire they detect. Just a binary Yes/No.
Which makes sense because there are lots of "detect undead" abilities in game... but there are few (if any) identify undead abilities. The first sort of power is fairly common and widely distributed. The second power is so rare that I can not think of any examples off the top of my head (though I will think there might be some I can't think of any.). Thus while I have no problem at all believing that Atlantians have the first sort of power, it strains credulity to believe they have the second sort.
ESPECIALLY when this super rare power, that is a better diagnostic tool than that available to any Necromancer... is predicated on an implied statement. It isn't like the text comes out and says the power exists, but instead that we are to some how infer that this nigh unto unique ability exists...with out any explicit mention of it, because... why?

That is my stance here.

That the claim of Atlantians having an extraordinarily potent and nigh-unto unique power is a rather extraordinary claim and that it needs some rather extraordinary evidence beyond "well it should exist because it should exist"
Especially in the light of the fact that the much simpler explanation is that they have the very common ability to simply detect undead (or in this case a specific sub-class of undead), and in the light of the lack of any supporting skills or abilities (they do not have any other lore's or skills or anything else that would support the idea that they are racially premier vampire experts)

[Sir_Spirit]

There is not any Racist sentiment in eliakon's statement.

He dismissed something based on race, thats racist.

[eliakon]

There is not any Racist sentiment in eliakon's statement.

He dismissed something based on race, thats racist.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word "racist"
To help I will provide the definition

rac·ist
[ˈrāsəst]
NOUN
a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another:
"the comments have led to her being called a racist"
synonyms: racial bigot · racialist · xenophobe · chauvinist · supremacist · [more]
ADJECTIVE
showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or believing that a particular race is superior to another:
"we are investigating complaints about racist abuse at the club"

I will note that my comments are neither prejudicial nor discriminatory. They are simply matters of fact that are based on an examination of actual, verifiyable objective facts.
Nor do any of my statements imply any race is superior to another. In fact they could be (and should be) construed as implying the opposite.
In short... there is literally nothing racist about my statements.
So yeah... you can try and turn it into an attack on me and claim that I was being racist.
But the fact are pretty simple and they are"
1) It isn't racist to discuss questions that legitimately involve race
2) it isn't racist to discuss if a legitimate question of race does or does not make a specific race better or not at something
3) the issue of racial abilities was the entire point of the thread and thus no discussion of the topic can take place in any context outside of race
4) most importantly that I made no such claims in the first place and that it requires paraphrasing a discussion, out of context, to imply that I did.

Moving on though

It appears that you totally misunderstood my comment.
I dismissed the idea that simply being a race (absent a specific and called out grant of said specialization) makes anyone a specialist.
I dismissed the idea that being a member of a specific race makes anyone better than another person.
If your idea of racist is "does not accept the racial superiority of certain races" then I guess you and I are going to have some serious issues.
Because that is what I was categorically rejecting. The ludicrous concept that simply because a person is a member of a specific race that they are inherently better than everyone else and that they are thus more qualified than any other person in some field.

Which is kind of a key issue when the discussion is turning on if simply being a member of a given race is sufficient to make a person an expert on something and thus a super specialist that is better at a given task than any other person in the Megaverse regardless of training.
That isn't 'racism' that is the logical analysis of the question "is race X, as defined by the following objective criteria, better or not at a specific task, if so why or why not" which given the fact that the entire thread is a question about a specific racial ability... it will as a matter of fact, be a discussion about racial abilities.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is not any Racist sentiment in eliakon's statement.

He dismissed something based on race, thats racist.

He sidestepped the 'racist' issue.
While I directly confronted the issue (w/o any condemnation of Sir Spirit.)
The only reason he got quoted is because he used the word.