UEEF Defensive Systems, Return of the Barriers

[Sparticus]

I found it funny that neither the Pin-Point Barrier or the Full Barrier Systems were never mentioned in the new books. Hell the Ikazuchi-class did not even have its DS-1 in its stat block and the SDF-3 did not get featured at all let alone its DS-2 system. Therefore, I recently added the DS-1 back to the Ikazuchi-class as well as added it to the Shimakaze-class as well as the Liborator-class. I also added the DS-2 to the Liberator-class as well as hay its battlefortress like the SDF-3 so why not. I just feel that these systems would and should be included. Fortunately, I still have the old Sentinels Book from way back when and It was a simple thing to transplant the systems into the newer stat blocks. These were iconic and they were in the original Robotech show and were featured numerus times. Without the Pin-Point Barrier system the Daedalus Maneuver would not have been posable without severely damaging the SDF-1. To me this is ample reason to re-include them.

If any of you have thought on this subject or subjection on how I may update these two iconic defense system for the modern Robotech setting, please share your thought.

[glitterboy2098]

actually the Ikazuchi's in the show (neither new gen or Shadow chronicles) are shown to have any obvious form of energy shielding. in fact aside from the SDF-1 no human ships are shown to have such technologies. (and only the Invid and master's are shown to have it of the alien foes)

there is a bit of ambigious dialog in the first episode of new Gen that could suggest a possible "thermal shield" on Horizon-T's, but exactly what that meant was not explained, nor was there any visual evidence to help explain what it meant. (it could just as easily refer to some sort of physical armor like the space shuttle and space capsules use)

in the Prelude to Shadow Chronicles comics, the when the SDF-3 is attacked by Edward's Shadow Fighters, an order to raise shields is given,. but no visual cues were shown as to what they meant exactly. since the target of the attack was the large transparent viewport on the main bridge, the order could just as easily have been like in old battlestar galactica, and be calling for armored panels to be raised over the window as it was for trek or star wars style energy barriers.

[Seto Kaiba]

I found it funny that neither the Pin-Point Barrier or the Full Barrier Systems were never mentioned in the new books.

That'd be because the Robotech RPG's "2nd Edition" is trying to follow official canon... and, officially speaking, the only ships depicted with energy shielding were the SDF-1 and Robotech Masters motherships. The Invid had a static form of energy shielding for their hives, and the Haydonites have... something undefined... but otherwise it's pretty much just those two ships. It's something the UEDF, ASC, and UEEF fleets never actually had.

Those barriers are kind of "plot armor" energy shielding, and the RPG kind of glosses over ship-to-ship combat in general.

(Of course, this has a lot to do with the original shows... energy shields and force fields were alien technology that was beyond humanity's experience in Southern Cross and MOSPEADA, and so the human ships in either series had no energy shields. Robotech's story rewrote Macross's story to change the origin of the titular ship's omnidirectional barrier, making it alien technology instead of a human invention.)

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Episode #47 Outsiders
Major Carpenter: Damage report!
Bridge Crewman: Sir, our defense shields are ruptured and primary starboard thrusters have been completely neutralized.
......
Executive Officer: Sir, shields are completely down. We could blow apart at any time.

[tobefrnk]

I could be wrong, and can't reference right now as my stuff is in moving boxes, but I think there is a green glow shield depicted protecting the SDF-3 bridge when the order to raise shields is given. I'm remembering it from the Collected Trade Paperback release.

As for my own games, I too am of the camp that has added pinpoint barriers back to the ships. I made a consideration though that has the use of the barriers negate any Shadow Device bonus.

in the Prelude to Shadow Chronicles comics, the when the SDF-3 is attacked by Edward's Shadow Fighters, an order to raise shields is given,. but no visual cues were shown as to what they meant exactly. since the target of the attack was the large transparent viewport on the main bridge, the order could just as easily have been like in old battlestar galactica, and be calling for armored panels to be raised over the window as it was for trek or star wars style energy barriers.

[ShadowLogan]

Episode #47 Outsiders
Major Carpenter: Damage report!
Bridge Crewman: Sir, our defense shields are ruptured and primary starboard thrusters have been completely neutralized.
......
Executive Officer: Sir, shields are completely down. We could blow apart at any time.

There is also the time Khyron mentions shields in "Bursting Point" in relation to his forces before they attacked the SDF-1 and it raised its energy shield ("They're dead a head keep your shields up and fire when ready let's get them now", there are at least two later exchanges about the SDF-1 shield specifically)

but otherwise it's pretty much just those two ships. It's something the UEDF, ASC, and UEEF fleets never actually had.

Otherwise its just those two ship types (and Invid Hives) that demonstrate shields with a visible effect because there are statements that shields exist in the animation elsewhere, but they are non-visible.

[Seto Kaiba]

but otherwise it's pretty much just those two ships. It's something the UEDF, ASC, and UEEF fleets never actually had.

Otherwise its just those two ship types (and Invid Hives) that demonstrate shields with a visible effect because there are statements that shields exist in the animation elsewhere, but they are non-visible.

As we know from many similar discussions we've had in the past, Harmony Gold doesn't consider the dialog of the series to be an infallible source of information... precisely because there are so many cases where the dialog does not align with the accompanying visuals. It seems highly probable this is one such situation, given that the official Infopedia only ever mentioned ship-mounted barriers/force fields on the two aforementioned ship types, which is almost certainly why the RPG does not mention other ships as having barrier systems.

There are, as others noted, some brief throwaway mentions of shields in dialog unsupported by the visuals... and I pointed out why: the human forces in Southern Cross and MOSPEADA didn't possess energy shield/force field technology in any form. That's why when the Robotech dialog mentions shields, the shields never appear and never manage to protect the ship from anything as one would expect a generic sci-fi shield to do... preventing collisions and repelling enemy fire and so on.

[SRoss]

Marlene also mentions shields during the reentry operation.

[ShadowLogan]

but otherwise it's pretty much just those two ships. It's something the UEDF, ASC, and UEEF fleets never actually had.

Otherwise its just those two ship types (and Invid Hives) that demonstrate shields with a visible effect because there are statements that shields exist in the animation elsewhere, but they are non-visible.

As we know from many similar discussions we've had in the past, Harmony Gold doesn't consider the dialog of the series to be an infallible source of information... precisely because there are so many cases where the dialog does not align with the accompanying visuals. It seems highly probable this is one such situation, given that the official Infopedia only ever mentioned ship-mounted barriers/force fields on the two aforementioned ship types, which is almost certainly why the RPG does not mention other ships as having barrier systems.

There are, as others noted, some brief throwaway mentions of shields in dialog unsupported by the visuals... and I pointed out why: the human forces in Southern Cross and MOSPEADA didn't possess energy shield/force field technology in any form. That's why when the Robotech dialog mentions shields, the shields never appear and never manage to protect the ship from anything as one would expect a generic sci-fi shield to do... preventing collisions and repelling enemy fire and so on.

I know and we could go back and forth on the subject. However if someone is looking for justification to add things in that the 2E RPG has omitted to date, show dialogue certainly can be a valid source (assuming no specific contradictions). By dialogue alone one can add (and by no means intended as a complete list):
-Force Field Technology being available and deployed, though these fields would not be as "flashy" as the SDF-1/RM-Cityship versions, at minimum several specific platforms are implied to be in this area
-Human Cybernetics/Bionics that qualify as old by 2029 (in Rifts/general Palladium terms they don't have Bio-Systems, but could have regular artificial cybernetics and bionics, Masters do have Bio-Systems if we just want to plug them in from other game lines instead of working out "custom")
-additional factions including alternate Zentreadi evolutions being encountered (Gloval's history combined with Leonard statement could imply that other evolutions of Zentreadi could be out there), the Disciples of Zor, and Space Pirates (which could be new aliens given how little is given on them), maybe even "Robotech Forces" (Gloval referenced in Ep36, which could be taken as a separate faction and not implied to be Khyron depending on how one reads the quote)
-at least two new species of animals (alien or mutation?) seen in TRM saga (Dana's stray "dog/cat" in TRM#2, and the Mound Bats seen later)
-tourist attractions that might exist Pre-Invid/Post-Rain (ex. the Resort Island Rook was looking forward to by dialogue in "Metamorphosis")
-several new mecha/ships to flesh out UEEF/UEDF inventories in various periods (examples: Wolf Flashback Fighter, Carpenter Fighter, Orgus cameo, several types of tanks and ships and this is without getting into more controversial selections IMHO that could be dismissed as AEs)

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I would love to point out the fact that there is already weapons and such listed on the Ikazuchi in The Shadow Chronicles RPG that aren't listed in either the Infopedia or OSM, nor is there ANY animation or dialogue to back-up such systems being in evidence......

[Jefffar]

Has the infopedia been put back up or is it still down? I'd think that if it's no longer being looked after its creditability as the go to source is pretty undermined.

[Seto Kaiba]

Has the infopedia been put back up or is it still down? I'd think that if it's no longer being looked after its creditability as the go to source is pretty undermined.

Nope, Harmony Gold has shown no inclination to restore any portion of the old site... the official site is now only a rather primitive webstore covered in spambot comments.

As far as credibility goes, the Infopedia and the content the Shadow Chronicles artbook copy-pasted from it is winning a one-horse race as the only official reference material published for Robotech by Harmony Gold that survived the reboot. They disowned everything their licensees had made back in '06, and even before that the only real reference sources of any credibility they had other than the Infopedia were the animation source material and Robotech Art 1.

Kinda shot themselves in the foot, didn't they?

[Jefffar]

Well if the infopedia didn't list shields on ships that the show provides evidence for having shields, not having it around to muddy up the waters might be a good thing. At least until it can be properly redone.

[glitterboy2098]

I would love to point out the fact that there is already weapons and such listed on the Ikazuchi in The Shadow Chronicles RPG that aren't listed in either the Infopedia or OSM, nor is there ANY animation or dialogue to back-up such systems being in evidence......

You mean the gear introduced in the 'making shadow chronicles' section at the back of every issue of prelude, where they showed final production art with annotations alongside interview type articles about creating the film and robotechs new direction?

And I would point out that in the southern cross dialog given earlier, the UE of 'ruptured' suggests physical rather than energy protection. Like perhaps the outer hul of the ship is actually a layer of modular armor shields, held off slightly from a less durable true hull inside. Like a combination antiballistic whipple shield, and the add on/quick replace armor panels some armored vehicles have used since the cold war.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well if the infopedia didn't list shields on ships that the show provides evidence for having shields, not having it around to muddy up the waters might be a good thing. At least until it can be properly redone.

As Harmony Gold has gone on the record several times to express that they don't consider the show's dialog to be entirely accurate - usually in connection with this kind of dialog-only aberration - what leads you to think the Infopedia's omission of shields wasn't entirely intentional? Under identical circumstances, they shot down the "Sylphid Veritech" dialog-based fan theory with prejudice.

(I always feel bad when I see that kind of unfettered optimism though... Robotech fans have gotten really good at setting themselves up for disappointment.)

[Jefffar]

You mean the gear introduced in the 'making shadow chronicles' section at the back of every issue of prelude, where they showed final production art with annotations alongside interview type articles about creating the film and robotechs new direction?

And I would point out that in the southern cross dialog given earlier, the UE of 'ruptured' suggests physical rather than energy protection. Like perhaps the outer hul of the ship is actually a layer of modular armor shields, held off slightly from a less durable true hull inside. Like a combination antiballistic whipple shield, and the add on/quick replace armor panels some armored vehicles have used since the cold war.

If you are thinking of spaced armour, I'm not sure I would expect that to be called a shield in the context of a space opera/science fiction piece.

As Harmony Gold has gone on the record several times to express that they don't consider the show's dialog to be entirely accurate - usually in connection with this kind of dialog-only aberration - what leads you to think the Infopedia's omission of shields wasn't entirely intentional? Under identical circumstances, they shot down the "Sylphid Veritech" dialog-based fan theory with prejudice.

My counter to that is, what makes you think the Infopedia being taken down wasn't also intentional?

[Seto Kaiba]

As Harmony Gold has gone on the record several times to express that they don't consider the show's dialog to be entirely accurate - usually in connection with this kind of dialog-only aberration - what leads you to think the Infopedia's omission of shields wasn't entirely intentional? Under identical circumstances, they shot down the "Sylphid Veritech" dialog-based fan theory with prejudice.

My counter to that is, what makes you think the Infopedia being taken down wasn't also intentional?

Simple, my good fellow. If you recall, the old site wasn't taken down by Harmony Gold (voluntarily).

What brought the old site down was it getting hacked and vandalized with monotonous regularity over the course of a couple months, until Harmony Gold gave up trying to undo the damage and patch the thousands of vulnerabilities in the ancient MySQL server and CMS software the site used. The replacement was a quick and dirty home page worthy of a 90's Geocities website, that's little more than links to their MyShopify web storefront, Facebook, and Twitter.

[Jefffar]

Like you said, they recreated Robotech.com, but did not recreate the Infopedia.

They recreated Robotech.com some time ago. If they wanted to recreate the Infopedia they certainly have had ample opportunity to do so. That they haven't indicates that they don't think it's worth it.

So yes, this is a choice not to upkeep the Infopedia.

So I would not consider a defunct website a source that can be counted on, especially when it contradicts visuals or dialog from the show.

[jaymz]

You mean the gear introduced in the 'making shadow chronicles' section at the back of every issue of prelude, where they showed final production art with annotations alongside interview type articles about creating the film and robotechs new direction?

And I would point out that in the southern cross dialog given earlier, the UE of 'ruptured' suggests physical rather than energy protection. Like perhaps the outer hul of the ship is actually a layer of modular armor shields, held off slightly from a less durable true hull inside. Like a combination antiballistic whipple shield, and the add on/quick replace armor panels some armored vehicles have used since the cold war.

If you are thinking of spaced armour, I'm not sure I would expect that to be called a shield in the context of a space opera/science fiction piece.

Well I would put forth that Battlestar Galactica (Original) which was sci-fi did refer to basically a large armour plate as a shield with dialogue to match when it was "activated" or "deactivated" (positive and negative shield respectively) so armour could actually taken to mean certain armour like plates or structures.

[Seto Kaiba]

Like you said, they recreated Robotech.com, but did not recreate the Infopedia.

They recreated Robotech.com some time ago. If they wanted to recreate the Infopedia they certainly have had ample opportunity to do so. That they haven't indicates that they don't think it's worth it.

The problem with that logic is you're assuming it was a creative choice by the staff... it was, by all accounts, a budgetary decision made by management. Even before the old site went down, the staff frequently excused the lack of updates by indicating management was only interested in maintaining the store. The new site reflects that managerial position and that's all there is to it. Of course, as Robotech is essentially a dead franchise, it's unlikely we'll ever see another official reference like the Infopedia.

So I would not consider a defunct website a source that can be counted on, especially when it contradicts visuals or dialog from the show.

That defunct website is the only resource Harmony Gold ever endorsed as authoritative... and they've been very clear that they do not regard the dialog of the show as entirely reliable.

If it's a choice between an officially-endorsed but unavailable source and one that's been explicitly and officially flagged as unreliable by the creative staff, the choice is obvious if what you're after is accuracy.

[Jefffar]

If it's a choice between an officially-endorsed but unavailable source and one that's been explicitly and officially flagged as unreliable by the creative staff, the choice is obvious if what you're after is accuracy.

But that's not the choice we have.

We have a choice between a currently available primary source (the show) and an unavailable interpretation of that primary source.

Although if officially approved is the gold standard, then we should go with the RPG's information, which was reviewed and approved by Harmony Gold. With the Infopedia not around anymore, it's a current source.

[Lt Gargoyle]

If it's a choice between an officially-endorsed but unavailable source and one that's been explicitly and officially flagged as unreliable by the creative staff, the choice is obvious if what you're after is accuracy.

But that's not the choice we have.

We have a choice between a currently available primary source (the show) and an unavailable interpretation of that primary source.

Although if officially approved is the gold standard, then we should go with the RPG's information, which was reviewed and approved by Harmony Gold. With the Infopedia not around anymore, it's a current source.

this is a RPG, the Primary source for it should be from the RPG books followed by the show. Are they perfect, no. Yes they could use some improvements. I like the Barrier System, and they make sense to maintain the technology and add it to your arsenal. If you need a in game explanation as to why the UEEF fleet did not use them, I give you this thought; The shadow cloaking device and the Barrier System both require a mass amount of power to sustain, so it is a pick and choose between the two. The UEEF figured it be better to be invisible to the Invids sensor then raising a shield which pretty much drains a huge amount of power.

And I have to agree with Jefffar on the HG having had plenty of time to get their site back up. I don't think they really care about the Infopedia and the Forum. the internet has so many more forum dedicated to such things and it does not cost HG a penny to maintain them. they are in the business to sell merchandise to those fans willing to still buy it.

[Seto Kaiba]

We have a choice between a currently available primary source (the show) and an unavailable interpretation of that primary source.

That's actually not the choice we have either, to be frank.

To finesse my earlier point down to the simple, honest truth of it... the choice is between a fan interpretation of a primary source that Robotech's creative staff have explicitly, repeatedly, and on no uncertain terms indicated is not a reliable or definitive source in cases like this, and an official interpretation of that same primary source that is partially unavailable due to some managerial issues outside the creative staff's control and which the 2nd Edition RPG essentially treats as gospel.

Bringing it right back to the point I made in my original post, the reason there are no shields in the Robotech RPG's 2nd Edition is because its stats are based on the official canon stats... in which there are also no shields because Robotech's creative staff don't consider the dialog an infallible source at the best of times, and certainly not when it contradicts the animation.

Although if officially approved is the gold standard, then we should go with the RPG's information, which was reviewed and approved by Harmony Gold. With the Infopedia not around anymore, it's a current source.

Aren't you kind of contradicting yourself? Though not official canon in its own right, the RPG is based principally on the official stats from the Infopedia... which only supports the idea that the Infopedia remains a top tier source credibility-wise.

If you need a in game explanation as to why the UEEF fleet did not use them, I give you this thought; The shadow cloaking device and the Barrier System both require a mass amount of power to sustain, so it is a pick and choose between the two. The UEEF figured it be better to be invisible to the Invids sensor then raising a shield which pretty much drains a huge amount of power.

I'd have to double check, but I don't think they've ever actually presented the shadow field as being something terribly power-intensive the way they've said of the reflex cannon or barrier technology... it'd be surprising if it was, since even Alpha fighters are equipped with shadow field systems with no apparent decrease in performance.

If I were to hazard an educated guess at why barrier systems would not be in widespread use, I'd say it probably has something to do with the technology being poorly understood like so many other aspects of robotechnology and protoculture. The original barrier system on the SDF-1 wasn't human-built in the Robotech version, it was one of the ship's original systems and therefore likely a system humanity only understood how to use rather than how to replicate.

I don't think they really care about the Infopedia and the Forum. the internet has so many more forum dedicated to such things and it does not cost HG a penny to maintain them. they are in the business to sell merchandise to those fans willing to still buy it.

That'd be, as I noted earlier, something the Robotech staff (usually Kevin McKeever) freely admitted on the forums all the time before the site went down... that their management was only really interested in the store, and saw the upkeep on the rest of the site as a distraction or a waste except where it served to drive traffic to the store. (This was often also cited by him as the reason the site was usually the last to post news of new Robotech developments, and also the reason the official Twitter page was created in an effort to sidestep the problem.)

[Lt Gargoyle]

If you need a in game explanation as to why the UEEF fleet did not use them, I give you this thought; The shadow cloaking device and the Barrier System both require a mass amount of power to sustain, so it is a pick and choose between the two. The UEEF figured it be better to be invisible to the Invids sensor then raising a shield which pretty much drains a huge amount of power.

I'd have to double check, but I don't think they've ever actually presented the shadow field as being something terribly power-intensive the way they've said of the reflex cannon or barrier technology... it'd be surprising if it was, since even Alpha fighters are equipped with shadow field systems with no apparent decrease in performance.

If I were to hazard an educated guess at why barrier systems would not be in widespread use, I'd say it probably has something to do with the technology being poorly understood like so many other aspects of robotechnology and protoculture. The original barrier system on the SDF-1 wasn't human-built in the Robotech version, it was one of the ship's original systems and therefore likely a system humanity only understood how to use rather than how to replicate.

There was no mention of the level of power drainage from a shadow device in the movie or any other source I have. But they do say to activate and to deactivate the cloaking devices. So in my games I have them drain power on the mecha faster, cyclones are to small. But on giant capital ships I saw it as a pick and chose. each of these tech devices are gonna take up room on these vessels. and when space is a luxury on a ship, especially a retrofit something is gonna have to give. this was just a GM's thoughts as to why they were not in use.

[eliakon]

I would just like to ask a question here...
How can one claim that the show dialog is NOT accurate, with out an explicit claim from HG that they are saying such.
That is like saying that the show is not being the source for the show?

I know HG is willing to say that there are errors yes. But if there are multiple, repeated uses of the same line over and over again in multiple episodes then it would seem that the show is pretty clear what the intent is. Barring a specific statement from HG that they have formally ruled out energy shields then it is pretty presumptuous of someone to claim that they know what HGs opinion on the matter is.

As for the Infopedia. It was the go to source. Once. That is true. But it is not anymore. Just like the comic books were once a source.
They took it down, and have not put it back up, and more importantly they have since put out official material that contradicts what was on it.
This would suggest that they do not consider the old Infopedia to be the official canon. With out a statement from HG that it is official, then claiming that it is official and that its data is the only source to be used seems to be... well flawed at best.

[Lt Gargoyle]

I would just like to ask a question here...
How can one claim that the show dialog is NOT accurate, with out an explicit claim from HG that they are saying such.
That is like saying that the show is not being the source for the show?

I know HG is willing to say that there are errors yes. But if there are multiple, repeated uses of the same line over and over again in multiple episodes then it would seem that the show is pretty clear what the intent is. Barring a specific statement from HG that they have formally ruled out energy shields then it is pretty presumptuous of someone to claim that they know what HGs opinion on the matter is.

As for the Infopedia. It was the go to source. Once. That is true. But it is not anymore. Just like the comic books were once a source.
They took it down, and have not put it back up, and more importantly they have since put out official material that contradicts what was on it.
This would suggest that they do not consider the old Infopedia to be the official canon. With out a statement from HG that it is official, then claiming that it is official and that its data is the only source to be used seems to be... well flawed at best.

I personally believe that HG, truthfully does not care about the all the little details that the fans nit pick to death. I am sure they are happy we love the show and are willing to spend our money on it and the merchandise from the show. But after that, I think the fans almost OCD attitudes of who is right about this or that has them just saying; here you go enjoy the show and merchandise and it means what you want it to mean. As long as you enjoy it as much as we did getting out for you. In other words, they just don't care about it.

[Seto Kaiba]

There was no mention of the level of power drainage from a shadow device in the movie or any other source I have. But they do say to activate and to deactivate the cloaking devices. So in my games I have them drain power on the mecha faster, cyclones are to small.

I confess I've never cared for the way the first episode of the canceled Shadow Chronicles OVA changed the Shadow Fighter's stealth from passive via a generator design change to active via a cloaking device. How much faster do you have it drain, if you don't mind my asking?

Barrier-wise, I would think that barriers would actually be a problematic thing to have agianst Invid since they aren't polarized shields... when they're up, the enemy can't shoot in but you can't shoot out either. Even more than power drains, a shield that prevents you from fighting back would be almost useless... especially against an enemy where your only real advantage is range. The CIWS guns added to the ships in RTSC seem like a more effective approach for the Invid, if they could actually hit anything. The ship-to-ship combat rules aren't exactly great, being unable to shoot back would be one more major disadvantage for human ships that are already armored with cake and wishful thinking and shooting back with party snaps and roadside stall fireworks.

I personally believe that HG, truthfully does not care about the all the little details that the fans nit pick to death. I am sure they are happy we love the show and are willing to spend our money on it and the merchandise from the show. But after that, I think the fans almost OCD attitudes of who is right about this or that has them just saying; here you go enjoy the show and merchandise and it means what you want it to mean.

Depends who at HG you're talking about, really. If you take Kevin McKeever at face value the Robotech team's bosses are focused pretty much entirely on the merchandise. From my personal experiences with Tommy, I think saying he doesn't care about the little things would be untrue. I think that, unlike many older and more vocal fans, Tommy long since accepted that Robotech was made in a hurry by people who had neither the time nor the inclination to ensure every throwaway remark was consistent and meaningful... and his responses to many of the nagging questions those older fans mull over reflect that. Like how they rejected the Sylphid Veritech, another of those cases where the dialog writes a check the visuals can't cash.

Harmony Gold staffers have said, on forums and Facebook and Twitter that the dialog of Robotech contains numerous errors... but some old fans just aren't prepared to let cherished theories go.

[Tiree]

I personally go with the following in order of precedence:
Original 85 Episodes Visuals
Shadow Chronicles Visuals (includes Prelude)
Robotech Art Books
Original 85 Episodes Audio
Shadow Chronicles Audio
OSM
RPG (items written or cowritten by Jason Marker)
Fan Theories
Fan Stories
Fan Fun Submissions
RPG (Items written or cowritten by Irvin Jackson)

[Lt Gargoyle]

There was no mention of the level of power drainage from a shadow device in the movie or any other source I have. But they do say to activate and to deactivate the cloaking devices. So in my games I have them drain power on the mecha faster, cyclones are to small.

I confess I've never cared for the way the first episode of the canceled Shadow Chronicles OVA changed the Shadow Fighter's stealth from passive via a generator design change to active via a cloaking device. How much faster do you have it drain, if you don't mind my asking?

Barrier-wise, I would think that barriers would actually be a problematic thing to have agianst Invid since they aren't polarized shields... when they're up, the enemy can't shoot in but you can't shoot out either. Even more than power drains, a shield that prevents you from fighting back would be almost useless... especially against an enemy where your only real advantage is range. The CIWS guns added to the ships in RTSC seem like a more effective approach for the Invid, if they could actually hit anything. The ship-to-ship combat rules aren't exactly great, being unable to shoot back would be one more major disadvantage for human ships that are already armored with cake and wishful thinking and shooting back with party snaps and roadside stall fireworks.

If the players use them constantly I have them drain 1/3 faster.

Unless a GM is giving the players command of the capital ship, they are more background. There to enhance the story arc.

I personally believe that HG, truthfully does not care about the all the little details that the fans nit pick to death. I am sure they are happy we love the show and are willing to spend our money on it and the merchandise from the show. But after that, I think the fans almost OCD attitudes of who is right about this or that has them just saying; here you go enjoy the show and merchandise and it means what you want it to mean.

Depends who at HG you're talking about, really. If you take Kevin McKeever at face value the Robotech team's bosses are focused pretty much entirely on the merchandise. From my personal experiences with Tommy, I think saying he doesn't care about the little things would be untrue. I think that, unlike many older and more vocal fans, Tommy long since accepted that Robotech was made in a hurry by people who had neither the time nor the inclination to ensure every throwaway remark was consistent and meaningful... and his responses to many of the nagging questions those older fans mull over reflect that. Like how they rejected the Sylphid Veritech, another of those cases where the dialog writes a check the visuals can't cash.

Harmony Gold staffers have said, on forums and Facebook and Twitter that the dialog of Robotech contains numerous errors... but some old fans just aren't prepared to let cherished theories go.

Well I am not a super big fan of Twitter and i do not even have an account. I hate facebook and only use it to keep family happy and let them know i am still alive.
As for the errors in the dialog and some story lines, they could fix that. Its a animated show, and they could easily re-dub it.

[Lt Gargoyle]

I personally go with the following in order of precedence:
Original 85 Episodes Visuals
Shadow Chronicles Visuals (includes Prelude)
Robotech Art Books
Original 85 Episodes Audio
Shadow Chronicles Audio
OSM
RPG (items written or cowritten by Jason Marker)
Fan Theories
Fan Stories
Fan Fun Submissions
RPG (Items written or cowritten by Irvin Jackson)

Original 85 Episodes
RPG
Robotech Art Books - still waiting for my copy of shadow chronicles to arrive.
Novels - yes I enjoyed the novel and still use trace
Shadow Chronicles Visuals (includes Prelude) - to be honest I did not care for this story arc, and since they have left it to die. I am not gonna use it for
gaming.
OSM
RPG
Fan - I do not use fan material unless it fits my own gaming style and fits my needs.

[ShadowLogan]

We have a choice between a currently available primary source (the show) and an unavailable interpretation of that primary source.

I'm not sure if I would characterize the Infopedia as being unavailable. It can still be found on the web via the Internet Wayback Machine, and one can even dig in deeper and see the evolutionary changes of a given entry over time (ex: the Beta used to be the VF-12, referencing a Condor Veritech, etc).

Of course, as Robotech is essentially a dead franchise, it's unlikely we'll ever see another official reference like the Infopedia.

Of course they could do an official reference source as merchandise. Though I think they'd rather do another rehash release of something else instead based on their track record.

If I were to hazard an educated guess at why barrier systems would not be in widespread use, I'd say it probably has something to do with the technology being poorly understood like so many other aspects of robotechnology and protoculture. The original barrier system on the SDF-1 wasn't human-built in the Robotech version, it was one of the ship's original systems and therefore likely a system humanity only understood how to use rather than how to replicate.

The simplest explanation IMHO is that two field generator effects are simply incompatible. You can't generate a force field (barrier) and the shadow dimensional field shift simultaneously. We know that SDF-1 barrier technologies (Pin Point, Omni-Directional) suffered this in preventing weapons from operating based on dialogue (concerning the Pin-Point), setting precedent for other potential technologies to lack compatibility with it.

and his responses to many of the nagging questions those older fans mull over reflect that. Like how they rejected the Sylphid Veritech, another of those cases where the dialog writes a check the visuals can't cash.

While I agree the dialogue creates a situation that the material can't work with directly (w/n the 85ep visuals itself), that in no way prevents subsequent material from being able to work with it directly (comic, new animation, various gaming types, novels, "artbooks", toys, models, etc) and explore it further in terms of capabilities and such.

and his responses to many of the nagging questions those older fans mull over reflect that. Like how they rejected the Sylphid Veritech, another of those cases where the dialog writes a check the visuals can't cash.

That errors can exist I don't dispute, the question is what is the basis for saying it is an error? I am no fan, as you well know, of using the OSM for information to determine validity of the dialogue (aside from dimensions that it would have been drawn at). If its a dialogue contradicting itself, how to determine which is correct.

Barrier-wise, I would think that barriers would actually be a problematic thing to have agianst Invid since they aren't polarized shields...

Its a toss up really. While we see a handful of Invid mecha used to bring down a capital ship (or more precisely the finishing blow) the barrier itself would require the Invid to expend more mecha to do the same job previously, and depending on the strength of the barrier they might even be able to outlast the Invid.

It should also be noted that Omni-Directional Barrier overloads turn the defensive system into an offensive system. Now if you could find a way to manage the overload so it doesn't destroy the system itself (and section/s of the ship) and maybe even shaped to release in a given direction... Dialogue from the Masters also establishes that Robotech Barriers are capable of being inverted.

So a non-polarized shield as you characterize it might not be so bad, if it is done correctly and we look at the dialogue for features it could potentially possess.

[Jefffar]

The infopedia itself is unavailable. Historical records of its contents can still be found via the way back machine, cached copies, printouts, etc.

[eliakon]

Harmony Gold staffers have said, on forums and Facebook and Twitter that the dialog of Robotech contains numerous errors... but some old fans just aren't prepared to let cherished theories go.

No one questions that. We know that there are errors.
But what I am questioning here is your stance that this is obviously one of those errors.
Has there ever been an actual statement from HG that they consider shields/barriers to be one of those errors, or are you simply voicing your "cherished theory" that they do not exist and that all references to them in the show are all in error?
This is rather important, because if HG has canonically jossed it, then we can say "okay, its jossed" if HG has never addressed it though, then the lines in the show would still be presumptively correct until such time as HG rules them as being in error (as the show is considered to be correct when it does not conflict with anything else... and absent a canon statement that such shields do NOT exist, then it is not in conflict)

[ShadowLogan]

Question to Consider when houseruling in shields and such:
The Pin Point Barrier System may be unreproducible (or very "expensive") given dialogue in the show that at its core is supposed to be "space time fabric was distorted" by the loss of the Fold drives producing a "strange reaction", so Pin Point Barrier technology might require that space-time fabric distortion to be viable, unlike the other barrier technologies. Using up Fold Drives could get "expensive" if you don't have the PC or ability to build new ones.

[mech798]

I'd go with shields being "black box" tech that humanity can't replicate, because it is a lot easier than trying to explain why X ship doesn't have it.

[Seto Kaiba]

Question to Consider when houseruling in shields and such:
The Pin Point Barrier System may be unreproducible (or very "expensive") given dialogue in the show that at its core is supposed to be "space time fabric was distorted" by the loss of the Fold drives producing a "strange reaction", so Pin Point Barrier technology might require that space-time fabric distortion to be viable, unlike the other barrier technologies. Using up Fold Drives could get "expensive" if you don't have the PC or ability to build new ones.

Actually, that may be why they're not present in UEDF and UEEF ships.

Per AotSC, humanity wasn't able to reliably reproduce technology like fold drives until a good while after the UEEF had left and had to use salvaged drives a lot of the time. They may simply be unable to reproduce the technology with enough precision to reliably produce the same effect, or at least were at the time the UEEF's ships were built.

[glitterboy2098]

i could see the UEEF being able to duplicate the master's shield systems by the 2040's, but the tech may not have been adopted due to the difficulty of refitting their existing ships in the 2030's, and the advent of shadow devices in the 2040's. (i would presume the technology would not be compatible, since it would be in the haydonite's advantage if it isn't)

http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg

the tech may have been too power intensive for the earth built ships of the UEEF, and i suspect the Master's would have engineered zentraedi ships to not be able to use them for purposes of control.

we only see these shields in use by the Motherships, but not any of the smaller ships. which suggests that either the projectors are really bulky or more probably, require immense power. (which would also explain why the Master's stop using them part way through the war.. right around the time they start getting really concerned over their protoculture supply)

[ShadowLogan]

Actually, that may be why they're not present in UEDF and UEEF ships.

Per AotSC, humanity wasn't able to reliably reproduce technology like fold drives until a good while after the UEEF had left and had to use salvaged drives a lot of the time. They may simply be unable to reproduce the technology with enough precision to reliably produce the same effect, or at least were at the time the UEEF's ships were built.

That is why I said it could be "very expensive" to replicate the Pin Point Barrier Technology. Currently in Robotech the only way to produce the anomaly at the heart of the PPB system according to the dialogue would appear to be to sacrifice fold generators that they can't replace at the moment (which doesn't hold up*). Unless of course the anomaly isn't actually required (though Lang said the reaction was to be utilized, but that could be taken/twisted in a few ways to disconnect it).

That explains why Pin Point Barriers aren't used, but other barrier types aren't so easy to explain since the SDF-1 developed two barrier systems, the masters ID a possible 3rd (which might just be Omni-Barrier). The SDF-1 was also able to rebuild the Omni barrier too given some of the equipment was destroyed when it overloaded over Ontario Quadrant. That means that Earth by the end of TMS had the ability to build new barrier systems (the SDF-1 barrier supposedly was operational in Ep36 given Khyron's dialogue, there just wasn't enough power available after firing the main gun).

The most likely answers though that Omni-type barriers:
-might just be to energy intensive for visible effect shields** on anything with smaller output than the SDF-1 (presumably there could be some margin to play with) or whatever had the smallest output with visible shields (most likely the SDF-1)
-might be too passive for the UEDF/UEEF given it prevents them from firing weapon systems which might be a more effective method of dealing with a situation than trying to out last your enemy.

*Incidentally doesn't the Fold Drive thing make no sense when you consider that if they (UEDF/UEEF) have captured Robotech Factor Satellites that are reported to be able to build new ships (Zentreadi ships) that they should be able to work out how to duplicate the technology? After all the RFS captured in the series was said to be building ships, ships that would need Fold Drives to get to Earth. I suppose the RFS might not manufacture the Fold Drives and instead import them, but then the question is where are they imported from and why hasn't the UEEF found them by now (they occupy Tirol by '2044').

**non visible effect shields are also suggested in dialogue in several places. Of course this line gets in to the whole issue of how much weight one wants to give to the dialogue and requires being on the same page (or close to it), which we are not.

[eliakon]

Episode #47 Outsiders
Major Carpenter: Damage report!
Bridge Crewman: Sir, our defense shields are ruptured and primary starboard thrusters have been completely neutralized.
......
Executive Officer: Sir, shields are completely down. We could blow apart at any time.

This got me thinking
What if one of the reasons that we don't see the shields stated is that they are a sort of "Hull Integrity Field" like in Star Trek. Aka they are folded into the general Main Body MDC of the ship. Just like we don't have the MDC of the armor, separated from the struts, separated from that of the rivits... its all folded into one "main body".
if the lesser "integrity style shields" get folded into that...

Where as the Pin Point Barrier and Omni Barrier didn't get stats because, frankly, they are more or less plot devices and not systems per se. Its kind of like there are no stats for most of the various one-time-and-done super weapons that are used through out the show.

[ShadowLogan]

Where as the Pin Point Barrier and Omni Barrier didn't get stats because, frankly, they are more or less plot devices and not systems per se. Its kind of like there are no stats for most of the various one-time-and-done super weapons that are used through out the show.

The PPB and ODB are hardly one-time and done systems. The ODB is used x2 ("Bursting Point" IIRC, "Force of Arms"), the PPB is used at least twice ("Blitzkrieg", "Force of Arms", it might also have been seen in "Homecoming" and episodes that feature the Deadulus Attack not mentioned), nor are the Masters or Invid Shields one-time and done either and these last two cases actually HAVE MDC stats for the Flagship (Masters SB) and Invid Hive (NG SB).

In all likely hood the reason the SDF-1 did not have them in the stat block, is because PB intended to do a spaceships book at the time of writing that hasn't materialized. Then again in 1E, the SDF-1 never had its shields stated out (SDF-3 and some REF ships in Sentinels did).

[eliakon]

Where as the Pin Point Barrier and Omni Barrier didn't get stats because, frankly, they are more or less plot devices and not systems per se. Its kind of like there are no stats for most of the various one-time-and-done super weapons that are used through out the show.

The PPB and ODB are hardly one-time and done systems. The ODB is used x2 ("Bursting Point" IIRC, "Force of Arms"), the PPB is used at least twice ("Blitzkrieg", "Force of Arms", it might also have been seen in "Homecoming" and episodes that feature the Deadulus Attack not mentioned), nor are the Masters or Invid Shields one-time and done either and these last two cases actually HAVE MDC stats for the Flagship (Masters SB) and Invid Hive (NG SB).

In all likely hood the reason the SDF-1 did not have them in the stat block, is because PB intended to do a spaceships book at the time of writing that hasn't materialized. Then again in 1E, the SDF-1 never had its shields stated out (SDF-3 and some REF ships in Sentinels did).

That is a good point too
If the stats we got in the base book are 'stubs' instead of full write ups, then yeah... they would be missing a lot of stuff, and only have the "most important material". Which could easily result in the PPB and ODB being sacrificed on the altar of Page Count with the intent of "oh well, we can always get that in the Spaceships book"

[Jefffar]

I'm trying to recall if the shield's of the USS Enterprise were ever visible on screen in the original Star Trek or merely referenced in dialog.

But that is aside the point. There was to be a detailed write-up of all the spaceships coming in a dedicated book that never got published. Perhaps the quick write ups in the previous books were missing those details because they were interim pending the full write up. It certainly makes sense, thank you Eli.

[glitterboy2098]

i think that Eli has a point when he calls the SDF-1's Pinpoint and full barrier shield "plot devices"
they don't really need hard stats, because they literally are going to take as much damage as the GM requires them to take. at best the GM would need to wing a percentage chance to roll against whether the pinpoint barrier disks can be moved into place in time to block a given shot.

the full barrier can basically be summed up as "will absorb all incoming attacks until the Gm decides it is dramatic enough or plot relevant enough that it should explode" and the level of devastation of an overload is such that the GM can pretty much wing that too.


the only shield systems i can see needing actual MDC stats are the invid hive shields (which we have), and maybe the robotech master's "hexagon shields" on the motherships. since those evidently can be brought down by barrages of mecha weaponry, though they can be re-erected again fairly quickly.

[guardiandashi]

i think that Eli has a point when he calls the SDF-1's Pinpoint and full barrier shield "plot devices"
they don't really need hard stats, because they literally are going to take as much damage as the GM requires them to take. at best the GM would need to wing a percentage chance to roll against whether the pinpoint barrier disks can be moved into place in time to block a given shot.

the full barrier can basically be summed up as "will absorb all incoming attacks until the Gm decides it is dramatic enough or plot relevant enough that it should explode" and the level of devastation of an overload is such that the GM can pretty much wing that too.


the only shield systems i can see needing actual MDC stats are the invid hive shields (which we have), and maybe the robotech master's "hexagon shields" on the motherships. since those evidently can be brought down by barrages of mecha weaponry, though they can be re-erected again fairly quickly.

in robotech 1st edition the pinpoint barrier shields had 2 ratings on the SDF-3
the DS-2 pin point barrier had 4 "movable disks" that had 5000 MDC and regenerated fully every 4 seconds, each operator controls 1 disk, and all 4 are required to successfully parry a heavy particle beam attack off a Zentradi flagship, robotech mothership, or the SDF's reflex cannon.

the DS-1 full barrier shield had 60,000 MDC and regenerated 10,000 /hour,

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm trying to recall if the shield's of the USS Enterprise were ever visible on screen in the original Star Trek or merely referenced in dialog.

Unfortunately, the bloody TOS 2.0 version has replaced the original broadcast cut online so it's hard to confirm that... but they WERE visible in the movies, at least three of which had come out when Robotech was being written.

But that is aside the point. There was to be a detailed write-up of all the spaceships coming in a dedicated book that never got published. Perhaps the quick write ups in the previous books were missing those details because they were interim pending the full write up. It certainly makes sense, thank you Eli.

Actually, the way it's been done it doesn't make much sense... the SDF-1's pinpoint barrier is the one shield we're definitively shown collapsing under enemy fire, and not an inordinately huge amount of enemy fire at that. You'd think that'd merit coverage, but the only shield to get MDC stats was the Invid force field that the UEEF's Shadow Fighters could poke holes in but couldn't damage... which should be one of the ones left without stats as a plot device.

[eliakon]

I'm trying to recall if the shield's of the USS Enterprise were ever visible on screen in the original Star Trek or merely referenced in dialog.

Unfortunately, the bloody TOS 2.0 version has replaced the original broadcast cut online so it's hard to confirm that... but they WERE visible in the movies, at least three of which had come out when Robotech was being written.

That would not really be relevant though would it?
The point is that the claim that "if a shield is not seen then it doesn't exist" is not something that stands up to even the slightest scrutiny. And moving the goal posts won't help that.

But that is aside the point. There was to be a detailed write-up of all the spaceships coming in a dedicated book that never got published. Perhaps the quick write ups in the previous books were missing those details because they were interim pending the full write up. It certainly makes sense, thank you Eli.

Actually, the way it's been done it doesn't make much sense... the SDF-1's pinpoint barrier is the one shield we're definitively shown collapsing under enemy fire, and not an inordinately huge amount of enemy fire at that.

Your definition of "not inordinately huge" seems to be calibrated differently than mine. I can't recall off hand... can someone remind me how many (miles long) ships did it take firing for how long to overload the shield?

You'd think that'd merit coverage, but the only shield to get MDC stats was the Invid force field that the UEEF's Shadow Fighters could poke holes in but couldn't damage... which should be one of the ones left without stats as a plot device.

We actually don't know if they couldn't damage it. Or am I missing a canon statement someplace that said that? After all having a disrupter that can put a hole in something does not mean you can not harm it other wise. Just that you have a way of poking a hole in it that doesn't require bringing down the shield...
...and since as we saw with the ODB taking down a shield can sometimes require sustained bombardment by multiple capitol ships that is not always exactly the most convenient.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm trying to recall if the shield's of the USS Enterprise were ever visible on screen in the original Star Trek or merely referenced in dialog.

Unfortunately, the bloody TOS 2.0 version has replaced the original broadcast cut online so it's hard to confirm that... but they WERE visible in the movies, at least three of which had come out when Robotech was being written.

It is possible to get the originals with the Blue-Ray Remastered (IINM), and maybe the "Fan Collective" series. There is one part of the remastered version that I've read did not get any treatment: End Credits. If that is true, it is possible that one or more "end stills" exist though off hand I can't think of any to appear.

However I don't remember the shields of TOS being visually displayed like in TNG-forward, even on the remaster. What about the animated series from '73?

Another Sci-Fi Movie franchise to consider is: Star Wars. All 3 original trilogy movies where out by then... And they did have deflector shields (invisible variety to, I don't think it was until the prequels that changed)

Actually, the way it's been done it doesn't make much sense... the SDF-1's pinpoint barrier is the one shield we're definitively shown collapsing under enemy fire, and not an inordinately huge amount of enemy fire at that. You'd think that'd merit coverage, but the only shield to get MDC stats was the Invid force field that the UEEF's Shadow Fighters could poke holes in but couldn't damage... which should be one of the ones left without stats as a plot device.

The Omni-Barrier of the SDF-1 could be seen as collapsing to, though in a different manner than the PPB and that was with only 5 ships (one of which wasn't at full strength since Khyron lost the forward section of his command ship).

Actually the 2E RPG also covered the Masters Mothership's snowflake shield in the MDC by Location and in the Systems of note. They don't give a hard number for how many the ship has (just dozens), but they do establish the shield has #### of MDC.

I always took the UEEF destablizers on the Shadow Fighters to be a fast acting "breach" method instead of a slower "demolition" method like that the UEDF tried against the Masters (and the Zentreadi used against the SDF-1) shields. The Invid Hive Shield though depending on its regeneration rate and size/composition of the attacking force could work out to being "impenetrable" under normal circumstances.

That would not really be relevant though would it?
The point is that the claim that "if a shield is not seen then it doesn't exist" is not something that stands up to even the slightest scrutiny. And moving the goal posts won't help that.

Given that influences of the series (and not just Star Trek) could have an influence on the people writing RT it is relevant, though not directly. What it could do is help set precedent in how shields could be depicted, it might not be uniform across all shows/media and production periods. It's really irrelevant to look to post 85ep RT media, but pre-85ep RT media could have an influence on the script writing.