Dodges and Combat Clairification

[jlm2924]

Greetings fellow Heroes Unlimited Gamers! Today I would like to ask you good people on some clarifications Regarding Multiple Dodge.

Okay so from Ninjas & Superspies it says:

Multiple Dodge is the ability to Dodge all incoming attacks, no
matter where they're coming from. In other words, it's effective
even against rear attacks.

So the way it normally works without Multiple Dodge is:

Superguy is fighting a group of 4 bank robbers. 3 are engaging him in HTH, and one is 30 feet away shooting. Superguy has HTH Martial Arts. All 3 bad guys go after he does.

So: Bad Guy 1 rolls an 18
Bad Guy 2 rolls an 12
Bad Guy 3 rolls an 14
Bad Shooter rolls a 15

Superguy needs to choose ONE opponent and roll to dodge against THAT opponent. The other 3 hit.

Would it work like this if say Superguy had MIEN-CH'UAN — COTTON FIST KUNG FU (Which gives Multiple Dodge):

So: Bad Guy 1 rolls an 18
Bad Guy 2 rolls an 12
Bad Guy 3 rolls an 14
Bad Shooter rolls a 15

He can spend (1) action for each dodge but he can attempt to dodge them all. So in turn to dodge them he spends (4) attacks (at our table we call them actions as dodges are not attacks)?

[wolfsgrin]

Total house rule but it has worked well at my table.
First, any perceived attack can be attempted by a defender. So if somebody attacks from behind the defender must know its coming.
If a character doesn't posses the Multiple Dodge skill, then the character must roll a dodge for each incoming attack, using an attack/action for each attack against him.
If the character possesses Multiple Dodge, he rolls once or them at the cost of one attack. Seems overpowering but high rolls usually force a character to use a different method of dodging.
And a dodge in my games takes your next attack in the initiative order
Hope that helps. Not canon but it has helped combat flow well at my table

[fbdaury]

Greetings fellow Heroes Unlimited Gamers! Today I would like to ask you good people on some clarifications Regarding Multiple Dodge.

Okay so from Ninjas & Superspies it says:

Multiple Dodge is the ability to Dodge all incoming attacks, no
matter where they're coming from. In other words, it's effective
even against rear attacks.

So the way it normally works without Multiple Dodge is:

Superguy is fighting a group of 4 bank robbers. 3 are engaging him in HTH, and one is 30 feet away shooting. Superguy has HTH Martial Arts. All 3 bad guys go after he does.

So: Bad Guy 1 rolls an 18
Bad Guy 2 rolls an 12
Bad Guy 3 rolls an 14
Bad Shooter rolls a 15

Superguy needs to choose ONE opponent and roll to dodge against THAT opponent. The other 3 hit.

Would it work like this if say Superguy had MIEN-CH'UAN — COTTON FIST KUNG FU (Which gives Multiple Dodge):

So: Bad Guy 1 rolls an 18
Bad Guy 2 rolls an 12
Bad Guy 3 rolls an 14
Bad Shooter rolls a 15

He can spend (1) action for each dodge but he can attempt to dodge them all. So in turn to dodge them he spends (4) attacks (at our table we call them actions as dodges are not attacks)?

Actually, The hero could use Parry automatically against the three HtH attacks and then use an active action to dodge the shooter's attack. But, alternatively, the hero could choose to dodge each attack separately, chewing up one melee action PER dodge to do so. So no, three of the 4 attacks do not automatically hit the hero. There is also a difference in the wording of Dodge in (at least the older printings) of N&SS that states that any attacks leveled at a hero at the same time may ALL be dodged with one Dodge action as long as the hero is aware of the attack (N&SS p.129)- this seems to be different than the description of Dodge in HU2nd which does not indicate the same ability (Hu2nds p.63).

[say652]

I allow dodges vs all attacks except suprise, missile volley and Attacks a Dodge isn't applicable to.

[Axelmania]

Greetings fellow Heroes Unlimited Gamers! Today I would like to ask you good people on some clarifications Regarding Multiple Dodge.

Okay so from Ninjas & Superspies it says:

Multiple Dodge is the ability to Dodge all incoming attacks, no
matter where they're coming from. In other words, it's effective
even against rear attacks.

So the way it normally works without Multiple Dodge is:

Superguy is fighting a group of 4 bank robbers. 3 are engaging him in HTH, and one is 30 feet away shooting. Superguy has HTH Martial Arts. All 3 bad guys go after he does.

So: Bad Guy 1 rolls an 18
Bad Guy 2 rolls an 12
Bad Guy 3 rolls an 14
Bad Shooter rolls a 15

Superguy needs to choose ONE opponent and roll to dodge against THAT opponent. The other 3 hit.

Would it work like this if say Superguy had MIEN-CH'UAN — COTTON FIST KUNG FU (Which gives Multiple Dodge):

So: Bad Guy 1 rolls an 18
Bad Guy 2 rolls an 12
Bad Guy 3 rolls an 14
Bad Shooter rolls a 15

He can spend (1) action for each dodge but he can attempt to dodge them all. So in turn to dodge them he spends (4) attacks (at our table we call them actions as dodges are not attacks)?

If you're using the dodge from ninjas and superspies, 1 roll can contest every single attack made at you during that turn. It's basically like automatic dodge except you pay a melee attack every turn to keep it active and can spend that attack after the fact instead of ahead of time.

(incidentally, automatic dodges in Ninjas and Superspies cost your first melee attack of the round to prepare for, unlike HU)

"Multiple" simply extends that to rear attacks, it's badly named. That's a better term for how the basic dodge works in ninjas and superspies while 'circular' (see circular parry) better describes being able to defend against attacks from all directions.

[jlm2924]

I do appreciate all the input you good folks have provided. What we play is Heroes Unlimited and I allow for Martial Arts from Rifter 7 or Ninjas and Superspies.

One of my players has Multiple Dodge and as the "Rules" on Auto Dodge are a little confusing, first action and all?, I tend to house rule that:

Auto Dodge: Can be used in the place of dodge but at the Auto Dodge bonus only (this tends to be lower). As per the normal rules a player may ONLY attempt one dodge, unless he has Multiple Dodge of which he needs to burn an action.

This is a more realistic Example:

The PC's break through the 39th floor window of the Omni-Security Corp Tower. Omni personnel were already aware of the incoming heroes and have an armed security detail set-up. As soon as the PC's enter it looks like this:

*Everyone Roll Initiative*
Dino - I got 23
Thia - I have 22
Bad Guys - They have 17
Alex - I have a 16.

"Okay guys, Dino, you're up..."

Dino: "I use my spell and teleport the target back to the ship. Since I already put my flight up /before/ we got here, I jump out the window."

*Nods* "Okay guys The mage just bailed on you guys ..."

<The party grumbles, Dino's player laughs>

"Thia, you're up..."

She smiles (being the party Tank and totally Invulnerable) "I run for the first group of bag guys, then I POWER STOMP EM!!!!" This spends (2) actions, one for move and one for an attack of her pool of 8. She rolls her attack and scores a Nat 20!!! I roll for the bad guys and get a 1!!! This's player stands up and does a cheer. She calculates out the damage and exclaims, "140 SDC DAMAGE"

I sigh and state, "The 4 bad guys in your area EXPLODE!" She continues dancing....

I now state "It's the 4 remaining bad guys turn: <rolls dice> 1 bad guy shoots at Thia, and the three bad guys who are 70 feet away all fire short bursts at Alex."

Bad guy 1 shooting at Thia: Does it matter, she's invulnerable. She NEVER dodges, so that guy is her next target. I hear her giggling like a school girl ready to reap destruction on the bad guys!!!!

Bad guy 2 rolls: 16 in total
Bad guy 3 rolls: 21 in total
Bad guy 4 rolls: 19 in total

Alex has multiple dodge: Alex rolls against them all and dodges 2 of them and the 16 is at the AR of his armor so his armor soaks the shot. FYI, I rolled four 1's for the damage so his armor took a measly 8 points of damage <pfft>. At least I made him spend 3 actions.

I look over and say, "Alex, you're up."

Alex's player says, "I fire a short burst at one of the remaining bad guys with my assault rifle." He rolls the dice and scores a 19+6 totaling a 25, which is a crit for his character. I counter roll and the bad guy totals a 4 (with dodge penalties at -8 for the range and no bonuses. Remember guns are deadly in Palladium). Alex resolves the damage ... 20 (x4) = 80. He mortally wounds a bad guy, that guy is on the ground and out of the fight, he is at 0 HPs and -5 comatose.

TOP of the Order ...

"Thia ... you're up..."

Thia's player, "Okay, so I move across the room and I super stomp the remaining bad guys!" She spends (2) actions and hits the guys in a line rolling a total of 25!!! Oh yea and her nat 19 is a crit for her. She starts giggling and rolls her damage. Oh look, only 80 damage, wait make that 160!!!

"Okay so the remaining bad guys and the guy in a coma explode! The fight's over!""



So now friends you see what I am up against. I do love these characters but normal dudes, even Para-military guys are no match. So I have some super guys (Thank-you Negate Super Power major) coming up next time!

[Axelmania]

As per the normal rules a player may ONLY attempt one dodge, unless he has Multiple Dodge of which he needs to burn an action.

The rules don't state that anywhere, multiple dodge is a strangely named ability which, if you read how it operates in N&SS, is basically just a normal dodge that works against attacks coming from above/behind that you normally can't avoid with a normal dodge.

It should be called a circular dodge, since that's how the 'circular parry' operates in respect to a normal parry.

The basic 'Dodge' of Ninjas and Superspies is 1 roll vs unlimited attacks made toward you at that turn.

Meaning that even without auto-dodge, if you roll a 15, it will count against 10 guys full-bursting uzis at you from the front/sides who only roll 5-15 to strike.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Realistically, if you dodge one attack you don't have time to dodge them all without multiple dodge. If you move in a direction to dodge one attack you would be leaning into another attack from a different foe. To say you use a different action to dodge each would not work because of the time involved. Just because foes are attacking on different turns does not mean that you would have the time to dodge each. At least, that's how I see it.

[jlm2924]

Exactly. Under the use of Multiple Dodge it states that each time you dodge it uses (1) attack action. This makes sense because a character is only so fast in a melee round (15 seconds).

As for gun fire, remember in nearly all cases it is a raw unmodified dice roll to defense (no bonuses). So in the example of a group of guys all shooting uzi's at our hero, if the hero doesn't have multiple dodge then he selects one target to dodge. He rolls against the strike and if he succeeds then he dodges the one blast. But the others hit (provided they rolled a 5 or better on the dice). So in that scenario he gets turned to Swiss cheese!

Same scenario, but our hero has multiple dodge, now he rolls against each attacker and uses (1) attack action per attempt. So in the above scenario if our hero has (8) actions/melee and he needs to try to dodge say 6 guys firing Uzi's at him then he has to spend (6) actions with Multiple Dodge. The same rules apply, raw unmodified dice roll only with any range penalties.

So thanks to all the input, I am sure that I have Multiple dodge down. Where I get a little fuzzy is Auto Dodge. The rules state that Auto Dodge has to be your first action in that melee? That sounds absurd.

So is it saying: Bad guy wins initiative and swings a base ball bat at our hero. Since this use of Auto Dodge is his first action he can use it?

What if our hero (above) wins initiative and punches the bad guy with the bat, but fails to knock him out. Now the bad guy swings, he can't use his Auto Dodge anymore? If this is the case this is ridiculous. The way I see Auto-dodge is muscle-memory reflexive actions. So for example: anyone who has ever take any kind of Martial Arts and achieved a belt or two will understand that you will react without thinking about it. This is how I see Auto Dodge. Thoughts?

[Axelmania]

That just isn't how dodge or multiple dodge work in ninjas and superspies.

You at most only have to dodge 1 time per turn. That dodge works against all attacks you can perceive (to the front and sides).

Multiple Dodge simply changes that to include attacks from above/behind which you can't perceive.

in the example of a group of guys all shooting uzi's at our hero, if the hero doesn't have multiple dodge then he selects one target to dodge. He rolls against the strike and if he succeeds then he dodges the one blast. But the others hit

Page 129 of Ninjas and Superspies has a "DODGE ILLUSTRATION" showing Kajo dodging gunfire, but he does so using normal Dodges.

His "two other kinds of Dodges" are only brought up in the third paragraph.

His "little bit cagey" aspect in the 4th paragraph involves using the first melee attack to turn on Auto-Dodge for the round (he has to pay that attack even if he never ends up dodging at all) but having the option to use Multiple Dodge if someone is behind him.

In N&S, Automatic Dodge only functioned as a normal Dodge in that it can't be used against attacks from behind.