Mecha cargo haulers

[glitterboy2098]

i was re-reading the piloting skills for the RPG recently, in order to answer some questions in another thread, and i noticed something. the Mecha: Pilot battloids skill (in both the RT:tSC RPG and the repint in the Master's Saga sourcebook), says;
"Knowledge of and training to pilot all non-transforming humanoid shaped mecha including the bioroid interceptor, Condor, cargo haulers, Old-style destroids, and similar mecha"
the Master's saga reprint, Mecha: Pilot ASC Battloids, says "Knowledge and training to pilot all non-transformable humanoid shaped mecha deployed by the ASC. Also includes cargo haulers, old-style destroids, and similar mecha"

in both cases "cargo haulers" are specifically listed as examples of non-transforming humanoid style mecha.

so the question is, just what are these cargo haulers, given we do not have any examples in the RPG so far, and the show certainly never gave us any on screen.

my inclination would be to assume a spinoff of the old destroids. imagine a Defender destroid, only instead of a radar and the gun-arms, it mounts a pair of cranes to it's shoulders. such a vehicle could act as a mobile crane for construction and the loading/unloading of cargo, and with the right attachments to the cranes, could use it's arms to lift and carry Intermodal containers. (especially if the cranes can be shifted to extend both to the front and the rear)

i could also see something closer to an ASC battloid in size, looking more like the Powerloader in Aliens but piloted instead of worn. such a vehicle would be more useful for smaller containers, like the Bicon, Tricon, and quadcon containers used by the military since the 70's.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I think the best examples of what said 'Cargo Haulers' can be is not found in any of the RT animations, but in the series Patlabor. With their Labor mecha that can be specialized for firefighting, heavy construction, farming,….even as sports cars (the cars sort of transform…).

In US media the only one I can think of off the top on my head is the power loader from Aliens.

[glitterboy2098]

Patlabor is certainly an interesting show, though it's premises don't mesh the greatest with robotech.

i kinda wish Jason Marker still posted to the forums on a regular basis, so i could ask him what he'd had in mind when writing those passages.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yep it is not a good fit for the basic reasons that in RT the military is the primary users of the Humanoid Robot mecha and the civilian uses would be a secondary market. And in the Patlabor series (&movies) the is an open market pattern where the primary users are the civilians and the military is the secondary users.

Then there is the size of the mecha. The RT mecha are much taller then the Labors.
And the Labors were a 'near term' sci-fi show, not a 'alien tech' sci-fi show.

[taalismn]

I was GOING to say I could imagine a Regult-based IMU with a forklift assembly on the front, but then I realized that with those backward-bending legs, the whole thing would be looking to nosedive if carrying any great weight that far forward....

[glitterboy2098]

on the other hand, a Regult is big enough on the inside that if you switched to a human scale cockpit, you could probably load a lot of cargo inside.

[jaymz]

Then there is the size of the mecha. The RT mecha are much taller then the Labors.
And the Labors were a 'near term' sci-fi show, not a 'alien tech' sci-fi show.

Actually they are bigger than ASC battloids and almost the size of an Alpha. The Ingram is about 8m tall.

[glitterboy2098]

you know, thinking on it, would a regult IMU using a human scale cockpit use the pilot battloids or pilot zentreadi ground mecha skill?
because i'm wondering if maybe you could scrap the egg-torso thing, and install a large flat platform ontop of the legs/hip assembly, and use that to haul cargo around. like a semi-truck with legs. would certainly be a use for all those zentreadi pods the UEDF would be salvaging from the downed ships (and those ones the factory sat was (mostly) building prior to it being refit to work on human stuff.

alternately, finding a use for the functional parts of the regult production line. drivetrain and leg structure, with new torso design and 'humanized' leg armor aesthetics.

i suspect you could haul half a dozen 20ft Intermodal's on top of a regult's drivetrain with the right design

[taalismn]

you know, thinking on it, would a regult IMU using a human scale cockpit use the pilot battloids or pilot zentreadi ground mecha skill?
because i'm wondering if maybe you could scrap the egg-torso thing, and install a large flat platform ontop of the legs/hip assembly, and use that to haul cargo around. like a semi-truck with legs. would certainly be a use for all those zentreadi pods the UEDF would be salvaging from the downed ships (and those ones the factory sat was (mostly) building prior to it being refit to work on human stuff.

alternately, finding a use for the functional parts of the regult production line. drivetrain and leg structure, with new torso design and 'humanized' leg armor aesthetics.

i suspect you could haul half a dozen 20ft Intermodal's on top of a regult's drivetrain with the right design

Yeah, I always figured that Regult lower half assemblies would make good mobile gantries, as long as you also imported over their stabilization systems. Renember my Ostrich IMU? That was assembled from Regult utility work conversions.
The fact that they can kneel down to ground level makes them easier to load up too, and as you wouldn't be using them to run high speed, or leap, or jet-thrust, or fire energy weapons, you could possibly install a lower-powered alternative powerplant(which would also limit the 'mech's use to any Malcontents wanting to use them as combat mecha).

[glitterboy2098]

like say a SLMH fueled turbine engine, the sort used by destroids as a backup powerplant.

[tobefrnk]

Macross Delta showcased a Worker style Destroid (Workroid) that can carry two of those smaller cargo pods mention above. It looks like a modified Cheyenne Destroid with lifter arms instead of cannons, so the ideas of modifying a previous Destroid model are not without merit given the Macross viewpoint.

[ShadowLogan]

so the question is, just what are these cargo haulers, given we do not have any examples in the RPG so far, and the show certainly never gave us any on screen.

In FIRST EDITION there was the ML-3 Forklift (RT2:S pg110) and TCH-4 (RT2:S pg109-10). They aren't full humanoid style mecha, at best they are "centaurs" with their robot limbs though more likely "half-tracks" (given centaurs IMHO would be creature/creature type fusions). The TCH-4 also mentions that Destroid Pilot OCC gets special bonuses (note it is presented as the OCC itself and not because of skills).

I bring up the 1E examples for a few reasons:
1. one or both are part of the show itself IIRC (purely background) and not Sentinels inventions but not covered in 2E AFAIK. So this might have had some influence
2. given both have robotic limbs, it is worth considering how "humanoid" you have to be to qualify for the skill. Would a "half-track" version qualify, what about a "centaur"? Humans in 2E have 1 "half-track" (EVRP-1 Spiderbug in TMS SB pg112-3) so setting some precedent. Non-bipedal designs appear to be alien only currently IINM.
3. Would operation of humanoid robotic arm articulation be covered by any skill outside of mecha operation at the moment IMHO?
3. should also consider just what they mean by "cargo haulers", is it "truck/train/boat" type hauling or more "forklift/crane" type hauling? Or is it both? IMHO, this information can tell us what they might look like.

The Phalanx Destroid's Derringer Missile Bins could form the basis of cargo hauling too. I know I did some figuring for specific IMUs (original frankenmecha thread) that might be applicable years back in terms of volume, and we know the bins themselves can support at minimum a given weight (22,000lbs each) though how much surplus is in those limbs ... That weight can probably be increased if you don't want an enclosed bin either. Not sure how applicable they are to other mecha shoulders either. So you could have a modified Phalanx walk up to a raised platform to unload (semi-trucks do this essentially when they pull up to a dock in a warehouse). For UEEF operations, I'd probably modify a Condor (or use the Phalanx-like unit in UEEF Marines).

The ASC might have something based on the VHT Hovertank's Gladiator/Tank mode, now this is a mecha that one could easily throw a platform on. Though depending on the type of cargo hauling might use the Arblast or Janissary Command Vehicle with nt-Battloid upper bodies mated to them, more applicable for "forklift" work than "truck" like the VHT.

In 2E the closest "humanoid" mecha that qualifies is actually Zentreadi (Recovery Pod pg205-6), though I'm not sure how "humanoid" it actually is given the "spikes" as "legs" aspect. The Show also has the Masters using an EVA "work pod", and Sentinels Animation also has a AHR-15 Phantom variant (though how "canon" is it). Neither of the last two have anything like legs, but they do have arm-limbs.

The Imai Files also had a mecha that could likely be adapted for "cargo hauling", it might have been adapted to UEEF Marines (don't have the book, IMAI referred to it as a "Daniel", though a RT Wiki w/o images suggests it might be the "Walker Battloid"). I doubt though this was on anyone's mind when 2e RT's main book was written though.

you know, thinking on it, would a regult IMU using a human scale cockpit use the pilot battloids or pilot zentreadi ground mecha skill?

If the human scale cockpit is derived from a human mecha Battloid would be appropriate, but if it wasn't Zentreadi might be appropriate (off hand I forget if the series proper had a conversion kit for some of the defectors, I know for a fact it gets mentioned in the novel version) though battloid could also be used with alien penalties (at least IMHO until you get familiar with them).

[taalismn]

[ For UEEF operations, I'd probably modify a Condor (or use the Phalanx-like unit in UEEF Marines).).

I can see the Condor frame as a good fit for the job, especially if the operator's cockpit were located in the protruding nose....better chance of seeing over a large payload and seeing the floor/route ahead for better control.

[batlchip]

I could see the gladiator mecha being used to haul crates.
There are several ways to haul cargo. All through not mecha once you but a human cockpit in them then removed certain weaponry the zents male and female power armor could make great cargo haulers.

[Jefffar]

I'm not sure I'd talk about Mecha cargo haulers, they are a very. Inefficient platform for moving large weights over long distances. Perhaps instead we are looking more for Mecha cargo handlers.

[glitterboy2098]

The books call them haulers though, so either the setting went a less effective route or the name does not accurately describe them.

I could see them being useful though in the right terrain jungles, swamps, mountains.. Places where you need a lot of cargo moved and trucks would not handle it well. And where VTOL aircraft need too many flights

[glitterboy2098]

to be honest, the direction i'm inclined to go is too much like the Buster and Powerman Industrial mechs from battletech. smaller units similar in size to the ASC battoids, designed to move the smaller Itermodal, TriCON, and CONEX type containers. given the relative history of the two franchises in the past though, it seemed prudent to consider alternate approaches to prevent further confusion.

a regult based design that could be both mobile crane and transport seemed like a good alternative.. would would fit the robotech setting well enough given how many zentraedi pods would have been available for conversion.


and i'm not sure those forklift vehicles would need a mecha skill to pilot. they aren't really all that much different than the modern forklifts, as their 'claw' and Waldo features don't really have much dexterity apparent. it doesn't take lots of specialized training to use a Waldo system to move cargo, while the mecha skill make a point to talk about the humanoid frame.. suggesting the real concern with mecha piloting is not the arms but rather piloting a legged vehicles vs wheels or tracks.

[ShadowLogan]

I could see them being useful though in the right terrain jungles, swamps, mountains.. Places where you need a lot of cargo moved and trucks would not handle it well. And where VTOL aircraft need too many flights

That might be a viable explanation except for it doesn't work post 2011-ish as the VHT dates to this time (2011 and 2013 entered service) and the book references the M-32 as validating the technology that went into it (essentially). So hover platforms between 2011 and 2030 would seem to be a better solution on Earth. Post 2030 Earth would probably come down to what was available (salvage), and pre-2011 might have hover platforms as more novelty/development (we know the ASC PA suits are in development), and might be more "conventional" in this period than displaying high level robotics. In space hover platforms like that might not be adopted for maximum use of space (conventional hover vehicles are useless on a place like the Moon or Mercury that the UEEF might find itself at).

Cargo haulers in Jungle/forest might work, but swamps might be to soft to support a loaded cargo hauler not specially designed for the conditions. Mountains might be a mixed bag.

and i'm not sure those forklift vehicles would need a mecha skill to pilot. they aren't really all that much different than the modern forklifts, as their 'claw' and Waldo features don't really have much dexterity apparent. it doesn't take lots of specialized training to use a Waldo system to move cargo, while the mecha skill make a point to talk about the humanoid frame.. suggesting the real concern with mecha piloting is not the arms but rather piloting a legged vehicles vs wheels or tracks.

You might be right it might not take a mecha skill slot to use them, but in 1E the TCH-4 specifically is called out to give the pilot better combat bonuses if they are of the Destroid Pilot OCC. So it might not be so much that you need a mecha pilot skill slot to use them (Cargo Haulers), but if you have the "advanced" skill you receive bonuses that a "lesser" piloting skill would not confer because of their design. We can see this in the Battloid/Veritech skill (and the Tracked & Construction Vehicles Pilot skill relating to Tanks & APCs) descriptions when the operate the others type of mecha (reduced actions per melee and skill penalty), so there is some precedent even in 2E.

The way the Battloid skill is worded implies these units are humanoid shaped, but I do think we have to consider how much of a humanoid shape are we talking about here for this role, because the Destroids are included and not all of them are really "humanoid" (ex. Monster-type given various aspects, UEDF R-04 series due to the non-humanness of the arms), so there could be some wiggly room. A bi-pedal design might impose weight restrictions that a quad(+)-type could avoid, or something purely vehicle below the waist("centaur", think the bots like #5 from Short Circuit in the 80s).

Its also important to consider that conventional ML-3 Forklift from 1E had a lift/carry capacity of 4tons (imperial). By comparison the strongest human mecha in 2E RPG (TSC/TMS/TRM books) is the Monster in the Robotic PS of 63, or approximately 3tons (imperial). Now we could do things to improve the carry capacity by storing it in place of other weight (ex using the VF-1 hardpoints and armor add-ons can push the Robotic PS carry capacity of 950lbs into multi-ton range), but the Lift/Carry of the limbs seems to be limited and such approaches might still be outclassed by more conventional approaches (the VF-1 certainly would be by the M100 Atlas in the TMS book, or the other ground cargo hauler, and ASC Battloids are outclassed by the M-10 hovertruck).