Can Nightbane bred?

[Marcethus]

The way I always thought of this idea that NB are orphans…..is that they are really 'Foundlings' children that are just 'found' somewhere. Yes, in a modern socity they would go into the orphanages and concider then as orphans.

Foundlings can cover a few different situations: the parent left the child on a doorstep to protect the child, one or both of the parents is know to be dead, or……the child appears out of nothing where it will be found. This last one best meshes with the "wraiths of the formless ones" concept.

That is pretty much how I run it.

[Axelmania]

Drew being told they're human doesn't necessarily negate all-orphans statements. Until that's negated we can definitely speculate as to possible explanations for what causes them to become orphans if they are born with parents.

Perhaps Nightbane have a human mother, no father, and a Formless One induces a pregnancy and then the birth always kills the human host?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Drew being told they're human doesn't necessarily negate all-orphans statements. Until that's negated we can definitely speculate as to possible explanations for what causes them to become orphans if they are born with parents.

Perhaps Nightbane have a human mother, no father, and a Formless One induces a pregnancy and then the birth always kills the human host?

I am not going to be drawn into an argument about that speculation.

[Axelmania]

It's a brainstorm, I'm wondering which possibilities are plausible and which are not.

Does the Survival Guide give any examples of Nightbane whose biological human parents are still present? Or at least, how late they were present into their lives before dying/disappearing?

[Mathew]

I always figured that Nightspawn were magical creatures that had secret origins. They do not reproduce as Nightspawn. They wear a near-perfect human DISGUISE. This human disguise could parent children, who would be normal humans. The true form of a Nightspawn cannot breed.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I always figures that Nightspawn were magical creatures that had secret origins. They do not reproduce as Nightspawn. They wear a near-perfect human DISGUISE. This human disguise could parent children, who would be normal humans. The true form of a Nightspawn cannot breed.

However, the topic is about Nightbane. Which are Now just humans with SN powers.

I do agree that NS cannot interbreed with humans.

However, to both NS &NB, there is no text concerning their fertility. Before or after their becoming.

[Razorwing]

Simply put, the life of a Nightbane is a very dangerous one... with the Nightbane themselves often having to leave everyone and everything they have behind on a moment's notice. In such a situation it is very difficult to raise a family.

Any Nightbane that had children would be far more vulnerable to their enemies if they decide to keep it. Thus, most Nightbane are likely to find someone who can care for the child (which may or may not become Nightbane). Sometimes this can be a trusted friend... other times it will be a stranger. In the end it really doesn't matter much, so long as the child is relatively safe and the parent(s) can keep one step ahead of those following them (without leading back to their child).

Beyond this, the setting is still very dangerous to even normal people. Since Dark Day, the number of people who have been killed or simply vanished has increased dramatically. This has lead to a dramatic rise in the number of orphans in the world... some of which end up in orphanages... others taken in by friends or family. It also makes tracking the true parentage of potential Nightbane nearly impossible. Even before Dark Day, there were many ways for such potentials to loose their birth parents without being foundlings. Also, before Dark Day, there were also far fewer potentials becoming Nightbane.

In the end, you are free to decide what you want to do with the setting for your games. However, I would refrain from using the term Retcon for the decision to go back to the idea that Nightbane aren't humans. Retcon suggests and official change to the setting... something only Palladium can do. Your choice to change things is your choice, but it isn't official, and shouldn't be considered a Retcon. I can't offer a less official sounding word as an alternative... but by using the term Retcon, it does sort of sound like you are making a choice that others have to follow... which they don't.

My personal take on Nightbane is that they are humans with the souls of the Formless... it is the Formless Soul that gives them their Nightbane abilities... when it awakens... but in all other respects, they are still human (the same mortality... even if they are longer lived; the same morality; the same fears, loves, hatreds and foibles that all humans share... regardless of what powers they may or may not have).

[Axelmania]

A parent with Astral Self and a means of getting their kid to the astral plane could live pretty safe from the Nightlords.

Its not as if human parents are all that safer. Humans routinely get poisoned l, kidnapped, sucked into nightmares, etc.

[drewkitty ~..~]

A parent with Astral Self and a means of getting their kid to the astral plane could live pretty safe from the Nightlords.

Its not as if human parents are all that safer. Humans routinely get poisoned l, kidnapped, sucked into nightmares, etc.

In the astral plane NB are restricted to their morphus form. As such can't hide what they are from the Night Lord's minions there.

[Corren]

Drewkitty, I notice you keep saying that NB as human with some 'recessive genes' is cannon, but that is not what the book [Survival Guide] says. The book just says that that is ONE possibility (pg 10 and 25). It gives other possibilities on pages 10 and 25 - 33.

Unless Warwolf stated it on the forums as cannon or its in a Q&A as cannon. Otherwise, pg 33 leaves their actual origins unknown and in G.M.'s hands.

[eliakon]

Drewkitty, I notice you keep saying that NB as human with some 'recessive genes' is cannon, but that is not what the book [Survival Guide] says. The book just says that that is ONE possibility (pg 10 and 25). It gives other possibilities on pages 10 and 25 - 33.

Unless Warwolf stated it on the forums as cannon or its in a Q&A as cannon. Otherwise, pg 33 leaves their actual origins unknown and in G.M.'s hands.

And ummm, unless I am mistaken aren't both of these sources from in universe books that are giving theories?
Which would add an additional level of doubt since what a book of dubious origin claims as the best guesses of some factions are is not the same thing as what the actual canon is. I mean the in universe media says monsters don't exists. Does that mean that the canon is that all the nightbane, vampires, guardians, and the like go away?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Drewkitty, I notice you keep saying that NB as human with some 'recessive genes' is cannon, but that is not what the book [Survival Guide] says. The book just says that that is ONE possibility (pg. 10 and 25). It gives other possibilities on pages 10 and 25 - 33.

Unless Warwolf stated it on the forums as cannon or its in a Q&A as cannon. Otherwise, pg. 33 leaves their actual origins unknown and in G.M.'s hands.

That is because I was paraphrasing what the NBSG says into fewer words and saying them in an accurate but different phrasing.

In other words, I took what all of what the NBSG had to say on the subject. And condensed all the disparate texts into one sentence that described what was said.

Or you could say, I analyzed what the NBSG texts had to say about the subject and put the conclusion into one sentence.

The Published Canon takes precedence over the opinions posted in the Q&A forum, or even posted online anywhere. Some exceptions can be found in the cuttingroom floor.

I will direct you to pages 50-54 of the NBSG. the reference requires you to think about it/analyze it for a bit to see why I am mentioning it. For while what I am pointing out is said in plain english, but most times overlooked.

footnote: "Published Canon", most people here know I mean the printed books when I say this.

[eliakon]

Drewkitty, I notice you keep saying that NB as human with some 'recessive genes' is cannon, but that is not what the book [Survival Guide] says. The book just says that that is ONE possibility (pg. 10 and 25). It gives other possibilities on pages 10 and 25 - 33.

Unless Warwolf stated it on the forums as cannon or its in a Q&A as cannon. Otherwise, pg. 33 leaves their actual origins unknown and in G.M.'s hands.

That is because I was paraphrasing what the NBSG says into fewer words and saying them in an accurate but different phrasing.

In other words, I took what all of what the NBSG had to say on the subject. And condensed all the disparate texts into one sentence that described what was said.

Or you could say, I analyzed what the NBSG texts had to say about the subject and put the conclusion into one sentence.

The Published Canon takes precedence over the opinions posted in the Q&A forum, or even posted online anywhere. Some exceptions can be found in the cuttingroom floor.

I will direct you to pages 50-54 of the NBSG. the reference requires you to think about it/analyze it for a bit to see why I am mentioning it. For while what I am pointing out is said in plain english, but most times overlooked.

footnote: "Published Canon", most people here know I mean the printed books when I say this.

There isn't a single thing there about genetics.
Period
There is, at best a mention of "seen by parents" which does not prove anything since it does not say biological parents.
The ONLY mention of magical genetics that have been mentioned so far are in a source that is NOT canon (the in game book)
This seems to suggest that the claim that the NBSG made a canon change to what Nightbane are is false.
As you are the one making the positive claim the burden of proof is on you.
So I ask again. Do You Have Any Citable PROOF That Nightbane Were Changed?
Not "well I read the book, and interpreted it" that is not proof. That is what we call "head canon"

[Corren]

That is because I was paraphrasing what the NBSG says into fewer words and saying them in an accurate but different phrasing.

In other words, I took what all of what the NBSG had to say on the subject. And condensed all the disparate texts into one sentence that described what was said.

Or you could say, I analyzed what the NBSG texts had to say about the subject and put the conclusion into one sentence.

The Published Canon takes precedence over the opinions posted in the Q&A forum, or even posted online anywhere. Some exceptions can be found in the cuttingroom floor.

I will direct you to pages 50-54 of the NBSG. the reference requires you to think about it/analyze it for a bit to see why I am mentioning it. For while what I am pointing out is said in plain english, but most times overlooked.

footnote: "Published Canon", most people here know I mean the printed books when I say this.

Published Canon being the case, it says on the top of page 33 that there are other theories, and then goes on to say that GMs are free to develop their own theories.

I guess your analysis and mine are different; I don't see it paraphrased as they are ultimately humans - or that all even think of themselves as humans.

[Axelmania]

In the astral plane NB are restricted to their morphus form. As such can't hide what they are from the Night Lord's minions there.

Page 91 of Between the Shadows:

Nightbanes in the Dreamstream must always assume their morphus form; if they try to change into their facades, the effect lasts only a few seconds before being "snapped" back into their morphus shape.

Is this what you were thinking of or is there a similar statement for the Astral Plane as well?

Regardless of what shape they're in, a sufficiently large astral realm could create enough distance (so long as you stayed far enough from the borders) to put you out of range of minion sensing unless they entered the realm, which could be prevented by hiding it.

Hounds can sniff supernaturals at 60 feet, hound masters at 80 feet. I don't think they can even tell by that what kind of supernatural critter.

The real danger is probably traitorous Nightbane working for the Nightlords, since they ONLY sense other nightbane, can also sense them in Facade, and have a better range of 300+ feet.

Even in that case, a "Big" domain with a cubic mile (147197952000 cubic feet) could build a sphere with a radius of 3280 feet giving you plenty of room inside that's well distance of the sensing range.

B. Size 4. Big is 20 creation points meaning that even a 1. Tiny Domains' 50 leaves you with 30 to spend on Hidden (15) requiring passing a difficult perception roll after 4 hours of searching just to find it, and 15 on Ectoplasmic Barriers so even if they did find it, it would be take some effort to get in and probably give you time to escape or at least prepare.

Deviously, you could even consent to just let 1 hound in and leave any companions outside so you can gang up on him.

[Nightmask]

In the astral plane NB are restricted to their morphus form. As such can't hide what they are from the Night Lord's minions there.

Page 91 of Between the Shadows:

Nightbanes in the Dreamstream must always assume their morphus form; if they try to change into their facades, the effect lasts only a few seconds before being "snapped" back into their morphus shape.

Is this what you were thinking of or is there a similar statement for the Astral Plane as well?

Regardless of what shape they're in, a sufficiently large astral realm could create enough distance (so long as you stayed far enough from the borders) to put you out of range of minion sensing unless they entered the realm, which could be prevented by hiding it.

Hounds can sniff supernaturals at 60 feet, hound masters at 80 feet. I don't think they can even tell by that what kind of supernatural critter.

The real danger is probably traitorous Nightbane working for the Nightlords, since they ONLY sense other nightbane, can also sense them in Facade, and have a better range of 300+ feet.

Even in that case, a "Big" domain with a cubic mile (147197952000 cubic feet) could build a sphere with a radius of 3280 feet giving you plenty of room inside that's well distance of the sensing range.

B. Size 4. Big is 20 creation points meaning that even a 1. Tiny Domains' 50 leaves you with 30 to spend on Hidden (15) requiring passing a difficult perception roll after 4 hours of searching just to find it, and 15 on Ectoplasmic Barriers so even if they did find it, it would be take some effort to get in and probably give you time to escape or at least prepare.

Deviously, you could even consent to just let 1 hound in and leave any companions outside so you can gang up on him.

Or you just have as one of the physical laws of the domain be 'occupants cannot be sensed by those outside the domain', since you can add pretty much any property you feel like to a domain as long as you can afford the cost (and it can't possibly be that expensive, certainly it wouldn't be as egregious as what it costs to disable a Ba'al's powers).

[Axelmania]

True, F.7., I was just thinking of the pre-defined stuff that doesn't require figuring out the price with the GM. Given that this is effectively affecting the senses of people outside the realm I'd consider it pretty powerful though, maybe putting it at 100 like the Nightlords isn't a bad idea. GM could even ignore the 'should range' and price it at 500.

[Razorwing]

No method of parenting is 100% safe... especially now that the Nightlords have such a strong foothold on Earth.

Still, by a far margin, having humans raise a potential Nightbane is far more likely to see that potential Nightbane survive until it can Become or not. Nightlords seriously underestimate what humans are capable of... they don't even consider them anything close to a threat unless they have magical or psychic abilities... traits that are incredibly rare in the human population. Thus the masses of humanity are generally ignored until the Nightlords decide to cull such cattle. This gives potential Nightbane living with human parents (regardless of exact origins) the most "normal" upbringing possible.

Of course this doesn't always work out. A given family may become one of the Nightlord targets for any reason... which will likely disrupt that normalcy... and possibly trigger a potential Nightbane's Becoming. However, for a child that may or may not Become, it is often their best chance at survival.

Now, assuming that Nightbane can breed and choose to raise the child themselves, how normal do you think such a child will be? The parent(s) will likely be on the move constantly to hide from the Nightlords and their minions... not to mention nearly everyone else that might become hostile to their family. Even isolating themselves away from most people has a tendency to backfire as many people can become curious to what such anti-social people are up to in such an isolated area (with both children and adults having their suspicions and legends). Add to all of this the likelihood of the child knowing that their parent(s) is not entirely human... and the chances the child sees itself as normal is a lot less likely.

Imagine you are a Nightbane parent, trying to protect your child from anything that children normally face... how long before you reveal what you are and are forced to move on to protect that child? Now, if that child doesn't Become, you will slowly watch as that child grows old while you do not (at least not at the same rate). How many of us could bare to burry one's own child even if that child had a long and normal life? How would you explain to others that the man who looks old enough to be your grandfather is actually your son? Of course, if the child is Nightbane, things don't get any easier as now you have to show them how to survive in a world that rejects them before it knows them. How do you prepare a child for a life that will be anything but normal?

It is likely these problems that will lead many Nightbane parents to give their children to people they hope will be able to raise them normally. Sometimes, such small hope can mean the difference, especially in a world where such hope is fleeting at best.

All of this said, there is still the chance that a Nightbane raising their own child has been done at least once in the past. While there is no documentation of such, one also has to realize that the documents there are do not cover every single Nightbane that has ever existed. Even the oldest Nightbane can't track all of their kind to be sure... and with the lives they lead (often violent and always secretive), even they can't be 100% sure that such a thing isn't possible. It is in this ambiguity that it may be possible for Nightbane to have children... and even raise them. It will be a rarity to be sure... but it is still plausible.