Wormwood T-man

[Abadon Spectre]

Can a wormwood human become a tattooed man?

My first thought is to say yes, since they are human, but they are also MDC critters.

[say652]

If i were the games gm i would say No. It seems like an additional MDC munch to add to the Tattoo Man mdc.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Off the top of my head I can't think of why not. However, I have not read the WW in quite a while.

However, I would rule the same as say and allow them to become T-men.

[RockJock]

The issue is do you consider a WW human to be supernatural?

[say652]

Doesn't the book say, Humans from wormwood are infused with the supernatural energies of the planet in the book?

[drewkitty ~..~]

The issue is do you consider a WW human to be supernatural?

The issue is that, 'does canon consider a WW human to be supernatural or not?' for if they can via RAW.

Someone might have to look in the rcb1 or other book that deals with the interactions of WW with the other settings to find out if they are or not.

As to what I would rule, is a matter of game balance and if I as a GM would want to deal with an over powered character. More the ladder then the former.

[RockJock]

Say652,

I don't have the book in front of me, but that is how I remember it as well. I wouldn't let an Amazon, Sea Titan, Earth/Star Child get tattoos, and I wouldn't let a WW human get them either. That being said, WW humans are "light" on the supernatural scale, so I wouldn't rule it out 100%.

Drewkitty,

Do you have a good definition of what is, or isn't supernatural without loopholes? Special cases within special cases is hard to find a canon answer that fits.

[say652]

Yea but watch, allow it and suddenly sdc becomes mdc and skill sdc equals mdc, plus hitpoints plus pe plus 1D6 per level plus Tattoo mdc plus Tattoo man mdc.... see where this is heading.

[drewkitty ~..~]

@RJ
Why don't you read what I said and you will know what I mean.
The question you just asked has nothing to do with what I had just said.

[eliakon]

I can't see any reason it would not be allowed under the Rules As Written. The humans of Wormwood are minor MDC beings that are "human in every other way" which means that they do not have supernatural stats, nor are they affected by spells or affects that target the supernatural. A circle of protection will not keep out a Wormwood human for example. I would say that would not count as "mutated until they are a supernatural being" which is the listed disqualification.

As a GM I might not allow it in a specific game, but legally I don't see anything wrong with it.

[say652]

My free advice, if you do allow it. Make them use the T-Man mdc as listed that way you don't end up a 1000+ Mdc munchkin to deal with. Stopping it before it starts is the only way.

[RockJock]

Drew, my original statement was meant as a reply to Abandon Spectre's question, not to your response.

If you read WW humans as non supernatural, and just normal humans that are harder to squish there isn't a good reason to disavow tattoos. If you see being a minor MDC being making a WW human a minor supernatural then no tats. It boils down to how you classify WW humans.

In the past I've generally considered WW humans to be supernatural because I didn't want to see WW Juicers, and the like. WW humans have been one of those

[flatline]

Yea but watch, allow it and suddenly sdc becomes mdc and skill sdc equals mdc, plus hitpoints plus pe plus 1D6 per level plus Tattoo mdc plus Tattoo man mdc.... see where this is heading.

My gut says that their personal MDC will be dwarfed by the MDC provided by the Invulnerability tattoo once the T-man reaches mid-level, so I doubt that it'll make any difference in the long run. But I haven't actually run any numbers.

If you've already done such a build, how bad is it?

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

They cannot. Wormwood humans are an MDC mutant variant. Splynn Dimensional market made a rule no mutant humans who are MDC and/or have superpowers can get tattos.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Drew, my original statement was meant as a reply to Abandon Spectre's question, not to your response.
..snip

And my reply was directly to your reply to me.

As to the question you asked: a very wide definition would be anything that is not a part of Physics is supernatural. This does make anyone with any sort of "powers" as Supernatural.

To give mainstream example:
Klark Kent is SN
Batman is not SN
WWoman SN
Cyclops SN
Wulverine SN (overactive biology)
Doc Strange not SN but uses the SN
SMan SN (spidy-sense)
The Punisher not SN
Dragons SN
Unicorns SN
The Terminator not SN
Shiny (from FF) not SN

Yep Supernatural is much like the RCC label in the PB game books. It is an umbrella term that is not very useful when trying to define something.

[eliakon]

They cannot. Wormwood humans are an MDC mutant variant. Splynn Dimensional market made a rule no mutant humans who are MDC and/or have superpowers can get tattos.

I was aware of the statements on page 107 about psionics, superpowers, supernatural abilities, and becoming supernatural
I didn't see anything about MDC though I do have a second printing. Was a statement on MDC shadow updated later?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Its more "if a human has MDC naturally they are by definition a mutant breed of human, and mutants can't get tattoos"

[eliakon]

Its more "if a human has MDC naturally they are by definition a mutant breed of human, and mutants can't get tattoos"

That's not what it says though.

First point the book says "most human mutants" not all human mutants. Meaning that by definition some human mutants can get them. This leads to

Second point sub-species are not the same as mutants. These combine to make my third poing

Which is to point out the fact that sub-species of humans in Skraypers that do not have superpowers are allowed tattoos. THIS is important because the Seerman in Skraypers seem to get MDC in Rifts, even with out superpowers. And they are, by the book allowed to have Tattoos. If an MDC Seerman can have a Tattoo, why can't a MDC Wormwood native?

[Glistam]

Because Seerman are Atlanteans.

[eliakon]

Because Seerman are Atlanteans.

Not anymore they aren't
They don't have immunity to transformation, different stats, different psychic potential...
The Atlantians may claim they have a common ancestor which may or may not be true... but if they ever were Atlantians they aren't now.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yea, Seerons are Atlantean variants.

I will grant there is some wiggle room on mutants, but i'm still pretty sure MDC in general rules it out.

[Axelmania]

Seeronians being descended from Atlanteans is only theory not fact, if I recall.

[say652]

Yea but watch, allow it and suddenly sdc becomes mdc and skill sdc equals mdc, plus hitpoints plus pe plus 1D6 per level plus Tattoo mdc plus Tattoo man mdc.... see where this is heading.

My gut says that their personal MDC will be dwarfed by the MDC provided by the Invulnerability tattoo once the T-man reaches mid-level, so I doubt that it'll make any difference in the long run. But I haven't actually run any numbers.

If you've already done such a build, how bad is it?

--flatline

When i allowed a dualclass Hunter to became a T-Man.
Around 1600mdc at level 7/ level 1.
Counted as a Megahero so the stacking bonuses will get you every single time.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yea but watch, allow it and suddenly sdc becomes mdc and skill sdc equals mdc, plus hitpoints plus pe plus 1D6 per level plus Tattoo mdc plus Tattoo man mdc.... see where this is heading.

My gut says that their personal MDC will be dwarfed by the MDC provided by the Invulnerability tattoo once the T-man reaches mid-level, so I doubt that it'll make any difference in the long run. But I haven't actually run any numbers.

If you've already done such a build, how bad is it?

--flatline

When i allowed a dualclass Hunter to became a T-Man.
Around 1600mdc at level 7/ level 1.
Counted as a Megahero so the stacking bonuses will get you every single time.

Try allowing HP and MDC equal SDC when NOT running mega heroes and be surprised at how not really munchy an extra 40 or so MDC over the life of a character is

[say652]

Yea but watch, allow it and suddenly sdc becomes mdc and skill sdc equals mdc, plus hitpoints plus pe plus 1D6 per level plus Tattoo mdc plus Tattoo man mdc.... see where this is heading.

My gut says that their personal MDC will be dwarfed by the MDC provided by the Invulnerability tattoo once the T-man reaches mid-level, so I doubt that it'll make any difference in the long run. But I haven't actually run any numbers.

If you've already done such a build, how bad is it?

--flatline

When i allowed a dualclass Hunter to became a T-Man.
Around 1600mdc at level 7/ level 1.
Counted as a Megahero so the stacking bonuses will get you every single time.

Try allowing HP and MDC equal SDC when NOT running mega heroes and be surprised at how not really munchy an extra 40 or so MDC over the life of a character is

The WW human gets similar bonuses. Sdc added to MDC and +1D6hp/mdc per level.
True they don't gain the +50%sdc but it is still Munchy as hell.
That's why i vote NO.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yea but watch, allow it and suddenly sdc becomes mdc and skill sdc equals mdc, plus hitpoints plus pe plus 1D6 per level plus Tattoo mdc plus Tattoo man mdc.... see where this is heading.

My gut says that their personal MDC will be dwarfed by the MDC provided by the Invulnerability tattoo once the T-man reaches mid-level, so I doubt that it'll make any difference in the long run. But I haven't actually run any numbers.

If you've already done such a build, how bad is it?

--flatline

When i allowed a dualclass Hunter to became a T-Man.
Around 1600mdc at level 7/ level 1.
Counted as a Megahero so the stacking bonuses will get you every single time.

Try allowing HP and MDC equal SDC when NOT running mega heroes and be surprised at how not really munchy an extra 40 or so MDC over the life of a character is

The WW human gets similar bonuses. Sdc added to MDC and +1D6hp/mdc per level.
True they don't gain the +50%sdc but it is still Munchy as hell.
That's why i vote NO.

how is 1d6 MDC per level munchy as hell on an otherwise completely normal human? but playing a mega hero in the first place is not? By what definition of Munchy are you using?

[flatline]

Yea but watch, allow it and suddenly sdc becomes mdc and skill sdc equals mdc, plus hitpoints plus pe plus 1D6 per level plus Tattoo mdc plus Tattoo man mdc.... see where this is heading.

My gut says that their personal MDC will be dwarfed by the MDC provided by the Invulnerability tattoo once the T-man reaches mid-level, so I doubt that it'll make any difference in the long run. But I haven't actually run any numbers.

If you've already done such a build, how bad is it?

--flatline

When i allowed a dualclass Hunter to became a T-Man.
Around 1600mdc at level 7/ level 1.
Counted as a Megahero so the stacking bonuses will get you every single time.

We're not really talking about the same thing. The OP asked if a WW human could become a T-man. There was no mention of dual-classing or Megahero stacking of bonuses.

If memory serves, a WW human has roughly 40 MDC + 1d6 per level. At level 15, assuming you roll 6 every time, the T-man's MDC would be in the ballpark of 400 - 500 MDC. But the Invulnerability tattoo gives 75 MDC/level per activation, so it yields 1125 MDC per activation.

As I said, the increased MDC of the WW T-man might help in the early game, but becomes unnoticeable by mid-level.

--flatline

[say652]

WW T-Man example.

Pe:10+1D6= 15. 70sdc from skills. +10mdc Tman +60mdc Tats for a grand total of 195mdc at level 1. +10mdc per additional tat +1D6md per level.

That's nearly 3 times as much as the standard 70mdc for a T-Man.
12 tattoos, +10mdc for each tattoo over 6 and the +10mdc for being a T-Man

[Nekira Sudacne]

Where are you getting 70 SDC from skills? I barely get maybe 10-20 from skills if that.

I think you are confusing a bit. we are not saying the HP and SDC they started with before becoming a T man gets converted, only after. so it would just be 70 base, +10-30 physical skills depending on which ones they take, +1d6 per level. No one was suggesting convert all Starting HP/SDC to MDC as well, and I have no idea how you assumed 70 MDC from physical skills.

All told, the T-man might come out closer to 100 than 70, a bit over if they get lucky on a couple rolls, that's all.

[say652]

Where are you getting 70 SDC from skills? I barely get maybe 10-20 from skills if that.

I think you are confusing a bit. we are not saying the HP and SDC they started with before becoming a T man gets converted, only after. so it would just be 70 base, +10-30 physical skills depending on which ones they take, +1d6 per level. No one was suggesting convert all Starting HP/SDC to MDC as well, and I have no idea how you assumed 70 MDC from physical skills.

All told, the T-man might come out closer to 100 than 70, a bit over if they get lucky on a couple rolls, that's all.

Boxing,wrestling, Athletics, Gymnastics,Deadball, Juicer Football. All legit choices.

That's also how a WW human gets their MDC. Hp+SDC equals MDC

[Nekira Sudacne]

Where are you getting 70 SDC from skills? I barely get maybe 10-20 from skills if that.

I think you are confusing a bit. we are not saying the HP and SDC they started with before becoming a T man gets converted, only after. so it would just be 70 base, +10-30 physical skills depending on which ones they take, +1d6 per level. No one was suggesting convert all Starting HP/SDC to MDC as well, and I have no idea how you assumed 70 MDC from physical skills.

All told, the T-man might come out closer to 100 than 70, a bit over if they get lucky on a couple rolls, that's all.

Boxing,wrestling, Athletics, Gymnastics,Deadball, Juicer Football. All legit choices.

That's also how a WW human gets their MDC. Hp+SDC equals MDC

Yea, but I've never seen a T-man take nothing but physical skills. THAT is munchy, not the skills themselves.

also: was talking about it seperate from WW humans.

[eliakon]

Where are you getting 70 SDC from skills? I barely get maybe 10-20 from skills if that.

I think you are confusing a bit. we are not saying the HP and SDC they started with before becoming a T man gets converted, only after. so it would just be 70 base, +10-30 physical skills depending on which ones they take, +1d6 per level. No one was suggesting convert all Starting HP/SDC to MDC as well, and I have no idea how you assumed 70 MDC from physical skills.

All told, the T-man might come out closer to 100 than 70, a bit over if they get lucky on a couple rolls, that's all.

Boxing,wrestling, Athletics, Gymnastics,Deadball, Juicer Football. All legit choices.

That's also how a WW human gets their MDC. Hp+SDC equals MDC

Don't physical skills add MDC to a regular T-man as well?

[say652]

I never allowed it. They get mdc from tattoos and the T-man bonus. That's how i always played it. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I never allowed it. They get mdc from tattoos and the T-man bonus. That's how i always played it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Cannonically they don't, I am just positing a houserule and the logic behind it.

[say652]

I never allowed it. They get mdc from tattoos and the T-man bonus. That's how i always played it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Cannonically they don't, I am just positing a houserule and the logic behind it.

So by giving the Canon answer, my logic is incorrect?

Wormwood humans Can Not be Tattoo Men.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I never allowed it. They get mdc from tattoos and the T-man bonus. That's how i always played it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Cannonically they don't, I am just positing a houserule and the logic behind it.

So by giving the Canon answer, my logic is incorrect?

Wormwood humans Can Not be Tattoo Men.

That's what I said to begin with yes. I don't think it would be munchy to allow it, just not canon.

[eliakon]

I never allowed it. They get mdc from tattoos and the T-man bonus. That's how i always played it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Cannonically they don't, I am just positing a houserule and the logic behind it.

I'm curious. Where is the 'no MDC from physical skills' rule? I ask because I know of at least a few examples that specifically allow it, so I am wondering where the ban comes from. I know for instance that HU has rules on physical skills and PS... but those don't apply to Rifts only HU.
(I could just be forgetting something obvious of course.)

[say652]

I never allowed it. They get mdc from tattoos and the T-man bonus. That's how i always played it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Cannonically they don't, I am just positing a houserule and the logic behind it.

I'm curious. Where is the 'no MDC from physical skills' rule? I ask because I know of at least a few examples that specifically allow it, so I am wondering where the ban comes from. I know for instance that HU has rules on physical skills and PS... but those don't apply to Rifts only HU.
(I could just be forgetting something obvious of course.)

The Demigod, Godling, True Inca and a few others do gain MDC from physical skills. I think this was a power reduction rule. Same line of thinking that got Autododge bonuses listed separate from Dodge bonuses.

Sometimes Canon isn't always the intelligentway of thinking.

Since no Canon roleplay group or Adventure series exists, House Rules are actually King in Palladium.

[Axelmania]

SDC bonuses are SDC bonuses until they are not.

If you are an MDC being, you can get the SDC bonuses as normal but they won't help against MD attacks unless you accrue 100.

They could qualify as a nice defense against Phase Beamers though... a kind GM would let those harm your SDC from physical skills before depleting your MDC.

Certain races explicitly say to convert the SDC to MDC, in which case it is allowed.

Allowing all races to convert the bonuses is an understandable house rule since it's less book-keeping to remember who does or doesn't have the text.

Since not all mutants are banned from tats, the SDM wording gives GM a basis for declaring a ban but isn't obligated to since Wormwoodians could be one of the allowed mutants too.

[Nightmask]

SDC bonuses are SDC bonuses until they are not.

If you are an MDC being, you can get the SDC bonuses as normal but they won't help against MD attacks unless you accrue 100.

They could qualify as a nice defense against Phase Beamers though... a kind GM would let those harm your SDC from physical skills before depleting your MDC.

Certain races explicitly say to convert the SDC to MDC, in which case it is allowed.

Allowing all races to convert the bonuses is an understandable house rule since it's less book-keeping to remember who does or doesn't have the text.

Since not all mutants are banned from tats, the SDM wording gives GM a basis for declaring a ban but isn't obligated to since Wormwoodians could be one of the allowed mutants too.

That's not how the SDC bonuses work, physical skills taken by MDC beings contribute MDC in place of SDC.

[Axelmania]

Do you have a source supporting that? Unless there's a general rule, I have to assume that's a species-specific advantage per RAW.

[say652]

I only give skill sdc to beings that have it listed as they get the bonus.

[Nightmask]

Do you have a source supporting that? Unless there's a general rule, I have to assume that's a species-specific advantage per RAW.

And why would you assume that? Why wouldn't physical skills that improve the body prove just as good improving someone who's MDC as someone who is SDC, i.e. MDC gets MDC while SDC gets SDC? Because the rules certainly aren't written where they state physical skills don't work on MDC creatures they clearly do.

[Nekira Sudacne]

They do work on MDC creatures. they get SDC bonuses.

[drewkitty ~..~]

At the time of the text was written the only beings that were MDC, were also SN. One can derive from that, that the intention was that MDC beings can't get magic tattoos.

[eliakon]

Does anyone have any citations for these claims on how physical skills work?
Please?
I know its funny to make the claims and counter claims and all...
But is there any actual support for the various claims?
(book and page please)
I really would like to know what the official stance (if there is one) on _DC bonuses for MDC beings is.

[Abadon Spectre]

Well this has gone a bit off subject, but...

I'm prior military and have played with a lot of different groups and a wide range of players, GMs, and playing styles. Some were good, some were cringe worthy, most were in between.

In most (not all) of them, the SDC skill bonuses were added to the MDC characters with the notable exceptions that those who gained or became MDC later on in the game never got those bonuses unless they gained the skill afterwards.

Given the use of tech, magic, and psi in the game how much MDC/SDC/HPs a given character had was rarely a major issue save for shapeshifters and some of the climactic portions.

[Axelmania]

Demigods and godlings are one example I recall of MDC beings getting SDC bonuses changed to MDC ones. Unless a.universal rule can be pointed out someplace this is still a class specific benefit.

SDC pools for MDC beings are useful vs phase weapons or other attacks which do variable amounts so it is still of some benefit. Could always spend it making a golem.