Latent Nightbane (Special or not?) & Nightbane Psionics

[Marcethus]

snip...Can you provide a page/source for the source that says that magic triggers a becoming? …snip

This is what I was asking about myself. Since Marcethus sounded like he knew where this was.



Where did I get the idea? nope was not my idea. years ago,I was talking about a NS Mystic Study of mine and someone was arguing that all NS/NB had to be the NB/NS mage class due to that when they cast their 1st spell it triggers their becoming and puts the char into that class. For some reason the memory catalog is saying was said by someone named eliakon….but I suspect it was really NightMask that actually said it. Yes, I know it is a bit late for following it up, but this has not come up since then.

Regardless of this getting a magic tattoo would be a stressful event that would cause an un-awakened NB (or NS) to have their 1st becoming.

I do know where to find the references to Nightbane being taught magic before their becoming, because I have been recently rereading my Nightbane books as part of working on my Campaign. It's page 118 of Nightbane RPG under the description of the Nightbane Sorcerer.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So I was a brain fart of mine.
*goes back and edits*

[eliakon]

And the wording on it is Immune to Transformation by Any means, including but not limted to:

Which we know is false already because we can point to at least one exception. And where there is one exception there is no reason to assume that there can not be others.

Except it's not false since for one an exception doesn't make the 'any' portion no longer valid and for another just because True Atlanteans have an exception in their immunity to transformations doesn't mean Nightbane, latent or active, do. Even if they had an exception that doesn't mean that they can get psionics even though they're canonically stated as being incapable of possessing them. Considering the mystic nightbane can't have any even though psychic powers are usually part of the class we have evidence right there that they can't develop them even as part of a class that they're a good portion of.

It is false though.
They are said to be immune to any change.

And then just a couple pages latter we are told of a change that they are NOT immune to.

This FLAT OUT means that we now know of at least ONE change that is an exception. There is no way around this fact. The supposed blanket immunity of the TA, BY CANON has a loop hole.

Fast forward to the Nightbane. It has the exact same text for its immunity.
This tells me that any claim that the Nightbane immunity has no loop holes is... at best... yeah.

[Nightmask]

And the wording on it is Immune to Transformation by Any means, including but not limted to:

Which we know is false already because we can point to at least one exception. And where there is one exception there is no reason to assume that there can not be others.

Except it's not false since for one an exception doesn't make the 'any' portion no longer valid and for another just because True Atlanteans have an exception in their immunity to transformations doesn't mean Nightbane, latent or active, do. Even if they had an exception that doesn't mean that they can get psionics even though they're canonically stated as being incapable of possessing them. Considering the mystic nightbane can't have any even though psychic powers are usually part of the class we have evidence right there that they can't develop them even as part of a class that they're a good portion of.

It is false though.
They are said to be immune to any change.

And then just a couple pages latter we are told of a change that they are NOT immune to.

This FLAT OUT means that we now know of at least ONE change that is an exception. There is no way around this fact. The supposed blanket immunity of the TA, BY CANON has a loop hole.

Fast forward to the Nightbane. It has the exact same text for its immunity.
This tells me that any claim that the Nightbane immunity has no loop holes is... at best... yeah.

No it's not false, any remains any even if you have an 'except in this case' exception applied to it. The text being the same between the two species is irrelevant, you cannot derive anything from exceptions that occur for the one as applying to the other because they aren't related. So since there are NO exceptions to the Nightbane's immunity to transformation shown then there is no reason to insist that there must be because some totally unrelated race from a completely different game has one or two exceptions while using the same text for its own listed immunities.

[eliakon]

And the wording on it is Immune to Transformation by Any means, including but not limted to:

Which we know is false already because we can point to at least one exception. And where there is one exception there is no reason to assume that there can not be others.

Except it's not false since for one an exception doesn't make the 'any' portion no longer valid and for another just because True Atlanteans have an exception in their immunity to transformations doesn't mean Nightbane, latent or active, do. Even if they had an exception that doesn't mean that they can get psionics even though they're canonically stated as being incapable of possessing them. Considering the mystic nightbane can't have any even though psychic powers are usually part of the class we have evidence right there that they can't develop them even as part of a class that they're a good portion of.

It is false though.
They are said to be immune to any change.

And then just a couple pages latter we are told of a change that they are NOT immune to.

This FLAT OUT means that we now know of at least ONE change that is an exception. There is no way around this fact. The supposed blanket immunity of the TA, BY CANON has a loop hole.

Fast forward to the Nightbane. It has the exact same text for its immunity.
This tells me that any claim that the Nightbane immunity has no loop holes is... at best... yeah.

No it's not false, any remains any even if you have an 'except in this case' exception applied to it. The text being the same between the two species is irrelevant, you cannot derive anything from exceptions that occur for the one as applying to the other because they aren't related. So since there are NO exceptions to the Nightbane's immunity to transformation shown then there is no reason to insist that there must be because some totally unrelated race from a completely different game has one or two exceptions while using the same text for its own listed immunities.

Um you mean other than things like Reshape Façade, Lend a Hand, Remove Façade, et multiple cetera? Which are clearly mystic transformations and or/changes that are performed on Nightbane in canon?

Since I can point to those to prove that the Nightbane immunity is no more iron clad and proof from exemption we can pretty much go back to the claim that "Immune to transformation" in palladium is NOT a universal absolute. As it has provable, demonstrable loop holes in both of these applications.

If we can point to specific exemptions (that are not documented in the original immunity) then the claim that there can not be OTHER undocumented exemptions, is to me, unsupportable.

[Marcethus]

Except that your Exceptions are not actually exceptions. Reshape Facade is a Talent that lets the Nightbane alter the appearance of their facade not transform it in any way. Remove Facade does not transform a Nightbane it merely forces them into their Morphus form. Lend a Hand isn't in any of the books that I have reread recently so it must be in Nightbane Survival Guide and I can't comment on that as of yet.

So far there are no exceptions to a Nightbane's Immunity to Transformation.

[Axelmania]

No stress is guaranteed to cause a becoming. Getting a tat COULD but not always.

Lack of Psychic potential means that the the char/race can Never Ever have psionic powers.

This is part of what Lack of Psychic potential means in PB canon.

NB can't be changed so even an outside power can't change NB to be albe to have psi powers.

To say otherwise is a house rule.

The potential being talked about is only the potential to gain it from ones race, ie the random rolling 'standard' we see on others. It does not refer to an inability to potential gain it outside of the RCC from training.

Nightbane can be changed (for example, they can gain knowledge, learn a spell, as a sorcerer) just not "transformed". Training to become a Cyber-Knight or an Acolyte is not a transformation so neither path to psionics would be prevented by their racial immunity.

Logic thought: If an outside power changes an individual that can not have psi powers to have psi powers. Is that individual still the same or is it different? The individual is different, thus not the same.

With NB even the above "change from outside" is blocked by there not being able to be transformed. Thus, they can not be changed to be able to have psi powers.

All of this stupid argument is about something that can't happen within canon.

You're mis-citing their racial immunity to transformations, this is not an immunity to "change". Or can Nightbane also not change their alignments because of your house-rule?

Nightbane also clearly can 'change' by using talents (Astral/Dream Self, Swarm, etc.) so their immunity to transformations is clearly talking about a specific type of intrusion (like for example, a magical metamorphosis spell) and not something as broad as you're implying.

Actually there are definitive canon statement regarding both the Psionics and the Immunity to transformation.

Psionics:None. Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic Powers. Some Talents protect against telepathic intrusion however.

..

Anything that tries to say the granting of psychic powers to a Nightbane isn't a transformation is a house rule.

A human can also start with no psionic abilities and no capability for using them, but then gain them later on by training to become a Cyber-Knight, so this isn't particularly a strong statement.

It seems like you are introducing a house rule saying that only transformations can grant psychic abilities. Unless you can show where it says that.

The only exceptions for Atlanteans seems to be those involving Becoming an Undead Slayer or its variants. Which I specifically mention in my above post.

The Maxi-Killer Splugorth Juicer is not an Undead Slayer variant.

Neither is a T-Monster Man (an OCC present among the Sunaj) although both the US and TMM are Tattooed OCCs.

Except it's not false since for one an exception doesn't make the 'any' portion no longer valid and for another just because True Atlanteans have an exception in their immunity to transformations doesn't mean Nightbane, latent or active, do.

'Any' is still very valid. There actually is not any exceptions to 'any'.

Instead, what True Atlanteans can become, rather than being an exception, informs us on what magical transformations are, and what an immunity to them (like the Nightbane and True Atlanteans have) indicates.

that doesn't mean that they can get psionics even though they're canonically stated as being incapable of possessing them. Considering the mystic nightbane can't have any even though psychic powers are usually part of the class we have evidence right there that they can't develop them even as part of a class that they're a good portion of.

There is no statement saying that Nightbane are incapable of possessing psionic powers. There is "none" and "lack the capability to use" on 88 and 'no psionic potential' on 119

Lacking inherent psionic abilities (or a random chance for roll to them) means you lack the capability to use them by default, all non-psionics lack the capability to use psychic powers, only psychics can use psychic powers. 'No Potential' just reiterates what we already know, that there is no potential chance of random psionics like the 'standard' races have.

None of the big 3 statements prevent gaining psionics from other means, some of which do not qualify as transformations.

Mystics not having them doesn't necessarily mean anything other than they opted to discover their free Talents (normally lost when studying magic, like a Sorcerer) instead of psi.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Psionic potential is like a cup that can be filled.

Lacking psi potential is there is no cup to be filled.

[Nightmask]

that doesn't mean that they can get psionics even though they're canonically stated as being incapable of possessing them. Considering the mystic nightbane can't have any even though psychic powers are usually part of the class we have evidence right there that they can't develop them even as part of a class that they're a good portion of.

There is no statement saying that Nightbane are incapable of possessing psionic powers. There is "none" and "lack the capability to use" on 88 and 'no psionic potential' on 119

Lacking inherent psionic abilities (or a random chance for roll to them) means you lack the capability to use them by default, all non-psionics lack the capability to use psychic powers, only psychics can use psychic powers. 'No Potential' just reiterates what we already know, that there is no potential chance of random psionics like the 'standard' races have.

None of the big 3 statements prevent gaining psionics from other means, some of which do not qualify as transformations.

Mystics not having them doesn't necessarily mean anything other than they opted to discover their free Talents (normally lost when studying magic, like a Sorcerer) instead of psi.

It's just mindboggling how you insist the very things you're quoting don't say exactly what they say. EVERYTHING you quote EXPLICITLY lays out that Nightbane CANNOT have Psionics EVER, which is why the Nightbane Mystic explicitly notes that they lack a regular mystic's psychic powers because Nightbane CANNOT ever have psionics. Then you follow with a flawed argument that's meaningless because there's a world of difference between being part of a race that has the potential for psionics but just not having them yourself individually and being part of a race that cannot have them at all. A human is part of a race that even if a particular individual doesn't have psionics the race as a whole can have and does have members with psionics, a Nightbane is part of a race that NO individual can have psionics because it's not and cannot be part of their race.

[eliakon]

Except that your Exceptions are not actually exceptions. Reshape Facade is a Talent that lets the Nightbane alter the appearance of their facade not transform it in any way. Remove Facade does not transform a Nightbane it merely forces them into their Morphus form. Lend a Hand isn't in any of the books that I have reread recently so it must be in Nightbane Survival Guide and I can't comment on that as of yet.

So far there are no exceptions to a Nightbane's Immunity to Transformation.

Reshape Façade is called, IN THE BOOK a transformation.
And I would ask you what you would call something that magically shape changes you into another body, with a whole new set of magical powers and new stats? I mean that is quite literally a text book definition of a transformation. If that ISN'T a transformation, then why do we consider something like Metamorphosis Human a transformation?

[Axelmania]

Psionic potential is like a cup that can be filled.

Lacking psi potential is there is no cup to be filled.

If there is no cup in a room then other forces can teleport lesser one in.

There is "none" and "lack the capability to use" on 88 and 'no psionic potential' on 119

Lacking inherent psionic abilities (or a random chance for roll to them) means you lack the capability to use them by default, all non-psionics lack the capability to use psychic powers, only psychics can use psychic powers. 'No Potential' just reiterates what we already know, that there is no potential chance of random psionics like the 'standard' races have.

None of the big 3 statements prevent gaining psionics from other means, some of which do not qualify as transformations.

It's just mindboggling how you insist the very things you're quoting don't say exactly what they say. EVERYTHING you quote EXPLICITLY lays out that Nightbane CANNOT have Psionics EVER, which is why the Nightbane Mystic explicitly notes that they lack a regular mystic's psychic powers because Nightbane CANNOT ever have psionics.

I accept what the text says. That is why I quote it without fear. What I object to is your interpretation. "Ever" you seem to like but reflect on the origins of those 4 letters.

[Nightmask]

Psionic potential is like a cup that can be filled.

Lacking psi potential is there is no cup to be filled.

If there is no cup in a room then other forces can teleport lesser one in.

There is "none" and "lack the capability to use" on 88 and 'no psionic potential' on 119

Lacking inherent psionic abilities (or a random chance for roll to them) means you lack the capability to use them by default, all non-psionics lack the capability to use psychic powers, only psychics can use psychic powers. 'No Potential' just reiterates what we already know, that there is no potential chance of random psionics like the 'standard' races have.

None of the big 3 statements prevent gaining psionics from other means, some of which do not qualify as transformations.

It's just mindboggling how you insist the very things you're quoting don't say exactly what they say. EVERYTHING you quote EXPLICITLY lays out that Nightbane CANNOT have Psionics EVER, which is why the Nightbane Mystic explicitly notes that they lack a regular mystic's psychic powers because Nightbane CANNOT ever have psionics.

I accept what the text says. That is why I quote it without fear. What I object to is your interpretation. "Ever" you seem to like but reflect on the origins of those 4 letters.

No you don't accept what the text says, that's abundantly evident every time you insist they could somehow have psionics when the text says that they cannot. It's as absolutely contrary to the actual text as if you insisted that one Phase World race could learn and use magic in spite of the text making it clear that they have no capacity to use magic. You cannot give a Nightbane/spawn psionics, ever, there is no wiggle room, it's not open for interpretation, that's just the fact of things. You want to remove that restriction in your games that's up to you but by canon a Nightbane/spawn cannot have psionics, ever, by any means.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Psionic potential is like a cup that can be filled.

Lacking psi potential is there is no cup to be filled.

If there is no cup in a room then other forces can teleport lesser one in.

There is "none" and "lack the capability to use" on 88 and 'no psionic potential' on 119

Lacking inherent psionic abilities (or a random chance for roll to them) means you lack the capability to use them by default, all non-psionics lack the capability to use psychic powers, only psychics can use psychic powers. 'No Potential' just reiterates what we already know, that there is no potential chance of random psionics like the 'standard' races have.

None of the big 3 statements prevent gaining psionics from other means, some of which do not qualify as transformations.

It's just mindboggling how you insist the very things you're quoting don't say exactly what they say. EVERYTHING you quote EXPLICITLY lays out that Nightbane CANNOT have Psionics EVER, which is why the Nightbane Mystic explicitly notes that they lack a regular mystic's psychic powers because Nightbane CANNOT ever have psionics.

I accept what the text says. That is why I quote it without fear. What I object to is your interpretation. "Ever" you seem to like but reflect on the origins of those 4 letters.

No you don't accept what the text says, that's abundantly evident every time you insist they could somehow have psionics when the text says that they cannot. It's as absolutely contrary to the actual text as if you insisted that one Phase World race could learn and use magic in spite of the text making it clear that they have no capacity to use magic. You cannot give a Nightbane/spawn psionics, ever, there is no wiggle room, it's not open for interpretation, that's just the fact of things. You want to remove that restriction in your games that's up to you but by canon a Nightbane/spawn cannot have psionics, ever, by any means.

*Looks at NM and Axe and see one side stating what canon says and the other stating his house rule. Wonders how long axe is going to insist that his house rule is canon.*

Axe, what room? There is ether a cup or there is no cup in the analogy.
The question bluntly stated is "Can NB have psionics?" and the answer is "No". Thus the analogy, and NB having 'no cup'.

[Axelmania]

This isn't a house rule of mine. I'm sticking to the RAW which are:

Page 88:
Psionics: None. Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic Powers.
Page 119
1. Psychic Powers: Unlike human mystics, Nightbane have no psionic potential whatsoever.

There are 3 points of rule which I hold to be true based on this.
1) Nightbane do not begin with psychic powers. (That is all None means, we have seen that for other races who can gain psychic powers by becoming a Cyberknight)
2) Nightbane cannot use psionic powers. (This does not mean they can't have a psionic power, just that they wouldn't be able to use it if they had it)
3) "No psionic potential whatsoever" is just reiterating under the Nightbane Mystic on page 119 the initial points on page 88, that unlike humans and other 'Standard' psionic races, they are a psionics: none and lack the potential to gain inborn psionics.

I see no functional difference between Nightbane and any other race which says Psionics: None such as the Vanguard Brawler in Coalition War Campaign or the D'Norr Devilman in Sorcerer's Revenge, both of whom can become Cyber-Knights and gain psionics via that OCC.

Anybody without psionic powers lacks the capability to use them, since you can't use something that's not there, so 'lack the capability to use' adds nothing.

'No psionic potential' is just another way of saying Psionics: None, it means lacking the potential of inborne psionics from the race. A racial restriction is not an OCC restriction.

[Nightmask]

This isn't a house rule of mine. I'm sticking to the RAW which are:

Page 88:
Psionics: None. Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic Powers.
Page 119
1. Psychic Powers: Unlike human mystics, Nightbane have no psionic potential whatsoever.

There are 3 points of rule which I hold to be true based on this.
1) Nightbane do not begin with psychic powers. (That is all None means, we have seen that for other races who can gain psychic powers by becoming a Cyberknight)
2) Nightbane cannot use psionic powers. (This does not mean they can't have a psionic power, just that they wouldn't be able to use it if they had it)
3) "No psionic potential whatsoever" is just reiterating under the Nightbane Mystic on page 119 the initial points on page 88, that unlike humans and other 'Standard' psionic races, they are a psionics: none and lack the potential to gain inborn psionics.

I see no functional difference between Nightbane and any other race which says Psionics: None such as the Vanguard Brawler in Coalition War Campaign or the D'Norr Devilman in Sorcerer's Revenge, both of whom can become Cyber-Knights and gain psionics via that OCC.

Anybody without psionic powers lacks the capability to use them, since you can't use something that's not there, so 'lack the capability to use' adds nothing.

'No psionic potential' is just another way of saying Psionics: None, it means lacking the potential of inborne psionics from the race. A racial restriction is not an OCC restriction.

No, that is your house rule. The rules are directly contrary to what you keep insisting on, no matter how many times you try and make it out that your house rule is the rule you're always going to be wrong. ALL the text says only one thing, no nightbane/spawn can have psionics ever. Which is why under Nightbane Mystics it makes it clear that because they're Nightbane that they cannot have the psionic powers normally associated with a Mystic and have to make do with Talents.

So once again you're 100% categorically in the wrong, the English language doesn't work the way you're trying to make it out to work, and Nightbane cannot ever have psionics because that's what the rules say about Nightbane.

[eliakon]

Okay I'll bite. Can you cite any example of any race that says that they have no psionic potential that then say that they can become a psionic class?
Or is it only your interpretation that potential does not mean its dictionary definition?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Okay I'll bite. Can you cite any example of any race that says that they have no psionic potential that then say that they can become a psionic class?
….

And don't say the NB/NS Mystic class cause that does not have any psionics as a part of it.

[Axelmania]

Page 118 is simply saying the Nightbane Mystic OCC has no psionic potential since it develops the talents instead, something you normally lose when you practice magic (like the sorcerer) so the Nightbane trade the ability to gain psionics for re-activating their free talents per level.

They don't say "unlike human mystics, Nightbane mystics" because the repetition isn't necessary, since it's already established to be talking about mystics.

"psionic potential" is a phrase which is clearly referencing the lack of potential for inborn psionics by rolling on the 'standard' determination table.

When it's used in Rifts Psyscape for example on page 57 and 141 it's discussing how inborn psionic potential is focused. These psychic character classes require being born with psionic powers to have them, something untrue of Cyberknights who gain them via training.

[Corren]

This topic is just too funny.

The book blatantly says they have NONE psionics, and yet people somehow want to ignore the text and magically hand wave/rationalize psionics for nightbane into existence.

People can be funny when they really want to hope and believe something true to be untrue and vice versa.

Guess if I rationalize hard enough that if I stick my head under water and inhale I'll be able to breath underwater then that will make it true.

[eliakon]

Page 118 is simply saying the Nightbane Mystic OCC has no psionic potential since it develops the talents instead, something you normally lose when you practice magic (like the sorcerer) so the Nightbane trade the ability to gain psionics for re-activating their free talents per level.

They don't say "unlike human mystics, Nightbane mystics" because the repetition isn't necessary, since it's already established to be talking about mystics.

"psionic potential" is a phrase which is clearly referencing the lack of potential for inborn psionics by rolling on the 'standard' determination table.

When it's used in Rifts Psyscape for example on page 57 and 141 it's discussing how inborn psionic potential is focused. These psychic character classes require being born with psionic powers to have them, something untrue of Cyberknights who gain them via training.

again the question was
Do you have an example of any situation where "potential" is not used in its dictionary use "existing in possibility :  capable of development into actuality"
Since that would mean that no potential means no possibility nothing to develop into an actuality. That would mean no actuality. No actuality is no psionics.
So I ask again. Do You Have An Example Of ANY Race EVER which is said to have No Potential that is then allowed to gain Psionics. EVER?
Or does Palladium use the dictionary definition of the word Potential in its writing?

[Nightmask]

Page 118 is simply saying the Nightbane Mystic OCC has no psionic potential since it develops the talents instead, something you normally lose when you practice magic (like the sorcerer) so the Nightbane trade the ability to gain psionics for re-activating their free talents per level.

They don't say "unlike human mystics, Nightbane mystics" because the repetition isn't necessary, since it's already established to be talking about mystics.

"psionic potential" is a phrase which is clearly referencing the lack of potential for inborn psionics by rolling on the 'standard' determination table.

When it's used in Rifts Psyscape for example on page 57 and 141 it's discussing how inborn psionic potential is focused. These psychic character classes require being born with psionic powers to have them, something untrue of Cyberknights who gain them via training.

Nightbane Sorcerers don't lose talents they can still have them but it will cut into the PPE that they need for casting spells. Meanwhile Nightbane Mystics can't have psionics ever because Nightbane are incapable of ever having psionics, that's what 'no potential' means and clearly you can't offer up anything that contradicts that because your effort to change the definition of 'potential' to what you want it to mean fails completely.

[Glistam]

Ok, I an curious as to the nature of a latent nightbane? Are they immune to transformations? Can they be turned into a vampire, for instance?

There is no canon information on this, but the Wampyr O.C.C. gives the strong impression that they might be unawakened Nightbane who were turned before they underwent their becoming.

I have decided that is the case in my games, and based on that gives me a sort of "template" to adhere to should a transformation event befall a latent Nightbane. Essentially, the latent Nightbane nature corrupts the transforming force, perverting it and diluting it but not stopping it completely. I've never tried to apply this to other types of transformations but that is the thought process I would use if I did.

Also, on nightbane and psionics, if a nightbane were, for example, to step in front of the portal of light in the city of Alzum the Asylum on Rifts Atlantis, would the nightbane gain the psionic abilities?

The Azlum portal is a special anomaly. Considering the being it has affected, I would allow it to bestow its abilities and insanities to a Nightbane. However, it is fairly apparent to me from the books that Nightbane are not meant to be psychic. Even the Mystic O.C.C., which a Nightbane can essentially take, does not bestow psionics upon the character. Two ideas occur to me now for how to address this. I'm not sure which I would chose (if indeed, either), until I was closer to the situation occurring and gave it some more thought:
1. The Nightbane can only use these new psychic powers in Human (Façade) form, and can no longer use Talents that are usable by the Façade. OR,
2. The Nightbane can no longer gain new Talents except by burning P.P.E. for them, and all P.P.E. costs are doubled.

If it was a latent nightbane, would they gain the abilities?

I would definitely say yes to this, and if the latent Nightbane ever underwent its Becoming I would then chose one of the two ways I listed above to deal with it. I suspect that being exposed to the portal may very well be a qualifying event to undergo the Becoming.

This is bugging me...

Sadly my answers are less canon and more house rule/what feels right, but I hope they help.

I've given it some thought and after a review of the Wampyr R.C.C. (which gets psionics) I've decided I would stick by my rulings to a point and allow the Azlum portal to confer psionics upon a Latent Nightbane. However, this event would become corrupted by the Nightbane nature and the result would be something less than a Nightbane, but greater than the typical Azlum power recipient. I submit to you that this is where Mind Bleeders came from.

[Nightmask]

Ok, I an curious as to the nature of a latent nightbane? Are they immune to transformations? Can they be turned into a vampire, for instance?

There is no canon information on this, but the Wampyr O.C.C. gives the strong impression that they might be unawakened Nightbane who were turned before they underwent their becoming.

I have decided that is the case in my games, and based on that gives me a sort of "template" to adhere to should a transformation event befall a latent Nightbane. Essentially, the latent Nightbane nature corrupts the transforming force, perverting it and diluting it but not stopping it completely. I've never tried to apply this to other types of transformations but that is the thought process I would use if I did.

Also, on nightbane and psionics, if a nightbane were, for example, to step in front of the portal of light in the city of Alzum the Asylum on Rifts Atlantis, would the nightbane gain the psionic abilities?

The Azlum portal is a special anomaly. Considering the being it has affected, I would allow it to bestow its abilities and insanities to a Nightbane. However, it is fairly apparent to me from the books that Nightbane are not meant to be psychic. Even the Mystic O.C.C., which a Nightbane can essentially take, does not bestow psionics upon the character. Two ideas occur to me now for how to address this. I'm not sure which I would chose (if indeed, either), until I was closer to the situation occurring and gave it some more thought:
1. The Nightbane can only use these new psychic powers in Human (Façade) form, and can no longer use Talents that are usable by the Façade. OR,
2. The Nightbane can no longer gain new Talents except by burning P.P.E. for them, and all P.P.E. costs are doubled.

If it was a latent nightbane, would they gain the abilities?

I would definitely say yes to this, and if the latent Nightbane ever underwent its Becoming I would then chose one of the two ways I listed above to deal with it. I suspect that being exposed to the portal may very well be a qualifying event to undergo the Becoming.

This is bugging me...

Sadly my answers are less canon and more house rule/what feels right, but I hope they help.

I've given it some thought and after a review of the Wampyr R.C.C. (which gets psionics) I've decided I would stick by my rulings to a point and allow the Azlum portal to confer psionics upon a Latent Nightbane. However, this event would become corrupted by the Nightbane nature and the result would be something less than a Nightbane, but greater than the typical Azlum power recipient. I submit to you that this is where Mind Bleeders came from.

I would expect it to kill the Nightbane in question since psionics are forbidden to them and it's trying to force psionics onto a creature that can't have them. It's either that or it proves incapable of affecting them both from their inability to receive psionics and their immunity to being transformed.

[Glistam]

Ok, I an curious as to the nature of a latent nightbane? Are they immune to transformations? Can they be turned into a vampire, for instance?

There is no canon information on this, but the Wampyr O.C.C. gives the strong impression that they might be unawakened Nightbane who were turned before they underwent their becoming.

I have decided that is the case in my games, and based on that gives me a sort of "template" to adhere to should a transformation event befall a latent Nightbane. Essentially, the latent Nightbane nature corrupts the transforming force, perverting it and diluting it but not stopping it completely. I've never tried to apply this to other types of transformations but that is the thought process I would use if I did.

Also, on nightbane and psionics, if a nightbane were, for example, to step in front of the portal of light in the city of Alzum the Asylum on Rifts Atlantis, would the nightbane gain the psionic abilities?

The Azlum portal is a special anomaly. Considering the being it has affected, I would allow it to bestow its abilities and insanities to a Nightbane. However, it is fairly apparent to me from the books that Nightbane are not meant to be psychic. Even the Mystic O.C.C., which a Nightbane can essentially take, does not bestow psionics upon the character. Two ideas occur to me now for how to address this. I'm not sure which I would chose (if indeed, either), until I was closer to the situation occurring and gave it some more thought:
1. The Nightbane can only use these new psychic powers in Human (Façade) form, and can no longer use Talents that are usable by the Façade. OR,
2. The Nightbane can no longer gain new Talents except by burning P.P.E. for them, and all P.P.E. costs are doubled.

If it was a latent nightbane, would they gain the abilities?

I would definitely say yes to this, and if the latent Nightbane ever underwent its Becoming I would then chose one of the two ways I listed above to deal with it. I suspect that being exposed to the portal may very well be a qualifying event to undergo the Becoming.

This is bugging me...

Sadly my answers are less canon and more house rule/what feels right, but I hope they help.

I've given it some thought and after a review of the Wampyr R.C.C. (which gets psionics) I've decided I would stick by my rulings to a point and allow the Azlum portal to confer psionics upon a Latent Nightbane. However, this event would become corrupted by the Nightbane nature and the result would be something less than a Nightbane, but greater than the typical Azlum power recipient. I submit to you that this is where Mind Bleeders came from.

I would expect it to kill the Nightbane in question since psionics are forbidden to them and it's trying to force psionics onto a creature that can't have them. It's either that or it proves incapable of affecting them both from their inability to receive psionics and their immunity to being transformed.

You're welcome to that in your game. I like my idea better. It may be a bit much to say they become Mind Bleeders, but the idea fits if you consider Wampyr's to be latent Nightbane who were attempted to be turned into Vampires (which is one of the theories about them, and the one I personally like).

[Axelmania]

It's worth looking at both magic/psionics entries. Most races lack inborn magic abiltiies yet can learn them. Psionics on the otherhand are often randomly available to many races. Stating this lack of inborne random ability doesn't restrict learning abilities.

The book blatantly says they have NONE psionics, and yet people somehow want to ignore the text and magically hand wave/rationalize psionics for nightbane into existence.

This isn't hand-waving, it's pointing out that there are several other Palladium Books races also with Psionics: None who have gained psionic abilities by becoming Cyber-Knights.

Nightbane Sorcerers don't lose talents they can still have them

They lose the free talents that normal Nightbane gain as they level up, the ones they don't need to spend permanent PPE to buy.

I would stick by my rulings to a point and allow the Azlum portal to confer psionics upon a Latent Nightbane

I would allow Azlum to give psionics to awakened Nightbane as well. Since after all, it is gained from an external source, and the 'none' is clearly talking about standard random potentials that humans and many other enjoy.

I would expect it to kill the Nightbane in question since psionics are forbidden to them and it's trying to force psionics onto a creature that can't have them.

That's an interesting speculation, since Nightbane are only prevented from started with them randomly, not gaining them through OCCs.

[eliakon]

It's worth looking at both magic/psionics entries. Most races lack inborn magic abiltiies yet can learn them. Psionics on the otherhand are often randomly available to many races. Stating this lack of inborne random ability doesn't restrict learning abilities.

The book blatantly says they have NONE psionics, and yet people somehow want to ignore the text and magically hand wave/rationalize psionics for nightbane into existence.

This isn't hand-waving, it's pointing out that there are several other Palladium Books races also with Psionics: None who have gained psionic abilities by becoming Cyber-Knights.

Again which races? What specific source said they got psionic abilities? And what was the limiting text that was overcome?

[Nightmask]

It's worth looking at both magic/psionics entries. Most races lack inborn magic abiltiies yet can learn them. Psionics on the otherhand are often randomly available to many races. Stating this lack of inborne random ability doesn't restrict learning abilities.

The book blatantly says they have NONE psionics, and yet people somehow want to ignore the text and magically hand wave/rationalize psionics for nightbane into existence.

This isn't hand-waving, it's pointing out that there are several other Palladium Books races also with Psionics: None who have gained psionic abilities by becoming Cyber-Knights.

Which isn't relevant because this is Nightbane not Rifts and Nightbane is quite demonstrative that Nightbane are incapable of having psionics in any fashion.

Nightbane Sorcerers don't lose talents they can still have them

They lose the free talents that normal Nightbane gain as they level up, the ones they don't need to spend permanent PPE to buy.

Which nonetheless contradicts your claim that they lose talents when they do not in fact lose talents they can still have talents, as many as they're willing to pay for. Unlike psionics which they can never have.

I would stick by my rulings to a point and allow the Azlum portal to confer psionics upon a Latent Nightbane

I would allow Azlum to give psionics to awakened Nightbane as well. Since after all, it is gained from an external source, and the 'none' is clearly talking about standard random potentials that humans and many other enjoy.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about when the text is clear that Nightbane are incapable of ever having psionics.

I would expect it to kill the Nightbane in question since psionics are forbidden to them and it's trying to force psionics onto a creature that can't have them.

That's an interesting speculation, since Nightbane are only prevented from started with them randomly, not gaining them through OCCs.

Okay see there you go again treating your house rule like it's canon. Nightbane cannot ever have psionics, no OCC can give them psionics (if one could the Nightbane Mystic would have psionics so they already present proof that they can't gain psionics from an OCC).

So in any case when you're ready to discuss things actually using the rules of the English language rather than the rules you're inventing do let us know, of course when you agree to do that you'll have to start off with 'okay I'm wrong Nightbane can't ever have psionics' since that's the only way to read the text.

[Axelmania]

Again which races? What specific source said they got psionic abilities? And what was the limiting text that was overcome?

D'norr Devilmen, Vanguard Brawler and one other I forgot. The OCC itself talks about the psionic abilities that none/minor/major/master get. The Vanguard Brawler NPC says nothing about being unable to make a cyber-knight, and they all gain the ability to do Psi-Shields which you'd expect to have an excluding statement if it were the circumstances.

Which isn't relevant because this is Nightbane not Rifts and Nightbane is quite demonstrative that Nightbane are incapable of having psionics in any fashion.

Rifts is just an example of how PB text works. As for Nightbane-only ways to get psionics, I think there was a library book in World Book 4 which gave some.

Which nonetheless contradicts your claim that they lose talents when they do not in fact lose talents they can still have talents, as many as they're willing to pay for.

There isn't a contradiction here. My saying they lose talents (referring to the free ones) isn't the same as saying they lose the capability of buying them.

Also no, not as many as they're willing to pay for: they're limited to buying 2 per level of experience as well as other things like level and morphus limits.

Nightbane is quite demonstrative that Nightbane are incapable of having psionics in any fashion.

..

Unlike psionics which they can never have.

..

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about when the text is clear that Nightbane are incapable of ever having psionics.

I see this as the RCC not providing any. They don't have racial inborne psionics. Psionics developed through occupation or revelation are not explicitly excluded.

Okay see there you go again treating your house rule like it's canon. Nightbane cannot ever have psionics, no OCC can give them psionics (if one could the Nightbane Mystic would have psionics so they already present proof that they can't gain psionics from an OCC).

The "Nightbane Mystic" is an entirely different OCC from the "Mystic". As we can see with the "Nightbane Sorcerer" leveling up in a magical occupation instead of your base RCC prevents you from gaining the free talents that you don't need to sacrifice PPE to get.

The Nightbane Mystic OCC is an exception to that, which enable the free talents per level-up in place of developing psychic abilities.

It's also an OCC that Nightbane can explicitly start with, unlike the Mystic OCC. Given that Nightbane itself does not have OCC changing rules, a GM would need to be running a Megaversal game to incorpoate the PF rules for changing OCCs for the possibility of a Nightbane switching to an OCC like Mystic (or Cybermage or Acolyte, as other examples) to come up.

Only then would you have the conversation as to whether or not these OCCs would impart psychic abilities to someone who previously had none.

You'd have to have the very same conversation regarding any humans who did so who were non-psychic too.

[Nightmask]

Again which races? What specific source said they got psionic abilities? And what was the limiting text that was overcome?

D'norr Devilmen, Vanguard Brawler and one other I forgot. The OCC itself talks about the psionic abilities that none/minor/major/master get. The Vanguard Brawler NPC says nothing about being unable to make a cyber-knight, and they all gain the ability to do Psi-Shields which you'd expect to have an excluding statement if it were the circumstances.

Which isn't relevant because this is Nightbane not Rifts and Nightbane is quite demonstrative that Nightbane are incapable of having psionics in any fashion.

Rifts is just an example of how PB text works. As for Nightbane-only ways to get psionics, I think there was a library book in World Book 4 which gave some.

Which nonetheless contradicts your claim that they lose talents when they do not in fact lose talents they can still have talents, as many as they're willing to pay for.

There isn't a contradiction here. My saying they lose talents (referring to the free ones) isn't the same as saying they lose the capability of buying them.

Also no, not as many as they're willing to pay for: they're limited to buying 2 per level of experience as well as other things like level and morphus limits.

Nightbane is quite demonstrative that Nightbane are incapable of having psionics in any fashion.

..

Unlike psionics which they can never have.

..

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about when the text is clear that Nightbane are incapable of ever having psionics.

I see this as the RCC not providing any. They don't have racial inborne psionics. Psionics developed through occupation or revelation are not explicitly excluded.

Okay see there you go again treating your house rule like it's canon. Nightbane cannot ever have psionics, no OCC can give them psionics (if one could the Nightbane Mystic would have psionics so they already present proof that they can't gain psionics from an OCC).

The "Nightbane Mystic" is an entirely different OCC from the "Mystic". As we can see with the "Nightbane Sorcerer" leveling up in a magical occupation instead of your base RCC prevents you from gaining the free talents that you don't need to sacrifice PPE to get.

The Nightbane Mystic OCC is an exception to that, which enable the free talents per level-up in place of developing psychic abilities.

It's also an OCC that Nightbane can explicitly start with, unlike the Mystic OCC. Given that Nightbane itself does not have OCC changing rules, a GM would need to be running a Megaversal game to incorpoate the PF rules for changing OCCs for the possibility of a Nightbane switching to an OCC like Mystic (or Cybermage or Acolyte, as other examples) to come up.

Only then would you have the conversation as to whether or not these OCCs would impart psychic abilities to someone who previously had none.

You'd have to have the very same conversation regarding any humans who did so who were non-psychic too.

Okay once again when you're ready to actually discuss things using the actual English language do let us know, because again the only way your arguments work is if the English language doesn't work the actual way that it does and instead works on your personal redefining of it. Usage of the English language as it is allows no room for any other interpretation but that Nightbane cannot, under any circumstance, ever have psionics at any point in their existence.

[drewkitty ~..~]

:lol:

This topic is just too funny.

The book blatantly says they have NONE psionics, and yet people somehow want to ignore the text and magically hand wave/rationalize psionics for nightbane into existence.

People can be funny when they really want to hope and believe something true to be untrue and vice versa.

Guess if I rationalize hard enough that if I stick my head under water and inhale I'll be able to breath underwater then that will make it true.

*agreeing with the sentiment*

[Axelmania]

Is anyone actually wanting to have a serious and polite discussion here without insulting opposition saying they don't grasp English because we disagree on the contextual implications of a statement.

The fact is the Palladium Books has several races with Psionics: None who are able to become Cyber-Knights who explicitly give Psi-Shield to non-psychics.

Ergo it stands to reason that Nightbane who are also Psionics: None, if the GM allows them to switch to a Cyber-Knight OCC (obviously the kind without Cyber-Armor, like the Native American in Arzno) they would gain the Psi-Shield power and ISP to use it too.

There seems to be no clear basis for thinking Nightbane's lack of standard racial psionics works any differently than a Vanguard Brawler's.

[Nightmask]

Is anyone actually wanting to have a serious and polite discussion here without insulting opposition saying they don't grasp English because we disagree on the contextual implications of a statement.

The fact is the Palladium Books has several races with Psionics: None who are able to become Cyber-Knights who explicitly give Psi-Shield to non-psychics.

Ergo it stands to reason that Nightbane who are also Psionics: None, if the GM allows them to switch to a Cyber-Knight OCC (obviously the kind without Cyber-Armor, like the Native American in Arzno) they would gain the Psi-Shield power and ISP to use it too.

There seems to be no clear basis for thinking Nightbane's lack of standard racial psionics works any differently than a Vanguard Brawler's.

Nothing was said about you not grasping English what was said was that you weren't using the agreed upon definitions and continue to insist on invalid definitions as being valid options when they aren't. Like here you used flawed reasoning to try and justify your point. Even if there are some races in other settings that list as 'Psionics: none' can somehow develop limited psionic abilities in an edge case by becoming Cyber-Knights it does not follow that Nightbane can, particularly when it's made abundantly clear that they're a race/species that is incompatible with psionics and cannot have them which is stated in multiple places including under the entry for the Nightbane Mystic where it states that BECAUSE THEY ARE NIGHTBANE they can't have psionics like other Mystics. Because they don't just lack 'standard racial psionics' like Vanguard Brawlers they're fundamentally incompatible with psionics, just like you can't have a vampire develop sunlight-generating powers because it's directly contrary to their nature.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip... because we disagree on the contextual implications of a statement.

…snip

It is not about "contextual disagreement".

The Text is clear, NB can not have psionics.

Arguing otherwise is to be arguing over house rules. Thus, why I stopped "discussing" in this topic after I was pretty sure I had made the point that NB having psionics is outside of canon.

[Glistam]

snip... because we disagree on the contextual implications of a statement.

…snip

It is not about "contextual disagreement".

The Text is clear, NB can not have psionics.

Arguing otherwise is to be arguing over house rules. Thus, why I stopped "discussing" in this topic after I was pretty sure I had made the point that NB having psionics is outside of canon.

I disagree but don't find it worthwhile to keep talking about it at this point.

[eliakon]

Again which races? What specific source said they got psionic abilities? And what was the limiting text that was overcome?

D'norr Devilmen, Vanguard Brawler and one other I forgot. The OCC itself talks about the psionic abilities that none/minor/major/master get. The Vanguard Brawler NPC says nothing about being unable to make a cyber-knight, and they all gain the ability to do Psi-Shields which you'd expect to have an excluding statement if it were the circumstances.

Okay, good start...
...but what are the SOURCES please?
Just telling me that there is a vanguard brawler NPC Cyberknight is not helpful. There are dozens of books. Where is this NPC located please?
Otherwise we are still back to the "well I am sure it works because it is so" which isn't helpful and isn't a discussion, its just an assertion.

[Axelmania]

Siege on Tolkeen 4 (Cyber-Knights) has the Vanguard NPC listed in one of the kinds (maybe Crusader?) and lists D'norr among the races, something like 10% if I recall, don't have it on hand to provide page numbers.

Keeping inside Nightbane, if one travelled to the Mircalla's domain of Tophet in World Book 4 and opened the book that gave psychic abilities, I don't see what would stop that from working. Being born without psychic abilities (like many humans who roll 'none' on the standard table) doesn't prevent you from gaining them sources outside your biology.

A god could also possibly 'Create Minion' with Nightbane as a basis (unless I remember wrong they can use any supernatural being as a base) and add psychic powers.

I forget if Nightbane reject symbiotes, if not then Talo Mind Works are another option.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...

A god could also possibly 'Create Minion' with Nightbane as a basis (unless I remember wrong they can use any supernatural being as a base) and add psychic powers.

,,,snip

Which would not be a Nightbane. It would be something new.

[eliakon]

Siege on Tolkeen 4 (Cyber-Knights) has the Vanguard NPC listed in one of the kinds (maybe Crusader?) and lists D'norr among the races, something like 10% if I recall, don't have it on hand to provide page numbers.

*reads*
Hmmmmm
It would appear that Axelmania is correct in this case.

"I.S.P.: None. Devilmen have no psychic capabilities (making it a phenomenon that fascinates them)

"Psionic Powers: None. Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic powers. Some Talents protect against telepathic intrusions, however."

"...5% D'norr Devilmen" this is in the Breakdown of Cyber-Knights by Race which says it factors in only true Cyber-Knights.

Then under Psionic Powers for knights it says

"The Cyber-Knights training is such, that ALL (Emphasis theirs) can call upon their Inner Strength and Spirit (ancient, pre-Rifts Oriental masters might have called this "chi") to perform superhuman feats as follows
The ability to perform the following psionic abilities:
Create Psi-Sword (No I.S.P. cost);
Create Psi-Shield (half the normal I.S.P. cost);
Meditation (to relax, restore I.S.P. and heal more uickly)
<snip>
Inner Spirit: I.S.P.: ME. attribute number +1d4 I.S.P per level of experience. Considered a Minor Psychic..."

Clearly this is a canon statement that a race with No psionic ability what so ever being allowed to gain it through the specific process of becoming a Cyber-Knight.
If a D'Norr Devilman can do this to gain psionics, then presumably other races could as well. At the very least it demonstrates that races with no psionic potential can have that potential added later with out changing race.

[Axelmania]

The main diff being that D'norr can start with an OCC while with Nightbane it doesn't appear to be the case aside from the NM/NS magic exceptions so it would require using the new OCC rules in PF which isn't a stretch since you're already megaversal if involving cyberknights.

[Nightmartree]

So I skipped most of page two because I got tired of "this is this and your wrong" being said for the 20th time....so if I missed something relevant let me know

but so far my understanding is that nightbane basically lack isp and the ability to get it, due to these lines

Page 88:
Psionics: None. Nightbane lack the capability to use psionic Powers.
Page 119
1. Psychic Powers: Unlike human mystics, Nightbane have no psionic potential whatsoever

so neither the capability or the potential to use. My point of view is that this is likely a result of their racial power and access to talents which rely on PPE. Basically a nightbane never gets psionics and ISP because they are so in tune with PPE. After all ISP is supposed to be a sort of refinement and adaptation of PPE to allow it to perform tasks and be used by the psychic. The Nightbane doesn't need this refinement they just use the PPE directly therefor rendering psionics as...unnecessary? At best you'd find one with "psychic powers" who is just doing the same thing but with a talent instead of a psi power.

basically why would a race who can manipulate the energy of magic at will with their minds ever need to create a whole new type of energy to do the same thing? especially when you use that energy as if its a natural part of you, meaning that refining ISP to PPE...well I doubt it would be pleasant for them, nothing canon but think about it, magical race so in tune with the PPE around them they develop powers and abilities around it not as a few stunts or powers but as the core ability of their race the same way you or me might be able to learn a curve ball or how to type faster a nightbane can learn to manipulate the PPE within them, and now your trying to take that part of you that lets you do this and turn it into something else?

anyway, just trying to say that nightbane may just be too magical for psionic abilities, since psi is a change to the state of magic in palladium as demonstrated by the poltergeist and other entities and how psychics burn off their PPE for their power...heck they're basically "buying" a talent to do these things with their mind and have a core of usable energy for it, since unlike a nightbane they can't directly harness PPE.

[Sir_Spirit]

Not sure everyone in the thread understands the meaning of potential.
I would say latent Nightbane had their potential to be a latent psionic consumed by their potential to be a Nightbane. Thus anything that should awaken ones psychic abilties instead awakens them as Nightbane. While an external.source of psychic power can srill work, the gate in Atlantis or becoming a witch, mere training won't bring it out. In the case of cybernight training, they become a Nightbane with the talents that let you make a sword and shield out of darkness. And are 98% likely to have armor for their torso in morphos form.

[drewkitty ~..~]

To use an analogy…

The human psi potential is like having pool in the back yard and it can be used or not.

NB have No Psi Potential. Meaning, in the analogy, that there is no pool in the back yard, and never was.

[Razorwing]

To use an analogy…

The human psi potential is like having pool in the back yard and it can be used or not.

NB have No Psi Potential. Meaning, in the analogy, that there is no pool in the back yard, and never was.

And never can be (they aren't zoned for such additions basically).

Simply put, there are no canon examples of any Nightbane... potential or awakened... ever receiving any actual Psionic Powers. They may develop Talents that superficially resemble such... and some may even learn spells that duplicate the effect... but Nightbane simply can not develop ISP and thus can not use Psionic powers as described in Palladium's psionic sections.

This doesn't mean that they don't have mental powers... if one truly gets technical... all their magical Talents are "psionic" in that they are an act of will upon the world around them. The very energy they use... Potential Psychic Energy... is a mental energy that they use through their mind. Magic may be seen as "psychic" in this respect... it just isn't limited to the powers commonly called "Psionics".

Maybe it is time we start thinking differently about this subject... instead of limiting ourselves to just one strict interpretation of the rules... especially since there is no official word coming from Palladium Books. The portal on Atlantis may indeed be able to give Nightbane traditional psionic powers... or it may not. Until Palladium Books gives us an official answer one way or the other... arguing about it serves no purpose. If you want to allow it for your games... go right ahead... but don't try to convince anyone else that your way is the "right" way and say they have to allow it too, even if they don't want to (which, in the end is what this argument really boils down to). Neither interpretation is "right" simply because Palladium Books hasn't said which one is wrong.