can you wear leather armour with a naruni force field??

[malisopare]

i am saying leather armour(aka standard battler leather armour) can be worn with a heavy naruni force field and our team was saying that leather armour is not just clothing. i was mentioning that it was a peice of non metallic/non interfering clothing with a naruni force field. i am asking if we have any precident of how come teh naruni force field will work with clothing and not armour. then if so the leather standard battler suit would work with it due to teh nonmetallic nature. i would welcome clarity on that topic specificly.
the ruling i got from our gm was that it was armour>>>it fell under the rule of naruni force fields w/armour.

[Zamion138]

Id have no problem with it concept wise but if it makes your mdc get up to high for the game that the gm is running just accept it and move on.
Id allow ngr plain clothes, dino hides (light), leaf ponchos (mileanium tree), ect.
I dont think its metal or ceramics that mess with the force field i think it's the thickness of it. The NE are advanced eoungh to not fret about arching or what not, and its not magical so no worry about not "its not natrual"

[kaid]

Typically you can have one force field on top of one particular armor. No real reason you would not be able to use the naruni force field over your leathers. Even magic shields tend not to give a rip over what armor you are wearing unless it specifically calls it out such as some of the elemental fusionist stuff does not effect items worn.

Honestly this sounds like a GM trying to avoid things spinning off into munchkin land and erring on the side of caution. There are a lot of cannon examples of naruni force fields working with/on/integrated with armor or even cyborgs but its the GM's game and he may be trying for a lower power setting and thats fine too.

[Nekira Sudacne]

You cannot wear any form of Armor under a regular naruni force feild, it can work, but you have to build it into the armor.

The materials the armor is made out of are irrelevent. Metallic/Non metallic is irrelevent.

[glitterboy2098]

personally i would assume that 'protective clothing' like the TRIAX plains clothes line or similar outfits would be the exception. lightweight and flexible leather armor, in the vein of a leather jacket and pants might fall under that.

presumably the 'no armor' limit is because the FF generator Harness needs a specific fit to the wearer to work properly, and armor is too bulky and changes where the harness has to be secured on the body enough to render it useless.

[taalismn]

Typically you can have one force field on top of one particular armor. No real reason you would not be able to use the naruni force field over your leathers. Even magic shields tend not to give a rip over what armor you are wearing unless it specifically calls it out such as some of the elemental fusionist stuff does not effect items worn.

Honestly this sounds like a GM trying to avoid things spinning off into munchkin land and erring on the side of caution. .

Like; "I wear my MDC skinsuit adapted from a Blind Warrior Woman's leotard, under my plainclothes armor t-shirt under my Gladiator body armor and my Armor of Ithan medallions and dragonskin cape, and then I strap on my forcefield generator vest."?

[say652]

You cannot wear any form of Armor under a regular naruni force feild, it can work, but you have to build it into the armor.

The materials the armor is made out of are irrelevent. Metallic/Non metallic is irrelevent.

Considering they can be built into Cyborgs, Power Armor and Robots with double MDC values i think the fact they can't be worn over Armor is hilarious!!
Borg up Son!!

[Axelmania]

As a house rule you could apply the same rules that govern the P-Field (Phase World page 124) where the field generators can be worn over light body armor (MDC 50 is the max) but need to be built into any armor heavier than that to protect it, at added cost.

Given that the projectors each have 10 MDC and building it into armor destroys them when it reaches 1/2 MDC, it would be desirable to build it into any armor with 22 or more MDC.

Although I don't know how it works in regard to there being 2 generators because destroying 1 of 2 only blocks the P-Field on that side, it keeps working on the opposite side...

So at 1/2 MDC I don't know if that means both get destroyed or 1 gets destroyed and the 2nd is destroyed when you delpete the other half at 0 MDC.

If it's the latter case it makes the P-Field a lot more effective since you could chart in head-first, fight until 1/2 MDC and your front P-Field zips out, then turn a 180 and run away and your rear field stays up protecting your armor.

[Nekira Sudacne]

You cannot wear any form of Armor under a regular naruni force feild, it can work, but you have to build it into the armor.

The materials the armor is made out of are irrelevent. Metallic/Non metallic is irrelevent.

Considering they can be built into Cyborgs, Power Armor and Robots with double MDC values i think the fact they can't be worn over Armor is hilarious!!
Borg up Son!!

that's built INTO a borg or power armor, with the emiters placed all over the body. You have to do the same thing to build it into an armor.

[Nekira Sudacne]

personally i would assume that 'protective clothing' like the TRIAX plains clothes line or similar outfits would be the exception. lightweight and flexible leather armor, in the vein of a leather jacket and pants might fall under that.

presumably the 'no armor' limit is because the FF generator Harness needs a specific fit to the wearer to work properly, and armor is too bulky and changes where the harness has to be secured on the body enough to render it useless.

I agree that would make sense and largely be in keeping with the spirit of the rules, but I think the letter of the rules is inflexible on this point.

Rather, I'd allow NG or Triax plaincloths armor to be worn under standard forcefeild harnesses, but I think it would have to be a houserule and not an offical interpretation.

[Axelmania]

Basically anything that provides any damage capacity whatsoever probably qualifies as armor, even something as simple as a psychic-enhancing helmet or a 5 MDC jumpsuit or some quilted half suit.

[dragonfett]

You cannot wear any form of Armor under a regular naruni force feild, it can work, but you have to build it into the armor.

The materials the armor is made out of are irrelevent. Metallic/Non metallic is irrelevent.

Can you cite that please?

[drewkitty ~..~]

i am saying leather armor(aka standard battler leather armor) can be worn with a heavy naruni force field and our team was saying that leather armor is not just clothing. i was mentioning that it was a piece of non metallic/non interfering clothing with a naruni force field. i am asking if we have any precedent of how come the naruni force field will work with clothing and not armor. then if so the leather standard battler suit would work with it due to the nonmetallic nature. i would welcome clarity on that topic specifically.
the ruling i got from our gm was that it was armor>>>it fell under the rule of naruni force fields w/armor.

You cannot wear any form of Armor under a regular naruni force field, it can work, but you have to build it into the armor.

The materials the armor is made out of are irrelevant. Metallic/Non metallic is irrelevant.

My knee jerk answer was *shrugs* (SDC) leather armor is just clothing in Rifts.

Then I took the time to look the N's personal FF text in the merc. sourcebook. It defines armor as Environmental Body armor and Power Armor, in the sentence about it having to be built into the armor.

[The Beast]

You cannot wear any form of Armor under a regular naruni force feild, it can work, but you have to build it into the armor.

The materials the armor is made out of are irrelevent. Metallic/Non metallic is irrelevent.

Can you cite that please?

DB2, right-hand side of page 121.

[drewkitty ~..~]

DB2 N FF text.....
It much like the merc. text, it seams to define what it means to what armor mean, in defining what they can be built into. MDC armor and power armor.

[eliakon]

I would say it is this
RAW: no, you can't because you can't wear any armor under a force field. Even that armor. Or that one.
RAI: You can't stack several sets of armor because that is a yellow brick road that leads to munchkinland and beyond. But simple stuff like some studded leather armor, or bike leathers, or MDC clothes, or the like 'make sense' and is 'rule of cool' so as long as they are not being abused they should be fine.

Honestly 99% of problems can be solved by just having the GM say "Okay guys, I am trusting you not to abuse this okay?" It is amazing how often the group will actually not abuse things when they are extended that trust.
That other 1% of the time you bring out the Clue by Four and remind the players of things like the Gander Rule (what is good for the goose is good for the gander), the Law of Ninja Attraction (bad*** ninjas attract other bad*** ninjas), and of course the Bigger Fish problem (there is always a bigger fish. Always).
Most of the time people get the hint. Or the group decides that they like that sort of high powered no-holds barred game. Either way people end up having fun.

[dragonfett]

You cannot wear any form of Armor under a regular naruni force feild, it can work, but you have to build it into the armor.

The materials the armor is made out of are irrelevent. Metallic/Non metallic is irrelevent.

Can you cite that please?

DB2, right-hand side of page 121.

Thank you.

[Blue_Lion]

I would say it is this
RAW: no, you can't because you can't wear any armor under a force field. Even that armor. Or that one.
RAI: You can't stack several sets of armor because that is a yellow brick road that leads to munchkinland and beyond. But simple stuff like some studded leather armor, or bike leathers, or MDC clothes, or the like 'make sense' and is 'rule of cool' so as long as they are not being abused they should be fine.

Honestly 99% of problems can be solved by just having the GM say "Okay guys, I am trusting you not to abuse this okay?" It is amazing how often the group will actually not abuse things when they are extended that trust.
That other 1% of the time you bring out the Clue by Four and remind the players of things like the Gander Rule (what is good for the goose is good for the gander), the Law of Ninja Attraction (bad*** ninjas attract other bad*** ninjas), and of course the Bigger Fish problem (there is always a bigger fish. Always).
Most of the time people get the hint. Or the group decides that they like that sort of high powered no-holds barred game. Either way people end up having fun.

The force field would have to be built into the armor, a fairly easy mod by the book. So yes but there is a requirement of work to do it.
I would disagree on your theory of RAI as there are several examples of armor that are designed to be worn over/under other armor armor. That appears more your opinion on it than any fact of writers intent.

[eliakon]

I would say it is this
RAW: no, you can't because you can't wear any armor under a force field. Even that armor. Or that one.
RAI: You can't stack several sets of armor because that is a yellow brick road that leads to munchkinland and beyond. But simple stuff like some studded leather armor, or bike leathers, or MDC clothes, or the like 'make sense' and is 'rule of cool' so as long as they are not being abused they should be fine.

Honestly 99% of problems can be solved by just having the GM say "Okay guys, I am trusting you not to abuse this okay?" It is amazing how often the group will actually not abuse things when they are extended that trust.
That other 1% of the time you bring out the Clue by Four and remind the players of things like the Gander Rule (what is good for the goose is good for the gander), the Law of Ninja Attraction (bad*** ninjas attract other bad*** ninjas), and of course the Bigger Fish problem (there is always a bigger fish. Always).
Most of the time people get the hint. Or the group decides that they like that sort of high powered no-holds barred game. Either way people end up having fun.

The force field would have to be built into the armor, a fairly easy mod by the book. So yes but there is a requirement of work to do it.
I would disagree on your theory of RAI as there are several examples of armor that are designed to be worn over/under other armor armor. That appears more your opinion on it than any fact of writers intent.

And every one of them was, as you stated, explicitly designed with the special feature "This can be worn under normal armor" or "this can be worn over normal armor"
And even then they are fairly rare.

Which is why you cant wear a cloak over your duster over your EBA over your jacket over your clothes over your skin suit over your swim suit with force fields built into each of them

I mean, sure I guess if your GM is cool with PCs rocking 10-20k MDC...
But its pretty clear that the rule is totally arbitrary, and since as you point out they do have exceptions there are not a lot of reasons for the rule besides "game balance"
Which in this game tends to mean "cutting of the worst of the munchkinisim at the pass"

[Blue_Lion]

I would say it is this
RAW: no, you can't because you can't wear any armor under a force field. Even that armor. Or that one.
RAI: You can't stack several sets of armor because that is a yellow brick road that leads to munchkinland and beyond. But simple stuff like some studded leather armor, or bike leathers, or MDC clothes, or the like 'make sense' and is 'rule of cool' so as long as they are not being abused they should be fine.

Honestly 99% of problems can be solved by just having the GM say "Okay guys, I am trusting you not to abuse this okay?" It is amazing how often the group will actually not abuse things when they are extended that trust.
That other 1% of the time you bring out the Clue by Four and remind the players of things like the Gander Rule (what is good for the goose is good for the gander), the Law of Ninja Attraction (bad*** ninjas attract other bad*** ninjas), and of course the Bigger Fish problem (there is always a bigger fish. Always).
Most of the time people get the hint. Or the group decides that they like that sort of high powered no-holds barred game. Either way people end up having fun.

The force field would have to be built into the armor, a fairly easy mod by the book. So yes but there is a requirement of work to do it.
I would disagree on your theory of RAI as there are several examples of armor that are designed to be worn over/under other armor armor. That appears more your opinion on it than any fact of writers intent.

And every one of them was, as you stated, explicitly designed with the special feature "This can be worn under normal armor" or "this can be worn over normal armor"
And even then they are fairly rare.

Which is why you cant wear a cloak over your duster over your EBA over your jacket over your clothes over your skin suit over your swim suit with force fields built into each of them

I mean, sure I guess if your GM is cool with PCs rocking 10-20k MDC...
But its pretty clear that the rule is totally arbitrary, and since as you point out they do have exceptions there are not a lot of reasons for the rule besides "game balance"
Which in this game tends to mean "cutting of the worst of the munchkinisim at the pass"

Did Kevin not say game balance was a myth?

Easiest way to cut off munchkin is with a GM ruling using your right as a GM, the only balance in the game is GM enforced.

[Axelmania]

Then I took the time to look the N's personal FF text in the merc. sourcebook. It defines armor as Environmental Body armor and Power Armor, in the sentence about it having to be built into the armor.

So I don't have to pay extra to have it protect my 500 MDC Mystic Kunya platemail? Or it will just never be an option unless I get it environmentally sealed first?

[eliakon]

I would say it is this
RAW: no, you can't because you can't wear any armor under a force field. Even that armor. Or that one.
RAI: You can't stack several sets of armor because that is a yellow brick road that leads to munchkinland and beyond. But simple stuff like some studded leather armor, or bike leathers, or MDC clothes, or the like 'make sense' and is 'rule of cool' so as long as they are not being abused they should be fine.

Honestly 99% of problems can be solved by just having the GM say "Okay guys, I am trusting you not to abuse this okay?" It is amazing how often the group will actually not abuse things when they are extended that trust.
That other 1% of the time you bring out the Clue by Four and remind the players of things like the Gander Rule (what is good for the goose is good for the gander), the Law of Ninja Attraction (bad*** ninjas attract other bad*** ninjas), and of course the Bigger Fish problem (there is always a bigger fish. Always).
Most of the time people get the hint. Or the group decides that they like that sort of high powered no-holds barred game. Either way people end up having fun.

The force field would have to be built into the armor, a fairly easy mod by the book. So yes but there is a requirement of work to do it.
I would disagree on your theory of RAI as there are several examples of armor that are designed to be worn over/under other armor armor. That appears more your opinion on it than any fact of writers intent.

And every one of them was, as you stated, explicitly designed with the special feature "This can be worn under normal armor" or "this can be worn over normal armor"
And even then they are fairly rare.

Which is why you cant wear a cloak over your duster over your EBA over your jacket over your clothes over your skin suit over your swim suit with force fields built into each of them

I mean, sure I guess if your GM is cool with PCs rocking 10-20k MDC...
But its pretty clear that the rule is totally arbitrary, and since as you point out they do have exceptions there are not a lot of reasons for the rule besides "game balance"
Which in this game tends to mean "cutting of the worst of the munchkinisim at the pass"

Did Kevin not say game balance was a myth?

Easiest way to cut off munchkin is with a GM ruling using your right as a GM, the only balance in the game is GM enforced.

Hence the reason that I put it in quotation marks and pointed out that it was not actually balancing anything but basically a "this is what I as the system author think is unbalancing or abusive so I am going to say nay-nay to it in canon and if you want it you can rule zero it back in"
Yeah, sure anything is legal with rule zero and sure in theory a GM can make house rules on every issue in the game rewriting the entire system on every point and feature so as to be perfect for their group...
...but most GMs aren't interested in that.
Most GMs that I have seen tend to play the games more or less as written with house rules added to cover situation that have come up where the group feels that the outcome of using the canon rules lacks the proper flavor or feel for what that group prefers so they change things until it fits the tone of the game that they wish to play.
Thus, most GMs are not going to want to sit down and make an al a carte decision on every issue of combat, or every issue of how armor works, or every issue of PPE management, or if PPE exists or how spells are cast...
...if they wanted to do that they would be using a homebrew game and not buying and running a store bought game.
Hence if Kevin feels that in the system as he envisions it that people need to pick between having either force fields or armor because reasons... then that is how the system as he envisions it works. Any group can decide that they want to do it differently and Kevin explicitly tells us that if we don't like a rule to change it so that it works for us...
...so if a given group wants to have everyone wearing four or five suits of armor in layers, with two or three force fields? Great! That is what they wish, ergo that is how it works at their table.

[DhAkael]

General rool uv thum ( ) is use what's in the book(s) as a meter-stick (nothing over, I think, 30 MDC). However for heavier armour, you can BUILD IN a force-field system (figure about X1.5 to 2 times cost) and they already have rules & pricing schemes for Power armour, bots and borgs. Now, here's a kicking: can you layer over a MAGICAL field on top of that? Answer; yes... but only if the GM feels that the electronics won't be disrupted by aetheric effects, or the magical energies won't be borked by technology (as Kevin 'I am George Lucas's illegitimate twin' keeps flogging at us).

Long story short; YOU are the GM. It's YOUR game. Your players don't like your rullings, that's their problem.
I've said this ad-nauseum over many threads over the years yet no one seems to come to that very logical and universal law.
Re; Rule 1) The GM's word is law, up to and over-ruling the original game-designers written canon.
Rule 2) See rule #1.

[DhAkael]

Hence the reason that I put it in quotation marks and pointed out that it was not actually balancing anything but basically a "this is what I as the system author think is unbalancing or abusive so I am going to say nay-nay to it in canon and if you want it you can rule zero it back in"
Yeah, sure anything is legal with rule zero and sure in theory a GM can make house rules on every issue in the game rewriting the entire system on every point and feature so as to be perfect for their group...
...but most GMs aren't interested in that.
Most GMs that I have seen tend to play the games more or less as written with house rules added to cover situation that have come up where the group feels that the outcome of using the canon rules lacks the proper flavor or feel for what that group prefers so they change things until it fits the tone of the game that they wish to play.
Thus, most GMs are not going to want to sit down and make an al a carte decision on every issue of combat, or every issue of how armor works, or every issue of PPE management, or if PPE exists or how spells are cast...
...if they wanted to do that they would be using a homebrew game and not buying and running a store bought game.
Hence if Kevin feels that in the system as he envisions it that people need to pick between having either force fields or armor because reasons... then that is how the system as he envisions it works. Any group can decide that they want to do it differently and Kevin explicitly tells us that if we don't like a rule to change it so that it works for us...
...so if a given group wants to have everyone wearing four or five suits of armor in layers, with two or three force fields? Great! That is what they wish, ergo that is how it works at their table.

OI! at that is the other extreme of of overthrowing established canon... and one of the many slippery slopes. It is up to the GM to maintain some form of check & ballance. The "I layer 8 suits over my naked flesh; which is also MDC; there's nothing saying implicitly I CAN'T do that." is something I've had argued at my table a few times over the decades (yes; DECADES... "Get offa my lawn!"). So I pull out the picture of extreme body-builders, then layer on about an inch of padding, then 1/4 inch of plate THEN place a layer of bubble wrap over that and go "Okay... scratch your nose tough guy." Most players when given that image tend to shutup right-quick after that.
So addendum to the Universal law of GM's:
Rule 3) Be sure your rulings make SENSE...even if only minimal sense.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Then I took the time to look the N's personal FF text in the merc. sourcebook. It defines armor as Environmental Body armor and Power Armor, in the sentence about it having to be built into the armor.

So I don't have to pay extra to have it protect my 500 MDC Mystic Kunya plate mail? Or it will just never be an option unless I get it environmentally sealed first?

As a GM I would treat the armor you mentioned as EBA to use NFF because it is a MDC armor. However, the armor would need to have been custom-made to incorporate the NFF onto it. How much this would cost.....? I would expect from double to five times the base cost of said armor when made to be stand-alone from NFFs.

[Axelmania]

That sounds like a lot more than the usual upgrade fees. If the armor is simpler design why would it cost more?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Using your qualifications "...500 MDC Mystic Kunya plate mail", the armor would cost more because it would be a custom built MAGIC armor.

I don't see how you would forget that little qualification. And that hand made items cost more then mass prodused items. And that MAGIC items cost more then mundain items.
So when you add those up you come to that my estimate of cost is ether spot on or low.