Historical condemnations of multiple hand to hand skills

[Axelmania]

I take the stance that all physical skills are selectable and all bonuses stackable unless told otherwise. I am interested in compiling a timeline of all statements regarding multiple hand to hand skills and forbiddence of this very useful exploit so as to better understand how these occurred over time. I can edit to add in more if I missed some that others want to point out.

I realize that a limit of a single hand to hand is implied by omission since no classes or OCCs started with more than one (I guess the exception being the Dedicated Martial Artist in Ninjas and Superspies and the Open Hand Martial Artist in Mystic China) but I'm looking for explicit declarations, not implications.

In the Palladium RPG Revised, most OCCs only had one hand to hand available, but there were multi-classing rules on page 16. The example given, had me thinking a Thief could bring Hand to Hand Thief to 3rd level (page 22, 2 attacks +2 parry/dodge) an then when he became a 1st level wizard, buy Hand to Hand Non Man at Arms (page 21 +2 to dodge only) to get a total of +4 to dodge. So now on to later books which would later explicitly condemn this line of thought:

There are a couple which I think some people take to be be nails in the coffin, but which I don't, but I will print it for discussion purposes. It appears as a disclaimer in the physical skill sections of:

Rifts page 28
Nightbane page 52
Macross II page 22
Palladium Fantasy Second Edition page 55

ALL attribute and skill bonuses are accumulative. However, a specific physical skill may only be chosen once, including hand to hand skills.

I checked Robotech Book 1 Macross page 26 but didn't find any explanation in the physical skill section, just assigned cost of 1/2/3 for basic/expert/martial

A similar statement appears in Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition page 55:

All attribute and skill bonuses are cumulative. However, a specific physical skill may only be chosen once, including hand to hand combat.

Basically nearly identical except for capitalizing "all", the "ac-" prefix, and "skills" v "combat" at the end.

My view is that each hand to hand skill is specific. These statements prevent buying hand to hand basic twice. I do not believe they prevent buying Basic and then buying Expert. Now on to later books which do appear to have a stronger argument against the practice.

Strangely, a much clearer statement is found January 1993 in the earlier Heroes Unlimited Revised (9th printing page 33) which I also saw in January 2000 (Teenage Mutant Ninjas Turtles & Other Strangeness Revised Edition page 22

Only one hand to hand skill can be selected and a skill may only be chosen once.

The first strong argument I've ever seen in any book against stacking multiple HTH skills. Not because that explicitly isn't allowed, but because you could never have more than one hand to hand skill, so whether or not you could stack them is a moot question. See also ATB below.

May 2000 Ninjas and Superspies Revised 7th printing page 82-3 (though this has probably appeared in the earlier editions too)

Here's a few important things to bear in mind when selecting Martial Art Forms.

1. Each form must be used separately.

This is clearly just a statement about FORMS though, so I don't think it has any hold over hand to hand skills in other games.

May 2001 (After the Bomb RPG page 49)

Each skill may only be chosen once, and only one "Hand to Hand" skill can be selected.

This along with the earlier HUR/TMNT statement are the 2 strongest I have ever seen ANYWHERE. I concede that there is absolutely no way at all to select more than one hand to hand skill in either the TMNT or After the Bomb RPGs. It's very clear. So it's basically the other non-Wujcik books which are up for grabs.

This doesn't actually prevent stacking multiple HtH bonuses, it just makes it a moot question since you could never have 2 to stack.

September 2001 (Rifts Game Master Guide page 32)

Can characters have more than one Hand to Hand skill? If so, are the bonuses cumulative, or are only the best bonuses chosen?

Yes, conditionally. Other physical skills like Boxing and Wrestling offer additional bonuses to attributes, S.D.C. and combat bonuses (strike, parry, dodge, etc.). ALL these bonuses are cumulative. However, all Rifts® characters only get ONE Hand to Hand Combat skill.

I will point out that the answer IS yes. The phrase "Other physical skills" clearly highlights that hand to hand skills are still considered physical skills.

The "only get ONE" statement's meaning depends on how you read "get". I see this as referring to assignment, as in hand to hand skills assigned by OCCs. Indeed, you only ever "get" 1, I've never seen an OCC which STARTS with 2 hand to hand skills by default.

I would view a distinction between what you "get" and what you "buy"/"select". Spending OCC related or secondary skills to obtain a second hand to hand, for example, doesn't fit the implications of "get" because it wasn't given automatically, you had to make a choice and sacrifice options to select it.

the only exceptions are characters in the Ninjas & Superspies RPG where some martial artists characters can select multiple forms of hand to hand combat training

This subsequent parenthesis may lead some to assume it to be condemnative, but I don't see it that way. Viewed in the above context, I think it is only talking about starting automatically with multiple hand to hand skills.

This is the case for the Dedicated Martial Artist / Open-Hand Martial Artist. They start with 2 forms. This is by default how it works. The only exception (and only in the case of Dedicated) is if you opt to take a single exclusive form (which may have originally just been Ninjutsu/Thai in older versions but I think is all Exclusive in later ones).

These are indeed the only 2 OCCs that I have seen which automatically start with 2 kinds of combat skills.

Being the only OCCs which start with something does not necessarily mean you are the only OCCs capable of learning it though. There's a list of OCCs which start with WP sword and then many more OCCs which can select WP sword by spending skill slots. I believe hand to hand is the same way.

October 2004 (Splicers page 95)
January 2005 (Beyond the Supernatural Second Edition page 206)
August 2005 (Rifts Ultimate Edition page 316)
March 2008 (Robotech Shadow Chronicles page 268)
November 2008 (Dead Reign page 205)

There are five choices for Hand to Hand Combat skills available to the character (pick one)

This isn't actually as strong as it could be. "Pick only one" or "Pick a maximum of one" would have been better if that were the intention. I can pick flowers 1 at a time to get 2 flowers, after all. But at least it's something. The statement in GMG is much stronger, so people who take an "Ultimate only, forget what the Game Master Guide says, it's outdated" kind of stance should reconsider that since the GMG is the best argument against HTH stacking I know of in RIFTS (even though, as above, I still think it is inadequate)

I've mainly just looked in the physical skill sections since I couldn't find any disclaimers adjacent to the lists of bonus charts. If there are other statements elsewhere in the books I'm hoping people could introduce them.

So as a final thought, as above, the Heroes Unlimited Revised Erick Wujcik's books of TMNT/ATB have the only explicit statements I could find preventing multiple Hand to Hand skills, negating the opportunity to stack them. His book of N&S also has the only statement about using one at a time.

I don't own earlier editions of TMNT/N&S so I'm not sure if these were added later in revised editions or if they were present from inception. If anyone owns earlier copies than January/May 2000 perhaps you could clear that up.

The other books lack 100% explicit statements preventing the simultaneous owning or usage of hand to hand skills. The IMPLICATION that you can only have 1 is certainly present by omission, as I stated previously.

It's very interesting though, that the very clear "Only one hand to hand skill can be selected" was REMOVED from Heroes Unlimited Revised. It doesn't appear to be present in Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition. Implying you can buy multiple hand to hand skills, just not 2 of the same one.

[eliakon]

The way it seems to have been done was that originally H2H was considered A skill.
Thus taking H2H as a physical skill was supposed to mean you could not take H2H again. When this was not made explicitly clear they added the clairification text that no, you can not take three or four hand to hand skills and add all the bonuses together.
At least that is how the text seems to me to be

This is because the book talks about Hand to Hand as a skill with four main types a few times not just four skills.

[Axelmania]

I think HTH has always been presented as a physical skill in every incarnation, except for PRPG which didn't have categories, the HTHs were Elective Skills.

There isn't a singular timeline here. HU/TMNT only allowed one hand to hand skill while the PRPG had no such rule. Since PRPG allowed multiple OCCs while HU/TMNT didn't build in that option, I'm guessing that's probably why.

ATB inherited the 1 hand to hand rule, HU2 strangely didn't, getting a similar vague-text as Rifts/NB/Macross/PF2.

The text that initially got added actually just prevented two of the same HTH (like Double-Basic, which would be better than Expert at the same cost)

The 2004-2008 "pick one" addition seems to have been an effort to get back to TMNT/HUR roots, but still fails to be as clear a restriction as those roots in its indirectness.

[drewkitty ~..~]

You might check on the official Q&As in the rifters about this subject. Rifters 11 (combat), 14 (skills), 16 (combat) And these official Q&As might hold some answers too R17 (misc.), R19, R20, R24 (PF), R25 (PF), & R26 (BTS2).

R48 has official answers to NB commonly asked questions.

[flatline]

Stacking bonuses from different arts doesn't make sense since the bonuses are designed relative to an untrained character. A trained character picking up a 2nd or 3rd art will not benefit from those arts the way an untrained character would since they are already proficient in the basics that are common to all martial arts.

Have you ever studied a martial art yourself? Studying multiple (complementary) arts is an excellent way to help students progress quickly, but once you've developed mastery of the fundamentals, the benefits fall off dramatically. Advanced students may benefit from studying other styles as it increases the number of techniques in their toolbox, but it won't make them noticeably better at any of their existing techniques (unless, perhaps, they were initially deficient in a particular technique). The main benefit of studying multiple styles is developing an understanding of each style's fighting theory so that you can pick and choose what works best for you in a particular scenario and recognizing it in your opponent's form. Most modern forms already include techniques for varying distances, grappling/locking, and ground fighting, so if you've already studied one of these well-rounded forms, then studying something else becomes mostly academic.

--flatline

[say652]

Personally i prefer the before 2001 RMB rules but have recently updated to RUE. More occs etc.

[Axelmania]

Will check Rifters soon good idea can possibly fit I to timeline.

Places where this comes up in OSI is mind bond super of steal skills bleeder since both can gve you the hand to hand skill of another person. I would stack them.

[eliakon]

Stacking bonuses from different arts doesn't make sense since the bonuses are designed relative to an untrained character. A trained character picking up a 2nd or 3rd art will not benefit from those arts the way an untrained character would since they are already proficient in the basics that are common to all martial arts.

Have you ever studied a martial art yourself? Studying multiple (complementary) arts is an excellent way to help students progress quickly, but once you've developed mastery of the fundamentals, the benefits fall off dramatically. Advanced students may benefit from studying other styles as it increases the number of techniques in their toolbox, but it won't make them noticeably better at any of their existing techniques (unless, perhaps, they were initially deficient in a particular technique). The main benefit of studying multiple styles is developing an understanding of each style's fighting theory so that you can pick and choose what works best for you in a particular scenario and recognizing it in your opponent's form. Most modern forms already include techniques for varying distances, grappling/locking, and ground fighting, so if you've already studied one of these well-rounded forms, then studying something else becomes mostly academic.

--flatline

To be fair...
...I might be persuaded to allow a character to take multiple hand to hands with this theory (at full cost mind you)...
And then pick one as their "main art" (i.e. the one that will have full bonuses, APM, etc.)
But allow the others to grant them other stuff (so if you have H2H Commando as your main art, and also study Martial Arts you could pick up a few more kicks, and paired weapons, and get Jump Kick at level 5 instead of level 8... you would not get to add all the APM bonuses, or the various strike or parry bonuses, but if you really wanted to make a dedicated martial artist then knock your self out.
I would also stress this is utterly a house rule that violates all sorts of canon rules left and right, but hey.

[eliakon]

I think HTH has always been presented as a physical skill in every incarnation, except for PRPG which didn't have categories, the HTHs were Elective Skills.

There isn't a singular timeline here. HU/TMNT only allowed one hand to hand skill while the PRPG had no such rule. Since PRPG allowed multiple OCCs while HU/TMNT didn't build in that option, I'm guessing that's probably why.

And PFRPG seems to have only allowed one H2H, i.e. you could not have multiple H2H skills let alone stack them.

ATB inherited the 1 hand to hand rule, HU2 strangely didn't, getting a similar vague-text as Rifts/NB/Macross/PF2.

That is because by the time HU2 and PF2 had come along it was widely understood how the rule had always worked i.e. that you could not combine 2 H2H skills at the same time.

The text that initially got added actually just prevented two of the same HTH (like Double-Basic, which would be better than Expert at the same cost)

That is one opinion. Like I said, the way it looks to be H2H is considered one skill... so Basic + Expert is just as outlawed as Double-Basic.
And for the same reason.
After all why take martial Arts for 3 skills if you can just take Basic + Expert for 3 and out fight any martial artist ever

The 2004-2008 "pick one" addition seems to have been an effort to get back to TMNT/HUR roots, but still fails to be as clear a restriction as those roots in its indirectness.

One of the simplest sources of the root is to look at every NPC published. Ever. The utter lack of anyone or anything with multiple Hand to Hand abilities is a pretty telling argument in and of itself.

Then there is the fact that when the books place the explicit bans in place the wording of the bans seems to be one of re-affirming an already existing ban and just closing a "well it doesn't say I can't" loop hole that was being exploited by munchkins[sup]1[/sup].

Then there is the fact that N&SS seemed to think that the idea of being able to select multiple H2H skills was SO novel and utterly unique that they had to make special rules for the implementation of that ability... which was limited to only a handful of classes anyway.

And of course there is the logical one of why even in PFRPG it seems that you can only have one H2H skill... even if you change classes. It is fascinating to note that there are, as far as I am aware, any canon NPCs that have multiple H2H skills even though there are dozens of characters with multiple classes. This is further enhanced by the fact that some of those characters classed into the class that they have the H2H skill for, or explicitly received the skill training later (and thus have a skill lower than their level)... and thus it obviously over-rode and replaced the old H2H skill.


[sup]1[/sup]munchkin is here used in the classical meaning of "one who attempts to subvert the rules by trying to rules lawyer in something that is manifestly not intended but that was not explicitly outlawed (usually because it was believed to be obvious) and thus left as an exploitable loop hole

[The Beast]

In 1st Ed Robotech the Destroid Pilot OCC says its HtH skill can be upgraded, the Veritech Pilot OCC's HtH skill can be changed, and the Military Specialist OCC can only chose either HtH Expert or MA. The other OCCs had to pick their HtH skill as an Other skill (with Basic costing one skill selection, Expert two, and Martial Arts three). It is likely that that wording lead my first GM to believe that you could only pick one HtH form. This wording continued with the OCCs in Invid Invasion and The Sentinels. Heroes Unlimited Revised comes out and says on page 33 that you could only pick one HtH skill.

So by the time Rifts comes out my group had already decided that only one HtH form could be selected. The CS OCCs and most of the Men-of-Arms OCCs also say their HtH forms can be changed. Note it is not worded in a way to say "You can pick an additional HtH form." The specific word used there is changed. Furthermore, on page 34, at the begining of the section on Hand to Hand Combat, it states that the rules in Rifts are an adaption of the rules from HU and TMNT (one of which already stated you could only pick one HtH form).

Later one of my friends pick up N&S, which had HtH forms that took you a number of years to learn. It went on to state that once you picked your primary form, other specific forms could be learned more quickly. It also specified that you could only use one form at a time, and that you had to keep track of the bonuses separately. This again confirmed that my first group was correct in our earlier decision.

So in a historical context of my first group:

Robotech implied you could only have one HtH form.
HU outright said you could only have one.
Rifts implied it, but we had already seen in HU that only one could be picked.
N&S later added OCCs that could have additional HtH forms using very specific rules.

It is likely that some of the other older gamers reached that same conclusion that my group did in the same way. From there, we would have found new players and told them that only one HtH form could be selected (unless using a N&S form), and this "unofficial" rule became official when the Rifts GMG was printed (I mentioned the location in the other thread). Now as to why Palladium left it vague like that in Rifts, who knows? Was it an effect of their "Rule of Cool" style of gaming? Was it something PB assumed we would know? Both are common themes with Palladium Books. The only thing I do know is in my 28 years of gaming, you are the first, Axelmania, I have ran across to come out and say that you pick more than one HtH form and you combine them all as one.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[glitterboy2098]

GMG pg32

Can characters have more than one Hand to Hand skill? If so,
are the bonuses cumulative, or are only the best bonuses chosen?
Yes, conditionally. Other physical skills like Boxing and Wrestling
offer additional bonuses to attributes, S.D.C. and combat bonuses
(strike, parry, dodge, etc.). ALL these bonuses are cumulative.
However, all Rifts® characters only get ONE Hand to Hand Combat
skill. (In fact, the only exceptions are characters in the Ninjas &
Superspies RPG where some martial artists characters can select multiple
forms of hand to hand combat training. This is NOT recommended
for Rifts® as it may unbalance the game. Rifts® is not designed for the
Ninja & Superspies style of play.)

so basically, N&SS is a special snowflake, all others are limited to a single HTH style.

[say652]

Special Snowflakes abound in Palladium, yet RUE tried to squash them.
The real issue in all of this, is the melting of these special Snowflakes.
Why can't you have more than one? Why can't they stack?

[glitterboy2098]

Personally i prefer the before 2001 RMB rules but have recently updated to RUE. More occs etc.

you mean the one on pg28 of RUE?

Physical
Special Note: One of the unique aspects of this RPG is that the player can increase his or her character's physical attributes (P.S., P.P., P.E., Spd., S.D.C.) by selecting physical skills that will build and develop the body's muscles and endurance. ALL attribute and skill bonuses are accumulative. However, a specific physical skill may only be chosen once, including hand to hand skills.

italics for emphasis..

you have NEVER been able to stack HTH's in palladiums games.

even in N&SS, you cannot stack them.. you have to choose which of the martial art forms your using for a given melee period (15 seconds) and use those attacks and bonuses.. so if you have Zanji-shijinken-Ryu and Karate, you could only use one or the other until you got a chance to switch styles.

Ninja& Superspies pg 82-83

Here's a few important things to bear in mind when selecting
Martial Art Forms.

1. Each form must be used separately. For example, if your
character gets a + 2 to Parry in Tae Kwon Do, then that
bonus can only be used when using Tae Kwon Do. It can
not be used when performing any other form.
2. The use of a weapon with a martial art form, combining
the form bonuses with the weapon skills, is only possible
with a weapon kata. Some martial art forms include weapon
katas, in others it's possible to get a specialty kata skill in
weapons. Each weapon kata is designed for a specific form
and can not be used with any other forms. There are many
forms that have no weapon katas and no specialty katas. In
these forms, the use of weapons is impossible.
3. Receiving the same skill more than once in different Martial
Art forms does not provide multiple bonuses or advancement.
Remember, each bonus applies to that one, specific,
martial art form.

so even in N&SS... they don't stack.

[say652]

But I'm in my safe space and those are just facts.......
*please don't ban me, i couldn't help it.....*

[Axelmania]

I think HTH has always been presented as a physical skill in every incarnation, except for PRPG which didn't have categories, the HTHs were Elective Skills.

There isn't a singular timeline here. HU/TMNT only allowed one hand to hand skill while the PRPG had no such rule. Since PRPG allowed multiple OCCs while HU/TMNT didn't build in that option, I'm guessing that's probably why.

And PFRPG seems to have only allowed one H2H, i.e. you could not have multiple H2H skills let alone stack them.

I said PRPG, not PFRPG. PF refers to the 2nd edition. PRPG refers to the 1st/revised editions which did not have fantasy in the title, F was added in 2nd onward. 1st/revised is when many more hand to hand skills existed, prior to basic/expert/MA/assassin being incorporated from other games, and when multi-classing rules existed in the core book rather than in the internet errata/world book.

That is because by the time HU2 and PF2 had come along it was widely understood how the rule had always worked i.e. that you could not combine 2 H2H skills at the same time.

That would be an improper assumption to make, given that HU2 or PF2 might be the first book someone buys. I don't see why the author would assume everyone buying HU2 had owned HU1Revised.

Someone buying PF2 having owned the PRPGrevised would not have understood anything since the original book had no rules against multiple HTH or their bonuses stacking.

That is one opinion. Like I said, the way it looks to be H2H is considered one skill... so Basic + Expert is just as outlawed as Double-Basic.

No, they are clearly distinctive skills, there's no way we consider Hand to Hand: Basic and Hand to Hand: Expert to be the same skill any more than Lore:Magic and Lore:Psychic.

After all why take martial Arts for 3 skills if you can just take Basic + Expert for 3 and out fight any martial artist ever

Martial Arts isn't assigned a 3 skill cost in every core book. It also gives access to some techniques at certain levels that neither Basic/Expert do.

As for basic abilities, the automatic critical from behind arguably makes basic better than martial arts' critical on natural rolls anyway, so it's not necessarily meant to be balanced.

"Any martial artist ever" isn't necessarily true either, given that you could also enhance it with basic/expert.

One of the simplest sources of the root is to look at every NPC published. Ever. The utter lack of anyone or anything with multiple Hand to Hand abilities is a pretty telling argument in and of itself.

It's telling of author intentions but not of the RAW. Optimizing HTH could be as rare as optimizing HTH skills (how many NPCs run the full gauntlet of buying every single physical skill to max out the character?)

Then there is the fact that when the books place the explicit bans in place the wording of the bans seems to be one of re-affirming an already existing ban and just closing a "well it doesn't say I can't" loop hole that was being exploited by munchkins[sup]1[/sup].


[sup]1[/sup]munchkin is here used in the classical meaning of "one who attempts to subvert the rules by trying to rules lawyer in something that is manifestly not intended but that was not explicitly outlawed (usually because it was believed to be obvious) and thus left as an exploitable loop hole

[/quote]
It can't be an already-existing ban if the ban was removed from the core book, as we see from HUrevised>HU2, or never there to begin with, as in PRPG>PF2

I politely disagree with your definition of munchkin. I think the classic definition is someone who optimizes powerful characters to unsettle a campaign, and prioritizes winning over role-playing in-character.

Then there is the fact that N&SS seemed to think that the idea of being able to select multiple H2H skills was SO novel and utterly unique that they had to make special rules for the implementation of that ability... which was limited to only a handful of classes anyway.

I wouldn't call choosing 1 form to use per melee that special a rule. It clearly only applies to FORMS, too. Nightbane, for example, if they accelerate their Becoming using a ME check, could switch between their human HTH and their Nightbane Martial Arts, in less time.

And of course there is the logical one of why even in PFRPG it seems that you can only have one H2H skill... even if you change classes. It is fascinating to note that there are, as far as I am aware, any canon NPCs that have multiple H2H skills even though there are dozens of characters with multiple classes. This is further enhanced by the fact that some of those characters classed into the class that they have the H2H skill for, or explicitly received the skill training later (and thus have a skill lower than their level)... and thus it obviously over-rode and replaced the old H2H skill.

Specific examples would be good so I could see if it's a "skills include" (meaning there could be unlisted skills) or an "all skills" situation.

In 1st Ed Robotech the Destroid Pilot OCC says its HtH skill can be upgraded, the Veritech Pilot OCC's HtH skill can be changed, and the Military Specialist OCC can only chose either HtH Expert or MA. The other OCCs had to pick their HtH skill as an Other skill (with Basic costing one skill selection, Expert two, and Martial Arts three). It is likely that that wording lead my first GM to believe that you could only pick one HtH form.

These are 2 separate things. The option of changing to a higher-tier skill for less cost because you start with an upgradeable skill in no way prohibits buying the hand to hand skill normally.

All it meant is, say if you start with Expert and can upgrade to Martial Arts for 1 skill, that you could do this rather than having to spend 3 skills to get Expert AND Martial Arts.

If HTHs are listed as physical skills, then the only way you couldn't buy them that way is if the OCC has restrictions on buying physical skills as other/related or secondary. Like for example if it said "running and swimming only" or something like that.

by the time Rifts comes out my group had already decided that only one HtH form could be selected. The CS OCCs and most of the Men-of-Arms OCCs also say their HtH forms can be changed. Note it is not worded in a way to say "You can pick an additional HtH form." The specific word used there is changed. Furthermore, on page 34, at the begining of the section on Hand to Hand Combat, it states that the rules in Rifts are an adaption of the rules from HU and TMNT (one of which already stated you could only pick one HtH form).

I don't see how you can make an argument from adaptation here. The HU/TMNT text about 1 HTH max was removed. So the adaptation made it more flexible.

Picking additional HtH skills was possible unless the OCC restricted physical skill selections. The changing/upgrading option just allowed for a possible cheaper access to a singular higher form instead of having to buy it up from 0.

Later one of my friends pick up N&S, which had HtH forms that took you a number of years to learn. It went on to state that once you picked your primary form, other specific forms could be learned more quickly. It also specified that you could only use one form at a time, and that you had to keep track of the bonuses separately. This again confirmed that my first group was correct in our earlier decision.

If you want a universal rules system (appropriate for inter-dimensional stuff and Q&A forum) I agree, but N&S isn't meant to control other games' HTH rules, as we know from its different applicatios of WP, roll with impact and dodge.

GMG pg32

Can characters have more than one Hand to Hand skill? If so,
are the bonuses cumulative, or are only the best bonuses chosen?
Yes, conditionally. Other physical skills like Boxing and Wrestling
offer additional bonuses to attributes, S.D.C. and combat bonuses
(strike, parry, dodge, etc.). ALL these bonuses are cumulative.
However, all Rifts® characters only get ONE Hand to Hand Combat
skill. (In fact, the only exceptions are characters in the Ninjas &
Superspies RPG where some martial artists characters can select multiple
forms of hand to hand combat training. This is NOT recommended
for Rifts® as it may unbalance the game. Rifts® is not designed for the
Ninja & Superspies style of play.)

so basically, N&SS is a special snowflake, all others are limited to a single HTH style.

Except that you could have 2 in Nightbane, Martial Arts in Morphus plus whatever you bought for Facade, so GMG doesn't necessarily acknowledge all examples.

Restrictions about getting/having more than one to hand to hand may only refer to permanently knowing the stuff, too. IE the GM doens't allow you to make the purchase. I can't see it restricting temporary gains in knowledge by Mind Bleeders and Necromancers. Rifts Africa opened a door for HtH stacking.

Personally i prefer the before 2001 RMB rules but have recently updated to RUE. More occs etc.

you mean the one on pg28 of RUE?

Physical
Special Note: One of the unique aspects of this RPG is that the player can increase his or her character's physical attributes (P.S., P.P., P.E., Spd., S.D.C.) by selecting physical skills that will build and develop the body's muscles and endurance. ALL attribute and skill bonuses are accumulative. However, a specific physical skill may only be chosen once, including hand to hand skills.

italics for emphasis..

you have NEVER been able to stack HTH's in palladiums games.

I have already addressed the italicized text in the first post in this thread.

It only means you can't stack a "specific physical skill". This means no buying Hand to Hand: Basic twice.

Hand to Hand Basic and Hand to Hand Expert are 2 distinct physical skills.

If text had said "a specific technical skill may only be chosen once, including lore skills" that would only mean I couldn't buy Lore: Magic twice. I could still buy Lore: Magic and Lore: Psychic because they are 2 different specific technical skills.

If text had said "a specific skill may only be chosen once, including WP skills" that would only mean I couldn't buy WB Blunt twice to get double bonuses, not that I couldn't buy WP Blunt and WP Sword, because those are 2 different specific skills.

Your 'NEVER' is quite off-base, because the italicized text you speak of was absent in PRPG/Robotech.

The prohibition against multiple hand to hand skills has existed since the 80s since it was present in HU/TMNT, but that never made it a Megaversal restriction.

even in N&SS, you cannot stack them.. you have to choose which of the martial art forms your using for a given melee period (15 seconds) and use those attacks and bonuses.. so if you have Zanji-shijinken-Ryu and Karate, you could only use one or the other until you got a chance to switch styles.

Ninja& Superspies pg 82-83

Here's a few important things to bear in mind when selecting
Martial Art Forms.

1. Each form must be used separately. For example, if your
character gets a + 2 to Parry in Tae Kwon Do, then that
bonus can only be used when using Tae Kwon Do. It can
not be used when performing any other form.

2. The use of a weapon with a martial art form, combining
the form bonuses with the weapon skills, is only possible
with a weapon kata. Some martial art forms include weapon
katas, in others it's possible to get a specialty kata skill in
weapons. Each weapon kata is designed for a specific form
and can not be used with any other forms. There are many
forms that have no weapon katas and no specialty katas. In
these forms, the use of weapons is impossible.
3. Receiving the same skill more than once in different Martial
Art forms does not provide multiple bonuses or advancement.
Remember, each bonus applies to that one, specific,
martial art form.

so even in N&SS... they don't stack.

These rules are for FORMS. Forms use different rules than hand to hand skills. This means rules against stacking forms don't apply to hand to hand skills. N&S has a unique combat rules system. It involves oddities we don't see in other games:
1) 1 dodge roll vs multiple attacks
2) roll with impact is done for free instead of costing an action
3) WP bonuses do not stack with the form unless using a weapon kata
4) wearing more thanlight armor prevents use of the form, as can be seen by the PRPG notes at the back for the Ancient Martial Artist OCC. The only exception noted is Zanji which allows slightly higher but still limited armor.

Martial Arts Forms' rules can't be assumed to apply to hand to hand skills in other systems, they use a special set of rules. Even in this case there are exceptions to the "use one at a time" policy, like with the Hwarang/Moo combo or Lee Kwan Choo or Shaolin.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Special Snowflakes abound in Palladium, yet RUE tried to squash them.
The real issue in all of this, is the melting of these special Snowflakes.
Why can't you have more than one? Why can't they stack?

The Go Mental article in Rifter 18 had a physical skills text on the back side of it and it had some text about diminishing returns to the bonuses that physical skills give. If you wanted to write up your own house rules about how a MA fuses all her/his MA forms into "just fighting" you might use the diminishing returns text a a model for a 'h2h fusion' text.

as to the why's…..to prevent munchkins from twinking out chars.

[say652]

Boomgun.
Missile Volleys.
Go ahead and kungfu that with 9 fighting styles.
OP is a term that had no place in this game.
Supernatural Intelligences.....

[Vincent Takeda]

The way I run the system, nothing stacks, so you could take every martial art in the book and still not have particularly outlandish fighting stats...

[Alrik Vas]

Boomgun.
Missile Volleys.
Go ahead and kungfu that with 9 fighting styles.
OP is a term that had no place in this game.
Supernatural Intelligences.....

And you take that kung fu with 9 fighting styles, with the 30 APM you'd get from them all, and stack a few more on from the Power Armor training, and fire your boom gun 20+ times at the end of the round after everyone else is already out of actions.

It's not meant to operate with stacking like that.

OP is a term that has plenty of place in this game, but everyone has a different definition.

Supernatural Intelligences aren't the sort of thing that take center stage in Rifts. I don't even know why they gave them stats other than to point out how much you shouldn't mess with them.

[ShadowLogan]

30 APM using 9 fighting styles? That's with highly unorthodox rule interpretations though, I can do better than that without it AND do it with essentially one fighting style.

Zebuloid (DB5 pg62-4) get 14 APM (static), they can do 4 Separate and Distinct Tasks Simultaneously, which essentially amounts to 14*4=56APM. That is before we even consider RCE:### (and it's level), or other APM modifiers (like Fleet Feet, luckily physical skills are highly limited so won't factor in) which would modify the static actions and be influenced by the Multi-tasking ability (S&DTS).

Drop them into a multi-person vehicle (4 crew, they can reach ~20ft so they can reach all the controls) and look out.

[Alrik Vas]

Doesn't matter how it's done. Busted is busted.

[Axelmania]

as to the why's…..to prevent munchkins from twinking out chars.

Implying that true munchkinism is about getting high bonuses (even though it's never a guarantee of success since natural 20s trump all) and not creating a god-tier astral realm to rule with the limitless PPE you steal from your enslaved residents. The true uber char can get by with -10 to everything because they're just blatently immune to your attacks and use unavoidable assaults.

[Alrik Vas]

And we all know Palladium has enough of those. Even all those spells with no saving throws. It's a nasty megaverse if your GM doesn't like you and is willing to do a little interpretation.

That said, you're going a little high on the meta here, Axel. Why are you even bringing this up? Boredom is as good an excuse as any, but let me ask, would you let someone stack bonuses from multiple hand to hand skills in a game you were running? And would you have to go out of your way to deal with them?

Essentially, if you as the GM, rather than the foes the PC's will face, need to design a special encounter to deal with a particular capability a player or multiple players have, that's an issue. I mean, if any time a character is all but untouchable in combat your answer is "magic that there is nothing you can do about", then the players will immediately turn it back on everything they come across.

Point is, when you open a can of worms, everyone you know suddenly goes fishing.

[Axelmania]

I'd let it happen sure. I like skill making a difference. If a PC can do it then so can their enemies so it is balanced. The ones who lose out are those without combat training, as they should.

Even with two hand to hands they are still outclassed by the +8 P.P. 30s who I think are the real problem with combat balance.

[Alrik Vas]

having modifiers from physical prowess isn't really the issue, because anyone can already have those.

[Axelmania]

The issue is that a level 1 PP 30 guy with no hand to hand skill can still have better bonuses than a PP 15 guy at level 15 in 2 combat skills. I'm pointing out that even with skill stacking, PP still has a large advantage over HTH.

Even if you stacked the 3 usual suspects (basic/expert/martial for 6 other skills, potentially leaving you a bit skill-poor) it's still going to take several levels before you begin to pull even with PP 30s in defensive capability.

It creates a greater rift between high level guys and low level guys, which isn't the worst thing in the world.

[ShadowLogan]

The issue is that a level 1 PP 30 guy with no hand to hand skill can still have better bonuses than a PP 15 guy at level 15 in 2 combat skills. I'm pointing out that even with skill stacking, PP still has a large advantage over HTH.

Even if you stacked the 3 usual suspects (basic/expert/martial for 6 other skills, potentially leaving you a bit skill-poor) it's still going to take several levels before you begin to pull even with PP 30s in defensive capability.

It creates a greater rift between high level guys and low level guys, which isn't the worst thing in the world.

Yes, but how common is a PP30 in actual practice? I don't have a problem with it either, because there are characters are supposed to have naturally fast reflexes so why shouldn't that be reflected.

I don't have a problem with characters having multiple HTH styles, but they would not stack unless otherwise indicated so they would have to declare which HTH style they are using (it would have to be for the full 15sec melee round). With the exception of HU2E, all of the Palladium lines I am familiar with (RMB/WB8&11, RUE, RT 1E & 2E, PF2E, Mac2) present Level 1 HTH actions as a static value, not a bonus like Boxing and level advancement. HU2E presents it as a bonus to the 2APM for living, so might allow stacking there (though it might be ruled out somewhere else specifically). TMNTr doesn't even list actions per melee at level 1 so I'm inclined to think its a static number. N&SSr is also clear that HTH styles don't stack (though its been a while since I looked at a friend's copy) Which also means if the APMs don't stack here, other bonuses from HTH style might not stack either.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, and sometimes a master (PP20 and 15 levels of a martial art) can lose in a tournament to a relative newcomer who is insanely gifted (PP30, 3 levels in martial art).

And that's okay.

Though the master has a lot of advantages, like attacks per melee, which means in a real fight of hand to hand, he can roll with impact a lot and take half damage. And the master likely has higher damage bonuses if his strength is decent. He can afford to let this guy tire himself out, then he's out of actions and the master can unleash his attacks. It's even better if they're both Chi users, where the more experienced guy will have way more advantages.

There's more to it than the contested +/- in my opinion.

[Axelmania]

Rolling with impact doesn't even take an attack to do in Ninjas and Superspies, that was an example I brought up of how Martial Art Forms work differently, and why the prohibition against stacking (most) of them does not apply to non-Form Hand to Hand skills in other games.

PP30 may not be common in normal games, but I'm operating under the assumption we're working with bonus hogs, so if a player is predisposed to maximizing bonuses enough that they would be buying a truckload of hand to hand skills, they would also be predisposed to maximizing bonuses by designing a large PP attribute.

This wouldn't necessarily even require fudging dice rolls considering that some games allow you to roll templates which have higher averages, or play a race with a naturally high PP attribute.

That and powers like body chi or dreamdancing can add an easy bonus to it, or you can get it up with biowizardry, or physical skills, or super powers.

Since stacking is open to all, there isn't anything unbalancing about it, it just allows more variety in HtH expertise.

[say652]

High PP, another reason i like Cyborgs.

[Alrik Vas]

Rolling with impact doesn't even take an attack to do in Ninjas and Superspies, that was an example I brought up of how Martial Art Forms work differently, and why the prohibition against stacking (most) of them does not apply to non-Form Hand to Hand skills in other games.

PP30 may not be common in normal games, but I'm operating under the assumption we're working with bonus hogs, so if a player is predisposed to maximizing bonuses enough that they would be buying a truckload of hand to hand skills, they would also be predisposed to maximizing bonuses by designing a large PP attribute.

This wouldn't necessarily even require fudging dice rolls considering that some games allow you to roll templates which have higher averages, or play a race with a naturally high PP attribute.

That and powers like body chi or dreamdancing can add an easy bonus to it, or you can get it up with biowizardry, or physical skills, or super powers.

Since stacking is open to all, there isn't anything unbalancing about it, it just allows more variety in HtH expertise.

It seems like your take on it comes with a lot of dodgy assumptions about the people in your games.

[guardiandashi]

I know one of my GM's ignored the different martial arts not stacking rule and it got sick fast.
note this was a game that included characters that were literally "gods" running around.

as an example: the last incarnation of My character was "Alecia Goddess of High Tech Warfare" (effectively a minion of Ares when she was involved in that Pantheon) sometimes the character was a member of the "greek/roman" Pantheon and sometimes she was a part of the Norse Pantheon.

anyway her "primary" martial arts form was Ninjitsu, (upgraded and replaced "martial arts") She also knew Woo Wing Ti (which I cannot find at the moment) and some "special techniques" that the Gm created that could be used by multiple forms (like body hardening techniques)
"Dime Technique" in game created by a vampire, trying to retrieve a weapon she dropped in a river, (bonuses provided, +2d6 x10 to speed, +1d6 PP, +1 attack)
"rain technique" +1d6 speed, +2d4 PP +2 PE +2 attacks (basically training to be able to "dodge between raindrops" when its raining)
Mastery of Chi Stealth (+2 ME, +2 PP, +1 attack)
Sword mastery Technique, allows an sdc sword to do MDC damage, (+1 attack, damage standard damage for the weapon, plus strength damage, plus an adjustment (looks like a +6 but its hard to read) plus 1d6/level

with all her bonuses the character has 24 attacks/melee using ninjitsu, and 23 when using Woo wing Ti

my point is that I realized that having that many actions per melee is rather ridiculous and so used the "practical" limitation that the character could not make more than 15 "actual attacks per hand" IE she can "only" attack 15 times, however some attacks effectively count as 1 action even if there are multiple "actual" attacks occurring.
power attacks cost multiple "actions" but are 1 attack
paired weapon attacks strike with each hand, 1 attack
attacking 2 opponents simultaneously 1 with each hand/weapon counts as 1 attack (but may cost multiple actions)
etc.

oh and on the character sheet her "combat relevant" stats are: ps 66 supernatural, PP 71 (gl (God like) ) PE 50 supernatural speed 371 (she can run at ~258 mph) 24 attacks per melee, +18 on initiative, +32 to strike, +34 to parry, and +34 to dodge, knockout on 19, 20, critical on 17-20, deathblow on 19-20.

she has an "adaptive shield" 550 MDC (think Borg personal shields from star trek for how it works) 6915 MDC, 6960 PPE, 600 Chi, and 1020 ISP knows all 1st through 6th spells, and a smattering of higherl level ones, all sensitive and healing psionics, along with telekenisis, minde block auto, and tk force field.

That is the kind of things "unrestricted stacking of hand to hand skills" CAN lead to

[Alrik Vas]

Well...being a god, that's all rather proper, honestly. For mortals, it's a bit different.

[Axelmania]

I suppose if too many actions were a problem, you could take a "use the highest of the two" approach. Isn't there already something like that for chi multipliers? I can't remember where though. I just remember knowing about it made chi bonuses seem more attractive since they had no such limit and like SDC and attribute bonuses, they presumably applied even when you're not using the form.

[Alrik Vas]

I gotta say, it makes sense both ways, because it's explainable in each. Though if I allowed characters to run multiple h2h, i'd just say they have a "best of" from both. If 1 form offers higher strike bonuses over the course of it's 15 levels, you get those bonuses when that form grants them. Apply the same over all (init, parry, roll with impact, damage, APM, etc), but allow all maneuvers to be gained between both forms.

You'd have a character that very much is more dangerous, possibly still busted if the player went through great pains to min-max the correct forms (like Muay Thai for lightning round with a form that gives crazy chi abilities so you can dump body chi into PS and destroy a tank inside an action with roundhouse kicks of doom) but mostly you'd just have a solid set of techniques.

[Axelmania]

Thai Kickboxing (N&S 107)i gets too much credit for min-max. If you're going to be a dedicated martial artist (the only OCC I know who can select that) I'd rather go with Chao Ta (MC 175) and then some other form which gives Chi Mastery.

Ignoring the very useful sword/spear katas, I think the Greased Lightning Kata is just plain better. Chao Ta allows you to do body flip/throw, a VERY useful maneuver, and one which can benefit from soft chi to gain bonuses to counteract the -4 to strike.

Double attacks at 1/2 damage is better if you want to neutralize a group of enemies who you might be able to take out in a single hit anyway if you have a high PS (and Chao Ta makes that easier since they're bodybuilders and can get Body Hardening moves).

It also allows you to control higher APM opposition if you opt for body flips, because that takes away an action regardless of how much damage it does, and can actually cost 2 actions if you're using it to throw one enemy into another (NSp127)

I'd say Thai only trups Chao in 1 on 1 duels. It's better for cage fighting but not better for adventurers who need to take on vast sums of baddies. Chao also gives amazing leaping abilities, greater for adventurers.

Greased Lightning also doesn't require you have initiative to use, doesn't prevent you from dodging afterward (obviously you'd need some means of getting auto-dodge though since you'd be out of attacks) and doesn't nullify your parrying bonuses.

Chao Ta also gives access to demon hunter body hardening at level 12 (Thai never does) at which point you can get Demon Wrestling to pin on a roll (does not specify natural, so includes modified) 15+ (normal Wrestling is only natural 18-20) although Chao Ta has arm/leg/neck holds so using this inferior kind of body hold may not be desirable.

What IS pretty cool though, is Demon Wrestling lets you do a crush/squeeze for pain instead of damage. It isn't immediately clear what MC 156 refers to, but Save vs Pain is explained on NS 132: they have to roll 14 or higher or they fall unconscious! Combining a pain-inducing crush/squeeze with Greased Lightning means a lot of chances to make an opponent fall unconscious!

[drewkitty ~..~]

as to the why's…..to prevent munchkins from twinking out chars.

Implying that true munchkinism is about getting high bonuses…snip.

I am not implying that, I am referencing that.

[Axelmania]

Counteracting bonus-stacking neutralizing munchkin-twinking would only apply if bonuses were the only way to twink...

Or actually I guess yours makes sense if you meant 'prevent some munchkins' instead of 'prevent all munchkins'.

[eliakon]

Counteracting bonus-stacking neutralizing munchkin-twinking would only apply if bonuses were the only way to twink...

Or actually I guess yours makes sense if you meant 'prevent some munchkins' instead of 'prevent all munchkins'.

Not really.
He never stated that he was discussing the sole source or cause of munckinisim.
What he did say was that the rule exists for the purpose of preventing munchkins from otherwise abusing this.
Since the generally accepted definition of munchkin is 'one who abuses the rules, specifically loopholes to make characters who are significantly more powerful than the intent' then closing a loophole IS pretty much the definition of 'doing something to prevent munchkins from munching.

[Vincent Takeda]

The way I run palladium, pretty much nothing stacks. You could have an immortal and take all 51 styles and it wouldnt be too outlandish. I should run the numbers and see what a non stacking master of all styles looks like bonus wise... Non stacking palladium is so much nicer than stacking... If you can already throw a truck, I dont see how a few hours in the gym punching the heavy bag is gonna eek out an extra 2 points for ya...

[Axelmania]

N&S explicitly doesn't stack forms except where they say to, which is rare.

Post is about the non-form HtHs from other games.

The idea that boxing would add as much lifting ability as bodybuilding does have its problems. Wrestling I could buy since you actually pick people up.

+2 to damage on punches from boxing would've made more sense to me.