Permanent Discorporation in Mystic China

[Axelmania]

page 127

The process is only finished, and the Immortal finally withdraws from the world of mortals, when the advancement progresses beyond the ninth refinement.

page 132

Ninth Time Refined
Elixir of Immortality: Nine Times Nine Selves
This final step effectively places the Enlightened Immortal among the ranks of the deities, ready to permanently discorporate (see Zenjoriki).

Page 161

This is the first step in the character's road to the Taoist version of immortality.
That is, at any time the character may choose to Discorporate permanently.

132 "ready to" v 161 "at any time".

I'm not sure if 132 is saying you are only then ABLE (at 9th refinement) to permanently discorporate (ie you could not permanently discorporate if you were only 8 times refined) or if "ready" is more like "willing to" because you're not supposed to discorporate permanently until you do all 9 refinements.

Similarly the context of 161's "at any time". Is this in the context of "at any time once you have this Zenoriki power" or based on the preceding sentence, is it in the context of "the Taoist version of immortality" which is at the end of "the character's road"?

Discorporate is a "step in the .. road" implying there are additional steps to get to "the Taoist version".

Is true Taoist immortality the actual act of permanent discorporate, or rather, does it refer to the freedom to do so, or being in the proper state of mine (9th refined) to do so?

The "dangerous trap" referred to under Restrictions on page 161 (60% chance of failing a save vs. temptation if you do it a 2nd time in 24 hours) seems to imply that you can permanently disporate as soon as you get the power...

But is this really the same thing, failing a save vs temptation, as making the choice to ascend?

The outcome of the failed save is "the character has departed and is lost" so maybe you haven't gone to the end of the road or back to the beginning, but fallen off of it? Someone who has not mastered the 9th step of refinement (ubiquity, being able to mentally inhabit other bodies you make, right after learning to transfer your mind into a Ichild) may lack the mental stability to actually hold their minds together in whatever new afterlife they progress to?

[Wise_Owl]

I'll speak here in terms of philosophy and traditional Chinese folk religion, just so my context is clear;

Immortality in Taoism has complex and many faceted aspects to it. Taoist Immortality however, tends to be 'of the world'. Taoist Immortals exist within the world... until they don't. This has been lynched through a long period of synchretic assimilation to Buddhist idea's of Nirvana and so forth, but 'and he disappeared forever to places unknown' or more formally 'he joined the Tao' are descriptions of what happened to certain Taoist Immortals.

So to answer your question; Discorporations is touching the Tao. As my little signature quote says, The Way is indescribable. It cannot have the quality of being described. So when you vanish, who knows what happens. Sometimes you come back, other times you just don't. When your a 9th stage immortal, at some point you might shrug and decide your off. So yeah, the big difference is "I decide I don't come back" and "I just don't come back". It's a big of a fine philosophical point though.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think the takeaway from what Owl says is: Anyone who has the Discorprate Zenjoriki may touch the tao by discorporating, but because they are not ready they run the risk of loosing themselves in the Tao permanently (Thus ending the character by accidental whim of the die)

An immortal who is 9x refined may one day decide they are ready to move on from the material plane and choose to discorporate and never come back, not rolling, simply chosing to not try to recorporate and do whatever is out there, which, as Wise Owl says, is not something anyone knows until they find themselves there.

the end result of both is the permanent end of the character as they no longer interact with the lower domains of mortals at all, except that one is by choice and one is by accident.


On the other hand, discorporate still gives you free full heal of all your health and energy pools 1x a day with no risk, so still tottally worth taking in the meantime

[Regularguy]

I think the takeaway from what Owl says is: Anyone who has the Discorprate Zenjoriki may touch the tao by discorporating, but because they are not ready they run the risk of loosing themselves in the Tao permanently (Thus ending the character by accidental whim of the die)

An immortal who is 9x refined may one day decide they are ready to move on from the material plane and choose to discorporate and never come back, not rolling, simply chosing to not try to recorporate and do whatever is out there, which, as Wise Owl says, is not something anyone knows until they find themselves there.

the end result of both is the permanent end of the character as they no longer interact with the lower domains of mortals at all, except that one is by choice and one is by accident.

Of course, the hilarious part is that anyone who has the Discorporate zenjoriki can likewise simply choose to do it: just deliver some wry and philosophical comment, and then declare that you're ready to move on, and then -- serenely do exactly what a 9x refined type would.

[Axelmania]

True, but I have to wonder if it's the same kind of discorporation. Sure, you unify with the tao either way, but do you keep yourself together to the same degree? A 9x refined who can host their consciousness in 81 bodies seems a lot more stable to hold together some kind of presence when becoming one with the universe than some level 1 tai chi guy or level 10 hand to hand basic worldly martial artist.

[eliakon]

True, but I have to wonder if it's the same kind of discorporation. Sure, you unify with the tao either way, but do you keep yourself together to the same degree? A 9x refined who can host their consciousness in 81 bodies seems a lot more stable to hold together some kind of presence when becoming one with the universe than some level 1 tai chi guy or level 10 hand to hand basic worldly martial artist.

I suspect that they are not exactly the same form.
Not that the difference will be a huge issue from the standpoint of those outside the process.
Dead is dead, Universalized is Universalized... but a soul that goes onward 'properly' and a soul that goes on 'improperly' will have theological differences...
...but those differences are really not going to matter to anyone that any PC is liable to ever interact with.

[Regularguy]

True, but I have to wonder if it's the same kind of discorporation. Sure, you unify with the tao either way, but do you keep yourself together to the same degree? A 9x refined who can host their consciousness in 81 bodies seems a lot more stable to hold together some kind of presence when becoming one with the universe than some level 1 tai chi guy or level 10 hand to hand basic worldly martial artist.

[smiles sadly]

Ah. Yes, from a limited perspective, it would seem that way.

[/chooses to become one with the universe]

[Axelmania]

Implying perspective even exists in the tao.

[Regularguy]

Well, imply or infer whatever you please; I'm just looking at the FAQ. "Ironically, the Steps of Refinement are pretty screwy themselves, since anyone with the Zenjorike power of Discorporate can AUTOMATICALLY choose to discorporate permanently and become an Enlightened Immortal WITHOUT going through any of the Steps of Refinement OR learning Hsien Hsia."

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... 37&t=79261

[Axelmania]

I expect NMI is referring to maximum enlightenment, which is what 9th stagers plan to do once they're done helping those left in the real world.

1st stagers (even zero) are still enlightened, just partially, progressively more.