Are the South America books considered overpowered?

[cyberdon]

......

[drewkitty ~..~]

There are aspects that are over powered and other that are broken. And other things that are on par with the rest of the books. And there are the typical rifts ambiguous class labeling that happens around Races, PCCs and Racial restricted CCs

It is rumored that KS doesn't like the book.

GMs have to make their own choices about what is allowed and what is not in their own games.

[Supergyro]

CJ Carella writes with a broad brush, God bless 'im!

I joke that the South America books are 450 pages of really fun ideas with the last 20 pages being painfully stupid... which is a pretty solid thing.

I think it's because CJ realized the 'Christmas tree' nature of most Rifts characters, most of the Men at Arms classes are defined by their equipment, A Cyberknight and a CS Grunt don't have that big of a difference in performance, and neither is *that* much better than a Rogue Scholar in a good suit of armor with a good gun. CJ seemed to want to fix this by upping the power and differentials between classes.

[cornholioprime]

......

In earlier arguments going on in these Forums, Carella's works were often called the father of Power Creep in the Rifts books.

[Axelmania]

I seem to recall Siembeda introducing a super power with 700 MDC in the Conversion Book and the Absurr Life Node in World Book 2... Carrella gets far too much focus in regard to power creep.

[glitterboy2098]

basically, they include several weapons and concepts with some fairly high power to them. at the same time, the majority of the stuff was on par with or weaker than the rifts setting up to that point. he wrote with a fairly wide variation, and saw stuff that should be powerful (robots, tanks, anti-tank weapons, advanced aliens, etc) written up with the kind of power suited to their role.

at the time, this was largely unprecedented, especially for stuff the players could actually obtain. most of his books fell into the same mold, such as mercenaries and phase world.


since then the rifts setting has experienced a fair degree of change to the point that the whole setting fits this mold, much of it written after he left the company. however the initial reactions to it have left a rather long lasting opinion about it's subject matter as being universially 'over powered'

[kaid]

I have just been rereading both of the south america books and really other than a few weapons that are out of whack overall the power level is not to crazy.

The few that are outliers are pretty over the top ones but overall it is pretty easy to simply restrict access to the few that would cause problems and the rest is pretty normal for rifts a bit higher on the power end but thats not to unusual.

[VR Dragon]

I have just been rereading both of the south america books and really other than a few weapons that are out of whack overall the power level is not to crazy.

The few that are outliers are pretty over the top ones but overall it is pretty easy to simply restrict access to the few that would cause problems and the rest is pretty normal for rifts a bit higher on the power end but thats not to unusual.

I haven't understood the issues with damage from SA weapons. My current character is a proud owner of and ATL bazooka cannon He can get about 2 or 3 shots a melee if pressed and one of my other guys had one of those Psi-sword boosting hilts.

[say652]

South America while many powerful occs exist isn't overpowered to that setting. All the different factions are pretty evenly matched.

[Axelmania]

For someone who did such great detail in GURPS Voodoo it's kinda sad that area only got a few pages in SA1. It's nice to know the Loas got stats but it's pretty basic.

[flatline]

If you pick 6 Rifts books at random, you'll probably find less usable material in them than the 2 SA books.

SA is the only region on Rifts Earth that was designed with a balanced and interesting setting that is still unstable enough that player characters can make a difference. As such, it's probably the best setting on Rifts Earth from a design perspective.

The average power level of the equipment available to PCs was higher than most of what was in the other early books, but compared to what's available now, they fit right in. There are a few particular pieces of equipment that were poorly balanced against the setting, but that's easily corrected with house rules. Also, the Gizmoteer character class is easily abused, but also easily house ruled.

--flatline

[kaid]

South America while many powerful occs exist isn't overpowered to that setting. All the different factions are pretty evenly matched.

Honestly most of the OCC are not even that over powered outside their setting. Some strong psy classes but as typical most of the strong ones are basically one or two trick ponies and most of theirs are more physical powers such as some kind of damage projection and flight and some type of basic force field. Good but not any worse than the RUE burster.

The one that seems really OP on paper is the nazca warrior one that works a bit like tattoo warriors. Their ability to channel PPE through their staff to gain an extra 1d6 per PPE seems super deadly and it can be but off ley lines their PPE pool is really small for as expensive as their other powers are to use. You really would not want to fight with one on a leyline but anywhere else they are good but probably not even as overall strong as undead slayers are as they have much less diversity of powers.

[Shark_Force]

honestly, the weapons aren't that out of whack if you remember what the old burst rules were like.

rifts (edit: always in the original core book) featured the ability to dump an entire e-clip worth of energy into some poor sap in an extremely short amount of time, and it was always incredibly deadly. some schmuck with a 3d6 laser rifle could deal as much damage as a boom gun could per action iirc (pretty sure full round burst was single shot damage times twenty, and first level characters only got two actions unless they were in power armour or something like that).

some numbers were probably a bit high. but mostly it's just that now they look high because the system has changed.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yes they were considered Overpowered.

Note the tense there. When SA1 and 2 came out, we didn't have 50+ Rifts books coming in at the 6th world book it was very overpowered for the time being. Also a great great Great number of people blately ignore the "If you're not in South America, there's really no way you'll ever see or hear about this gear, much less possess it. So when it came out, twinks used it as a toy catalog and suddenly those over powered weapons were being used in the lower powered settings by people that ignored that cravat that was pretty clearly spelled out in the books.

More over this isn't a 'rumor' or anything. It was so bad, that Kevin himself has addressed it. Formally. If you look in the GM guide it's addressed. Not only is the power creep significant, it is to the point that -Kevin- acknowledged it and said to knock the entire book, across the board down by a percentage. If you read between the lines at the reasoning it's kinda... Well it's there to be read.

What most people that argue that it's 'not' overpowered fail to notice/realize is the time frame. Yes TWENTY TWO YEARS LATER, the creep doesn't look as bad. Why? Because we've had... literally.. TWENTY TWO YEARS OF BOOKS WITH POWER CREEP IN THEM, to help mollify the shock that came from the SA books. Rifts is known for power creep and wildly discongreuant power settings and levels. In the game industry that's what the game is known for. It didn't appear all at once but a bit here a bit there, drug out over the years. Sure if you sit down with your entire library of 50+ Rifts books and look att hem all at once,the SA stuff doesn't look 'that bad'. Because you have a literal pile of over 20 years of it all adding up. The power level now is nothing like itwas 22 years ago.

"Well if you take 6 random books" and stuff shows that's not looked at in that way.

The proper way to do it would be to compare it to England or Africa and look at the strengths of the stuff you find there, then look at the stuff you find in SA. That will tell a much different story.

Even today with 22 years 'more' power creep in the game KNOWN For power creep SA still stands out with some crazy stuff. Is it as crazy as it was over two decades ago? No. Doesn't look 'as bad' now. Now it looks like it has a few outliers but 'What's the big deal'. Back then though it stood out a great deal more.

Not everyone was around back then. Some of the folks haven't been playing Palladium for 30 years.

Some of us have and remember it from when it happened.

SOME people blatantly ignore the stuff in the books that say that the equipment would be next to impossible to find out side of a certain area, and there are players that will -literally- go though 50+ Rifts books for the strongest/best stated -EVERYTHING- for their chars. The nature of "One rifle, one set of armor, one pistol" Lends itself to this. You'll have people in.... Dinosaur swamp with military heavy grade weaponry from.. the NGR, Russia, Japan, Lemuria, South America, and other dimensions. Why? "It's rifts.... my char... er... got it from a traveling black market salesman" and then just call it done.

[Ed]

they aren't overpowered, just abused. There is a difference.

[say652]

I can't quite understand the Super Godlings, the psychics are a bit repetive, Gizmos should cost 2 to 10 times as much as a TW device (people will still pay that).

Love the AntiMonster and use them frequently, though not quite a Holy Terror they are still tough.

[Blue_Lion]

SA does have a rep for being over powered there is even a note in the GMG to nerf the stuff from that book.

[cornholioprime]

Yes they were considered Overpowered.

Note the tense there. When SA1 and 2 came out, we didn't have 50+ Rifts books coming in at the 6th world book it was very overpowered for the time being. Also a great great Great number of people blately ignore the "If you're not in South America, there's really no way you'll ever see or hear about this gear, much less possess it. So when it came out, twinks used it as a toy catalog and suddenly those over powered weapons were being used in the lower powered settings by people that ignored that cravat that was pretty clearly spelled out in the books.

More over this isn't a 'rumor' or anything. It was so bad, that Kevin himself has addressed it. Formally. If you look in the GM guide it's addressed. Not only is the power creep significant, it is to the point that -Kevin- acknowledged it and said to knock the entire book, across the board down by a percentage. If you read between the lines at the reasoning it's kinda... Well it's there to be read.

What most people that argue that it's 'not' overpowered fail to notice/realize is the time frame. Yes TWENTY TWO YEARS LATER, the creep doesn't look as bad. Why? Because we've had... literally.. TWENTY TWO YEARS OF BOOKS WITH POWER CREEP IN THEM, to help mollify the shock that came from the SA books. Rifts is known for power creep and wildly discongreuant power settings and levels. In the game industry that's what the game is known for. It didn't appear all at once but a bit here a bit there, drug out over the years. Sure if you sit down with your entire library of 50+ Rifts books and look att hem all at once,the SA stuff doesn't look 'that bad'. Because you have a literal pile of over 20 years of it all adding up. The power level now is nothing like itwas 22 years ago.

"Well if you take 6 random books" and stuff shows that's not looked at in that way.

The proper way to do it would be to compare it to England or Africa and look at the strengths of the stuff you find there, then look at the stuff you find in SA. That will tell a much different story.

Even today with 22 years 'more' power creep in the game KNOWN For power creep SA still stands out with some crazy stuff. Is it as crazy as it was over two decades ago? No. Doesn't look 'as bad' now. Now it looks like it has a few outliers but 'What's the big deal'. Back then though it stood out a great deal more.

Not everyone was around back then. Some of the folks haven't been playing Palladium for 30 years.

Some of us have and remember it from when it happened.

SOME people blatantly ignore the stuff in the books that say that the equipment would be next to impossible to find out side of a certain area, and there are players that will -literally- go though 50+ Rifts books for the strongest/best stated -EVERYTHING- for their chars. The nature of "One rifle, one set of armor, one pistol" Lends itself to this. You'll have people in.... Dinosaur swamp with military heavy grade weaponry from.. the NGR, Russia, Japan, Lemuria, South America, and other dimensions. Why? "It's rifts.... my char... er... got it from a traveling black market salesman" and then just call it done.

What he said right there.

When Carella's first (Rifts) works came out, it was like adding Superman to the roster of The Avengers.

[camk4evr]

I never found them to be overpowered, though, to be fair, I bought them some time after I bought Rifts: Japan, Russia, Triax and the NGR and Africa.

You should also remember, at the time the books came out, a selling point for each new book was that it had more powerful/stronger/tougher/better weapons, armour, and magic than previous books (not that that was always true)

[say652]

Russia was nerfed hardcore, funny how giantsize double and triple barreled weapons deal the same damage (sometimes less) than a standard Laser Rifle lol.
Least we got the Cyborg Shock Troopers!!

[Axelmania]

it was very overpowered for the time being.

I still don't see how that stuff is overpowered compared to the super powers in CB or the symbiotes in WB2.

[say652]

Demigods, Godlings, Norse Giants, Holy Terrors, Glitterboys, any Robot with a Gunner all these things predate South America books.

[cornholioprime]

Demigods, Godlings, Norse Giants, Holy Terrors, Glitterboys, any Robot with a Gunner all these things predate South America books.

That may be true......but some of the Carella handheld weapons packed more punch than a Glitterboy flechette, let alone heavy weaponry....
...and this back in the time when CaliberX, Kevin Siembieda's then-idea of a superweapon, did an "awesome" 4D6 MDC or some such.

[Blue_Lion]

Demigods, Godlings, Norse Giants, Holy Terrors, Glitterboys, any Robot with a Gunner all these things predate South America books.

That may be true......but some of the Carella handheld weapons packed more punch than a Glitterboy flechette, let alone heavy weaponry....
...and this back in the time when CaliberX, Kevin Siembieda's then-idea of a superweapon, did an "awesome" 4D6 MDC or some such.

Correct they had higher MDC than other things out at the time.
Godlings and such where generally considered over powered as well.
Most robots at the time other than missiles where doing 1d6X10 MD. GB was intended to be top of the line pa robot that warranted its own class so when you gave a robot elephant with more MDC the gbs boom bun and no need for recoil comp people are going to cry OP.

[Shark_Force]

Demigods, Godlings, Norse Giants, Holy Terrors, Glitterboys, any Robot with a Gunner all these things predate South America books.

That may be true......but some of the Carella handheld weapons packed more punch than a Glitterboy flechette, let alone heavy weaponry....
...and this back in the time when CaliberX, Kevin Siembieda's then-idea of a superweapon, did an "awesome" 4D6 MDC or some such.

what, you mean the anti-tank laser cannon that has one third the firing rate, substantially lower range, a massively higher cost per shot (e-clip recharges aren't cheap, last i recall glitter boy rounds are), difficult reloading requirements (even the 100 round glitter boy magazine was a lot better than "how many e-clips can you carry on your person in such a way as to access conveniently"), and with better bonuses including hand-to-hand: power armour?

well hey, why don't we go take a look at the original rules for modern weapon proficiencies.

hmmm... oh, hey, the bursts section tells us that semiautomatic weapons can use the burst rules... meaning, basically, anything with "standard" ROF.

and hey look, the burst rules tell us that for one action, costing 50% of the clip's capacity, you can deal 5x normal damage.

so, for example, an NG-P7 could deal 1d4x50 damage per action, twice, before exchanging e-clips. that's 125 damage on average (higher than the glitter boy), and you get to fire twice before reloading. the damage per action is considerably better than the ATL-7. a CS C-12 rifle is much more versatile, slightly longer range than the NG-P7, but only offers 4d6x5 twice before reloading (still, that's equivalent to 4d6x10 every 3 actions... better over time damage than the ATL-7), and had basically a second e-clip built in (so you can get 4 shots before reloading the first time), or at least, that's how it worked in the RMB (the modern version is capped at a 5-round burst). the C-27, which also had a standard rate of fire, could therefore deal 6d6x5 twice before reloading, roughly equivalent to 3d6x10, and thus also fairly close to the ATL-7 (and approximately matching the boom gun, at least for the first two actions).

is it *really* that hard to imagine that in south america they developed a purpose-built laser that trades in payload and efficiency for range? and am i supposed to believe that this is some horribly imbalanced option compared to core?

the original RMB had a handheld (in fact, much more portable, not to mention less expensive) weapon that could deal more damage than a boom gun, and arguably does it better than the ATL-7. why am i supposed to be upset that south america also did? but hey, sure, let's all blame C J Carella for that. clearly it was all his fault.

[Axelmania]

some of the Carella handheld weapons packed more punch than a Glitterboy flechette, let alone heavy weaponry....

That laser cannon which uses up a whole E-clip had inferior range and I'd think of it more as shoulder-mounted than handheld, kinda like a missile launcher. The hand does hold a handle to aim and fire it, sure, but where's most of the weight?

...and this back in the time when CaliberX, Kevin Siembieda's then-idea of a superweapon, did an "awesome" 4D6 MDC or some such.

You mean in England, the book after the one with the 2D4x10 MD rune swords?

[quote="Blue_Lion"
Most robots at the time other than missiles where doing 1d6X10 MD. GB was intended to be top of the line pa robot that warranted its own class so when you gave a robot elephant with more MDC the gbs boom bun and no need for recoil comp people are going to cry OP.[/quote]
Except that KS already established in Rifts Africa that you could detach a boom gun from a glitter boy and still use it (2 NPCs did this, without any known modifications) so throwing them on a giant elephant robot kinda makes sense.

[Blue_Lion]

They may not have stated what the modifications where but some modification had to be made as the weapon requires a power source. Ono of those was war that if I recall had the ability to use any weapon and the other I think was godling. Not what I will call standard. Both of them where designed to be over powered, one as a boss.

[Axelmania]

The two I remember having them was Anhur the lion god and Sobek the crocodile god.

Since no modifications or mentioned, Boom Guns probably have their own built-in nuclear batteries.

Considering how big they are, you could probably fit a backpack sized nuclear generator into one.

[grimmhold]

The people who say C.J. brought in the power creep and that his S.A. books were over powered are clearly K.S. fanboys who back K.S. up in regards for their hate on C.J. Rifts is a power creep line. From the start Rifts had tons of power creep. Juicers in melee combat. Heavy cyborgs. Shifters. LL Walkers. Glitter Boys. Robots with a gunner. I mean, come one, Atlantis was 100% pure power creep. Bio Borgs, Conservator R.C.C., Atlantean Undead Hunters. I mean the power tattoo that gives 75 m.d.c. per level is not power creep?

Warning: For trolling

[say652]

Rmb JA11, ion 4D6md standard rate of fire. I laugh at these Boomgun references.

[Supergyro]

CJ Carella wanted to convey a wide range of technological capabilities.

So yes, some people from incredibly high technology empires had guns that did much more damage than people from much lower technology..... which is how technology works.

The desire for 'balance' in a setting which is supposed to have such a wide diversity of technologies and capabilities can only lead to madness.... and it's that Madness that turned the Rifts GM's guide into a bit of a joke.... dozens of rifles from dozens of empires ad dozens of different levels of magic/psionic/technological ability........ and yet all do 4D6.....

[Blue_Lion]

The two I remember having them was Anhur the lion god and Sobek the crocodile god.

Since no modifications or mentioned, Boom Guns probably have their own built-in nuclear batteries.

Considering how big they are, you could probably fit a backpack sized nuclear generator into one.

So you think it is logical that no modifications where made to the boom guns for the gods.
A defualt boom gun is attached the nuclear power plant of the GB, if the boom gun had its own built in power supply that would be worth mentioning because it would have a separate life span from the GB.
A god having a boom gun does not justify common people having a boom gun.
We know the boom gun is modified because it is no longer attached to the GB it came with(any change is a modification) and that is a modification we just do not know to what extent it is modified as that is not relevant to the npc.

[Willy Elektrix]

For the record, I really like the SA setting. I think that nations are cool and imaginative. I like that setting is based around the conflicts between its various factions. I also think it ties nicely in with the Atlantis, Mexico, and Underseas world books.

[The Beast]

the original RMB had a handheld (in fact, much more portable, not to mention less expensive) weapon that could deal more damage than a boom gun, and arguably does it better than the ATL-7. why am i supposed to be upset that south america also did? but hey, sure, let's all blame C J Carella for that. clearly it was all his fault.

Which weapon is this?

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[glitterboy2098]

Just about all of them using the 'rate of fire standard' because that used the burst rules where you could expend a full clip for massive damage multipliers. A L20 laser rifle doing a full melee burst could rival a boomgun in damage at the expense of using up a full eclip, and the C-27 plasma ejector, on a full melee burst, could slag a glitterboy completely.

This was why PB switched the meaning of 'standard rate of fire' to mean single shot only for md guns and burst fire rules for SDC guns

[Nightmask]

CJ Carella wanted to convey a wide range of technological capabilities.

So yes, some people from incredibly high technology empires had guns that did much more damage than people from much lower technology..... which is how technology works.

The desire for 'balance' in a setting which is supposed to have such a wide diversity of technologies and capabilities can only lead to madness.... and it's that Madness that turned the Rifts GM's guide into a bit of a joke.... dozens of rifles from dozens of empires ad dozens of different levels of magic/psionic/technological ability........ and yet all do 4D6.....

Plus the ongoing madness that giant robots almost always have the same or worse MDC than the guys running around in power armor, with their weapons also no better than what the power armor and body armor types are carrying.

[Axelmania]

So you think it is logical that no modifications where made to the boom guns for the gods.

Yes, because a precedent is set on page 46 that it tells you when weapons are specially designed for Anhur.

The Modified Mini-Missile Launcher: "bands that were specially designed for him"
The Mini-Missile Cannon: "It too was specifically built for Anhur"

The lack of any such text in Anhur's boom gun description implies no modifications.

A defualt boom gun is attached the nuclear power plant of the GB, if the boom gun had its own built in power supply that would be worth mentioning because it would have a separate life span from the GB.

I've never seen any description of the power armor stating that the BG is linked to the GB's power supply, and there's no visible means of transferring that power.

A god having a boom gun does not justify common people having a boom gun.

Common people wouldn't have a supernatural PS of 40 like Sebek does, I'd designate that the minimum even though none is stated. Sebek couldn't use Anhur's MMC due to it requiring an SNPS of 50 and that thing can't be that much bigger than a boom gun.

We know the boom gun is modified because it is no longer attached to the GB it came with(any change is a modification) and that is a modification we just do not know to what extent it is modified as that is not relevant to the npc.

KS found it relevant to mention the MMML and MMC were modified, this implies the BG isn't.

Detachment from armor isn't necessarily invasive enough to label a modification. It certainly wouldn't mean we should assume it needed a power supply put in.

the original RMB had a handheld (in fact, much more portable, not to mention less expensive) weapon that could deal more damage than a boom gun, and arguably does it better than the ATL-7. why am i supposed to be upset that south america also did? but hey, sure, let's all blame C J Carella for that. clearly it was all his fault.

Which weapon is this?

He mentioned it earlier:

an NG-P7 could deal 1d4x50 damage per action, twice, before exchanging e-clips. that's 125 damage on average (higher than the glitter boy), and you get to fire twice before reloading. the damage per action is considerably better than the ATL-7.

Of course, SA probably came out after CB nerfed the bursting rules to x3 / x7 for medium/long so we should probably weigh in respect to that.

Plus the ongoing madness that giant robots almost always have the same or worse MDC than the guys running around in power armor, with their weapons also no better than what the power armor and body armor types are carrying.

Damage-wise pretty much, but robots tend to have better range options and missile capabilities. Plus being able to take passengers or relax out of armor shouldn't be underestimated.

[cornholioprime]

The people who say C.J. brought in the power creep and that his S.A. books were over powered are clearly K.S. fanboys who back K.S. up in regards for their hate on C.J. Rifts is a power creep line. From the start Rifts had tons of power creep. Juicers in melee combat. Heavy cyborgs. Shifters. LL Walkers. Glitter Boys. Robots with a gunner. I mean, come one, Atlantis was 100% pure power creep. Bio Borgs, Conservator R.C.C., Atlantean Undead Hunters. I mean the power tattoo that gives 75 m.d.c. per level is not power creep?

You have no idea of what you're talking about.

Most everyone I ever saw in these forums who complained about C.J. Carella's Power Creep....nevertheless loved the man and his creations.

Rifts, Nightbane, Pantheons of the Megaverse and otherwise.

In these forums, he's probably about as well-liked an RPG writer as The Wuj was.

EDIT: I don't have my books with me at the moment. Fellas, did C.J. also give us Phase World?

[jaymz]

Yes phaseworld as a setting was his baby.

[Marcus]

This thread got me curious, so I got the first book off of Drivethrurpg.
Not much I can add to the discussion though

[tsh77769]

No. They are not. And, if they ever were, they are certainly not any longer given current material and context.

TSH77769

[Killer Cyborg]

It might help if people discussing the power level of main book weapons would get their stats right.
Also, it would be useful if people understood the differences between "power" and "power creep."

Arguments along the lines of "if a character could achieve a high level of power by having rare super powers or by linking themselves physically and permanently to another life form, then standard infantry should be able to achieve similar power levels via common gear" miss the boat.

[jaymz]

The people who say C.J. brought in the power creep and that his S.A. books were over powered are clearly K.S. fanboys who back K.S. up in regards for their hate on C.J. Rifts is a power creep line. From the start Rifts had tons of power creep. Juicers in melee combat. Heavy cyborgs. Shifters. LL Walkers. Glitter Boys. Robots with a gunner. I mean, come one, Atlantis was 100% pure power creep. Bio Borgs, Conservator R.C.C., Atlantean Undead Hunters. I mean the power tattoo that gives 75 m.d.c. per level is not power creep?

You have no idea of what you're talking about.

Most everyone I ever saw in these forums who complained about C.J. Carella's Power Creep....nevertheless loved the man and his creations.

Rifts, Nightbane, Pantheons of the Megaverse and otherwise.

In these forums, he's probably about as well-liked an RPG writer as The Wuj was.

EDIT: I don't have my books with me at the moment. Fellas, did C.J. also give us Phase World?

With all due respect Corn, i have seen what he talks about a number of times over the years, including phaseworld in the mix.

The SA books have a few very specific items that may be considered overpowered (and frankly an anti tank laser that requires 3-4 actions to get your next shot off isnt) but the books overall are not "overpowered". If GMs are stupid enough to let some of those items be had in games other than in SA then thats on them and does not make the books broken or overpowered. No more so than if you allow certain bots or borgs from triax/atlantis/japan in areas like england or australia yet a number of people on these forums refuse the acknowkedge that as they think kevin didn't do anything wrong while CJ is the boogy man of power creep. The above mentioned books were written during the same time periods as the SA books and frankly kevin himself had approve the stuff so he oviously saw nothing wrong with it at the time (and looking at the power creep he himself created one can see why) however throwing that material under the bus years later in the GM guide is, to be honest, a dick move.

It goes to phaseworld as well with people complaining about ship numbers etc and he "has no clue what he is doing" and they continue to say such even after myself and others explain why the numbers would make sense yet they will praise the absolutely arse-pulled numbers that is fleets of the three galaxies.....and the only reason i can see is CJ is the boogy man of power creep.

Hell I have seem people complain NightSPAWN is over powered as well.

For someone so well liked a lot of people complain about his work across the board yet these same peoole do not say a peep about the large power creep kevin himself created.

[cornholioprime]

The people who say C.J. brought in the power creep and that his S.A. books were over powered are clearly K.S. fanboys who back K.S. up in regards for their hate on C.J. Rifts is a power creep line. From the start Rifts had tons of power creep. Juicers in melee combat. Heavy cyborgs. Shifters. LL Walkers. Glitter Boys. Robots with a gunner. I mean, come one, Atlantis was 100% pure power creep. Bio Borgs, Conservator R.C.C., Atlantean Undead Hunters. I mean the power tattoo that gives 75 m.d.c. per level is not power creep?

You have no idea of what you're talking about.

Most everyone I ever saw in these forums who complained about C.J. Carella's Power Creep....nevertheless loved the man and his creations.

Rifts, Nightbane, Pantheons of the Megaverse and otherwise.

In these forums, he's probably about as well-liked an RPG writer as The Wuj was.

EDIT: I don't have my books with me at the moment. Fellas, did C.J. also give us Phase World?

With all due respect Corn, i have seen what he talks about a number of times over the years, including phaseworld in the mix.

The SA books have a few very specific items that may be considered overpowered (and frankly an anti tank laser that requires 3-4 actions to get your next shot off isnt) but the books overall are not "overpowered". If GMs are stupid enough to let some of those items be had in games other than in SA then thats on them and does not make the books broken or overpowered. No more so than if you allow certain bots or borgs from triax/atlantis/japan in areas like england or australia yet a number of people on these forums refuse the acknowkedge that as they think kevin didn't do anything wrong while CJ is the boogy man of power creep. The above mentioned books were written during the same time periods as the SA books and frankly kevin himself had approve the stuff so he oviously saw nothing wrong with it at the time (and looking at the power creep he himself created one can see why) however throwing that material under the bus years later in the GM guide is, to be honest, a dick move.

It goes to phaseworld as well with people complaining about ship numbers etc and he "has no clue what he is doing" and they continue to say such even after myself and others explain why the numbers would make sense yet they will praise the absolutely arse-pulled numbers that is fleets of the three galaxies.....and the only reason i can see is CJ is the boogy man of power creep.

Hell I have seem people complain NightSPAWN is over powered as well.

For someone so well liked a lot of people complain about his work across the board yet these same peoole do not say a peep about the large power creep kevin himself created.

As the colored text indicated, I was referring to his assertion that those of us who complain about Carella's power creep, are only doing so because we "love" Kevin and "hate" C.J.

[jaymz]

For someone so well liked a lot of people complain about his work across the board yet these same peoole do not say a peep about the large power creep kevin himself created.

As the colored text indicated, I was referring to his assertion that those of us who complain about Carella's power creep, are only doing so because we "love" Kevin and "hate" C.J.

And as the last line of what I said, that you quoted, shows, he isn't completely wrong about it either.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Actually no. Some that point out the book was overpowered -when it came out- have pointed out that it doesn't -appear- so bad -now- as there's been over ----TWO DECADES---- of power creep to catch up and make it look some what standard. It was more than just the one gun in SA that made it over powered. But yes. Some of us acknowledge that after SA the power creep continued, book by book till you're at where we are today. TWENTY TWO YEARS LATER. (People some how seem to fail to wrap their minds about that)

It was more than just one gun, as well. I mean there were cats that started out at 100+MDC (That continued to increase), that could out fly a super samus (Which came later), and who's hand to hand attacks did MD damage, had mental blasts that -start- as strong as heavy rifles at that point (4D6) and just went up. by level 5 they were doing 8D6, by lvl 9 "Experienced Adventurer" They're at 12D6 MDC per blast, had horror factor of 10 as well as custom body armor on top of that, and modern weapons and such.

Another had supernatural strength, starts at 160MDC +10 per level, does MDC Damage in hand to hand, bio regeneration, forcefields, psionci blasts, other psionic powers including up to 4 from the super category which is strictly limited in Rifts, and more so at that point in the game. meaning these psychos could come at you with Psiswords as well as the list before, MDC claws, frenzy bonuses, rocket rifles, heavy MD Armor (On top of armor that was already heavier than what you could buy at that point in time) etc.

Ships with 28,000 MDC (which should be noted is almost half again more than the flippin' Ticonderoga from later books)

Now today you look at some of that with 50+ Books and you can go "Well this book over here has a class about that strong... and that one over there has one too. "

But as of world book 6. No. You didn't see that level of power across the board.

And yes, as I've pointed out before and Jaymz reiterated, the SA books (And many others) Were not meant to 'MIX'. The technology and powers and what not were meant to be isolated and contained in their own area. At that time 'travel' from one section of rifts earth to another was more dangerous than inter-dimensional travel. (Or so it was portrayed.) This is stated straight up in the books, but also has been pointed out, LARGELY IGNORED by a great number of people.

When they saw "Pick one pistol, one rifle and one set of armor" Some would open --every book they had-- to the equipment sections and went through looking for the highest numbers. And some folks still do it. So that was part of the equation as well.

In part, "Rifts' Lent itself to this mentality. "Well how did you get that ultra strong rifle from South America? It'd take years to travel there, years to travel back and you'd have to make it through the vampire kingdoms twice to do it." Answer? "Random rift opened. Guy came through and Died/sold it to me. Boom done!" Silly? yes, but..... possible in the setting and such an 'easy' answer that it was used over and over and over. that or 'Black market wagon had one when it rolled through last month"

So even in spite of many of the technologies and settings being purposefully written as stand alone, many players never kept them that way nd at the very least data-mined the books for the most powerful stuff they could carry.


So... at the time, they were overpowered when you put them up beside... England.. or Africa. By a good bit.

Do I think they deserved to be thrown under the bus? I think they deserved to be called out for their power, but as the Rifts game has significant power-creep over the years (With clear ones that were nerfed seemingly for no reason... Russia.... NG1/2... )) I don't think that the writer should be slammed for it.

As pointed out Kevin published them all. If he didn't read them before hand that's on him. It's not like CJ was the only one to increase the power. His just had a significant jump -at the time- that stood out to the point it still stands tall among books after -LITERAL DECADES- of -more- creep.

[Shark_Force]

Actually no. Some that point out the book was overpowered -when it came out- have pointed out that it doesn't -appear- so bad -now- as there's been over ----TWO DECADES---- of power creep to catch up and make it look some what standard. It was more than just the one gun in SA that made it over powered. But yes. Some of us acknowledge that after SA the power creep continued, book by book till you're at where we are today. TWENTY TWO YEARS LATER. (People some how seem to fail to wrap their minds about that)

It was more than just one gun, as well. I mean there were cats that started out at 100+MDC (That continued to increase), that could out fly a super samus (Which came later), and who's hand to hand attacks did MD damage, had mental blasts that -start- as strong as heavy rifles at that point (4D6) and just went up. by level 5 they were doing 8D6, by lvl 9 "Experienced Adventurer" They're at 12D6 MDC per blast, had horror factor of 10 as well as custom body armor on top of that, and modern weapons and such.

Another had supernatural strength, starts at 160MDC +10 per level, does MDC Damage in hand to hand, bio regeneration, forcefields, psionci blasts, other psionic powers including up to 4 from the super category which is strictly limited in Rifts, and more so at that point in the game. meaning these psychos could come at you with Psiswords as well as the list before, MDC claws, frenzy bonuses, rocket rifles, heavy MD Armor (On top of armor that was already heavier than what you could buy at that point in time) etc.

Ships with 28,000 MDC (which should be noted is almost half again more than the flippin' Ticonderoga from later books)

and?

the super-tough ships *should* be super-tough. having a massive aircraft carrier that isn't 28,000 MDC is the stupid thing. in SDC settings a car has ~200 SDC, a tank has ~2,000 SDC (and much higher AR), how much do you think an aircraft carrier should have based on this progression? it certainly shouldn't be a small number. for some reason it is in rifts, of course... a care has about 200 MDC and a tank has about 400-600 MDC, most of the time, which is pretty silly.

those cats? big deal. fast flight isn't that overpowered. the psychic TK blasts? slightly better than a railgun. maybe. after a few levels. whatever shall we do. hand to hand ability to deal MD? oh no, was it almost as good as having a RMB stock model of the laser welder? so broken!

the cats were pretty tough. fairly comparable to a good suit of power armour, really, once they gained a few levels. but still, not really any worse than what you could play if you used only the RMB.

there has been some degree of power creep. the south america books have contributed some of that, certainly (as has pretty much every other book, each of which generally has at least something that improves if only in some minor but stacking way). but they were not the giant leap that most people are talking about. weapons, in particular, were generally not more powerful than what you could find in the RMB (the psychics in south america were certainly much more powerful than RMB psychics, but not more powerful than stuff in the books that came out around the same time in general).

now, you could make the argument that south america was *supposed* to be a lot less technologically advanced than north america, and that therefore their tech-based gear is better than it should be because it frankly is pretty comparable to north american tech of the time. if you wish to make that argument, i wouldn't disagree; south american tech probably shouldn't be as good as it is considering they've indicated north american tech is supposed to be rather superior (though imo, i'd probably go easy on the damage nerfs, and instead probably target ammo capacity, weapon range, weight of weapons, armour, and vehicles, etc; i'd lower weapon damage, but not by a huge amount). but it isn't better than what was in RMB for the most part.

(also, you didn't need full round bursts to make good use of the "standard" rate of fire; you could do a long burst that takes 1 melee action and does x5 damage and used only half a clip, for equal efficiency in the damage but potentially much better action economy so long as you had at least 3 attacks per melee).

[Axelmania]

It might help if people discussing the power level of main book weapons would get their stats right.
Also, it would be useful if people understood the differences between "power" and "power creep."

Arguments along the lines of "if a character could achieve a high level of power by having rare super powers or by linking themselves physically and permanently to another life form, then standard infantry should be able to achieve similar power levels via common gear" miss the boat.

Both are in the context of players getting things they shouldn't reasonably have access to, even if the ATL-7 is cheaper than an Absurr Life Node. The higher cost makes sense since it's much more powerful.

It's not like the North American power creeped, this was pre-rifts tech in South America, where the war launched, right?

It was more than just one gun, as well. I mean there were cats that started out at 100+MDC (That continued to increase), that could out fly a super samus (Which came later), and who's hand to hand attacks did MD damage, had mental blasts that -start- as strong as heavy rifles at that point (4D6) and just went up. by level 5 they were doing 8D6, by lvl 9 "Experienced Adventurer" They're at 12D6 MDC per blast, had horror factor of 10 as well as custom body armor on top of that, and modern weapons and such.

Another had supernatural strength, starts at 160MDC +10 per level, does MDC Damage in hand to hand, bio regeneration, forcefields, psionci blasts, other psionic powers including up to 4 from the super category which is strictly limited in Rifts, and more so at that point in the game. meaning these psychos could come at you with Psiswords as well as the list before, MDC claws, frenzy bonuses, rocket rifles, heavy MD Armor (On top of armor that was already heavier than what you could buy at that point in time) etc.

Since the main book you could play hatchling dragons with an average of 250 MDC.

It's worth pointing out that the Flying Tiger and Flame Panther and Hunter Cat on 109/111/113 are all SDC beings. They can only temporarily get MDC protection by spending 10 ISP and it only lasts 4 minutes per level. This isn't necessarily as beneficial as starting as MDC.

A mind melter's Telekinetic Force Field at 7th (175 v 170) pulls ahead of the flier, and at 10th (250) matches the Hunter Killer. These are creatures with established social roles locally, but who wouldn't fit in so well abroad. Particularly the Flame Panther or Hunter Cat with their low mental affinities. Only the Hunter has access to super-psi and as a downside, he has no access to healing or sensitive.

Ships with 28,000 MDC (which should be noted is almost half again more than the flippin' Ticonderoga from later books)

Carella did both South America and Underseas so if there was any discrepency I believe he intended it.

A Splugorth Slave Mothership (WB6p154) is 400 feet high, 800 feet wide, 800 feet long and 300k tons. The Ticonderoga (Underseas 130) is 200 high, 400 wide, 2000 long and 200k tons.

While the submersible may win out on length, it's half the height and width. We're talking 256 million cubic feet vs 160 million (62.5% larger) and 50% heavier. So having a mere 8000 (40% extra) MDC seems pretty reasonable.

Keep in mind that KS gave the Dragon Dreadnought (Atlantis 149) 2100 MDC even though it's a mere 300 tons and 70x77x240 (1,293,600 cubic feet). So compared to the Slave Mothership (which really ought to be better since it doesn't have to be optimized for space travel) it has 7.5% of the MDC for 0.1% of the weight and less than 0.6% of the volume.

CJ may have made a bigger vehicle but pound for pound and volume for volume, Siembieda's in WB2 is better.

I don't know if we can call high MDC boats creep when there were no stats for them to begin with. When RMB 95 mentioned TW flight for 2-50 people boats it never assigned MDC. Mercs (not sure when that came out in the WB sequence) assigned 2600 for a 55 x 32 x 564 (994,400 cubic feet) 10k ton.

(also, you didn't need full round bursts to make good use of the "standard" rate of fire; you could do a long burst that takes 1 melee action and does x5 damage and used only half a clip, for equal efficiency in the damage but potentially much better action economy so long as you had at least 3 attacks per melee).

Long v Full was a tradeoff between potentially costing your enemy 2 dodges vs potentially being simultaneously attacked twice. Also more average damage with 2 Longs, Full is more of an all or nothing since you could get a nat 20 for the whole thing or miss, and you rolled the dice once x 10 vs rolling it twice x 5. The former could more easiler result in minimum or maximum damage.

[ShadowLogan]

It's not like the North American power creeped, this was pre-rifts tech in South America, where the war launched, right?

Something else to keep in mind compared to NA/Europe/Japan with tech. Most of the high power technology in SA is connected with the strong alien presence IMHO and not human powers (they do have their good tech, bu most is more on par with NA IMHO).

CJ may have made a bigger vehicle but pound for pound and volume for volume, Siembieda's in WB2 is better.

The problem is that there has always been a disconnect in terms of size (volume/dimensions/mass/weight) and the amount of protection it provides. This was true in RMB, it was true in First Edition Robotech (MDC precursor to Rifts), and its still true today and things in between as its ever been.

EBAs and PA (I've seen) almost universally offer over 1MDC of protection for each kg of mass. Robot vehicles going as far back as the main book don't offer as much protection for their mass/size as EBA/PA (providing less than 1MDC per each kg of mass). And the trend continues with even larger platforms like the large naval ships being considered (where the 'bots are tenths and hundredths of 1 pt of MDC per kg, ships are even smaller). Granted in many cases this stuff falls into clusters based on types, at least for constructs as creatures are all over the place (for example a Faerie for its mass is one of the best, if not the best IIRC, in terms of MDC per unit of mass).

Edit: spelling and a typo

[Killer Cyborg]

The people who say C.J. brought in the power creep and that his S.A. books were over powered are clearly K.S. fanboys who back K.S. up in regards for their hate on C.J. Rifts is a power creep line. From the start Rifts had tons of power creep. Juicers in melee combat. Heavy cyborgs. Shifters. LL Walkers. Glitter Boys. Robots with a gunner. I mean, come one, Atlantis was 100% pure power creep. Bio Borgs, Conservator R.C.C., Atlantean Undead Hunters. I mean the power tattoo that gives 75 m.d.c. per level is not power creep?

You have no idea of what you're talking about.

Most everyone I ever saw in these forums who complained about C.J. Carella's Power Creep....nevertheless loved the man and his creations.

Rifts, Nightbane, Pantheons of the Megaverse and otherwise.

In these forums, he's probably about as well-liked an RPG writer as The Wuj was.

EDIT: I don't have my books with me at the moment. Fellas, did C.J. also give us Phase World?

With all due respect Corn, i have seen what he talks about a number of times over the years, including phaseworld in the mix.

The SA books have a few very specific items that may be considered overpowered (and frankly an anti tank laser that requires 3-4 actions to get your next shot off isnt)

It is. Or, at least, it was.

The ATL-7 inflicted 3d6x10+20 MD for a single shot.
The Boom Gun inflicted 3d6x10 MD for a single shot.
The JA-11 inflicted 3d6x10 MD for a full-magazine burst, which took two attacks (at a time when the average character only had 2 attacks per melee).

I don't have the full stats on the ATL, because I'm going off of the RGMG info, and that doesn't include stuff like weight... but it's pretty safe to say that the ATL-7 was a LOT smaller and lighter than the Boom Gun, even though it inflicted more damage per shot.
That's over-powered.

People like to say "But the ATL-7 was slower to reload than the Boom Gun!!" and they're right... but out of the other corner of their mouths, the same people are saying "And a full-magazine burst inflicted just as much damage as the ATL-7's single shot!" while neglecting that the full-mag burst took 2 attacks per melee.
Just like the same people hold up on one hand that the ATL-7's power level is comparable to some high-end super powers or other stuff from CB1, while neglecting to note that CB1 also nerfed the full-mag burst damage down to x7 instead of x10.

Sure, the Boom Gun is still the superior weapon compared to the ATL-7, but the Boom Gun requires a massive robot to carry and fire it. Not just any old robot, but one that has a specific stabilization system to handle the recoil from the weapon.
The ATL-7? It takes 2 attacks to reload after every shot, but it's man-portable (especially in a setting where more than human PS is common).
The fact that a hand-held, CR100k weapon out-performs the most powerful single gun in the game--a massive gun that requires specific infrastructure just to fire effectively--means that it's over-powered.
Even though it's NOT an overall superior weapon to the Boom Gun.

Compare it to the JA-11's full-mag burst.
The JA-11 inflicted (as of RMB) 3d6x10 MD over 2 attacks, and took one action to reload. With the JA-11, you could rip off a mag for 3d6x10 MD, then do it immediately again using the back-up reservoir, then reload using only one attack.
With the JA-11, you could fire your first three full-mag bursts using only 7 attacks. With the ATL-7, it'd take 9 attacks to fire that many times.
BUT after the first time you use the JA-11's reserve energy, you have the same fire rate as the ATL-7.
And you inflict 20 MD less damage per shot.
Post CB1, the JA-11 is only inflicting 3d6x7 MD (24.5 MD average) per shot, versus the ATL-7's 55 MD per shot; the ATL-7 does more than 2x the damage of a JA's full mag burst.

AND you're firing bursts with the JA-11, compared to the ATL-7's Aimed Shot. That makes a lot of difference.
For one thing, it means that you can fire Called Shots. Remember, when SA came out, it didn't take any more time or effort to make a Called Shot than any other Aimed Shot, and they all took only one attack.
If you're shooting at somebody with Heavy Deadboy, one of (if not THE) heaviest EBAs in North America, then you need to inflict 80 MD to blow past the chest armor, but only 35 MD for an arm, or 50 for a leg.
With a JA-11's average of 24.5 MD, you need 3+ full-mag bursts on average to blow through the chest plate.
With the ATL-7's average of 55 MD per single shot, you can blow off the target's arm or leg in a single shot.
Even if you're aiming for the torso, it takes two average hits instead of the JA's 3 attacks.
And since the JA-11 is firing bursts, that means that the shooter only has +1 to strike to start, compared to the ATL-7's +3 to strike to start, making the ATL-7 harder to dodge (because this was all back before the -10 rule, remember).
With the right skills, bonuses, sights, enhancements, whatever, it wasn't hard for most weapons that could make an Aimed Shot to be able to bump their Strike bonus up to +6 or higher. It wasn't the same with Bursts, though.
So even comparing the ATL-7 to weapons like the JA-11 performing a full-mag burst, the ATL-7 out-performs when it comes to dropping enemy soldiers quickly.

And that's ignoring all the tweaks that aren't endorsed, but that aren't really forbidden either, like hooking the ATL-7 to a nuclear power supply, or buying a bunch and making a gatling gun out of them, and so on and so forth.

It's a classic case of the writers obviously thinking, "well, it's not THAT much more powerful than the previous best. And it's got a couple of minor downsides. So it's probably balanced."
But (more powerful than the previous best) + (Only minor downsides) = Classic Power Creep.


Now, if we take the ATL-7, and we insert it into the post-RUE setting?
I haven't done a good comparison.
But I can tell you that the JA-11 isn't burst-capable anymore, so while the ATL-7 made some sense initially--when compared to a full-mag burst--it makes less sense now, because that kind of unleashing of energy is currently unprecedented and uncomparable to other energy weapons.

The OP's question really has three components:
-Are the SA books CONSIDERED to be overpowered?
-WERE the SA books overpowered when they came out?
-ARE the SA books actually overpowered today?

To which, I say:
Yes.
Yes.
Probably.

If GMs are stupid enough to let some of those items be had in games other than in SA then thats on them and does not make the books broken or overpowered.

1. The South America Books do not include ANY disclaimer that they are supposed to be completely isolated from North America to the point where no tech travels between regions. To claim that any GM who doesn't read the material, then add such a disclaimer himself/herself is "stupid" puts all the burden on the players and none on the game-makers.
From my perspective, if you're going to create a high-powered setting which is intended to be mostly or entirely isolated from the main setting, then you need to account for that in your writings.

2. Surely you know that MOST GMs out there aren't very careful about controlling that kind of thing?
I mean, every time I come onto the forums and explain that whenever I run, I heavily restrict which books the players can pull characters, gear, and powers from, people jump out from all over to call me a fascist or a killer GM or something.
To me, yes, restricting such things is common sense... but the scoreboard says that it's NOT actually all that common.
Not all of the burden for that rests on the players; a lot rests on the people making the game.

3. Kevin thought the stuff was overpowered when it was submitted to him. He allowed it against his better judgment.
THAT says that it was probably overpowered.

4. Comparisons to Atlantis aren't fair, because Atlantis is and was always supposed to have more powerful stuff than South America.
But South America was never hinted to have gear and classes so much more powerful than anything that North America had. There was nothing before the SA books hinting that South America was some kind of tech wonderland that could out-perform North America.
Balance is about more than just mechanics--it's about how those mechanics fit into the overall game setting, and the SA stuff generally didn't fit very well.

Hell I have seem people complain NightSPAWN is over powered as well.

Compared to other gamelines, it is... but in the case of Nightbane, it's its own setting, so that doesn't really matter.

For someone so well liked a lot of people complain about his work across the board yet these same peoole do not say a peep about the large power creep kevin himself created.

I peep quite a lot about that, actually.
But CJ was worse than Kevin was. He made some really cool stuff, but more often he made kinda cool stuff that bumped up the average power level of the game.