Open request for official Update

[wilycoyote]

Let us be clear from the outset

Wayne promised a full status update for every outstanding RTT W2 model over 8 months ago and to date we have not had it. For months we have been told via the PBWU that things are hotting up, quotes are being requested but......sorry we cannot say anything. As for KS, it would appear that we are in a three monthly update cycle, so nothing there till next month if at all?

What us going on?

This project is already massively overdue but even if you are not able to announce processing, after three years surely all of the designs are locked down and ready to go, so why no show? Okay you published electronic versions of the stats cards but how far down the road are you with the physical product. THe resin pieces are separate to the main plastic line but have yet to see the light of day anywhere aprt from the KS launch.

In simple terms, we the backers are still customers and so deserve some respect and so rather than the two or three line mention in the PBWU , is it not time to hae a full and frank state of the nation address. If you cannot put down definte dates so be it, but you must be able to show us the initial 3d renders -you have benn adjusting those from 3 and a half years ago haven't you?

The continued silence about RTT and trickle of official support, does engender suspision and the obvious filling in of blanks with rumour and accusation.

All I ask for is a simple and open communication, very much what you promised at the start but reneged on time after time

[Morgan Vening]

Just some small corrections, firstly, it was 16 months ago. July 10th, 2015, RRT KS Update #184, second paragraph.

As for Wave 2, I’m working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is in its development, but that’s going to take some time. The short version is that some have been approved for tooling, some are still pending minor changes, and a couple are being reworked to reduce part counts while preserving detail. It’s going painfully slowly.

And secondly, they showed some resin, specifically the SDF-1, at Adepticon in April of this year. I remember, because it, and the 3D prints (which aren't anything they couldn't of done three years ago) of the YF-4 and AValks are the only thing we've seen since late February 2015 (20 months and counting). Doesn't mean it's acceptable as the totality of sharing though.

And that brings us to today's inauspicious day. Today marks 67 days since the previous Kickstarter Update. That beats out Update 188 (December 12th 2015) for the second longest period of silence in the campaign. Only the mammoth 104 days that marked the gap between Update 192 (April 15th) and Update 193 (July 27th), remains longer. The date for that to be eclipsed, is Christmas Eve.

It's not just an occasional gap, either. Since the campaign was late (Dec 31st, 2013), by half years, the number of Updates has been,
First half 2014 (during development) : 24
Second half 2014 (during shipping) : 19
First half 2015 : 17
Second half 2015 : 6
First half 2016 : 5
Second half 2016 : 2 so far.

During PBWU's, it's often conveyed that backers and RRT aren't being forgotten. The numbers do tend to tell a different story. Despite claims of things "heating up". Just feels like someone left the stove on.

[Forar]

I would be fascinated to know what HAS happened to date. The newsletters and updates keep saying that they don't want to share what is in the works in case it falls through, but how about giving us insight into what they HAVE done that did end up falling through? Show some of the Work In Progress efforts, indicate where they were falling short or weren't feasible, showcase the (what must be by now) hundreds or thousands of man hours and phone calls and "working like Demons" that the newsletters regularly reference.

Where is that breakdown that Wayne has been working on for the last year and a half? They had prototypes for 5 new figures this year, so work is clearly being done.

The need for absolute silence is killing what little good will and belief they might have remaining.

[The Beast]

I would be fascinated to know what HAS happened to date. The newsletters and updates keep saying that they don't want to share what is in the works in case it falls through, but how about giving us insight into what they HAVE done that did end up falling through? Show some of the Work In Progress efforts, indicate where they were falling short or weren't feasible, showcase the (what must be by now) hundreds or thousands of man hours and phone calls and "working like Demons" that the newsletters regularly reference.

Where is that breakdown that Wayne has been working on for the last year and a half? They had prototypes for 5 new figures this year, so work is clearly being done.

The need for absolute silence is killing what little good will and belief they might have remaining.

This is absolutely true. I know I would be more supportive of this company if the KS page was getting substantive updates instead of the copypasta that happens each week. It could also appease a few of the other critics as well. They don't even have to be weekly updates. Bi-weekly would suffice as long as the updates actually said something aside from "We're working on it."

IIRC, there was another game company's kickstarter project that recently said they under-estimated how much what they were trying to do would cost. They admitted their mistake, and unfortunately either had to drop a few items, or change what they're getting made out of (if I can ever find the post again I'll try to link it here). While there were a few people who were upset about it, most seemed to understand. I think Palladium had a period where they could have done the same, but that period was likely a year or two ago. If PB tried it now I don't think people would be nearly as forgiving. To me, the lack of updates since the end of Wave 1 seems to tell me that this is PB's current stance on the RTT project.

I am curious as to why Palladium feels the need to be so damn quite about what's going on behind the scenes with their project (and I'm really only care to hear the company's explanation for it, not a customer's or an investor's guess as to why). I can understand PB not telling us here what's going on, but I don't understand why this same attitude carries over to the kickstarter page. I can also understand it if whatever companies PB's talking with to make the figures are the ones saying not to say anything (though that doesn't make much sense unless you're talking about the actual quote numbers). But if the need for silence is originating from PB's side, that absolutely has to stop, not only for any future shot the game may still have at being successful, but for the sake of the company as well.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[Jefffar]

This thread is now back up after some adjustments.

Just a reminder, fair criticism and tough questions are fine. Trolling, flaming and threats are not.

[Alpharius]

I think it is well past time for Palladium to start giving actual details on the reduced parts count work, any material changes being considered, who they are talking to, who has quoted them, who they're waiting on quotes from, etc.

Palladium has long since used up whatever goodwill they had, so statements like "waiting on quotes" and "things are boiling and/or percolating" and "we can't give you you any details because [insert not too convincing 'reason' here]" really aren't worth anything anymore.

It really is time for an update with actual, substantial and real detail in it, be it good news or bad news - it is time for real, actual news.

[jaymz]

"It really is time for an update with actual, substantial and real detail in it"


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...oh wait you were being serious my bad.

[Forar]

I agree with Alpharius. If they don't want to build our hopes up on what is being worked on, show us what has been tried and didn't work out.

How about some detail on those quotes that they've presumably gotten? Too high? Too far out? Maybe show off some of the sprue breakdowns, because after a couple of years of working on 'trimming the parts count' I'd expect them to have actually made some progress there. Or that full wave 2 status breakdown Wayne said he'd pull together for us a year and a half ago.

It's easy to be a cynic and just go 'lawl pb lawl', but this stopped being funny years (plural) ago.

[Alpha 11]

I will have to agree. If it goes beyond 2017, this is done. It might even been done already. But they do need to give the news, wither bad or good, were they have been, etc. And just so you all know, I still want this to continue. I want Southern Cross, Invid Invasion, and Sentinels. I want it all!

[Morgan Vening]

I will have to agree. If it goes beyond 2017, this is done. It might even been done already. But they do need to give the news, wither bad or good, were they have been, etc. And just so you all know, I still want this to continue. I want Southern Cross, Invid Invasion, and Sentinels. I want it all!

The problem is, how they'd try and do the following generations.

It was already considered an option in the second part of last year's big mid-year state of the union(search for Invid) as a potential early 2016 thing, but for whatever reason, it didn't eventuate. It just died on the vine, like so many things RRT. It seems like it was going to be handled by GHQ (based on where it was placed in that Update), but with the announcement that the existing Con Exclusives are "while supplies last", and the Conventional Forces never happened, it appears that relationship has parted ways.

I don't think Kickstarter would be viable. There would be the obvious hostility from some. But even without that, given their treatment of the current Kickstarter, I doubt many would have the confidence to back, no matter how much they claimed change and learning from their mistakes. Because if they can't change DURING this one, why would they change for the next?. I mean they claim they've learnt, several times, but go back to the same old, same old. It's almost expected that each Update starts with "Sorry for the silence". If you were really sorry, you'ld stop being silent.

An internal crowdsourcing would remove the hostile backer issue, but I'm not sure it'd get the exposure needed to be successful, and even if it did, that exposure would show the original Kickstarter's issues, and cause hesitation.

It's possible they'd self-fund it, but given the current state of the game, they'd have to have supreme confidence that anything beyond fulfilling their current commitments is going to generate a net profit. And given that noone at PB seems to have any passion for the project, I can't see that happening. Heck, I think if PB could outright afford to refund at this point*, I think they would, and brush their hands of the whole sordid mess.

* Note, I don't want this to devolve into an argument over Kickstarter finances. But the cost of a refund is likely much more than the cost of completing Wave 2, due to the margins involved. ie, the Monster was $40 in the Pledge Manager. It likely won't cost close $40 to produce if/when it goes into manufacture, even including tooling and shipping. But in a refund, it's $40. And I'm not even sure they could claim Kickstarter's 10% on a failure to complete. In that case, they'd actually LOSE $4 per Monster.

So, in closing, while we MIGHT see Wave 2 eventuate in the next year or two (though I do wish PB would provide a failure date, enough with the faffing about), I can't see any realistic path to future generations, except maybe some kind of authorized 3D printing service, and even then, I'm not sure PB or Harmony Gold would be on board with that. The licensing would arguably be problematic.

[Alpha 11]

I will have to agree. If it goes beyond 2017, this is done. It might even been done already. But they do need to give the news, wither bad or good, were they have been, etc. And just so you all know, I still want this to continue. I want Southern Cross, Invid Invasion, and Sentinels. I want it all!

The problem is, how they'd try and do the following generations.

It was already considered an option in the second part of last year's big mid-year state of the union(search for Invid) as a potential early 2016 thing, but for whatever reason, it didn't eventuate. It just died on the vine, like so many things RRT. It seems like it was going to be handled by GHQ (based on where it was placed in that Update), but with the announcement that the existing Con Exclusives are "while supplies last", and the Conventional Forces never happened, it appears that relationship has parted ways.

I don't think Kickstarter would be viable. There would be the obvious hostility from some. But even without that, given their treatment of the current Kickstarter, I doubt many would have the confidence to back, no matter how much they claimed change and learning from their mistakes. Because if they can't change DURING this one, why would they change for the next?. I mean they claim they've learnt, several times, but go back to the same old, same old. It's almost expected that each Update starts with "Sorry for the silence". If you were really sorry, you'ld stop being silent.

An internal crowdsourcing would remove the hostile backer issue, but I'm not sure it'd get the exposure needed to be successful, and even if it did, that exposure would show the original Kickstarter's issues, and cause hesitation.

It's possible they'd self-fund it, but given the current state of the game, they'd have to have supreme confidence that anything beyond fulfilling their current commitments is going to generate a net profit. And given that noone at PB seems to have any passion for the project, I can't see that happening. Heck, I think if PB could outright afford to refund at this point*, I think they would, and brush their hands of the whole sordid mess.

* Note, I don't want this to devolve into an argument over Kickstarter finances. But the cost of a refund is likely much more than the cost of completing Wave 2, due to the margins involved. ie, the Monster was $40 in the Pledge Manager. It likely won't cost close $40 to produce if/when it goes into manufacture, even including tooling and shipping. But in a refund, it's $40. And I'm not even sure they could claim Kickstarter's 10% on a failure to complete. In that case, they'd actually LOSE $4 per Monster.

So, in closing, while we MIGHT see Wave 2 eventuate in the next year or two (though I do wish PB would provide a failure date, enough with the faffing about), I can't see any realistic path to future generations, except maybe some kind of authorized 3D printing service, and even then, I'm not sure PB or Harmony Gold would be on board with that. The licensing would arguably be problematic.

Believe me, I'm not disputing what you are saying for the most part. I believe they do care about it, at the very least, in that this whole thing makes them look VERY bad. *Sigh* What could have been. Cyclones vs Zentradie, Masters vs Zentradie, Zentradie vs. Invid, it would have been cool!

[Mike1975]

I will have to agree. If it goes beyond 2017, this is done. It might even been done already. But they do need to give the news, wither bad or good, were they have been, etc. And just so you all know, I still want this to continue. I want Southern Cross, Invid Invasion, and Sentinels. I want it all!

The problem is, how they'd try and do the following generations.

It was already considered an option in the second part of last year's big mid-year state of the union(search for Invid) as a potential early 2016 thing, but for whatever reason, it didn't eventuate. It just died on the vine, like so many things RRT. It seems like it was going to be handled by GHQ (based on where it was placed in that Update), but with the announcement that the existing Con Exclusives are "while supplies last", and the Conventional Forces never happened, it appears that relationship has parted ways.

I don't think Kickstarter would be viable. There would be the obvious hostility from some. But even without that, given their treatment of the current Kickstarter, I doubt many would have the confidence to back, no matter how much they claimed change and learning from their mistakes. Because if they can't change DURING this one, why would they change for the next?. I mean they claim they've learnt, several times, but go back to the same old, same old. It's almost expected that each Update starts with "Sorry for the silence". If you were really sorry, you'ld stop being silent.

An internal crowdsourcing would remove the hostile backer issue, but I'm not sure it'd get the exposure needed to be successful, and even if it did, that exposure would show the original Kickstarter's issues, and cause hesitation.

It's possible they'd self-fund it, but given the current state of the game, they'd have to have supreme confidence that anything beyond fulfilling their current commitments is going to generate a net profit. And given that noone at PB seems to have any passion for the project, I can't see that happening. Heck, I think if PB could outright afford to refund at this point*, I think they would, and brush their hands of the whole sordid mess.

* Note, I don't want this to devolve into an argument over Kickstarter finances. But the cost of a refund is likely much more than the cost of completing Wave 2, due to the margins involved. ie, the Monster was $40 in the Pledge Manager. It likely won't cost close $40 to produce if/when it goes into manufacture, even including tooling and shipping. But in a refund, it's $40. And I'm not even sure they could claim Kickstarter's 10% on a failure to complete. In that case, they'd actually LOSE $4 per Monster.

So, in closing, while we MIGHT see Wave 2 eventuate in the next year or two (though I do wish PB would provide a failure date, enough with the faffing about), I can't see any realistic path to future generations, except maybe some kind of authorized 3D printing service, and even then, I'm not sure PB or Harmony Gold would be on board with that. The licensing would arguably be problematic.

Believe me, I'm not disputing what you are saying for the most part. I believe they do care about it, at the very least, in that this whole thing makes them look VERY bad. *Sigh* What could have been. Cyclones vs Zentradie, Masters vs Zentradie, Zentradie vs. Invid, it would have been cool!

Well, if you really wanted to you still could.....after all the rules and stats ARE out there, just not official ones.

[wilycoyote]

Well as the year draws to a close and after three months and a bit of no updates, I will just paraphrase Palladium themselves from update 190 29th January 2016

"As WAve 2 goes into production later this year (2016) we belive you will all be pleasantly suprised"

Nuff said, see you in 2017

[Spinachcat]

There's still 3 days left!!

[Morgan Vening]

There's still 3 days left!!

Why bother? We're already well past reasonable in terms of an Update. It's been 111 days, a full week past the previous record of 104, earlier this year (mid April through end of July). So no need to rush, to meet an arbitrary deadline.

And there's nothing to say, apparently. On December 9th in the PBWU, they said
"It is starting to look like our manufacturing plan to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two game pieces with much lower part counts is not going to pan out. We should know by the end of January, 2017. Very disappointing for us. We thought we had a huge surprise coming, but we are already making contingency plans for the 2017 release.".
It's been three weeks since then, and that hasn't warranted a direct Update.

Given their current Update schedule of once every 3-4 months or so, why do one now, when they can wait until mid-late January and do a SOTU, where they promise big things for the year that probably won't happen, like they have the last three years.

Jan 31 2014 - "WAVE TWO Kickstarter Fullfillment – Fall, 2014 - The balance of ALL the remaining Kickstarter items should ship by October"
Jan 14th 2015 - "Wave Two is coming in 2015."
Jan 30 2016 - "...we intend to move Robotech® RPG Tactics™ forward in 2016 in a big way"

I do find the increasing vagueness that came with each announcement to be telling.

Maybe they'll actually fold in a report on the progress of Wave 2.
March 1st, 2015 - From the Wave 2 Update, "Today, I’ll start with the few pieces I mentioned in the January 17, 2015 Update. More will be coming in the following days.". Those "following days" being 670 and counting.
Jul 10 2015 - Or maybe this one where Wayne said "As for Wave 2, I’m working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is in its development, but that’s going to take some time.", with "some time" being 539 and counting.

The one thing that is assured, is that the next Kickstarter Update will start with an obligatory apology for the delay in Updates, as if the reason for the delay is somehow beyond the control of Palladium.

[wilycoyote]

Well there is now less than 12 hours left in 2016 - at least here in th UK.

Agree with everything you put down there Morgan, I expect that Jan 2017, will see a bland update, probably as part of a PBWU but you never now, saying that it is full steam ahead to Wave 2 in 2017 and then......

I really do wonder what impact the non affiliated plans for the Rifts Boardgame KS is going to have on RTT Wave 2 progress - that is how much time wil be prioritised on this an official Palladium project as opposed to a IP liceense affair?

Still and all it does seem truly damaging that if RTT is so close to commitment to manufacture that the update schedule on the KS site has really become a joke - I mean once every three months if that - when there should be a lot of stuff to show off, have critiqued, get people involved in.

[jaymz]

^precisely lol.

[Veritas]

I'd be bummed if Wave 2 shipped.

This is because the backerkit says it shipped in 2014 for starters, which means if they ever do ship it it won't go through the backerkit site. The importance here is that I've moved, and it won't let me change my address to reflect that, so it will go to my old address.

Le sad.

[LtPebbles]

You should be able to change your address by contacting PB directly.

But they should just unlock the addresses so backers can make their own changes, if necessary.

[wilycoyote]

Well here we are now into 2017 and guess what still no update after four months.

Okay reading the PBWU we gather that after nearly a year of negotiation the effort to design Wave 2 and produce it with fewer parts per model has apparentely foundered , but there may be news at the end of this month (January 2017). Failing that it is back to plan B - forgive me but what the heck is plan B, something that maybe should have been activated six months ago.

Now to cap it all the latest PBWU - 06/01/2017 cannot be bothered even to mention progress on RTT but is willing to state that Palladium have been working hard on and to promote SW Rifts and the forthcoming Rifts Boardgame, which are produced outside of their company.

Sorry Kevin and your team, if you are truly serious about getting us RTT then you have to do more and must have more to say.

My dread is that at the end of january , all we get is another state of the nation address, trying to persuade us that everyone isagainst this project, but not to worry things are now going well and RTT is now our priority - at least until the Rifts Boardgame KS goes live.

Time to wake up and smell the coffeee, you have other 5300 customers who simply want their product, which they put their hard earned money to , trusting that you will deliver. It ain't rocket science, it ain't someone else, it is your responsibility to do this

[wilycoyote]

Its a bit like singing to yourself in the Albert hall here, but anyhow.

So we still have no update after close to four months, it is, I would suggest really start to look very silly and perhaps even a tad petulant on the part of Palladium.

OKay, you have no news on manufacturing - and from the PBWU unlikely to have any till late february. So what!!!!

After all this time you must have masters for every model - you have got that far surely and so why can you not show off these to be critiqued Same goes for the resin pieces, I may be thick at times but the parts count for a resin base is one, so what excuse do you have?

I would suggest that if the KS is not updated soon then it is going to be uncomfortably close to the lauch of the Rifts Boardgame KS. It is only a simple jump that most of PB's detractors will take, but if there suddenly appears to be a lot of time here spent pushing another company's product then it is again easy to see that tempers amongst the backers will be on the rise again.

The continuous lack of basic customer service and interaction is mind boggling to me. This is not a two peeny firm just formed by two 17 year old , it is a company that boasts a 30 plus year history, it is fast booting any history it had into the dustbin of disreute.

Time to put pen to paper stop wussing about the xmas packages and let people know what is going on.........

[Morgan Vening]

It's now been over 130 days since the last Update. That's more than two weeks longer than any other delay (104). As of last Sunday, there have been two Updates in the last 9 months.

While I didn't think there'd be more than a 50/50 chance of it breaking the previous record, I'm actually kind of surprised (and I thought I'd stop being surprised by PB). I expected at worst, a start of the year "state of the project". Or at least some mention of the fact that the Wave 2 cards are all done (rather than still being updated weekly).

I guess it's possible they're shifting the SOTP until the end of the month, but with last week's PBWU saying that "We should be able to present you manufacturing details and a timetable in another month or so.", it's looking like mid Feb, maybe March, before that happens. 160-180+ days since the last Update. I'm sure it'll start with an apology for the delay since the previous Update.

[jaymz]

"Hi guys....sorry for being so quiet but...."

[wilycoyote]

Well I suppose this weeks update was at least honest - at least on some level - we have no news.

I am not surprised but still staggered that after months of silence that PB have nothing to share with the backers of this project

We all know that the Chinese new year is here again and so any suggestion that PB will be able to tie down a deal on moulds/production/manufacturing etc if they are going to a Chinese source by the end of February is patently false. So I fully expect that any pronouncement in Feb will be the same ol, same old, no news waiting on quotes will have something soon. By which time the Rifts BG KS will have started and all bets on RTT are off.

At the very least by the end of this month, PB , kevin, Wayne Check or whover should have been able to send out a ful update on what has been done and what is pending for this project - no need as such for concrete date, even well thought out estimates might suffice. If the plan is to return to the "masters" already obtained despite higher parts counts, why can we not at least see these masters? If scenario books etc are nearly done (a favourite phrase at PB) then show off a couple of examples.

Starving the punters of any information is downright disrespectful of that customer base and hardly likely to win friends amongst backers - albeit most are royally (insert rude word) at you already.

Come on it is easy, if you can spend hours thinking and writing up twee comments on Xmas surprise package books, why not spend an hour or two adressing those who have put considerably more money your way?

[Morgan Vening]

At the very least by the end of this month, PB , kevin, Wayne Check or whover should have been able to send out a ful update on what has been done and what is pending for this project - no need as such for concrete date, even well thought out estimates might suffice. If the plan is to return to the "masters" already obtained despite higher parts counts, why can we not at least see these masters?

Given that they're now officially past 18 months, with it being promised on July 10th 2015, I'm not expecting much. We can go back to April 11th, 2014, almost 3 years, to find the promise of a gameplay video, still unfulfilled.

PB may or may not do something in the near future. But I don't have any expectations, at all, about anything. Not anymore. Not after 134 days (and counting) without an Update.

[jaymz]

Technically there was a game play video. The one that NMI (?) made.

[The Beast]

Technically there was a game play video. The one that NMI (?) made.

Had I invested in the project, I wouldn't consider a game play video an update of the project's status, unless he's taking time during it to explain what the status is.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[Morgan Vening]

Technically there was a game play video. The one that NMI (?) made.

I take the fact that it doesn't appear to have ever been linked to by PB as an official response, to have it not count. Same as how Mike's released the Conventional Forces stuff elsewhere, without PB publicly approving them, doesn't mean PB followed through on their promise to release them (also 18 months late).

And as Beast and others have mentioned, the quality of the content is such that I wouldn't want to go tying that around PB's neck as "approved" or "official". There's plenty of issues to take PB to task over. That shouldn't be one of them. That video is worse than no video. I give PB the benefit of the doubt that it's not theirs, even if it does have a PB intern at the helm.

[jaymz]

Technically there was a game play video. The one that NMI (?) made.

Had I invested in the project, I wouldn't consider a game play video an update of the project's status, unless he's taking time during it to explain what the status is.

This wasn't reference to it being an update just that it existed (as pointed out above that someone said there was none)

[jaymz]

Technically there was a game play video. The one that NMI (?) made.

I take the fact that it doesn't appear to have ever been linked to by PB as an official response, to have it not count. Same as how Mike's released the Conventional Forces stuff elsewhere, without PB publicly approving them, doesn't mean PB followed through on their promise to release them (also 18 months late).

And as Beast and others have mentioned, the quality of the content is such that I wouldn't want to go tying that around PB's neck as "approved" or "official". There's plenty of issues to take PB to task over. That shouldn't be one of them. That video is worse than no video. I give PB the benefit of the doubt that it's not theirs, even if it does have a PB intern at the helm.

The only thing is NMI while he repeatedly makes sure to say "he is not officially affiliated with PB" is by all his actions directly affiliated with PB but I digress, since you are correct in that the video was never put in a place that was officially a PB connection, just on his own youtube channel (y).

[wilycoyote]

If PB were serious about getting videos out there, they could do worse than get Robbo44 involved. he has launched a new You Tube Channel for Robotech gaming (possibly more rpg than rtt but we will see). See his threads earlier this month.

He shows off some nice models and setups so far.

[LtPebbles]

If PB were serious about getting videos out there, they could do worse than get Robbo44 involved. he has launched a new You Tube Channel for Robotech gaming (possibly more rpg than rtt but we will see). See his threads earlier this month.

He shows off some nice models and setups so far.

His videos are good. Nice to see _something_ positive.

[vitae_drinker]

Just received the PBWU today...

Shockingly, "Nothing new to report this week."

[wilycoyote]

Well that was the sanme as last week and liikely toi be the case for the next few weeks. kevin did say we would get details of Plan B (the result of the reduced parts paln failing to materialise after two years) this week but the following week this was amended to maybe a month or so.

Therefore we might hear what is going on at the end of february - but do not hold your breath - by which ti,e it will be going on five months since an official update to the backers.

Given Palaldium's emphatic promise to deliver in 2017, you might be excused thinking that this is not going to happen and the next update wil be full of why this did not happen, who let who down, in other words excuses rather than actions.

It is ironic that the same PBWU has more words and information about the RIFTS Boardgame - not supposedly a Palladium product - than we have received for RTT in the last six months. Can noone see how disrespectful and downright abusive this is to people who have already paid for product and therefore should be treated as valued customers.

[Robbo44]

If PB were serious about getting videos out there, they could do worse than get Robbo44 involved. he has launched a new You Tube Channel for Robotech gaming (possibly more rpg than rtt but we will see). See his threads earlier this month.

He shows off some nice models and setups so far.

The content I will be putting up over the next few months will be pretty much all RTT. I spoke with my RPG group and a few of them are not "comfortable" being filmed for the channel so that is a no go for putting up our RPG campaign sessions we are playing. That being said, I want to still try for one video a week, and I have plans to record all the in book scenarios, discuss the game rules, how to play demos, and break down of my thoughts on the units and their stats as well as a lot of battle reports and post game break downs. I figure I will work hard on the channel for this year and see where it goes from there to try a build up the community in my area. Who knows, maybe get an annual meet up going for games or some competitive play. The community is full of really cool and creative people I have found, starting to get into contact with them has been pretty awesome thus far!

[Grabula]

Here's the deal ladies and gentleman. It wouldn't take anyone this long to get anything figured out of they were serious. For example, unless they're stuck in a contract with the model designs that's too easy. I've seen and bend in my hand pieces of equal quality made at home by gamers with decent cad skills and a 3d printer. However, getting molds made for plastic models is expensive and I suspect that's why we're not hearing anything.

I just recently helped a friend investigate getting his hands on KS, including talking to several manufacturers for models and molds to produce plastic miniatures. It took us less than a month to get him setup to have several highly detailed, easy to assemble models. Yes the molds are expensive, typically between 10k and 30k US depending on size.

Money can only be the bottom line. This KS fell in its face and I suspect that's left palladium in a dark place when it comes to fulfilling even the minimal promises in the KS, much less doing anything in the future. The sad truth is you can't sell part of a game that is stuck with a terrible reputation, there's too much competition, even for such a beloved franchise.

Sound like a Debbie downer? I've been nothing but positive in the face of what we've had to deal with on this project until I got an inside look at the industry. New contracts could have been resolved in a few months. A few more months and every model in the line could have been redesigned to make them easier to assemble. We're really talking a year of delays within reason unless palladium isn't interested in fulfilling the KS and moving forward.

Is unfortunate that this KS crashed and its even more unfortunate that palladium can't just come out and apologize. An apology, a real apology and communication showing anyone was bothering to proceed with this would go a long way. As it is, I can't even get a game with what I have because even gamers I know with large collections of Robotech rtt just can't get over this debacle.

I'm not mad, I'm disappointed. Having grown up with Robotech this literally ly the one franchise I've had my fingers crossed about when I realized the power of a good Kickstarter. I wanted to love this game but it's difficult to do that if the entity holding the license to produce doesn't.

[wilycoyote]

Fair comment Grabula, hopefully we get something , in detail soon, bur.......

Robbo 44 really enjoying the vids so far - subscribed and added a couple of comments so far - and for confirmomg the nexr few will be RTT. However It would be nice to see a crossover from your rpg games - at least it should set up some off the wall scenarios.

[Grabula]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be wrong about this but there's just too much to indicate we won't be seeing anymore Robotech from palladium. Hopefully maybe someone sense can pick up the pieces and give the franchise the run it deserves.

[LtPebbles]

Here's the deal ladies and gentleman. It wouldn't take anyone this long to get anything figured out of they were serious. For example, unless they're stuck in a contract with the model designs that's too easy. I've seen and bend in my hand pieces of equal quality made at home by gamers with decent cad skills and a 3d printer. However, getting molds made for plastic models is expensive and I suspect that's why we're not hearing anything.

I just recently helped a friend investigate getting his hands on KS, including talking to several manufacturers for models and molds to produce plastic miniatures. It took us less than a month to get him setup to have several highly detailed, easy to assemble models. Yes the molds are expensive, typically between 10k and 30k US depending on size.

Money can only be the bottom line. This KS fell in its face and I suspect that's left palladium in a dark place when it comes to fulfilling even the minimal promises in the KS, much less doing anything in the future. The sad truth is you can't sell part of a game that is stuck with a terrible reputation, there's too much competition, even for such a beloved franchise.

Sound like a Debbie downer? I've been nothing but positive in the face of what we've had to deal with on this project until I got an inside look at the industry. New contracts could have been resolved in a few months. A few more months and every model in the line could have been redesigned to make them easier to assemble. We're really talking a year of delays within reason unless palladium isn't interested in fulfilling the KS and moving forward.

Is unfortunate that this KS crashed and its even more unfortunate that palladium can't just come out and apologize. An apology, a real apology and communication showing anyone was bothering to proceed with this would go a long way. As it is, I can't even get a game with what I have because even gamers I know with large collections of Robotech rtt just can't get over this debacle.

I'm not mad, I'm disappointed. Having grown up with Robotech this literally ly the one franchise I've had my fingers crossed about when I realized the power of a good Kickstarter. I wanted to love this game but it's difficult to do that if the entity holding the license to produce doesn't.

Very fair post, Grabula.

I'm still painting my mechs, but it's a slow process. Just looking at the minis is depressing. The potential for this franchise was huge and it feels wasted.

[jaymz]

Not only is the game wasted but Palladium also ran off a number of people who were VERY willing to do primary support ,work, and further development on this game going forward. People who gave a LOT of their own time for free to support this disaster.

[wilycoyote]

This is also a goofd point.

Apart from the more obvious where are the Wave 2 models , it would be interesting to see what PB inyend to do to relaunch RTT - as per their owm remarks. a lot of good will has been lost over the years simply through the almost tangible lack of interest shown in publically pushing RTT onto the wider web bt PB themselves - virtually no tutorials, model showcases, rules digests etc

I would acknowledge that PB have really never embraced the digital age, but the simple act of communiaction , part and parcel of their trade, just does not seem to happen. Vague promises month after month of we will be soon, next month, must do better next time, simply have driven manuy potentiall fans and supporters away or into the enemy camp

[LtPebbles]

An update:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rr ... ts/1799282

[Morgan Vening]

An update:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rr ... ts/1799282

Yup. And I was wrong. I can admit that. Totally incontrovertably wrong.

The one thing that is assured, is that the next Kickstarter Update will start with an obligatory apology for the delay in Updates, as if the reason for the delay is somehow beyond the control of Palladium.

They didn't apologize for being late. There's an apology for not having it done yet, but nothing about the radio silence for 147 days (21 weeks, or the better part of 5 months).

So, I was wrong. They couldn't even manage to be insincere about keeping people in the dark (cause again, there's no actual information, or proof that anything has been done, just the usual promises).

[jaymz]

So......sorry its not done, here buy some stuff for RRT and the RPG though while you wait....

basically more "totes working on it, honest"

[wilycoyote]

Yep, when is an update not and update, when its posted by Kevin.

So for five months we did not get any news as apparentely there was no news. So, when you do update, guess what there is still no news.

IN effect you spent are telling everyone you spent years trying to reduce parts counts and then in December decided to throw in the towek and go with Plan B. Now two months later you have a new idea - that of course you cannot tell us anything about - that will get Wave 2 to us by the end of year - heads up that will be in the US, us outside wil lucky to see it in 2018. Given the lack of concrete evidence that the actual masters have been created and authorised by Harmony Gold - you stress the books were - then how can this be a promise that can be fulfilled?

Here is an idea , why do you just sit down and explain to us in detail what had been proposed what failed and why. Show us proof of all of your efforts.

AS it stands this update smacks of posting anything to get the monkey off your back, before launching into massive support for the Rifts Boardgame Kickstarter - albeit this is not your project

[LeperColony]

I think at this point we all know Wave Two will never happen. If PB would just admit it, at least we could get a sense of closure.

[Forar]

It would be interesting to see what happened.

I imagine some small number of people might find that to be the final straw and try to challenge PB legally for refunds, but aside from those already living in Michigan, I imagine this would be incredibly cost prohibitive.

It would probably stir up the hornets nest of negativity in a way we haven't seen since "Spartangate", but they've survived this long with their usual supporters unwavering benefit of the doubt.

Maybe it'd jeopardize them having access to the license? Harmony Gold seem to either be happy or indifferent with how things are going, but outright admitting failure and turning thousands of potential consumers sour on the idea of Robotech minis might have some extra complications.

But if nothing else I think they just can't admit it. Not to us, not to themselves. This is a company that has, historically, spent years reassuring people that a given book on the verge of release, or that they're going to put out a dozen'ish books in a year when they've generally managed like 2-3 (and 2-4 Rifters).

Note, I'm not saying that to besmirch Palladium, that is a fairly generous factual assessment of their last few years. They promise high and generally fall short. It's actually kind of admirable how eternally optimistic they are, but it's unrealistic.

Hell, the most recent Newsletter proclaims that they'll be delivering 4 books and 2 Rifters in the next 3-4 months.

Let's check back in around June and see just how many of those actually landed?

[Alpha 11]

I think at this point we all know Wave Two will never happen. If PB would just admit it, at least we could get a sense of closure.

I still believe Wave 2 will get to us. Anything after that, its VERY most likely dead. In other words, a mirical will have to happen for us to get anything after the Macross saga.

[Seto Kaiba]

I think at this point we all know Wave Two will never happen. If PB would just admit it, at least we could get a sense of closure.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they admit Wave 2 isn't going to happen doesn't that mean they have to start issuing refunds for failing to deliver backer rewards?

Speaking strictly theoretically, that could explain why Palladium Books is so reluctant to provide any kind of a status update on the Kickstarter... let alone one with concrete details of the project's current standing. If they are no longer able to finish, they probably don't have the cash to give a partial refund to everyone they owe Wave 2 rewards to. It's pretty much a no-win scenario if they reach that point.

I've seen this happen once before, where a company with an unstable cashflow situation was stuck with a choice between going broke finishing a project, going broke paying a partial refund for the unfinished work, and going broke defending themselves in a lawsuit for which the most likely outcome was being ordered to pony up a refund or the finished product. They made an admirable effort to get the project done, but ended up defaulting on a payroll loan and had to declare bankruptcy not long after.

[Forar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they admit Wave 2 isn't going to happen doesn't that mean they have to start issuing refunds for failing to deliver backer rewards?

Ehhhh, not really.

Yes, the Kickstarter Terms of Use for Creators state that said Creators are expected to deliver on their project and make good on whatever rewards have been offered to Backers. Failing that, they're supposed to try to achieve a compromise or otherwise 'make good' on what they missed or fell short of. And failing that, they're supposed to issue refunds.

But it's not a hard legal binding. It might serve well if someone wanted to take the Creator to court, but most backers would likely find themselves paying a lawyer an order of magnitude more than they contributed just in the hopes of getting back their contribute plus legal fees. If that failed to occur, they'd just be throwing hundreds or thousands of dollars away trying to recoup (on average) about $300. And that's for local folks.

I'm not a lawyer, and have been lucky enough to keep out of litigation, but it seems like if it was that easy than we'd have seen more failed projects dragged through the courts.

There have been a few cases that got that far, but they're in the vast minority.

That said, if they are in fact sitting on the six figure sum that would be necessary to even have a remote chance of actually producing and shipping wave 2, they could in theory offer some portion of a refund to backers based on what is still owed versus what was delivered. This kind of pro-rated amount could stretch those dollars fairly far.

But that assumes they're still sitting on at least 1/3 of the funds.

They have stated in the past that the money was not wasted (in response to accusations of being out of funding, which is not what was asked/accused), but they've never (that I've seen) stated that they still have the funds available.

Ethically, it would be the right thing to do to offer at least partial refunds as finances permitted. Based on their hard stance of 'no refunds for anyone' that they've held for over 3 years, I don't see them doing it.

Bluntly, if there's a statute of limitations involved, I'd be surprised if it hadn't occurred to them to just run out the clock. There are a bunch of big tough Internet Lawyers who make declarations about whether this would fall under Federal Mail Fraud or Michigan Law or whatever, but I'm not ponying up a decent lawyer's fees to find out the actual answer.