Torturian whip rules

[Axelmania]

Between the Shadows was vague on this. It says they can remove astral bodies forcefully but not how to do this in combat.

Is it as simple as any successful strike roll automatically does it? Do you get a savings throw?

I think it should cost them something, even if merely 1 ISP per success, to explain why a single Torturian couldn't disable an entire city overnight.

How would you even rescue a victim? Could they freely fly back to and bond to their body like a normal projector so long as you prevent the torturing from restraining them? How long would they have before it was no longer possible?

Can they sense their body 60% like someone with the power or just go by memory?

I figure if the 5min/level of astral projection ran out your cord got severed and it got hard to get back ( just returning to body would not make sense or it would not be a danger)

Does a Torturian snap your cord then? You have no duration to expire after all.

If they could freely separate people without ISP cost then they could create massive chaos evenif they could only escort a small amount away as slaves.

A regular chore of good guys could simply be to help Torturian victims floating around find their way back to their bodies.

This would be hard with astral projection due to its short duration. Even flying at mach speeds you still need to stop and look around to try and spot people.

Nightbane with the Astral Self talent seem the prime candidatss for this job. Their power has an unlimited duration and they would be more resilient in surviving Torturian or other threats while rescuing.

The downside is of course that this is done in Morphus so it would be scary to those you are trying to save. As scary as Torturians can look, Banes can be scarier.

Barbie's/Kens or Shadow Warlocks might I've an easier time being the diplomats, with the Burgerfaces of the group as backup and watchdogs.

You might even pass this up as a dream since it would seem so unreal.

Gordon the Reporter must have had See the Invisible in addition to Astral Projection since he could see the Torturians when they telepathic ally mocoed him after he returned to his body. He must have activated it as he leaped off the bed and turned.

[Nekira Sudacne]

You're missing the key limitation: the whip can only tear out the astral body of those who already have the power to astral travel.

However, their whips and chains can reach into the body of any psychic, mage or Nightbane with the ability to astral project or transfer, and then yank the victim's astral form out.

Meaning anyone without a specific astral form/astral porjection spell, ability, or power can't have their astral selves torn out with the whip at all. that's why it's not a big problem and why they mostly work as guards and not kidnappers--the number of potential victims is limited--in fact, as there's no way to tell what spells/talents/psionics someone has, they have no way to know who even is vunerable unless they are seen using astral travel first.

It's a good reason to use those powers cautiously. If you are never caught using it, then Torturians have no reason to target you. as the fiction peice involving them shows, anyone who IS caught using astral form is usually tracked down and targeted by them quickly.

[Axelmania]

I could opt to read that as "any psychic" and "any mage" since it is possible for Nightbane to project via a spell or transfer via Astral Self.

Theoretically couldn't anyone who has used a Talisman containing the spell Astral Projection be vulnerable? Once separated, never the same, or something along those lines?

Perhaps the nightlords could begin circulating 1-shot talismans which people buy and think it's some kind of drug trip, and then they become vulnerable to permanent detachment by Torturians.

For whoever is vulnerable, some rules on how to do the combat would still be good. I guess for your mentioned reasons an ISP cost wouldn't be necessary, though still a nice balancing factor.

Even if you got a savings throw, if it didn't cost anything to attempt I could see them just keep repeating until a failure

[Nekira Sudacne]

it reads "Any psychic mage with the ability to astrally project or transfer", not "With the ability to learn to astrally project or transfer". Present tense. it only works on those who currently have the ability. one does not say a first level wizard has the "ability" to cast Crimson Wall of Lictalon at level 1, that would imply he can already do so, rather he simply has the potential to gain the ability to cast the spell should he find a teacher willing to share it with him.

I am also not sure a talismin would qualify. if it's a one-shot talismin, once they use it, they would no longer have the "ability" to astrally project, whereas once you learn a spell/psionic/talent, there is no way to later lose that ability.

(Or it's very hard. giving a mage with the spell 7 magic tattoos would strip them of all spellcasting ability and might protect them, but it wouldn't effect a psionic with it, and nightbane can't get magic tattoos in the first place)

I am also comfortable with the whip working on any successful hit. much like a regular soul stealing sword, if you don't want to die, you had better parry. if they do get a PC or two the rest go get to figure out how to try to stage a jailbreak in the astral plane befeore it's too late, which is a fun setup for adventure.

[Axelmania]

Soul stealing swords give a save vs magic though. Well except Deathkiss but it has to kill you first like Tentac to work.

I figure maybe they entangle you first and then spend subsequent actions to "jerk" the soul with the ship and each ought to give some kinda save like maybe vs psi or magic or pain.

If a mage learned astral projection and discovered it made him vulnerable to Torturians I guess they could pay a Mind Master to Mind Wipe them of the spell knowledge. Think that'd protect them?

Unlike mind melters those guys can get wipe/possess at 1st level so there should be more out there with those.abilities.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I didn't say the whip was particuarlly fair when written if you should happen to have astral projection/transferance and get hit with it, but the lack of a save seems to be a deliberate "this ability has no save".

Houseruling one in for fairness sake is a reasonable thing to do, I likely would myself were I ever to use a torturian.

Mind Wiping knowlege of how to use an ability would probablly work

[eliakon]

On the 'fairness' issue.
Nightbane is, at its heart, a horror game.
It is one where the bad guys are overwhelmingly powerful, hold all the cards, and in a direct confrontation you will lose.
It wasn't designed to be one of fairness where everyone has equal powers and the bad guys are limited or the like.

In a pure Nightbane game the idea of "if the Torturian's find you then you WILL die horribly" is not outside of the setting
In a mixed game, or the Nightbane game of 'gothic-punk super heroes' then yeah... it needs a save and stuff.

[Axelmania]

Even if they don't need a save to detach you, that happening isn't a guarantee you'll die horribly. It wracks you with pain but it doesn't say it actually immobilizes you, so I don't see there being anything preventing you from launching mind bolts or attacking with ectoplasmic limbs or similar.

The guy in the example was probably just some minor psychic where AP was one of his few abilities, so being entangled is pretty rough for him since he'd need to dodge to escape an entangle maneuver and probably since there was a group of them they used multiple whips so they could re-entangle 1 before he got all of them off.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think you are doing that whole "overthinking it" thing again

[Axelmania]

It can seem like that, especially since I've never had to fight a Torturian, but if I did I'd be wanting to know how I could RP fighting back. If it's just a case of "the NPC wins, sit back and enjoy the ride" it can be kind of annoying. Even if there's a low chance of resistance it's nice to be able to try for a natural 20.

[eliakon]

It can seem like that, especially since I've never had to fight a Torturian, but if I did I'd be wanting to know how I could RP fighting back. If it's just a case of "the NPC wins, sit back and enjoy the ride" it can be kind of annoying. Even if there's a low chance of resistance it's nice to be able to try for a natural 20.

The way you fight back is you ask your GM what the rules at their table are.
That's it.
Really.
There is no 'secret canon' on this. Its utterly terra incognita as far as the rules go meaning that anything on it is going to a ruling cut from whole cloth by the GM based on what they want their game to be like.

[Axelmania]

Would make some good errata if Nightbane ever got another world book though. Or a Rifter FAQ. Dont' they sometimes introduce new data that way to fill holes if the book didn't clarify something?

[Nekira Sudacne]

It can seem like that, especially since I've never had to fight a Torturian, but if I did I'd be wanting to know how I could RP fighting back. If it's just a case of "the NPC wins, sit back and enjoy the ride" it can be kind of annoying. Even if there's a low chance of resistance it's nice to be able to try for a natural 20.

Parry. Dodge helps too.

basically, treat them as you would any enemy with a weapon powerful enough to maybe kill you in one hit. Do all in your power to avoid getting hit.


Also, does the attack have to hit skin, or at least flesh? I would think that if the character is wearing body armor, only an attack that is over the AR would trigger the effect. Shadow Sheild talent might be a great defense, as it can provide a lot of SDC with no AR. it's basically a talent force feild--they can't get at you until it's depleted, and the whip doesn't do a ton of physical damage.

[Axelmania]

Come to think of it, a Nightbane with Astral Self isn't a psychic and may not be a mage so only the NB mystics/sorcerers would need to worry about doing shadow shield.

If a bane did know astral projection spell and got astral self later they would probably use that exclusively since it is superior. Seek amnesia for the spell.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Come to think of it, a Nightbane with Astral Self isn't a psychic and may not be a mage so only the NB mystics/sorcerers would need to worry about doing shadow shield.

If a bane did know astral projection spell and got astral self later they would probably use that exclusively since it is superior. Seek amnesia for the spell.

actually, it says nightbane with the ability to astrally project/transfer, not that being a psychic/mage is required. Astral Self is a form of astral transferance. Nightbane Mages/Sorcerers should definatly take shadow sheild if they also have astral self.

[Axelmania]

I wonder what the "chains" refers to in the statement. Other weapons are sword/straps/wire/net. Chains are for Necrophim...

More broadly if we.look under the.Whip description "These weapons have the ability to force people out of their bodies." Seems all you need to be is a person.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If one ignores the other sentance stating they also need to have the power to astrally project/transfer. One does not negate the other. They do have the ability to force a person out of their body. As long as that person also has the power to astrally project/transfer. Rules are given throughout the entry. There is no need to have every rule in the same sentance, and of course taking single sentances out of context leads to incorrect readings. Thats why you have to read the whole entry.

There is not even a strict need for the rule to be in the same entry as the other rule for both requirements to apply. It would be poor editing, but the astrally project/transfer requirement would still be valid.

Honestly, you know better than to pluck a single sentance and say a "broad" reading of that one rule negates the other rule already cited. They are not mutually exclusive, so the correct reading is they are both valid. They must have the power to astrally project/transfer. They must also be a person. No contradictions here.

[Axelmania]

The sentence doesn't say their victims NEED to have the power. Actual text:

their whips and chains can reach into the body of any psychic, mage or Nightbane with the ability to astral porject or transfer

It's "can" rather than "can only".

Conversely:

the power to force people out of their bodies

No "some" people or anything like that.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The sentence doesn't say their victims NEED to have the power. Actual text:

their whips and chains can reach into the body of any psychic, mage or Nightbane with the ability to astral porject or transfer

It's "can" rather than "can only".

Conversely:

the power to force people out of their bodies

No "some" people or anything like that.

It's clarifying text. it's purpose is to clarify the use of the power. it specifies catagories of people the whip's or chains can effect.

Later, it says that the power works on people. There is no reason to think this text expands the power of the whip form a very specific and rather limited to group to littearlly anyone, such a reading essentially would negate the first line. so the more natural reading is to assume that it works on people, provided those people also meet the other, already stated requirements. it does not say works on anyone, so there is no reason to presume it negates already stated requirements.

your reading is unnatural, both in common parlance and in how palladium words other powers in it's own common format, it requires one to assume it negates the very specific grouping of people with the power to astrally project and transfer. In general, a reading that is unnatural to the common tounge, unnatural to the standard format, and actually contridicts previously written text if read in the unnatural way; but the natural reading presents no contradictions to either and follows both general and palladium-specific conventions: Then the unnatural reading safely be considered to be an incorrect reading.

[Axelmania]

While I agree it is clarifying text, I see that as.clarifying their preferred targets, not the only possible targets.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Well, if you want to be wrong I certainly can't stop you

[Axelmania]

Until they are revisited, neither phrase is explicit enough in either inclusion or exclusion to say either is right.

General rules in how people with whips can control people they entangle would be useful here either way. They could be extrapolated to astral combat.

Despite th +10 PS a pair went after the astral detective in the story which makes me wonder how much muscle is needed to drag around a torso like that.