What do you think keeps people from getting into Palladium?

[enyggma514]

Greetings and Salutations fellow Palladium gamers! So I have had a difficult time over the years finding people into Palladium games in my neck of the woods. (Alabama). Most people here are into D and D 5 or Pathfinder. Lucky for me I have a group of old college buddies on Skype that I am about to run a Rifts game for. My little brother that I ran Robotech for when we were young asked me why people aren't into Palladium. I tried to explain to him that a lot of modern gamers seem to like very sleek and condensed game mechanics. A lot of them don't want to fool with a combat system as detailed as the Palladium one.

I asked my college buddy that introduced me to Rifts back in 03 and he says a lot of people see Palladium as an old outdated set of books and rules. A "grognard" game. I am not trying to flame Palladium or start a troll war but what have you guys found that keeps people from giving Palladium games a chance? How have you tried to combat any bad perceptions of the games?

[Vincent Takeda]

I think nearly half of the posts that I make in forums anymore are in forums about 'what system should I use for so and so' and I'm suggesting palladium. It is in fact my go to system to this day. As far as what we encounter in the wild, it comes down to 7 things

• Palladium books are poorly organized (folks dont want to take the time to learn a system thats a hard read or where they're always having to hunt down an important rule in a seemingly inappropriate place)
• Missing critical information (even in palladiums own threads there's been talk of 'how much does it cost to repair mdc'... its in there... but its apparently not easy to find or in the places folks expect it. Pretty elusive for being a thing your characters are almost absolutely positively going to want to do a lot)
• Not available on pdf so 'difficult to obtain'... (nowadays folks sure do want to pay for it and download it and have it now now now)
• No balance (I love this part of the system but modern gamers on the other hand *really* like the crunch to be meticulously even handed)
• Stripped down mechanics are the rage these days (I dont know why everyone's so big on dice pools these days... maybe instead of your gun doing 2d6x10 it should be 20d6... people seem to love tossing a big ole pile of bones at once)
• Rulings over rules (again I love this part as an old school gamer but rulings your gm made that you disagree with turned off a huge percentage of the playerbase, who now favor super crunchy systems where they can rules lawyer the heck out of every word of every paragraph... Irony is that if your gm is deciding DC's then he's making a ruling so nothing's *actually* changed)
• The first rule about fight club is you dont talk about fight club. (I attribute this mostly to the reputation palladium has for being litigious... if you want to create something and share it with the world, knowing that the publisher might come after you discourages you from working with it, and certainly discourages you from talking about it... If you cant talk to other members of the community freely about the thing, it hurts the community. Folks want to be able to discuss every aspect of the system, particularly aspects of the system that can be used to replicate other genres and other licenced properties that we all enjoy without the fear of the lawhammer descending upon them, so the things a lot of folks want to do most fervently with the system cant comfortably be done, much less spoken about publicly, so better to be safe than sorry)

As a fervent palladium supporter its easy to say 'go check it out' but its just as easy for a dozen other folks in the thread to rave about any other system at all and burp out any combination of the above bullets and it doesnt take much for a person to say 'wow... too many problems there'.

Edit: ah yes. one more bullet...
• RIFTS... Every conversation about palladium books immediately turns to RIFTS. Not heros unlimited. Not after the bomb or robotech or palladium fantasy or dead reign. If you're talking about palladium there's only one word in the minds of the folks suggesting the systems... RIIIIIIFFFFTS. The most broken child of the palladium pantheon... none more must be spoken about. If you want to look at a system, why look at the palladium system of 2003 and older... The newest most current high fallootin thing palladium makes is RIIIIFTS and RIIFTS has a lot of problems so lets just move on... I mean its a good thing that Rifts has such a beefy brand identification, but it curbstomps most discussion about the earlier less wonky creations from the Wuj and dont have much of the baggage that Rifts has developed over time. The conversation is almost immediately RIIIFTS.. Broken. Baggage.... End of line. Moving on.

Thats how a lot of the threads go for me.

[Glistam]

In my opinons...

Because people complain endlessly about the game and the companies policies (even the fans, and not necessarily undeservedly). In my opinion that makes it a tough sell to someone new since they hear so much negative that it's hard to believe the positive is worth it.

The RRT wave 2 Kickstarter issue has also turned away many fans, and made others very upset. Palladium did a very cool thing but that goodwill has seemed to dry up as the disappointment builds and angry backers share their frustration in any way they can.

The thing I hear the most though is that people often respond to the fact that i play Palladium games with the phrase, "Palladium's still in business?"

[enyggma514]

I see your points. Another thing is that if you are a GM with a family and little time other companies make it easier for you to run games. For example the Dungeons and Dragon Monster Manuals and Pathfinder bestiaries have a lot of the monsters already statted out. They also have a slew of modules and ready to run campaigns. A lot of palladium's games give you the resources to create creature stats from the ground up BUT sometimes it is nice to just be able to open a book and drop in a creature without having to roll up a bunch of stats yourself. The only Palladium game with a lot of already statted out villians seems to be HU.

I think that is what keeps a lot of people out of Palladium games. Why run a fantasy game where you have to roll up every baddy and monster when you can jump into something with most things pregenerated? I understand that some people like that sort of thing but a lot of modern busy gamers don't.

I personally don't have a problem with it but I can see why it would put off some people.

[Rallan]

One thing nobody's mentioned yet is that they're old, and most of the sourcebooks for them are old, and most of their games haven't been supported by new books for years. Asking why not many people are getting into Palladium is like asking why not many people are getting into Cyberpunk or Shadowrun, it's just old, and everyone who plays games other than D&D is fussing over newer games.

[Spinachcat]

Lack of GMs running PB games.

Most gamers just want to play. If a good GM is available, most gamers will be happy to play whatever that GM is offering because most RPGing is more about the social gathering than system mechanics.

If I run PB games at a convention, I always get players.

But its 100% true that the GM workload for PB GMs is higher than non-PB GMs. Thus, in an age where GMs have less time to prep and players have less interest in complicated chargen, PB becomes a harder sell.

Also, please note that the vast majority of players know nothing about RPG forum drama. RPG forum participation is a separate hobby from playing RPGs.

[gaby]

Thers Too much focus on Dead Reign and they are ingoring other setting like Heroes unlimited,Phase world and BtS.

[Forar]

Thers Too much focus on Dead Reign and they are ingoring other setting like Heroes unlimited,Phase world and BtS.

I'd tie that to the massive swell in popularity for zombie fiction over the last decade (various movies, World War Z (the book, not the god awful movie), The Walking Dead, Left4Dead, etc), but Superhero movies and shows are off the charts these days, so in hindsight I am a bit surprised they haven't tried to capitalize on that more. Pulp adventure (Indiana Jones, The Mummy, etc) and grand space adventures (Guardians of the Galaxy, Star Wars, etc) aren't exactly small either.

There's room to grow, but that would also require a much more aggressive release schedule.

[Killer Cyborg]

Outdated system.
Unplayable RAW.
Rules-Heavy System...
...that the writers expect to play like a rules-light system.
Reputation for munchkinism.

Also, I've heard that Palladium has a poor relationship with the network of local game stores. My LGS barely carries any Palladium books, and I've heard other stores don't carry any at all.

Finally, Palladium as a company seems to attract a lot of fans and fanboys--not just customers--and that's a breed that can turn HARD when they turn on you. Hardcore devotion can end up in hardcore hatred, and Palladium has a lot of haters out there that can't get over the fact that they no longer like their one-time favorite gaming company. They end up like a lonely, crazy guy at a bar who can't ever get over the fact that it didn't work out with his ex.
People who've never met her, but who have listened to this guy's stories about her?
They're not going to want anything to do with her, whether or not the guy's stories are true.

[Sureshot]

Outdated system.
Unplayable RAW.
Rules-Heavy System...
...that the writers expect to play like a rules-light system.
Reputation for munchkinism.
Also, I've heard that Palladium has a poor relationship with the network of local game stores. My LGS barely carries any Palladium books, and I've heard other stores don't carry any at all.

Seconded on all posts. Most GMs who invest in a rpg want to make sure they can find gamers to run it for. With PB it's hard to find both those to play and who run the game. I would add to the above list.

- Too too long to swtich over to PDF.
-Lack of marketing. in this digital age word of mouth can only do so much.
-The creator plays with his own houseruled system at conventions not RAW and that's never a good endorsement of the system as a whole imo.

[Forar]

-The creator plays with his own houseruled system at conventions not RAW and that's never a good endorsement of the system as a whole imo.

I've been pretty critical of Palladium over the years, but this part has never really seemed like that big an incongruity to me.

A convention, where a group of strangers (4-6+ based on my con experiences, but obviously it'll vary) are supposed to have a fulfilling adventure in only a few hours isn't a time to get bogged down in the rules minutia. I see it less as a condemnation of PB's system, than merely a recognition that the rules set doesn't apply well to that kind of structure. Of course, that brings up the question of "why run a system in a setting that's not conducive to it being a positive experience without heavy modification?", but as I've never played in one of Kevin's games, I cannot say exactly what is and isn't being adjusted to fit within time constraints or make things flow swiftly and smoothly with an irregular group of people and only a few hours to go.

I mean, most RPG sessions I saw listed for Gencon were like 2-4 hours or so? That was a single fight in my old group, if we were moving at a fairly good pace. Or a bunch of story 'fluff' with some skill stuff, RP'ing, and maybe a very short and/or easy fight.

All the moreso given that some players may not be particularly familiar with their mechanics.

Believe me, I'm not one to rush to PB's defense, they've garnered plenty of ire over these last three years. But I don't see "he doesn't use his own rules under these conditions!" as being a perfect 1 to 1 comparison.

[Hendrik]

I think Victor Takeda has nailed the existing preconceptions one runs into when introducing a Palladium game to a party and Killer Cyborg has rounded it up.

Personally, I have found that all of these go away after playing even just a little. Mind, that is my personal experience. I have introduced Palladium games to three parties and all were absolutely happy with the rules "as they are" (Killer Cyborg, you know we differ on that issue ). What lingered with my groups were these two points Vincent so clearly summarized:

• Palladium books are poorly organized (folks dont want to take the time to learn a system thats a hard read or where they're always having to hunt down an important rule in a seemingly inappropriate place)
• Missing critical information (even in palladiums own threads there's been talk of 'how much does it cost to repair mdc'... its in there... but its apparently not easy to find or in the places folks expect it. Pretty elusive for being a thing your characters are almost absolutely positively going to want to do a lot)

The idiosyncratic rules organization and lack of an index do not make approaching the rules easy, let alone intuitive, so many people, I imagine, may stop before they start unless they have a "guide".

Aside from that, I think, the main problem is one of perception. Palladium games have been around for a while and the rules have not changed terribly much since their inception. They are not "modern". They are not outdated to me, but especially people who have not played Palladium games ASSUME or HAVE HEARD they are outdated. The rules are from an era when AD&D 1st and 2nd edition, Runequest, etc. were standard, but, I think, the audience has changed and expects something that, as it may appear, Palladium does not offer. Mind, I think it does and does it well, but the presentation is different from what people today may expect, especially when their attention span is trained on "learning to play intuitively"-PC games.

Well, and then there is some negative publicity. Gamers bicker like fishwives. Sometimes I think this is even an intricate part of the hobby. However, Palladium for some reason or other is a red cloth for some very vocal fishwives and the, err, slow production of the Robotech kickstarter has not helped, really.

Store presence may be another issue, but I think the importance of that diminishes in this day and age, which makes other marketing exposure/presence more important.

That said, I am very happy that I have convinced my Wednesday group that Palladium is most excellent fun to play and it works well for us (or rather will again when I get out of my GM hiatus). We have played Nightbane but mostly Beyond the Supernatural. I want to play Palladium Fantasy next. Forgetting about what may seem negative, my group has reacted very positively also to the "compatibility" of the rules. I know there is no "universal rule" system, but the megaversial system core has a strong recognition factor and, I found, this makes it easier to switch between settings/rules.

[jaymz]

What keeps people from getting into Palladium?

Palladium.

[Jimbo]

Aside from the preconceived notions of it being an old ruleset and the fact that it is a bit difficult to navigate the books, it is a relatively slow game in play. New players are expecting something along the lines of an electronic RPG where it is all directed at killing the Boss and going on to the next level, while PFRPG (my fave) has always been more story oriented to me. I am also of the opinion that many players are expecting something similar to what they may have experienced with other similar games(super powerful characters from the start leading to some prestigious class that will allow them to become the equivalent of several different classes.
And there is the actual lack of support to several of the game lines in favor of others. It is a shame that this is how it is. I could probably expound on this a bit more but its late and I do have to work on the morrow.
PF is definitely more of an old school game and that is why it is my fave.

[zyanitevp]

I think Victor Takeda has nailed the existing preconceptions one runs into when introducing a Palladium game to a party and Killer Cyborg has rounded it up.

Personally, I have found that all of these go away after playing even just a little. Mind, that is my personal experience. I have introduced Palladium games to three parties and all were absolutely happy with the rules "as they are" (Killer Cyborg, you know we differ on that issue ). What lingered with my groups were these two points Vincent so clearly summarized:

• Palladium books are poorly organized (folks dont want to take the time to learn a system thats a hard read or where they're always having to hunt down an important rule in a seemingly inappropriate place)
• Missing critical information (even in palladiums own threads there's been talk of 'how much does it cost to repair mdc'... its in there... but its apparently not easy to find or in the places folks expect it. Pretty elusive for being a thing your characters are almost absolutely positively going to want to do a lot)

The idiosyncratic rules organization and lack of an index do not make approaching the rules easy, let alone intuitive, so many people, I imagine, may stop before they start unless they have a "guide".

Aside from that, I think, the main problem is one of perception. Palladium games have been around for a while and the rules have not changed terribly much since their inception. They are not "modern". They are not outdated to me, but especially people who have not played Palladium games ASSUME or HAVE HEARD they are outdated. The rules are from an era when AD&D 1st and 2nd edition, Runequest, etc. were standard, but, I think, the audience has changed and expects something that, as it may appear, Palladium does not offer. Mind, I think it does and does it well, but the presentation is different from what people today may expect, especially when their attention span is trained on "learning to play intuitively"-PC games.

Well, and then there is some negative publicity. Gamers bicker like fishwives. Sometimes I think this is even an intricate part of the hobby. However, Palladium for some reason or other is a red cloth for some very vocal fishwives and the, err, slow production of the Robotech kickstarter has not helped, really.

Store presence may be another issue, but I think the importance of that diminishes in this day and age, which makes other marketing exposure/presence more important.

That said, I am very happy that I have convinced my Wednesday group that Palladium is most excellent fun to play and it works well for us (or rather will again when I get out of my GM hiatus). We have played Nightbane but mostly Beyond the Supernatural. I want to play Palladium Fantasy next. Forgetting about what may seem negative, my group has reacted very positively also to the "compatibility" of the rules. I know there is no "universal rule" system, but the megaversial system core has a strong recognition factor and, I found, this makes it easier to switch between settings/rules.

I never ran a Fantasy game outside of a Con before Rebuilt, and next month will mark 6 years of enjoyment of Fantasy- I highly recommend it!

[yanko128]

Palladium made sure it has almost no internet presence. Also, with the number of game systems out there, people can find that runs fine out of the box. Sure, PB fans have figured out how to use PB system over the years, but new players can just get a game that works. Then they can use their creativity to come up with new things for their game, instead of wasting time on trying to get the game work in the first place.

[Razzinold]

Bad reputation (either deserved or not is a matter for another debate)

Poorly organized books (I've been playing for 20+ years and I still have trouble locating some things in the books).

RAW (either too vague/open to interpretation or 100% steadfast but in a bizarre way)

Too difficult to find product (not everyone wants to order from their online store, and I can't find any store around me still carrying their product. Even if you are lucky enough to find a place willing to order you the book, who wants to wait for it to come in? When you want to game you want to game now, much easier to walk over to the shelf and start selecting books from the game line that has like 50+ books and new ones rolling in every month or so)

Lack of heavy online presence, i.e. late to the PDF market, heavily resistant to things like online character generators, and lack of advertising outside of this site (other than this forum where for the most part people are told to worship PB or take their opinions/business elsewhere, never been an issue for me but I know it has been for others in the past. I don't worship PB but I'm smart enough not to insult a man in his own home. There are more polite ways to air your grievances while still getting your point across.)

Lack of consistency when releasing new product and sometimes the quality itself (I know it bugs me when I spend like $40 on a new book and see the same cut and paste, especially when it's misspelled from a previous book, or see silly things like "1" instead of an i or a "3" instead of an e.

[Hunterrose]

Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but... will Palladium be at Strategicon in Los Angeles next month? http://strategicon.net/

[Big Red]

It's been a while since I've talked with any gamers about why they don't play Palladium, but the most frequent reason I heard was Palladium's reputation. None of them had actually tried it but they avoided it simply because of what they'd heard or read from others. They made a lot of the same arguments presented here but it was all based on hearsay, not actual experience. The people I know who do play are fiercely loyal although it's virtually impossible to find new product locally. There was one shop in town that carried it. They stopped but finally picked it up again after the regulars complained. Unfortunately, they only order about half of what they did before and I think they stopped giving a discount on PB stuff. I think they also quit buying used stuff, which is a shame because I used to be able to find some great deals on occasion.

[Shark_Force]

It's been a while since I've talked with any gamers about why they don't play Palladium, but the most frequent reason I heard was Palladium's reputation. None of them had actually tried it but they avoided it simply because of what they'd heard or read from others. They made a lot of the same arguments presented here but it was all based on hearsay, not actual experience. The people I know who do play are fiercely loyal although it's virtually impossible to find new product locally. There was one shop in town that carried it. They stopped but finally picked it up again after the regulars complained. Unfortunately, they only order about half of what they did before and I think they stopped giving a discount on PB stuff. I think they also quit buying used stuff, which is a shame because I used to be able to find some great deals on occasion.

depending on your relationship with the store owner, you may be able to get the store to refer anyone looking to sell specific books to you

(the FLGS around here doesn't stock PB stuff, but they will order a copy of whatever you need if you ask).

[Big Red]

depending on your relationship with the store owner, you may be able to get the store to refer anyone looking to sell specific books to you

(the FLGS around here doesn't stock PB stuff, but they will order a copy of whatever you need if you ask).

I asked them about that once. It's a great shop but they said they weren't touching used PB stuff in any way anymore. I bought up most of what they had left when they put it on deep, deep discount. It was all books I had already, but I couldn't pass on a bunch of extras for $1 or less each, mostly TMNT, AKA Best Game Ever.

[say652]

The thing i noticed was People buy what's in the Game Shop, good or not someone will buy try it and shelf it.

Pally needs to get the goods to the dealers.

[jaymz]

Hard to get the goods to the dealers when..

"March release......er June release.......er October release.......er Spring.......er Fall........er early next year......"

I have asked some game stores up here and even their distributors try not to carry any barring a bare minimum as a "just in case someone actually wants it" supply.

[The Dark Elf]

If I run any palladium at cons I always get a full house but no one has ever heard of them (Im UK remember). Dead Reign always gets a hit cos its zombies and its really good and doesnt have a clear contender of a zombie RPG (so its could be THE go to zombie RPG if pushed!).
I have NEVER had any player comment on any of the rules negatively which I attribute to the fact that I know them inside and out. there fore it must just be the layout of the books that are the issue and NOT the system (IMHO). I actually have several positives for Palladium rules over the most successful of systems.
Bad rep has GOT to be the biggest one - Im not sure they could overcome that with the same team at the helm Im sad (worried) to say. The company would need a complete overall for RPGers to perceive something different has happened (although in the background its prob just a few tweaks, investment, layouts etc., maybe third edition).
Next biggest one is the obvious release schedule. Always plagued PB's. Never improved. continues to add fuel to the bad rep fire as is prob the most damaging. Again, even if the next ten years were spot on, the damage is too great and unless the comapny changed hands or took on a new, public investor company, the perception IMHO wouldnt change in time.

I would like to see a successful way that PBs can keep all of the expansion material if a third system was ever designed btw (or re-released). Perhaps by making the Rift world book half hardcopy, half free download?? So for example the fluff text & land descriptions are downloaded but the OCCs and tech stats (juicy stuff) are bought but the books are small enough that they cost ten bucks or something...... (I dunno...).

enough waffling from me..

[say652]

Advertising, Advertising, Advertising!! Get the products out the door!!! And what's up with Modules?? Successful competitors sell them like Crack in Harlem......

[jaymz]

there fore it must just be the layout of the books that are the issue and NOT the system (IMHO).

For some one like you, or myself and many others on these forums, who do in fact know the system inside out, no the system will not be a problem, but as someone like Killer Cyborg can attest by his own analysis, for someone completely new to the system the system can indeed BE a problem and in some cases an insurmountable one, as the system is not intuitive as written with the layout just exasperating the issues.

And all off this in addition to some other items you said, makes my own word answer all the more accurate.

What keeps people from getting into Palladium? Palladium.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I run any palladium at cons I always get a full house but no one has ever heard of them (Im UK remember). Dead Reign always gets a hit cos its zombies and its really good and doesnt have a clear contender of a zombie RPG (so its could be THE go to zombie RPG if pushed!).
I have NEVER had any player comment on any of the rules negatively which I attribute to the fact that I know them inside and out. there fore it must just be the layout of the books that are the issue and NOT the system (IMHO).

Kind of.
I would posit that it's not that you know The System inside and out, as much as it is that you have translated Palladium's system into something that functions smoothly for you.
Knowing the system is a big part of that, but another part is that there's a LOT of areas of the rules where there are vague places or outright conflicts in the rules. Every time a GM gets to such a place, they have to decide how to interpret the text and/or resolve the conflict.
As a rule, people tend to pick an option that makes the most sense to them.
A lot of the time, this is an almost unconscious process.
The result is that if you get 10 GMs who all honestly swear that they play "exactly by the book," and that they "perfectly understand the rules," you'll still end up with roughly 10 different variations on the overall game.
It's one reason why there are so many rules arguments online, when it comes to Palladium's games.

The net result of all that is essentially what you say, though, because it takes a while of playing the game (and trying to run it) before one can really see how messed up the rules are.
It's not generally something that newbies can tell at a glance, or during a session or two of play, because they'll assume as a rule that they're the ones who aren't understanding things properly.

So yeah, format is a good part of it.
Palladium's rules are often oddly placed, often oddly ordered, and have virtually nothing in the way of proper glossaries or indexes, and THAT is the kind of thing that somebody can probably tell just by thumbing through the book in a store.

Still, there are a number of ways that rules can be off-putting, and there are some things that potential buyers can run into just by looking. There's a lot of dead-end stuff, like the percentage to Charm/Intimidate from attributes, which is simply never explained. There is a general lack of social interaction rules, and players interested in that kind of thing might be put off just by browsing the book.
Then there's stuff like all the different dice that are required, often for no substantial or obvious reason. You roll d20 to strike, D% for skills, Something else (D20 again, but in a different way?) for Perception. In a post-D20 world, a lot of gamers aren't interested in that kind of setup.
Similarly, a lot of gamers are now used to attribute bonuses (or penalties) being more important, and being spaced out more evenly.
Other gamers might look at the damage a pistol or rifle does, look at the SDC of a standard character, and decide that it's not as realistic as they'd like.
Even if Palladium found a perfect way to present and format their rules, some of their rules are outdated, unrealistic, or otherwise unappealing to any number of gamers. To an extent, this is a matter of taste, and I think that the market taste has changed over the decades to the point where a lot of the flavors of Palladium's system seems unappealing to many.

[Saitou Hajime]

Is Kevin an Answer? Every line needs a clear rework of the system with better references. not a new system but a clean up so things are well laid out and clear. perhaps there just need to be unified system book that Mechanics only.

[Zamion138]

A universal rule book that has everything rule wise from across the megaverse is NEEDED, it need to be expressly said these rules are the core rules . They trump all books.

Why can't we have fan made character programs, I get not want to give out resources from making books but have you ever used something like "Chummer" for shadowrun, it makes the game better it truely does.

Ads, any....not un comics, but websites and gaming sites in particular.

If you are going to allow a conversion, why on earth would you go with a system so insainly short ranged and blasie as Savage Worlds? Love it or hate it, the choice should have been D20 or GURPS. The white knighting of the system alone speaks to how diffrent in feel and atmosphere it is to the original.

Allow conversion at least turn a blind eye to it.

Consistency across books, im looking at you sdc systems, a .32 acp pistol should not hurt someone less than a kick from a karate fighter.

Other things

[Boethermsbrukan]

Evening, cubs and elders!

I can speak a fair bit about the local stores and bookdealers here in Toronto over the last 27 years or so, but not a lot more than that. I can only think of one games-only store in any recent memory here (they shut down because of lack of business around the turn of the century; I remember it because I know what book I last bought there and when I did, and how soon after that they closed up shop); it originally set up shop in the 1980s to meet the role-playing needs of the University of Toronto's new and ongoing gamers, right on the south edge of the multi-city-block campus. Every other store that had a really good selection of games and gaming supplies- with only one exception that I can think of- either phased out most or all of their gaming supply, or has long since gone out of business.

Silver Snail Queen (the Eglinton location had an absolute nutter range of gaming supplies, and a whole lot of Palladium Books of considerable range in release vintage, but it's been gone for a very long time now) was my first go-to when it came to Palladium's games; it was where I bought my first books (Monsters & Animals, Revised Edition was the first brand new gaming book I ever bought, around 1989, and Palladium Fantasy Book IV: Adventures In The Great Northern Wilderness was the second in early 1990 or 1991) and stuck to the store like glue all the way through junior high and high school. I know the Snail moved once (I don't remember when, sorry, but it would've been at least a decade or so ago) prior to moving to its current location, and they don't sell games now of any sort; it's more like a comic book store with decent selection with a small cafe attached to it.

The feeling I've gotten is that Palladium really doesn't have much in the way of 'new player awareness' here, or at least product availability. The one place I know still carries a whole lot of game books- including a good Palladium selection- is pretty much an oasis in the desert amongst the stores I visit or used to visit; they even had the most recent three Rifters right out in plain view, for example. But that's about it; every store I used to frequent, in most cases for quite a few years, that had a whole mess of Palladium Books as part of their standard fare has either gone out of business or no longer sells gamebooks or gaming supplies. If you do find a store here that handles a reasonable amount of book-and-paper gaming, Palladium's representation on their shelves has one heck of an uphill battle, and it's not Palladium the company's fault or anything; the 'bandwidth' for local gaming per books and supplies is very limited, and it's almost unheard of here, or so I've found, to find a comic book or gaming store that really goes ape for Palladium and its games.

I know there are least two stores here that I haven't gotten to visiting that probably do a decent trade in gaming books and supplies, but based on their homepages I don't think Palladium Books has a lot of representation on their shelves there, either. The current generation of gamers here (what there are of them, anyway) don't seem to have any P-Games on their radar at all. Once, a very long time ago, a local 'Saturday Morning Class' setup I attended (sort of like a day camp, but on Saturdays in the off-school months, and sometimes more) had a gaming session set up, in this case it was hosted by an old friend (who, incidentally, got me into Palladium and gaming in general), and I believe it was during the first couple of years I knew him in junior high. The game he ran was Dungeons & Dragons, or at least it tried to be, with twenty or so moderately-uninterested teenagers with my friend as the sole DM. After trying a few times to jump in myself, I noticed a youngster- to be fair, he probably was our age, not being that up in years myself- sitting at a table by himself a dozen or so feet from the chaos at my friend's so-called table, and I recognized the game books he had in front of him: Palladium Fantasy, the same Revised mainbook I had, along with a half-dozen supplements, as I recall. We spoke about the the PFRPG briefly, and I don't clearly recall the rest of it, I think, because it was something special- and still is, for me- to be at a gaming table with someone interested in, much less playing, Palladium Fantasy.

That said, I have never played in a Palladium Fantasy campaign, not once. The only other person I have ever known well who did was my aforementioned old friend, and without much in the way of friends or interested gamers thus, it never went beyond imaginings.

I feel like that fellow sitting by himself sometimes, and I really wish I could've found it in me to do more than I did, at least with my 20/20 hindsight kicking in, and the local book-and-paper gaming scene half in ruin, and most of the other half in disuse. I don't think it's Palladium's sole fault that its work isn't strongly represented here, to be perfectly fair; there's just not a whole lot of shelf space in stores that carry games in general now. A lot of modern gamers have moved on to pseudo-wargames like MageKnight (which is kind of neat, I admit), to CCGs like Yu-Gi-Oh! and the most recent incarnations of Magic: The Gathering, and there's a fair bit of gaming going on with Pathfinder and D&D (the generation it's at now, anyway, in terms of edition) and others have fallen back on pure wargames like Warhammer and its kin. I strongly suspect the vast majority of the current generation of modern gamers (say, who got started past the early 2000's) would have little knowledge of Palladium's offerings, simply because what is available is competing with one heck of a lot of other game lines in increasingly-polarized and narrowed shelves and potential purchases.

-Boe.

[flatline]

I vote the lack of proximity to the books.

The only people looking at Palladium books are people who already own them and their friends. It's been decades since I've seen a Palladium book on a store shelf. It's nice that there's enough of us around who keep buying books to keep the company afloat, but I don't see much potential for new blood.

--flatline

[Forar]

If you do find a store here that handles a reasonable amount of book-and-paper gaming, Palladium's representation on their shelves has one heck of an uphill battle, and it's not Palladium the company's fault or anything; the 'bandwidth' for local gaming per books and supplies is very limited, and it's almost unheard of here, or so I've found, to find a comic book or gaming store that really goes ape for Palladium and its games.

As a Toronto resident for the last 15 years or so, there are a number of shops with RPGs on their shelves. Hairy Tarantula on Yonge had a fairly broad selection of RPGs, including Palladium fare, last time I was in there at least (admittedly it has been a quarter or two). I'm pretty sure 401 Games has a healthy D&D/Pathfinder area. And those are just the two usual shops within walking distance I hit up regularly.

I disagree that it's necessarily about 'bandwidth', so much as the evolution of the industry is changing things. Online availability, both new and second hand (Amazon, Ebay, Craigslist, etc) mean I can have books new or used sent right to me, often at a significant cut off the MSRP. Digital availability; one can buy (or otherwise acquire, not that I do, just noting it's possible) entire swathes of games and series without even leaving home. As long as it's paid for, this isn't necessarily 'bad', but it means that RPGs, unlike many board games and minis games, lack the physicality that requires buying not just one copy but multiples. 2 decades ago my Rifts and D&D groups didn't just have one copy of the RMB or World Book X: More Stuff To Shoot In The Face, we'd have 2 or 3 or half a dozen between us. One only needs so many copies of "Hot Board Game _____", but with good word of mouth you can still drive sales strong enough to keep people roaming the shelves.

And the other way the market has shifted; CCGs. And not just CCGs; Magic. Magic is the bread and butter (from what I've read at least) for a great many shops. Not ALL gaming/comic shops by any means, but let's just say that if WOTC ever decides they're tired of making dumptrucks full of money each year off that product, a lot of stores are going to have to do some very painful math very quickly.

I agree that Palladium Books books are hard to find locally, but that's pretty widespread. I don't know where it went, but there used to be a (woefully out of date) thread somewhere on these forums about "Where To Find Palladium In Local Stores" and it wasn't exactly a bustling one.

I don't think that's bandwidth of a given area. I think it's more to do with the industry in general and Palladium in specific.

[Razzinold]

If you do find a store here that handles a reasonable amount of book-and-paper gaming, Palladium's representation on their shelves has one heck of an uphill battle, and it's not Palladium the company's fault or anything; the 'bandwidth' for local gaming per books and supplies is very limited, and it's almost unheard of here, or so I've found, to find a comic book or gaming store that really goes ape for Palladium and its games.

As a Toronto resident for the last 15 years or so, there are a number of shops with RPGs on their shelves. Hairy Tarantula on Yonge had a fairly broad selection of RPGs, including Palladium fare, last time I was in there at least (admittedly it has been a quarter or two). I'm pretty sure 401 Games has a healthy D&D/Pathfinder area. And those are just the two usual shops within walking distance I hit up regularly.

I disagree that it's necessarily about 'bandwidth', so much as the evolution of the industry is changing things. Online availability, both new and second hand (Amazon, Ebay, Craigslist, etc) mean I can have books new or used sent right to me, often at a significant cut off the MSRP. Digital availability; one can buy (or otherwise acquire, not that I do, just noting it's possible) entire swathes of games and series without even leaving home. As long as it's paid for, this isn't necessarily 'bad', but it means that RPGs, unlike many board games and minis games, lack the physicality that requires buying not just one copy but multiples. 2 decades ago my Rifts and D&D groups didn't just have one copy of the RMB or World Book X: More Stuff To Shoot In The Face, we'd have 2 or 3 or half a dozen between us. One only needs so many copies of "Hot Board Game _____", but with good word of mouth you can still drive sales strong enough to keep people roaming the shelves.

And the other way the market has shifted; CCGs. And not just CCGs; Magic. Magic is the bread and butter (from what I've read at least) for a great many shops. Not ALL gaming/comic shops by any means, but let's just say that if WOTC ever decides they're tired of making dumptrucks full of money each year off that product, a lot of stores are going to have to do some very painful math very quickly.

I agree that Palladium Books books are hard to find locally, but that's pretty widespread. I don't know where it went, but there used to be a (woefully out of date) thread somewhere on these forums about "Where To Find Palladium In Local Stores" and it wasn't exactly a bustling one.

I don't think that's bandwidth of a given area. I think it's more to do with the industry in general and Palladium in specific.

I went to one of the Harry Tarantula stores, not the one on Yonge Street, and that was because I happened to be at the Ikea on Leslie street. Mind you this was at least 5 years or more ago and the only PB I would was a few of the old books.

Now go ahead and call me lazy if you want but as a gamer I want to be able to go to my local game store, browse around and maybe pick up a new PB book. I don't want to have to drive 45 minutes to an hour and hope that they have something good for sale.

So lack of access to books is definitely a contributing factor. You also lose out on all those impulse sales. Can't even recall how many RPGs the wife and I bought because we happened to see it in the store and thought it looked cool (LOTR, Serenity, etc.) even though we planned on purchasing something else.

[Boethermsbrukan]

Forar, good afternoon! A pleasure to touch base with another T.O. gaming chummer.

As a Toronto resident for the last 15 years or so, there are a number of shops with RPGs on their shelves. Hairy Tarantula on Yonge had a fairly broad selection of RPGs, including Palladium fare, last time I was in there at least (admittedly it has been a quarter or two). I'm pretty sure 401 Games has a healthy D&D/Pathfinder area. And those are just the two usual shops within walking distance I hit up regularly.

I certainly concede that there is still a good bit of gaming support in general here (Hairy Tarantula, which I visited for the first time in many years this past Christmastime, was the store I mentioned with the last three new Rifters on their shelves in easy view) but I really don't see much in the way of Palladium's product here, physical product, anyway. The two stores I was referring to as not having visited are both along the Bloor-Danforth subway line (along with one store that used to move a lot of gaming product, Red Nails, and judging from my most recent visit, not much now): Duelling Grounds in Bloor West, and Face to Face Games, the latter much closer to me than the former (Woodbine Station and Woodbine Avenue proper is less than ten minutes' subway ride away). I've spoken via email to the manager of F2F, and they don't have much Palladium product in general, mainly because of lack of requests for orders from the clientele. They do, I will add, have a considerable library (no exaggeration) of books you can use in-store for reference, and there may well be Palladium Books in amongst them.

I disagree that it's necessarily about 'bandwidth', so much as the evolution of the industry is changing things. Online availability, both new and second hand (Amazon, Ebay, Craigslist, etc) mean I can have books new or used sent right to me, often at a significant cut off the MSRP. Digital availability; one can buy (or otherwise acquire, not that I do, just noting it's possible) entire swathes of games and series without even leaving home. As long as it's paid for, this isn't necessarily 'bad', but it means that RPGs, unlike many board games and minis games, lack the physicality that requires buying not just one copy but multiples. 2 decades ago my Rifts and D&D groups didn't just have one copy of the RMB or World Book X: More Stuff To Shoot In The Face, we'd have 2 or 3 or half a dozen between us. One only needs so many copies of "Hot Board Game _____", but with good word of mouth you can still drive sales strong enough to keep people roaming the shelves.

That's a fair statement, I think. For my part, physical products are my locked-down preference for gaming product; you'd not have any easier time selling me a 'digital d20', as in the polyhedral dice (and for argument's sake, there are certainly more than a few Windows and Mac programs that will fit that bill ^_^). I like the idea of a PDF or PDFs if I don't have a lot of space and also have my computer in front of me, but I don't think it'd ever come to it that I relied on digital books, and while the idea of having a direct shipment to my door of physical product (something Palladium is quite happy to accommodate) I feel like having a store I can depend on, where Fan Frothing is relevant and a positive boost to being a gamer is nothing to be ashamed of, is still going to be my preference.

And the other way the market has shifted; CCGs. And not just CCGs; Magic. Magic is the bread and butter (from what I've read at least) for a great many shops. Not ALL gaming/comic shops by any means, but let's just say that if WOTC ever decides they're tired of making dumptrucks full of money each year off that product, a lot of stores are going to have to do some very painful math very quickly.

Exactly so. I don't dislike CCGs, and for a time I bought a fair number of them, boosters, starters and all; but to me it's not the gaming I 'grew up' with, no more than LARPing is a complete and exact parallel to book-and-paper gaming. There was a time when if I said 'I play RPGs' it meant 'I play Palladium Fantasy/Rifts/D&D' and not 'I play Final Fantasy and Soul Calibur'. Computer gaming, specifically games that involve decision-making, role-playing and consequences of action (I'm thinking of The Elder Scrolls here, although the series is nowhere near the only one) always seemed to jump in in my memory from isometric Bard's Tales, Ultima and Master Of Orion right into (IMHO) graphics-intensive games like Oblivion, Skyrim, the last couple of Ultimas with polygon models, etc. I always felt that computer gaming where it was in 1992 had nowhere to keeping going but up; all of the sudden the TSR/SSI Gold Box games became Dungeon Siege. There never seemed to be any in-between there for me.

I agree that Palladium Books books are hard to find locally, but that's pretty widespread. I don't know where it went, but there used to be a (woefully out of date) thread somewhere on these forums about "Where To Find Palladium In Local Stores" and it wasn't exactly a bustling one.

Again, I concede the point to you. I'm basing my experience on the Toronto gaming market between about 1989 and the present (most clearly in my mind, the first half of those 28 years). Two particular stores I relied on heavily and regularly for my RPG needs, and specifically Palladium's work, have been gone for quite some time now.

#1 was Unknown Worlds, originally opened in the mid-1980s (I know this because I have a copy of a local fanzine from that era which had a Grand Opening blurb for the store in it), and discovered by me in the late 1980s. It was originally about two blocks east of Pape Avenue (closest Bloor-Danforth station was Pape, thus) where it resided for nearly a decade. Around 1994 or so, the store pulled up its stakes and settled into a property that was, quite pleasantly, less than five minutes walk from home, and for folks coming into the neighbourhood, a very short walk from Chester Station (you could see the front of the store from the intersection at Danforth Avenue). They got in almost every gaming line of the day I can think of, Palladium amongst them (I remember the day I found a book there that Silver Snail Queen couldn't get in. It was magical, I tell you!), including my favourite early World Book V: Triax and the NGR. Business, sadly, did not maintain itself, and the store shuttered around 1998-9 or so, with what I assume was considerable unsold product.

#2 was Shining Knight (for many years after the original owners sold the store, was called 'Comics & More'), with three locations less than a hundred yards apart between 1991, when I started high school nearby, and 2015, when the store (now Comics & More) shut its doors for good. Rob and Chris Charpentier, two brothers who loved comics, loved gaming, loved the fandom and both appreciated and understood their clientele considerably. Rob and Chris had a knack for finding bargains in the chaff: if a warehouse was having a dumper sale, they'd go to it and get stuff for a pittance (compared to full book price) and sell it at SK with just enough markup to turn a profit. I have a lot of treasures (and inexpensive ones at that) from my Knight days, including Palladium vintage books I had never seen anywhere else in my days; Justice Machine, the original TMNT GM Screen & Adventures, The Arms Of Nagash-Tor (the only solo adventure Palladium Fantasy ever had), the original red-dragon-by-Mr.-Siembieda Palladium Fantasy mainbook, Beyond The Supernatural 1st Ed. Mainbook and Boxed Nightmares...good stuff! The ending for Shining Knight/Comics & More, was a sad one, though: Rob, who had kept working at C&M after he and his brother sold the Knight, was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour in 2014, and succumbed to it in November of 2015. He was a big enough part of the store's spirit that C&M shut down the following February.

I don't think that's bandwidth of a given area. I think it's more to do with the industry in general and Palladium in specific.

Again, that's fair. I agree with you completely about the market shifting; CCGs becoming more of a mainstay (and yeah, Magic: the Gathering specifically being a heavy hitter) and online purchases (whether digital books or mail order physical) becoming more of the norm. I think a lot of how I look at it is based on what local gaming amounted to, both in player base and product in stores, in the early 1990s, which isn't really like a considerable amount of what's here in 2017. Maybe it's me missing that, I guess.

Now go ahead and call me lazy if you want but as a gamer I want to be able to go to my local game store, browse around and maybe pick up a new PB book. I don't want to have to drive 45 minutes to an hour and hope that they have something good for sale.

There really is that kind of visceral pleasure in expecting to find physical product waiting for you, and still being excited seeing it staring you down off the shelf, isn't there? ^_^ A lot of gaming purchases I've made were just that, splurges and accidental discovery of a game I end up liking a lot. Palladium Fantasy and Rifts I got into through a local friend here in Toronto, who pointed me in the direction of Silver Snail Queen so many years ago, but RPGs like Werewolf: the Apocalypse, Nephilim, Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0 and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, I would never have expected to find. I hadn't a gaming group, and all these years later, I've only had one that lasted a half-dozen sessions, and none of the few friends IRL I had were into book-and-paper.

I've still got to agree with Forar here, tho', at least in terms of the market changing. I 'grew up' in gaming in the days where there were no online forums (there were BBSes) and certainly no agreed format (as far as I know or knew) for pure digital distribution of gaming products. You know, come to think of it, I don't know when the PDF (Adobe Acrobat, which seems to be the overwhelming choice of format I know of now) became the frontrunner for digital RPG books. I know Acrobat was invented many years ago by Adobe (still have a very vintage 3.5" floppy installer box, legit and all, that dates from the early 1990s) but I don't think the PDF as a 'computer book' format approached at the beginning of its existence anything towards what it exists as now.

-Boe.

[Seto Kaiba]

Out my way (SE Michigan), the biggest obstacle I've had with getting people interested in Palladium's games has been a matter of presentation.

My local stores put most of their emphasis on TCGs and Warhammer 40,000, but for those who are interested in a pen and paper traditional RPG almost invariably find Palladium's presentation incredibly dated. The books aren't that bad mechanically... but when they're lined up next to more mainstream RPGs with hardbound books printed in full color with dynamic layouts, those softbound Palladium books printed in black and white with a fixed two-column layout look kinda shabby. I've had a couple very embarrassing moments where I've talked to other patrons about Palladium's games and found they'd assumed the books that were on display were secondhand books from the 90's (or earlier) because they looked so old-fashioned compared to the other titles on offer. (I couldn't really dispute it, because I have some old D&D books that belonged to my dad when he was a college student and even they're hardbound and in color.)

If Palladium stepped up its presentation to modern levels, they could probably bring in a fair bit more business from that alone.

[Boethermsbrukan]

Seto Kaiba, good evening! I'm sorry it took me a couple of days to post back in here; we had a very sudden and severe illness in the family here IRL a few days ago, and soon after a loss thus in the last twenty-four hours. As much as it'd be a welcome distraction from the grief I'm dealing with, I really haven't had much in the way of personal impulse to be posting anywhere in the last handful of days. Thanks for your patience with me!

Out my way (SE Michigan), the biggest obstacle I've had with getting people interested in Palladium's games has been a matter of presentation.

My local stores put most of their emphasis on TCGs and Warhammer 40,000, but for those who are interested in a pen and paper traditional RPG almost invariably find Palladium's presentation incredibly dated. The books aren't that bad mechanically... but when they're lined up next to more mainstream RPGs with hardbound books printed in full color with dynamic layouts, those softbound Palladium books printed in black and white with a fixed two-column layout look kinda shabby. I've had a couple very embarrassing moments where I've talked to other patrons about Palladium's games and found they'd assumed the books that were on display were secondhand books from the 90's (or earlier) because they looked so old-fashioned compared to the other titles on offer. (I couldn't really dispute it, because I have some old D&D books that belonged to my dad when he was a college student and even they're hardbound and in color.)

If Palladium stepped up its presentation to modern levels, they could probably bring in a fair bit more business from that alone.

A good point. I'm of a Palladium Player's vintage enough to have copies of the original printings of every Palladium Fantasy RPG book going back to #2 The Old Ones and #3 Adventures On The High Seas (although I eventually got a hold of the reprinted and partly redone books 2 & 3, as well as 'Wolfen Empire', which to a fair degree was an updated compilation of Books IV and V, the two Northern Wilderness books), and I eventually got hold of a copy of an earlier version of the 'Red Hydra' cover, drawn by Kevin, I believe, although it was many years after the aforementioned 'World Books' came my way, and I've gotten a feel for the kind of typefaces and printing styles used by Palladium (if Palladium Fantasy as a line is a good representation of its early progression) between the mid-1980s and late 1990s. The very early Palladium Books (as well as many of the early Palladium Books advertisements in Dragon Magazine, for example) used a typeface with equal letter spacing and collation that made me think of what a good dot-matrix printer or Daisy-wheel typewriter would produce. This is not at all meant as criticism, however; there was a certain 'homebrewed' or 'dungeon-crawling' feel to it, that it lent the text a flavour (along with the artwork) that for me was very appealing. I found the Wizards of the Coast redo of the D&D mainbooks (at least the 3.5 shelf set, which I own) to be, while visually appealing, a little too high-end; while WOTC managed to give it the bulk of the D&D/AD&D flavour, the three mainbooks looked less like game books and more like textbooks; looking better and sharper than, if I may be so bold, what my suspension of disbelief would allow in such a book. I still prefer to refer to my 2nd Ed/Revised or 4-box 1984 mainbooks if I'm looking for some inspirational meat.

Palladium's printed work seems to have settled in typeface and overall style since about 1990 or so, when Rifts was first out and most of pre-Macross II/Tactics Robotech by Palladium Books was out and on the shelves in the early 1990s. That was when I got into Rifts and Palladium Fantasy (1989, to be fair) and in many ways Palladium's strong reliance on their printing style- seeing very few changes prior to Heroes Unlimited 2nd Ed- I found to be very comforting. I really liked Werewolf: the Apocalypse (that would've been 1992 or so) and most of the 'Old' World Of Darkness (I have nothing positive to say about the 2003 'reboot') books, but the printing styles varied so much that I never really felt at home with it or them. I had originally thought the Werewolf: the Apocalypse 1st Ed. mainbooks (August 1992), freshly unpacked on Silver Snail Queen's second floor, were graphic novels that hadn't been brought down to the first floor where the comics were shelved! This in itself wasn't a bad thing- I loved the art and graphic representation of the Werewolf mainbooks, but I don't think I ever settled on it (at least to me) being an actual game. It was flavour text, eye candy. It never spoke to me in the same way a Rifts or Robotech or TMNT book did.

I can imagine with the kind of detailed printing work that goes into many role-playing game books now- full colour interiors are the norm now, and not anomalous like some that were in colour in 1996 (I'm thinking of the full-colour Star Trek: The Next Generation RPG hardback, which I thought was nutter to be selling for almost $70 locally when I looked at the price tag)- that Palladium's printing style, typefaces and overall look may seem dated. I speak for myself in that I've felt a great deal of comfort in knowing that Palladium's book presentation hasn't really changed a lot in the last fifteen years. Sort of like being really comfortable with much of the TSR-era D&D books and boxed sets; you knew what you'd find and it was just short of being expected of TSR in those days than not. But that's just my thoughts on it. I was very happy to see the kind of reliable detail- along with both excellent new artwork and some reprinted older work from Palladium Fantasy Books IV and V- in the writing for Wolfen Empire, of which I wasn't sure what to necessarily expect.

-Boe.

[Razzinold]

Now go ahead and call me lazy if you want but as a gamer I want to be able to go to my local game store, browse around and maybe pick up a new PB book. I don't want to have to drive 45 minutes to an hour and hope that they have something good for sale.

There really is that kind of visceral pleasure in expecting to find physical product waiting for you, and still being excited seeing it staring you down off the shelf, isn't there? ^_^ A lot of gaming purchases I've made were just that, splurges and accidental discovery of a game I end up liking a lot. Palladium Fantasy and Rifts I got into through a local friend here in Toronto, who pointed me in the direction of Silver Snail Queen so many years ago, but RPGs like Werewolf: the Apocalypse, Nephilim, Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0 and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, I would never have expected to find. I hadn't a gaming group, and all these years later, I've only had one that lasted a half-dozen sessions, and none of the few friends IRL I had were into book-and-paper.

I've still got to agree with Forar here, tho', at least in terms of the market changing. I 'grew up' in gaming in the days where there were no online forums (there were BBSes) and certainly no agreed format (as far as I know or knew) for pure digital distribution of gaming products. You know, come to think of it, I don't know when the PDF (Adobe Acrobat, which seems to be the overwhelming choice of format I know of now) became the frontrunner for digital RPG books. I know Acrobat was invented many years ago by Adobe (still have a very vintage 3.5" floppy installer box, legit and all, that dates from the early 1990s) but I don't think the PDF as a 'computer book' format approached at the beginning of its existence anything towards what it exists as now.

-Boe.

Judging by the stuff you mentioned in the above post I would assume we are close in age, I will be 38 this year, and I remember BBSes and floppy discs on the Commodore 64, but that level of nostalgia still doesn't make me want to drive all that way on a maybe, especially with how limited my free time is and the price of gas.

I used to love wondering around my local shop, World's Collide, and picking up some awesome stuff, I liked it even better when he had his original location in the mall and PB artist Ramon Perez worked there, but those days are kind of gone.
I guess part of it is my fault because I don't play other game lines, like Pathfinder or D&D, and the other is the lack of interest/demand for PB product so they don't carry it.

It's hard to decide which is more difficult these days, finding PB product in a reasonable proximity to where I live....or finding/making a group still willing to play any PB games lol

[Whiskeyjack]

Shelf space seems to be a big issue here as well. The store I used to buy all my Palladium books from used to have an entire display dedicated to Palladium, and carried all the lines. Now they have a box in the basement of left over stock. The other store that I frequent only has used for sale. There are usually between one and four books on the shelf. They will special order in for me, that's how I got Bizantium, but they won't actually stock new product. The last store locally has nothing that I've ever seen.
Everyone one up here seems to be into either Magic, or Pathfinder. The other games I see are Star Wars, Firefly and a few AD&D.
Personally, I'd throw a lot more money Palladiums way if they'd give me product to buy. I'm into fantasy right now. If they put out a bunch of PF books, I'd buy them. Especially a proper Wolfen Empire book, Old Kingdom books, and the rest of the 1st edition books updated.
The other part of the problem, in my view, is the complete lack of support in their own forums, filled with their own fans and customers. When was the last time an actual staff member clarified a rule or answered a question on the forum? In the fantasy forum, I can't recall a time in the last couple of years at least. If you're going to run a website and forum, you should dang well invest in it and engage your customers.

[Boethermsbrukan]

Razzinoid, good evening!

Judging by the stuff you mentioned in the above post I would assume we are close in age, I will be 38 this year, and I remember BBSes and floppy discs on the Commodore 64, but that level of nostalgia still doesn't make me want to drive all that way on a maybe, especially with how limited my free time is and the price of gas.

Heh! Old soldier, well met! I suspected we were close in age when we were posting back and forth several months ago; this pup will be 40 this coming December (2017), and as much as she's not feeling quite as old as she expected to, she knows she's not quite a 'flea' anymore. ^_^ I agree with you completely about the costs of travel, even if it was east to Ottawa or further westward to where I am; if you can have a digital or online-order option instead, it can be a lot easier to deal with.

I used to love wondering around my local shop, World's Collide, and picking up some awesome stuff, I liked it even better when he had his original location in the mall and PB artist Ramon Perez worked there, but those days are kind of gone. I guess part of it is my fault because I don't play other game lines, like Pathfinder or D&D, and the other is the lack of interest/demand for PB product so they don't carry it.

I remember having it mentioned to me at an Ad Astra that Ramon Perez worked at World's Collide (I've never been there, but I remember it being the name of a comic/gaming shop); so we're talking better than ten years ago for this pup. ^_^ I believe that was the AA I met Dave Sim (Cerebus) at, and I think Ramon's table was set up in the same general area (my memory may be faulty as to whether or not Ramon was intending to be there that year; it may just be the mention of his working at World's Collide- I'm afraid my memory going that far back tends to be a bit crap ^_^), although I don't recall meeting him in person, if he was there.

I suspect my friend Robert and Christopher Charpentier's 'Shining Knight' was my particular 'World's Collide' here in Toronto; I don't know if I found SK before I saw the advertisement (I could see the store from the front of the subway station I got off at when I started high school a couple of blocks away in late 1991) or found the ad in an old yearbook and realized I could walk there from my high school in less than ten minutes, and investigated thus. Shining Knight had a considerable amount of Palladium product on their gaming shelves, which I admit weren't huge, but Rob (who managed most of the storefront biz) was happy to get in anything a customer was inclined to pick up, and there were apparently a fair number of Palladium Fantasy and Rifts and Rifter fans besides myself who frequented the store. I think he and Chris aimed for wide bandwidth (as in range of company product and less well-known works) rather than a 'game wall'; I loved Silver Snail Queen's Half-League Game Shelf on the second floor, but I know SK couldn't have fielded that kind of long-term product. It was a labour of love between Chris and Rob, and I'm glad I was part of it as a regular.

It's hard to decide which is more difficult these days, finding PB product in a reasonable proximity to where I live....or finding/making a group still willing to play any PB games lol

I remember the last Palladium session- in this case, it was Rifts- I was in anytime recently; it was at Ad Astra 20 in 2000, and I remember it well because the hotel it was at for that one year was right on an all-night bus route I often used (in the daytime, I mean) and was able to take that route home from the hotel, even though I probably checked out for that Saturday around two in the morning. I don't think I've ever been in any ongoing Palladium Fantasy or Rifts campaign in my playing lifetime; I haven't given up on finding a group here in Toronto someday, but I'm not counting on it being easy. o_o As for Palladium product on the shelves here, it's tricky enough to do so here in the middle of Toronto (Hairy Tarantula carries a fair bit of current Palladium Books, but I haven't seen a lot of other stores I still visit who do); I definitely understand.

Whiskeyjack, good evening!

Shelf space seems to be a big issue here as well. The store I used to buy all my Palladium books from used to have an entire display dedicated to Palladium, and carried all the lines. Now they have a box in the basement of left over stock. The other store that I frequent only has used for sale. There are usually between one and four books on the shelf. They will special order in for me, that's how I got Bizantium, but they won't actually stock new product. The last store locally has nothing that I've ever seen.

Shining Knight was very much the same way when I frequented it; limited shelf space, with the only big difference between it and the store you visit now being that SK did get in 'new' new Palladium Books (I initially found out about Heroes Unlimited 2nd Ed. and Palladium Fantasy 2nd Ed. when they both showed up on SK's game shelf) instead of it being mostly 'request order' only. Right now my best bet for a local store with shelf stock is Hairy Tarantula, which I visited this past December...and sadly, will be pulling up stakes in the next couple of weeks. I believe it was late February the fellow I spoke to in December said they'd be moving all of their stock to Hairy Tarantula North, still in Toronto, but a bit longer to get to. As for good memories of Shining Knight, and the owners Rob and Chris, they made their product placement (in magazines, comics, RPGs, CCGs and collector's cards, and even the comic 'premium wall') in the space they had available to them exceptionally appealing, good enough that they didn't usually have to stick product right under any customers' noses for them to find what they wanted. But yeah...the 1990s were a while ago, now.

Everyone one up here seems to be into either Magic, or Pathfinder. The other games I see are Star Wars, Firefly and a few AD&D.

That's more or less what we've got here in Toronto, too. There are only two dedicated RPG/CCG shops, both along a major subway line I'm near myself, that I haven't visited yet here, and I know one of them (spoke back-and-forth with the store manager several months ago, and visited their online shop) is more of a 'CCG/Magic with book-and-paper gaming on the side' place, with the aforementioned wee bit of Pathfinder and WOTC book product. The other place is out in the west end, and I didn't even know it'd been there for a while before I started looking; it has the feel of a Warhammer 'sandtable game' setup, with what sounds like a considerable amount of space dedicated to playing games, but I'll have to see about going there at some point regarding the book-and-paper content. I don't think book-and-paper gaming is at all dead here in Toronto, but it's subdued. You have to look for it here when it comes to a game in particular, and right now that includes pretty much anything I can think of from Palladium Books.

-Boe.

[jaymz]

Razzinold can attest to the lengths i went thru to support and get palladium games played....

Now i just do support materials on my personal wiki as i have given up on it and i presently refuse to support palladium directly anymore for reasons i will not go into publicly on their iwn forums.

[Boethermsbrukan]

Jaymz, good evening!

Razzinold can attest to the lengths i went thru to support and get palladium games played....

Now i just do support materials on my personal wiki as i have given up on it and i presently refuse to support palladium directly anymore for reasons i will not go into publicly on their iwn forums.

Where I come from in regards to regular play, I guess is more along the lines of 'If and when, exactly?' than being able to count on a session of any length. If it's any of my business to say, I admire the kind of determination you speak of! ^_^ If a question comes up, I'll run it by Razzinoid, then; I apologize if I've salted a wound of yours at all.

-Boe.

[jaymz]

No wound at all. Justva sad reality nothing more.

[Boethermsbrukan]

Jaymz, good evening once again!

No wound at all. Justva sad reality nothing more.

I'm happy to know it. I hope that even tho' your support in the moment is put aside, you'll enjoy the books you already have and the work you've done on your own, and with others. Gaming has been important to me for a very long time, and I know there are writers and publishers I've changed my thoughts on a great deal because of choices they've made, but I love reading the books I do have; whether gaming materiel proper, magazines like Gateways and Challenge and Dragon Magazine, or published fiction, I don't think I dig the works themselves any less.

-Boe.

[jaymz]

Oh I do. The 1000+ entries on my wiki is proof of that lol

[Boethermsbrukan]

Jaymz, good evening!

Oh I do. The 1000+ entries on my wiki is proof of that lol

No kidding, aye! ^_^ I visited your Wiki about an hour ago, and I'm thoroughly impressed with the range of interests you've applied yourself to. Thank you again for sharing it with me!

-Boe.

[gaby]

Maybe doing more Robotech books like the Ships and Zentraedi,s ones could help Draw in more People?

[jaymz]

sadly i say probably not. RT is an old tired property that relies too much on the nostalgia of a 40+ year old aging fanbase by and large,

[say652]

Everyone I talk to says they didn't Know that Palladium was still in business. "Haven't heard anything from them since the 90's "

[jaymz]

And that is truth.

[Whiskeyjack]

Funny enough, at our Mordheim game last night I met another person who has played Rifts for years and is just getting into Fantasy.