News on the upcoming Rifts Board Game

[vitae_drinker]

I think the voting is very telling, Carmen. As I said in my now deleted post, I will not back your Kickstarter because of how the Robotech Kickstarter has ended up. When 30 out of 50 votes on Palladium's own forums are "no," maybe you should really be considering your options. The phrase "throwing away good money after bad" comes to mind.

[The Dark Elf]

I am stoked about this!

I have a board game night at least once a week (have done for years!) and am actually currently playing a Descent campaign. So I am super excited to see the Rifts setting get a board game!

And knowing the great work Carmen did on RRT rules as well as his work with other gaming companies this makes it all the more exciting! And Im glad that its nothing to do with Palladium so that they can continue with RPGs and Carmen can focus on this product. When has Carmen ever let us down? Never. #nopressure

Those minis look fkin superb too btw!!

[Carmen]

Hey there everyone

I will answer a couple of quick comments first.

Tiree:
I am interested in hearing about the Board Game. But I am not a Facebook supporter/user/follower/socialmediatechnophobe. So if you can, please keep posting updates here as well.
Besides the more you publicize your game on many different outlets and media, the more likely you will see a return on your investment.
If you and others want me to still post here and on the new Facebook page I can arrange that but I would like to move the real discussion to the new Facebook page. But I can continue to post images and game updates here if you and others would find that useful.


vitae_drinker:
I think the voting is very telling, Carmen. As I said in my now deleted post, I will not back your Kickstarter because of how the Robotech Kickstarter has ended up. When 30 out of 50 votes on Palladium's own forums are "no," maybe you should really be considering your options. The phrase "throwing away good money after bad" comes to mind.
It's normal for those with a complaint to be the most boisterous about their opinion and I believe most of the negative votes are due to the RTT, indeed I expected the ratio to be more negative. So the poll still gives me a pretty good look at what I will be facing and I believe I will still be successful at running a KS, but thank you for the concern.


The Dark Elf:
I am stoked about this!
I have a board game night at least once a week (have done for years!) and am actually currently playing a Descent campaign. So I am super excited to see the Rifts setting get a board game!
And knowing the great work Carmen did on RRT rules as well as his work with other gaming companies this makes it all the more exciting! And Im glad that its nothing to do with Palladium so that they can continue with RPGs and Carmen can focus on this product. When has Carmen ever let us down? Never. #nopressure
Those minis look fkin superb too btw!!
I am stoked about it too! And the minis look great! My sculptors have done a really great job! Thanks for the vote of confidence, and I hope I give the fans all they desire in a Rifts Board Game.


Okay so I promised to have a Facebook page up by the 5th and its up at https://www.facebook.com/RogueHeroesPublishing/ so hopefully you will all join me over there for updates and info about the game as I get it finished for KS.
Thanks for your time, Carmen

[MurderCityDisciple]

I think the voting is very telling, Carmen. As I said in my now deleted post, I will not back your Kickstarter because of how the Robotech Kickstarter has ended up. When 30 out of 50 votes on Palladium's own forums are "no," maybe you should really be considering your options. The phrase "throwing away good money after bad" comes to mind.

If you look at the 4 choices in this poll and what they mean as far as the strength of this Kickstarter's potential, the numbers are beyond grim.

Cool! I can't wait for the kickstarter!---IS A YES
I'll pick it up it when it comes out at my FLGS.---IS a 'Will believe it when I see it'
I will give it a try.----IS another 'Will Believe it when I see it'
I'll pass.---HELL NO

So essentially it's 2 out of 10 are for this Kickstarter, while the rest are taking a wait and see approach. Not a whole lot of enthusiasm.

If it were me, I'd throw in the towel.

If I saw a restaurant with a 22% positive rating on Yelp, I'd surely pass.

[LeperColony]

I will not back another Palladium product. Yes, they are only the licensor, but they stand to profit if this is a success, and with how they've treated we RTT backers, they don't deserve that chance.

You say you're friends with Kevin and you still have faith in PB. But you need to understand that for those of us who are just customers, we have been subjected to years of lies, indifference and avoidance.

I wouldn't be surprised if some RTT backers back your board game at $1 just to lob poison comments at PB. That is the reality of what you are looking at.

RTT backers range on a continuum of anger, but even the most positively disposed are highly disappointed. Most are livid. Suppressing expression of that anger with forum admin privileges is not going to help you or your project. If you really want a fair shake, PB has to do better with its RTT backers.

At a minimum, they have to be honest with the following:

1) Has any of the Kickstarter money been used for anything other than RTT?

2) Of the ~$1.4m raised, what remains for producing Wave Two?

3) Did PB overspend on production for retail distribution, and has that production imperiled Wave Two?

We are sick and tired of quarterly (if we're lucky) and vague pronouncements from the mount. Every few months, Palladium releases a "Wave Two is coming, we are trying, have faith in us, this will be awesome" KS Update, then disappear without answering questions, addressing concerns, or offering refunds.

This is what you are walking into. You want to not just address anger, but possibly win over some RTT backers? Use that connection with Kevin to get us some decent treatment.

[Seto Kaiba]

Cool! I can't wait for the kickstarter!---IS A YES
I'll pick it up it when it comes out at my FLGS.---IS a 'Will believe it when I see it'
I will give it a try.----IS another 'Will Believe it when I see it'
I'll pass.---HELL NO

So essentially it's 2 out of 10 are for this Kickstarter, while the rest are taking a wait and see approach. Not a whole lot of enthusiasm.

When you think about it, the way the voting is shaking out says a LOT about the public relations damage that's been done by Palladium's ongoing mishandling of the Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter. Options 2 and 3 are more or less just different ways of saying "I have no confidence in your ability to deliver on your promises on a Kickstarter project, so since I don't want to get screwed over (again) I'll think about buying the game if and when it's completed and delivered to retailers." The people who voted Option 4 are the ones who aren't likely to buy the game even if it's completed and released, unless Palladium takes drastic action to repair its customer relations.

So it's not s'much 22% "I'll buy it" and 78% "I'll wait and see"... it's more like 22% willing to back it, 18% who won't back it but are on the fence and might buy it if it makes it to retail, and 60% who likely won't buy it period.

This is Palladium's official web site, which is where you'd reasonably expect to find its most loyal fans. That barely 1 in 5 are willing to actually support this proposed project says this is a death spiral waiting to happen.

I wouldn't be surprised if some RTT backers back your board game at $1 just to lob poison comments at PB. That is the reality of what you are looking at.

Considering that a Kickstarter by a Palladium partner saw a significant percentage of its backers in that "Pledged $1 just to voice their discontent" demographic and several higher-level donors indicating they intended to back out of it and withdraw their pledges right at the end to ensure failure, I would not be surprised if the majority of the low-level backers for this did precisely that.

These people are so pissed off with the way RRT has been handled that they're perfectly willing to sink the ship just to drown the captain.

[Morgan Vening]

Options 2 and 3 are more or less just different ways of saying "I have no confidence in your ability to deliver on your promises on a Kickstarter project, so since I don't want to get screwed over (again) I'll think about buying the game if and when it's completed and delivered to retailers."

The third option's placement infers that, but the phrasing means it can easily be read as giving the Kickstarter "a try". Meaning they'll need to see a lot more before backing. So we don't know what the people who voted for that are thinking. So we should probably remove them from the argument, for or against.

While the percentages still look bad, it's the numbers that I find more worrisome. Even if you include the people in the third category, that's 21 people. PB's PBWU entries get 60+ likes most of the time. Uninformative Robotech Tactics Updates get 25+ Likes (Informative ones get triple that).

There are many reasons why this could be the case (it's not been advertised enough, it's not an RPG, what's been shown hasn't drawn the interest). But 21 in 10 days is anemic. I'm sure more will jump on board during the campaign if quality is shown, and there is good value in place. But it does say something that there's not a lot of pre-hype. What it says is open to interpretation, but still...

[Tiree]

Hey there everyone

I will answer a couple of quick comments first.

Tiree:
I am interested in hearing about the Board Game. But I am not a Facebook supporter/user/follower/socialmediatechnophobe. So if you can, please keep posting updates here as well.
Besides the more you publicize your game on many different outlets and media, the more likely you will see a return on your investment.
If you and others want me to still post here and on the new Facebook page I can arrange that but I would like to move the real discussion to the new Facebook page. But I can continue to post images and game updates here if you and others would find that useful.

Carmen - I am not asking to be part of the discussion. But I would love to continue see the work you are doing. And I am sure if I had some thought or idea that would be awesomesauce and PM it to you here on PB's boards. You wouldn't object

I hope you find success in your new business. I totally understand the pitfalls and joy of starting up your own company. May you have more joy, than pitfalls.

[vitae_drinker]

vitae_drinker:
I think the voting is very telling, Carmen. As I said in my now deleted post, I will not back your Kickstarter because of how the Robotech Kickstarter has ended up. When 30 out of 50 votes on Palladium's own forums are "no," maybe you should really be considering your options. The phrase "throwing away good money after bad" comes to mind.
It's normal for those with a complaint to be the most boisterous about their opinion and I believe most of the negative votes are due to the RTT, indeed I expected the ratio to be more negative. So the poll still gives me a pretty good look at what I will be facing and I believe I will still be successful at running a KS, but thank you for the concern.

So, what you're saying is that REGARDLESS of what the poll says, you're going forward. Well, that's your decision. I think that if the (albeit limited) market research amongst your primary market shows a resounding 60% "no", a 20% "wait and see" (to be nice), and a 20% "yes", then you should be going "Oh, %℅©^£. This isn't good. Maybe I should really think about going forward with this at this time." Any decent businessman would drop this project until more favorable conditions could be gained (aka maybe force Palladium to fulfill their obligations before any more projects are started).

I would like this game I think. It's right in my milieux. I LOVE miniatures. I cannot in good conscience support it with the way Palladium conducts their business. Maybe if you were partnered with some other miniatures/board game company rather than just with Palladium, I could support it like I supported the Savage Worlds game. I would love to have some good minis to use with it.

I hope you don't lose too much money on it, Carmen. But I think you're in for some harsh lessons.

[LeperColony]

I wouldn't be surprised if some RTT backers back your board game at $1 just to lob poison comments at PB. That is the reality of what you are looking at.

Considering that a Kickstarter by a Palladium partner saw a significant percentage of its backers in that "Pledged $1 just to voice their discontent" demographic and several higher-level donors indicating they intended to back out of it and withdraw their pledges right at the end to ensure failure, I would not be surprised if the majority of the low-level backers for this did precisely that.

These people are so pissed off with the way RRT has been handled that they're perfectly willing to sink the ship just to drown the captain.

Honestly, if he was smart, he wouldn't even include a $1 pledge. I can't see much good coming from it, and potentially a lot of bad.

[Spinachcat]

Carmen, I wish you the best of luck...and you will need it.

Are you partnering with an experienced minis company? AKA, someone like Reaper or Cool Minis or Not (CMON)? Reaper is particularly interesting because I understand they can crank out minis in the USA now.

I like Skirmish Boardgames so I will be interested in your rules and KS. The comment section chaos alone will be worth the dollar.

I must say that I would be FAR more interested in your KS if your minis were pre-paints. I already have a bunch of boardgames with gray figs.

BTW, have you seen how the Modiphius KS Conan RPG has cross-pollinated with the Monolith KS boardgame? The Conan figs work great with the Conan RPG. In fact, many people backed the Conan boardgame just for the figs for various RPGs.

Perhaps that synergy is something you should pursue. AKA, if you are going to make a bunch of minis, why not expand your market beyond the boardgame? I am sure both the PB Rifts and SW Rifts players would be interested. Heck, non-Rifts RPGs would be interested for all sorts of post-apoc games, Gamma World, Shadowrun, etc.

BTW, there are an oddly low number of people in this poll, especially considering its about Rifts. I highly suggest doing months of aggressive online marketing (and public playtesting) before you launch your KS.

[Glistam]

I suspect this poll and topic was less about the final percentages and more about whether anyone at all would vote to support the Kickstarter. Don't forget that Savage Rifts was very well funded despite all the disillusioned and vocal RRT backers who refused to be a part of that, too.

[say652]

Hi Everyone
This little bit of news is to let you all in on the new upcoming Rifts Board Game.
I purchased the IP rights from Palladium Books and the board game will be published by my little company Rogue Heroes.
Kevin has shown off a few pieces of the card art in the Weekly Updates, but I thought it was time to show off one of the 3-D miniature sculpts for the game for you all to see.
So here is "Carl" the Grackle Tooth the first of the minis I will show off before the kickstarter.
Enjoy, because I'm not going to be posting too many of them before the kickstarter campaign begins.
Thanks and have a great time gaming with Palladium!

[youtube]<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/CFTRv2KTV94" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/youtube]

I'll definately grab it, when it hits the stores

[ScottBernard]

I suspect this poll and topic was less about the final percentages and more about whether anyone at all would vote to support the Kickstarter. Don't forget that Savage Rifts was very well funded despite all the disillusioned and vocal RRT backers who refused to be a part of that, too.

And dont forget that was mainly due to the SAVAGE WORLDS fans. How could you possibly even compare the two?

[Glistam]

I suspect this poll and topic was less about the final percentages and more about whether anyone at all would vote to support the Kickstarter. Don't forget that Savage Rifts was very well funded despite all the disillusioned and vocal RRT backers who refused to be a part of that, too.

And dont forget that was mainly due to the SAVAGE WORLDS fans. How could you possibly even compare the two?

It was easy. Both are non-Palladium companies using a Palladium IP. Savage Rifts was PEG's most successful Kickstarter so it couldn't have been "mainly" Savage Worlds fans making that happen.

[vitae_drinker]

Neither of you have any proof to back up either of your claims. Was it the Savage Worlds fans that gave it such a great Kickstarter? Was it all the Palladium lovers backing it? Was it people who liked the idea of Rifts but hated Palladium's house system?

I prefer to think it's a little of column "a" (a lot of Savage Worlds fans would back anything PEG kickstarts), a dash of column "b" (given the raw numbers, there aren't that many Palladium fans), and hefty helping of column "c" (people like me who don't like Palladium's rules but do like Rifts storyline). But honestly, unless you do a proper survey of all the backers (which could be relatively easily accomplished given PEG knows who they are), we have no real data to assert any of those conclusions.

[Glistam]

If Carmen were to launch his project after Wave 2 delivers, I bet he would receive a lot more funding than if he launches it now.

I think that's a fair point we can all agree on, but if he waits until after Wave 2 delivers he may never launch it at all.

[Panomas II]

I suspect this poll and topic was less about the final percentages and more about whether anyone at all would vote to support the Kickstarter. Don't forget that Savage Rifts was very well funded despite all the disillusioned and vocal RRT backers who refused to be a part of that, too.

And dont forget that was mainly due to the SAVAGE WORLDS fans. How could you possibly even compare the two?

It was easy. Both are non-Palladium companies using a Palladium IP. Savage Rifts was PEG's most successful Kickstarter so it couldn't have been "mainly" Savage Worlds fans making that happen.

Rogue Heroes certainly has an uphill battle. I think Carmen would admit that himself on the eve of his first kickstarter. Though certainly, there could be some pour over from those that backed the Savage Rifts Kickstarter. Especially since they weren't able to produce minis and Carmen is about to.

I think he'd get more positive feedback, if he posted a similar topic over at the Savage Worlds forums rather than here. (just a thought)

Just out of curiosity: Carmen have you set a funding goal? AND What will aim to be the minimum pledge to receive the game itself?

[Carmen]

Hi guys I am swamped but Just wanted to say thanks for the continued interest.
This weekend I will do a big reply, but for now I am too busy. I will make sure I put something up on Sunday.
BTW: Yes I have posted on the PEG forums too.
Thanks
Carmen

[FleshharrowerX]

Will this game feature playing pieces that are one piece miniatures or will they be models that we have to build?

[Carmen]

Hi everyone
I came on yesterday to do a big reply post but I don't see anything new to reply to, so today I will go back through the old posts commented on a few of the things I have missed.
First some general answers.
Yes, everyone, I will be running my Kickstarter regardless of the poll. As I have said before I did the poll to get the lay of the land, not to be scared off because some of the RRT backers may be unpleasant. They have a reason to be upset, I am one of them in that regard, but unfortunately there is nothing I can do about it right now. Maybe if my KS is successful that might change.
I do believe that like in most things the silent majority has remained silent on the subject, as happens most often in life, and will respond favorably to a Rifts: Board Game. Remember that a lot of Rifts player never backed the RRT and don't care what is happening with it. There are also many others that don't play the RPG anymore due to time issues but would play a Rifts board game.
Next, I have no opinion on what made the Savage Rifts such a success, although I do believe the Rifts IP had to be a very strong influence on its success. I backed their KS for Rifts after all and up to that point I had not played Savage Worlds RPGs more than a handful of times and I believe I am not alone in that.
Again, I have nothing to do with the RRT and Rogue Heroes is running the Rifts: Board Game Kickstarter. Unlike Ninja Division which was hired by Palladium to run the RRT Kickstarter, I licensed the rights to Rifts for miniatures and board games, and do not have to report to Palladium on my KS, I only have to pay them their licensing fees and ensure that I do not violate our contract.
Okay now let's answer some posts:


LeperColony:
Honestly, if he was smart, he wouldn't even include a $1 pledge. I can't see much good coming from it, and potentially a lot of bad.
I can definitively tell you I will not be having a $1 pledge, not because I am afraid of the RRT blow-back, but because I believe $1 pledges are dishonest. A backer of a $1 pledge gets nothing of value for their pledge and "I will post your name on my website" rewards are worthless. No I want each backer to get something for their money, and to know that Rogue Heroes gave them value for money.


Spinachcat:
Are you partnering with an experienced minis company? AKA, someone like Reaper or Cool Minis or Not (CMON)? Reaper is particularly interesting because I understand they can crank out minis in the USA now.
I like Skirmish Boardgames so I will be interested in your rules and KS. The comment section chaos alone will be worth the dollar.
I must say that I would be FAR more interested in your KS if your minis were pre-paints. I already have a bunch of boardgames with gray figs.
I am not partnering with another minis company, but I am getting quotes from the same manufacturers that actually make the minis for CMON, Fantasy Flight, Megacon Games and others. Partnering with CMON or others would simply drive up the cost of the game as they would just be the middle man between me and the factory.
Likewise, the minis will NOT be pre-painted because pre-painting roughly triples the cost of the minis and the quality can be poor if you don't have a rep in China watching the production.
Finally I do hope you come along for the KS, and hopefully the comments will be a little tamer than you would hope. And thanks for the interest.


Panomas II:
Rogue Heroes certainly has an uphill battle. I think Carmen would admit that himself on the eve of his first kickstarter. Though certainly, there could be some pour over from those that backed the Savage Rifts Kickstarter. Especially since they weren't able to produce minis and Carmen is about to.
I think he'd get more positive feedback, if he posted a similar topic over at the Savage Worlds forums rather than here. (just a thought)
Just out of curiosity: Carmen have you set a funding goal? AND What will aim to be the minimum pledge to receive the game itself?
I do admit that I will have challenges ahead, but nothing risked, nothing gained! From my posts on the PEG forums I do think I will get a good number of Savage Rifts backers. They are playing (and I currently play it too) a miniature based RPG in which they have no official miniatures available. A market my game can definitely satisfy. Heck even the "board" will be a pretty standard combat map. And yes I do get positive feedback on their forums. I started posting there at the same time I started posting here.
I do have a funding goal, minimum pledge and rewards figured out, but I will not post them until the KS launches as I don't believe here is the place to reveal that information.
Again thanks for your input and thoughts.


FleshharrowerX:
Will this game feature playing pieces that are one piece miniatures or will they be models that we have to build?
They will definitely be one-piece miniatures, even if they must be manufactured in multiple pieces they will be pre-assembled before the customer receives them. I am a lazy sod at heart and do not want to produce a game that I have to sit and build minis for. I know that's just me, but I think a lot of others will agree with me.


Okay that looks like everything. Well have a good time gaming until the next time I read your posts.
Thanks
Carmen

[Carmen]

Hi all
Just posted some new vids I think you might like to see over on the Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/RogueHeroesPublishing/
Come over and take a look.
Carmen

[Summersnow]

I wish you the best of luck on your "not palladium" kickstarter.

I'd like to point out a few things you should avoid in the kickstarter if you wish it to succeed and offer some thoughts on things you should prepare for.

#1 From your Q&A post

Q: Is the intention of the KS to create a production run to make it into distribution, or solely to fulfill the KS pledges? Assuming the first, what will the break-even numbers for various print runs?
A: It is pointless to do KS just to fulfill the KS pledges alone. Without post-KS distribution, there is no point in doing a KS at all. A game needs to have a life after the KS is over

Given that one of the complaints people have with RTT is that Palladium has shown zero interest in three + years in the kickstarter backers I'm not sure leading off with something that sounds ever remotely like "retail buyers are more important than the kickstarter backers" is a good strategy

#2

Q: How many production samples of the miniatures have been acquired, and has a manufacturer been decided upon?
A: I still have the final few 3-D sculpts to get done, but the game is nearing the finish stages as far as components go, rules are continuing to be worked on. I am in talks with manufacturers now, but that must be complete before I will launch the KS. I want to have nearly everything finished before I go to KS. My best example of how a KS should be run is Cool-Mini-or-Not and they always have all their ducks in a row before they launch their KS. That is the example I want to follow.

First, given the other big complaint is the "We're 98% complete" line they spun on everyone I feel fairly confident if you use the words "98% complete" at any point in the campaign you can probably kiss you comments section goodbye.

Second, I don't know if you are aware but CMON just announced a delay on Massive Darkness and blamed it on the backers. The fact that CMON is always late, always has lame excuses for the lateness and is a running joke in the KS community for project lateness makes your choice of CMON as a company to emulate when your biggest hurdle will be distancing yourself from a campaign that is 3+ years late does not bode well for the success of the project.

#3

Q: Have potentially-friendly reviewers been identified and contacted about review copies of the game? Here I'm talking about game reviewers that have generally favorable views for this style of game, and thus might be best able to speak to its strengths, not necessarily reviewers that will provide solely positive reviews.
A: This honestly will be a challenge, not because I don't think its worth doing, but because so much of my available cash as gone into development. But I am hoping that the reviewers I have spoken to will give it a shot using paper stand-ins for the minis. This is one of the hurdles I still have to deal with, but I am sure I will figure something out.

Given palladiums reputation for censorship sticking to reviewers (and presumably beta testers) that you know will only provide a positive review can create a feedback loop / echo chamber in which all you ever get back is what you want to hear, not the truth, which ultimately leads to a lesser game and tie you into palladium's "culture" and make it that much more difficult to separate yourself from them.


#4 RTT / Distancing yourself from Palladium

A: I agree that it will be an obstacle. There will be a specific group of players that will NEVER back my KS because of it and there is nothing I can do to prevent that, but Rifts is an IP I love and I will still go through with the KS. Indeed I am using Kickstarter, because if it fails to reach its funding goal, no one is charged and no backer is out his money. If it does fund, then I am off to the races and get to make the game I have always wanted to play. The Savage Rifts KS has boosted my belief that I can have a successful KS even with the RTT baggage.

A: Yes being viewed as PALLADIUM or a shill for them is a problem, that is why I am trying to be open and honest about the project to everyone who wants to know about it before the KS begins. I am first posting here for an obvious reason (or at least I thought so), if I first started a Facebook page and put everything up there, none of you would have seen it. I am first posting here for exposure and so that everyone knows what is going on. Next weekend is when I planned on launching the Facebook page, that gives everyone 10 days to know what's up and to head over to the Facebook then. After that goes up I will not be posting here and will move the discussion over there. This was just a necessary painful first step.

A: Well there has only been on KS with minis and Palladium IP, the RTT, so at the moment it's one isolated case that was handled poorly and needs Palladium's attention. That being said lots of other companies have had bad first outings on KS, while the RTT is not strictly speaking MY baby, it is a great example of what NOT to do. Although I do believe Palladium with come through in the end (my opinion obviously). All that aside, I definitely intend to show that Rogue Heroes is creating this game, not Palladium. This post is just a first step. But I will not suddenly bad mouth them either just to gain supporters since I don't believe in BS like that and I think you guys don't either. I will however show you guys that I am Rogue Heroes, not Palladium.[/color]

The people who won't back your KS because of RTT aren't the problem. Its the ones who will use you to send a message to Palladium and actively work to destroy your kickstarter you need to worry about.

Now I've pointed out several things above and they all have one common theme, the answers you gave are all answers an RTT backer would expect from Palladium. Retail is more important than backers, the overconfidence "98% done ya'll", the "us vs. them" mentality of "we've got to make sure people who review/test the game are on our side and will give us a review we want to hear instead of the truth".

These have the potential to be huge issues for you because convincing people you are physically separate from the people who did RTT will be far easier than convincing people you think differently than the people who left the backers of RTT stranded and who give no indication of caring about the backers of RTT and that your project will be different will be much harder.

Especially when so much of what you say about your kickstarter sounds to me like you haven't learned anything at all from the mistakes made on the RTT kickstarter and are just repeating Palladiums thoughts and following there work culture that lead to some of those mistakes.


Things you should think about:

What do you tell kickstarter when your kickstarter gets reported by backers of RTT?
What to do with the RTT backers who go over the line on the comments section? What is "over the line"?
How do you handle shipping?
How do you handle refunds? (kickstarter requires refunds on failed projects, RTT is considered a failed project by many, yet no refunds. How will you be different?)
Are you willing to carry an independent auditor to audit the project every step of the way?
Will retail receive products before backers, i.e. will you sell at a convention before shipping to backers?
How many pieces will the mini's be? Refunds if that changes?
How late will the project be? (hey, your fault you picked CMON as a "role model") Refunds if your late?
Are you thick skinned enough to handle the abuse from RTT backers you might receive WITHOUT reacting? Once discussion devolves into argument, you lose.

How much experience do you have in miniature games, again if your resume consists of "I worked for palladium during RTT" and "RTT is the only mini game I've worked on" then your resume is "I worked for a company whose reputation is not be the best on a game they couldn't finish and whose track record with Kickstarter is nothing short of a disaster". - not a good sign.

[ffranceschi]

I will support this KS with everything I have...the author of SPLICERS deserves that and more...besides it's RIFTS. Don't worry Carmen, we will fund this project. Oh, and the Minis look awesome

[Carmen]

Hi everyone
I will give a response to Summersnow's post, I will copy and reply to it here.

I wish you the best of luck on your "not palladium" kickstarter.
Yes this is NOT Palladiums Kickstarter, if you want to assure yourself of that please come over to my Facebook page and see what we are up to.


I'd like to point out a few things you should avoid in the kickstarter if you wish it to succeed and offer some thoughts on things you should prepare for.

#1 From your Q&A post
Q: Is the intention of the KS to create a production run to make it into distribution, or solely to fulfill the KS pledges? Assuming the first, what will the break-even numbers for various print runs?
A: It is pointless to do KS just to fulfill the KS pledges alone. Without post-KS distribution, there is no point in doing a KS at all. A game needs to have a life after the KS is over.
Given that one of the complaints people have with RTT is that Palladium has shown zero interest in three + years in the kickstarter backers I'm not sure leading off with something that sounds ever remotely like "retail buyers are more important than the kickstarter backers" is a good strategy
First Summersnow I would say you are cherry-picking my previous replies a bit. As I detailed many times before, NO products will be supplied to retail before the KS backers are given their rewards. But if the game is to continue after the KS then retail copies must be produced. Without sounding condescending, do you know that the more copies of the game I purchase from the manufacturer at one time the cheaper those copies are to produce and thus the more bang for the manufacturing buck. Not all people realize this. So, of course I will produce retail copies at the same time as KS copies. But I will not send out retail copies to distributors before the backers get their rewards. This is NOT the same thing at all as "retail buyers are more important than the kickstarter backers" and to say so is to try and drum up strife for the project. If this is not your intention then I am sorry but it does "sound" like that is your intent.

#2
Q: How many production samples of the miniatures have been acquired, and has a manufacturer been decided upon?
A: I still have the final few 3-D sculpts to get done, but the game is nearing the finish stages as far as components go, rules are continuing to be worked on. I am in talks with manufacturers now, but that must be complete before I will launch the KS. I want to have nearly everything finished before I go to KS. My best example of how a KS should be run is Cool-Mini-or-Not and they always have all their ducks in a row before they launch their KS. That is the example I want to follow.
First, given the other big complaint is the "We're 98% complete" line they spun on everyone I feel fairly confident if you use the words "98% complete" at any point in the campaign you can probably kiss you comments section goodbye.
I have nothing to do with the RRT as I have said many, many times and I, me, Carmen Bellaire, NEVER once said I am "98% complete" YOU are the one using those words. When I was asked where I am at with the project I gave an accurate description of how far along me and my guys were at that time.

Second, I don't know if you are aware but CMON just announced a delay on Massive Darkness and blamed it on the backers. The fact that CMON is always late, always has lame excuses for the lateness and is a running joke in the KS community for project lateness makes your choice of CMON as a company to emulate when your biggest hurdle will be distancing yourself from a campaign that is 3+ years late does not bode well for the success of the project.
No I did not know of the woes of Massive Darkness and every CMON KS me or my friends have back have went incredibly well, they must be having some problems I have not heard about. I didn't back Massive Darkness as it sounded kind of dull to me, so I have not followed it. It is a shame if they blamed the backers for their delays, but I know nothing of it one way or the other. As far as distancing myself from RRT, its simple as I have said over and over I am not involved with it (other than as a backer like yourself), I have no say over it or control over it. But I do hope it gets resolved as I am a backer too.

#3
Q: Have potentially-friendly reviewers been identified and contacted about review copies of the game? Here I'm talking about game reviewers that have generally favorable views for this style of game, and thus might be best able to speak to its strengths, not necessarily reviewers that will provide solely positive reviews.
A: This honestly will be a challenge, not because I don't think its worth doing, but because so much of my available cash as gone into development. But I am hoping that the reviewers I have spoken to will give it a shot using paper stand-ins for the minis. This is one of the hurdles I still have to deal with, but I am sure I will figure something out.
Given palladiums reputation for censorship sticking to reviewers (and presumably beta testers) that you know will only provide a positive review can create a feedback loop / echo chamber in which all you ever get back is what you want to hear, not the truth, which ultimately leads to a lesser game and tie you into palladium's "culture" and make it that much more difficult to separate yourself from them.
Again you are equating Rogue Heroes with Palladium Books, I, Carmen Bellaire am NOT Palladium Books. When asked the situation with reviewers I gave a frank and straight forward answer, you sound like you would prefer me to lie. I am not going to do that. Getting enough FREE review copies made IS going to be a challenge for me. I am ONE guy with a couple of buddies helping me to build a brand new gaming company and I am the ONLY one funding it. I had to PAY for the Rifts IP and PAY for 3-D sculpts, art, tile designs, everything and I am tight on funds, so this IS a challenge.

#4 RTT / Distancing yourself from Palladium
A: I agree that it will be an obstacle. There will be a specific group of players that will NEVER back my KS because of it and there is nothing I can do to prevent that, but Rifts is an IP I love and I will still go through with the KS. Indeed I am using Kickstarter, because if it fails to reach its funding goal, no one is charged and no backer is out his money. If it does fund, then I am off to the races and get to make the game I have always wanted to play. The Savage Rifts KS has boosted my belief that I can have a successful KS even with the RTT baggage.

A: Yes being viewed as PALLADIUM or a shill for them is a problem, that is why I am trying to be open and honest about the project to everyone who wants to know about it before the KS begins. I am first posting here for an obvious reason (or at least I thought so), if I first started a Facebook page and put everything up there, none of you would have seen it. I am first posting here for exposure and so that everyone knows what is going on. Next weekend is when I planned on launching the Facebook page, that gives everyone 10 days to know what's up and to head over to the Facebook then. After that goes up I will not be posting here and will move the discussion over there. This was just a necessary painful first step.

A: Well there has only been one KS with minis and Palladium IP, the RTT, so at the moment it's one isolated case that was handled poorly and needs Palladium's attention. That being said lots of other companies have had bad first outings on KS, while the RTT is not strictly speaking MY baby, it is a great example of what NOT to do. Although I do believe Palladium with come through in the end (my opinion obviously). All that aside, I definitely intend to show that Rogue Heroes is creating this game, not Palladium. This post is just a first step. But I will not suddenly bad mouth them either just to gain supporters since I don't believe in BS like that and I think you guys don't either. I will however show you guys that I am Rogue Heroes, not Palladium.[/color]

The people who won't back your KS because of RTT aren't the problem. Its the ones who will use you to send a message to Palladium and actively work to destroy your kickstarter you need to worry about.
I agree with you on this completely, but its the fires I have to face to make this game. I wish it were different but its not, so I will face the fire and push on!

Now I've pointed out several things above and they all have one common theme, the answers you gave are all answers an RTT backer would expect from Palladium. Retail is more important than backers, the overconfidence "98% done ya'll", the "us vs. them" mentality of "we've got to make sure people who review/test the game are on our side and will give us a review we want to hear instead of the truth".
Retail is NOT more important than KS backers, as an avid KS backer (go check our Rogue Heroes on KS), I would never put retail before the KS backers. The overconfidence is certainly not mine, I am doing everything I can to succeed but this could go down if flames if I don't use due diligence, and boy I know it. You have point out many of Palladium's failings NOT Rogue Heroes. The fact that I am willing to reply and take this before the Kickstarter even launches should make that blantetly clear.

These have the potential to be huge issues for you because convincing people you are physically separate from the people who did RTT will be far easier than convincing people you think differently than the people who left the backers of RTT stranded and who give no indication of caring about the backers of RTT and that your project will be different will be much harder.
I agree with you, but all I can do at this point is be open and honest, and reply to your questions. If you still think I am no different from Palladium then I will never win you over, but I will try.

Especially when so much of what you say about your kickstarter sounds to me like you haven't learned anything at all from the mistakes made on the RTT kickstarter and are just repeating Palladiums thoughts and following there work culture that lead to some of those mistakes.
You are completely wrong here. I am not a part of Palladiums "work culture" hell I dont even live in the same country as them. I am Canadian!
Its too bad you feel that way. And appearently you have your mind made up but you are wrong, end of story.

Things you should think about:

What do you tell kickstarter when your kickstarter gets reported by backers of RTT? Rogue Heroes has no problem with someone "reporting" my KS as I have done nothing wrong.
What to do with the RTT backers who go over the line on the comments section? What is "over the line"? That is for Kickstarter itself to deal with, just like I asked for no posts to be deleted here, I will not be telling KS to ban people or delete posts but if they do that is their prerogative. As it is in Kickstarter's interests to keep the comments civil.
How do you handle shipping? As stated before I am looking at several shipping options and am leaning toward Ship Naked, although I have not yet made the final choice.
How do you handle refunds? (kickstarter requires refunds on failed projects, RTT is considered a failed project by many, yet no refunds. How will you be different?) When a project on Kickstarter fails to fund no one is charged, that is why I am using it over Indiegogo or other crowdfunding sites. So there is no problem there. And as far as the RRT I have no control over it so comparing the KS I will run or its success is misplaced.
Are you willing to carry an independent auditor to audit the project every step of the way? Rogue Heroes is a licensed corporation in Canada and as such I already am subject to my government's audits on every penny the KS will bring in and spend. No further auditor is required. Do you ask that of ALL Kickstarters or is that just to single mine out? Rhetorical question.
Will retail receive products before backers, i.e. will you sell at a convention before shipping to backers? NO and NO I am avid KS backer and I hate those practices!
How many pieces will the mini's be? Refunds if that changes? As stated on my Facebook page, they will be one-piece minis, pre-assembled at the factory, those are the only type of manufacturing quote I have been soliciting. I do not like assembling board game minis. So no need to change it.
How late will the project be? (hey, your fault you picked CMON as a "role model") Refunds if your late? You are just baiting me here. Like all KS it could be late. But I have take time to research average manufacturing and shipping times, taking into accound things like Chinese New Year which always mess things up. I am also planning on setting the delivery date long to give a "realistic" expectation of how long it will take to actually fulfill ALL KS rewards. And refunds would depend on how late and why, you know that is an impossible question to answer at this moment.
Are you thick skinned enough to handle the abuse from RTT backers you might receive WITHOUT reacting? Once discussion devolves into argument, you lose. I will deal with it.

How much experience do you have in miniature games, again if your resume consists of "I worked for palladium during RTT" and "RTT is the only mini game I've worked on" then your resume is "I worked for a company whose reputation is not be the best on a game they couldn't finish and whose track record with Kickstarter is nothing short of a disaster". - not a good sign. My "side job" is in the board gaming industry designing board games and assisting in miniatures projects. This is why I have not written for Palladium in many years, he does not pay enough and I make much more in board games. My head sculptor Ben Calvert-Lee has worked for Mantic, Bushido and many others miniature companies. So yes Rogue Heroes as plenty of experience. Just go over to the Facebook page and see what we are working on. Then you can see the quality we are producing. I have already put my money behind this, so I am quite sure of my abilities in this field. So it is a Good Sign.



I will also reply to n815e's short comment:
In reality, Carmen would need to assure backers that he will ensure that funding will go entirely to fulfilling rewards before any is applied to retail stock... And do it that way.
n815e, as I stated above ALL KS backers WILL get their rewards first! But all manufacturing will be done simultaneously so that I can get the cost benefits of mass production. This is the only way the backers can get the best price on their copies of the game. Otherwise, the KS backers would actually pay MORE than retail purchasers because the second run of the game does not have to pay the 3D printing fees, molding fees, and manufacturing set up fees. Once the molds are made they last for hundreds of runs, so there are no further fees associated with the molds. This is something many, many people who have never been through the manufacturing process do not realize. Indeed as sizable chunk of the cost for a first production run of any game/product is actually these additional fees. So the goal of a good KS is to produce approximately twice the number of games actually need so that these costs can be recouped through retail sales instead of all being put onto the shoulders of the KS backers. I know this because I have been through it before with other companies. That being said I still refuse to see retail get their products before the KS backers. Since I am NOT relying on the KS to make a living, I have a normal day job, and my sculptors and artists are being paid as I go, I will have no pressure on me to do otherwise.


Okay that covers the replys for now. So until I post again, please come over to the Facebook page and look around and have a good day.
https://www.facebook.com/RogueHeroesPublishing/
Carmen

[Morgan Vening]

Just a couple of suggestions...

I have nothing to do with the RRT as I have said many, many times
While you've admitted your role in some places, there are several times where you've said this, where it looks like you're trying to say you had nothing to do with the project, when you were a Designer and Background Writer, and I've heard your name mentioned as part of the after-campaign team (FAQ and other development). I accept that you're not still attached, nor do I think you are at all responsible for the delays with that project. But when saying stuff like the quoted line, you need to be careful to be not seen as misrepresenting the facts. You're much more involved and informed as to what happened, than most backers.

Retail is NOT more important than KS backers, as an avid KS backer (go check our Rogue Heroes on KS), I would never put retail before the KS backers.
I checked. The one you're commenting from on the Robotech Kickstarter, only lists a single project (Robotech, naturally). A search of Kickstarter for "Rogue Heroes" lists 4 projects, none of which seem to have anything to do with you or your company. Don't know if that's a glitch with Kickstarter, but it gives the appearance of the above statement being misleading.

And while I know and accept you're not Kevin, the last sentence I quoted of yours? Kevin made that assurance too. Several times. And it didn't pan out that way. Like the whole 98% thing (agreed, not your saying), you need to understand that when people see the same things being said, even just the adjacency to PB is going to cause people to be less than reassured. And it'll be hard to convince people otherwise

You are completely wrong here. I am not a part of Palladiums "work culture" hell I dont even live in the same country as them. I am Canadian!
As "ffranceschi" pointed out (and I didn't know, not having those books), you're the author of Splicers. Published in 2004. And a quick google search (BGG, RPG.Net, Amazon) indicates that the only easily findable works to your name are all Palladium products (RRT unlisted on those sites), starting back in 2003. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you haven't done other work, but it doesn't seem unreasonable for someone to come to the conclusion that someone who seems to have only worked on PB products over the last 13+ years, IS part of PB's work culture.

Edit: Clarification, "findable gaming related works".

Also, you might not live in the same country, but another quick google search using publicly available information (your listed Kickstarter Profile, and PB's address from the website) indicates you live about 25 miles (give or take) from PBHQ. I often travel further than that when I commute. So arguing some kind of exclusionary distance, doesn't look so good.

Look, I hope your project all works out, as you both appear to care deeply about it, and have put in a lot of work. But given the current toxicity around the other project, statements that are misleading, or even seem to be misleading, even if factual, don't help your case. Given the prior promises, assurances and declarations that PB have made and their failure to meet them, I think you need to be beyond reproach, if you want people to not be skeptical. You probably don't deserve it, but you've inherited an uphill battle. Good luck. I think you're going to need it. But I think perseverance can still win out.

[ScottBernard]

Now youre getting into fights with the RRT backers? And blaming ninja division too?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rr ... m/comments

Seriously?

This is how youre trying to convince people to back you?

[Panomas II]

I'm neutral with this comment but Carmens creds for board games are...

Link: http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/3415 ... tures-game

I don't agree at all with his comments over yonder.

Carmen as some have said, I'd advise you to stop. Saying that you could solve the RTT problem "If" people support the Rift Board Game is absolutely classless. No one there is going to see it any different (and why should they) And its not true. Plus you are likely to some degree flaming Kevin, who is your business partner with the IP.

[Nazdrek]

I met Carmen at Gencon 2016 and looked at the 3d renders of his miniatures. I also spoke with Kevin while I was there. Kevin did not have anything to do or say about the board game other than Carmen was the one developing it. I actually introduced Carmen to a person that owns some factories that produce miniatures.

What I am trying to point out is that everything I saw at Gencon regarding the Rifts board game came directly from Carmen and did not involve Kevin.

Kevin and I did speak in length about all things Robotech, specifically RTT.

[Panomas II]

Also mentioning your upcoming Kickstarter in the RTT comments could be viewed as promotion which likely violates KS tos.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Oh boy this is turning really ugly.

So much bad blood, even before launch is gonna doom this project.

[bielmic]

I agree with you on this completely, but its the fires I have to face to make this game. I wish it were different but its not, so I will face the fire and push on!

Fortunately for you, you are in the unique position of being both in business and friends with Kevin Siembieda and don't need to face the fire alone. Why not ask him to stop watching everything burn around him and instead actually get up to join the bucket brigade? That's what friends do. He has always had the power to be open and honest in his communication with RRT backers but has chosen since 2015 not to despite his pledge. A 2017 edition ReReStart of the Conversation with Backers that includes actual actual proof of work done since Adepticon 2016, a full breakdown of the current status of every remaining reward, and the realistic plans for the completion including a timetable would make for a great update for your previous project as well as help convince potential backers of your upcoming project that someone somewhere involved in both learned from their mistakes. Please note that yet another update with nothing but optimistic platitudes, vague hopes for the future, and a sales pitch for ancillary products won't help either your past or future project nor will yet another season of silence.

[bielmic]

Oh boy this is turning really ugly.

So much bad blood, even before launch is gonna doom this project.

Nah, there still mad love out there for classic rifts even if you look at what has been done. Robotech has problems and I don't think we can solve them. Despite that, the board game will fund quickly although the comment section will be acrimonious.

[Nazdrek]

Oh boy this is turning really ugly.

So much bad blood, even before launch is gonna doom this project.

Not really sure what you are referring to. I have not seen anything that would constitute ugly?

[MurderCityDisciple]

Oh boy this is turning really ugly.

So much bad blood, even before launch is gonna doom this project.

Not really sure what you are referring to. I have not seen anything that would constitute ugly?

Saw some of the comments on the Robotech RT forums...UGLY.
Carmen said adios to that forum it was so bad.

[Forar]

Ugly?

That's us having a pleasant conversation over Sunday brunch.

Man, if you think that's bad, you haven't seen us at our worst.

[rosco60559]

Still not as bad after one of the "updates" which of course don't show progress and beg us to buy things that aren't even in development.

[13eowulf]

Ugly?

That's us having a pleasant conversation over Sunday brunch.

Man, if you think that's bad, you haven't seen us at our worst.

Is that so?
So it is your position that the vitriol directed at Carmen was reasonable, and that the angry portion of RRT backers can and will be worse?
Further in your opinion this is humorous to you?

[Prince Artemis]

Ugly?

That's us having a pleasant conversation over Sunday brunch.

Man, if you think that's bad, you haven't seen us at our worst.

The fact that you're proud of that, based on your phrasing, says a lot about you.

[Jefffar]

I think that now is a good time for everyone to stop before hitting that post button.

Something we have seen repeatedly in this day and age, and had just graphically made real to us is that words can and do hurt.

Whatever rage you may have over the Robotech Kickstarter. Whatever you may think of the responses you've gotten from Kevin, from Carmen o from anyone else. You are responsible for what you say, nobody else.

When you decide to post here, on Facebook, in the Kickstarter forums or on other websites, it is your responsibility to express yourself in a respectful and civil manner.