What do you think keeps people from getting into Palladium?

[say652]

I get "i loved it High-school then they feLloyd off the Earth. "

[Shark_Force]

sadly i say probably not. RT is an old tired property that relies too much on the nostalgia of a 40+ year old aging fanbase by and large,

well that old tired property had a 1 million dollar kickstarter.

(not that it gained palladium any net good will i suspect, considering the massive delays in actually getting the kickstarter orders to the people who paid for them, but it does show that there is obviously a lot of interest in robotech regardless of how old it may be)

[jaymz]

Yeah yet academy couldn't fund. Funny that.

[Razzinold]

Razzinold can attest to the lengths i went thru to support and get palladium games played....

Now i just do support materials on my personal wiki as i have given up on it and i presently refuse to support palladium directly anymore for reasons i will not go into publicly on their iwn forums.

Yup, sure can.

I remember when he hung his first poster up in the local comic shop where he lives advertising which night he would be running a game/games.
We were all part of a big gaming group at one point as well and he would drive 45 minutes, to an hour, each way just to attend.
He also used to run (or maybe still does?) a website that he paid to host, not one of those crappy ad infested "free sites", where he would run all different kinds of real time chat games as well.

If I recall correctly I believe he even started a FB Palladium group before the actual company did, but that could just be gossip. I know there was some kind of blow up a few years ago where some people got their knickers in a twist over some group not being official or something like that, but I can't be more specific then that because I tend to stay out of that kind of drama/finger pointing stuff.

And all that is just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head, I believe he used to do podcasts as well, or I'm mixing him up with another former gaming group member lol

[Forar]

sadly i say probably not. RT is an old tired property that relies too much on the nostalgia of a 40+ year old aging fanbase by and large,

well that old tired property had a 1 million dollar kickstarter.

(not that it gained palladium any net good will i suspect, considering the massive delays in actually getting the kickstarter orders to the people who paid for them, but it does show that there is obviously a lot of interest in robotech regardless of how old it may be)

Sure.

Almost 4 years ago.

Going back to that 40+ year old fanbase and the uncertainty of being able to complete that project in half a decade or more, actuarial tables are not on their side.

Interest exists, but for it to be useful it has be translated into sales opportunities.

And how well do you think another such campaign would go?

Think wave 2 hitting shelves would make more than a ripple, 3 years (or more) after initial release?

They're on their second alleged 'relaunch/restart of the conversation' however they wish to look at it, and like 41 months after funding we still have no idea when (or if) they'll deliver.

Sorry to be all negative on the project, I know the mods are sensitive to that around here, but the topic is literally "why aren't more people into PB" and I think "annoyed (to put it mildly) over Five Thousand fans and customers and potential future customers probably didn't help their case any" is a fair assessment of that situation.

[Shark_Force]

sadly i say probably not. RT is an old tired property that relies too much on the nostalgia of a 40+ year old aging fanbase by and large,

well that old tired property had a 1 million dollar kickstarter.

(not that it gained palladium any net good will i suspect, considering the massive delays in actually getting the kickstarter orders to the people who paid for them, but it does show that there is obviously a lot of interest in robotech regardless of how old it may be)

Sure.

Almost 4 years ago.

Going back to that 40+ year old fanbase and the uncertainty of being able to complete that project in half a decade or more, actuarial tables are not on their side.

Interest exists, but for it to be useful it has be translated into sales opportunities.

And how well do you think another such campaign would go?

Think wave 2 hitting shelves would make more than a ripple, 3 years (or more) after initial release?

They're on their second alleged 'relaunch/restart of the conversation' however they wish to look at it, and like 41 months after funding we still have no idea when (or if) they'll deliver.

Sorry to be all negative on the project, I know the mods are sensitive to that around here, but the topic is literally "why aren't more people into PB" and I think "annoyed (to put it mildly) over Five Thousand fans and customers and potential future customers probably didn't help their case any" is a fair assessment of that situation.

*shrug* i don't think the interest in robotech has disappeared. now, interest in paying palladium for any robotech product that they can't put in their hands immediately? probably much lower. heck, interest in robotech from palladium in general, whether they have a product they can give you right now or not, is probably lower. but i would be surprised if there is no interest in robotech.

(and on a side note, i can't blame you for feeling negative... by all accounts, it was a fairly negative experience. you paid money in exchange for a promised product in a promised time frame, and you haven't received what you were promised. if you were happy about that, i would consider that to be weird).

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto Kaiba, good evening! I'm sorry it took me a couple of days to post back in here; we had a very sudden and severe illness in the family here IRL a few days ago, and soon after a loss thus in the last twenty-four hours.

Ah, my commiserations, brother... and my apologies in return for being so thoroughly delayed in getting back to you as well. Life decided to go full "five thousand alarm fire at alarm factory".

Palladium's printed work seems to have settled in typeface and overall style since about 1990 or so, when Rifts was first out and most of pre-Macross II/Tactics Robotech by Palladium Books was out and on the shelves in the early 1990s. That was when I got into Rifts and Palladium Fantasy (1989, to be fair) and in many ways Palladium's strong reliance on their printing style- seeing very few changes prior to Heroes Unlimited 2nd Ed- I found to be very comforting.

That... consistency... is all well and good if you've had a few decades to get used to how Palladium does things and will buy their products regardless. I realize, with some amusement, that I am actually one of the younger gamers in the community here, having not even been born yet when Robotech was on the air. I was initially introduced to Palladium's Robotech and Macross II game lines back in the late 90's, the third and fourth RPGs that I was introduced do (behind D&D 3rd Edition and the old Star Wars RPG) and even then Palladium's publishing layout struck me as distinctly rough and unprofessional looking. I stuck with it because I really love Macross, but the unbroken two-column format with minimal indentation and spacing made actually using the books a bear at times because there wasn't really anything to make game stats stand out from fluff or from each other. The consistency problems and minimal indexing didn't help, but the lack of visual punch makes them a tough sell to people that are not already Palladium fans. A pretty cover goes a ways towards making a sale, but a RPG isn't a novel... it's more a reference book, and the plain printjob and formatting are not conducive to reference use.

My local stores have all but stopped ordering Palladium products becuase they don't sell. Like several others here, they pretty much special order the books for me and me alone, and otherwise the books sit out on the shelves and gather dust for years if they're sold at all. I've noticed my favorite store gradually pushed them to lower shelves to make way for books with more visual punch and higher print quality - books that are more eye-catching, which as a result tend to provoke more impulse purchases. If Palladium wants to grow its audience, its products need to have more visual appeal to grab people's attention.

There's that old saying "We eat first with our eyes", and that's kind of true for games as well... it's no actual guarantee of quality, but people will be more likely to check out a book that has an eye-catching presentation and looks like it's high quality work. These days, that means glossy paper, hardback, color printing, etc.

sadly i say probably not. RT is an old tired property that relies too much on the nostalgia of a 40+ year old aging fanbase by and large,

well that old tired property had a 1 million dollar kickstarter.

(not that it gained palladium any net good will i suspect, considering the massive delays in actually getting the kickstarter orders to the people who paid for them, but it does show that there is obviously a lot of interest in robotech regardless of how old it may be)

Let's be fair... that tired old property hasn't managed to produce a successful original project in over three decades and counting. The Shadow Chronicles "movie" was the closest they've come to actual success, and that's just another orphaned first episode (this time of a canceled 4-part OVA). The only reason it's still around at all is that it really is treated more like a hobby than a business by its owners. Even then, they're apparently no longer willing to finance further development.

Yeah, the Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter was funded with over $1.4 million... but that figure is misleading, given that tabletop gaming in general is a hobby with an exceedingly high cost of entry, so the total was reached not by a particularly large number of backers on the Kickstarter but because over 86% of the backers were in for more than $140 apiece just to get a decent assortment of models. For tabletop games on Kickstarter, its actual backer total was only fair to middling (62nd percentile among Kickstarter-backed tabletop games) with the most successful of them having over 40 times the number of backers RRT did. (Its backer totals were bouyed somewhat by having a periphery demographic who got it because it was technically Macross and people who got it to use the minis as BattleTech's Unseen instead.)

[Boethermsbrukan]

Seto Kaiba, good evening; and thank you for your own patience in awaiting my reply!

Ah, my commiserations, brother... and my apologies in return for being so thoroughly delayed in getting back to you as well. Life decided to go full "five thousand alarm fire at alarm factory".

Quoting Jacob Ornstine the Hunter from 'The Witcher: House Of Glass': "Excellent wine (well, Dr. Pepper), and honest sorrow, both appreciated." Most of my immediate family will be attending the funeral for my brother's wife in her hometown, roughly in the area of Kingston. I asked my brother if he would prefer me to attend or not; I still haven't processed the whole event (death and shock, I mean), and he's fine if I do what grieving I do at a distance.

That... consistency... is all well and good if you've had a few decades to get used to how Palladium does things and will buy their products regardless. I realize, with some amusement, that I am actually one of the younger gamers in the community here, having not even been born yet when Robotech was on the air. I was initially introduced to Palladium's Robotech and Macross II game lines back in the late 90's, the third and fourth RPGs that I was introduced do (behind D&D 3rd Edition and the old Star Wars RPG) and even then Palladium's publishing layout struck me as distinctly rough and unprofessional looking. I stuck with it because I really love Macross, but the unbroken two-column format with minimal indentation and spacing made actually using the books a bear at times because there wasn't really anything to make game stats stand out from fluff or from each other. The consistency problems and minimal indexing didn't help, but the lack of visual punch makes them a tough sell to people that are not already Palladium fans. A pretty cover goes a ways towards making a sale, but a RPG isn't a novel... it's more a reference book, and the plain printjob and formatting are not conducive to reference use.

I find your saying so- as in, a RPG supplement being a supplement and not simply a spine on a shelf- to be quite reasonable. I can tell you that when I was first exposed to gaming, it was more the gaming material being good reading and inspiration for my imagination. That Palladium Fantasy, Rifts and Palladium Books in general were some of the first games (and quite definitely the first gaming company) I was exposed to by the only real friend I had in junior high (and progressing thus all the way through high school; and we've kept in touch since then) probably carried with it a lot of associated positivity and comforting thoughts, assuming I otherwise might have become dissatisfied with the printing style and product presentation over the years. I agree entirely that a gaming book or corebook is not a novel; however, that was the void they filled in and purpose they served for me in my obtaining and- to be fair- reading them. I have never had anything approaching a longtime gaming group (certainly not one that stayed together for long in the rare instances I was a part of them) so I suspect my methods of 'play' were and are closer to being uncommon than not.

Were I then and had I more recently been a regular active Palladium player, my view would very likely be more akin to yours.

My local stores have all but stopped ordering Palladium products becuase they don't sell. Like several others here, they pretty much special order the books for me and me alone, and otherwise the books sit out on the shelves and gather dust for years if they're sold at all. I've noticed my favorite store gradually pushed them to lower shelves to make way for books with more visual punch and higher print quality - books that are more eye-catching, which as a result tend to provoke more impulse purchases. If Palladium wants to grow its audience, its products need to have more visual appeal to grab people's attention.

Complete agreement there. I have to keep in mind both how my interest in Palladium's games and the environment that surrounded them for me 27 years ago, when I was introduced to them, might be a more difficult sell with said maintenance of Palladium's book presentation, and what it's competing with on store shelves if we assume Palladium product shares that space with Pathfinder or D&D, or CCGs, with the last of those not even at gestation when first I got into gaming.

There's that old saying "We eat first with our eyes", and that's kind of true for games as well... it's no actual guarantee of quality, but people will be more likely to check out a book that has an eye-catching presentation and looks like it's high quality work. These days, that means glossy paper, hardback, color printing, etc.

I can understand that a potential player picking up a Palladium RPG with more often than not exceptional cover art on the front, but seeing a black-and-white interior with closer inspection (and if assessing said publications from memory of the course of years, perhaps), would be much easier to turn off buying the book compared to the vast bulk of modern production standards (if I may) existing now. Even if it's just my own tastes, though: while I have no objection to hardback books, I still in general prefer the perfect-bound softcover publishing Palladium has for the most part stuck to (again, perhaps an unnecessary anachronism I happen to like more than most people).

I still think a lot of what you see of Palladium (or any specific gaming company that might not be occupying a lot of shelf space) depends on what kind of local RPG community exists in a given city or town. Given the size of the city I live in IRL (Toronto) it just bowls me over when I think of the number of stores here that have either shut down entirely or pulled up stakes (and virtually all of the stores that got in a lot of Palladium product when they were in operation here are no longer in business) or shifted their product support away from book-and-paper for the most part in the last twenty years. I don't think we by any means have a 'gaming desert' here as much as the demographic has changed or shifted gears itself locally, certainly with the last generation or two of gamers here in town. Equally so, I don't think I was ever really in touch with the 'generation' of gaming in whose era I was introduced to the first games I bought; the bulk of games I bought and how I used them were 'solo roleplaying', with 'roleplaying' stated loosely; more like play-acting than anything involving the rolling of polyhedrals or a card table surrounded by players, soft drinks and munchies. (Man, I still dig Randy McCall's introduction to Beyond The Supernatural 1st Edition.)

-Boe.

[Seto Kaiba]

I find your saying so- as in, a RPG supplement being a supplement and not simply a spine on a shelf- to be quite reasonable. [...] I agree entirely that a gaming book or corebook is not a novel; however, that was the void they filled in and purpose they served for me in my obtaining and- to be fair- reading them. I have never had anything approaching a longtime gaming group (certainly not one that stayed together for long in the rare instances I was a part of them) so I suspect my methods of 'play' were and are closer to being uncommon than not.

Were I then and had I more recently been a regular active Palladium player, my view would very likely be more akin to yours.

Presentation is, I would argue, even more important when Palladium Books is publishing games based on licensed intellectual property... particularly when that licensed material is originally from a visual medium like a comic book (e.g. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles) or an animated television series (e.g. Robotech).

When you're looking to market licensed merchandise to fans, the fans and the IP holders (be they owners or simply licensees themselves) are going to have a certain baseline expectation of quality based on the source material and the quality of what other licensees are producing. The IP holder wants the licensee to make them look good with a high-quality, professional-looking product, where the fan wants something that is both authentically accurate to the source material and up to the quality standards of the other merchandise. For a long time, Palladium had a bit of a saving throw in their handling of their one "big" license because publication styles were different back then and the Robotech "brand" was a dead property with an "owner" that was exercising no quality control or oversight over licensee merchandise and there was no competition for the license. In the aftermath of regaining the license and expanding it into tabletop gaming, we've seen Palladium's approach to project management noticeably hurt the Robotech brand and directly contribute to the failure of a proposed sequel.

It's especially important that Palladium present a well-organized, modern, and professional-looking book where the Robotech brand is concerned because they're not just the only licensee actually releasing something on a semi-regular basis... most fans are purchasing the books to use as unofficial reference material rather than to actually play the game. This is a well-known prediliction of Robotech fans, so I'm a little baffled that Palladium wouldn't attempt to actively cash in on it... especially as it's a heaven-sent way to pad page count.

Complete agreement there. I have to keep in mind both how my interest in Palladium's games and the environment that surrounded them for me 27 years ago, when I was introduced to them, might be a more difficult sell with said maintenance of Palladium's book presentation, and what it's competing with on store shelves if we assume Palladium product shares that space with Pathfinder or D&D, or CCGs, with the last of those not even at gestation when first I got into gaming.

There's a certain painful irony in that the Palladium product with far and away the best, most modern presentation is the one that's left as a half-complete Kickstarter dogged by pissed-off backers. If they produced all of their books to the same standard they used for Robotech RPG Tactics's packaging and rulebook, they'd almost certainly see much better sales.

A revamp of the game system itself wouldn't be going the wrong way either, but simply tarting up the presentation would go a looooooong way.

I still think a lot of what you see of Palladium (or any specific gaming company that might not be occupying a lot of shelf space) depends on what kind of local RPG community exists in a given city or town. Given the size of the city I live in IRL (Toronto) it just bowls me over when I think of the number of stores here that have either shut down entirely or pulled up stakes (and virtually all of the stores that got in a lot of Palladium product when they were in operation here are no longer in business) or shifted their product support away from book-and-paper for the most part in the last twenty years. I don't think we by any means have a 'gaming desert' here as much as the demographic has changed or shifted gears itself locally, certainly with the last generation or two of gamers here in town. Equally so, I don't think I was ever really in touch with the 'generation' of gaming in whose era I was introduced to the first games I bought; the bulk of games I bought and how I used them were 'solo roleplaying', with 'roleplaying' stated loosely; more like play-acting than anything involving the rolling of polyhedrals or a card table surrounded by players, soft drinks and munchies. (Man, I still dig Randy McCall's introduction to Beyond The Supernatural 1st Edition.)

I'm sure location is a factor, but this marginalization of Palladium's products seems to be a nationwide problem if the posts I've seen about it in here and in the past are any indicator. Unlike other publishers, Palladium doesn't seem to be making an effort to keep pace with an evolving industry. They're inexplicably averse to color printing, variation in page layout, and seemingly EXTREMELY averse to digital distribution. That last one is certainly hurting Palladium's bottom line, as there are people who want eBooks or PDFs, and are illegally downloading the books in addition to, or instead of, buying them in stores. There's a certain amount of piracy that's unavoidable as the result of ne'er do wells, but they're actively neglecting a profit center... a very easily exploited profit center.

[Razzinold]

Funny, and quick, story to add that I believe is relevant to the topic at hand.

I found out about his cool local place on Saturday that is a cafe/board game place and apparently Wednesday night is RPG night. I asked the guy who goes every Wednesday what they play and I received the answer of "Shadow Run, Iron Kings, 5th Edition, Pathfinder" and like one or two others.
I asked if anyone played any P.B game lines and he said no. Now I'm not sure if he nodded his head when I mentioned Rifts because he knew what it was, or just to be polite.

So this just shows how groups of gaming geeks, like us, get together every Wednesday and NOBODY plays any P.B., even though he told me that if I came with a group and got a table I could GM my own game and every GM gets a $10 GM voucher towards food and drink.

So they literally can't even pay people to run a PB game, lol

[jaymz]

Ah yes brew wizards......great place. Played in an xwing tournament there just this passed Sunday.

[Spinachcat]

Razzinold can attest to the lengths i went thru to support and get palladium games played....

It's true. Jaymz has made tremendous effort to promote PB over the years.

Others too. Sadly, many of those aren't on these forums anymore.

[jaymz]

Or stopped doing it in general.

[Razzinold]

Ah yes brew wizards......great place. Played in an xwing tournament there just this passed Sunday.

That just shows how out of touch I am, you don't even live in the same city of me and you know the place and I just found out about it on Saturday, lol

[jaymz]

Remember who you are talking about Razz

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] So this just shows how groups of gaming geeks, like us, get together every Wednesday and NOBODY plays any P.B., even though he told me that if I came with a group and got a table I could GM my own game and every GM gets a $10 GM voucher towards food and drink.

So they literally can't even pay people to run a PB game, lol

Man, that is SO unfair... I can't even get my local game store to host a RPG night at all, everything's booked solid by the Magic: the Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokemon, Warhammer 40k, and X-Wing players.

Even if they did give us a night, I doubt we'd have much luck getting anyone to play a Palladium game. They keep their Palladium products on the bottom shelves of a little side alcove thing that could only put them further out of the average customer's way if it were in the basement and behind a sign marked "Beware of the leopard".

Razzinold can attest to the lengths i went thru to support and get palladium games played....

It's true. Jaymz has made tremendous effort to promote PB over the years.

Others too. Sadly, many of those aren't on these forums anymore.

Recent events firmly in mind, an excellent case could be made for claiming that the biggest factor keeping gamers from getting into Palladium's games is that Palladium itself is no ambassador.

Part of that is certainly Palladium's relative technophobia... which is odd for a company that so often writes science fiction games. They keep their own official forums at arm's length except when they're posting a short news update or plug for a new product, and they're surprisingly reluctant to leverage social media or exploit digital distribution to get their products out to a wider audience. They do the occasional convention, but that's a fairly old-fashioned and (in modern days) ineffective way to spread the word. They don't seem to advertise in any of the hobby press, being dependent almost exclusively on word of mouth through their existing customer base.

The "word of mouth" approach would be OK if only Palladium wasn't so good at infuriating its customers and even some of its freelancers... who are usually much more adept at the whole social media thing. So, of course, there's little to nothing Palladium can do to control the damage when negotiations break down and furious customers go vent their frustrations far and wide on the net. Not being terribly good at the whole public relations thing, on a rare occasion when they DO attempt damage control they usually just make things worse for themselves as they did in recent days.

Bringing it back to the situation at my local stores, I know most of them opted not to bother stocking anything for Robotech RPG Tactics because they saw the huge, swirling cloud of discontent surrounding the Kickstarter and nope'd right the heck out of it.

[jaymz]

Funny thing is seto...the place razz refers to isn't even a "store" it's a board game cafe. Lol

[Razzinold]

[...] So this just shows how groups of gaming geeks, like us, get together every Wednesday and NOBODY plays any P.B., even though he told me that if I came with a group and got a table I could GM my own game and every GM gets a $10 GM voucher towards food and drink.

So they literally can't even pay people to run a PB game, lol

Man, that is SO unfair... I can't even get my local game store to host a RPG night at all, everything's booked solid by the Magic: the Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokemon, Warhammer 40k, and X-Wing players.

Even if they did give us a night, I doubt we'd have much luck getting anyone to play a Palladium game. They keep their Palladium products on the bottom shelves of a little side alcove thing that could only put them further out of the average customer's way if it were in the basement and behind a sign marked "Beware of the leopard".

Yeah I was thinking of checking the place out next Wednesday with the wife, maybe drop in on a Shadow Run or Pathfinder Game, always wanted to try both of those game lines. I may try and get a table and start a PB game in the near future but we already have so much going on Wednesday nights it may not be feasible as an ongoing venture.

[Razzinold]

Funny thing is seto...the place razz refers to isn't even a "store" it's a board game cafe. Lol

It's funny, it was a business concept Mrs. Razz and I debated about starting up years ago. As you can plainly see we never did or that would be my own cafe we were talking about

[MurderCityDisciple]

Palladium needs to streamline, update and tweak it's system. Put all the rules in one big book would be wonderful. Have it PLAYTESTED....

On paper it's pretty simple, but it's antiquated, clunky and the rules are spread out all over the place.

The lack of electronic character generating tools and modern do-dads also makes the Megaversal system a loser compared to modern or updated systems.

Here's what I'd love to see:

-Every OCC/RCC should have a unique skill which no other class has. Which would make roles for the character clearly defined. I've been in games where Min/Max experts had characters who could do everything better than everyone else. Not fun. Everyone should have a role.

-The combat abilities/skills should also be tied to the OCC/RCC. Listed in the description.

-Everything you need to run a OCC/RCC all on one page. Easy to print out. Have slots or checkboxes to customize your characters. Palladium Character Generation Takes way too long.

-Tighten up the SKILLS system. I don't mind the percentage system, but I've seen D20 based systems that work fine as well. Too many skills. And I never liked the Weightlifting, Running, Boxing, etc. tacked onto most characters

[Ulairi]

I do think the game lines need a revision. The last revision of Rifts was more than 10 years ago. I do think the books need to be better organized. Picking up RUE as a new gamer would be hard to crack, even character creation is hidden. I think the Megaversal system itself is really good and doesn't need to be fundamentally changed. Just cleaned up and have better presentation.

When it comes to the physical books themselves I completely disagree with the posters wanting higher production values. The OSR is a large movement of games and they use similar layouts and artwork. Going to full color pages, higher production value, full color art will significantly increase the cost of the books without making them easier to sell.

When you look at the hobby and remove D&D, these game lines don't sell very much and that includes everybody. D&D is the hobby for most game stores. I saw posters talking about their FLGS not carrying Palladium's products and that is more RPG specific. Most of the sales volume for gaming stores comes from board games and 3 CCGs (Magic, Pokémon, and Yuigioh). Some stores may have pockets of successes based on their individual market but industry wide those are the drivers of revenue. With the advent of digital storefronts like RPGNow and Kickstarter, RPGs have really left the hobby store and moved more to a direct sales method.

Palladium does support OBS and they need to get their catalog fully on the platform. I'd also like it if I buy a physical book from Palladium I can receive the eBook for a couple dollars more.

Palladium Fantasy is more than 30 years old. Rifts is almost 30 years old. The other game lines are old too. It is a blessing that the game lines are still supported and it's also a curse that Palladium hasn't "reset" their games the way other publishers have.

I think a big issue with Palladium's games is that the jumping in point is less clear for new gamers because these lines have so many books that it can become overwhelming. A revision to Palladium Fantasy and Rifts (and really all the game lines) would do a lot in making it easier for gamers to jump back in.

Another issue is the sporadic release schedule. Books are announced and then when they are actually going to be able to be purchased is a fools guess. I wish Palladium would wait until these books were in the can and going to the printers before announcing them. I like how upfront they are and how Kevin gets excited and wants to share this excitement with us, but it makes being a consumer harder.

But the biggest obstacle to getting people into Palladium? Getting a table to play at. Gamers want to game. The system and rules are less important than finding folks to game with. There are a lot of people out there that would love to play Palladium's games! We just need to do a better job about being more open to them and inviting them! Game at your FLGS. Run games at local conventions! Post on the FB and Reddit pages! Publish reviews on sites like the big purple and theRPGsite. Record and publish videos on YouTube! Let people know why you're excited and have fun playing these games. If people see activity they want to join in.

[Spinachcat]

If you have the opportunity to run your favorite PB game in a public venue (FLGS, convention, cafe, etc), it worth the effort and I believe you will get some players. Here's my suggestions:

1) Simplified pregen characters. Cut down the skill lists and the spell lists. You get 1 page back and front in 12 point font AT MOST for the character. Nobody wants to spend 15 minutes reading their character before playing.

2) Post / Show PB game art to promote your event. PB art catches eyeballs.

3) Run a streamlined version - don't worry about all the rules, just the basic stuff. Combat must run fast and furious, not some boring slogfest that takes hours.

4) Focus on the fun of the settings, not the minutiae and not the rules.

[Seto Kaiba]

Funny thing is seto...the place razz refers to isn't even a "store" it's a board game cafe. Lol

Well, at least it's a place... and they seem to welcome it.

Like I alluded to before, Palladium Books' game lines are basically nonentities here in the company's own backyard... and, admittedly, I don't think I've ever seen anyone local attempt to run a Palladium game RAW. You know how much I've engaged in rewriting to try to make Palladium's licensed games more accurate to the original works, and there is certainly a lot of room for improvement in the flow of the system.

(I believe what I'm on right now is technically ground-up rewrite #3 of the Macross II game, and it bears little to no resemblance to the original game I started with.)

Palladium needs to streamline, update and tweak it's system. Put all the rules in one big book would be wonderful. Have it PLAYTESTED....

On paper it's pretty simple, but it's antiquated, clunky and the rules are spread out all over the place.

It'd also be lovely if someone actually tried to proofread these books before they go to print. It's not as bad as it was back in the 90's, but there are still a fair number of cases where the fluff and crunch aren't singing from anything like the same psalter. There's also plenty of cases where the fluff and/or crunch has two or more statements which are mutually contradictory on adjoining pages... or sometimes the SAME page. It's also periodically annoying in games for licensed properties (e.g. Robotech, Macross II) when the series giveth and the RPG taketh away... such having a ship that is shown executing a fold jump identified in stats as having no fold system.

Even the art isn't exempt from the consistency problems... they've been using the wrong cockpit art for the VF-1 for how many decades now? Or how the picture for the VF-2JA page shows a VF-2SS cockpit, and the VF-2SS's entry shows the cockpit for the VC-079. Or that one mecha in the Masters Saga game that had art for the wrong mecha attached to its entry...

... sorry, I'll get off that soapbox now.

[Warshield73]

Palladium needs to streamline, update and tweak it's system. Put all the rules in one big book would be wonderful. Have it PLAYTESTED....

On paper it's pretty simple, but it's antiquated, clunky and the rules are spread out all over the place.

The lack of electronic character generating tools and modern do-dads also makes the Megaversal system a loser compared to modern or updated systems.

Here's what I'd love to see:

-Every OCC/RCC should have a unique skill which no other class has. Which would make roles for the character clearly defined. I've been in games where Min/Max experts had characters who could do everything better than everyone else. Not fun. Everyone should have a role.

-The combat abilities/skills should also be tied to the OCC/RCC. Listed in the description.

-Everything you need to run a OCC/RCC all on one page. Easy to print out. Have slots or checkboxes to customize your characters. Palladium Character Generation Takes way too long.

-Tighten up the SKILLS system. I don't mind the percentage system, but I've seen D20 based systems that work fine as well. Too many skills. And I never liked the Weightlifting, Running, Boxing, etc. tacked onto most characters

MCD, I agree with a lot of what you have to say here. Palladium really needs to do some of these updates, especially a core megaversal rule book and electronic character generation. I don't think they have the resources to do this themselves but I hope they are open to anyone who tries it on there own.

Your best point was about every OCC/RCC should have a unique skill which no other class has. I think this is important for all the games not just Rifts. I have been creating new batches of ccharacters for Phase World and I look at some of the OCC's like runner and galactic tracer and there is nothing to them. No hook to get a player interested at all. They need skill/power combinations that make playing them unique. Heroes unlimited has a similar problem with the special training characters. When I run Heroes at cons players always find these characters boring and I have had to rig the other characters just to give them things to do.

The only thing I disagree with is:

-Everything you need to run a OCC/RCC all on one page.

-Tighten up the SKILLS system.

I am not saying this wouldn't help get more people into PB, but I like the diversity of characters and limitations on characters that PB has because of the skill system.

[Razzinold]

If you have the opportunity to run your favorite PB game in a public venue (FLGS, convention, cafe, etc), it worth the effort and I believe you will get some players. Here's my suggestions:

1) Simplified pregen characters. Cut down the skill lists and the spell lists. You get 1 page back and front in 12 point font AT MOST for the character. Nobody wants to spend 15 minutes reading their character before playing.

2) Post / Show PB game art to promote your event. PB art catches eyeballs.

3) Run a streamlined version - don't worry about all the rules, just the basic stuff. Combat must run fast and furious, not some boring slogfest that takes hours.

4) Focus on the fun of the settings, not the minutiae and not the rules.

They invited me to run one of their "drop in" tables on Wednesday nights. They said that they have regulars that come in all the time, but also have people looking to try something new (of for the first time) so they said I should get some players.

I told them I would consider it, I don't get off work until 6:30 or so and by the time I got there it would probably be like 7:30 - 8:00 and that is like their peak time so it may be hard to get a spot, or everything else will be in full swing. That being said I will more than likely give it a try at least once.

[wizardofthenorth]

One of their problems may be that all they ever release are settings books.

When the trend the last decade or so has been adventure paths...at least by the big players. And even before that it was adventure modules.

They need to actually release story content for their settings. Not updated setting books every few years.

[Killer Cyborg]

One of their problems may be that all they ever release are settings books.

When the trend the last decade or so has been adventure paths...at least by the big players. And even before that it was adventure modules.

They need to actually release story content for their settings. Not updated setting books every few years.

Palladium maintains that adventure books and modules don't sell nearly as well as setting books.

[Whiskeyjack]

I just had a long talk with one of my LGS owners the other day. Up here anyway it is an industry wide trend. D&D is the only RPG that really sells, with the exception of Star Wars, and he's pretty sure most people buying that aren't playing the game, they're buying for the info and pictures.
They stopped bringing in Rifters last year when the last few die hards stopped buying them. Getting Palladium has become hard as well since the distributors are no longer carrying their products.

[wizardofthenorth]

On an individual book comparison...I would agree...modules probably dont sell as much in quantity as main books. But they arent supposed to. They are supposed to be lower production cost content you churn out to always have something new on the shelves beside your evergreen manuals and settings books. And being they at best produce one or two setting books per year lately (if even that)...there just is not much to keep people buying IMO.

[Forar]

It has been a decade or more since I bought my last Rifter, but I recall them having adventure hook ideas included pretty commonly early on. Is that something they're not really doing anymore?

Also, I wonder how the ongoing drive for Rifter subscriptions might be putting a dent in Retail availability. If a substantial portion of the userbase are buying direct from Palladium, why bother stocking them at the shop? Further compounded by the ~1/3 of the year when one could probably catch up pretty swiftly with the Grab Bags if one were so inclined, between the entire quarter they're on sale for in the winter, and 'Christmas in July' half a year later.

Between those practices, plus other spot sales, plus the infrequency with which they keep releasing new material, it seems like a somewhat self-inflicted issue, or at least one further complicated or enhanced.

People can't buy the material at a lot of their LGS, so they buy online, further reducing shops' interest in holding material that fewer people are buying, etc.

[jaymz]

Adventure hooks...yes, full adventure modules...not so much.

[Forar]

Ah.

When my group moved from Rifts to D&D 3E in 2004 or so, I have to admit that having premade adventure modules was a part of it. Between that and the balance in the system (not perfect of course, but it was a far cry better than Rifts, not that this was a high bar to clear) it made the GM's job a lot easier, which was always the point of contention. We'd have up to 8-10'ish people wanting to play, but only a few of us were willing to undertake the job of running the games. D&D and the adventure modules made it so much easier we actually had two groups running simultaneously for a while, rather than try to keep that many people in a single group. Something we could have done with Rifts, but again, getting A person to run a game could be enough of a challenge, let alone 2 simultaneously.

I haven't run a table top RPG in quite some time now, but if I were to do so again (and the temptation has been rising for a while now), ease of running it and having as much of the heavy lifting done in advance would be appealing. I'm quite capable of making my own setting or adapting one, but that doesn't mean I want to, especially with so many creative people already releasing that kind of content for a reasonable price for a variety of systems.

[jaymz]

Exactly. Pregen chars, adventures etc...make our lives easier thus let us play more than plan.

[Panomas II]

Yeah,

In high school, I almost played (98% of the time in the GMs chair) Palladium Books exclusively. But that was high school. I was a nerd with plenty of free time to create adventures.

While Palladium certainly has created some interesting settings, they haven't bridged the gap (or made any effort to) between the GM and those settings with good scenarios/adventure modules. When you become an adult with a family/full time job, time is just a resource that many of us don't have, or at least don't have enough of... Playing a system with premade modules helps bridge this gap and get me to the table. GMs are a resource to any RPG company. Why not support them? with products that are essentially plug and play.

Off topic, but I recently played my first session of Savage Rifts via fantasy grounds. I had a lot of fun with it.

[Jimbo]

Has anybody ever thought that WE the players may be part of the problem? It seems that the attitudes of some of the people who post on other boards can be taken as rabid fanboyism. That which we consider to be a staunch defense of a favored game/system can be perceived differently by others. I have read some other boards and that seems to be a portion of it. So perhaps while we wait for the revision that many seem to want, we should look at ourselves and try to revise our end of things.

[Razzinold]

Has anybody ever thought that WE the players may be part of the problem? It seems that the attitudes of some of the people who post on other boards can be taken as rabid fanboyism. That which we consider to be a staunch defense of a favored game/system can be perceived differently by others. I have read some other boards and that seems to be a portion of it. So perhaps while we wait for the revision that many seem to want, we should look at ourselves and try to revise our end of things.

That's good advice, so that may make finding a group easier if all former players decide to give PB a shot again, but it still doesn't put PB products for sale in our local shops.

I would play in a heartbeat if I can find people to play with, I have enough books to run games and I don't feel that I need to rewrite the game in order to play (just a house rule or two here and there).

[jaymz]

Hell even my houserules aren't that extensive anymore....no one to play with.

[Panomas II]

Has anybody ever thought that WE the players may be part of the problem? It seems that the attitudes of some of the people who post on other boards can be taken as rabid fanboyism. That which we consider to be a staunch defense of a favored game/system can be perceived differently by others. I have read some other boards and that seems to be a portion of it. So perhaps while we wait for the revision that many seem to want, we should look at ourselves and try to revise our end of things.

I have certainly have been part of the "problem," (sarcasm) as I've paid good $ for Palladium Books products. And I've published with the Rifter. I've even been a fan boy. I've told many folks why I prefer the Megaversal system and ran many games for Rifts, Palladium, Ninjas & Superspies and Dead Reign. I still do to this day, when I can.

I've also been critical of the company: Specifically of the RRT Kickstarter. How the other crowdfunding projects were handled and other things including rules so on and so forth...

You don't get one without the other in my case. (but, that's just me)

In my opinion, as to getting a revision. That ship has sailed or more likely, was never even at the dock (as illustrated by KS over the many years in his attitude to making new editions). Case in point: Savage Rifts. Savage Rifts is the closest thing to a new edition that you'll get.

[Forar]

Rather than taking it personally, a little reflection about how insular and toxic to critique the forums can be might be worth investigating.

Feel free to see the 'why are posts being deleted without warning or explanation?' thread in the Bugs and Suggestions subforum (of all places) for a little more insight into at least part of that.

And yes, before anyone bothers saying it; their house, their rules.

But that doesn't make them immune to critique for how they act or react.

Nobody and no community is perfect, but I too have seen people comment on these forums and the fans who have stuck around over the years. It's generally not a positive assessment.

[Jimbo]

My last was not meant as an attack on anyone, merely an observation of the other evidence as I see it. If I offended anyone, you have my apologies.
That being said, I too can say I have been critical of Palladium. Not the system so much as the production and release schedules and promises. Still waiting for the Old Kingdom Lowlands and Mountains books along with several other titles.
I, much like others I assume, jump on any new book that comes out for a game line we enjoy, even if we have no players at the moment.
And as to getting product on shelf, it seems to me that if we can create an interest in new players, then a cascade effect would be the FLGS would order more product, thus it would be on the shelves. Perhaps I am over simplifying things a bit, but at least we could be doing our part to promote our beloved game. Then it falls on the company to do their part.

[jaymz]

but at least we could be doing our part to promote our beloved game. Then it falls on the company to do their part.

Except that many of us (some way more than we probably should have honestly like myself and razzinold can attest to some of what I had done) have indeed done just that....Facebook groups, con events, fan run fan support, so on and so forth and for all that work we see little to no help at all from the company.

My personal efforts over the last decade or so:

- 3 Palladium RPG related Facebook groups (discussing the various games, houserules, conversions)

- 1 Palladium RPG related Proboard message forum (same as the Facebook groups)

- 1 RRT specific Proboard message board (which was getting more actual game related traffic than these very official forums for RRT)

- 1 RRT specific wiki (with a bunch of fan material and fan made support material as well as access to the official free PDF materials)

- I was very involved in the vetting of the conventional forces rules for RRT that we are yet to see 20 months later

- I was very involved in the errata process for RRT

- I was supposed to help and head up an organized play program for Palladium Fantasy similar to Paizo's Pathfinder Society.

- I have a personal wiki that has very heavily laden with material for Palladium's games which I still add too.

- I have a personal Facebook group that sees Palladium discussed frequently but the other games I play as well

- I have a personal Proboard message forum that is largely Palladium related though I cover all the games I play as well as TV etc (Mind you it is effectively dead space and only picks up every once in a while)

Of ALL the above...I now run my 3 personal items (wiki, proboard, fb group), I technically run a Palladium FB group but in title only, and I technically run the RRT wiki largely because I could not figure out how to hand over administration to it to another and I didn't want to delete it all as it gets used by many still happy RRT players.

The other 7 items above I walked away from because I was that fed up with the company repeatedly and constantly shooting everything in the foot largely through inaction on their part be it not completing books, proper communication (for the rules vetting and Fantasy project), or support in general.

The fan base has DONE it's part Jimbo....more than it's part, WAY more than it's part. And I am not alone in my walking away after such efforts as above. There are very few like me left. I applaud them for their efforts but I can no longer do what I did. I will still play their games myself but I will no longer support them publicly the way I had in the past. I just cannot justify the effort anymore and frankly it is on them for it.

[Jimbo]

Jaymz, you shame me sir. You and Razz have obviously done much to promote these games, where as I have kept my attempts on a much smaller scale trying to convert my old group from 3.5 and now looking at getting another group going. The FLGS, which is 45 miles away, would happily give me table space for a Saturday afternoon twice a month, but dang that's a haul! I am considering doing it anyhow, even though it would mean a ninety mile round trip. As for right now though, I guess I will just keep writing, painting and making terrain.

[jaymz]

No shame intended (and for the record I took no offense at your suggestion earlier either).

It is just that many of us have tried exactly that and have given up after years of no tangible reward for our efforts be it from the company or finding new players.

So now I do my own thing on my FB group/wiki which includes writing up and posting things for use in the Palladium/other systems, sharing pics of my playing battletech/xwing/armada/wh40k/attack wing, making terrain/etc for the previous mentioned games, or chatting gaming in general.

I do plenty of gaming so I keep myself busy.

[Razzinold]

Jaymz, you shame me sir. You and Razz have obviously done much to promote these games, where as I have kept my attempts on a much smaller scale trying to convert my old group from 3.5 and now looking at getting another group going. The FLGS, which is 45 miles away, would happily give me table space for a Saturday afternoon twice a month, but dang that's a haul! I am considering doing it anyhow, even though it would mean a ninety mile round trip. As for right now though, I guess I will just keep writing, painting and making terrain.

Nope just him.
All I can do is verify most of it. simply because I was around at the time, I didn't help do any of those things. I was there when he posted at his local shop but since he lived 45 minutes - hour away from me I didn't make it to any of the games.
Back in the day he and I were in a gaming group that met up a couple times a month for a few years but most everyone went their separate ways after a time for their own reasons, or maybe for all the same reasons who knows, and I also used to play in the online games he ran as well.

[Pronema]

The system isn't that difficult if you have someone to teach you however as I am overseas access to the ability to make it easy to play in groups online would be a huge benefit.

Keeping sites like DriveThruRPG up to date on new releases would be really helpful to me in particular, they don't have the new Rifters, the first 9 dimension books, only the newest Nightbane expansion, and they are missing a number of other books, such as the Conversion Books or older books like TMNT. (Which thankfully I have physical copies of, though I may need to leave them here in North America when I leave for overseas.)

This is a huge impediment for me to continuing to purchase products since shipping to South Korea is prohibitively expensive and also impacts my ability to play with others online. As a GM who has recently made the switch to being online, I can't look over the shoulder of my players to help them create characters or borrow one of their copies of a book, the advantage and disadvantage of having a distance gaming group is that everyone ends up buying a copy of the books, however, as I no longer have the luxury of walking to a local gaming store to buy a new book I am missing some of the newer releases.

Roll20 for an online table system or Tabletop Simulator if you are looking for a more 'virtual' experience are great. But even the character sheets available on Roll20 are missing a number of the handy features that sheets for Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder, or in old Fantasy Flight Warhammer 40k game sheets have like clicking on your skills or abilities to automatically roll them. (To be fair character sheet designs are maintained by players and GM's that use roll20 and I in no way expect someone at Palladium to create an account and spend time making a fillable PHP character sheet, that is where us as players and GM's need to jump in to help.)

This is an investment that needs to both be taken up by players, in the case of making a fillable auto-calculating character sheet, and Palladium by supplying GM's that want to get new people involved more means of introducing new players to Palladium's system without scaring them off when they are intimidate by more than 30 years worth of material.

I should be clear that I am in no way criticizing or even really providing suggestions in this post, just pointing out what has impeded me personally as a GM. As I mentioned above, access to materials for those that cannot order physical copies or go to a local game store is important to me as a GM and promoting the use of something like Roll20 for long distance gaming groups and development of more robust character sheets on said sites may really help GM's and is something we as players and GM's can do.

Something that Palladium themselves may want to do is provide an 'NPC database sourcebook' to GM's for free as it could be made from submissions by people on the forums here for example and be distributed as a PDF and not printed physically. I can be fairly certain that if the active GM's on the forums here started a thread for homebrew, no history, generic NPC and encounter tables we could fill a few dozen books with page after page of unique but disposable NPC villians, shopkeepers, barmaids, innkeepers, thieves, and the like. Heck I bet the employees at Palladium who have GM'd probably have binders full of that stuff by themselves, it would just be the organizing of the material that would take time.

I really enjoy making my own major antagonists for my campaigns but a compendium of disposable mooks and monsters with pre-created stats and skills could be a huge time saver for a ton of GM's. Everything from a pre-made platoon of Glitterboy Pilots, Glitterboy stats and abilities obviously don't need to be included but a page reference to the book any missing stats are found in would be handy, that may have that one random guy or girl with 3 languages or detect ambush and camouflage, a small group of mages, to a few dozen dragons with varied stats, demigod's, thieves, dog-boys, generic defense turrets, automated gun emplacements, and the like would be really helpful especially for new GM's. I should also be clear that I am not talking about things like the adventure books, as a GM I can create my own adventures or build off the ideas presented in other books such as the adventure books,
what would be handy is something that allows GM's to skip past the boring part of making semi-flat disposable villains, like the random thief who tries to sneak into the party's camp and steal from them, or the boring dragon terrorizing the countryside, ones that a GM could expand upon later if the villain survives but won't make someone like me feel I wasted my time when the players do what players do and either ignore the encounter entirely or turn it on its head. Individual's who have been GM'ing for years likely built stuff like fleshed out encounter tables and disposable villians over the years and keep material to be used from campaign to campaign, but new GM's or even a GM like me who has only run a few campaigns don't always have that stuff yet or get tired of making another dozen generic NPCs that can at least appear different from the last group.

(A Roll20 character sheet that allows the player to input the character's starting IQ bonus, the name of the skill, level of the character, and starting percentile and percentile increase per level of a skill so it could automatically add it up and it could be used as a clickable button would be great. A sheet like this also avoids actually adding any information from the books into the character sheet, I am thinking of working on one like that myself but I do will not have the time as an English Instructor in South Korea)

[Greepnak]

I've had to almost entirely rewrite the rules and include a whole bunch of others to address glaring issues in RIFTS at least, though I've enjoyed that process I wish I hadn't needed to.

I'd also say mean things to a sweet grandmother for some digital tools like a character generator or creature generator. It shouldn't be as hard as it is to create battle scenarios for heroically macho insane rpg maniacs.

[Pronema]

Who is the head of PR and/or Marketing/Promotions for Palladium? Or do they even have one? If they do, what has that person been doing these past years?

[jaymz]

Who is the head of PR and/or Marketing/Promotions for Palladium? Or do they even have one? If they do, what has that person been doing these past years?

That would be Kevin and his weekly updates.......and whatever the individual Megaveral Volunteers....I mean Ambassadors do. That is it.

[Pronema]

Who is the head of PR and/or Marketing/Promotions for Palladium? Or do they even have one? If they do, what has that person been doing these past years?

That would be Kevin and his weekly updates.......and whatever the individual Megaveral Volunteers....I mean Ambassadors do. That is it.

Well, that's a little unfortunate, that likely means no one employed actually reads this. And I doubt I will see the rest of Palladium's books released on DriveThruRPG, which is sort of a pain as I can't take that much with me overseas. So I will be missing a bunch of books. Well it would have been over a 1000 dollar purchase of books I already own anyway so I guess I am saving some money.

[Yartuk]

Miss playing had a regular play group for 5 years or more in Toronto. Still my fav for fantasy. The only thing I hear is from the emails. Never see it in stores anymore.