A holistic take on the Ikazuchi

[Bamse]

I just bought Art of the Shadow Chronicles. It describes the bow of the Ikazuchi as used to ram enemy vessels and open its twin bow doors to dispense mecha. This is as excellent tie-in with an earlier ship... the Daedalus. Even better, there is the Izum 10 seen in the beginning of Invid Invasion which looks a little like the Daedalus. The Izum 10 might even be Lancers base ship considering his being part of the 10th Mars Division. Anyhoo, the early REF might have included earlier variants of the Ikazuchi and ramming ships might have well been humanity's primary way of dealing with Zentraedi.

The 440 "other" mecha mentioned in the 600m Ikazuchi complement might include mostly Destroids and Condors for use in such ramming actions. Great against Zentraedi, lousy against Invid. The hangar bunkers would then have been used to launch Conbats or Sylphids against Zentraedi fighter pods in bunkers akin to those seen in SC.

When the UEEF, late in the game it seems, started fighting the Invid they might then have redone the Bunkers and fitted them with rapid launching Alphas in Battloid mode somewhere between 2038 and 2042.

[ShadowLogan]

The Izum 10 might even be Lancers base ship considering his being part of the 10th Mars Division.

Nothing actually indicates the Izum10 is involved with Lancer's 10th MD. The Izum 10 vessel though could be seen as an evolutionary outcome of the Deadeulus-class vessel, which observers will note in the background in Ep3 at various times (IIRC in Ep4 and in its preview for Ep5 but doesn't actually appear) that is flying in space (and/or in atmosphere, while the actual Deadeulus is in the harbor at Macross Island), that is considered an animation error (IINM).

the early REF might have included earlier variants of the Ikazuchi and ramming ships might have well been humanity's primary way of dealing with Zentraedi.

I doubt that was the primary method of dealing with the Zentreadi ships since in order to ram them you have to close the distance gap. Other than plot protected ships (like the SDF-1), we see ramming done very rarely in fleet actions.

The 440 "other" mecha mentioned in the 600m Ikazuchi complement might include mostly Destroids and Condors for use in such ramming actions. Great against Zentraedi, lousy against Invid. The hangar bunkers would then have been used to launch Conbats or Sylphids against Zentraedi fighter pods in bunkers akin to those seen in SC.

Sylphids are unlikely, they are not known at any time to be in the service of the UEEF. From a 2E RPG RAW perspective they can't even operate in space being air breathing vehicles (series canon may or may not be anything like the 2E RPG's RAW take).

The UEEF does have a few options from animation to replace the Slyphid in your scenario. What I refer to as the Wolf Flashback Fighter and Captenter Fighter (they don't have an official RT name AFAIK, and the uRRG and RR both using conflicting designations), both are seen in "Eulogy" and "Outsiders" respectively, but neither have anything like an official writeup anywhere that I know of. It is also possible the UEEF has access to the AGAC or a variant (depending on how one interprets series depiction of events)

Destroids (why are they still around?) and Conbats are possible, but so are Veritech Hover Tanks and Silverback Jeeps (or relatives as we know of the VHT-1 & 2, the Silverback is the VM-9, leaving the window open for additional types we haven't seen yet). Some of the 440 are described as "such as Beta Fighters", so there appears to be an airwing among those 440, at least after the Beta is introduced.

When the UEEF, late in the game it seems, started fighting the Invid they might then have redone the Bunkers and fitted them with rapid launching Alphas in Battloid mode somewhere between 2038 and 2042.

I doubt the UEEF waited until 2038, they have been fighting the Invid since at least 2030-1 (when the Invid invade Earth), and the Alpha is supposed to be in service already depending on where one looks and such.

[Seto Kaiba]

I just bought Art of the Shadow Chronicles.

Ah, my sincere condolances. As anime artbooks go, it's... how can I put this gently... terrible.

It describes the bow of the Ikazuchi as used to ram enemy vessels and open its twin bow doors to dispense mecha. This is as excellent tie-in with an earlier ship... the Daedalus.

Amusingly enough, the "tie-in" to Macross's Daedalus-class is almost certainly the entire point.

The Robotech staff at Harmony Gold put a lot of effort into trying to Macross-ize the New Generation in a not-unreasonable bid to improve the saga's audience appeal as a distant second-best to the Macross Saga during their development of Shadow Chronicles. Mind you, a fair bit of it doesn't really make sense in context. Their attributing ramship tactics to the Ikazuchi-class is kind of absurd given that the ships didn't have any kind of a pin-point barrier system to prevent them from damaging themselves during a ramming attack the way the SDF-1's arms (be they the Daedalus or an ARMD-class) did, every shot of the ship in action suggests it's armored with crepe paper and wishful thinking, and its point defenses literally didn't exist until the 2043-2044 retrofit (and in practice couldn't even hit targets as slow as the Invid). It's a dubious proposition that it'd last long enough in a fight to ram anything, let alone surviving the attempt.

Even better, there is the Izum 10 seen in the beginning of Invid Invasion which looks a little like the Daedalus. The Izum 10 might even be Lancers base ship considering his being part of the 10th Mars Division.

Unlikely... assuming Harmony Gold considered it to be a distinct class of ship rather than, say, artistic license in the backstory of the Invid invasion, they'd attributed it to the earliest attempts to liberate Earth (pre-1st ERF). It would have been before Lancer's time.

Anyhoo, the early REF might have included earlier variants of the Ikazuchi and ramming ships might have well been humanity's primary way of dealing with Zentraedi.

It seems unlikely for a few different reasons... some of which I elaborated upon above, but the biggest of which being that Robotech implies the Zentradi are more or less kaput as a military force after the First Robotech War and by 2042 are allegedly extinct or so close to it as to make no odds. It's not like Macross, where the Zentradi Army is made up of thousands of fleets the size of the 4,795,122 ship fleet under Boddole Zer that attacked Earth in 2009.

(Ramming attacks also didn't seem to work very well for the UEDF during the 2nd Robotech War... it tended to be a suicidal maneuver for their ships, which didn't do significant damage to the Robotech Masters ships when they tried.)

The 440 "other" mecha mentioned in the 600m Ikazuchi complement might include mostly Destroids and Condors for use in such ramming actions. Great against Zentraedi, lousy against Invid. The hangar bunkers would then have been used to launch Conbats or Sylphids against Zentraedi fighter pods in bunkers akin to those seen in SC.

When the UEEF, late in the game it seems, started fighting the Invid they might then have redone the Bunkers and fitted them with rapid launching Alphas in Battloid mode somewhere between 2038 and 2042.

By all official accounts, the Alpha fighter was the main fighter of the UEEF from 2022-2043, at which point a newly developed derivative model (the Shadow fighter) started to replace it. It's highly probable the Ikazuchi-class's bunkers were always configured to launch Alphas.

The Condors were designed to be mechanized paratroopers, probably not the best choice for a boarding action... whereas the Daedalus Attack tended to require large amounts of missile ordinance, which they don't have. The Sylphid doesn't seem to have been used by anyone except the UEDF during the 2nd Robotech War (the obvious reason being that it was unique to one of the shows, though the RPG justifies this as the UEDF/ASC developing its own mecha and fighters because they were butthurt about the UEEF taking all the resources.)

[Arnie100]

Sylphids are unique to the ASC. Described as part of the "Century" series of fighters. Logan's would have been available to the EF. If you remember the old Sentinels comics, the SDF-3 had a batch of them. Interestingly. EF Logan's had a multi-missile system in the comics. I remember a pic of it being posted in a thread.

[Bamse]

Sorry, Sylphid is simply my mind playing tricks. Meant to say Vulture which is at least the RRG name of Carpenters' fighters.

Ramming is not rare at all in Robotech. Just about everyone rams the enemy. Carpenter, Emerson, Geezers in the Garfish, Lancers boss in her Garfish. None of these ships seem to suffer irreperable damage from such an action. Human ships seem practically designed to ram stuff. It could even be that the Garfish missile tubes are designed to fire after a ram.

I agree that the Condor is a lousy substitute for a Tomahawk or MAC or Defender, etc when choosing what to put in the business end of your ramming ship.

As Marie Crystal states there is no "too far" for a laser turret so closing the distance at extreme speed might just be the way to go for human vessels.

I agree that the Alpha ought to be the premier fighter but Invasion puts that on its head.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ramming is not rare at all in Robotech. Just about everyone rams the enemy.

Key words in ShadowLogan's post were that ramming was rarely done "in fleet actions"... and on the very rare occasion that ramming is used as a tactic, in virtually all cases outside the Macross Saga it's a suicidal final attack.

Carpenter, Emerson, Geezers in the Garfish, Lancers boss in her Garfish. None of these ships seem to suffer irreperable damage from such an action. Human ships seem practically designed to ram stuff. It could even be that the Garfish missile tubes are designed to fire after a ram.

Yeah, every single one of those examples you cited was ramming being used as a final, suicidal attack. Ramming is not by any means a standard tactic.

Carpenter and Emerson's ships didn't sustain irreparable damage in their ramming attacks because their ships were already irreparably damaged before they committed to a ramming attack. In Carpenter's case, they abandoned ship before committing to the ramming attack and the ship blew up after it collided with the Robotech Masters ship. On Emerson's attempt, the ramming attack only wrecked the ship worse than it already was and killed most of the crew who had not already been killed in the battle, leaving Emerson and maybe a few others to escape after activating its self-destruct sequence... which again didn't seem to accomplish much. The old soldiers on that Garfish-class ship that rammed the Invid tower were all killed and their ship exploded when it collided with the tower. If memory serves, Lancer's commanding officer was the only survivor of her attempt to ram an Invid hive, and only then as an inevitable result of hitting something relatively soft and yielding compared to a starship hull. Likewise, Khyron's big ramming attack against the SDF-1 only succeeded in destroying the decommissioned and badly damaged SDF-1 at the expense of destroying his own ship and killing everyone aboard.

The Garfish-class is most definitely not designed to be a ramship either, considering how lightly armed it is and how they tend to explode when something runs into them.

As Marie Crystal states there is no "too far" for a laser turret so closing the distance at extreme speed might just be the way to go for human vessels.

Considering that tactic in the Masters Saga is shown to have more or less a 0% success rate... probably not.

I agree that the Alpha ought to be the premier fighter but Invasion puts that on its head.

The Invasion comic's remarks are vague and inconsistent with official canon regarding the Alpha's service life, but they had to come up with SOME excuse for why the 1st ERF in Robotech didn't have them.

(In the original MOSPEADA, it was because the AFC-01 Legioss was a NEW fighter in 2083 for the 2nd ERF.)

[ShadowLogan]

(Ramming attacks also didn't seem to work very well for the UEDF during the 2nd Robotech War... it tended to be a suicidal maneuver for their ships, which didn't do significant damage to the Robotech Masters ships when they tried.)

There are only 3 ramming attacks that I can think of in TRM:
-Emerson's use of the ship as a battering ram to help the 15th board the Flagship. For its intended purpose, it was shown to be remarkably effective (ie clear a path for the 15th, who are already on the surface). However Emerson did not impale his ship, it was more of a gouging/grazing attack, which is a bit different than other instances. Technically I qualify this as a ram, just a different type.
-Emerson's final use of the Tri-star you mentioned
-Carpenter's Tokagawa. This did result in the loss of the Tokagawa, but there is circumstantial evidence (at minimum) that the Cityship did suffer some wound from the detonation of the Tokagawa as secondary explosion(s) are present. I agree it was a suicide maneuver

IIRC there are also two instances of the Garfish ramming Invid Hive/facilities ("Invasion" comic where we see the ship crashed into a Hive, and the old timer's Garfish to destroy the broadcast tower).

It's highly probable the Ikazuchi-class's bunkers were always configured to launch Alphas.

But we also know that the bunkers come in two configurations, and one of them is far more flexible in terms of what it can launch and recover than the other one since it appears to be very "generic" with no "specialized" features.

I would also suspect that Alpha Battloid derived platforms might also be able to make use of the QLBs configured for them. Though those are merely speculation.

The Condors were designed to be mechanized paratroopers, probably not the best choice for a boarding action... whereas the Daedalus Attack tended to require large amounts of missile ordinance, which they don't have. The Sylphid doesn't seem to have been used by anyone except the UEDF during the 2nd Robotech War (the obvious reason being that it was unique to one of the shows, though the RPG justifies this as the UEDF/ASC developing its own mecha and fighters because they were butthurt about the UEEF taking all the resources.)

Re: large missile ordinance. The Condor carries 42 Short Range Missiles (or 64 Mini's) per 2E RPG (AFAIK no official RT stats). Last time I checked that outclasses the Tomahawk (30 SRM, 8 Mini's) and Spartan (24 SRM) units, the Defender has no missiles, and the Phalanx carries a different category of missile. And IINM/IIRC the Phalanx is a unit that is not shown participating in any Deadeleus Attacks, only Tomahawks, Defenders, and Monsters (which have 40cm cannons and Medium Range Missiles). From that perspective, it does look like the Condor carriers "large missile ordinace" as it out missiles the Macross counterparts (assuming 1:1 in terms of effectiveness) shown in the operation who use equivalent category of missiles.

Re: Role. I don't know if I'd consider the Condor a paratrooper (even if we do though), the unit is used to escort fighters and ships in space, along with providing support to ground forces. So it should in theory have the capacity to perform boarding actions and do it well IMHO (since boarding actions are performed with Marines or Naval Infantry), its main liability is in its gunpod (payload especially, range less so). The main question is if the Condors are used in a pure unit or mixed unit for boarding actions, which can change any assessment.

Ramming is not rare at all in Robotech. Just about everyone rams the enemy. Carpenter, Emerson, Geezers in the Garfish, Lancers boss in her Garfish. None of these ships seem to suffer irreperable damage from such an action. Human ships seem practically designed to ram stuff. It could even be that the Garfish missile tubes are designed to fire after a ram.

But it is rare to actually see it used by humans with their ships. If we toss out the Deadelus attack, other impale type ramming essentially amounted to a suicide run for the ship. Hardly an effective method. Even the aliens use ram attacks at this scale sparingly if at all, the Invid use mecha ramming/strikes with deadly results.

Also keep in mind that some of the ship is non-visible when they impale their targets, so irreparable damage could be obscured from view.

[Seto Kaiba]

There are only 3 ramming attacks that I can think of in TRM:
-Emerson's use of the ship as a battering ram to help the 15th board the Flagship. For its intended purpose, it was shown to be remarkably effective (ie clear a path for the 15th, who are already on the surface). However Emerson did not impale his ship, it was more of a gouging/grazing attack, which is a bit different than other instances. Technically I qualify this as a ram, just a different type.

By the accepted definition of ramming in a naval context, this would not constitute a ramming attack (or an attempt) given that the intention was not to leverage the ship's momentum to damage the enemy ship... it was to avoid direct, head-on collision with the enemy ship and merely skim it to secure the advance of boarding troops. More along the lines of an aircraft buzzing enemy troops to get them to duck than flying to collide.

-Emerson's final use of the Tri-star you mentioned
-Carpenter's Tokagawa. This did result in the loss of the Tokagawa, but there is circumstantial evidence (at minimum) that the Cityship did suffer some wound from the detonation of the Tokagawa as secondary explosion(s) are present. I agree it was a suicide maneuver

There's evidence that damage was inflicted, yes... but there's nothing to suggest the damage was debiliating, or even significant, which is the de facto goal of any ramming attack (and particularly the suicidal ones). Ideally, a ship executing a ramming attack is looking to sink or at least completely disable an enemy ship by running into it. It had little, if any, impact on the prevailing tactical situation besides perhaps annoying the Robotech Masters who were already operating some of those ships remotely IIRC.

Re: large missile ordinance. The Condor carries 42 Short Range Missiles (or 64 Mini's) per 2E RPG (AFAIK no official RT stats).

OSMly it didn't have any, so I tend to take the RPG spec with a small Dead Sea worth of salt.

[...] and Monsters (which have 40cm cannons and Medium Range Missiles).

I've often wondered why Robotech insisted on downplaying the Monster's armaments... given that it's literally a walking gun battery. (OSM-ly speaking, the missile launchers in the arms were designed to deploy long-range, high-powered ground-to-ground or anti-ship tactical reaction ordinance and the cannons were equipped to take strategic level reaction ordinance.)

Even the aliens use ram attacks at this scale sparingly if at all, the Invid use mecha ramming/strikes with deadly results.

Even then, the Invid's ramming attacks are always of the kamikaze variety because they're the living embodiment of "We have reserves".

[Bamse]

People have spent the better part of two decades (since RT.com came onlne) trying to figure out the Ikazuchi. IF they are made to ram enemy vessels they make some sense. That nose is not a gun and it doesn't ever appear to launch fighters. Now that the Artbook in my hand claims that it Daedalus-attacks its targets I think it makes more sense, not less. It also gives a fairly ok reason as to why it's so hopeless against Invid.

I agree that no ramming action works out great outside of Macross but neither do the ships in question crumple together like aluminium foil when they hit. At least their nose section seem more than thick enough to take the punch even though the side of their hulls sometimes can't even take a single claw attack...

[Seto Kaiba]

People have spent the better part of two decades (since RT.com came onlne) trying to figure out the Ikazuchi.

Not really... for most, the question was settled rather comprehensively back in '83 when the people who created the mechanical designs for Genesis Climber MOSPEADA said the Ikazuchi-class was a carrier of sorts, meant for moving large numbers of transformable fighters around to support orbit-to-surface landing operations. After all, who better to know what the bloody thing was for than the people who created it, right? Despite some distortion by the volunteer researchers, that fact came through pretty clear into Robotech's official specs when they started compiling them sixteen years ago.

IF they are made to ram enemy vessels they make some sense. That nose is not a gun and it doesn't ever appear to launch fighters. Now that the Artbook in my hand claims that it Daedalus-attacks its targets I think it makes more sense, not less. It also gives a fairly ok reason as to why it's so hopeless against Invid.

If they were made to ram enemy vessels, it makes no sense... since we've seen that human ships in Robotech aren't sturdy enough to ram enemy ships or structures and come away undamaged enough to still fight, the UEEF's ships have never been depicted even ATTEMPTING it despite Invid ships being quite literally defenseless. Now, on the other hand, as we DO see quite a number of Ikazuchi-class ships explode as a result of BEING rammed by things as small and fragile as individual Invid scouts (which structurally can't stand up to hits from antipersonnel munitions)... that would tend to sink the notion that they're structurally strong enough for ramming attacks, as if ramming only being used by ships that are already doomed wasn't enough of a hint.

I agree that no ramming action works out great outside of Macross but neither do the ships in question crumple together like aluminium foil when they hit. At least their nose section seem more than thick enough to take the punch even though the side of their hulls sometimes can't even take a single claw attack...

Granted, human ships that ram other ships don't usually crumple like aluminum foil... the typical reaction is for the human ship to explode like a sock full of party snaps.

[ShadowLogan]

OSMly it didn't have any, so I tend to take the RPG spec with a small Dead Sea worth of salt.

Which doesn't make sense in RT's context (to bad the Condor didn't warrant an entry into the Infopedia or AotSC). Technologically it could have such a system as it shares aesthetics when another mecha (Alpha) that is known to possess such features (scale is of course an issue based on the 2E RPG size, then you have the Marine Desteroids, etc). Not an air-tight case by any means.

From the RPG's canon-verse it would make even less sense (origins as a Beta competitor would almost require it to have some launching capacity, it's a heavy assault unit, etc) to be a gunpod only unit.

I've often wondered why Robotech insisted on downplaying the Monster's armaments... given that it's literally a walking gun battery. (OSM-ly speaking, the missile launchers in the arms were designed to deploy long-range, high-powered ground-to-ground or anti-ship tactical reaction ordinance and the cannons were equipped to take strategic level reaction ordinance.)

They haven't technically in canon, I was trying to compare by a single source (hence the 2E RPG, though in general 2E RPG and Infopedia are in basic agreement about the Destroids missiles, so it might give an idea of HG's thinking sans an official Infopedia/AoTSC-esque Mecha Data). The Infopedia writeup avoids a missile categorization in terms of range for the Monster, only listing it's diameter (and quanity).

Even then, the Invid's ramming attacks are always of the kamikaze variety because they're the living embodiment of "We have reserves".

Yeap, but in terms of resources the Invid spent destroying a UEEF ship the Invid lose one (or a few) pilots and mecha, the UEEF just lost a ship with dozens (if not more) and all the hardware on the ship (which could include mecha). It is deadly effective weapon for the Invid when they vs UEEF ships, even if it was a kamikaze run for the Invid pilot(s) involved, the UEEF loses far more.

Despite some distortion by the volunteer researchers, that fact came through pretty clear into Robotech's official specs when they started compiling them sixteen years ago.

I'd say it goes back even farther given that the 1E RPG also had it as a "carrier" when they did stats for Sentinels (which puts it into the ~25year category). The 1E RPG likely has had some influence on RT researchers in the past. So I'm not sure why there is any doubt about its intended function (as a "carrier").

People have spent the better part of two decades (since RT.com came onlne) trying to figure out the Ikazuchi. IF they are made to ram enemy vessels they make some sense. That nose is not a gun and it doesn't ever appear to launch fighters. Now that the Artbook in my hand claims that it Daedalus-attacks its targets I think it makes more sense, not less. It also gives a fairly ok reason as to why it's so hopeless against Invid.

While you are correct that the nose doesn't appear to launch fighters (or mecha or used as a BFG), that doesn't mean the ramming explanation works. In order for a Deadalus-attack to work, you need to deploy a boarding force somehow.

[Seto Kaiba]

Which doesn't make sense in RT's context [...]

Robotech doesn't HAVE a context for the Condor... they never bothered to officially stat it, and can't even give a consistent answer on IF their version transforms or how many modes it has.

While you are correct that the nose doesn't appear to launch fighters (or mecha or used as a BFG), that doesn't mean the ramming explanation works. In order for a Deadalus-attack to work, you need to deploy a boarding force somehow.

More importantly, in order for a Daedalus Attack to work the ship executing it has to be able to withstand running into another ship heat on and with enough speed to reliably breach the target ship's hull... something only the Daedalus herself achieved, and only then with the help of the SDF-1's pinpoint barriers.

(IMO, it's rather telling that those sorts of ramming attacks are employed only rarely even in Macross's timelines, where pinpoint barrier technology and transformable warships are commonplace. The only time it was ever "Plan A" was the Daedalus II-class assault carriers from the Macross II: Lovers Again prequels Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song... a specially-developed derivative of the ARMD-class intended for decapitation strikes against Zentradi and Meltrandi mobile fortresses.)

[ShadowLogan]

Robotech doesn't HAVE a context for the Condor... they never bothered to officially stat it, and can't even give a consistent answer on IF their version transforms or how many modes it has.

Exactly. We have no direct context for the mecha, but we have indirect context we can look at to see if it "looks right" in terms of the OSM (if one is inclined to look there and how far).

More importantly, in order for a Daedalus Attack to work the ship executing it has to be able to withstand running into another ship heat on and with enough speed to reliably breach the target ship's hull... something only the Daedalus herself achieved, and only then with the help of the SDF-1's pinpoint barriers.

The Deadalus and the Ikazuchi-class are clearly NOT designed for ramming attacks, and would need some type of barrier system. You get no argument from me on that front, but with a properly designed ship with Ramming attacks in mind a Barrier system is not necessary..

If we take AotSC at face value (why I don't know), along with the apparent lack of a properly designed ram prow it would imply:
-the the Ikazuchi-class does sport a barrier system of some kind even if it is not stated
-the UEEF has a thing for turning their big ships into missiles directly (Ikazuchi-class, Angel-class) and indirectly (Garfish-class, Tokagawa-class)

Given what we know note about UEEF decision making in general I'm inclined to go with #2, though I suspect if pressed/asked HG would probably say #1 (or say to disregard the statement all together).

[Seto Kaiba]

The Deadalus and the Ikazuchi-class are clearly NOT designed for ramming attacks, and would need some type of barrier system. You get no argument from me on that front, but with a properly designed ship with Ramming attacks in mind a Barrier system is not necessary..

My girlfriend found one more problem with the premise of the Ikazuchi-class as a ramship that slipped both of us by... how does it back out after ramming the enemy ship?

Since the Daedalus Attack entails firing off a lot of explosive ordinance into the hull of the enemy ship and then legging it before the ship goes up like an accident in a fireworks factory, being able to withdraw to a safe distance after delivering the lethal payload is kind of a must.

The ships in Macross that are designed or improvised for ramming tactics always have some way to back themselves away from the ship they just rammed before it goes KABOOM... they're either equipped with a large outboard set of engines to provide the same kind of thrust in reverse that they used to ram (e.g. Daedalus II-class), they're attached to a much larger warship's body and that ship uses its more powerful engines to back off (e.g. the Daedalus, the Macross Quarter-class's ARMD-L), or both (the ARMD-class). The Ikazuchi-class has a few well-defined and sizable clusters of high-output thrusters in its line art, but NONE of them are oriented to provide braking thrust or reverse power... and it doesn't seem to have nozzles which are equipped with thrust reversers either.

Granted, it's theoretically possible to produce a ship robust enough to withstand ramming without protection from a barrier, but it doesn't seem to have been something the UEDF or UEEF tried to do.

(As an aside, Macross's creators might take exception to the idea that the Daedalus-class wasn't designed to ram... it's actually shown carrying out a ramming attack against an enemy submarine in a flashback segment in Macross the First, though it's implied this was principally enabled by the target being a conventional pre-OTM submarine that wasn't made of materials nearly as tough as the Daedalus was. Its designers mostly considered ramming things like sub-surface obstacles out of the way.)

If we take AotSC at face value (why I don't know), along with the apparent lack of a properly designed ram prow it would imply:
-the the Ikazuchi-class does sport a barrier system of some kind even if it is not stated
-the UEEF has a thing for turning their big ships into missiles directly (Ikazuchi-class, Angel-class) and indirectly (Garfish-class, Tokagawa-class)

Come to that, since a fold system works like a Star Trek warp drive in Robotech... one has to wonder why the latter didn't extend to remedial actions against Reflex Point. Just take a suitably small ship, point her at Reflex Point, and turn her into a FTL ramship... with a small enough ship and short-enough runup, that could take Reflex Point right off the map with a near-zero probability of intercept. Or, heck, with a long enough runup, do it at a high sublight speed instead. Air Raid. Kills Invid dead.

[ShadowLogan]

My girlfriend found one more problem with the premise of the Ikazuchi-class as a ramship that slipped both of us by... how does it back out after ramming the enemy ship?

That is another issue. Two potential solutions:
1. If the ship has barrier capability, it might rely on that to protect itself from the explosion (ala the SDF-1's attack on Dolza's fortress).
2. The ship just keeps penetrating until it comes out the other side. They might not even need to stop as a per canon 154mx177m (if not bigger) hole going in one end and out the other is likely to have some serious repercussions for the target ship (especially if you know where to place the hole for maximum effect), though here you don't even need boarders.

Both have their problems. For #1 we don't see much evidence of high capacity barrier systems in use by humans outside of the SDF-1 (presence of non-visible shields sure via dialogue, but nothing on the order it would probably need). For #2 we're probably talking about a lot of engine power to push the Ikazuchi out the other side of a ship (granted they could minimize the required distance).

Come to that, since a fold system works like a Star Trek warp drive in Robotech... one has to wonder why the latter didn't extend to remedial actions against Reflex Point. Just take a suitably small ship, point her at Reflex Point, and turn her into a FTL ramship... with a small enough ship and short-enough runup, that could take Reflex Point right off the map with a near-zero probability of intercept. Or, heck, with a long enough runup, do it at a high sublight speed instead. Air Raid. Kills Invid dead.

The kinetic energy of a ship would deliver on impact would be my guess and the impact it would have on Earth (and concern for the people on the surface). Even a Garfish (pre-refit) traveling at just .10c has 3.14x10^22 J of energy before it enters the atmosphere (at 0.9c we are looking at 2.54x10^24 J), an asteroid (iron, 179m diameter so similar in basic size to a Garfish) travelling at just 11km/s would have 1.45x10^18 J before it enters the atmosphere*, pushing it to the website's maximum of 72kps yields 6.23x10^19 J of energy pre-atmosphere for the asteroid.

Really though the UEEF doesn't even need to use ships like this, they could just use them to start flinging asteroids (or comets) of suitable size in volume at the Invid in a much more energy efficient use. Time might be an issue (some intelligence on the Invid or FoL might make it impractical).

Heck if we assume an Angel-class w/N-S Warhead has a mass similar to the Zentreadi Destoryer (similar size, assuming Angel and Ark-Angel are equivalent in size), it will have slightly more KE (2.39x10^12 J) as a 179m diameter Iron Asteroid travelling at 11kps (I know size wise they aren't comparable), I'd say fancy warheads on those N-S missiles aren't really necessary, they are essentially on demand meteor strike system. And a velocity of 11kps should be well within the Angel-class engine capabilities if it is expected to move around a target solar system without using a Fold Drive to get from World-A to World-B (or even a given World's potential moons).

*I'm using an impact calculator on Purdue's website for the asteroid, basic KE formula for the Garfish since the impact calculator doesn't allow over 72km/s. I used the densest material I could (so less dense materials won't have the same energy): http://www.purdue.edu/impactearth/

[Bamse]

If the Ikazuchi needs engine thrusters in its bow we ought to look at possibilities. One is that the bow doors are indeed equipped with thrusters. Another, if one would like there to be a sizable engine behind said thruster nozzles would be that the lower half is a massive thruster package and the upper holds the boarding hangars.

[Bamse]

The Izum 10 vessel though could be seen as an evolutionary outcome of the Deadeulus-class vessel, which observers will note in the background in Ep3 at various times (IIRC in Ep4 and in its preview for Ep5 but doesn't actually appear) that is flying in space (and/or in atmosphere, while the actual Deadeulus is in the harbor at Macross Island), that is considered an animation error (IINM).

I have never read anything outside of the RRG that claims the space going Daedalus and Prometheus class vessels were animation errors. During the actual fold of the SDF-1 there are vessels in the ocean and another (Prometheus class) hovering above them in the air. Beautiful shot apart from the double vision and all. It all seems very planned. It could be that the animation was farmed out and the animators were pulling ideas out of their... However, in Macross Plus we see a future spacecraft (a "cruiseliner") lift from a body of water in much the same way. I've never been able to prove this but I think thst's what the animators/designers/writers meant when they wrote semi-submersible air/spacecraft carriers. A spaceship that lands on/in water becomes semi submersed. Gloval's quote to the contrary turns this upsidedown in Robotech. He says something similar in the English dub of Macross.

Does the Izum 10 have anything resembling bow engine thrusters?

[Seto Kaiba]

1. If the ship has barrier capability, it might rely on that to protect itself from the explosion (ala the SDF-1's attack on Dolza's fortress).
2. The ship just keeps penetrating until it comes out the other side. They might not even need to stop as a per canon 154mx177m (if not bigger) hole going in one end and out the other is likely to have some serious repercussions for the target ship (especially if you know where to place the hole for maximum effect), though here you don't even need boarders.

Neither of those seems particularly likely... if the Ikazuchi-class had an actual, workable barrier system then the UEEF shouldn't be losing them to Invid kamikaze attacks with monotonous regularity. Likewise, going so fast that a ship passes clean through the target would negate the need for the bow door entirely, and would require even more shield coverage than it already doesn't have.

The kinetic energy of a ship would deliver on impact would be my guess and the impact it would have on Earth (and concern for the people on the surface).

I'm sure the former could be dialed appropriately, and in the latter case the UEEF didn't seem to have any problems resorting to scorched Earth (literally scorching the Earth) tactics.

If the Ikazuchi needs engine thrusters in its bow we ought to look at possibilities. One is that the bow doors are indeed equipped with thrusters. Another, if one would like there to be a sizable engine behind said thruster nozzles would be that the lower half is a massive thruster package and the upper holds the boarding hangars.

That doesn't make any sense either, really... why put thrusters used for deceleration and maneuvering in a place that prevents them from being used without depressurizing a large-ish chunk of the ship? It'd also cut down on what the ship theoretically would have for usable volume for mecha when the mecha are the bulk of the punch behind a move like the Daedalus Attack.

I have never read anything outside of the RRG that claims the space going Daedalus and Prometheus class vessels were animation errors. During the actual fold of the SDF-1 there are vessels in the ocean and another (Prometheus class) hovering above them in the air. Beautiful shot apart from the double vision and all. It all seems very planned.

That's one of quite a few animation errors that Macross's creators have identified in their earliest work. It was a fairly innocent gaffe, someone drew the intermediate layer cel using the wrong animation model sheet, the ships are supposed to have been Oberth-class space destroyers. (I don't believe the finger was ever pointed at StarPro or AnimeFriend for that error, though.)

To a Macross fan, it's obvious at a glance that it's an error... as dialog from "Space Fold" has General Global say that neither ship was designed to be operated in space, and the official spec for those ships identifies them as both being one-of-a-kind at that time. (Subsequent titles, e.g. Macross the First, have identified some of the others that were there at the time, though the only other carrier present was the CVN-100 Graf Zeppelin II, a sister ship to the CVN-99 Asuka II[sup]1[/sup] from Macross Zero, which was presumably lost with all hands during the fold event itself.)

However, in Macross Plus we see a future spacecraft (a "cruiseliner") lift from a body of water in much the same way. I've never been able to prove this but I think thst's what the animators/designers/writers meant when they wrote semi-submersible air/spacecraft carriers. A spaceship that lands on/in water becomes semi submersed.

Ah, no. While most classes of ship are capable of a water landing in Macross - it's only really the ARMD family[sup]2[/sup] that can't - what they meant is rather different from what you're imagining. What they meant, and what they've had explained and illustrated in several interesting technical publications for the series, is that those ships were built to operate both normally (ie, on the surface at a normal draft) and while almost completely underwater with only their flying bridges sticking out.[sup]3[/sup] It's a stealth operating mode that reduces the ship's radar return to almost nothing, due chiefly to almost none of the ship actually being above the water. They were not designed for use in space by any means, and underwent considerable retrofitting to hook up to the Macross life support and artificial gravity to resume operations while in space.

(They may actually be capable of operating completely underwater for short spans, as the SLV-111 Daedalus was depicted briefly doing so under the direction of her original captain, John Morton, to scare an Anti-Unification Alliance submarine to the surface so he could bring the Daedalus up at an angle so it would come down on that submarine with its keel like an axe when the Daedalus surfaced. It worked quite handily, and the resultant "Oh ****" moment on the part of the Anti-Unification Alliance sailors is pretty good too when they realize a ship fully half a kilometer long snuck up on them. Immediately prior to that scene it was shown in submersed stealth running mode, with just the two bridge towers sticking up out of the water.)

Does the Izum 10 have anything resembling bow engine thrusters?

Nope, though we only see a watercolor painting of it... and not exactly up close or in high detail.



1. Only two Asuka II-class ships were built, both of which were overtechnology testbed/demonstrator platforms and both were named for experimental ships fielded in pre-unification Earth history. CVN-99 was named Asuka II in honor of Japan's JDS Asuka, and CVN-100 was named for the canceled German experimental aircraft carrier from World War II, the Graf Zeppelin-class.

2. Well, not ALL of them... the ARMD-class, ARMD II-class, and Guantanamo-class Advanced ARMD aren't designed to land in water (or anywhere else). The Macross Quarter-class's ARMD-L may be capable of water landings in independent operation, and the Macross II timeline's Daedalus II-class carriers had the ability to make water landings.

3. Actually a relatively common technology for non-military vessels in certain roles... ocean drilling rigs, mobile drydocks, and other specialist large craft operate in this manner.

[ShadowLogan]

Neither of those seems particularly likely... if the Ikazuchi-class had an actual, workable barrier system then the UEEF shouldn't be losing them to Invid kamikaze attacks with monotonous regularity. Likewise, going so fast that a ship passes clean through the target would negate the need for the bow door entirely, and would require even more shield coverage than it already doesn't have.

I agree neither is likely, and they both have their problems, mostly connected with the shield technology. Then again maybe the Invid have their own (unstated) version of destabilizer technology packed into their mecha which allows them to pass through barriers unhindered giving the impression of no shields at all (something that comes up in Star Trek TNG/DS9 and maybe VOY).

The bow door(s) would not necessarily be negated either, they could use them to still disembark forces under different conditions. After all the Deadalus's bow ramp wasn't intended for only disemarking ground troops into an enemy starship, no reason the Ikazuchi's bow door(s) has to be intended for that either (as a secondary incidental use it could be).

I'm sure the former could be dialed appropriately, and in the latter case the UEEF didn't seem to have any problems resorting to scorched Earth (literally scorching the Earth) tactics.

I'm sure it could be dialled appropriately for a given ship.

I agree the UEEF doesn't have a problem with resorting to scorched Earth at the upper level of command (like Reinhardt, Hunter), but the lower ranks don't seem overly fond of the idea (Sparks, the UEEF officer in TSC).

It all seems very planned.

It might look very planned, but that doesn't mean it can't have its origins as an animation error in the OSM. In SDC:SC/TRM the Sylphid Fighter appears to have 3 different wing configurations in a very consistent manner, but only 2 of them are acknowledged in the 2E RPG (you'd have to ask RSCF or maybe Seto if they are AEs or not from a production standpoint)

[glitterboy2098]

to be honest, i could buy that the prow could be specially reinforced. we see the ASC ships (which are older tech, relatively speaking, and decidedly NOT designed for ramming) manage to ram Master's motherships without destroying their prows. so making the prow reinforced and given tougher armor doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

such design would also give the advantage of making a prow on approach more survivable (Ikazuchi's being very narrow profile means that if they're advancing right at an enemy, incoming shots would either go right past, or hit that reinforced prow..)

[Seto Kaiba]

I agree neither is likely, and they both have their problems, mostly connected with the shield technology. Then again maybe the Invid have their own (unstated) version of destabilizer technology packed into their mecha which allows them to pass through barriers unhindered giving the impression of no shields at all (something that comes up in Star Trek TNG/DS9 and maybe VOY).

Invid mecha are decidedly low-feature content, so I think we can probably rule that out...

The bow door(s) would not necessarily be negated either, they could use them to still disembark forces under different conditions. After all the Deadalus's bow ramp wasn't intended for only disemarking ground troops into an enemy starship, no reason the Ikazuchi's bow door(s) has to be intended for that either (as a secondary incidental use it could be).

Granted, they could use a bow ramp for other purposes... but the Daedalus was a surface-based landing ship, so it NEEDED a ramp. The Ikazuchi-class is an aircraft carrier, rather than a troop lander, and being taller than it is wide makes for a uselessly large door for disembarking troops (esp. when you'd want to limit the exposure of the ship's interior to enemy fire.)

It all seems very planned.

It might look very planned, but that doesn't mean it can't have its origins as an animation error in the OSM. In SDC:SC/TRM the Sylphid Fighter appears to have 3 different wing configurations in a very consistent manner, but only 2 of them are acknowledged in the 2E RPG (you'd have to ask RSCF or maybe Seto if they are AEs or not from a production standpoint)

Yeah, there are quite a few examples where things the creators have identified as animation errors look official just because of an editing error (e.g. the Garfish-class fighter capacity) or because some mook in a contract studio drew something wrong in an entire scene (e.g. the VF-1 nose lasers).

To the best of my knowledge, the creators of Southern Cross have never officially commented on problems in their show's production... but it's understandable that they never got the opportunity, and probably wouldn't want to even if they had due to the show having been canceled for low ratings and only producing one official artbook that was decidedly half-arsed.

[ShadowLogan]

Invid mecha are decidedly low-feature content, so I think we can probably rule that out...

Maybe, but we know the Invid have Barrier technology of their own ("Eulogy", "Dark Finale", "Symphony of Light", IIRC) and they would need away to pass their own mecha to come and go if the barrier is up (though they could probably do it with timing or opening holes).

Granted, they could use a bow ramp for other purposes... but the Daedalus was a surface-based landing ship, so it NEEDED a ramp. The Ikazuchi-class is an aircraft carrier, rather than a troop lander, and being taller than it is wide makes for a uselessly large door for disembarking troops (esp. when you'd want to limit the exposure of the ship's interior to enemy fire.)

Granted, but there IS Precedent in Robotech:
-Crusader Class Dropship (Prelude, granted this is a post 85ep invention, but then so is this feature we are discussing)
-MTA Titan/GMU (Sentinels material)
-Garfish Hangar Module (open position exposing two tubes, but they don't stay open for long, unless on the ground per L&W)
-SDF-1's side mounted forward/rear facing launch bays (Ep3, though per dialogue "they close the landing bays during combat")

The thing is we know in canon the Ikazuchi is supposed to have an extra 440 mecha (Beta used as an example), and numerous auxillary vehicles. They need a way to get in/out of the ship by current RT canon. They can't use the Alpha's QLBs, maybe with the TSC "version" it wouldn't be an issue (QLBs are now tubes, plus the side facing mid-ship open bay, etc), but with the NG/85ep "classic" it is going to be an issue (unless that is relegated to another class vessel with similar looks).

and only producing one official artbook that was decidedly half-arsed.

Better or Worse than AotSC?

[Bamse]

I think the old-style Ikazuchi might well sport a rear door/hangar bay for reclaiming mecha (the ones from SC apparently have their fold system there). The lower "underslung" bay could also be used for recovering mecha. Heres a question: do the 440 mecha include Cyclones?

[Jefffar]

I think we can safely assume that the Ikazuchi and the Garfish were intended to be short range systems (and definitely were in the OSM). Using a Garfish to haul a squadron of fighters seems like a waste of a space fold system and the original launch system for the Alphas on the Ikazuchi may have forced the pilots to endure weeks in the cockpit of their craft as there seems to be no way into the mecha in battloid mode and no way to store the mecha on-board the ship in another form then transfer it to the launch bays.

So, how do we get around this in the show? Is there some sort of unknown tender craft that accompanies the Ikazuchis, transferring mecha and personnel to them just before the battle before retreating to a safe distance? Or has the space fold capabilities of the UEEF evolved to the point that an Ikazuchi need only be readied for combat hours before the battle and space fold in?

[ShadowLogan]

I think the old-style Ikazuchi might well sport a rear door/hangar bay for reclaiming mecha (the ones from SC apparently have their fold system there). The lower "underslung" bay could also be used for recovering mecha. Heres a question: do the 440 mecha include Cyclones?

Do the 440 include Cyclones? Within Series Canon no one knows if there is a separate Cyclone force (and the emergency mecha doesn't appear to be noteworthy given the Garfish). Now per the RPG writeup that is another matter (someone with said writeup for 2E will have to comment).

Right now it is more speculation on alternative entry/exit point locations in the "classic" Ik from the 85ep series. All we can do is point to a feature and go it might be. Even with the "new" Ik from TSC we are left doing that mostly (the only real noticeable feature is the side-to-side passage, and the alternate QLBs "interior", and we are told in the bow but don't see it used)

Using a Garfish to haul a squadron of fighters seems like a waste of a space fold system and the original launch system for the Alphas on the Ikazuchi may have forced the pilots to endure weeks in the cockpit of their craft as there seems to be no way into the mecha in battloid mode and no way to store the mecha on-board the ship in another form then transfer it to the launch bays.

Re "Classic" Ik QLBs:
Access to the Battloid mode cockpit of the Alpha seems possible/implied from the series as we are treated to a few scenes where none of the NG crew is in the cockpit with a Battloid mode Alpha in view (from the front). OSM-ly speaking the issue appears to be answered that the back opens up, and there does appear to be enough space between the Alpha-Bs in the QLBs to allow them to "open up", but the feature itself was never displayed (so depending on if HG wants to stick with the OSM approach or go more "Macross-ie" or something else...).

Re Garfish:
From certain POVs those "15" fighters can act like 15-225 of some of the other VFs from past sagas.

While the Garfish is carrying around 15 fighters, those 15 fighters are carrying (15*60=) 900 missiles between them (plus another 120 even shorter range missiles). Other than the VBF-1 Beta Fighter, and assuming no add-on extras (Fast Pack ex) in terms of missile capacity the Alpha:
-has x15 more equivalent size missiles than the VF-8 Logan, but the Logan can't really carry the diversity. In reality you probably trade 1 Alpha for 2 Logans in the bay
-has x3.75 more missiles than the AGAC, but again lacks the diversity
-depending on the VF-1 model and wing hardpoint configuration (infopedia or RPG) they can range from x1/= to x5 more on the Alpha than a VF-1 w/o add-ons.

Obviously missile types aren't all created equal in terms of range and destructive capacity here. Plus the Beta and VF-1 w/add-ons would out perform the Alpha by this metric. I do not dispute these points, but on paper the Alpha/Garfish combination appears to have sharper teeth, even if it has fewer. (For comparison the much heavier armed and larger Tri-star has an air-wing of 220 units of lighter "capacity" units)

[Jefffar]

The Garfish - A single squadron of attack fighters isn't enough to make a difference in an offensive campaign against a peer opponent. It could be useful like an escort carrier to provide some protection to other ships in the group or on picket duty. But to launch strikes against a defended planet, not much sense.

[ShadowLogan]

A single squadron? Not likely but it is possible that a single squadron could make the difference against a peer opponent depending on any number of factors (arrival time, experience, etc).

Actually it can make sense to use it to launch strikes against a defended planet if its part of a larger package, which is how you are going to launch strikes against a defended planet in all likelihood. It is also how we see the Garfish deployed in various actions (10th MD, 21st MD, ep84-5/TSC), as part of a larger package, when assaulting a target world.

[Jefffar]

However in that scenario, there's no real advantage to having a bunch of Garfish over another Ikazuchi. Either the ships will have a lesser combined air group than the Ikazuchi, or you'll have so many of them that it would have been cheaper to build another Ikazuchi.

[Seto Kaiba]

Granted, but there IS Precedent in Robotech:
-Crusader Class Dropship (Prelude, granted this is a post 85ep invention, but then so is this feature we are discussing)

Hm... you've got a point there. I'd forgotten what a stupidly tall bay door that thing had.

The thing is we know in canon the Ikazuchi is supposed to have an extra 440 mecha (Beta used as an example), and numerous auxillary vehicles. They need a way to get in/out of the ship by current RT canon. They can't use the Alpha's QLBs, maybe with the TSC "version" it wouldn't be an issue (QLBs are now tubes, plus the side facing mid-ship open bay, etc), but with the NG/85ep "classic" it is going to be an issue (unless that is relegated to another class vessel with similar looks).

Assuming, of course, that they exist at all... they've never actually been depicted. The Robotech stats write an awful lot of checks the show can't cash in the latter two sagas. If Shadow Chronicles is any indication, those stats are something more like a theoretical maximum rather than an actual operating complement.

and only producing one official artbook that was decidedly half-arsed.

Better or Worse than AotSC?

... as The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles actually had information, however basic, about the chronology, setting, and mecha, and wasn't full of creepy lolicon art that bordered on pornographic in places, I'm gonna have to go with "worse". Only about 1/2 to 1/3 of This is Animation 10: Southern Cross had direct relevance to the show. (Mind you, the other stuff that was published for the series betrayed a decidedly half-arsed approach from the production team in general. The lion's share of the mecha don't even have names, let alone stats.)

I think the old-style Ikazuchi might well sport a rear door/hangar bay for reclaiming mecha (the ones from SC apparently have their fold system there). The lower "underslung" bay could also be used for recovering mecha. Heres a question: do the 440 mecha include Cyclones?

That seems profoundly unlikely. Fold systems are large, fiddly, and require significant integration into a ship's energy infrastructure. That's not the kind of system that would get relocated in a retrofit. I'd also be a bit leery about putting a ramp somewhere where the disembarkees could find themselves confronted by the heat wash from running or recently deactivated fusion engines.

With respect to the misc. mecha including Cyclones... that's officially unknown. As noted above, none of these extra and ancillary craft have ever been depicted in an official title.

I think we can safely assume that the Ikazuchi and the Garfish were intended to be short range systems (and definitely were in the OSM). Using a Garfish to haul a squadron of fighters seems like a waste of a space fold system and the original launch system for the Alphas on the Ikazuchi may have forced the pilots to endure weeks in the cockpit of their craft as there seems to be no way into the mecha in battloid mode and no way to store the mecha on-board the ship in another form then transfer it to the launch bays.

So, how do we get around this in the show? Is there some sort of unknown tender craft that accompanies the Ikazuchis, transferring mecha and personnel to them just before the battle before retreating to a safe distance? Or has the space fold capabilities of the UEEF evolved to the point that an Ikazuchi need only be readied for combat hours before the battle and space fold in?

The Garfish-class wasn't really intended to be a carrier in its own right... OSM-ly its fighter complement is mostly to protect itself during orbital insertion and landing, since it was essentially a large, fast, lightly-armed freight hauler carrying supplies for the infantry being landed by the Horizont shuttles.

Fold systems being what they are, I'm not sure a tender is necessary. They'd just jump right from a supply base to wherever the area of operations was without needing to dither around in space for weeks or months at a time while waiting for orders. They're barely ships, really... they're almost a submunition-carrying cruise missile. Even in the operations to retake Earth, they were all being staged within eyeshot (literally) of the objective instead of coming in from afar.

Re Garfish:
From certain POVs those "15" fighters can act like 15-225 of some of the other VFs from past sagas.

... maybe Logans, but certainly not anything else. Especially given that the Macross Saga spec, in its haste to copy from the Macross Compendium and Macross Mecha Manual, copied over stuff that doesn't exist in Robotech like the UUM-7 missile pods. All missiles are not created equal either, the Infopedia kind of implies the ones used in the New Generation are low-powered (it even refers to the Cyclone's missiles as anti-personnel munitions).

[ShadowLogan]

Assuming, of course, that they exist at all... they've never actually been depicted. The Robotech stats write an awful lot of checks the show can't cash in the latter two sagas. If Shadow Chronicles is any indication, those stats are something more like a theoretical maximum rather than an actual operating complement.

While I agree they haven't been depicted, as of right now they are supposed to be there per HG and we can even show that is possible for them to be there (by volume at the canon size).

All missiles are not created equal either, the Infopedia kind of implies the ones used in the New Generation are low-powered (it even refers to the Cyclone's missiles as anti-personnel munitions).

I agree not all missiles are created equal, I even noted it later. Though I at no times was going to replace those 15 Alphas with Cyclones for the job, that would just be silly.

However in that scenario, there's no real advantage to having a bunch of Garfish over another Ikazuchi. Either the ships will have a lesser combined air group than the Ikazuchi, or you'll have so many of them that it would have been cheaper to build another Ikazuchi.

We don't know though where the cut off is in terms of being more cost effective to build and operate a single Ikazuchi or multiple Garfish.

For example, if we ignore the Ik's 440 extra for a moment (as they aren't used in space combat). You need 10 Garfish to approximate the Ik's QLB Alphas (technically you get an extra 6 units with the 10 Garfish). Those 10 Garfish will also have a smaller personnel requirement (~100 for each Garfish, so 1000 in total vs ~1700 for the Ik). It also gives you 10 triple turrets (assuming the turrets are comparable), and 10 6-tube missile launchers (which the Ik doesn't posses anything of this type). Each of those 20 weapon systems is also individually positionable in ways that the Ik's batteries can not match in terms of coverage (you could roll each Garfish to better position them, the Ik's are relatively fixed in relation to each other). It also means that the enemy has to destroy 10 vessels instead of just one, which in theory could be an asset that could take them longer to complete than a single Ik and avoids putting to many eggs in one basket (so to speak).

Now if we try to match the Ik with its 440, you need approximately 40 Garfish (39). Here you end up needing over twice as many people as a single Ik (going off the Infopedia/AotSC), but you still end up with everything else about the Garfish formation still applying that could be seen as an edge.

[Seto Kaiba]

A single squadron? Not likely but it is possible that a single squadron could make the difference against a peer opponent depending on any number of factors (arrival time, experience, etc).

But when has the UEEF ever fought against a peer opponent? They've been the underdog in literally every war they've been in or planned to be in...

That isn't to say that a single squadron might not be able to make a meaningful impact. Remember, the war the Garfish-class was built in expectation of was an invasion of the Robotech Masters' homeworld. They were expecting to come up against an enemy force that was far more technologically advanced, but few in number and inexperienced after so long spent using the Zentradi to solve their problems. Under a set of conditions like that, a squadron more or less could mean the difference between an enemy position holding or being overwhelmed by a numerically superior force.

Of course, against the Invid, who had less of a technical advantage but overwhelming numerical superiority, it meant precisely nothing...

(Though, as I noted above, the Garfish-class's limited fighter complement is there mostly to protect the ship itself and the vital supplies it would be hauling for the ground troops.)

However in that scenario, there's no real advantage to having a bunch of Garfish over another Ikazuchi. Either the ships will have a lesser combined air group than the Ikazuchi, or you'll have so many of them that it would have been cheaper to build another Ikazuchi.

That's assuming, of course, that fuel consumption scales linearly as well... a fewer number of Garfish-class ships could be consuming more fuel because each of them needs to fold independently to get where it's going.

While I agree they haven't been depicted, as of right now they are supposed to be there per HG and we can even show that is possible for them to be there (by volume at the canon size).

Canon size being another issue... but taking Shadow Chronicles as a guide, it seems unlikely that those 440 mecha were ever present at all, let alone in the modern day. (Of course, the vast, empty, echoing internal spaces may simply be a case of "Sci-fi writers have no sense of scale".)

I agree not all missiles are created equal, I even noted it later. Though I at no times was going to replace those 15 Alphas with Cyclones for the job, that would just be silly.

My point was that the Alpha's missiles are pretty weak compared to what other mecha are armed with, so the basis for the comparison isn't really sound to begin with... the RPG throws them a bone, and throws older craft a NERF, but we aren't actually talking specifically about the RPG in this case.

[ShadowLogan]

But when has the UEEF ever fought against a peer opponent? They've been the underdog in literally every war they've been in or planned to be in...

They haven't AFAIK. But generally you assume peer-level IINM.

Of course, against the Invid, who had less of a technical advantage but overwhelming numerical superiority, it meant precisely nothing...

Let's consider though the question "how many missiles does it take to destroy an given mecha"? Both TMS and NG missiles are quite capable of doing sufficient damage to destroy their targets individually, BUT both also employ volleys of missiles which IIRC is typically 4 (VF-1 doesn't breach that IINM, the Alpha and Beta most certainly are known to go beyond that). That means a series depicted Alpha can fire off 15 volleys of 4, but the VF-1 (as depicted) could only do 3 such volleys (more if we give it a FAST Pack at +11 IIRC, but then we have to consider an Alpha w/Beta counter part), and the Beta can do 14 (though connected to an Alpha it's only 4, AND we are ignoring the Beta's wing hardpoints that HG says the unit has but doesn't use). So if pilots restrict themselves to volleys of 4, an Alpha has a 5:1 edge over the VF-1 without its FAST Packs, but it drops to nearly 1:1 with them (though technically I don't think we see the 3 missiles per pylon combined with FAST Packs, just 1 or 2 per pylon) with a slight edge to the Alpha (add-in the Beta and its restricted payload increases it a bit more).

We might also want to consider the Alpha's synchronized MM-60 option shown in "Hired Gun" means that a single Alpha can fire off its entire payload in one massive volley to target multiple opponents (I counted 37 between the two) for a similar missile to kill ratio of ~0.31 (compared to 0.25 above). Since that is one instance, with two irregular pilots, I am willing to concede that they might have "gotten lucky", but it is also possible they are not as proficient at the synchronized assault (Scott's use of the massive volley like this is over kill for the 1 or 2 units its shown being used on). Off hand I don't recall a VF-1 (or pair) able to empty their missile payload with similar results in TMS.

The AGACs fires cluster missiles, but IIRC only in pairs (and usually at 2 targets) but if we treat each "cluster" missile as equal to a volley (payload of 12, not as good as an Alpha or Beta, but better than a VF-1 stock). The Logan's canon payload of 2 missiles, comes out worse than the stock VF-1.

My point was that the Alpha's missiles are pretty weak compared to what other mecha are armed with, so the basis for the comparison isn't really sound to begin with... the RPG throws them a bone, and throws older craft a NERF, but we aren't actually talking specifically about the RPG in this case.

Actually we don't have anything (from the Infopedia) that says the Alpha's missiles are weaker or stronger than the ones issues to the VF-1, Beta, AGAC or Logan in terms of destructive yield, range yes (but that assumes that short, medium, and long range concept remain relatively unchanged), destructive yield no. I would not confuse stated diameter with destructive yield (and the AGAC doesn't even list a size, just "cluster missile").

[Seto Kaiba]

But when has the UEEF ever fought against a peer opponent? They've been the underdog in literally every war they've been in or planned to be in...

They haven't AFAIK. But generally you assume peer-level IINM.

You assume peer level when you can be relatively certain that the worst enemy you're likely to fight is going to have military capabilities on a comparable level to your own. The US, for instance, operates on the assumption that their worst-case scenario is facing a country with comparable military capability to its own... like Russia or China. There isn't any reason for the UEEF to develop weapons or strategies on the assumption of a peer foe, because they were headed into space to confront what, as far as they knew, was the galaxy's dominant power and creators of the vast armada that just finished beating seven shades out of them barely a decade ago. The discovery that said empire's territories were occupied by a hostile force would only have intensified the emphasis on a non-peer assumption in planning.

Let's consider though the question "how many missiles does it take to destroy an given mecha"?

To be honest, that's not even remotely relevant to the point you're replying to. The Invid had such a huge numerical advantage over the UEEF that it would be unlikely to make a significant difference even if their Alpha fighters could last long enough to fire all of their munitions. If we don't count the invisible background mecha that don't exist, the Invid carrier holds more than three times as many fighters as the UEEF's standard carrier. When all it takes is for a single Invid scout to sink a UEEF ship via a kamikaze run, they have an almost insurmountable advantage. Against the typical UEEF carrier group seen in RTSC, a single Invid carrier still has 156 more mecha to play with than the 13 ship UEEF formation.

Against the Robotech Masters, the UEEF's numbers game is highly favorable... but against who they actually ended up fighting? No such luck.

Actually we don't have anything (from the Infopedia) that says the Alpha's missiles are weaker or stronger than the ones issues to the VF-1, Beta, AGAC or Logan in terms of destructive yield, range yes (but that assumes that short, medium, and long range concept remain relatively unchanged), destructive yield no. I would not confuse stated diameter with destructive yield (and the AGAC doesn't even list a size, just "cluster missile").

Given that the series depicts the armor of the Bioroids and Invid mecha as being light enough that an infantry-issue laser rifle or anti-personnel rocket can inflict significant or even lethal damage, the only logical assumption that can be drawn is that the weapons in the latter two sagas are significantly less powerful than the Macross Saga's, given what those mecha are shown surviving or even shrugging off.

(This is, of course, a legacy of the original settings... both in Southern Cross and MOSPEADA humans had replaced bullets with lasers, but generally the weapons were not noticeably more powerful than their conventional equivalents. Macross, of course, went the other way... with humanity putting it over the top to ensure that the weapons they used would be effective against an alien threat.)

[Jefffar]

However, as the Zentraedi's weapons were designed in part to counter the threat of the Invid, and the Zentraedi's weapons were able to easily defeat the armour of even the Tomahawk, we have to assume that the Invid did have a significant level of armour.

Or we could come to a similar conclusion that Invid Mecha and UEDF mecha had comparable levels of armour. This means that the ASC and UEEF mecha, which were seen on occasion withstanding anti-mecha weapons fired by their alien opponents, must have been considerably tougher than UEDF mecha.

Or we could stop trying to hijack the topic by trying to prove one chapter of the show is better than other chapters of the show before I have to start getting all moderator.

[glitterboy2098]

Could also be that the invid have gone through doctrine changes... With older mecha being fewer but more heavily armored, and the stuff in the show being a response to the zentreadi stuff by switching to a more attrition/swarm based approach using more agile but less armored mecha en-mass

[Jefffar]

Please reread the last paragraph of my previous post.

[Seto Kaiba]

However, as the Zentraedi's weapons were designed in part to counter the threat of the Invid, [...]

That's a common assumption... but also largely baseless in Robotech's official canon. It's never stated in an official source that the Zentradi or their equipment were designed to fight the Invid, and it doesn't really make a lick of sense if you look at their equipment.

To minimize the deviation from the actual point I was trying to make before someone else went off on a tangent on missiles, your argument doesn't fit the evidence or work out logically.

The point I was making - which, as I said previously, missiles have no relevance to - is that the UEEF's fleet tactics are clearly designed around an assumed numerical supremacy. This isn't a force set up around long-range endurance or sustained patrols, this is a dedicated planetary assault outfit composed mainly of ground forces and a short-ranged transformable fighter. This is a force designed to quickly flood a surface-side target area with men and materiel, set to roll over the opposition before it's properly organized and establish a beachhead for a second landing wave. That strategy hinges entirely on that first wave getting through and crushing the local opposition under the sheer press of numbers. It's the perfect tactic for confronting a foe like the Robotech Masters, who aren't really used to fighting for themselves anymore, have very limited numbers of troops as a result of their dependence on the Zentradi, and have become rather complacent as a result of their belief in their own superiority. By the time they got organized and got over the shock of being invaded, the UEEF probably would've had Tiresia locked down. In operating conditions like that, a single squadron from a Garfish-class ship could still have enormous tactical impact as a result of UEEF numerical superiority and the sheer speed of the strike. They can strike and displace much faster than a Bioroid if there's no hoversled handy (the way many Bioroids were shown operating in Sentinels), and since the Masters don't have many actual troops of their own even a small force could easily tip the balance of a battle.

The problem is that the UEEF ships like the Ikazuchi-class are really designed around the assumption that this first heavyweight strike is going to wipe away the opposition. They're not set up for sustained carrier operations in orbit, they fighters they carry aren't designed to return to orbit for recovery, and fighters are pretty much their only line of defense against enemy aircraft until the 2044 retrofit. When they don't have that numerical superiority, they don't work. Like I said earlier, with the Invid carrier carring 156 more mecha than an entire typical UEEF carrier group, they're at a MASSIVE disadvantage. A far smaller number of Invid ships can keep a whole UEEF fleet bottled up in orbit to be slowly chewed to pieces if the UEEF's first strike doesn't punch through... and that's exactly what we see for the 2nd and 3rd ERF in the series. Even with the UEEF handicapping the Invid with shadow technology, the Invid still managed to bring their superior numbers to bear to stop the UEEF advance dead in its tracks in orbit and would have likely defeated the UEEF a third time had the Regess not decided to take her ball and go home. Against Invid, the single squadron a Garfish-class ship carries is inconsequential regardless of how many missiles they have, because the sheer weight of numbers in the Invid's favor means they'll be overwhelmed even if they manage to use those missiles to the fullest.

Or we could stop trying to hijack the topic by trying to prove one chapter of the show is better than other chapters of the show before I have to start getting all moderator.

If you're gonna play the moderator card, then it's probably not a good idea for you to continue participating in the thread, as that would make it very difficult for you to remain objective. For the record, I didn't start this tangent, ShadowLogan did... and YOU ran with it with a completely off-topic post. I tried to bring the thread back to topic. I'm trying again in this post too.

In fact, if you read my last post you'll note I made a clear statement that this missile schtick isn't relevant and then explained WHY it wasn't relevant.

[ShadowLogan]

There isn't any reason for the UEEF to develop weapons or strategies on the assumption of a peer foe, because they were headed into space to confront what, as far as they knew, was the galaxy's dominant power and creators of the vast armada that just finished beating seven shades out of them barely a decade ago. The discovery that said empire's territories were occupied by a hostile force would only have intensified the emphasis on a non-peer assumption in planning.

Not exactly. The UEEF base though would/should include Zentreadi level technology, which would/should/could put them at peer or near-peer level with the Masters given the Zentreadi where created to be their "army" by all indications (at that point).

Given that the series depicts the armor of the Bioroids and Invid mecha as being light enough that an infantry-issue laser rifle or anti-personnel rocket can inflict significant or even lethal damage, the only logical assumption that can be drawn is that the weapons in the latter two sagas are significantly less powerful than the Macross Saga's, given what those mecha are shown surviving or even shrugging off.

Not necessarily. There are actually three logical assumptions that can be drawn:
1. As you say the armor is weaker
2. The weapons are more destructive (at least for Robotech, not necessarily the OSM).
3. Areas of the mecha are weak by their nature such that infantry-level weapons are effective. Most direct Cyclone Kills, regardless of weapon system used, IINM on Invid mecha come from Eye Shots, and the ASC/Masters weapons are shown to have a similar as narrow a range ("visor", maybe even other aspects of their "gasmask").

Honestly I think #3 is the one that makes the most logical sense for Robotech. We don't really have to assume anything to make it work, given even common sense should tell anyone that.

#2 is ultimately what the RPG assumed back in 1E days and carries over to this day in the form of MD/MDC.

#1 requires us to assume a line of thinking that doesn't really add up when explored. The ASC was set to handle round2+ with the Zentreadi (dialogue statement), but had their hands full with the Masters. The UEEF also went looking for the Masters, so would be in the ASC range and they also had trouble with the Masters ("Outsiders") and Invid.

That's a common assumption... but also largely baseless in Robotech's official canon. It's never stated in an official source that the Zentradi or their equipment were designed to fight the Invid, and it doesn't really make a lick of sense if you look at their equipment.

I agree, per dialogue references though the Invid* probably are a factor (a minor one), but dialogue also gives us cues to "Disciples of Zor" as being the main threat and possibility of Zentreadi offshoots (which might include DoZ) are implied by both Leonard and Gloval.

*Given the rate of Invid evolution though I'm not sure if we can claim the Invid of the 2030-40s is the Invid the Masters/Zentreadi would have had to deal with. The Invid could have tried several different takes on evolution, with results being dicated by not only effectiveness but also resource availability (like Protoculture).

Like I said earlier, with the Invid carrier carring 156 more mecha than an entire typical UEEF carrier group, they're at a MASSIVE disadvantage.

We know that the UEEF Alpha has the capability to engage ~18:1 odds successfully. One Ikazuchi carries 144 Alphas (no debate on that) vs Invid Carrier with its 450 units. That gives the Invid ~3:1 advantage in terms of numbers in a ship v ship engagement (if the Ikazuchi is operating with escorts the advantage shrinks), but given Alpha capabilities those fighters should have no trouble defending the Ikazuchi. I think the real question is why the UEEF was unable or unwilling to use the capabilities to engage the Invid successfully to defend an Ikazuchi.

For the record, I didn't start this tangent, ShadowLogan did... and YOU ran with it with a completely off-topic post. I tried to bring the thread back to topic. I'm trying again in this post too.

Actually Jeffar brought the Garfish into the discussion that ultimately spawned this tangent.

[Seto Kaiba]

Skipping the bits Jefffar is cross about... we can take those up via PM later if you're game.

Not exactly. The UEEF base though would/should include Zentreadi level technology, which would/should/could put them at peer or near-peer level with the Masters given the Zentreadi where created to be their "army" by all indications (at that point).

Granted, if the Robotech setting had a logical technological progression we could reasonably expect that the UEDF and UEEF would have begun to develop their military technology towards the level of capability represented by the Zentradi. It's doubtful they could actually reach that level of capability in the limited timeframe of the series, however. The Zentradi and their equipment were something developed back in the golden age of the Robotech Masters' empire, after all, and it's one of the key story premises in Robotech that robotechnology is not something properly understood by more than a handful of super-geniuses like Zor, the Robotech Masters, Dr. Lang, etc.

Because Robotech is a Cut and Paste Translation made from unrelated stories, they didn't have the opportunity to insert that kind of technical development. This led to the issues we've gone over many times before WRT disparities in evident and listed performance between sagas, etc. and the creative director-endorsed perception the official materials and RPG both pick up on that state of military technology isn't exactly improving war-to-war.

Like I said earlier, with the Invid carrier carring 156 more mecha than an entire typical UEEF carrier group, they're at a MASSIVE disadvantage.

We know that the UEEF Alpha has the capability to engage ~18:1 odds successfully. One Ikazuchi carries 144 Alphas (no debate on that) vs Invid Carrier with its 450 units. That gives the Invid ~3:1 advantage in terms of numbers in a ship v ship engagement (if the Ikazuchi is operating with escorts the advantage shrinks), but given Alpha capabilities those fighters should have no trouble defending the Ikazuchi. I think the real question is why the UEEF was unable or unwilling to use the capabilities to engage the Invid successfully to defend an Ikazuchi.

Let's frame that in its proper context... the UEEF Alpha has the capability to engage at those odds successfully when flown by top aces from the UEEF's most elite squadron. That isn't what you'd call a reasonable representative sample of the fighter's typical combat performance.

The standard carrier group seen in Shadow Chronicles is made up of 1 Ikazuchi-class carrier and twelve Garfish-class ships as escorts. That's a total of 324 aircraft vs. a single Invid carrier's capacity of 480, or three Invid for every two Alphas. With just twenty of the standard Invid carrier, the Regess could fight on a level footing against the entire UEEF fleet of almost 400 ships. With the Alpha's more typical performance only being able to handle a few Invid before being downed itself, the UEEF's lack of superior numbers led to the 2nd ERF being swarmed and torn to pieces by sheer weight of numbers, and the 3rd ERF spent the entire battle deadlocked in orbit despite technically being invisible to the enemy because there were simply SO MANY of them that they couldn't break through.

For the record, I didn't start this tangent, ShadowLogan did... and YOU ran with it with a completely off-topic post. I tried to bring the thread back to topic. I'm trying again in this post too.

Actually Jeffar brought the Garfish into the discussion that ultimately spawned this tangent.

True!

[ShadowLogan]

Sure we can move aspects to PM.

Granted, if the Robotech setting had a logical technological progression we could reasonably expect that the UEDF and UEEF would have begun to develop their military technology towards the level of capability represented by the Zentradi. It's doubtful they could actually reach that level of capability in the limited timeframe of the series, however. The Zentradi and their equipment were something developed back in the golden age of the Robotech Masters' empire, after all, and it's one of the key story premises in Robotech that robotechnology is not something properly understood by more than a handful of super-geniuses like Zor, the Robotech Masters, Dr. Lang, etc.

Because Robotech is a Cut and Paste Translation made from unrelated stories, they didn't have the opportunity to insert that kind of technical development. This led to the issues we've gone over many times before WRT disparities in evident and listed performance between sagas, etc. and the creative director-endorsed perception the official materials and RPG both pick up on that state of military technology isn't exactly improving war-to-war.

Well the UEDF/UEEF could "salvage" and "recondition" Zentreadi systems into their ships and mecha. We know they did this for the Fold Drive (per AotSC), so they could have written in the assumption that other systems where to. Nothing was really preventing HG from working from this angle either if they wanted to put in the actual work (and not just edit uRRG submissions).

Let's frame that in its proper context... the UEEF Alpha has the capability to engage at those odds successfully when flown by top aces from the UEEF's most elite squadron. That isn't what you'd call a reasonable representative sample of the fighter's typical combat performance.

First that 18:1 is just using their missile payload, it completely ignores their gunpod and the use of "optional" features like the Beta (or anything else HG retro-actively "creates" for "capability addition").

Second since when would Rook and Rand, civilian irregulars, qualify as Elite UEEF Squadron level? In "Hired Gun" they employ a rack emptying missile salvo to swat down 37 Invid Armored Scouts between them (Plus Rand used the gunpod for a few more kills that episode). It just doesn't seem like an "elite" tactic if two irregulars can pull it off (it should be noted that Rook and Rand do not favor using missiles in the Alpha, in fact IINM this is the ONLY TIME they use them, unlike Scott, or at least when it comes to getting on screen kills. This is pretty much true of Lancer as well in the Alpha, I don't recall off hand how Lunk operates the Alpha in "Big Apple" if he favored missiles or gunpod or was just there for "show"). So 18:1 via missile salvo may or may not be accurate for fully trained (but not elite) UEEF pilots.

The standard carrier group seen in Shadow Chronicles is made up of 1 Ikazuchi-class carrier and twelve Garfish-class ships as escorts. That's a total of 324 aircraft vs. a single Invid carrier's capacity of 480, or three Invid for every two Alphas. With just twenty of the standard Invid carrier, the Regess could fight on a level footing against the entire UEEF fleet of almost 400 ships. With the Alpha's more typical performance only being able to handle a few Invid before being downed itself, the UEEF's lack of superior numbers led to the 2nd ERF being swarmed and torn to pieces by sheer weight of numbers, and the 3rd ERF spent the entire battle deadlocked in orbit despite technically being invisible to the enemy because there were simply SO MANY of them that they couldn't break through.

Actually it would be 324 (=144+(15*12)) UEEF v 450 Invid per AotSC (pg121 & pg139, and old Infopedia). Or ~1.4 Invid for every 1 Alpha (7 Invid for every 5 Alpha). Not to mention it completely ignores the (12) Garfish's potential contribution ("Ghost Town" DOES have the Garfish destroying a pair of Armored Scouts with its missiles, and "Invid Invasion" does show the cannon taking down a Scout), since the Ik's weapon systems aren't shown to be used in this way ("S.o.L" might, but its hard to say if it was a tripple cannon fire from the Ikazuchi or Garfish that smack down the various Invid Mecha and a Calm Ship).

I'm not sure if we know what the actual level of proficiency for a UEEF pilot IS if we focus on the red (or should they be green?) shirts. Most of them seem to favor their gunpod IIRC as we see them use missiles rarely. We also only really have 3 episodes to pull from (plus TSC), unlike TMS (and TRM has the issue of "fire-and-forget-to-show-results" a lot of the time for lower level characters).

[Bamse]

So, about those Ikazuchis
There's an Ikazuchi without any bunkers at all in the Shadow Chronicles. Good pic of it on Robotechresearch. Probably an animator who left early but it's there now. if the bunkers are simply slung on the sides this does add a layer of difficulty to Alpha recovery. Maybe a reason why the Alphas are so great at hovering in battloid. Must be a nuisance trying to land back into one of the QLBs.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well the UEDF/UEEF could "salvage" and "recondition" Zentreadi systems into their ships and mecha. We know they did this for the Fold Drive (per AotSC), so they could have written in the assumption that other systems where to.

Fold systems and reactors, if you take the RPG's view... but either way, it seems they were determinedly stripping the Zentradi ships for parts they couldn't replicate on their own reliably, and scrapping the rest. The level of capability of the UEDF and UEEF ships produced after that period doesn't really support the idea that anything BUT the fold drives and reactors was salvaged.

Nothing was really preventing HG from working from this angle either if they wanted to put in the actual work (and not just edit uRRG submissions).

Eh... nah, the animation was doing a fair bit to prevent them from working that angle. They were basically stuck with the level of capability actually depicted in the series, otherwise they'd have just opened up a million and one new plot holes in a series that was already oversupplied with them to begin with. For instance, giving the UEEF ships Zentradi tier weapons would break the entire plot of the New Generation... why bother landing troops and trying to take Reflex Point on foot when the UEEF could sit back and bombard the Invid hives into oblivion from lunar orbit like Breetai did to Macross Island?

First that 18:1 is just using their missile payload, it completely ignores their gunpod and the use of "optional" features like the Beta (or anything else HG retro-actively "creates" for "capability addition").

That still assumes the fighter survives long enough to actually leverage its weaponry in full... they almost never do.

Second since when would Rook and Rand, civilian irregulars, qualify as Elite UEEF Squadron level?

Sorry, thought you were referring to Maia Sterling's little spree in the Shadow Chronicles flick... but my point is not really going to change much. Rook and Rand are main characters, which puts them in pretty much the same category as elite pilots. Not only do they have plot armor that prevents them from being destroyed like a normal soldier would have been in their situation, but they're also inexplicably highly proficient with mecha that the duo couldn't possibly have received any kind of proper training on. That is NOT typical performance. Rook is quite possibly a natural anyway, given that she was ALREADY a highly-proficient Cyclone user before the party met her... and she's neither a marooned soldier nor connected to any until Scott's band picks her up.

Actually it would be 324 (=144+(15*12)) UEEF v 450 Invid per AotSC (pg121 & pg139, and old Infopedia).

Ah, I was using the number from the OSM... I was posting from work, and our VPN doesn't play nice with archive.org for some reason. Still, in round number terms it doesn't change the math noticeably... roughly 3 Invid for every 2 VFs, assuming all of the UEEF ships in question are fully packed to their listed value. (RTSC's animation suggests that the 3rd ERF may not have been.)

Not to mention it completely ignores the (12) Garfish's potential contribution ("Ghost Town" DOES have the Garfish destroying a pair of Armored Scouts with its missiles, and "Invid Invasion" does show the cannon taking down a Scout), since the Ik's weapon systems aren't shown to be used in this way ("S.o.L" might, but its hard to say if it was a tripple cannon fire from the Ikazuchi or Garfish that smack down the various Invid Mecha and a Calm Ship).

The fact that these are isolated incidents... even one-of-a-kind in the series... suggests these are also not typical. The way not a single Invid seems to have been shot down by the Ikazuchi-class ships that had even been retrofitted to have point-defense guns in addition to their anti-ship turrets definitely argues against it.

So, about those Ikazuchis
There's an Ikazuchi without any bunkers at all in the Shadow Chronicles. Good pic of it on Robotechresearch. Probably an animator who left early but it's there now. if the bunkers are simply slung on the sides this does add a layer of difficulty to Alpha recovery. Maybe a reason why the Alphas are so great at hovering in battloid. Must be a nuisance trying to land back into one of the QLBs.

Yeah, even in CG modeling there are still errors made here and there... did you notice that they got lazy with textures on all the CG models in the movie? Many of them have backwards text on one side, because they drew one side of the texture and flipped it horizontally to create the other instead of drawing both sides. (They also didn't antialias a lot of their textures, so many of the ships and fighters are surrounded by a haze of white background layer pixels...)

The bunkers were originally just slung on the sides of the Ikazuchi design in the original MOSPEADA... but the Shadow Chronicles version turned them into a protrusion housing ten Battlestar Galactica-esque small catapults. Neither version really gave any thought to the ship recovering fighters...

[Bamse]

Well, recovering fighters with the Shadow Chronicles BSG-style hangars would be a darn sight easier. The fighters might simply fly back. Not something you'd want to do in a hurry but really no different to how the Garfish presumably retrieves its fighters.

[ShadowLogan]

Fold systems and reactors, if you take the RPG's view... but either way, it seems they were determinedly stripping the Zentradi ships for parts they couldn't replicate on their own reliably, and scrapping the rest. The level of capability of the UEDF and UEEF ships produced after that period doesn't really support the idea that anything BUT the fold drives and reactors was salvaged.

Which makes a certain amount of sense, but if you are able to salvage items with superior performance to what you can build "new" why scrap the "old"?

I'm not sure if we can say that about UEDF/UEEF ships though. Remember that we have a statement that they are basically set for another round if it is the Zentreadi. The Masters simply outclassed them, which would make at/near-Zent. Level difficult to spot if in comparison you are being outclassed. The UEEF ships are likely on par with UEDF, though for whatever reason they are don't employ the best operations approach.

For instance, giving the UEEF ships Zentradi tier weapons would break the entire plot of the New Generation... why bother landing troops and trying to take Reflex Point on foot when the UEEF could sit back and bombard the Invid hives into oblivion from lunar orbit like Breetai did to Macross Island?

Several reasons come easily to mind:
-Environmental Impact. Earth was still recovering from the RoD (in RT), and the Hives are more likely to be situated in habitual zones (who knows what environmental impact destroying Reflex Furnaces would cause)
-Human shields. While not applicable to all Hive locations, there may have been sizeable human populations nearby (or even believed).
-Protoculture availability. The use of bombardment weapons could be too PC intensive for the UEEF to support if it didn't work (in TSC they are left with a 1year supply, and that probably assumes a certain level of use).
-Invid Barriers. We know that Reflex Point has one (and are shown a similar barrier guarding an entranceway), so it might be that Zentreadi weapons aren't up to the task since they had to bring in (new) specialized weapons to poke holes in the barrier (weapons that might not have the range yet to be effective).

I'd probably also add that I have have noticed the Zentreadi in a few episodes, as a background filler, appear to have N-S missiles as part of their fleet (I know I've mentioned it in the past, complete with timecodes, but I don't recall them). So they could actually be shown to have Zentreadi weapons (and some GCM designs can be taken to have a heavy SDF:M inspiration in places).

That still assumes the fighter survives long enough to actually leverage its weaponry in full... they almost never do.

This though comes down to doctrine vs capability. For whatever reason the UEEF doctrine does not emphasize their pilots to leverage their units capability. Ultimately it is the pilot that is the weakest link, you could have the most advanced VF ever, but it will still appear to suck if the pilot is terrible. Conversely you could have a sucky VF that "shines" due to decent (or superior) pilots.

Doctrine might also explain why the UEEF can be shown to have technical capabilities in some areas, but doesn't leverage them to their fullest. Its like the people calling the shots aren't fully versed or prefer certain tactic/strategies even if those are ill-advised.

Well, recovering fighters with the Shadow Chronicles BSG-style hangars would be a darn sight easier. The fighters might simply fly back. Not something you'd want to do in a hurry but really no different to how the Garfish presumably retrieves its fighters.

Garfish recovery though is ultimately easier and more numerous in terms of options (compared to an Ik).

The TSC depicted recovery for the Ikazuchi at first sight you might expect to be easier, but it is a lot more complex in actuality. Its the equivalent of trying to jump a car (for ex) through an open door of a boxcar of an at speed train and land in the box car (and still have a functioning car from the landing). In comparison the QLBs of the series don't require such complex timing as they can rendezvous with the Ik (matching its vector) and then VTOL in (for a precision landing).

[Bamse]

I don't pretend to understand movement in vacuum but that box car you're refereing to really wouldn't appear to be moving would it? Match speed and tradjectory and you could slide right back into the hangar wouldn't you? No wind rushing by, no gravity to worry about (until you're in the ship anyhoo).

[ShadowLogan]

I don't pretend to understand movement in vacuum but that box car you're refereing to really wouldn't appear to be moving would it? Match speed and tradjectory and you could slide right back into the hangar wouldn't you? No wind rushing by, no gravity to worry about (until you're in the ship anyhoo).

Wind isn't the problem, to a certain extent gravity isn't the issue either.

The problems are:
-that for the Alpha to land in the Hangar it has to approach perpendicular to the Ikazuchi's flight path. I'm not saying it can not be done as depicted, but it would be one of the more complex recovery options given the relative (high) velocities depicted (at low enough velocity I wouldn't have a problem).
-(at least for the Alpha version of) the Shadow Fighter has NO VTOL Engine, meaning it has to rely on its G or B modes for such activities, something the animation doesn't support happening
-the Alphas are supposed to have severely short legs in space*, this type of launch/recovery is going to be more propulsive intensive due to the perpendicular nature than if they had launched in-line (like a Garfish, Tri-star, Tokagawa, SDF-1/carriers class ships). Basically this means that the Alphas short legs in space, just got shorter (especially if you plan to recover). While catapults and arresting cables can help give the Alpha some of that energy back at launch/recovery it will still pay a penalty

Now I will say there are ways they could have depicted the Ik/Alpha launch/recovery that wouldn't generate issues, or nearly as many. But the one they used "looks cool", but is also the more demanding option than the other more practical choices they could have taken.

*Seto and I have had several discussions in the past on the matter which boil down to Infopeia/AotSC-type source statements on the Alpha say X, but the animation depictions (especially in TSC) point in the other direction.

[Jefffar]

In space all the alpha has to do is match speed and course with the Ikazuchi while alongside, then apply light thrust towards the Ika to close the gap.

[Seto Kaiba]

Which makes a certain amount of sense, but if you are able to salvage items with superior performance to what you can build "new" why scrap the "old"?

Naturally... though one has to wonder why they'd apparently scrap fully functional Zentradi ships for their reactors and fold systems? Maybe they were just too protoculture-intensive for the UEEF to keep using.

I'm not sure if we can say that about UEDF/UEEF ships though. Remember that we have a statement that they are basically set for another round if it is the Zentreadi.

The question would be whether they were truly prepared for another Zentradi attack, or simply believed they were... the UEDF was, officially and in the RPG, using third-rate equipment and its command staff were running on a heady combination of ignorance and arrogance. I guess it could be explained that the UEDF was expecting to only run into at most a handful of Zentradi ships instead of a fleet since the Grand Fleet was gone, and were assuming quantity would have a quality all its own.

Oddly, the Ikazuchi-class itself arguably represents humanity adopting Zentradi tactics. Battleships with minimal anti-air defenses that rely on mecha for protection.

The UEEF ships are likely on par with UEDF, though for whatever reason they are don't employ the best operations approach.

That's debatable... though one could easily argue that the UEDF and UEEF ships are on par with each other, but not with any of their foes.

Several reasons come easily to mind:
-Environmental Impact. Earth was still recovering from the RoD (in RT), and the Hives are more likely to be situated in habitual zones (who knows what environmental impact destroying Reflex Furnaces would cause)
-Human shields. While not applicable to all Hive locations, there may have been sizeable human populations nearby (or even believed).
-Protoculture availability. The use of bombardment weapons could be too PC intensive for the UEEF to support if it didn't work (in TSC they are left with a 1year supply, and that probably assumes a certain level of use).
-Invid Barriers. We know that Reflex Point has one (and are shown a similar barrier guarding an entranceway), so it might be that Zentreadi weapons aren't up to the task since they had to bring in (new) specialized weapons to poke holes in the barrier (weapons that might not have the range yet to be effective).

I'm not sure environmental impact would be a factor, since Breetai demonstrated the ability to conduct surgically precise bombardments on targets smaller than Reflex Point with minimal collateral damage all the way from lunar orbit.

Reflex Point isn't near any settlements that we know of, and it was their sole target, so that would greatly limit the energy requirement and minimize the possibility for accidental fratricide. Pretty sure that barrier isn't up all the time either, so assuming that it could withstand the strength of the weapons they'd just have to pick a time when the barrier was down and open fire.

Any way you shake it, it's gotta be less resource-intensive than sending dozens or hundreds of ships and their crews to get minced every few years.

I'd probably also add that I have have noticed the Zentreadi in a few episodes, as a background filler, appear to have N-S missiles as part of their fleet (I know I've mentioned it in the past, complete with timecodes, but I don't recall them). So they could actually be shown to have Zentreadi weapons (and some GCM designs can be taken to have a heavy SDF:M inspiration in places).

Unlikely... if the neutron-s missiles were Zentradi weapons, Exedore would've known about them as he was their resident expert. He didn't know what they were until it was too late, implying he didn't recognize them at all.

This though comes down to doctrine vs capability. For whatever reason the UEEF doctrine does not emphasize their pilots to leverage their units capability. Ultimately it is the pilot that is the weakest link, you could have the most advanced VF ever, but it will still appear to suck if the pilot is terrible. Conversely you could have a sucky VF that "shines" due to decent (or superior) pilots.

Based on Tommy's comments and efforts to "Fix" the Alpha, I think your examples would probably officially fall into the latter category... an indifferent/overspecialized VF that shines with a handful of highly skilled pilots at the stick.

Well, recovering fighters with the Shadow Chronicles BSG-style hangars would be a darn sight easier. The fighters might simply fly back. Not something you'd want to do in a hurry but really no different to how the Garfish presumably retrieves its fighters.

Quite the opposite, really... it would be very difficult and very dangerous to attempt to fly back into one of those. Crashes would be frequent, and nigh-inevitable unless the landing were perfectly executed.

The catapult tubes are very, VERY narrow... so much so that the Alpha just barely fits into them when it's perfectly aligned for launch. Their profile is hexagonal, at their widest point they're just barely wide enough for the Alpha's wingspan. Unless the returning Alpha were aligned perfectly, coming in with wingtips exactly level to the widest part of the tube and perfectly perpendicular to the ship's course with velocities matched exactly, it would be practically guaranteed to collide with one of the sides of the tube. Best case would be having a wingtip ground out against the side and the nose smashing into the wall at a diagonal, blocking the tube. The tolerances for a landing like that are minimal, with no margin for error. A fraction of a degree of course, or any sudden slight change in velocity and you're impacting on the side of the tunnel or even the side of the ship.

Compared to that, the Garfish's accommodations are downright spacious.

I don't pretend to understand movement in vacuum but that box car you're refereing to really wouldn't appear to be moving would it? Match speed and tradjectory and you could slide right back into the hangar wouldn't you? No wind rushing by, no gravity to worry about (until you're in the ship anyhoo).

The problem, as noted above, is one of precision... because the launch tubes are so small and so narrow, the difference between landing the fighter safely and crashing into the side of the tube or the side of the ship is a matter of only a couple dozen centimeters in any direction, or just a tiny fraction of a degree in approach angle. It's practically in trick shot territory... like trying to throw a baseball from your car into a neighboring car at speed and land it in the cupholder without hitting the side. It's theoretically possible, but it's a long way from simple and repeatable.

If anything, the alleged bow door on the Ikazuchi would be better served as a means to recover launched aircraft... it'd be wide enough for them to have a tolerable safety margin, and they could land in G or B configurations.

[ShadowLogan]

Naturally... though one has to wonder why they'd apparently scrap fully functional Zentradi ships for their reactors and fold systems? Maybe they were just too protoculture-intensive for the UEEF to keep using.

There is the PC angle, there is the need to retrofit those ships for micronian/human crews, I wouldn't rule out some desire to not be mistaken as Zentreadi on sight, possibility over estimating remaining functional Zentreadi ships (as viewers), etc. And there might not be a single reason either, but a combination of them.

The question would be whether they were truly prepared for another Zentradi attack, or simply believed they were...

That is possible, but two reasons lead me to suspect they really are:
1. They do have a wealth of Zentreadi technical information to base that assessment on. So unless the Zentreadi start developing new technologies in the past 15years well above and beyond what the ASC knew about, they have the capability of being prepared for another Zentreadi attack up to some level (probably not Imperial-class Fleet scale, let alone Grand Fleet).

2. This is coming from Emerson. Arguably one of the more level headed people on the ASC command staff, someone who does appear to collect data in formulating assessments and responses (when allowed), maybe even to the point of over doing it. He also isn't one to waste men.

3. If we go by the infopedia we have a similar statement in the Tri-star entry (see below) which would add another reason

That's debatable... though one could easily argue that the UEDF and UEEF ships are on par with each other, but not with any of their foes.

But if the UEDF and UEEF are on par, and the UEDF claims to be ready to be "set" for Zentreadi then logically the UEEF would also. IINM even the Tri-star entry in the old Infopedia has the view that "the Tristar would have easily held its own against the far larger vessels of the alien giants", and the UEEF/REF is identified to use Tri-Stars as squadron-leaders of vessels in the Infopedia entry.

Unlikely... if the neutron-s missiles were Zentradi weapons, Exedore would've known about them as he was their resident expert. He didn't know what they were until it was too late, implying he didn't recognize them at all.

Don't get me wrong, I know it doesn't work in the Yune-verse because of Prelude, but if Yune-verse stories ever get removed (or relegated to an AU) it would be an option.

If anything, the alleged bow door on the Ikazuchi would be better served as a means to recover launched aircraft... it'd be wide enough for them to have a tolerable safety margin, and they could land in G or B configurations.

I agree, the only other place on the Ikazuchi capable of potential recovery (and requires internal transfer) would the mid-ship hangar bay (labelled lineart in AotSC for oversized craft), but that one you still have the problematic perpendicular approach angle with the MSHB. The bow door would also be better to launch aircraft to since they don't have to waste propulsion range to turn into the Ik's flight path like they do on the side facing bays.

The only other option, at this point fan-invention, would have to be some type of recovery trapeze that deploys out of the Ik that a parallel Alpha connects to and then is retracted in. But we don't have any evidence this can even be supported by the Ik (no doors, no "trapeze") like some Macross products (IIRC DYRL and/or Mac2 use the reverse to launch from certain vessels)

In space all the alpha has to do is match speed and course with the Ikazuchi while alongside, then apply light thrust towards the Ika to close the gap.

At the most basic level this is true, but the Alpha isn't shown to be able to "side step" like that what you are implying. The Series version of Alpha recovery isn't at issue for me, the unit has to "land" in Battloid to re-enter the QLB (it could even land on the hull and walk into the bay). TSC version...

This also doesn't consider the size and location of the perceived launch/recovery tubes on the TSC version. It would also seem to fly in the face of the notion the Alpha is supposed to have "short legs in space", yet when operating from an Ik. it uses one of the most propulsive energy demanding operations for launch and recovery (which isn't shown).

[Seto Kaiba]

That is possible, but two reasons lead me to suspect they really are:
1. They do have a wealth of Zentreadi technical information to base that assessment on. So unless the Zentreadi start developing new technologies in the past 15years well above and beyond what the ASC knew about, they have the capability of being prepared for another Zentreadi attack up to some level (probably not Imperial-class Fleet scale, let alone Grand Fleet).

That's why I suspect the notion that they're ready for another Zentradi attack is misleading... they know from Exedore that the Zentradi are all but wiped out, and the only thing they're likely to encounter might be a few stragglers who could be overpowered with inferior ships using the same numerical superiority tactics that are the UEEF's stock in trade. They're ready for what they'd be able to reasonably expect from what's left of the Zentradi, not what the Zentradi could bring when they were still a functioning military.

2. This is coming from Emerson. Arguably one of the more level headed people on the ASC command staff, someone who does appear to collect data in formulating assessments and responses (when allowed), maybe even to the point of over doing it. He also isn't one to waste men.

Granted, General Emerson is the token One Sane Man in the UEDF brass... but it may be explained away as simply as I did above.

But if the UEDF and UEEF are on par, and the UEDF claims to be ready to be "set" for Zentreadi then logically the UEEF would also. IINM even the Tri-star entry in the old Infopedia has the view that "the Tristar would have easily held its own against the far larger vessels of the alien giants", and the UEEF/REF is identified to use Tri-Stars as squadron-leaders of vessels in the Infopedia entry.

In the context I discussed above, I would believe it... but the UEDF and UEEF ships and equipment never display a level of capability anywhere close to the Zentradi's, and the UEDF got clobbered by a much smaller, inexperienced, and less capable military force fielded by the Robotech Masters that wasn't even really trying.

Don't get me wrong, I know it doesn't work in the Yune-verse because of Prelude, but if Yune-verse stories ever get removed (or relegated to an AU) it would be an option.

The only even remotely likely outcome that would see the Yune materials get tossed would be a ground-up reboot prompted by a live-action movie... which would also toss the neutron-s missiles and everything else from the "original 85" for copyright reasons. With animated Robotech dead on arrival with the stealth cancellation of Shadow Rising and the very public failure and cancellation of the Robotech Academy Kickstarter, and the proposed live-action movie still just a proposal that was never likely to be actioned after a string of high-profile box office failures by anime adaptations like Speed Racer, Dragonball, and now Ghost in the Shell, separating comic book artist Tommy Yune from the brand is unlikely to ever happen.

I agree, the only other place on the Ikazuchi capable of potential recovery (and requires internal transfer) would the mid-ship hangar bay (labelled lineart in AotSC for oversized craft), but that one you still have the problematic perpendicular approach angle with the MSHB. The bow door would also be better to launch aircraft to since they don't have to waste propulsion range to turn into the Ik's flight path like they do on the side facing bays.

Especially since the recovery would happen inside the ship's artificial gravity field, so they could just put the gear down and cruise in until the artificial gravity pulled them to the deck and onto an arresting wire. (the way recovery worked on the Prometheus.)

The only other option, at this point fan-invention, would have to be some type of recovery trapeze that deploys out of the Ik that a parallel Alpha connects to and then is retracted in. But we don't have any evidence this can even be supported by the Ik (no doors, no "trapeze") like some Macross products (IIRC DYRL and/or Mac2 use the reverse to launch from certain vessels)

The "recovery trapeze" approach may work for the pre-retrofit model, given that the machinery for it would fit neatly into the spacers between columns of Alphas.