Scorcerous Universities

Aku-Arkaine · Unread post by **Aku-Arkaine** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:20 am

I've been thinking of building a set of schools like in The Magicians for my Nightbane world. The mages you see in the books would be hedge witches by this definition. These university schooled mages would be better skilled (they have an undergrad degree), would have a greater versatility of magic available to them to start (having a large library available), and would probably have a little more P.P.E. (the advantage of being schooled in such a way as to make the most of your potential). I don't want super mages; what I want is a wizard that clearly would start out superior, but in the long run would balance out.

I see these universities as a place for the elite of magical society. They would be the go to person for esoteric knowledge, or for hard to find ingredients that the common mage would have difficulty obtaining. They would kinda fill the place of Alchemists in PFRPG. They would be the source of snobbish wizard NPCs that could backup their superior attitude with low level wizard PCs, giving the PC a rival that they would strive to eventually overcome.

Such places would have been targeted by the Nightlords on Dark Day, but they being well hidden and defended, would have survived their efforts. These universities could prove to be safe havens for PCs that have earned the trust of a headmaster or staff member. I also see them as not just a product of western society, but as places within all major first world nations. Nations would have their own traditions based in the culture from which they originate. It would be too hard to hide such a place in most third world countries, though there surely would be a few second world countries with institutions like this. As large as the U.S. is there may be competing schools that try the poach students form one another.

There are a lot of possibilities for magical universities in Nightbane, and I guess I'm just trying to see what other people out there see.

This would be my idea for the base O.C.C.

University Mage O.C.C.

Alignment Restrictions: None.
Attribute Requirements: None. A high M.E. is preferred.
O.C.C. Bonus: P.P.E. 2D4x10+20+P.E. +2D6 P.P.E. per additional level.

O.C.C. SKILLS
Understand the Principles of Magic (same as scorcerer)
Research (+25%)
Scorcerous Proficiencies: 3
Scorcerous Limitations: 3

Other Skills: Pick 4 Skill Programs at +20% to all skills.

Secondary Skills: Select any 10 other skills with no bonuses. May
select two additional at levels 4, 7, and 12.

Abilities:

1. Astral Projection: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

2. Familiar Link: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

3. Sense Enchantment: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

4. Sense Supernatural Evil: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

5. Sense Magic: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

6. Special Skills of Magical Lore and Knowledge: Same as Mystic
Study (HU 2nd Edition)

7. Magic Combat & Bonuses: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

8. Learning New Spells: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition),
though always roll on the shortcut table at each new level.
This represent the player having the resources of a university
alumni with easy access to the library there.

9. Magical Area of Specialization: Choose a specialty area (i.e.
Astral, Fleshsculpting, Elemental, etc.) as your Post-Graduate
focus. You get access to this spell list and the unique
abilities of the class.

10 Initial Spell Knowledge: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

Standard Equipment: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

Experience Table: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

EDIT: Post was reported as a violation of the rules for conversion. It was decided that, while the author did site a specific inspiration, the concept of magical schools is hardly unique to that source ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_f ... ic_schools ) so it can be considered a common element of the genre.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:36 pm

Unless this is intended to be a mega hero (in the form of a modified form of the dual class one) in which case it will need to pick (or be assigned) an Achilles heel (but does not get the other mega hero upgrades like supernatural strength, or mega powers, or the like)...
...I would, personally think it will need a couple tweaks.

There are 3 Main issues.
The first is that by getting 4 skill programs at +20% it is getting a better education than a Mystic Study character who rolled up a top notch collage education themselves. That is because the Mystic Study character, while getting 4 programs has to trade one of them for their vast arcane training.

The second is a product of the first in that power #6 ends up being vastly more powerful in Nightbane than in Heroes Unlimited. There is no "in game" effect of this power in HU as the skills don't exist unless the GM imports them...
...But Nightbane has, just off the top of my head Lore: Astral; Demons and Monsters; Dreamstream; Faction (unspecific) Factions( Specific There are currently no less than 15 of these!); Geomancy or Lines of Power; Magic; Mythology; Nightbane; Nightlands; Psychic; Religion; Vampires;
For 27+ more skills. (as I said this is a flaw of the Mystic Study class as well, but its not nearly as big a deal in HU)

And then for icing the character gets free access to the secret, school only spells, of a second O.C.C.?

If your not looking for a superior mage your going to need to tone this down significantly otherwise this guy is going to pretty much make any other magic user more or less obsolete.

13eowulf · Unread post by **13eowulf** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:29 pm

So if I understand this you took the Mystic Study from HU2, locked it at the Bachelor Degree education level so you didnt have to roll for education, and then removed the "having to give up the one skill package to be a mage" balancing factor.
Then you added more skills, and built in Scorcerous Proficiencies.
Then you built in a multi-class section without the penalties of multi-classing.
But even though you added all of this you made sure that the experience chart wouldnt change.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:I don't want super mages

That is obviously false.
This is quite literally "Mystic Study + all the stuff I want to add it it, and a removal of the penalties I dont like"
I mean, Nightbane doesnt even use skill packages, makes what this is all the more obvious.

drewkitty ~..~ · Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:33 pm

The problem with having a University/collage in the NB setting is that the school would be one of the major targets the nightlords would infiltrate to take over.
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You wrote the char template up as a Power Category. Why did you call it a class?
-------
class "bonus"? why is the PPE stat listed here? are you intending that the "2D4x10+20+P.E. +2D6 P.P.E" be stacked on top of the racial PPE?

If it just the PPE of the char template…..then it should be listed as below.

P.P.E.: 2D4x10+20+P.E. +2D6 P.P.E. per additional level.
-------
Magic Proficiencies & Limitations should be listed in the template abilities and you need to define how the prof & limitations are selected. I would also give these as an option for the player to select for their char instead of something all of these get.
-------
Template skills: as said before, you just wrote this as if it is a power cat. rather then writing it up as a class. Rewrite as a class or change the char template to be a power cat for HU and limit the ed rolls to the higher ed results.
------
Abilities:
aahh…it becomes apparent why it was written up as a power cat.
------
9 magic specialization: this would count as one of the magic prof as per existing magic prof text. This should be optional and limited to exclude magic spec. that are not intuitive magics such as Chaos magic (as per the kid wizard casting rules) and elemental magic and Laser & spacial magic; and native to the setting such as temporal magic and nature magic; and magics that require special connection to an elemental force like Mirror magic or elemental magic.
the specilized magic spell would take up spell slots normally from the char's total spell slots.
-----
As a class it should get a standard set of equipment, as a power cat you need to add in how much starting money the char gets. so they can buy their starting equipment from that money.
*************************************************************************************************

What I can see is that this is just a Mystic Study variant…
OR…
…it is an attempt to updated MS Power Cat. by adding in the PoM skill and the magic prof.&lim. into the text.

[might come back to revise this but the dog needs to go outside]

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:48 pm

Having given the matter a bit of thought I think that the idea is sound. A magical University would be pretty interesting and could be pulled off in several ways (Astral domains come to mind right off the bat for instance).

A few ways to make this work a bit better in Nightbane though...
1) instead of skill packages pick a (small) number of skill options for the character as their "Occ" or "Base" skills. When picking these skills I would focus on academic skills...something like 2 languages (one dead), 3 lores of choice, one technical skill, one science skill, advanced mathematics.... something like that
2) then pick your "field of study" and give them a set of skills in that field
for this I would say something like "pick four skills that make up a scholastic discipline with in the university."

3) for Sorcerous proficiencies I would strongly urge that they be required to take the "Mystic Lineage" and "Group Casting" proficiencies as these basically sum up the kind of thing that a formal, collective magical university would represent. I would suggest that for Limitations that the GM pick one (or two) limitations that define the different campuses. So one campus might be renowned for its Bloodmages, Another might turn out potent Nightmages and so on.

4-6 secondary skills would be good to represent that they wont have many hobbies, and instead will be studying full time.

I would then, instead of giving them access to a second OCC, let them pick a 'field of study' to which they get a bonus (or a reduced penalty) to convert those spells to useable invocations.

The result will be a mage that is focused heavily on their skills and academics, and that has as one of their core assets the university and its alumni.

Aku-Arkaine · Unread post by **Aku-Arkaine** » Mon May 01, 2017 12:48 am

Nice criticism, some harsh and some constructive. I put the class together in twenty minutes from a template and hadn't revisited it before posting it. I did forget about having to give up a skill program for the power category, so that would right off drop some skills right there. Let me go though my thinking step by step with some of the revisions suggested.

University Mage O.C.C. -- With the layout being close to the Arcanist from BTS1, I see no problem with calling this an O.C.C.

Alignment Restrictions: None.
Attribute Requirements: None. A high M.E. is preferred.
O.C.C. Bonus: None

O.C.C. SKILLS -- The O.C.C. skills are one of the skill programs now
Understand the Principles of Magic (same as scorcerer)
Research (+25%)
Scorcerous Proficiencies: 3 -- Mystic Lineage is definitely one of these, and I like the idea of making cooperative casting another. This would still give them choice of one for personalization. These are here because they are part of what represents the way the mage was trained. If the character doesn't need three to fulfill their role then drop them. A GM always has final call.
Scorcerous Limitations: 3 -- I also like the idea of these being based on the school you come from. Just make two GM choice and one player choice.

Other Skills: Pick 2 Skill Programs at +20% to all skills. -- These would all be your undergrad from before being recruited into a magical grad program. Note the character only gets the bachelor bonus even though they are actually a doctorate education wise.

Secondary Skills: Select any 10 other skills with no bonuses. May select two additional at levels 4, 7, and 12. -- This is just the number of secondary skills given by the book for the class this is based on. I see no reason to change it.

Abilities:

1. Astral Projection: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

2. Familiar Link: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

3. Sense Enchantment: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

4. Sense Supernatural Evil: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

5. Sense Magic: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

6. Special Skills of Magical Lore and Knowledge: Same as Mystic
Study (HU 2nd Edition) -- I fail to see this as unbalancing, as this is part of the reason the character is giving up their fourth skill program.

7. Magic Combat & Bonuses: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

8. Learning New Spells: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition),
though always roll on the shortcut table at each new level.
This represent the player having the resources of a university
alumni with easy access to the library there.

9. Magical Area of Specialization: Choose a specialty area (i.e.
Astral, Fleshsculpting, Elemental, etc.) as your Post-Graduate
focus. You get access to this spell list. The unique
abilities of the class may be bought for two spells or secondary skills each.
Note that the P.P.E. of a class is NOT a unique ability. -- I want to keep the post-grad specialty. This is the main advantage that they get over a standard sorcerer as I see this class. Limiting them to those native to the setting makes sense, but allow this to be altered by the GM. I can see where giving them the unique abilities without a price is unfair, so I added the buy in. Giving them access to the spell list though is not. It is just a wider range of invocations they can pick from. They are also not getting access to an entire second O.C.C., just the spell list and a few abilities.

10. Initial Spell Knowledge: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

11. P.P.E. 2D4x10+20+P.E. +2D6 P.P.E. per additional level. -- moved to here. Also no, this is not on top of racial P.P.E. The character gets the P.P.E. from the class and that's it.

Standard Equipment: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

Experience Table: Same as Nightbane Sorcerer (Nightbane) -- Changed to the higher experience table to adjust for the post-grad specialty.

-- I don't see this, after a little more adjustments to work out the bugs, as being overpowered as a class. What I do see it as is a wizard that can hand an equal level sorcerer their ass till about 5th or 6th level. They are supposed to be advantaged over low level spell casters, but not insurmountably so. With the way that Palladium classes are mostly designed to move from setting to setting with little modification, I don't see this as a big leap. Also, and I want to stress this, I designed this class as an NPC only class, just like the Alchemist in PF. I personally don't see any players getting access to it.

I also acknowledge that the nightlords would set these as a major target. I just see them as being too well protected for them to have fallen. Centuries of wards, protections, secrecy, and illusions to hide the schools has paid dividends.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Mon May 01, 2017 7:29 am

Really not finding all those sorcerous limitations acceptable, you have a formalized education that somehow inflicts not just one but THREE deficiencies on the students. Their education to improve their magical knowledge actually inflicts crippling penalties onto them instead.

Aku-Arkaine · Unread post by **Aku-Arkaine** » Mon May 01, 2017 1:53 pm

Nightmask wrote:Really not finding all those sorcerous limitations acceptable, you have a formalized education that somehow inflicts not just one but THREE deficiencies on the students. Their education to improve their magical knowledge actually inflicts crippling penalties onto them instead.

TtGD states that proficiencies/limitations are a one for one trade off. I see your point, I'm just following the rulebook.

drewkitty ~..~ · Mon May 01, 2017 2:04 pm

My main criticism of this char template still stands.
There is a problem that there are no skill programs in the NB setting so there are no skill programs for the player to select from. This is the main reason that I said that the skills section needs to be rewritten if you want this to be a Character Class type char template for the nightbane setting.
NB is a CC setting, so look at other CC settings like Rifts, PF, RT, for magic CCs to model your CC after. BTS is not a CC setting, it is a power cat setting. Yes, I am looking past the ""Label"" and looking at the mechanics. Yes, I know a lot of people here dislike me doing that and saying so. But the truth is the truth.

As is, it this does not fit into the char creation mechanics of the NB setting.

There are only four settings that use skill programs: HU, BTS, SF, and N&S.

#9: If this is a post grad item then you need to add a level at which it can be taken.
Or to say if they don't take the specialization what bonus the char gets. More spells, higher spell str, ????, something? Yah, not all players will want a specialization.
The relevant canon text about a char gaining such specialization is on page 24 of through the glass darkly, fourth paragraph of the magic prof. text.

And as I see it *** would be an ether or spells or abilities. Unless you spend another magic prof. to gain the other.

There also should be a racial limitation of only humans, or text that says that non-human chars have to conform to the canon text about how many magic prof they can start with.

Concluding….If the skill section is not rewritten (and the abilities section filled in in detail) it is unusable with the NB setting books because incompatibility issues. In other words, a player can't use this char template to create a character with just having the NB books.

As it is, it is still a modified MS power cat.

Nightmask wrote:Really not finding all those sorcerous limitations acceptable, you have a formalized education that somehow inflicts not just one but THREE deficiencies on the students. Their education to improve their magical knowledge actually inflicts crippling penalties onto them instead.

Which is one of the reasons I said to make the magic prof./lim. optional.

Aku-Arkaine · Unread post by **Aku-Arkaine** » Mon May 01, 2017 4:42 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:My main criticism of this char template still stands.
There is a problem that there are no skill programs in the NB setting so there are no skill programs for the player to select from. This is the main reason that I said that the skills section needs to be rewritten if you want this to be a Character Class type char template for the nightbane setting.
NB is a CC setting, so look at other CC settings like Rifts, PF, RT, for magic CCs to model your CC after. BTS is not a CC setting, it is a power cat setting. Yes, I am looking past the ""Label"" and looking at the mechanics. Yes, I know a lot of people here dislike me doing that and saying so. But the truth is the truth.

As is, it this does not fit into the char creation mechanics of the NB setting.

There are only four settings that use skill programs: HU, BTS, SF, and N&S.

#9: If this is a post grad item then you need to add a level at which it can be taken.
Or to say if they don't take the specialization what bonus the char gets. More spells, higher spell str, ????, something? Yah, not all players will want a specialization.
The relevant canon text about a char gaining such specialization is on page 24 of through the glass darkly, fourth paragraph of the magic prof. text.

And as I see it *** would be an ether or spells or abilities. Unless you spend another magic prof. to gain the other.

There also should be a racial limitation of only humans, or text that says that non-human chars have to conform to the canon text about how many magic prof they can start with.

Concluding….If the skill section is not rewritten (and the abilities section filled in in detail) it is unusable with the NB setting books because incompatibility issues. In other words, a player can't use this char template to create a character with just having the NB books.

As it is, it is still a modified MS power cat.
Nightmask wrote:Really not finding all those sorcerous limitations acceptable, you have a formalized education that somehow inflicts not just one but THREE deficiencies on the students. Their education to improve their magical knowledge actually inflicts crippling penalties onto them instead.

Which is one of the reasons I said to make the magic prof./lim. optional.

#9 is there from level 1 because the character has Graduated with their Doctorate in Thaumaturgy (or whatever else you want to call it) at level 1. This specialization is what they studied for their dissertation.

As for the skill programs, it is easy enough to rule that they get 8 O.C.C. Related Skills instead of 2 skill programs. It fulfills the same thing without offending sticklers for the power cat/class argument. Just note that I see each setting as completely cross-compatible, and have no prejudice on this topic. To me it is a tomato/tamahto kinda thing. I see the point you're making though. I can say from my point of view that I have never gamed with anyone since NB came out that didn't combine it with BTS1 and N&S. Also, the everyman skills of Basic Math, Pilot Auto, Read/Write Native, and Speak Native would need to be added to O.C.C. Skills.

The race thing...I'm not sure of any race besides doppelgangers and nightbane beyond humans that can LEARN magic. It seems to be and innate thing to most R.C.C.s in NB. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this. A nightbane would probably need to sacrifice a skill program/4 O.C.C. Related skills to do this, due to their divided time in mastering their morphus. Limiting the class to humans, or maybe the rare doppleganger, makes sense.

The proficiencies/limitations stay because this is absolutely how I would run it. You want to make it optional, then go for it. That being said, the specializations and limitations come from the method by which they are schooled. Some people do things a certain way, even though there may be other, easier ways to do it, just because that was the way they learned it. This is very much a case of that. Mystical Lineage is pretty much written into the class by default though.

drewkitty ~..~ · Mon May 01, 2017 7:02 pm

#9…..And what about those chars that Do Not want to specialize in anything. What are the bonuses for them?

Skills: easier to write up the char template correctly the 1st time so there is no need for "rulings" on half baked char templates.
You wrote a power cat char template. That is nothing like a Character Class.If you don't understand the difference then you need to go examine the basic formate of NB CCs.

As it is it is not a ether a CC nor a PC, nor is it even a BTS CC. It is a conglomeration of a random game mechanics that you are insisting is a CC even after you have been informed that it needs to be rewritten so it conforms to the formate that CCs share.

Racial limitations: Nightbane do not have to "... mastering their morphus." So there isn't any loosing any skills due to being a NB.
It sounds like you are just responding off the cuff without reviewing the relevant text in TtgD?
I was talking about was the limitation about how many magic prof.&lim. a NB can have at level 1.
page 24 of through the glass darkly, second paragraph of the magic prof. text.

All you need to do is open up the NB MB and look at the char classes as examples of character classes and their formats.

This is not a tomato to tomahto situation. This is Fuchsia being called Blue.
(Blue-->OCC, and Red-->power cat.)

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Mon May 01, 2017 7:33 pm

Aku-Arkaine wrote:Nice criticism, some harsh and some constructive. I put the class together in twenty minutes from a template and hadn't revisited it before posting it. I did forget about having to give up a skill program for the power category, so that would right off drop some skills right there. Let me go though my thinking step by step with some of the revisions suggested.

I'll give a few more ideas here if you don't mind.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:University Mage O.C.C. -- With the layout being close to the Arcanist from BTS1, I see no problem with calling this an O.C.C.

Its an O.C.C. if you call it an O.C.C. the writer is not wrong.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:Alignment Restrictions: None.
Attribute Requirements: None. A high M.E. is preferred.
O.C.C. Bonus: None

O.C.C. SKILLS -- The O.C.C. skills are one of the skill programs now
Understand the Principles of Magic (same as scorcerer)
Research (+25%)
Scorcerous Proficiencies: 3 -- Mystic Lineage is definitely one of these, and I like the idea of making cooperative casting another. This would still give them choice of one for personalization. These are here because they are part of what represents the way the mage was trained. If the character doesn't need three to fulfill their role then drop them. A GM always has final call.
Scorcerous Limitations: 3 -- I also like the idea of these being based on the school you come from. Just make two GM choice and one player choice.

I was thinking on this and came to an idea...
Try this
Sorcerous Proficiencies: The University Graduate has undergone specialized and formal training. As such they all start with the equivalent of Mystic Lineage and can cooperatively cast with anyone who has gone to the same university. The advantage of their deep regimented training shows in that they all only start with one Sorcerous limitation (often something like Bloodmage, Ritual Mage, Nightmage, or the like. It must be something involving their casting form!) However, as this limitation is inherent in their casting methodology it can never be bought off!
They may, at their option take one (1) additional Proficiency and Limitation as well following the normal rules.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:Other Skills: Pick 2 Skill Programs at +20% to all skills. -- These would all be your undergrad from before being recruited into a magical grad program. Note the character only gets the bachelor bonus even though they are actually a doctorate education wise.

This works...
though I would make it more clear with something like Pick 8 skills at +20%. They must all be reasonably related to your undergrad focus (this prevents the combat wombats from taking physical program twice or the like)

Aku-Arkaine wrote:Secondary Skills: Select any 10 other skills with no bonuses. May select two additional at levels 4, 7, and 12. -- This is just the number of secondary skills given by the book for the class this is based on. I see no reason to change it.

The reason I see to change it is that they are getting "more bang for their buck".
I would drop it down a bit to around 6. Especially if you go with the proficiency option I have above.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:Abilities:

1. Astral Projection: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

This one is just basically a spell, no big deal

Aku-Arkaine wrote:2. Familiar Link: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

again this is basically just a spell, not a big deal.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:3. Sense Enchantment: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

4. Sense Supernatural Evil: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

5. Sense Magic: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

These three though are pretty iffy powers.
They work great in Heroes Unlimited and 1st ed Beyond the Supernatural where magic and curses and the like are extraordinarily rare and the ability to detect them is likewise rare and not unbalancing.
But in Nightbane?
They become some of the premier mystics on the planet. Able to instantly detect any Nightlord infiltrator if they get with in 90' of them! They have a chance to identify anyone under mind control or enchantment and passively detect the use of magic (and technically Nightbane).
I would suggest that these three powers need to go.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:6. Special Skills of Magical Lore and Knowledge: Same as Mystic
Study (HU 2nd Edition) -- I fail to see this as unbalancing, as this is part of the reason the character is giving up their fourth skill program.

As long as it is just those six skills it should be fine. Though this again pushes their skill totals up a lot.
I believe I was making a mistake on the issue and confusing them with something else. My mistake

Aku-Arkaine wrote:7. Magic Combat & Bonuses: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

Makes sense

Aku-Arkaine wrote:8. Learning New Spells: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition),
though always roll on the shortcut table at each new level.
This represent the player having the resources of a university
alumni with easy access to the library there.

It also means that they will get vastly more spells than any other magic using class in the game, and those spells will often be of much more power. This is not an issue at all in a game like Heroes Unlimited where there aren't any other sources of spells, and the number of mages is so small that it is quite possible to go entire campaigns with out meeting another friendly mage... But in Nightbane mages are a core part of the game and most groups have one or two. There are entire factions based around them!.
Every other class in the game is limited to getting one new spell at their level and that new spell must be their level or lower.
This character already has a ton of advantages from their university ties. If they want more spells they can go, in character, and bargain for them or trade or take classes... but it seems unfair to tell other mages "well sorry, your occult group for some reason wont teach you spells... but his just loads him up"
I would highly recommend that they get the normal 1 spell per level of their level or less.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:9. Magical Area of Specialization: Choose a specialty area (i.e.
Astral, Fleshsculpting, Elemental, etc.) as your Post-Graduate
focus. You get access to this spell list. The unique
abilities of the class may be bought for two spells or secondary skills each.
Note that the P.P.E. of a class is NOT a unique ability. -- I want to keep the post-grad specialty. This is the main advantage that they get over a standard sorcerer as I see this class. Limiting them to those native to the setting makes sense, but allow this to be altered by the GM. I can see where giving them the unique abilities without a price is unfair, so I added the buy in. Giving them access to the spell list though is not. It is just a wider range of invocations they can pick from. They are also not getting access to an entire second O.C.C., just the spell list and a few abilities.

Those abilities though are the whole reason to PLAY that class.
It seems horribly unfair to anyone that wants to play one of those classes (and in the process put up with all their classes limitations and restrictions) if someone else can just cherry pick the cool powers and spells AND play wizard who is already better than every other mage in the game.
As I said before, if you really want to let them dabble in other classes, I would highly advise that it simply be that they can convert those spells to invocations. Heck just waive the "converted spells cost double for non-members of the class" penalty and they are already going to be vastly better than anyone else (other than a full specialist) at their chosen class

Aku-Arkaine wrote:10. Initial Spell Knowledge: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

Again, this is vastly more and better spells than anyone in the Nightbane world can ever hope to get.
Litterally!
Every other O.C.C. has to wait until 10th level to get a level 10 spell, unless they manage to do the years of research, or convince someone to give them the amazingly rare knowledge...
...and these guys can just start with up to 8 of them?

Aku-Arkaine wrote:11. P.P.E. 2D4x10+20+P.E. +2D6 P.P.E. per additional level. -- moved to here. Also no, this is not on top of racial P.P.E. The character gets the P.P.E. from the class and that's it.

I would advise that they get 1d6x10+PE with +2d6/Level... just like Sorcerers. If these are not meant to be super mages, then they should not have better PPE than regular mages.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:Standard Equipment: Same as Mystic Study (HU 2nd Edition)

I would advise that they use the Nightbane Sorcerer equipment unless you are letting everyone else use those rules. They are much more generous with money and possessions and either everyone or no one should use them.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:Experience Table: Same as Nightbane Sorcerer (Nightbane) -- Changed to the higher experience table to adjust for the post-grad specialty.

The XP increase is a good move yes.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:-- I don't see this, after a little more adjustments to work out the bugs, as being overpowered as a class. What I do see it as is a wizard that can hand an equal level sorcerer their ass till about 5th or 6th level. They are supposed to be advantaged over low level spell casters, but not insurmountably so.

The problem is that as written they will always be 5-10 levels above the power curve... No other class will ever "catch up" as the University mage will always simply out pace (sometimes vastly) anyone else.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:With the way that Palladium classes are mostly designed to move from setting to setting with little modification, I don't see this as a big leap.

True they do. But some things convert over better than others. I could just bring a godling or Mega-Hero over to Nightbane with no conversion. that doesn't mean they will fit in though. Especially if I am trying to make them "native"

Aku-Arkaine wrote:Also, and I want to stress this, I designed this class as an NPC only class, just like the Alchemist in PF. I personally don't see any players getting access to it.

Well if its an NPC "class" then you don't really need to bother detailing it out to much.
Just let them have what ever spells, abilities and skill at what ever levels they need for the plot and move on.
Just understand that your Players though are going to be looking at these guys and going "Man they get all the good stuff, why am I even bothering to play my mage." Because these guys will firmly relegate every other mage in the setting to being Junior Varsity while they get to be the Pros.

Aku-Arkaine wrote:I also acknowledge that the nightlords would set these as a major target. I just see them as being too well protected for them to have fallen. Centuries of wards, protections, secrecy, and illusions to hide the schools has paid dividends.

That's all up to how you want to run your setting there.
(honestly for me I would have the 'Campus" be in a heavily defended astral domain and the portals (which are moved regularly) in secret locations that are defended to a fair-the-well. But that's just me)

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Mon May 01, 2017 8:47 pm

Aku-Arkaine wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Really not finding all those sorcerous limitations acceptable, you have a formalized education that somehow inflicts not just one but THREE deficiencies on the students. Their education to improve their magical knowledge actually inflicts crippling penalties onto them instead.

TtGD states that proficiencies/limitations are a one for one trade off. I see your point, I'm just following the rulebook.

Not quite, since for one you can buy off limitations with secondary skills and it doesn't actually say 'for every sorcerous proficiency you must have one limitation'. I don't believe characters can start with more than one sorcerous proficiency either, only more than one limitation. So you can certainly start with a sorcerous proficiency and not have a limitation to go along with it.

13eowulf · Unread post by **13eowulf** » Mon May 01, 2017 9:07 pm

Because the layout was bothering me I redid it for you.
This is what (I think) you were going for initially. It really just is the information provided, in the standard OCC layout, with some modifications per various rules and mechanics and clarifications.
This is not what I would do, nor does it take into account much of the recent discussion, just trying to help you out with the layout.

Spoiler:

13eowulf · Unread post by **13eowulf** » Mon May 01, 2017 9:17 pm

Nightmask wrote:
Aku-Arkaine wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Really not finding all those sorcerous limitations acceptable, you have a formalized education that somehow inflicts not just one but THREE deficiencies on the students. Their education to improve their magical knowledge actually inflicts crippling penalties onto them instead.

TtGD states that proficiencies/limitations are a one for one trade off. I see your point, I'm just following the rulebook.

Not quite, since for one you can buy off limitations with secondary skills and it doesn't actually say 'for every sorcerous proficiency you must have one limitation'. I don't believe characters can start with more than one sorcerous proficiency either, only more than one limitation. So you can certainly start with a sorcerous proficiency and not have a limitation to go along with it.

TTGD page 24 states the following

As a rule, human sorcerers should have no more than a maximum of four (1D4?) Sorcerous Proficiencies; other practitioners of magic (Fleshsculptor, Cybermage, etc.), no more than tow; Nightbane sorcerers should have no more than one; and Acolytes and parapsychologists no more than two.

It also states that when taken at level one they can be taken in place of secondary skills, but that they can also be acquired in place of OCC Related skills during level ups.

TTGD page 27 states the following

For every Sorcerous Proficiency, the character should have a Sorcerous Limitation or Weakness

(Italicized text is in the book, not added by me)
It does later say that as a character grows in experience a limitation may be bought off in place of a new skill, but it is explicit about this happening on level up, not at level 1.
It also offers that since not all experience is constructive one can gain additional limitations an levels 3, 6, 9, & 12 and in doing so gain an additional secondary skill. This later part is presented as optional.

thorr-kan · Unread post by **thorr-kan** » Mon May 01, 2017 11:21 pm

Honestly, I'm not seeing it. I think the OCC you're trying to make is too powerful for Nightbane. It's more in line with the Wizard from PFRPG or HU. If that's what you're looking for, you're spot on.

But I think the Sorcerer OCC already fills the niche you're looking at.

13eowulf · Unread post by **13eowulf** » Mon May 01, 2017 11:30 pm

Since the formatting is already done... This is an alternative "quick-y" version I did up after dinner.

Spoiler:

Aku-Arkaine · Unread post by **Aku-Arkaine** » Tue May 02, 2017 1:03 pm

I really like 13eowulf's version. It has a better balance than mine and looks more like an original class than a quick conversion (which is what mine was). Bravo

13eowulf · Unread post by **13eowulf** » Tue May 02, 2017 1:08 pm

Aku-Arkaine wrote:I really like 13eowulf's version. It has a better balance than mine and looks more like an original class than a quick conversion (which is what mine was). Bravo

It isnt that different at all from what you were suggesting. Most of the changes are due to items in Nightbane being available to all mages, like the familiar, or available as spells instead of a special ability.
Everything else is presentation.

drewkitty ~..~ · Tue May 02, 2017 2:36 pm

13eowulf wrote:Since the formatting is already done... This is an alternative "quick-y" version I did up after dinner.
University Mage O.C.C.
…big snip.

Looking at this I see…
(a) Mystic Lineage Sorcerous Proficiency (TtGD) w/a lim. of choice.
(b) magic school specialization prof. (as per the text in paragraph 4 of the magic prof text in TtGD)
(d) another magic specialization. (R30)
and (e) two Magic Focuses (R30)
That is five magic prof. from #9 and #10 and not counting any facility gained magic prof.
And only one limitation required in the text and that one is chosen by the player.

EDIT: two magic prof. counted.

#10 needs some words that show that the player has to choose between one prof (b), (d),(e) or (f)(translation spec.) magic prof.

NB magic users have a higher level ups then non-magic using NBs. So…"…as other magic using nightbane."

typo: h2h: not--> no.
NB h2h text: suggested alt text "….and are kept separate from the Morphus' combat abilities.)"

Polaroid instant camera ….*chuckles*…nah nah just found it funny. *smirks*
(actually instant photography is making a comeback.)

The formate for a NB OCC is correct. And once the noted problems are fixed is real good.
I would of liked to have seen a 'no spec' option that didn't involve having to gain a prof. (&lim). Extra spells maybe? *shrugs*

--------------------------------------------------
MIoHL's….people might want to look at the different "group creation tables" (spy group in N&S, super group in HU, merc group/circus group in Rifts) and the write up of the tribes in the "Children of the Moon" were-person article in R4&R5 before writing up different facilities. To get a idea of possibilities.
(I think there is a magic guild group table somewhere in the rifters somewhere but I don't know where off the top of the head.

drewkitty ~..~ · Tue May 02, 2017 3:09 pm

eliakon wrote:
Aku-Arkaine wrote:University Mage O.C.C. -- With the layout being close to the Arcanist from BTS1, I see no problem with calling this an O.C.C.

Its an O.C.C. if you call it an O.C.C. the writer is not wrong.

You might say I disagree with your statement eli.
Even the canon text gets this step wrong. With Psychic Char Classes mislabeled "officially" as RCC's and then as OCCs in rifts. And Races mislabeled and Racial Char Classes.
No, I am not starting an argument, I am stating that not everyone here agrees with your statement eli. And WHY.

The concept for the char template was good but the execution it was found lacking. Thus my props for it to be rewritten.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Tue May 02, 2017 7:44 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Aku-Arkaine wrote:University Mage O.C.C. -- With the layout being close to the Arcanist from BTS1, I see no problem with calling this an O.C.C.

Its an O.C.C. if you call it an O.C.C. the writer is not wrong.

You might say I disagree with your statement eli.
Even the canon text gets this step wrong. With Psychic Char Classes mislabeled "officially" as RCC's and then as OCCs in rifts. And Races mislabeled and Racial Char Classes.
No, I am not starting an argument, I am stating that not everyone here agrees with your statement eli. And WHY.

The concept for the char template was good but the execution it was found lacking. Thus my props for it to be rewritten.

Sorry...
But it has no psychic powers so it can't be a P.C.C.
Its not in H.U. so its not a Power Category.
Its not for a specific race so its not an R.C.C.
thus if the writer says its an O.C.C. then, it is an O.C.C.
To claim otherwise is to literally claim that an author is wrong about their own writing and that you know better then they do about their own writing!
As that would be vastly insulting not to mention the absolute height of hubris I assumed that you did not mean to say that and was pointing it out.

drewkitty ~..~ · Tue May 02, 2017 8:51 pm

eliakon wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Aku-Arkaine wrote:University Mage O.C.C. -- With the layout being close to the Arcanist from BTS1, I see no problem with calling this an O.C.C.

Its an O.C.C. if you call it an O.C.C. the writer is not wrong.

You might say I disagree with your statement eli.
Even the canon text gets this step wrong. With Psychic Char Classes mislabeled "officially" as RCC's and then as OCCs in rifts. And Races mislabeled and Racial Char Classes.
No, I am not starting an argument, I am stating that not everyone here agrees with your statement eli. And WHY.

The concept for the char template was good but the execution it was found lacking. Thus my props for it to be rewritten.

Sorry...
But it has no psychic powers so it can't be a P.C.C.
Its not in H.U. so its not a Power Category.
Its not for a specific race so its not an R.C.C.
thus if the writer says its an O.C.C. then, it is an O.C.C.
To claim otherwise is to literally claim that an author is wrong about their own writing and that you know better then they do about their own writing!
As that would be vastly insulting not to mention the absolute height of hubris I assumed that you did not mean to say that and was pointing it out.

Then you read my post wrong and went off on your high horse and ranted.

In responc to your ranting post.
(A) Since the char template presented in the OP was not in the CC formate it can not a CC. So it is not a CC. Not a OCC, nor a PCC, not even an RCC.
(that is was compaired to a non-canon char template has no bearing on whether or not it is a CC.)

(B) It was not posted in the power cat formate ether. Even though that char template formate is the closest to. So it is not a power cat.

(C) It is not in the BTS2 PCC format ether. So it is not a BTS char template.

(D) SF format?….nope.
(E) ATB format?…nope.

It is not in any canon char template formats.
So it can not BE any of them.

Thus everything you said in your post is moot.

-------
And 13 did rewrite it into the current CC format. And it got critiqued. And had prompts for rewrites.

13eowulf · Unread post by **13eowulf** » Wed May 03, 2017 12:20 am

13eowulf wrote:Since the formatting is already done... This is an alternative "quick-y" version I did up after dinner.
University Mage O.C.C.

Just a note, bolded and underlined for emphasis, this was a quick version I threw together to demonstrate what can be done putting in some thought, research, and common sense. (Writing this response took longer, lol.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Looking at this I see…
(a) Mystic Lineage Sorcerous Proficiency (TtGD) w/a lim. of choice.
(b) magic school specialization prof. (as per the text in paragraph 4 of the magic prof text in TtGD)
(d) another magic specialization. (R30)
and (e) two Magic Focuses (R30)
That is five magic prof. from #9 and #10 and not counting any facility gained magic prof.
And only one limitation required in the text and that one is chosen by the player.

#10 needs some words that show that the player has to choose between one prof (b), (d),(e) or (f)(translation spec.) magic prof.

Regarding (b): While the text in TTGD and the Text in #10 both use the word specialize I don't take that usage in TTGD to mean a school or category of magic that isn't normally available (or normally available without penalty). As such I wouldn't, and didn't, count it as or towards the Sorcerous Proficiency max (I worked with the 'max 4 in mind, with the thought process being that if an institution pushes the Proficiency number above 2 then Nightbanes cannot attend, as they are capped at two, not 4. But this was a quick version, so I didn't spell that out, instead I said "provided the character does not exceed the normal maximum after choosing an institution of learning", which made such obvious to me.

Regarding (d) & (e): The Rifter 30 Magic Specialization and Magic Focus, to me, are separate from Magic Proficiencies. They have built in limitations or penalties, and different skill requirements, and operate differently. THAT said, I did forget to reduce the OCC Related Skills to 6 when I went with that option. But I don't feel these count towards the total Proficiency limit. (Point of fact I personally see the Magic Focus as closer to WPs for magic then anything else, but that is personal opinion).

The text for #10 isn't intended to give the player a choice of the options as you broke them down, that is why it doesn't read that way, and is not in need of clarification for such, as that is not its intent. The player (Or GM creating an NPC) can choose between a school or category of magic that they would not otherwise have normal access to, and can choose spells from it, and cast them without penalty (including inflated PPE costs) OR they can be the Translation specialist. In either case they get both the Magic Specialization and 2 Magic Focus.

I will note that they don't gain the special abilities of the OCC normally associated with that specialty school, nor any additional spells, just access to a second 'library' of spells to choose from.

Regarding the number of Proficiencies, this OCC grants 1, and the rest are up to choice of institution, and GM fiat. It is my reccomendation that institutions dont grant more than 2, for a total of 3 after an institution is chosen, but I left that open for other GMs or creators.

I will note that if you personally (or anyone) decides that access to a school of magic, or the magic specializations, or magic focus, count as Proficiencies that is your prerogative, but it is also personal opinion, and not what is written. I put this together using what is written, and as written those items are not Proficiencies (though they are similar, just not the same as or equal to).

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:NB magic users have a higher level ups then non-magic using NBs. So…"…as other magic using nightbane."

Too true, however in this case the intent is for non-nightbane members of the OCC to use the listed experience table, as it is higher then the normal Sorcerer XP table.
Actual NB being this OCC should probably see the XP for each level increased by like 15% or some such. As this was a quick-version I didnt put more thought into it then choosing the higher table for non-NB who take this OCC over the Sorcerer. Didnt feel like searching for, or creating, and alternative XP table for NB for this OCC.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:typo: h2h: not--> no.
NB h2h text: suggested alt text "….and are kept separate from the Morphus' combat abilities.)"

Thanks for that, will fix the typo after I post this.
I am not sure that text is need, under the Nightbane section it is quite clear that Morphus and Facade hand to hand should be kept separate, stating Facade only should be more than sufficient. I like to give people a little more credit then that. But that is me, the eternal optimist.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Polaroid instant camera ….*chuckles*…nah nah just found it funny. *smirks*
(actually instant photography is making a comeback.)

Why mess with the classic trope of equipment being from the 80s. I had one as a kid (also it is explicitly listed in HU2 basic equipment, lol).

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The formate for a NB OCC is correct. And once the noted problems are fixed is real good.
I would of liked to have seen a 'no spec' option that didn't involve having to gain a prof. (&lim). Extra spells maybe? *shrugs*

The way I see it, if you dont want to specialize be a translator, or the normal Sorceror. The point of post-graduate studies is to specialize after you gain your general degree, which is where (I think) the OP was going with it.
That said, I dont see why others cant come up with other Post-Grad schools of study. I am just not gonna do it, heh.

--------------------------------------------------

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:MIoHL's….people might want to look at the different "group creation tables" (spy group in N&S, super group in HU, merc group/circus group in Rifts) and the write up of the tribes in the "Children of the Moon" were-person article in R4&R5 before writing up different facilities. To get a idea of possibilities.
(I think there is a magic guild group table somewhere in the rifters somewhere but I don't know where off the top of the head.

There are many such creation tables. I once tried to amalgamate them all in to one ginormous organization creation table, with all the different options. That project is stuck in limbo as I keep finding more options in different books and Rifters.
Back on topic, One could create an entirely new (more accurately 90% copy/pasted) group creation table for Institutes of Magical Higher Learning, or some such, or one could just create a new table to add to a pre-existing set of tables. But that was more than I was willing to put into it, this is the 'quick version'.
But those options are available sure, and can be combined with the options I lead into, or instead of, or some hybrid. Anyone who wants to take that idea and run with it, more power to you.

glitterboy2098 · Wed May 03, 2017 3:19 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The problem with having a University/collage in the NB setting is that the school would be one of the major targets the nightlords would infiltrate to take over.

they would have to operate 'underground', though possibly within existing Universities. rather like the Midnight Squad in City of Heroes. they operated out of the Midnighter Club, which had it's main centers at University branches (though there was an extra dimensional section as well that each of the separate club locations linked to)

the main difference between such groups and the current mage set up would be the degree of organization.. if most mages are self taught or learned from a master/apprentice set up, a more university focused group would likely be more systematic, with classes and teachers to educate more people at once (though likely still small groups in the 6-8 area.. magic would require a rather more hands on and closely monitored methodology, which doesn't work for big classes well), as well as ways to ensure that what practitioner discovered in terms of new knowledge, spells, etc, would be tested and then integrated into the curriculum. including refresher courses and other such updates for those who already have graduated.

if they operate within existing universities (probably passing themselves off as a club to the outside world) they could also take advantage of the non-magical curriculum. for example, requiring their members to take Latin or whatever language most spells are in. and classes in say, comparative mythology, or whatever else might be required to help understand the magical side of the world.

drewkitty ~..~ · Wed May 03, 2017 6:31 pm

13eowulf wrote:The text for #10 isn't intended to give the player a choice of the options as you broke them down, that is why it doesn't read that way, and is not in need of clarification for such, as that is not its intent. The player (Or GM creating an NPC) can choose between a school or category of magic that they would not otherwise have normal access to, and can choose spells from it, and cast them without penalty (including inflated PPE costs) OR they can be the Translation specialist. In either case they get both the Magic Specialization and 2 Magic Focus.

I would prepose that you move some of the text about. Trading the place of the Rifter 30 things and the spell translation text. This is so the main text is about 'this or that' format, and the posibility of magic spec & magic focus can be persued also if the GM permits them is the note.

(note in the rifter magic prof there is one prof that is a mystic focus 'item' and things got mixed up in the head due to all the talk about the magic prof.)

13eowulf wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:NB magic users have a higher level ups then non-magic using NBs. So…"…as other magic using nightbane."

Too true, however in this case the intent is for non-nightbane members of the OCC to use the listed experience table, as it is higher then the normal Sorcerer XP table.
Actual NB being this OCC should probably see the XP for each level increased by like 15% or some such. As this was a quick-version I didnt put more thought into it then choosing the higher table for non-NB who take this OCC over the Sorcerer. Didnt feel like searching for, or creating, and alternative XP table for NB for this OCC.

was just point it out so you could change the wording to something like the 'other nightbane magic users'. This also conforms the text to the NBST that defines NB as just empowered humans. (yes yes, I know they don't use those exact words but that is the core meaning of the text.)

13eowulf wrote:--------------------------------------------------
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:MIoHL's….people might want to look at the different "group creation tables" (spy group in N&S, super group in HU, merc group/circus group in Rifts) and the write up of the tribes in the "Children of the Moon" were-person article in R4&R5 before writing up different facilities. To get a idea of possibilities.
(I think there is a magic guild group table somewhere in the rifters somewhere but I don't know where off the top of the head.

There are many such creation tables. I once tried to amalgamate them all in to one ginormous organization creation table, with all the different options. That project is stuck in limbo as I keep finding more options in different books and Rifters.
Back on topic, One could create an entirely new (more accurately 90% copy/pasted) group creation table for Institutes of Magical Higher Learning, or some such, or one could just create a new table to add to a pre-existing set of tables. But that was more than I was willing to put into it, this is the 'quick version'.
But those options are available sure, and can be combined with the options I lead into, or instead of, or some hybrid. Anyone who wants to take that idea and run with it, more power to you.

My thought originated in suggesting looking at the CotM clan bonuses…..the Tables part was more an after thought that got stuck into the text.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Wed May 03, 2017 11:31 pm

13eowulf wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Aku-Arkaine wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Really not finding all those sorcerous limitations acceptable, you have a formalized education that somehow inflicts not just one but THREE deficiencies on the students. Their education to improve their magical knowledge actually inflicts crippling penalties onto them instead.

TtGD states that proficiencies/limitations are a one for one trade off. I see your point, I'm just following the rulebook.

Not quite, since for one you can buy off limitations with secondary skills and it doesn't actually say 'for every sorcerous proficiency you must have one limitation'. I don't believe characters can start with more than one sorcerous proficiency either, only more than one limitation. So you can certainly start with a sorcerous proficiency and not have a limitation to go along with it.

TTGD page 24 states the following
As a rule, human sorcerers should have no more than a maximum of four (1D4?) Sorcerous Proficiencies; other practitioners of magic (Fleshsculptor, Cybermage, etc.), no more than tow; Nightbane sorcerers should have no more than one; and Acolytes and parapsychologists no more than two.

It also states that when taken at level one they can be taken in place of secondary skills, but that they can also be acquired in place of OCC Related skills during level ups.

TTGD page 27 states the following
For every Sorcerous Proficiency, the character should have a Sorcerous Limitation or Weakness

(Italicized text is in the book, not added by me)
It does later say that as a character grows in experience a limitation may be bought off in place of a new skill, but it is explicit about this happening on level up, not at level 1.
It also offers that since not all experience is constructive one can gain additional limitations an levels 3, 6, 9, & 12 and in doing so gain an additional secondary skill. This later part is presented as optional.

Thing is 'should' doesn't mean 'required'. You 'should' eat healthy but you aren't 'required' to eat healthy. You're also creating a homebrew OCC which by necessity isn't going to be following rules since just existing it's outside the rules, so being able to get a sorcerous proficiency without a penalty or limitation would be a perk for this formalized, college-education style magical education. It's superior by not having those problems.

drewkitty ~..~ · Wed May 03, 2017 11:44 pm

13eowulf wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The formate for a NB OCC is correct. And once the noted problems are fixed is real good.
I would of liked to have seen a 'no spec' option that didn't involve having to gain a prof. (&lim). Extra spells maybe? *shrugs*

The way I see it, if you don't want to specialize be a translator, or the normal Sorcerer. The point of post-graduate studies is to specialize after you gain your general degree, which is where (I think) the OP was going with it.
That said, I don't see why others cant come up with other Post-Grad schools of study. I am just not gonna do it, heh.

So what would the CC look like if the char didn't go to grad school? Just omit the specialization section (#10)?

13eowulf · Unread post by **13eowulf** » Thu May 04, 2017 12:59 am

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
13eowulf wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The formate for a NB OCC is correct. And once the noted problems are fixed is real good.
I would of liked to have seen a 'no spec' option that didn't involve having to gain a prof. (&lim). Extra spells maybe? *shrugs*

The way I see it, if you don't want to specialize be a translator, or the normal Sorcerer. The point of post-graduate studies is to specialize after you gain your general degree, which is where (I think) the OP was going with it.
That said, I don't see why others cant come up with other Post-Grad schools of study. I am just not gonna do it, heh.

So what would the CC look like if the char didn't go to grad school?

The Sorcerer OCC, it would look exactly, in every-way, like the sorcerer (or Nightbane Sorcerer if a Nightbane) OCC, they would be indistinguishable from each other, as if there was no difference at all...

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Just omit the specialization section (#10)?

Nope, there would be no Number 10, because they would be the Sorcerer OCC.

EDIT: Also, I just dont really want to do it, and this is an easy way out, if someone wants to write up such an option in place of the Translator or Special School options I am not opposed, just not willing to try and find such an option that balances with the others.

13eowulf · Unread post by **13eowulf** » Thu May 04, 2017 1:16 am

Nightmask wrote:
13eowulf wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Aku-Arkaine wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Really not finding all those sorcerous limitations acceptable, you have a formalized education that somehow inflicts not just one but THREE deficiencies on the students. Their education to improve their magical knowledge actually inflicts crippling penalties onto them instead.

TtGD states that proficiencies/limitations are a one for one trade off. I see your point, I'm just following the rulebook.

Not quite, since for one you can buy off limitations with secondary skills and it doesn't actually say 'for every sorcerous proficiency you must have one limitation'. I don't believe characters can start with more than one sorcerous proficiency either, only more than one limitation. So you can certainly start with a sorcerous proficiency and not have a limitation to go along with it.

TTGD page 24 states the following
As a rule, human sorcerers should have no more than a maximum of four (1D4?) Sorcerous Proficiencies; other practitioners of magic (Fleshsculptor, Cybermage, etc.), no more than tow; Nightbane sorcerers should have no more than one; and Acolytes and parapsychologists no more than two.

It also states that when taken at level one they can be taken in place of secondary skills, but that they can also be acquired in place of OCC Related skills during level ups.

TTGD page 27 states the following
For every Sorcerous Proficiency, the character should have a Sorcerous Limitation or Weakness

(Italicized text is in the book, not added by me)
It does later say that as a character grows in experience a limitation may be bought off in place of a new skill, but it is explicit about this happening on level up, not at level 1.
It also offers that since not all experience is constructive one can gain additional limitations an levels 3, 6, 9, & 12 and in doing so gain an additional secondary skill. This later part is presented as optional.

Thing is 'should' doesn't mean 'required'. You 'should' eat healthy but you aren't 'required' to eat healthy. You're also creating a homebrew OCC which by necessity isn't going to be following rules since just existing it's outside the rules, so being able to get a sorcerous proficiency without a penalty or limitation would be a perk for this formalized, college-education style magical education. It's superior by not having those problems.

All I can picture with this response is a toddler stamping their foot saying "I dont wanna and you cant make me".
Reasonable people can apply reason and common sense behind what is written, and its intent, which is really quite obvious.

If you dont want to do that, that's up to you. This OCC was OP do begin with, even with the Limitations, and trying to get them removed from someone else's work affirms an obvious truth.
For the record, it wouldnt be a perk, it would be an overpowering change that is unnecessary, unneeded, and robs the class of many potential storylines and role play options.

It strikes me that given your line of argument here that you wouldnt (to the best of your ability, in my opinion based on discussions here and other threads) ever use voluntary limitations & weaknesses. As a GM that is your right to do, as player, that is your prerogative to try and get your GM to agree to. But that is up to you and your GM/Players, I will not accommodate such a notion of removing weaknesses & limitations from an already higher powered class that sorely needs them.

Yes it is a Homebrew OCC, but that has no bearing on this, if not the book limitations, than I would have added other ones, as a balancing factor.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Thu May 04, 2017 5:51 am

I think you'd be better served just having a package that's used to represent a formalized education at a magical school rather than trying to create an entirely new OCC. They'd get a few bonuses to relevant skills (like Principles of Magic), a sorcerous proficiency sans limitation (representation the superior nature of learning from a formalized setting that can properly guide them), standardized spell list availability and where applicable a bonus spell of every level that they start with to start. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.

13eowulf · Unread post by **13eowulf** » Thu May 04, 2017 8:34 am

Nightmask wrote:I think you'd be better served just having a package that's used to represent a formalized education at a magical school rather than trying to create an entirely new OCC. They'd get a few bonuses to relevant skills (like Principles of Magic), a sorcerous proficiency sans limitation (representation the superior nature of learning from a formalized setting that can properly guide them), standardized spell list availability and where applicable a bonus spell of every level that they start with to start. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.

Well, the single Proficiency (in my version) that is part of the OCC itself, is static, what I would prefer is to add a static limitation as it's counterpart (as eliakon suggested above), but I didnt see one that fit in TTGD, and I am not currently inclined to invent a new one, so "of choice" it is. This proficiency/limitation is about the nature of the student, that added something they have that got them to this level of education, and I feel the limitation is appropriate for that.

Now when choosing an institution of learning to attend, that can provide up to two more Proficiencies and Limitations (or only one of each, or none of each, but always in a pair).
These represent the peculiarities of that particular institution's traditions and methods. With (again as eliakon suggested, which I liked), sees some schools producing bloodmages, other nightmages, etc. These would be static across all graduates, and is perfectly representative of a formalized learning setting, all graduates on that institution have the same limitations (and proficiencies). The knowledge and abilities of #10 seem more than adequate at representing the superior nature of the learning environment.

It has been left open that some institutions might have other aspects than the Proficiencies and Limitations, I suggested an example about one that makes better charms (charms that have a 50% increase to the max bonus provided with a reduced PPE cost to create).

Standardized spell lists are boring, and there really arent that many low level spells, the variation could, in theory, represent different curriculums within the institution itself, so it fits as well.

I do like that with the idea of removing limitations rejected the position was switched to attacking the concept itself, complete with the "no need to reinvent the wheel" comment. Made me smile, good job. And there still managed to be a plug for the 'limitations are for suckers' platform, that shows dedication.

As for the idea itself, I am not the OP, I am not sure I would have gone this route. However this was what was presented, and while I may not have been favourable to the initial presentation, the OP was pretty clear where he wanted the concept to go, I just helped with that.
• Could there have been some sort of package or add-on to current OCCs rather than a new OCC? Possibly, kind of like the Nightbane Talent Shaper from Rifter... uh, I wanna say 44, dont have them in front me, or the Half-Wizard for non-mage OCCs from MOM1. Sure that could be a thing.
• Was that what the OP was looking for? Couldnt say, probably not.
• If I was tasked with coming up with such would I embrace the 'Limitations are for Suckers' platform and remove or exclude limitations while adding proficiencies? Nope, there would still be limitations.

(Not for nothing though, but I actually did include a way to buy-off the included limitation at level 1, which, to me, would also be representative of a formal education, additional training to overcome an innate limitation.)

Afterthought: In fact, here is a quick-y version of such a concept

Spoiler:

Graduate Mage O.C.C. Supplement
A Graduate Mage is a learned practitioner of magic who has undergone a more formal level of education.
In exchange for all O.C.C. Related Skills and half of the available Secondary Skills (rounded down) the Graduate Mage gains the following two abilities. Note: Intuitive spell casters, or those who have their powers granted by an external source cannot be Graduate Mages. Heroes Unlimited Note: The Mystic Study Power Category would instead have to give up a second skill package to become a Graduate Mage.
1. Sorcerous Proficiencies: The Graduate Mage starts with the Mystic Lineage Sorcerous Proficiency, and one Sorcerous Limitation or Weakness of choice. The Graduate Mage will also potentially gain additional Sorcerous Proficiencies and Limitations or Weaknesses (among other abilities) based on the institution they study at (see below). With GM permission the starting Sorcerous Limitation or Weakness may be overcome at the cost of two secondary skills at level one.
Additional Proficiencies and Limitations may be selected following the normal rules, provided the character does not exceed the normal maximum after choosing an institution of learning.
2. Post-Graduate Studies: The Graduate Mage may choose an additional school/specialty area of magic (i.e. Astral, Fleshsculpting, Mirror, Shadow, etc.) as their Post-Graduate focus. They may learn spells from this school of magic in the normal fashion, as well as choose spells from this school in place of standard invocations (provided other restrictions, such as spell level, are met). Spells are cast in the normal manner for that school, without additional penalties (such as the increase in PPE cost for some schools for non-specialists). Graduate Mages also gain a +15% bonus to converting spells of this specialty to standard invocations. In addition they may choose one area of Mystic Specialization (Rifter #30) if they so desire (mystic specialization is optional), and two Magic Focuses (also Rifter #30).
Note: Warlock Elemental Magic, and other intuitive schools of magic cannot be learned as a specialty. However instead of choosing a specialty school of magic the Mage can elect to become a spell “Translator” who specializes in developing/converting spells or coming up with variants of spells, gaining a whopping +25% to their conversion/variant roll, as well as gaining an automatic reroll on the Failed Spell table if the results of Insanity, Obsession, Phobia, or Delusions of Success are rolled (this applies only when converting a spell or modifying/varying a spell, not when creating an entirely new spell, etc.).

Magical Institutions of Higher Learning
See the University Mage OCC.

[Design Note: One may notice that the Principles of Magic skill is not included here. That is because, with the introduction of the skill as an actual skill in TTGD it does self-state that all practitioners of magic (excluding the mystic) get the skill, which makes it an automatic addition to any magic user, provided the TTGD material (or Rifter 30 material where the skill is listed and I believe makes a similar statement) without the need for it to be listed/included here.]

13eowulf · Unread post by **13eowulf** » Thu May 04, 2017 9:07 am

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
13eowulf wrote:The text for #10 isn't intended to give the player a choice of the options as you broke them down, that is why it doesn't read that way, and is not in need of clarification for such, as that is not its intent. The player (Or GM creating an NPC) can choose between a school or category of magic that they would not otherwise have normal access to, and can choose spells from it, and cast them without penalty (including inflated PPE costs) OR they can be the Translation specialist. In either case they get both the Magic Specialization and 2 Magic Focus.

I would prepose that you move some of the text about. Trading the place of the Rifter 30 things and the spell translation text. This is so the main text is about 'this or that' format, and the posibility of magic spec & magic focus can be persued also if the GM permits them is the note.

(note in the rifter magic prof there is one prof that is a mystic focus 'item' and things got mixed up in the head due to all the talk about the magic prof.)

No worries. I just went with the lengthy reply so provide some of the thought process, and to show that there was consideration.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
13eowulf wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:NB magic users have a higher level ups then non-magic using NBs. So…"…as other magic using nightbane."

Too true, however in this case the intent is for non-nightbane members of the OCC to use the listed experience table, as it is higher then the normal Sorcerer XP table.
Actual NB being this OCC should probably see the XP for each level increased by like 15% or some such. As this was a quick-version I didnt put more thought into it then choosing the higher table for non-NB who take this OCC over the Sorcerer. Didnt feel like searching for, or creating, and alternative XP table for NB for this OCC.

was just point it out so you could change the wording to something like the 'other nightbane magic users'. This also conforms the text to the NBST that defines NB as just empowered humans. (yes yes, I know they don't use those exact words but that is the core meaning of the text.)

Could always stat that Nightbane University Mages use the Mega-Hero XP table?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
13eowulf wrote:--------------------------------------------------
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:MIoHL's….people might want to look at the different "group creation tables" (spy group in N&S, super group in HU, merc group/circus group in Rifts) and the write up of the tribes in the "Children of the Moon" were-person article in R4&R5 before writing up different facilities. To get a idea of possibilities.
(I think there is a magic guild group table somewhere in the rifters somewhere but I don't know where off the top of the head.

There are many such creation tables. I once tried to amalgamate them all in to one ginormous organization creation table, with all the different options. That project is stuck in limbo as I keep finding more options in different books and Rifters.
Back on topic, One could create an entirely new (more accurately 90% copy/pasted) group creation table for Institutes of Magical Higher Learning, or some such, or one could just create a new table to add to a pre-existing set of tables. But that was more than I was willing to put into it, this is the 'quick version'.
But those options are available sure, and can be combined with the options I lead into, or instead of, or some hybrid. Anyone who wants to take that idea and run with it, more power to you.

My thought originated in suggesting looking at the CotM clan bonuses…..the Tables part was more an after thought that got stuck into the text.

Yep, and 'twas a good thought. I was agreeing with it, but I went off on tangents.

Post Script:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There are only four settings that use skill programs: HU, BTS, SF, and N&S.

I didnt notice this first time around, but there are five settings, Splicers also uses skill packages/programs. Not really relevant as no magic, but in the interests of accuracy there is that.

And now that I am typing on the subject, Robotech 2nd Ed heavily uses MOS and multiple MOS for character creation, which is essentially OCC + Skill Programs.
And Recon uses its weird MOS/Skill Program system.

And Rifts has started using the MOS system as well with the Mercenary OCC, Robot Pilot OCC, and CS Technical Officer OCC in the RUE alone...
Also I believe Dead Reign, at least in part, uses a MOS system...

So in writing this, and much to my surprise, more than half of all current Palladium systems use, at least in part, some form of skill packages, and it is creeping into the other systems as well with newer books. Huh.

drewkitty ~..~ · Thu May 04, 2017 1:06 pm

While I have the Splicers book it is not really in my head, and I don't have DR.

RT2 & RUE… yep the MOSs are sort of like skill packages. However, each set of MOSs I can think of are detailed for one or just a few military CCs.

Now taking the MOS idea and applying it to magic CCs would be a bit difficult because there are not many "skills" directly related with making magic. Thou, I can see some MagicOSs could be written up…

Artificer
potions mastery
herbalest
beast master
….
…
..

Course most of the ideas that could be used to build a MagicOS around already have a CC based on them too.

Aku-Arkaine · Unread post by **Aku-Arkaine** » Thu May 04, 2017 5:33 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:So what would the CC look like if the char didn't go to grad school? Just omit the specialization section (#10)?

My answer to this question is that it does not, 100%, happen. As conceptualized these universities only recruit grad students. If you have completed your undergrad, live in a country where they recruit, and have potential for magic, then you will probably get an invite to the entry exam. If you fail the exam then you don't get admitted. And if you had started learning magic to the point that you can cast invocations before they approach you, then they never will. At that point they consider you an amateur too dumb to not play above your level and not worth their time. These characters are doctors at level 1, putting them in their late twenties to early thirties starting out.

So this also turned into me ranting about concept as well as an answer, sorry.

drewkitty ~..~ · Thu May 04, 2017 7:05 pm

Aku-Arkaine wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:So what would the CC look like if the char didn't go to grad school? Just omit the specialization section (#10)?

My answer to this question is that it does not, 100%, happen. As conceptualized these universities only recruit grad students. If you have completed your undergrad, live in a country where they recruit, and have potential for magic, then you will probably get an invite to the entry exam. If you fail the exam then you don't get admitted. And if you had started learning magic to the point that you can cast invocations before they approach you, then they never will. At that point they consider you an amateur too dumb to not play above your level and not worth their time. These characters are doctors at level 1, putting them in their late twenties to early thirties starting out.

So this also turned into me ranting about concept as well as an answer, sorry.

That sort of does not mesh with your #9 and 13's #10 where the read that the access to specialized magic is the graduate level studies courses.
Note: yes I watch the Sci-Fi channel's 'the magicians' so I know where the concept is coming from. But I am also integrating what I know what the canon texts say about learning magic into my comments.

Taking what was said in the Mysteries of Magic 1 book if the char learns magic after becoming an adult the char is limited to the Forsaken mage OCC.

So the teaching of magic starting about the age of 18 is pushing the limits of getting a 'normal' ppe base into a student. Most times the student starts their learning in their teens, or maybe their tweens. So a Magic high school would be the norm. For learning to cast magic, and the university (if there is any) for learning past the basics or specialization.

Aku-Arkaine · Unread post by **Aku-Arkaine** » Thu May 04, 2017 10:24 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:That sort of does not mesh with your #9 and 13's #10 where the read that the access to specialized magic is the graduate level studies courses.
Note: yes I watch the Sci-Fi channel's 'the magicians' so I know where the concept is coming from. But I am also integrating what I know what the canon texts say about learning magic into my comments.

Taking what was said in the Mysteries of Magic 1 book if the char learns magic after becoming an adult the char is limited to the Forsaken mage OCC.

So the teaching of magic starting about the age of 18 is pushing the limits of getting a 'normal' ppe base into a student. Most times the student starts their learning in their teens, or maybe their tweens. So a Magic high school would be the norm. For learning to cast magic, and the university (if there is any) for learning past the basics or specialization.

We both state that it is a Post-graduate specialty, not Graduate. So I'm not sure what your argument there is unless that is the issue.

To address your second point, I was not factoring MoM1 in at all when writing this. I can rite up some justification for this, like that the person's P.P.E. was growing naturally without training because they are gifted with an untapped potential. In fact, that is what I'm going to go with for my game, but in reality I just didn't factor that in.

drewkitty ~..~ · Fri May 05, 2017 2:26 am

el, JH, HS, collage, graduate, post-grad.

Is that the order you were working off of? Or were you thinking that grad studies are the 1st 4 years of collage?

Razorwing · Unread post by **Razorwing** » Fri May 05, 2017 6:12 am

glitterboy2098 wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The problem with having a University/collage in the NB setting is that the school would be one of the major targets the nightlords would infiltrate to take over.

they would have to operate 'underground', though possibly within existing Universities. rather like the Midnight Squad in City of Heroes. they operated out of the Midnighter Club, which had it's main centers at University branches (though there was an extra dimensional section as well that each of the separate club locations linked to)

the main difference between such groups and the current mage set up would be the degree of organization.. if most mages are self taught or learned from a master/apprentice set up, a more university focused group would likely be more systematic, with classes and teachers to educate more people at once (though likely still small groups in the 6-8 area.. magic would require a rather more hands on and closely monitored methodology, which doesn't work for big classes well), as well as ways to ensure that what practitioner discovered in terms of new knowledge, spells, etc, would be tested and then integrated into the curriculum. including refresher courses and other such updates for those who already have graduated.

if they operate within existing universities (probably passing themselves off as a club to the outside world) they could also take advantage of the non-magical curriculum. for example, requiring their members to take Latin or whatever language most spells are in. and classes in say, comparative mythology, or whatever else might be required to help understand the magical side of the world.

The problem with this is that they would have had to go Underground before Dark Day... more so than the Midnight Squad had been (they may have been secluded... but they were still fairly well known in the hero, especially mystic, community). The Nightlords were able to track down and slaughter many mystic heritages that had existed before Dark Day... many of which had kept their mystic powers secret... now you want an entire school of wizards and mystics to be able to keep their existence an even greater secret than a Master/Apprentice set up?

Not going to happen.

The more people that know of something, the less secret it will be. A school of wizards is going to have multiple teachers and multiple students... not to mention others to help support both... any of which could decide to betray the entire school to the Nightlords for power that the school would deny them. Even an Astral Domain won't guarantee the safety of students or teachers... at least not forever. Nightlords have Astral Avatars and other minions that work in the Astral Plane... and even the Dreamstream... that an ambitious or frustrated student/teacher could betray the school to. The more students or teachers in the school... the greater the chance that one could betray them all.

the Nightlords are very persuasive, manipulative and aren't above torturing such information from a captured graduate... and planting a doppelganger into a school of mages isn't that difficult (and can be surprisingly hard to detect). Some Nightlords may even keep such a school around (under their control) to lure other potential wizards or mystics into a place where they can either be turned to their service or destroyed.

Simply put... schools of magic would be very hard to maintain the needed secrecy to keep them from being detected by beings as powerful (and mystically inclined) as the Nightlords.

Aku-Arkaine · Unread post by **Aku-Arkaine** » Fri May 05, 2017 5:27 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:el, JH, HS, collage, graduate, post-grad.

Is that the order you were working off of? Or were you thinking that grad studies are the 1st 4 years of collage?

You are thinking right.

Razorwing wrote:The problem with this is that they would have had to go Underground before Dark Day... more so than the Midnight Squad had been (they may have been secluded... but they were still fairly well known in the hero, especially mystic, community). The Nightlords were able to track down and slaughter many mystic heritages that had existed before Dark Day... many of which had kept their mystic powers secret... now you want an entire school of wizards and mystics to be able to keep their existence an even greater secret than a Master/Apprentice set up?

Not going to happen.

The more people that know of something, the less secret it will be. A school of wizards is going to have multiple teachers and multiple students... not to mention others to help support both... any of which could decide to betray the entire school to the Nightlords for power that the school would deny them. Even an Astral Domain won't guarantee the safety of students or teachers... at least not forever. Nightlords have Astral Avatars and other minions that work in the Astral Plane... and even the Dreamstream... that an ambitious or frustrated student/teacher could betray the school to. The more students or teachers in the school... the greater the chance that one could betray them all.

the Nightlords are very persuasive, manipulative and aren't above torturing such information from a captured graduate... and planting a doppelganger into a school of mages isn't that difficult (and can be surprisingly hard to detect). Some Nightlords may even keep such a school around (under their control) to lure other potential wizards or mystics into a place where they can either be turned to their service or destroyed.

Simply put... schools of magic would be very hard to maintain the needed secrecy to keep them from being detected by beings as powerful (and mystically inclined) as the Nightlords.

As for going underground, well they've always been underground, more so than a lot of the other magical traditions.

I picture most of these schools being in pocket dimensions, astral domains, and dream pools, yes. Even one completely located on Earth though would be very difficult to take. These are fortified targets requiring a siege to take down. Many of the mystic groups taken down by the nightlords were small and unaware about the threat. The universities have had access to the nightlands since early in their history. They were aware and they prepared for the possibility. They have siege wards and deadly protections guarding their schools. The nightlords are well aware of these schools existing, but for varying reasons have not taken them down. For some it is that the investment in resources just isn't worth it. For others it is a live and let live attitude (which at least a few nightlords would have). For the remainder it is a long term plan to infiltrate and conquer when they have more time (I don't see the nightlords as having enough control yet to spare for someone whom is going out of their way to not be a problem).

The universities are not a major source of resistance against the nightlords. They have a greater interest in preserving their knowledge and way of life than in fighting. Most are looking for ways to leave, school and all, and head to a new dimension where they can continue in peace. That said, some are actively opposing the nightlords, but they do so from the shadows. They go all out to avoid anything that leads back to their school, including suicide enchantments and killing off members too injured to continue. They have no identifying marks on their bodies and operate very much like modern special forces in the precautions they take. There are also schools that have made deals with their local nightlord. These schools, in exchange for neutrality, turn over lesser wizards (in their view) that they have no interest in, or even those that fail their entrance exams. These universities are made of humans, and just like them have both the good and the bad.

They don't really worry too much about individuals betraying them. They use binding oaths that lead to loss of life and soul for those that attempt to betray the school's interests. Torture is the same, they die before they reveal any info every time. They were prepared, and planned for nearly any eventuality. They have plans to evacuate to other schools or new pocket dimensions in the case of a successful siege, etc. The biggest concern is having a school board decide on a policy of cooperation with the nightlords. A full betrayal of any one school hasn't happened, but even a neutrallity pact like a couple have is very worrying to the others.

I totally see your point of secrecy being impossible. That is why they have a far more blatant relationship with the nightlords.

Aku-Arkaine · Unread post by **Aku-Arkaine** » Sat May 06, 2017 4:37 pm

I thought I'd post a couple of schools here as a way to keep this thread going.

The Secret Temple of Saraswati

Commonly referred to as the Saraswati School, this university is dedicated to the goddess of the same name. The school is located in a dream pool that has been stable since long before the founding of the school 300 years ago, but has two permanent, Earth bound doorways, one in India and the other in Myanmar. The university grounds were once a temple, but has since been converted and modernized. The school recruits only Hindus or those from Hindu related sects from all over India and Southeast Asia. Religion is part of the everyday life of the students, and the school emphasizes the 'fact' that all magic comes from Saraswati so students must use magic according to her dictates. The school's library is quite large, but over half the information is religious texts, though their section on dream magic is the second largest in the world, surpassed only by the Outback Institute of Dreamers. They are one of three schools that even offers dream magic as a post-graduate program.

Proficiencies: Mystical Lineage (TtGD), Artistic (TtGD)
Limitations: Unstoppable Spells (Rftr17), Granted Powers (TtGD)
Additional Skills: Lore-Religion +25%
Additional Spells or Specialty Spell Areas: Dream Magic
Additional Limitations, Weaknesses, or other Penalties: Cybermagic is not offered at this school, they teach that it is an abomination going against Saraswati. As a result, graduates from other universities whom have studied cybermagic are treated with contempt.

Akren Mountain University

Located in Canada near Prince George, British Columbia, Akren Mt is youngest magical university in the world. Established in 1977, the board and staff were all young and dissatisfied with the way things were ran at all the older, more established schools. The schools itself exists in a pocket dimension that can only be accessed either from a single point on the mountain, or by use of a bio-locked key given to each alumni, student, staff, and faculty member. The school is on the cutting edge of a new magical field called 'Techno-Wizardry' that is starting to get a lot of attention in the U.S. and Western Europe. The school actively recruits students from both the U.S. and Canada, competing with the other schools in North America. This has caused several problems for the young school with the older schools who feel they should be satisfied with just recruiting from Western Canada.

Proficiencies: Mystical Lineage (TtGD), Cast by Thought Alone (Rftr17)
Limitations: Vulnerable to Silver (TtGD), Disliked by Animal (Rftr17)
Additional Skills: None
Additional Spells or Specialty Spell Areas: Techno-wizardry
Additional Limitations, Weaknesses, or other Penalties: None

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sun May 07, 2017 7:26 am

13eowulf wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
13eowulf wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Not quite, since for one you can buy off limitations with secondary skills and it doesn't actually say 'for every sorcerous proficiency you must have one limitation'. I don't believe characters can start with more than one sorcerous proficiency either, only more than one limitation. So you can certainly start with a sorcerous proficiency and not have a limitation to go along with it.

TTGD page 24 states the following
As a rule, human sorcerers should have no more than a maximum of four (1D4?) Sorcerous Proficiencies; other practitioners of magic (Fleshsculptor, Cybermage, etc.), no more than tow; Nightbane sorcerers should have no more than one; and Acolytes and parapsychologists no more than two.

It also states that when taken at level one they can be taken in place of secondary skills, but that they can also be acquired in place of OCC Related skills during level ups.

TTGD page 27 states the following
For every Sorcerous Proficiency, the character should have a Sorcerous Limitation or Weakness

(Italicized text is in the book, not added by me)
It does later say that as a character grows in experience a limitation may be bought off in place of a new skill, but it is explicit about this happening on level up, not at level 1.
It also offers that since not all experience is constructive one can gain additional limitations an levels 3, 6, 9, & 12 and in doing so gain an additional secondary skill. This later part is presented as optional.

Thing is 'should' doesn't mean 'required'. You 'should' eat healthy but you aren't 'required' to eat healthy. You're also creating a homebrew OCC which by necessity isn't going to be following rules since just existing it's outside the rules, so being able to get a sorcerous proficiency without a penalty or limitation would be a perk for this formalized, college-education style magical education. It's superior by not having those problems.

All I can picture with this response is a toddler stamping their foot saying "I dont wanna and you cant make me".
Reasonable people can apply reason and common sense behind what is written, and its intent, which is really quite obvious.

If you dont want to do that, that's up to you. This OCC was OP do begin with, even with the Limitations, and trying to get them removed from someone else's work affirms an obvious truth.
For the record, it wouldnt be a perk, it would be an overpowering change that is unnecessary, unneeded, and robs the class of many potential storylines and role play options.

It strikes me that given your line of argument here that you wouldnt (to the best of your ability, in my opinion based on discussions here and other threads) ever use voluntary limitations & weaknesses. As a GM that is your right to do, as player, that is your prerogative to try and get your GM to agree to. But that is up to you and your GM/Players, I will not accommodate such a notion of removing weaknesses & limitations from an already higher powered class that sorely needs them.

Yes it is a Homebrew OCC, but that has no bearing on this, if not the book limitations, than I would have added other ones, as a balancing factor.

Well this was rude and completely uncalled for. You also don't define what is a 'reasonable person' or 'common sense', you want to disagree with my position that's fine but making personal attacks and trying to strawman my post as that of a toddler is totally not fine. I do not see sorcerous proficiencies as some kind of overwhelming advantage, I do not see it as necessary that you just have to have a limitation if you've got one, I'm free to do so. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that position, yours is no better than mine, they're both opinions and attacking others for having a different opinion is not acting as a reasonable person as reasonable people can disagree without such behavior.

13eowulf · Unread post by **13eowulf** » Sun May 07, 2017 12:12 pm

Nightmask wrote:
13eowulf wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
13eowulf wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Not quite, since for one you can buy off limitations with secondary skills and it doesn't actually say 'for every sorcerous proficiency you must have one limitation'. I don't believe characters can start with more than one sorcerous proficiency either, only more than one limitation. So you can certainly start with a sorcerous proficiency and not have a limitation to go along with it.

TTGD page 24 states the following
As a rule, human sorcerers should have no more than a maximum of four (1D4?) Sorcerous Proficiencies; other practitioners of magic (Fleshsculptor, Cybermage, etc.), no more than tow; Nightbane sorcerers should have no more than one; and Acolytes and parapsychologists no more than two.

It also states that when taken at level one they can be taken in place of secondary skills, but that they can also be acquired in place of OCC Related skills during level ups.

TTGD page 27 states the following
For every Sorcerous Proficiency, the character should have a Sorcerous Limitation or Weakness

(Italicized text is in the book, not added by me)
It does later say that as a character grows in experience a limitation may be bought off in place of a new skill, but it is explicit about this happening on level up, not at level 1.
It also offers that since not all experience is constructive one can gain additional limitations an levels 3, 6, 9, & 12 and in doing so gain an additional secondary skill. This later part is presented as optional.

Thing is 'should' doesn't mean 'required'. You 'should' eat healthy but you aren't 'required' to eat healthy. You're also creating a homebrew OCC which by necessity isn't going to be following rules since just existing it's outside the rules, so being able to get a sorcerous proficiency without a penalty or limitation would be a perk for this formalized, college-education style magical education. It's superior by not having those problems.

All I can picture with this response is a toddler stamping their foot saying "I dont wanna and you cant make me".
Reasonable people can apply reason and common sense behind what is written, and its intent, which is really quite obvious.

If you dont want to do that, that's up to you. This OCC was OP do begin with, even with the Limitations, and trying to get them removed from someone else's work affirms an obvious truth.
For the record, it wouldnt be a perk, it would be an overpowering change that is unnecessary, unneeded, and robs the class of many potential storylines and role play options.

It strikes me that given your line of argument here that you wouldnt (to the best of your ability, in my opinion based on discussions here and other threads) ever use voluntary limitations & weaknesses. As a GM that is your right to do, as player, that is your prerogative to try and get your GM to agree to. But that is up to you and your GM/Players, I will not accommodate such a notion of removing weaknesses & limitations from an already higher powered class that sorely needs them.

Yes it is a Homebrew OCC, but that has no bearing on this, if not the book limitations, than I would have added other ones, as a balancing factor.

Well this was rude and completely uncalled for. You also don't define what is a 'reasonable person' or 'common sense', you want to disagree with my position that's fine but making personal attacks and trying to strawman my post as that of a toddler is totally not fine. I do not see sorcerous proficiencies as some kind of overwhelming advantage, I do not see it as necessary that you just have to have a limitation if you've got one, I'm free to do so. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that position, yours is no better than mine, they're both opinions and attacking others for having a different opinion is not acting as a reasonable person as reasonable people can disagree without such behavior.

I didnt make any personal attacks. I addressed the post only. Making false accusations however IS a personal attack.
While the post conjured up such an image for me, and I decided to share that, again, it was the post I was addressing.
Regardless of that imagery though I responded to the post on its merits, not that image, the intro was simply an anecdote.
I actually repeatedly (bolded above for emphasis) acknowledged that others may and do hold a different opinion, that it is their right, and that they will act/game on those opinions. I also stated my disagreement with such a position. Attempting to present events as if I did not do that is dishonest at best. What I took issue with was your attempt to push others to conform to your opinion in their writings, particularly when they were following what is obviously laid out in the written and printed books.
Regarding 'reasonable' and 'common sense', I dont define them, the dictionary does, and I used the terms appropriately.

I also find it quite telling that you came back to respond to this post again, as subsequent to this post above you already posted a response, and that I already responded to that post.

I do however adore the attempt to vilify me.
(And I could add further amusing anecdotes about what images the internet tried-and-true "all opinions are equal and valid" argument conjures in my mind, but I wont. I do however wonder why so many people confuse the fact that being equally entitled to having an opinion with the notion that all opinions are equal).

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sun May 07, 2017 2:29 pm

While the original (and even the modified) OCC are not really of any use to me the ideas are.
I think I might use something similar to this as a sort of "package deal" template thing for a future game.
Sort of you can get all this stuff, for cheaper... but its a package all or none and then see how it goes.

drewkitty ~..~ · Sun May 07, 2017 3:43 pm

Magic prof……are at their core an option a GM can let into their game. And as such the text for them is written towards advising the GM. There is no reason to cry foul over GMs following the canon advice in this optional material.
Just bring up that the text is not written in absolutes once and step back and chill. Other people will not agree with you on this thing. So there is no need to argue.

If you want a mechanism for deciding if a char can gain a magic prof w/o also gaining a limitation a D20 roll is just fine. With the player needing a nat 20 to pick a prof w/o a lim. Just remember there is a nat 1 on the die also. :twisted:

Razorwing · Unread post by **Razorwing** » Wed May 10, 2017 1:21 am

I disagree that these schools would be difficult for the Nightlords to find and destroy... or subvert.

Most mages and mystics were already living more or less underground... at least in regards to mundane detection (from governments and such)... I can't imagine Sorcerous schools being even more hidden than this... as there would be no need to go so far underground that other mystical forces can't detect them. If you are training mages... making it impossible to find you is counter productive.

Additionally, a Mystic University will have quite a few faculty... including some that may have been removed for dabbling in darker magics. Beyond this, we are talking about dozens of students in these schools... some of which may also be tempted by dark magics. Any of these individuals could possibly attract the attention of the Nightlords... especially those who feel that they can gain power that is being withheld from them.

Beyond this... no matter where they are... Astral Domain, Dreamstream or even a pocket dimension, there are way for the Nightlords to find them. They may not be able to access them directly... but they can locate such schools and wait for an opportunity to infiltrate them.

Mystic Universities are not like factions... at least not before Dark Day. They would likely actively recruit students... possibly from actual universities... as sort of a hidden faculty within them. Since many Universities were targeted by the Nightlords... it is very possible that more than a few of these "hidden" magic schools were exposed, destroyed or taken over. Those that searched for family lines of mages for training likely were noticed by minions also searching for these targets.

Simply put... the larger a school is, the harder it will be to keep it secret... especially from beings that thrive in secrecy. How many former graduates of these schools could have been targeted by Nightlords? How many of them would try to save their lives by offering information on the schools? Keeping the secret from mundanes is easy... but from the Nightlords is much more difficult.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Wed May 10, 2017 1:45 pm

Razorwing wrote:I disagree that these schools would be difficult for the Nightlords to find and destroy... or subvert.

Most mages and mystics were already living more or less underground... at least in regards to mundane detection (from governments and such)... I can't imagine Sorcerous schools being even more hidden than this... as there would be no need to go so far underground that other mystical forces can't detect them. If you are training mages... making it impossible to find you is counter productive.

Additionally, a Mystic University will have quite a few faculty... including some that may have been removed for dabbling in darker magics. Beyond this, we are talking about dozens of students in these schools... some of which may also be tempted by dark magics. Any of these individuals could possibly attract the attention of the Nightlords... especially those who feel that they can gain power that is being withheld from them.

Beyond this... no matter where they are... Astral Domain, Dreamstream or even a pocket dimension, there are way for the Nightlords to find them. They may not be able to access them directly... but they can locate such schools and wait for an opportunity to infiltrate them.

Mystic Universities are not like factions... at least not before Dark Day. They would likely actively recruit students... possibly from actual universities... as sort of a hidden faculty within them. Since many Universities were targeted by the Nightlords... it is very possible that more than a few of these "hidden" magic schools were exposed, destroyed or taken over. Those that searched for family lines of mages for training likely were noticed by minions also searching for these targets.

Simply put... the larger a school is, the harder it will be to keep it secret... especially from beings that thrive in secrecy. How many former graduates of these schools could have been targeted by Nightlords? How many of them would try to save their lives by offering information on the schools? Keeping the secret from mundanes is easy... but from the Nightlords is much more difficult.

You don't go totally underground. You are in the magical underground first off.
Then, while you want prospective students to have heard of you, you don't want just anyone dropping by for tea. If a student wants to study at one of these then they will need to put together their 'application letter' (letters of recommend are going to be very important here!)
There will be procedures on how to submit this, which will likely vary from school to school.
Accepted students then will be allowed to study, first, at a satellite campus while on a 'probationary period'
I would also expect magically enforced oaths of loyalty and secrecy involved here

Also if there used to be say 12 schools in North America
And now there are 3 or 5
That still means the Nightlords got most of them, even if you still have three or five active ones and the former students of half a dozen or more of them running around.

And the easiest, simplest security measure I can think of is to put them in Astral Domains and have the entrance portals be mobile.
Another way would be to set up the domain to be 'restricted' (so no one can just port in)... unless they have, for example that weeks pass key, and this years school tie.
For even better security simply have your 'main campus' only accessed directly via portals in the 'satellite campuses' that are themselves shielded astral domains.

And yes the Nightlords probably DO know of them.
So what?
The Nightlords know of the various other factions. That has not prevented them from existing.
Knowing about and being able to do something about are totally different.

The Spook Squad is one of the best examples of this in fact!
All the spies and agents in the Spook Squad were members of the 'alphabet soup agencies' and it even says that many of their safe houses and supply caches were from those agencies...
...and yet even though those agencies were thoroughly infiltrated by the Nightlords, and the agents had official files and the rest...
...the Spook Squad still exists.
If they can do it, how much harder for a much smaller group that has no official paper trail, no official records?
Yes, if a Nightlord seduces one of the senior staff to the dark side then that school is likely to fall... but otherwise "The Scholam of The Snows....usually based mostly out of Ontario, Quebec, and Manitoba" is going to have to take a number on the "List of things to deal with this week....and next week doesn't look so good either can we pencil you in for next year?"

Aku-Arkaine · Unread post by **Aku-Arkaine** » Fri May 12, 2017 3:04 am

eliakon wrote:
Razorwing wrote:I disagree that these schools would be difficult for the Nightlords to find and destroy... or subvert.

Most mages and mystics were already living more or less underground... at least in regards to mundane detection (from governments and such)... I can't imagine Sorcerous schools being even more hidden than this... as there would be no need to go so far underground that other mystical forces can't detect them. If you are training mages... making it impossible to find you is counter productive.

Additionally, a Mystic University will have quite a few faculty... including some that may have been removed for dabbling in darker magics. Beyond this, we are talking about dozens of students in these schools... some of which may also be tempted by dark magics. Any of these individuals could possibly attract the attention of the Nightlords... especially those who feel that they can gain power that is being withheld from them.

Beyond this... no matter where they are... Astral Domain, Dreamstream or even a pocket dimension, there are way for the Nightlords to find them. They may not be able to access them directly... but they can locate such schools and wait for an opportunity to infiltrate them.

Mystic Universities are not like factions... at least not before Dark Day. They would likely actively recruit students... possibly from actual universities... as sort of a hidden faculty within them. Since many Universities were targeted by the Nightlords... it is very possible that more than a few of these "hidden" magic schools were exposed, destroyed or taken over. Those that searched for family lines of mages for training likely were noticed by minions also searching for these targets.

Simply put... the larger a school is, the harder it will be to keep it secret... especially from beings that thrive in secrecy. How many former graduates of these schools could have been targeted by Nightlords? How many of them would try to save their lives by offering information on the schools? Keeping the secret from mundanes is easy... but from the Nightlords is much more difficult.

You don't go totally underground. You are in the magical underground first off.
Then, while you want prospective students to have heard of you, you don't want just anyone dropping by for tea. If a student wants to study at one of these then they will need to put together their 'application letter' (letters of recommend are going to be very important here!)
There will be procedures on how to submit this, which will likely vary from school to school.
Accepted students then will be allowed to study, first, at a satellite campus while on a 'probationary period'
I would also expect magically enforced oaths of loyalty and secrecy involved here

Also if there used to be say 12 schools in North America
And now there are 3 or 5
That still means the Nightlords got most of them, even if you still have three or five active ones and the former students of half a dozen or more of them running around.

And the easiest, simplest security measure I can think of is to put them in Astral Domains and have the entrance portals be mobile.
Another way would be to set up the domain to be 'restricted' (so no one can just port in)... unless they have, for example that weeks pass key, and this years school tie.
For even better security simply have your 'main campus' only accessed directly via portals in the 'satellite campuses' that are themselves shielded astral domains.

And yes the Nightlords probably DO know of them.
So what?
The Nightlords know of the various other factions. That has not prevented them from existing.
Knowing about and being able to do something about are totally different.

The Spook Squad is one of the best examples of this in fact!
All the spies and agents in the Spook Squad were members of the 'alphabet soup agencies' and it even says that many of their safe houses and supply caches were from those agencies...
...and yet even though those agencies were thoroughly infiltrated by the Nightlords, and the agents had official files and the rest...
...the Spook Squad still exists.
If they can do it, how much harder for a much smaller group that has no official paper trail, no official records?
Yes, if a Nightlord seduces one of the senior staff to the dark side then that school is likely to fall... but otherwise "The Scholam of The Snows....usually based mostly out of Ontario, Quebec, and Manitoba" is going to have to take a number on the "List of things to deal with this week....and next week doesn't look so good either can we pencil you in for next year?"

I posted this earlier but it seems kinda burried, so here it is again

As for going underground, well they've always been underground, more so than a lot of the other magical traditions.

I picture most of these schools being in pocket dimensions, astral domains, and dream pools, yes. Even one completely located on Earth though would be very difficult to take. These are fortified targets requiring a siege to take down. Many of the mystic groups taken down by the nightlords were small and unaware about the threat. The universities have had access to the nightlands since early in their history. They were aware and they prepared for the possibility. They have siege wards and deadly protections guarding their schools. The nightlords are well aware of these schools existing, but for varying reasons have not taken them down. For some it is that the investment in resources just isn't worth it. For others it is a live and let live attitude (which at least a few nightlords would have). For the remainder it is a long term plan to infiltrate and conquer when they have more time (I don't see the nightlords as having enough control yet to spare for someone whom is going out of their way to not be a problem).

The universities are not a major source of resistance against the nightlords. They have a greater interest in preserving their knowledge and way of life than in fighting. Most are looking for ways to leave, school and all, and head to a new dimension where they can continue in peace. That said, some are actively opposing the nightlords, but they do so from the shadows. They go all out to avoid anything that leads back to their school, including suicide enchantments and killing off members too injured to continue. They have no identifying marks on their bodies and operate very much like modern special forces in the precautions they take. There are also schools that have made deals with their local nightlord. These schools, in exchange for neutrality, turn over lesser wizards (in their view) that they have no interest in, or even those that fail their entrance exams. These universities are made of humans, and just like them have both the good and the bad.

They don't really worry too much about individuals betraying them. They use binding oaths that lead to loss of life and soul for those that attempt to betray the school's interests. Torture is the same, they die before they reveal any info every time. They were prepared, and planned for nearly any eventuality. They have plans to evacuate to other schools or new pocket dimensions in the case of a successful siege, etc. The biggest concern is having a school board decide on a policy of cooperation with the nightlords. A full betrayal of any one school hasn't happened, but even a neutrallity pact like a couple have is very worrying to the others.

I totally see your point of secrecy being impossible. That is why they have a far more blatant relationship with the nightlords.

RockJock · Unread post by **RockJock** » Tue May 16, 2017 1:31 am

I love the thought of a mystical university in NB, but the setup, and situation would be different in my game. For me, the university training would be more of an add-on, or buff to the more common wizard. Maybe something along the thought process of how Temporal Warriors/Wizards compare in Rifts. Basically more time spent in the system equals more "abilities", be them spells, skills, or even levels, but the character is older. For my game I would also lean more towards the mystical schools being somehow connected to, or affiliated with a mundane school. Maybe the Skull and Crossbones at Harvard really picks new members, or a subset of new members based on magical potential. The University of Messina could train a group of religious based practitioners in a tradition going back over 500 years. You get the idea. More magic guild or society with an academic bent.