Rifts Greenland

[Natasha]

Greenland is 'only' losing about 280 gigtonnes of ice per year... compared to Antarctica's 115 gigatonnes per year.

[lather]

Whatever the case is, it's not alarmist to say the glaciers are going away.

[IronWarrior]

Ah. Greenland. The perfect staging area for........................ uh...... Vikings?

I was just thinking the same thing. With Vikings comes Valkyries. Love Valkyries and Amazons and...and...and any hot chick in chainmail. Oops too much info. Anywho, Greenland could be a nice place to do a Viking type culture along with a piracy theme. Vikings were raiders so they could possibly have access to all seaboards on the Atlantic, specifically Northern Atlantic and then there is the rivalry with the Horune and other raiders to consider not the least of which would be the Splugorth minions. Add some behind the scene assistance (manipulation) from the Asgardians and the True Atlantians and throw in Loki's faction and you got a nice setting. Just a few idea off the top of my head.

[IronWarrior]

Hmmm. Something for Greenland... Depends,are we talking about something simerlar to what it was during the time the vikings were around? Because back then you could actually GROW something there. If so well... Considering that New West has dinosaurs why not put a whole lot of Ice Age mammels there? You know, like sabertooth cats and the like but make them maga-damage so they can pose a challange to the players... Mmmm! I can tast the mastodon now... Just like mama used to make it.

Signed,
Harry Leferts

Viking run Mastodon ranches.

[Zer0 Kay]

You can look at before/after photos of Greenland and see that it isn't alarmism.
Or at some of the predictions in your list have come to pass.

You may as well try to argue that Earth is flat.

Wow that's almost as good as Godwin's Law.

Whoch predictions have come through... on time?

[Zer0 Kay]

actually even our current most pessimistic models do not have greenland having suffered much glacial loss by the 2090's. certainly not total loss. (and Greenland has seen a lot of attention over the issues due to concerns over dangerous materials which had been left there over the course of the cold war.)

and those do not account for the fact that most of Golden Age humanity evidently switches to a low carbon footprint technology base. (hyper efficiency electric drives, ultra dense electrical storage, fuelcells, compact highly efficient nuclear power, etc.) so many of the effects would have been moderated durign the golden age.

and the cataclysm, with its massive vulcanism, is a recipe for massive global cooling, something that is showcased in CE with the sudden temp drops, and in rifts with the multi-decade 'winter'. while likely a short lived phenomenon, the fact is that combined with the way most of the world has been knocked back to a per-industrial condition (and remains that way for centuries, with those areas where it was not largely retaining the low-carbon footprint technologies), suggests a world that no longer will be having to worry about global warming. at least for several more centuries beyond the PA100's.

if anything, the global volcanic winter and the resulting centuries of lower temps ought to have what melting occurred before the cataclysm largely replaced with new ice.

Good point. Forgot about the Vulcan Winter. And even if earthquakes did split glaciers tsunamis likely assisted with repairs... if it got cold enough otherwise I could also see it making it harder to glaciate with standing salt water on the surface and in crevasses

[Zer0 Kay]

Hmmm. Something for Greenland... Depends,are we talking about something simerlar to what it was during the time the vikings were around? Because back then you could actually GROW something there. If so well... Considering that New West has dinosaurs why not put a whole lot of Ice Age mammels there? You know, like sabertooth cats and the like but make them maga-damage so they can pose a challange to the players... Mmmm! I can tast the mastodon now... Just like mama used to make it.

Signed,
Harry Leferts

Viking run Mastodon ranches.

Fimbulvetr, Nidhoggr, Jormungandr and Fafnir.

[Zer0 Kay]

Whatever the case is, it's not alarmist to say the glaciers are going away.

No but it is alarmist to say that the loss of glaciers will submerge x amount of land in y number of years over and over again.

[Zer0 Kay]

Greenland is 'only' losing about 280 gigtonnes of ice per year... compared to Antarctica's 115 gigatonnes per year.

I wonder if scientists between the 1300 and 1870 blamed mankind for the global cooling.

Mankind,! first to think they mean something in the universe.

[glitterboy2098]

Hmmm. Something for Greenland... Depends,are we talking about something simerlar to what it was during the time the vikings were around? Because back then you could actually GROW something there. If so well... Considering that New West has dinosaurs why not put a whole lot of Ice Age mammels there? You know, like sabertooth cats and the like but make them maga-damage so they can pose a challange to the players... Mmmm! I can tast the mastodon now... Just like mama used to make it.

Signed,
Harry Leferts

Viking run Mastodon ranches.

not enough room. even if we assume that the strip of semi-habitable land on the south western shore becomes more habitable, it is the wrong climate and too small.

the animals you are thinking of are all dwellers of grasslands or forest. while we named the period the Ice Age after the large glaciers, those glacial regions were likely as spares of life as the current polar regions IRL. the animals we know from the period are what lived in the lands free of ice. the cooler climate resulted in more grasslands and forests and (for the most part) smaller deserts. north america looked rather like the plains of Africa, both in terms of climate (only much more lush), and in terms of biodiversity. (including things like Lions and cheetahs.)

south america at the time had much more grasslands as well (much of that has since been taken over by the jungle), which is why you got such creatures as the giant ground sloths and giant armadillos, as well as why the Smilodons did so well when they reached it (pushing out the native terror birds)

if you drop these into greenland, they will just starve to death.. or freeze.

Dinosaurs worth in the dinosaur swamp work because the swamps and forests of florida and the south are actually fairly close climate wise to many parts of the Mesozoic. and while the native plants are largely going to be wrong.. the dinosauria were adapted to eat some fairly tough and nasty plants (ferns, cycads, etc) so they should be adaptable to consuming more recent stuff. and a lot of the historical plants appear to have taken root as well, going by the dinoswamp books.

if you want to drop ice age critters somewhere, it would need to be in mainland NA or mainland europe. someplace where the local ecosystems are still at base close to what they were used to in their own times, and which have the sheer square mileage required to sustain a rich ecosystem.

[Zer0 Kay]

Hmmm. Something for Greenland... Depends,are we talking about something simerlar to what it was during the time the vikings were around? Because back then you could actually GROW something there. If so well... Considering that New West has dinosaurs why not put a whole lot of Ice Age mammels there? You know, like sabertooth cats and the like but make them maga-damage so they can pose a challange to the players... Mmmm! I can tast the mastodon now... Just like mama used to make it.

Signed,
Harry Leferts

Viking run Mastodon ranches.

not enough room. even if we assume that the strip of semi-habitable land on the south western shore becomes more habitable, it is the wrong climate and too small.

the animals you are thinking of are all dwellers of grasslands or forest. while we named the period the Ice Age after the large glaciers, those glacial regions were likely as spares of life as the current polar regions IRL. the animals we know from the period are what lived in the lands free of ice. the cooler climate resulted in more grasslands and forests and (for the most part) smaller deserts. north america looked rather like the plains of Africa, both in terms of climate (only much more lush), and in terms of biodiversity. (including things like Lions and cheetahs.)

south america at the time had much more grasslands as well (much of that has since been taken over by the jungle), which is why you got such creatures as the giant ground sloths and giant armadillos, as well as why the Smilodons did so well when they reached it (pushing out the native terror birds)

if you drop these into greenland, they will just starve to death.. or freeze.

Dinosaurs worth in the dinosaur swamp work because the swamps and forests of florida and the south are actually fairly close climate wise to many parts of the Mesozoic. and while the native plants are largely going to be wrong.. the dinosauria were adapted to eat some fairly tough and nasty plants (ferns, cycads, etc) so they should be adaptable to consuming more recent stuff. and a lot of the historical plants appear to have taken root as well, going by the dinoswamp books.

if you want to drop ice age critters somewhere, it would need to be in mainland NA or mainland europe. someplace where the local ecosystems are still at base close to what they were used to in their own times, and which have the sheer square mileage required to sustain a rich ecosystem.

Also IIRC the dinos of dino swamp are not time shifted or related to prehistoric earth dinos

[glitterboy2098]

actually it is left vague.. the "timeholes" are supposed to connect across time, space, and dimensions. so they could be actual time travelling dino's, or alternate earth equivalents, or who knows what?

my point remains. even if they can handle the climate.. there just is NOT enough SPACE to sustain a complex ecosystem on the land.

[Natasha]

Greenland is 'only' losing about 280 gigtonnes of ice per year... compared to Antarctica's 115 gigatonnes per year.

I wonder if scientists between the 1300 and 1870 blamed mankind for the global cooling.

Mankind,! first to think they mean something in the universe.

Maybe not the universe, but that's not the point. We are certainly affecting the greenhouse we live in (and in ways impossible between 1300 and 1870).

[lather]

Whatever the case is, it's not alarmist to say the glaciers are going away.

No but it is alarmist to say that the loss of glaciers will submerge x amount of land in y number of years over and over again.

You present a strange definition of alarmism..... since it's happening.

Alaskan villages have to be relocated because in a few years they'll be under sea.

And so on and so forth.

[RockJock]

Not vikings with mammoth ranches, but vikings with Glitter Mastodons from South America. 25% bigger, with hair stuff to the glitter elephants.

[boring7]

Hmmm. Something for Greenland... Depends,are we talking about something simerlar to what it was during the time the vikings were around? Because back then you could actually GROW something there. If so well... Considering that New West has dinosaurs why not put a whole lot of Ice Age mammels there? You know, like sabertooth cats and the like but make them maga-damage so they can pose a challange to the players... Mmmm! I can tast the mastodon now... Just like mama used to make it.

Signed,
Harry Leferts

Viking run Mastodon ranches.

not enough room. even if we assume that the strip of semi-habitable land on the south western shore becomes more habitable, it is the wrong climate and too small.

the animals you are thinking of are all dwellers of grasslands or forest. while we named the period the Ice Age after the large glaciers, those glacial regions were likely as spares of life as the current polar regions IRL. the animals we know from the period are what lived in the lands free of ice. the cooler climate resulted in more grasslands and forests and (for the most part) smaller deserts. north america looked rather like the plains of Africa, both in terms of climate (only much more lush), and in terms of biodiversity. (including things like Lions and cheetahs.)

south america at the time had much more grasslands as well (much of that has since been taken over by the jungle), which is why you got such creatures as the giant ground sloths and giant armadillos, as well as why the Smilodons did so well when they reached it (pushing out the native terror birds)

if you drop these into greenland, they will just starve to death.. or freeze.

Dinosaurs worth in the dinosaur swamp work because the swamps and forests of florida and the south are actually fairly close climate wise to many parts of the Mesozoic. and while the native plants are largely going to be wrong.. the dinosauria were adapted to eat some fairly tough and nasty plants (ferns, cycads, etc) so they should be adaptable to consuming more recent stuff. and a lot of the historical plants appear to have taken root as well, going by the dinoswamp books.

if you want to drop ice age critters somewhere, it would need to be in mainland NA or mainland europe. someplace where the local ecosystems are still at base close to what they were used to in their own times, and which have the sheer square mileage required to sustain a rich ecosystem.

Ah, but you are FOOLISHLY subscribing to the realities of physics. Physics went on Holiday to Tahiti many years ago and left Aunt Phyllis in control. She sits in a corner and giggles, explaining that sea levels can rise 3 inches over here and 30 feet over there, that a plasma rifle can shoot 2000 feet or 488 kilometers, that a fusion block can drop enough damage to vaporize a super-tank at 25 feet but won't even ruffle the hair of an infant at 35 feet, and that a giant spider with greater surface area than the Goodyear blimp can stand around in the breeze while only weighing 1000 pounds.

No seriously, you're totally right.

[boring7]

You can look at before/after photos of Greenland and see that it isn't alarmism.
Or at some of the predictions in your list have come to pass.

You may as well try to argue that Earth is flat.

Wow that's almost as good as Godwin's Law.

Whoch predictions have come through... on time?

The ones that were intentionally vague because predicting the exact rollout of an entire global climate is like predicting the weather and exact temperature a decade in advance. Oh sorry, it literally IS predicting the weather and exact temperature a decade in advance.

Science said things were going to get hotter, ice was going to melt, things were going to get weird and we couldn't be certain how. Pretty much the only disagreement in climate science is specific models for specific areas (like "will polar bears starve from dying prey or get fat from sudden arrival of NEW prey?" or "Will the melting ice FLOOD this area or will the shrinking permafrost make the place dry up?") and whether or not the massive bribe from exxon-mobil is enough to take a pile of lies into the peer-review process.

[Zer0 Kay]

You can look at before/after photos of Greenland and see that it isn't alarmism.
Or at some of the predictions in your list have come to pass.

You may as well try to argue that Earth is flat.

Wow that's almost as good as Godwin's Law.

Whoch predictions have come through... on time?

The ones that were intentionally vague because predicting the exact rollout of an entire global climate is like predicting the weather and exact temperature a decade in advance. Oh sorry, it literally IS predicting the weather and exact temperature a decade in advance.

Science said things were going to get hotter, ice was going to melt, things were going to get weird and we couldn't be certain how. Pretty much the only disagreement in climate science is specific models for specific areas (like "will polar bears starve from dying prey or get fat from sudden arrival of NEW prey?" or "Will the melting ice FLOOD this area or will the shrinking permafrost make the place dry up?") and whether or not the massive bribe from exxon-mobil is enough to take a pile of lies into the peer-review process.

History also says things are going to get hotter we've been in a warming trend since the little ice age at .5C per century. Are you telling me the little ice age everyone was concerned about then was supposed to be the norm? Does the climate change? Yup. Does human activity contribute? Minimally. Does American activity contribute to it? Even less. What would hindering our private sector do in the next 100 years? Get rid of jobs. Would doing so be environmentally responsible? Well yes, however , one does not throw away all of their 4 sided dice or reduce the number they own because their is a chance they may step on them and they hurt and an increased chance when all your friends are around the table. One also does not go out and buy alternative polyhedron 4 sided die or go all alternative app dice just to reduce the chance.

[glitterboy2098]

Guys, lets take the global warming debate elsewhere ok? so far none of it has had anything to do with the subject of this thread.

[Zer0 Kay]

Guys, lets take the global warming debate elsewhere ok? so far none of it has had anything to do with the subject of this thread.

I'll debate that. Global warming = melted glaciers = green Greenland. If Rifts followed proven science then the Vulcan winter would cause an ice age. Would 200 years +/- be enough to rebuild the Glaciers to their prior grandeur? However we know Rifts does not, Greenland could be green, or occupied by the mountain of madness which should be in Antarctica.

[glitterboy2098]

considering that WB20 spends a whole section discussing extreme snow and cold weather conditions (pg23 to 35), with the note;
"Note: The following information applies to Russia, Canada, and most Arctic environments.", multiple mentions that said rules apply to the the Arctic and Arctic conditions, and we have mention in WB15 of an Indian preserve that is a floating base stuck in the icepack of the arctic (wb15, pg208, Fort Alaska)..

i'd say that there is no debate. in Rifts the conditions are at least on par with current times, if not decades or centuries earlier.

and you were not debating how it applies to the game at all, you were just arguing circles over political stances, emotions, and whether you actually believe in it.
it is pointless and detrimental to this thread.

SO. CUT. IT. OUT.

take it to offtopic.

[Zer0 Kay]

considering that WB20 spends a whole section discussing extreme snow and cold weather conditions (pg23 to 35), with the note;
"Note: The following information applies to Russia, Canada, and most Arctic environments.", multiple mentions that said rules apply to the the Arctic and Arctic conditions, and we have mention in WB15 of an Indian preserve that is a floating base stuck in the icepack of the arctic (wb15, pg208, Fort Alaska)..

i'd say that there is no debate. in Rifts the conditions are at least on par with current times, if not decades or centuries earlier.

and you were not debating how it applies to the game at all, you were just arguing circles over political stances, emotions, and whether you actually believe in it.
it is pointless and detrimental to this thread.

SO. CUT. IT. OUT.

take it to offtopic.

Ah. Yes it does. However it would be just as the books state that most of the world has reverted to wilderness and then goes on book after book showing otherwise. Sea level being listed as rising in one location x amount yet not over y city which would be under x.

You are correct on not debating the point however the point that was applicable

What glaciers if we follow the models of the global warming alarmists of the 70s and 80s then their are no glaciers.

was rather than being recognized as a possibility and simply accepted for its difference of opinion was railed agains including IIRC you.

And as for your demand. IIRC only mods may give them and usually don't take kindly to others doing so.

With that.

A Green Greenland with available resources is perfectly acceptable, if in your game you follow the models of the "climatologists" of the 70s and 80s, whom I consider alarmists. Or if like many other places in Rifts it just doesn't follow the surrounding rules.

[kaid]

it is worth remembering that in the heart of the region (where all the untouched resources are) is under several miles of ice.. and mobile ice at that. go look up [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Iceworm]Project Iceworm[/ul] from the cold war. i think we learned more about greenland and glaciers from the failed attempt to build an under-ice nuclear powered missile base than we ever did with purely scientific efforts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ujx_pND9wg

the TL:DR version is that ice moves, quite rapidly on a geologic scale. and not in any predictable ways. there is a reason that we can talk of glaciers carving out valleys and lakes, their movements while slow, have tremendous power. so you can't exactly just tunnel down the way you would in a mountain. the tunnels would shift and deform, become disjunctured where they pass across one of the multitude of fault lines marking to boundry between one sub-glacier stream to another, etc. the problems of setting up a base on the surface is nothing compared to trying to do so deep under one.

makes me wonder just how weird the planet of Hoth was in star wars (or just how desperate the Rebel Alliance was to build a base there)

On places like Hoth and antartica you also start running into weird varieties of ice. Ice actually has a pretty large number of very different physical states at different temperature/pressure ranges which have some pretty varied physical properties.

[kaid]

Guys, lets take the global warming debate elsewhere ok? so far none of it has had anything to do with the subject of this thread.

I'll debate that. Global warming = melted glaciers = green Greenland. If Rifts followed proven science then the Vulcan winter would cause an ice age. Would 200 years +/- be enough to rebuild the Glaciers to their prior grandeur? However we know Rifts does not, Greenland could be green, or occupied by the mountain of madness which should be in Antarctica.

Well we do know that in russia they had I believe 30 years of solid winter after the rifts came and nuclear exchanges/detonations happened in that area. But north america did not seem to suffer from prolonged winters as far as we know. Given what we know from the canada book I assume greenland is mostly ice covered still as the climate in that part of canada near greenland seems about what we see today but rifts be weird so who knows.

[IronWarrior]

i do believe Rifts Earth defies logic so viking run mastodon ranches is doable if you throw out logic and use imagination. it is an rpg after all.

[gaby]

What about a Kingdom of Elves from Palladium world got rifted ther?

[taalismn]

[

Viking run Mastodon ranches.[/quote]

Sven Hotembergrabber, Cowboy of the North.

[Zer0 Kay]

[

Viking run Mastodon ranches.

Sven Hotembergrabber, Cowboy of the North.[/quote]
Uh... Mastadon Man... I mean Mastadon Person... I mean Defenseless Furred Pachyderm
Herd Management Engineer