The Invincibility of the CS?

[Killer Cyborg]

Do you seriously need a source that the Rifts are magic...?

I need a source saying natural death release is unnatural magic and equivalent to a magic ritual.

I'm not going to research a claim that nobody here has made.
The claim is that the Great Cataclysm was caused by magic, not that it was caused by a magic ritual.

If you want to pick knits, it's also largely due to their psionic nature.
But almost as big of a threat to Rifts Earth is The Vampire Kingdoms, or the Xiticix, or Nxla, or The Four Horsemen.
If Atlantis was more interested in eating worlds, then they'd be the biggest threat.

None of which were brought in by a single mage.

Please cite your sources for how each threat arrived.

Also, note the difference between "could have been brought in by a single mage," and "were definitely brought in by magic," and in "were definitely brought in by a single mage."

Almost as if you're rapidly shifting your standards back and forth as needed for confirmation bias.

Am I also projecting...?

MY standards are simple and unchanging:
-Magic caused the Great Cataclysm
-Magic has brought countless world or galaxy level threats to Rifts Earth.
-The Great Cataclysm was dangerous. So are world/galaxy level threats.
Ergo, Magic is dangerous.

YOU're the one who's all over the place, swapping questions and positions as it suits you.
If you want to claim that magic hasn't brought dangers to Rifts Earth, then stick with that claim and prove it.
If you want to claim that the dangers that magic has brought to Rifts Earth aren't dangerous, then stick with that claim and prove it.
If you want to claim that the Great Cataclysm wasn't caused by magic, then stick with that claim and prove it.
If you want to claim that the Great Cataclysm wasn't dangerous, then stick with that claim and prove it.
If you want to have any claim you make taken seriously, make that claim clearly, and stick to it.
Quit dancing around.
Admit when something is true, even if you don't like it. (i.e., "PPE is magic," or "the Great Cataclysm was caused by Magic," etc.)
Don't just try to change the subject.

The Mechanoids are only one example (albeit arguably the most dangerous) of a world-wide or galaxy-wide threat that could be brought into play by a single mage who isn't even TRYING to cause problems.

How about "capable of bringing in inter-dimensional terrors to plague the planet"...?
Does that work?
And why complain that I haven't defined something that you haven't asked for a definition/standard of...?

Because we did?

"We" who?
Did what, when?

Look, before you try to argue, read the books.
(RUE 113) the ability of Ley Line Walkers to Sense Ley Line and Magic Energy, including the ability to see Magic Energy:
The mages sees magic energy/PPE radiating from people, creatures, objects, and areas, as a faint aura whenever more than 20 PPE are present.

LLWs can see magic energy (aka PPE) in any amounts more than 20 PPE.
But even if mages can't see it, PPE is still magic energy.
RUE 185
Like magnetism or radio waves, the forces of magic are usually invisible, however, the amount of energy coursing through the ley lines since the Great Cataclysm makes them visible to the human eye. even three hundred years later, the ley lines surge with unparalleled levels of mystic power. That's why you can see them radiating light blue energy at night (the color of magic) and even see them faintly from a distance during the day. Paraphsychologists of the 20th Century called this energy Potential Psychic Energy because it is also responsible, they believe for psychic phenomena and the exceptional talents that manifest in some people.

PPE is magic
Ley Lines are magic.
This isn't even Rifts 101; this is Rifts 098.

Hey, there's that abuse again.

So nearly any child is magic and therefore dangerous. That's...great. Good on ya.

Hurling down a strawman while you try to dodge the point doesn't change the facts.
PPE is magic.
Ley Lines are Magic.
The Great Cataclysm was magic.
These are simple, basic facts that anybody who has read any of the main Rifts books should KNOW.

[jaymz]

I think in this instance KC your argument is more "magic energy" as unlike you and I, most hear/read magic they think spells/rituals where we think overall.

To address others

Shark - whether you believe it or not, what is written I hoh is fact. Your belief or lack of belief in it is irrelevant. Furthermore stop twisting what i say to fit your stance of "nuh-uh". Words have meaning. Are ready to be plucked is quite different that are ready to be potentially pluck. I said the latter but you keep referring to the former.

Hwalsh - the reason you do not see the pablum feeding lines you so dearly want is because, and this may come as a shock to you, generally speaking GMs and players don't want this stuff force fed to them bit prefer to tale the basic info and apply as they see fit. IE parts shortages. The gm can determine the shape and condition cs forces are accordingly as needed. Apparently you prefer to have every detail spoonfed to you. I do not nor do the vast majority of players or GMs I have encountered in person or online in the past 20 years.

[Killer Cyborg]

Magic is magic.
Spells are a subset of magic.
It's not my responsibility to clarify that when I say "car," that I'm not talking only about Toyotas, and it makes no real sense for anybody to assume that's what I mean.
Just like when I refer to technology, I'm NOT referring to only pistols.
And it would be weird for me to assume such limitations when anybody else used the term.

When people in this thread talk about the CS hating "magic," are they saying that the CS only hate Spells, NOT enchanted items, not spell-like abilities, not magic creatures, not magic constructs,only spells?

[Eagle]

Magic and technology can both be dangerous. Very dangerous, in some cases.

The difference is that dangerous technologies are very well understood, usually require a significant industrial base to produce, and we have (by Rifts Earth time) centuries of experience in regulating and controlling them. Yeah, a nuke is very dangerous, but building them is really hard and it takes a lot of resources that most people don't have. There doesn't appear to be a problem in Rifts of people getting lots of nukes and blowing up cities.

Magic, on the other hand, requires virtually no logistical support. People on Rifts Earth can just wake up one day and suddenly you're a mystic. Or you could get angry at something and cry out for vengeance, and if an alien intelligence hears you, they can give you power. That's how you get vampires and witches. Or you can just learn how to be a shifter or a line walker somehow (I'm not really sure what training is required for that sort of thing).

A line walker with Create Scroll and Annihilate can just sit on a ley line for ten minutes and gather enough PPE to just churn out scroll after scroll of his little personal-level nuke. And all he needs is a loose-leaf notebook. Any wonder why the Coalition worries about that sort of thing?

[jaymz]

KC dude i'm on your side here.....just pointing out what they seem to be more referring too. Yup magic energy (magic) is why that bad shyte happened.

[eliakon]

Magic is magic.
Spells are a subset of magic.
It's not my responsibility to clarify that when I say "car," that I'm not talking only about Toyotas, and it makes no real sense for anybody to assume that's what I mean.
Just like when I refer to technology, I'm NOT referring to only pistols.
And it would be weird for me to assume such limitations when anybody else used the term.

When people in this thread talk about the CS hating "magic," are they saying that the CS only hate Spells, NOT enchanted items, not spell-like abilities, not magic creatures, not magic constructs,only spells?

So the CS is insane and hates the universe and life itself.
Cool we have just established now that the CS is utterly irrational and insane

[Killer Cyborg]

Magic is magic.
Spells are a subset of magic.
It's not my responsibility to clarify that when I say "car," that I'm not talking only about Toyotas, and it makes no real sense for anybody to assume that's what I mean.
Just like when I refer to technology, I'm NOT referring to only pistols.
And it would be weird for me to assume such limitations when anybody else used the term.

When people in this thread talk about the CS hating "magic," are they saying that the CS only hate Spells, NOT enchanted items, not spell-like abilities, not magic creatures, not magic constructs,only spells?

So the CS is insane and hates the universe and life itself.
Cool we have just established now that the CS is utterly irrational and insane

Don't confuse ignorance with insanity.
The CS doesn't have the meta game knowledge that we have--they don't understand that they're trying to fight against a universal force that is ultimately part of their own existence.
All they see is the tip of the iceberg, the visible devastation caused by rogue mages and monsters and such.
I think it's pretty clear that the CS are NOT making optimal decisions for humanity; they're trying to move backward to a more peaceful time, but there's no real way for them to win with their current dogma and policies.

[eliakon]

Magic is magic.
Spells are a subset of magic.
It's not my responsibility to clarify that when I say "car," that I'm not talking only about Toyotas, and it makes no real sense for anybody to assume that's what I mean.
Just like when I refer to technology, I'm NOT referring to only pistols.
And it would be weird for me to assume such limitations when anybody else used the term.

When people in this thread talk about the CS hating "magic," are they saying that the CS only hate Spells, NOT enchanted items, not spell-like abilities, not magic creatures, not magic constructs,only spells?

So the CS is insane and hates the universe and life itself.
Cool we have just established now that the CS is utterly irrational and insane

Don't confuse ignorance with insanity.
The CS doesn't have the meta game knowledge that we have--they don't understand that they're trying to fight against a universal force that is ultimately part of their own existence.
All they see is the tip of the iceberg, the visible devastation caused by rogue mages and monsters and such.
I think it's pretty clear that the CS are NOT making optimal decisions for humanity; they're trying to move backward to a more peaceful time, but there's no real way for them to win with their current dogma and policies.

No, I am going to say
"Thinking life itself is evil" is pretty much text book insane thank you.
Because sorry, the CS does have access to knowledge on magic.
Willful ignorance is not an excuse sorry.
Choosing to deny reality because you don't like reality and it interferes with your political plans is irrational

Not to mention the entire argument here about "Magic is dangerous"?
Yeah, all you have done is prove that life and reality itself is dangerous and that basically your trolling us, or that you just arguing for the sake of arguing, or your trying to be a CS apologist.

And no, the CS is not "Trying to move backward to a more peaceful time"
That is bullcrap propaganda.
The CS is trying to establish power for their elite pure and simple.
There is nothing else to it.
Any other claims run into the printed statements to the contrary and the fact that their methods are deliberately chosen to be incompatible with any other outcome.
So lets lay off of the CS Apologist propaganda, and call the spade in the room a spade okay?

[Blue_Lion]

I see magic as anything supernatural. A demon is magical, a enchanted sword is magical, a mage is a user of supernatural forces a dragon is magical and so a fairy.

Magic can be both very dangerous and very helpful. while there a few cases of magic bringing risk to rifts, technology caused a cataclysm. One risk is just easier for the CS to accept than the other and magic is a very good villian to use to keep your people in line.

[eliakon]

I see magic as anything supernatural. A demon is magic, a enchanted sword is magic, a mage is a user of supernatural forces a dragon is magic and so it a fairy.

Magic can be both very dangerous and very bad. while there a few cases of magic bringing risk to rifts, technology caused a cataclysm. One risk is just easier for the CS to accept than the other and magic is a very good villian to use to keep your people in line.

Which still fails to realize that this has in inherent flaw.
Your making the mistake of projecting your Real World views onto the game world.
Its not supernatural in universe.
Its natural.
No, really.
PPE is a normal, natural, fundamental force of nature and part of the basic make up of life. It is in fact one of the defining characteristics of life. As such it can not be "abnormal" or "supernatural" since that would imply that it is something other than natural. And it is not.

There is a bias to think that based on our Real World experiences. This bias also makes us think that "technology" is 'normal' and 'rational' and 'natural'...
...even when in the Palladium Universe it follows rules that by our experience would be utterly supernatural and magical.
In the Palladium universe momentum is not conserved
In the Palladium universe fundamental forces like the electro weak force and Gravity operate differently
In the Palladium universe matter and anti matter are different than in our universe!

The Palladium Universe is not our universe people. You ignore this at your peril and when you make conclusions based on our universe and try to apply them to the Palladium Universe you will almost always get the wrong answer.

[Killer Cyborg]

Magic is magic.
Spells are a subset of magic.
It's not my responsibility to clarify that when I say "car," that I'm not talking only about Toyotas, and it makes no real sense for anybody to assume that's what I mean.
Just like when I refer to technology, I'm NOT referring to only pistols.
And it would be weird for me to assume such limitations when anybody else used the term.

When people in this thread talk about the CS hating "magic," are they saying that the CS only hate Spells, NOT enchanted items, not spell-like abilities, not magic creatures, not magic constructs,only spells?

So the CS is insane and hates the universe and life itself.
Cool we have just established now that the CS is utterly irrational and insane

Don't confuse ignorance with insanity.
The CS doesn't have the meta game knowledge that we have--they don't understand that they're trying to fight against a universal force that is ultimately part of their own existence.
All they see is the tip of the iceberg, the visible devastation caused by rogue mages and monsters and such.
I think it's pretty clear that the CS are NOT making optimal decisions for humanity; they're trying to move backward to a more peaceful time, but there's no real way for them to win with their current dogma and policies.

No, I am going to say
"Thinking life itself is evil" is pretty much text book insane thank you.

Huh.
THAT seems like a pretty large and bizarre strawman to whip out of your pocket.
I assume it's based on a conflation of "life" and "PPE"...?

Because sorry, the CS does have access to knowledge on magic.

The CS does have some access to "knowledge on magic."
That's not the same as understanding everything that we the players and game-masters are told about magic.
As with all kinds of knowledge, there are degrees.

Willful ignorance is not an excuse sorry.

It's not an excuse.
Neither is it insanity.
Hence my statement of "don't confuse ignorance with insanity."

Choosing to deny reality because you don't like reality and it interferes with your political plans is irrational

What reality specifically do you believe that the CS knows, but chooses to deny?

Not to mention the entire argument here about "Magic is dangerous"?

Yes. It's really that simple.
Magic is dangerous. Choosing to deny that reality because it interferes somehow with an anti-CS stance, or a pro-magic stance, or any other kind of emotional viewpoint, is irrational

Yeah, all you have done is prove that life and reality itself is dangerous

Again, you seem to be conflating "life" and "magic."
And now you're throwing "reality" into the mix as well.
If you want to get anywhere with that, demonstrate that Life=Magic=Reality.
Without any demonstration, your claim doesn't seem to make any sense.

and that basically your trolling us, or that you just arguing for the sake of arguing, or your trying to be a CS apologist.

You agree that magic is dangerous.
Yet you want to claim that because I am saying that magic is dangerous, that I'm trolling.
And that makes sense to you...?


At the same time, I've said that the CS is making bad decisions based on ignorance.
And that's an apologist stance to you...?

And no, the CS is not "Trying to move backward to a more peaceful time"

They're not trying to get rid of the supernatural creatures and abilities that have come up since the Cataclysm?

That is bullcrap propaganda.
The CS is trying to establish power for their elite pure and simple.

That too, yes.
And since magic and the supernatural are a threat to their elite, they see those as their enemy.

There is nothing else to it.

There's always more to it.
The world isn't black and white, and neither is Rifts.

Any other claims run into the printed statements to the contrary and the fact that their methods are deliberately chosen to be incompatible with any other outcome.

Huh?

So lets lay off of the CS Apologist propaganda, and call the spade in the room a spade okay?

How about you lay off the name-calling and trolling?
I mean, we can get this thread locked really fast, if you want to go down that road.
If not, then address the poster, not the post.
Discuss what I say, and don't invent phantom motivations for me.

[Killer Cyborg]

I see magic as anything supernatural. A demon is magic, a enchanted sword is magic, a mage is a user of supernatural forces a dragon is magic and so it a fairy.

Magic can be both very dangerous and very bad. while there a few cases of magic bringing risk to rifts, technology caused a cataclysm. One risk is just easier for the CS to accept than the other and magic is a very good villian to use to keep your people in line.

Which still fails to realize that this has in inherent flaw.
Your making the mistake of projecting your Real World views onto the game world.
Its not supernatural in universe.
Its natural.
No, really.
PPE is a normal, natural, fundamental force of nature and part of the basic make up of life. It is in fact one of the defining characteristics of life. As such it can not be "abnormal" or "supernatural" since that would imply that it is something other than natural. And it is not.

Right.
At the same time, in-game, they refer to magic as being "supernatural," even if it's not technically accurate.
That's the definition that I believe we're going with for this conversation--using the terms that the game itself uses.
The whole "magic isn't really magic, we just call it that" angle doesn't work in the context of this conversation, because in-game, magic detects as magic.

[Killer Cyborg]

I see magic as anything supernatural. A demon is magical, a enchanted sword is magical, a mage is a user of supernatural forces a dragon is magical and so a fairy.

Magic can be both very dangerous and very helpful. while there a few cases of magic bringing risk to rifts, technology caused a cataclysm. One risk is just easier for the CS to accept than the other and magic is a very good villian to use to keep your people in line.

Technology didn't cause the cataclysm, in my view; it merely sparked it.
This is something of a semantic and philosophical issue, though, akin to arguing about whether a building was burned down because the structure was doused with gasoline, or whether it was because a match was struck.

Cause aside, I think it's still clear that the cataclysm itself was a magical event (or series of magical events).

Other than that, I'm pretty much on the same page as you are: magic is anything supernatural, and the CS doesn't like any of it.

[Blue_Lion]

I see magic as anything supernatural. A demon is magical, a enchanted sword is magical, a mage is a user of supernatural forces a dragon is magical and so a fairy.

Magic can be both very dangerous and very helpful. while there a few cases of magic bringing risk to rifts, technology caused a cataclysm. One risk is just easier for the CS to accept than the other and magic is a very good villian to use to keep your people in line.

Technology didn't cause the cataclysm, in my view; it merely sparked it.
This is something of a semantic and philosophical issue, though, akin to arguing about whether a building was burned down because the structure was doused with gasoline, or whether it was because a match was struck.

Cause aside, I think it's still clear that the cataclysm itself was a magical event (or series of magical events).

Other than that, I'm pretty much on the same page as you are: magic is anything supernatural, and the CS doesn't like any of it.

The cataclysm may have been a chain of magical events but the thing that caused it was tech killing people. The use of WMD triggered/sparked/caused the cataclysm. (it may have been a combined with XYZ but the tech was the spark that caused it.) That is my view you are free to see it differently but to me tech did kind of pull the trigger.

[Killer Cyborg]

I see magic as anything supernatural. A demon is magical, a enchanted sword is magical, a mage is a user of supernatural forces a dragon is magical and so a fairy.

Magic can be both very dangerous and very helpful. while there a few cases of magic bringing risk to rifts, technology caused a cataclysm. One risk is just easier for the CS to accept than the other and magic is a very good villian to use to keep your people in line.

Technology didn't cause the cataclysm, in my view; it merely sparked it.
This is something of a semantic and philosophical issue, though, akin to arguing about whether a building was burned down because the structure was doused with gasoline, or whether it was because a match was struck.

Cause aside, I think it's still clear that the cataclysm itself was a magical event (or series of magical events).

Other than that, I'm pretty much on the same page as you are: magic is anything supernatural, and the CS doesn't like any of it.

The cataclysm may have been a chain of magical events but the thing that caused it was tech killing people. The use of WMD triggered/sparked/caused the cataclysm. (it may have been a combined with XYZ but the tech was the spark that caused it.) That is my view you are free to see it differently but to me tech did kind of pull the trigger.

That's what I mean--it's the kind of philosophical thing where different people are going to have different views, and going back-and-forth over it for 50 pages just isn't going to change things.
So, agree to disagree.

[Axelmania]

One clarifying point worth making here...

The PPE in most living beings (I wouldn't say all, I consider Machine People to be alive, don't they have 0? Plus you can remain alive while at 0 if you spend it all) only surged the ley lines when it was released and DOUBLED upon death.

The CS opposes the mass executions that magic ritual desires. That is why when the CS kill enemies, they space it out, tiny villages at a time, and won't use nukes.

[HWalsh]

One clarifying point worth making here...

The PPE in most living beings (I wouldn't say all, I consider Machine People to be alive, don't they have 0? Plus you can remain alive while at 0 if you spend it all) only surged the ley lines when it was released and DOUBLED upon death.

The CS opposes the mass executions that magic ritual desires. That is why when the CS kill enemies, they space it out, tiny villages at a time, and won't use nukes.

Save for that time they tried to use nukes but Tolkeen stopped it.

[Axelmania]

Wasn't that nuclear LRMs rather than the CS Navy style ones?

Either way, Chalk did that against orders. Karl sent him knowing he'd lash out, but not necessarily that much. Council didn't approve, it was a rogue action.

You might as well hold Lord Coake responsible for all the rebel cyberknights, or every Atlantean responsible for the Sunaj.

[Nightmask]

One clarifying point worth making here...

The PPE in most living beings (I wouldn't say all, I consider Machine People to be alive, don't they have 0? Plus you can remain alive while at 0 if you spend it all) only surged the ley lines when it was released and DOUBLED upon death.

The CS opposes the mass executions that magic ritual desires. That is why when the CS kill enemies, they space it out, tiny villages at a time, and won't use nukes.

Save for that time they tried to use nukes but Tolkeen stopped it.

Along with all the times that they've carpet bombed villages, lined people up and shot them all dead, etc.

[Greepnak]

Magic and technology can both be dangerous. Very dangerous, in some cases.

The difference is that dangerous technologies are very well understood, usually require a significant industrial base to produce, and we have (by Rifts Earth time) centuries of experience in regulating and controlling them. Yeah, a nuke is very dangerous, but building them is really hard and it takes a lot of resources that most people don't have. There doesn't appear to be a problem in Rifts of people getting lots of nukes and blowing up cities.

Magic, on the other hand, requires virtually no logistical support. People on Rifts Earth can just wake up one day and suddenly you're a mystic. Or you could get angry at something and cry out for vengeance, and if an alien intelligence hears you, they can give you power. That's how you get vampires and witches. Or you can just learn how to be a shifter or a line walker somehow (I'm not really sure what training is required for that sort of thing).

A line walker with Create Scroll and Annihilate can just sit on a ley line for ten minutes and gather enough PPE to just churn out scroll after scroll of his little personal-level nuke. And all he needs is a loose-leaf notebook. Any wonder why the Coalition worries about that sort of thing?

Ultimately, This. Charles Whitman with Meteor is a problem much bigger than Whitman with a rifle.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

One clarifying point worth making here...

The PPE in most living beings (I wouldn't say all, I consider Machine People to be alive, don't they have 0? Plus you can remain alive while at 0 if you spend it all) only surged the ley lines when it was released and DOUBLED upon death.

The CS opposes the mass executions that magic ritual desires. That is why when the CS kill enemies, they space it out, tiny villages at a time, and won't use nukes.

Save for that time they tried to use nukes but Tolkeen stopped it.

Along with all the times that they've carpet bombed villages, lined people up and shot them all dead, etc.

Well don't live in coalition controlled areas and you will not have that problem. Rifts earth is a dangerous place, even more dangerous if you don't think things thru.

[Pepsi Jedi]

One clarifying point worth making here...

The PPE in most living beings (I wouldn't say all, I consider Machine People to be alive, don't they have 0? Plus you can remain alive while at 0 if you spend it all) only surged the ley lines when it was released and DOUBLED upon death.

The CS opposes the mass executions that magic ritual desires. That is why when the CS kill enemies, they space it out, tiny villages at a time, and won't use nukes.

Save for that time they tried to use nukes but Tolkeen stopped it.

You mean the time a rogue element did so with out CS approval? Rogue elements that were put to death for their crimes.

[Shark_Force]

I think in this instance KC your argument is more "magic energy" as unlike you and I, most hear/read magic they think spells/rituals where we think overall.

To address others

Shark - whether you believe it or not, what is written I hoh is fact. Your belief or lack of belief in it is irrelevant. Furthermore stop twisting what i say to fit your stance of "nuh-uh". Words have meaning. Are ready to be plucked is quite different that are ready to be potentially pluck. I said the latter but you keep referring to the former.

Hwalsh - the reason you do not see the pablum feeding lines you so dearly want is because, and this may come as a shock to you, generally speaking GMs and players don't want this stuff force fed to them bit prefer to tale the basic info and apply as they see fit. IE parts shortages. The gm can determine the shape and condition cs forces are accordingly as needed. Apparently you prefer to have every detail spoonfed to you. I do not nor do the vast majority of players or GMs I have encountered in person or online in the past 20 years.

*everything* is potentially ready to be plucked. splynncryth is potentially ready to be plucked by the CS... *if* he suddenly loses his millions upon millions of minions somehow. the mechanoids are potentially ready to be plucked... *if* they encounter some major setback or are opposed by a more powerful force. the xiticix are potentially ready to be plucked... *if* 99.999% of them catch some mysterious disease and die.

potentially ready to be plucked (or, if you prefer, "ready to be potentially plucked") is completely and utterly meaningless drivel. if you didn't mean that they're close to being ready, then why even bring it up? if all it means is that something could theoretically happen, at which point they would be ready to be plucked, then it doesn't even need to be said, it's just a waste of time to even mention it, because that is true for everything in existence. they are no different from anyone else if we're just stating that some vague undefined thing could happen, and then they'd be vulnerable.

Magic and technology can both be dangerous. Very dangerous, in some cases.

The difference is that dangerous technologies are very well understood, usually require a significant industrial base to produce, and we have (by Rifts Earth time) centuries of experience in regulating and controlling them. Yeah, a nuke is very dangerous, but building them is really hard and it takes a lot of resources that most people don't have. There doesn't appear to be a problem in Rifts of people getting lots of nukes and blowing up cities.

Magic, on the other hand, requires virtually no logistical support. People on Rifts Earth can just wake up one day and suddenly you're a mystic. Or you could get angry at something and cry out for vengeance, and if an alien intelligence hears you, they can give you power. That's how you get vampires and witches. Or you can just learn how to be a shifter or a line walker somehow (I'm not really sure what training is required for that sort of thing).

A line walker with Create Scroll and Annihilate can just sit on a ley line for ten minutes and gather enough PPE to just churn out scroll after scroll of his little personal-level nuke. And all he needs is a loose-leaf notebook. Any wonder why the Coalition worries about that sort of thing?

Ultimately, This. Charles Whitman with Meteor is a problem much bigger than Whitman with a rifle.

you might wake up and suddenly you're a mystic, but you're not chucking meteors any time soon. it is far more likely that the most powerful spell you can cast does less damage than a laser pistol, has less ammo than a laser pistol before needing recharging, and has less range than a laser pistol. frankly, if this is so terrifying, than what does it mean that any random person can buy a wilk's laser torch for a pittance (without needing an incredibly improbable event happening) and try to kill everyone? you don't need to train anything at all that way, while even mystics and witches take time to really develop their magic and become a major threat because they start at level 1, and level 1 spellcasting classes aren't really all that dangerous unless you're comparing it to literally nothing.

if a line walker with create scroll and annihilate on a ley line is so terrifying, then how is that in any way worse than a CS factory that produces long-range missiles that can do largely the same thing, except at a range several orders of magnitude larger?

certainly, it takes a lot more training to produce technology... sometimes. it takes years of dedicated training, perhaps over a decade, to train as a level 1 member of a spellcasting class, so i'd say for those cases magic is at least as hard to learn. and that's just for level 1. to reach the point where a ley line walker can cast create scroll and annihilate could take centuries (no seriously, have a look around for level 15 ley line walkers some time, the great majority are immortal beings that have been alive for many centuries or more)... unless they've got infrastructure built up to teach them that. and guess what... that is probably also under the control of organizations that have a long history of controlling access to powerful magic.

furthermore, with rare exceptions, it is often vastly easier for someone to *use* technology. i mean sure, the guy who builds nukes needs years of education and a facility to build them. but the guy who deploys the nuke doesn't. the guy who builds a mega-damage laser rifle needs all kinds of skills that could take years to learn, and a factory to build it (the main differences between the factory and the ley line walker on the ley line are that the factory has more freedom in where it can be built, and the factory probably outputs a lot more product). the guy who fires it needs about 5 seconds of explanation to use it on a very basic level ("point this end at things you want to die and pull this thingy here"), and iirc a rogue scholar can teach full proficiency within a few months of part-time training (i would bet a proper basic military training program could teach proficiency faster, though probably not by too much since any proper military basic training is going to teach more than one skill).

charles whitman doesn't just wake up one morning and decide to cast meteor. charles whitman gets to cast meteor only after years of dedicated study (either to obtain a spellcasting class in the first place, followed by somehow obtaining spell knowledge worth over half a million credits, or by actually reaching level 10 in a class that gives spells when you level up - not all do, for the record). but he *can* just pick up a laser rifle and become immediately dangerous.

now, this is not to say that magic is not dangerous. most anything is dangerous if used in a dangerous way, whether we're talking about your bare hands or a magic ritual or a boom gun. but that's the thing: anything can be dangerous. we're not protected from people walking up to us with a club and bashing our heads in by making sure that nobody can get their hands on a makeshift club. we're protected from that mainly by the fact that most people won't just walk up and bash our heads in with a club for no reason, with a secondary reason being that we have our own people willing to commit violence to protect us from other people who want to commit violence to harm us (which is, of course, not a perfect system, otherwise we wouldn't have any violence at all, but it does do fairly well).

now you might argue that the most destructive things in technology are kept out of the hands of most people, and that's typically true. of course, i don't imagine most of north america feels *particularly* safe knowing that the only ones in north america with nukes are the CS. frankly, i doubt that's much of a comfort at all, particularly considering the siege on tolkeen started with the CS deploying all manner of missiles that, while not actual nukes as i understand it, were intended to be powerful enough to completely destroy tolkeen.

[Eagle]

you might wake up and suddenly you're a mystic, but you're not chucking meteors any time soon. it is far more likely that the most powerful spell you can cast does less damage than a laser pistol, has less ammo than a laser pistol before needing recharging, and has less range than a laser pistol. frankly, if this is so terrifying, than what does it mean that any random person can buy a wilk's laser torch for a pittance (without needing an incredibly improbable event happening) and try to kill everyone? you don't need to train anything at all that way, while even mystics and witches take time to really develop their magic and become a major threat because they start at level 1, and level 1 spellcasting classes aren't really all that dangerous unless you're comparing it to literally nothing.

if a line walker with create scroll and annihilate on a ley line is so terrifying, then how is that in any way worse than a CS factory that produces long-range missiles that can do largely the same thing, except at a range several orders of magnitude larger?

certainly, it takes a lot more training to produce technology... sometimes. it takes years of dedicated training, perhaps over a decade, to train as a level 1 member of a spellcasting class, so i'd say for those cases magic is at least as hard to learn. and that's just for level 1. to reach the point where a ley line walker can cast create scroll and annihilate could take centuries (no seriously, have a look around for level 15 ley line walkers some time, the great majority are immortal beings that have been alive for many centuries or more)... unless they've got infrastructure built up to teach them that. and guess what... that is probably also under the control of organizations that have a long history of controlling access to powerful magic.

furthermore, with rare exceptions, it is often vastly easier for someone to *use* technology. i mean sure, the guy who builds nukes needs years of education and a facility to build them. but the guy who deploys the nuke doesn't. the guy who builds a mega-damage laser rifle needs all kinds of skills that could take years to learn, and a factory to build it (the main differences between the factory and the ley line walker on the ley line are that the factory has more freedom in where it can be built, and the factory probably outputs a lot more product). the guy who fires it needs about 5 seconds of explanation to use it on a very basic level ("point this end at things you want to die and pull this thingy here"), and iirc a rogue scholar can teach full proficiency within a few months of part-time training (i would bet a proper basic military training program could teach proficiency faster, though probably not by too much since any proper military basic training is going to teach more than one skill).

charles whitman doesn't just wake up one morning and decide to cast meteor. charles whitman gets to cast meteor only after years of dedicated study (either to obtain a spellcasting class in the first place, followed by somehow obtaining spell knowledge worth over half a million credits, or by actually reaching level 10 in a class that gives spells when you level up - not all do, for the record). but he *can* just pick up a laser rifle and become immediately dangerous.

now, this is not to say that magic is not dangerous. most anything is dangerous if used in a dangerous way, whether we're talking about your bare hands or a magic ritual or a boom gun. but that's the thing: anything can be dangerous. we're not protected from people walking up to us with a club and bashing our heads in by making sure that nobody can get their hands on a makeshift club. we're protected from that mainly by the fact that most people won't just walk up and bash our heads in with a club for no reason, with a secondary reason being that we have our own people willing to commit violence to protect us from other people who want to commit violence to harm us (which is, of course, not a perfect system, otherwise we wouldn't have any violence at all, but it does do fairly well).

now you might argue that the most destructive things in technology are kept out of the hands of most people, and that's typically true. of course, i don't imagine most of north america feels *particularly* safe knowing that the only ones in north america with nukes are the CS. frankly, i doubt that's much of a comfort at all, particularly considering the siege on tolkeen started with the CS deploying all manner of missiles that, while not actual nukes as i understand it, were intended to be powerful enough to completely destroy tolkeen.

The question is why does the CS fear magic. Are they rational for fearing magic? Saying "well other people fear the CS" is irrelevant. Of course they fear the CS, it's a huge military power. People fear those. But that's not the subject of the discussion.

Advanced tech (as I said earlier) has a huge industrial tail. You have thousands of people working to create the technology. That technology is also well understood, and has limitations that the CS government knows and accepts. Magic doesn't have those limitations. Sure, a 1st level guy is probably going to be less effective than a soldier in armor with a gun. And yes, high level spells appear to be relatively rare. But as the CS, you've got no way to know if that guy in the robe is just some low level mystic who knows some minor magic, or if he's a high level shifter who can unleash the hordes of hell. With technology, you know the difference between a nuclear warhead and a television. With magic, you can't make that distinction until the explosions happen.

Somebody earlier said that "sense magic" was your Geiger counter. That just reinforces the CS' policies. In Tolkeen, you cast sense magic and everything lights up. Again, you can't tell the difference between a kid on a flying skateboard and Thor with Mjolnir. The only way it becomes useful is if you heavily restrict magic altogether.

[Shark_Force]

The question is why does the CS fear magic. Are they rational for fearing magic? Saying "well other people fear the CS" is irrelevant. Of course they fear the CS, it's a huge military power. People fear those. But that's not the subject of the discussion.

Advanced tech (as I said earlier) has a huge industrial tail. You have thousands of people working to create the technology. That technology is also well understood, and has limitations that the CS government knows and accepts. Magic doesn't have those limitations. Sure, a 1st level guy is probably going to be less effective than a soldier in armor with a gun. And yes, high level spells appear to be relatively rare. But as the CS, you've got no way to know if that guy in the robe is just some low level mystic who knows some minor magic, or if he's a high level shifter who can unleash the hordes of hell. With technology, you know the difference between a nuclear warhead and a television. With magic, you can't make that distinction until the explosions happen.

Somebody earlier said that "sense magic" was your Geiger counter. That just reinforces the CS' policies. In Tolkeen, you cast sense magic and everything lights up. Again, you can't tell the difference between a kid on a flying skateboard and Thor with Mjolnir. The only way it becomes useful is if you heavily restrict magic altogether.

well, first of all, rifts has not very much science, and a lot more SCIENCE!!!!

so honestly, i'm not entirely sure you do need a huge logistical tail to make advanced tech in rifts. in fact, i halfway suspect that if you were in kevin's game, playing an operator, and there were 3 or 4 damaged robot vehicles nearby and you had a decent set of basic tools, kevin would probably let you cobble them together into one functioning robot vehicle (note: it might not function *well*, or at least not as well as one put together at a major facility, but i would be kinda surprised if he didn't allow it).

secondly, i would bet that kevin also would allow an operator to build all manner of disguised technological devices for those with the right skills. and since the average CS grunt, those being the people manning checkpoints, well they might be able to tell the difference between a TV and a nuclear warhead, i'm not so sure they'd be able to tell the difference between a TV and a nuclear warhead disguised as a TV.

furthermore, once again the main protection against people killing other people is not a lack of access to things that can be used to kill people. if you walk through a crowded area, you're probably walking through an entire crowd of people who *could* have grabbed a kitchen knife from their home and be carrying it with them, with which they could stab you and kill you. if you live in the US, a significant portion of those people *could* get a gun of some form and use it to shoot you if they were really determined to do it. even those who don't own a gun could potentially buy or steal one. if someone wants to kill you badly enough, they can probably do it. they likely won't get away with it, but they could probably kill you.

the main protection against people killing other people is that most people will not just go around trying to murder others. and that is true whether we're talking about a fire bolt spell or a laser rifle or a rock or a makeshift club or a summoned minion or a cybernetic claw implant. simply put, the only reason the CS has for not knowing how powerful a magic user is, is that they have chosen to not have any controls set up, and they have refused to have any relations with any other nation that uses magic. if they weren't being gigantic turds about the whole thing, they'd be able to check your credentials and find out that you're professor magicdude from lazlo university, that you specialize in spells used for construction, and that you are cleared for combat spells useful for personal defense but not for war (so no meteor, but you might know fire bolt).

because simply put, you don't have any particularly reliable ways of knowing whether anyone else is an operator who could take over your HVAC systems to send all the toxic crud it filters out into one or more specific people's homes, but the CS doesn't just murder random people in case they might be capable of doing that, and they especially don't do that without having some reason to believe that someone is not only capable, but *willing* to do that. if i walk up to a CS soldier and they see i have a set of electronics tools, they don't assume i'm plotting to steal a military vehicle and kill tons of people with it. if i have a computer, they don't assume i'm trying to hack into their secure files and make them public. if i have a radio, they don't automatically assume i'm calling in an artillery strike on their position.

they fear magic because they've been trained to, not because they have any particularly valid reason (or at least, no reason *more* valid than fearing anything else). it isn't even a lack of understanding; ask a CS grunt to explain how their laser rifle works, and they can probably tell you how to fire it, but they likely don't have the faintest clue how it actually works. they don't have any understanding of microprocessors or resisters or superconductors or transistors, they probably don't even really know much about electricty, and practically speaking their knowledge of how their laser rifle works is probably not much greater than their knowledge of how a fire ball spell works. the grunt has about as much chance of creating anything even remotely like a laser as they do to spontaneously create a fire ball spell, in any event.

[Axelmania]

Along with all the times that they've carpet bombed villages, lined people up and shot them all dead, etc.

Let's not generalize though: were the people they lined up and shot explicitly bad or good?

Was carpet bombing an ideal way to protect the life of CS soldiers compared to coming in without bombing first?

[Pepsi Jedi]

More over.. Point out the page numbers where it supposedly happened.

[eliakon]

Lets be clear here.
The CS?
The Bloody Campaign that is used to justify their hatred? Yeah that was in 12 PA?
That was 93 years ago. Before the CS even existed.
That would be like arguing that because the leadership of Japan did some bad things to US troops that the proportionate response would be the extermination of all Asians. And then claiming that when China tried to defend itself from our invasion and systematic murder of their men, women and children (since kids just grow up to be adults, got to kill them while you can) that it proves that all Asians are bad and that we need to kill them faster.

But lets put it in terms that people can understand better.
Lets pretend that it is recent okay?
9-11.
Now, that was done at the behest of Al-Qadea which was associated with the Taliban the ruling party of Afghanistan.
Thus the logical, proportionate and morally justified response...
...would be to engage in a systematic murder of every Muslim on the planet right? And not just in the US, but invading Canada, and Mexico, and other nations to set up death camps where our SS expys can send their Muslims to be gassed.
?
What? No one thinks that is justified?

And the pre-release of Disavowed makes this even WORSE people.
Trust me, as bad as it is now, the Disavowed book makes it just sickening.


Then why do the CS apologists seem to think that a battle with one nation 90+ years ago justifies a nation to exterminate entire races and philosophies?
Besides of course the "but I like playing evil people" argument or the ever popular "Well, I want to play people who are not really bad, just confused... but I'm going to do all the evil stuff anyway and pretend that I don't know better even though in the books every one who is exposed to these choices either rebels or is capital E Evil."

[HWalsh]

.Then why do the CS apologists seem to think that a battle with one nation 90+ years ago justifies a nation to exterminate entire races and philosophies?
Besides of course the "but I like playing evil people" argument or the ever popular "Well, I want to play people who are not really bad, just confused... but I'm going to do all the evil stuff anyway and pretend that I don't know better even though in the books every one who is exposed to these choices either rebels or is capital E Evil."

It's a disconnect. People associate with characters. They like playing CS. There is nothing wrong with that.

However they don't like the idea that they like to play evil, so they twist it up in their heads. The CS isn't evil, it's just that you don't understand. You buy into the kool-aid.

Erin Tarn? She's biased man. Whenever they do something bad it's just that they're being literal. They sent a guy back in a body bag? What makes you think they killed him. They were politely returning it for proper burial of course.

Prosek knew Chalk was a psycho when he put him in charge, but he couldn't have known he'd go that far... Even though we're told that everyone knew he'd do something like that.

If you defend the CS... You're defending evil. I just don't see why you defend it. I like Darth Vader, that doesn't make me call bad guy or him a good guy.

[Killer Cyborg]

Again, as always comes up, anybody saying "the CS is evil" is just as incorrect as anybody saying "the CS is not evil."
It's too simple of a blanket statement to have much meaning or accuracy, which is why those kinds of statements always lead to arguments.
(Well, one of the reasons.)

KS has flat-out stated that the CS aren't black-and-white villains; they're more complex than that.
And he's spent pages explaining the nuances, the different factors that are involved.
The CS leadership is corrupt and self-serving, but the population as a whole is no more or less likely on an individual basis to be Evil than most other nations.
This isn't black-and-white, but it's nowhere near so complex of a concept that people should spend so much time and energy arguing about it.

Edit:
For the record, while I'll happily play most any character, I've rarely played a CS soldier or mercenary.
As a rule, I like mages, psychics, and ordinary folk as my characters.
Just in case anyone wants to guess my reason for my opinions, be sure to factor that in.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Lets be clear here.
The CS?
The Bloody Campaign that is used to justify their hatred? Yeah that was in 12 PA?
That was 93 years ago. Before the CS even existed.
That would be like arguing that because the leadership of Japan did some bad things to US troops that the proportionate response would be the extermination of all Asians. And then claiming that when China tried to defend itself from our invasion and systematic murder of their men, women and children (since kids just grow up to be adults, got to kill them while you can) that it proves that all Asians are bad and that we need to kill them faster.

But lets put it in terms that people can understand better.
Lets pretend that it is recent okay?
9-11.
Now, that was done at the behest of Al-Qadea which was associated with the Taliban the ruling party of Afghanistan.
Thus the logical, proportionate and morally justified response...
...would be to engage in a systematic murder of every Muslim on the planet right? And not just in the US, but invading Canada, and Mexico, and other nations to set up death camps where our SS expys can send their Muslims to be gassed.
?
What? No one thinks that is justified?

And the pre-release of Disavowed makes this even WORSE people.
Trust me, as bad as it is now, the Disavowed book makes it just sickening.


Then why do the CS apologists seem to think that a battle with one nation 90+ years ago justifies a nation to exterminate entire races and philosophies?
Besides of course the "but I like playing evil people" argument or the ever popular "Well, I want to play people who are not really bad, just confused... but I'm going to do all the evil stuff anyway and pretend that I don't know better even though in the books every one who is exposed to these choices either rebels or is capital E Evil."

The near irradication of every human on earth, countless magical earthquakes, tidal waves, tornadows, firestorms, zombie plagues, volcanos, that put enough ash in the sky to simulate nuclear winter for years and millions of alien invader's raining down on the planet. The fall of civilization, BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of people dead.

Due to magic.

That's all the justification anyone would -ever- need.

Add on 200 years of dark ages, where countless monsters, demons, supernatural beings, alien invaders preyed on the few pockets of remaining humans. 200 years of virtually zero communication, fending off megadamage threats of all kinds. Then Just as they start to crawl out of the muck, the battle you mention with the magic kingdom that tried to irradicate the humans again.

You act like this was a simple bar fight where a few people got hurt pride. Magic killed billions of humans and utterly reshaped the entire planet. Natural disasters on a scale that would dwarf all previous ones combined. Literal ----100s of years---- of dark ages, not just a few years, but MANY GENERATIONS of people, where monsters of every stripe preyed on the few humans that remained. Then just when they were starting to get on their feet, a magic nation tried to kill them again.

You want to relate it to 9-11? Lets do so.

3000 people died in 9-11 and utterly changed our society, and we still feel it to this day. The Cheeto is STILL trying to get an UNCONSTITUTIONAL Muslim ban in place. Every court strikes him down, but the guy that sits in the big chair, keeps trying.

Three thousand people died. Changed modern society and indeed the world.

Now imagine if something (Anything) had killed 7-10 BILLION people.

You act like it ain't no thing. lol

Insanity. That anyone could trust magic after all that is utterly amazing. Expecting people to is crazy.

[eliakon]

Lets be clear here.
The CS?
The Bloody Campaign that is used to justify their hatred? Yeah that was in 12 PA?
That was 93 years ago. Before the CS even existed.
That would be like arguing that because the leadership of Japan did some bad things to US troops that the proportionate response would be the extermination of all Asians. And then claiming that when China tried to defend itself from our invasion and systematic murder of their men, women and children (since kids just grow up to be adults, got to kill them while you can) that it proves that all Asians are bad and that we need to kill them faster.

But lets put it in terms that people can understand better.
Lets pretend that it is recent okay?
9-11.
Now, that was done at the behest of Al-Qadea which was associated with the Taliban the ruling party of Afghanistan.
Thus the logical, proportionate and morally justified response...
...would be to engage in a systematic murder of every Muslim on the planet right? And not just in the US, but invading Canada, and Mexico, and other nations to set up death camps where our SS expys can send their Muslims to be gassed.
?
What? No one thinks that is justified?

And the pre-release of Disavowed makes this even WORSE people.
Trust me, as bad as it is now, the Disavowed book makes it just sickening.


Then why do the CS apologists seem to think that a battle with one nation 90+ years ago justifies a nation to exterminate entire races and philosophies?
Besides of course the "but I like playing evil people" argument or the ever popular "Well, I want to play people who are not really bad, just confused... but I'm going to do all the evil stuff anyway and pretend that I don't know better even though in the books every one who is exposed to these choices either rebels or is capital E Evil."

The near irradication of every human on earth, countless magical earthquakes, tidal waves, tornadows, firestorms, zombie plagues, volcanos, that put enough ash in the sky to simulate nuclear winter for years and millions of alien invader's raining down on the planet. The fall of civilization, BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of people dead.

Due to magic.

That's all the justification anyone would -ever- need.

Which would almost be kind of hold water.
If it were not for the fact that the CS was not around for that.
It comes hundreds of years later
And it was USING MAGIC at this time.
SO sorry, nope. The argrument that the CS was just 'reacting' to the Coming of the Rifts is just revisioninst history
Because that ship sailed

Add on 200 years of dark ages, where countless monsters, demons, supernatural beings, alien invaders preyed on the few pockets of remaining humans. 200 years of virtually zero communication, fending off megadamage threats of all kinds. Then Just as they start to crawl out of the muck, the battle you mention with the magic kingdom that tried to irradicate the humans again.

You act like this was a simple bar fight where a few people got hurt pride. Magic killed billions of humans and utterly reshaped the entire planet. Natural disasters on a scale that would dwarf all previous ones combined. Literal ----100s of years---- of dark ages, not just a few years, but MANY GENERATIONS of people, where monsters of every stripe preyed on the few humans that remained. Then just when they were starting to get on their feet, a magic nation tried to kill them again.

And again your pretending that ANY OF THIS applies
Not a shred of it counts.
Not a single, solitary bit.
Because the CS has to go back and REWRITE ITS OWN HISTORY to make it work.
And sorry, I don't accept revisionist history here.

The CS was fine with magic up until 12 PA.
Then suddenly it was genocide time.

You want to relate it to 9-11? Lets do so.

3000 people died in 9-11 and utterly changed our society, and we still feel it to this day. The Cheeto President Trump is STILL trying to get an UNCONSTITUTIONAL Muslim ban in place. Every court strikes him down, but the guy that sits in the big chair, keeps trying.

Three thousand people died. Changed modern society and indeed the world.

Now imagine if something (Anything) had killed 7-10 BILLION people.

You act like it ain't no thing. lol

Insanity. That anyone could trust magic after all that is utterly amazing. Expecting people to is crazy.

To bad the CS was fine with magic which proves your argument is false.
Oops
Pesky facts.


No, your trying to pretend that the CS is good guys
They are not,
They are pure, unadulterated evil
Period

The shmucks that the Proseks have duped are not.
But the CS itself? Yeah, genocide is evil.
The leadership is 100% evil.
The actions of the leadership is 100% evil
The rewriting of history to try and PRETEND that they are 'avenging' and 'worried' about what happened in the Coming of the Rifts. WHEN THEY DID NOT CARE is 100% evil.
Like I said
This is like trying to pretend that it would be justified in OUR WORLD to not just be 'doing a little bit of change'
But actively trying to murder every man woman and child that was muslim
Because NO it was NOT the Coming of the Rifts that freaked the CS out in canon.
It was the events of 12 PA
A fight with one self proclaimed little power...
...you know, sort of like the US and the Taliban,
But in the CS case their solution is to rewrite history, and go on a genocide bender and murder everyone that is not like them.
That is, 100% pure, unadulterated evil

Now, people can PRETEND that it was the coming of the rifts.
They can lie about that all they want.
But its not true.
The canon is pretty bloody explicit about it.
And sorry, this is not about CS rewritten history and propaganda. This is about FACTS
and the FACTS are that the CS leadership took a terrorist incident, combined it with a leader that was a genocidal megalomaniac and the result was an empire of evil.

Just like the Third Reich was evil. Even if the Germans were not.
The High Command was evil. The SS was evil.
Same thing applies here.
And pretending that the Nazi propaganda about the Protocols of Zion were actually true doesn't suddenly make them heroes out to save the world from the Jewish overlords.

[Axelmania]

Lets be clear here.
The CS?
The Bloody Campaign that is used to justify their hatred? Yeah that was in 12 PA?
That was 93 years ago. Before the CS even existed.
That would be like arguing that because the leadership of Japan did some bad things to US troops that the proportionate response would be the extermination of all Asians. And then claiming that when China tried to defend itself from our invasion and systematic murder of their men, women and children (since kids just grow up to be adults, got to kill them while you can) that it proves that all Asians are bad and that we need to kill them faster.

But lets put it in terms that people can understand better.
Lets pretend that it is recent okay?
9-11.
Now, that was done at the behest of Al-Qadea which was associated with the Taliban the ruling party of Afghanistan.
Thus the logical, proportionate and morally justified response...
...would be to engage in a systematic murder of every Muslim on the planet right? And not just in the US, but invading Canada, and Mexico, and other nations to set up death camps where our SS expys can send their Muslims to be gassed.
?
What? No one thinks that is justified?

Federation of Magic members > Former FoM members (Tolkeen) escalation would be like Al Qaida members > Former Al Qaida members (e.g. Isis converts), not Al Qaida > All Muslims.

Then why do the CS apologists seem to think that a battle with one nation 90+ years ago justifies a nation to exterminate entire races and philosophies?

The FoM invasion isn't the sole justification for invading Tolkeen, who did leave in protest of the invasion and didn't knowingly participated.

There were later instances, such as interfering with the investigation of the Joseph 1st assassination, the abstention from negotiations, and interference with all military maneuvers in Minnesota, which Karl needed to stabilize to guard the CS from the Xiticix and to reach out to unaffiliated human communities in Minnesota who want CS protection rather than Tolkeen's.

They clearly deserve all expectations: they knowingly withheld intelligence about a kidnapped non-combatant (Joanna Prosek) allowed apocalypse cults to grow in their city, built up a demon army, etc. The latter of which at least I'm pretty sure the CS was aware of.

Defensive militarization is one thing, but when you do it by summoning demons instead of building passive defensive fortifications, it's a lot more alarming to the CS, since demons can be used to invade as well as attack. There are different ways to escalate which can send different messages in an arms race.

The CS isn't evil, it's just that you don't understand. You buy into the kool-aid.

The kool-aid being the reality-as-written that evil citizen/soldiers are the minority, good/selfish are the majority.

Erin Tarn? She's biased man.

Or just a gullible airhead. High IQ isn't necessarily a defense against this. She can't keep The Cathedral's espionage secrets so how could she see the Coalition neutrally? She's going to naturally hate them because they target her. Chicken or the egg?

Whenever they do something bad it's just that they're being literal. They sent a guy back in a body bag? What makes you think they killed him. They were politely returning it for proper burial of course.

ie "I'm assuming something bad happened, please assume with me because it fits my narrative"

Prosek knew Chalk was a psycho when he put him in charge, but he couldn't have known he'd go that far... Even though we're told that everyone knew he'd do something like that.

Are we? Let's look at Sedition 105 again:

Prosek saw him as a dangerous renegade prone to risking his men and equipment on foolish battlefield gambles
..
he was certain the troublesome officer would start trouble with the enemy nation
..
it would draw Tolkeen out of its hole, so to speak

What about this suggests nuclear bombardment. Actually, the part I left out suggests OTHERWISE:

Prosek figured Chalk would probably lose many men no matter what he did, but it would be an acceptable cost

Aeriel bombartment doesn't do that. It's actually a sound tactic to conserve troop lives. Prosek's view here is pretty dark, he was okay letting CS grunts die to get Tolkeen to attack and Chalk embarassed. Chalk actually took a logical approach and bombed before sending in the foot troops.

Also, wasn't this just using artillery? Operation Fullbore was in Early 104 PA (see pg 105), prior to the Crusade for Humanity in Summer 105 PA.

The "volley of low yield nuclear missiles" in October 105 PA specified on Sedition pg9 by Major Jan Yoblonksy's report (assuming this was accurate) was post-chalk. Maybe this is what we should be looking at?

At this point though, nukes were justified, because the dome of protective energy around the city was already witnessed in 104 PA during Chalk's Folly. Normal aerial bombartment failed to get into the city, so they upgraded to low-yield nukes to try and breach the dome this time.

The introduction of nuclear missiles per Yoblonsky in summer 105 PA was necessary to conserve CS troops, because of the massive troop loss when using inferior tactics during the spring 104 PA assault.

The CS was fine with magic up until 12 PA. Then suddenly it was genocide time.

As pointed out previously, the CS didn't exist in 12 PA, it was formed in 33 PA.

Chi-Town disbanded its magical division shortly after Nostrous was killed, per Sorcerer's Revenge 55, but it wasn't instant-genocide because the Chi-Town Magic Division members were allowed to leave peacefully, indoctrination was only mandatory if they wanted to stay in Chi-Town.

Execution for treason only happened if they avoided both options and wanted to stay without being reconditioned.

An interesting point of comparison would be when NGR kicked out its D-Bees. They arguably treated them WORSE than Chi-Town treated its magical division, because Chi-Town gave an option for staying (get mind wiped of your magic knowledge) while NGR didn't give D-Bee citizens that option.

NGR's D-bees weren't allowed to take a lot of their stuff (no big machines/vehicles for example, had to give up their houses to humans, couldn't sell them to make cash) while nothing like this is said of chi-town's mages, so they could presumably leave with all their vehicles and stuff and thrive in another community.

[eliakon]

Lets be clear here.
The CS?
The Bloody Campaign that is used to justify their hatred? Yeah that was in 12 PA?
That was 93 years ago. Before the CS even existed.
That would be like arguing that because the leadership of Japan did some bad things to US troops that the proportionate response would be the extermination of all Asians. And then claiming that when China tried to defend itself from our invasion and systematic murder of their men, women and children (since kids just grow up to be adults, got to kill them while you can) that it proves that all Asians are bad and that we need to kill them faster.

But lets put it in terms that people can understand better.
Lets pretend that it is recent okay?
9-11.
Now, that was done at the behest of Al-Qadea which was associated with the Taliban the ruling party of Afghanistan.
Thus the logical, proportionate and morally justified response...
...would be to engage in a systematic murder of every Muslim on the planet right? And not just in the US, but invading Canada, and Mexico, and other nations to set up death camps where our SS expys can send their Muslims to be gassed.
?
What? No one thinks that is justified?

Federation of Magic members > Former FoM members (Tolkeen) escalation would be like Al Qaida members > Former Al Qaida members (e.g. Isis converts), not Al Qaida > All Muslims.

Then why do the CS apologists seem to think that a battle with one nation 90+ years ago justifies a nation to exterminate entire races and philosophies?

The FoM invasion isn't the sole justification for invading Tolkeen, who did leave in protest of the invasion and didn't knowingly participated.

This isn't about some imaginary 'justification' for invading Tolkeen. This is about the CS declaring genocide against all magic, magic users, d-bees, and the like.
They have spent decades invading and murdering their way up to the current situation. Their current enemies didn't just decide to pick on them out of the blue.

The CS was fine with magic up until 12 PA. Then suddenly it was genocide time.

As pointed out previously, the CS didn't exist in 12 PA, it was formed in 33 PA.

Chi-Town disbanded its magical division shortly after Nostrous was killed, per Sorcerer's Revenge 55, but it wasn't instant-genocide because the Chi-Town Magic Division members were allowed to leave peacefully, indoctrination was only mandatory if they wanted to stay in Chi-Town.

Execution for treason only happened if they avoided both options and wanted to stay without being reconditioned.

Chi town was using magic though.
Which puts to the lie the claim that they were so traumatized by the CotR that they could never trust magic and had to defend themselves against it for ever and ever amen

[Pepsi Jedi]

Lets be clear here.
The CS?
The Bloody Campaign that is used to justify their hatred? Yeah that was in 12 PA?
That was 93 years ago. Before the CS even existed.
That would be like arguing that because the leadership of Japan did some bad things to US troops that the proportionate response would be the extermination of all Asians. And then claiming that when China tried to defend itself from our invasion and systematic murder of their men, women and children (since kids just grow up to be adults, got to kill them while you can) that it proves that all Asians are bad and that we need to kill them faster.

But lets put it in terms that people can understand better.
Lets pretend that it is recent okay?
9-11.
Now, that was done at the behest of Al-Qadea which was associated with the Taliban the ruling party of Afghanistan.
Thus the logical, proportionate and morally justified response...
...would be to engage in a systematic murder of every Muslim on the planet right? And not just in the US, but invading Canada, and Mexico, and other nations to set up death camps where our SS expys can send their Muslims to be gassed.
?
What? No one thinks that is justified?

And the pre-release of Disavowed makes this even WORSE people.
Trust me, as bad as it is now, the Disavowed book makes it just sickening.


Then why do the CS apologists seem to think that a battle with one nation 90+ years ago justifies a nation to exterminate entire races and philosophies?
Besides of course the "but I like playing evil people" argument or the ever popular "Well, I want to play people who are not really bad, just confused... but I'm going to do all the evil stuff anyway and pretend that I don't know better even though in the books every one who is exposed to these choices either rebels or is capital E Evil."

The near irradication of every human on earth, countless magical earthquakes, tidal waves, tornadows, firestorms, zombie plagues, volcanos, that put enough ash in the sky to simulate nuclear winter for years and millions of alien invader's raining down on the planet. The fall of civilization, BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of people dead.

Due to magic.

That's all the justification anyone would -ever- need.

Which would almost be kind of hold water.
If it were not for the fact that the CS was not around for that [/quote]

Who do you think the humans of the CS came from? The descendants of the few that survived it. What story in human history could possibly be bigger than the coming of rifts. While My Little pony and Mr Bean may have been forgotten, due to humanity being reduced to little more than oral history, the story of the coming of the rifts would endure. It's the 'blame' for why humanity was in the position it was in. It's not like they're going to wake up one morning and decide not to talk about it any more.

It comes hundreds of years later
And it was USING MAGIC at this time.
SO sorry, nope. The argrument that the CS was just 'reacting' to the Coming of the Rifts is just revisioninst history
Because that ship sailed

Not at all. That the coming of rifts happened due to magic IS Something to fear 100s of years later just due to how many people were lost and the majority of the planet being sacked. You don't get to just hand wave it because it utterly refutes your every argument. It was the biggest event ever to happen on the planet. They are GOING to remember it and tell tales of it through the dark ages. "Daddy how did we get here?" "Daddy where'd the monsters come from?" "Mommy why are all these ruins around?"

It's going to be the -only- universal thing humanity HAD to pass down during those dark ages. No WAY it gets forgotten and hand waved.

Add on 200 years of dark ages, where countless monsters, demons, supernatural beings, alien invaders preyed on the few pockets of remaining humans. 200 years of virtually zero communication, fending off megadamage threats of all kinds. Then Just as they start to crawl out of the muck, the battle you mention with the magic kingdom that tried to irradicate the humans again.

You act like this was a simple bar fight where a few people got hurt pride. Magic killed billions of humans and utterly reshaped the entire planet. Natural disasters on a scale that would dwarf all previous ones combined. Literal ----100s of years---- of dark ages, not just a few years, but MANY GENERATIONS of people, where monsters of every stripe preyed on the few humans that remained. Then just when they were starting to get on their feet, a magic nation tried to kill them again.

And again your pretending that ANY OF THIS applies

All of it applies. You just don't like it because it more than justifies humanity's collective fear of magic and the supernatural with irrefutable sound logical reasoning.

Not a shred of it counts.
Not a single, solitary bit.
Because the CS has to go back and REWRITE ITS OWN HISTORY to make it work.
And sorry, I don't accept revisionist history here.

The CS rose out of the dark ages. They don't have to rewrite their history for it to be so.

The CS was fine with magic up until 12 PA.
Then suddenly it was genocide time.

You may want to research that.

You want to relate it to 9-11? Lets do so.

3000 people died in 9-11 and utterly changed our society, and we still feel it to this day. The Cheeto President Trump is STILL trying to get an UNCONSTITUTIONAL Muslim ban in place. Every court strikes him down, but the guy that sits in the big chair, keeps trying.

Three thousand people died. Changed modern society and indeed the world.

Now imagine if something (Anything) had killed 7-10 BILLION people.

You act like it ain't no thing. lol

Insanity. That anyone could trust magic after all that is utterly amazing. Expecting people to is crazy.

To bad the CS was fine with magic which proves your argument is false.
Oops
Pesky facts.

The CS wern't 'fine with it', it's literally caused all their problems since the coming of rifts.

No, your trying to pretend that the CS is good guys

The majority of them are. Books say so.

They are not,
They are pure, unadulterated evil
Period

Books prove you're lieing. The books state clearly they're not. Period.

The shmucks that the Proseks have duped are not.
But the CS itself? Yeah, genocide is evil.

Depends on your point of view. "Heroes of light" aren't consider evil when they conduct genocide on demonic forces.

Same thing.

The leadership is 100% evil.

It's not. I've proved that previously. Last week someone defied me to find ONE non evil person in power in the CS. Much less 3. I found 8 or 9 in a few minutes and listed them off. Again you're lieing.

The actions of the leadership is 100% evil

Absurd on the face of it. When you make such hard declarations it's very simple to prove you wrong. Point of fact. The CS protects it's human citizens and provides for them Medically to the point their life span is one of the highest in North America and the world.

The rewriting of history to try and PRETEND that they are 'avenging' and 'worried' about what happened in the Coming of the Rifts. WHEN THEY DID NOT CARE is 100% evil.

No that's what you're 'saying', that's not actually what happened. The books are very clear. You're just counting on people not having them or being too lazy to read them.

Like I said
This is like trying to pretend that it would be justified in OUR WORLD to not just be 'doing a little bit of change'
But actively trying to murder every man woman and child that was muslim

If Muslims killed 8 to 10 billion people, you can bet the farm that they'd be just as villified as magic/dbees/aliens are in Rifts. Heck due to 3,000 deaths they've been villified on our world and many people would be perfectly fine in glassing the entire middle east and calling it done.

Because NO it was NOT the Coming of the Rifts that freaked the CS out in canon.

It freaked HUMANITY out in Canon. We're speaking more than 'Just' magic as well. The Alien invaders have always been a large part of it as well.

It was the events of 12 PA
A fight with one self proclaimed little power...

More lies. At the time it wasn't 'one self proclaimed little power'. It was powerful enough to threaten the fledgling CS to the core. It wasn't a few terrorists crouching in caves with AK47s

...you know, sort of like the US and the Taliban,
But in the CS case their solution is to rewrite history, and go on a genocide bender and murder everyone that is not like them.

All humans do this. It's not fun to think about but "History is written by the winners" All human nations rewite history to their benifit and humans in general go on denocidal benders and murder everyone not like them. You ever hear of the Crusades? Or.... most every human war ever?

That is, 100% pure, unadulterated evil

Again. It depends on your point of view. Noone calls Cyberknights evil when they wipe out demons. They're 'heroes"

Now, people can PRETEND that it was the coming of the rifts.
They can lie about that all they want.
But its not true.
The canon is pretty bloody explicit about it.
And sorry, this is not about CS rewritten history and propaganda. This is about FACTS
and the FACTS are that the CS leadership took a terrorist incident, combined it with a leader that was a genocidal megalomaniac and the result was an empire of evil.

That's some pretty fanciful re-writing of history yourself there Eli

Just like the Third Reich was evil. Even if the Germans were not.
The High Command was evil. The SS was evil.
Same thing applies here.

Doesn't. The books say you're 100% wrong.

Just to refresh my memory again, what was the last Rifts book published? Oh... that's right. Coalition States. Heroes of Humanity.....

And pretending that the Nazi propaganda about the Protocols of Zion were actually true doesn't suddenly make them heroes out to save the world from the Jewish overlords.

Just trying to relate them to nazi's doesn't give you an "I win' button. It's an appeal to emotion and old, and lame.

[HWalsh]

If a character asked, in my game, how they got there Magic won't be the explanation:

"Humanity used to have big bombs, then a big war happened, and they created the Rifts."

[Killer Cyborg]

If a character asked, in my game, how they got there Magic won't be the explanation:

"Humanity used to have big bombs, then a big war happened, and they created the Rifts."

You're free to say whatever you like, but the bombs were just the spark that ignited the magical apocalypse.

[jaymz]

Yup they only triggered the magic event that in turn created the rifts....

[Axelmania]

I think we should distinguish between our metagame knowledge of what caused the Coming of the Rifts and what various factions in Rifts Earth actually know (or merely guess at) when it comes to these things. What do we know they know, for example?

Who actually knows that nukes>PPE>Rifts? Even if you find evidence of nuclear war you don't necessarily know if that happened before monsters invading (causing it) or after (fighting back against it)

Chi-Town had a small magical divison of ~100 so no, they weren't 100% anti-magic always. I expect back then it was like psi-bat except much smaller and even more heavily regulated. Chi-Town dipped its toe in the water but the Invasion of Chi-Town ruined that by changing the people's mind about magic.

Eliakon has there been a universal statement if CS genocide against all mages and all aliens? I only recall more specific statements like genocide against Xiticix (like Lazio) or genocide against the City of Tolkeen.

Genocide against a city is kind of a vague idea to me. Once you disband it there are no more Tolkeenites. Theres nothing about the CS chasing escaping citizens into other dimensions or even into Lazlo.

Genocide against a city is like genocide against a UAR-1 Enforcer. Sure, there are people inside, and attacking their shelter endangers them. If they leave they are heavily inconvenienced. They lose their (mobile) home and the crew might be split up, disrupting their culture.

But it isn't genocide in the classic sense of trying to wipe out an ethnic group. Bulldozing homes certainly sucks but if there is ample warning to leave it, it isn't genocide, it is simply war.

[Blue_Lion]

I think we should distinguish between our metagame knowledge of what caused the Coming of the Rifts and what various factions in Rifts Earth actually know (or merely guess at) when it comes to these things. What do we know they know, for example?

Who actually knows that nukes>PPE>Rifts? Even if you find evidence of nuclear war you don't necessarily know if that happened before monsters invading (causing it) or after (fighting back against it)

Chi-Town had a small magical divison of ~100 so no, they weren't 100% anti-magic always. I expect back then it was like psi-bat except much smaller and even more heavily regulated. Chi-Town dipped its toe in the water but the Invasion of Chi-Town ruined that by changing the people's mind about magic.

Eliakon has there been a universal statement if CS genocide against all mages and all aliens? I only recall more specific statements like genocide against Xiticix (like Lazio) or genocide against the City of Tolkeen.

Genocide against a city is kind of a vague idea to me. Once you disband it there are no more Tolkeenites. Theres nothing about the CS chasing escaping citizens into other dimensions or even into Lazlo.

Genocide against a city is like genocide against a UAR-1 Enforcer. Sure, there are people inside, and attacking their shelter endangers them. If they leave they are heavily inconvenienced. They lose their (mobile) home and the crew might be split up, disrupting their culture.

But it isn't genocide in the classic sense of trying to wipe out an ethnic group. Bulldozing homes certainly sucks but if there is ample warning to leave it, it isn't genocide, it is simply war.

My gash so much propaganda your statement is beyond wrong.

Killing every one in a city is genocide, killing every one in a robot is not. War becomes genocide when you target non combatants of group X for death.

[jaymz]

Except he is not wrong in that once they left Tolkeen lands they were more or less left alone. True genocide would infer they're being hunted down and killed as well.

[Eagle]

I think we should distinguish between our metagame knowledge of what caused the Coming of the Rifts and what various factions in Rifts Earth actually know (or merely guess at) when it comes to these things. What do we know they know, for example?

Who actually knows that nukes>PPE>Rifts? Even if you find evidence of nuclear war you don't necessarily know if that happened before monsters invading (causing it) or after (fighting back against it)

Chi-Town had a small magical divison of ~100 so no, they weren't 100% anti-magic always. I expect back then it was like psi-bat except much smaller and even more heavily regulated. Chi-Town dipped its toe in the water but the Invasion of Chi-Town ruined that by changing the people's mind about magic.

Eliakon has there been a universal statement if CS genocide against all mages and all aliens? I only recall more specific statements like genocide against Xiticix (like Lazio) or genocide against the City of Tolkeen.

Genocide against a city is kind of a vague idea to me. Once you disband it there are no more Tolkeenites. Theres nothing about the CS chasing escaping citizens into other dimensions or even into Lazlo.

Genocide against a city is like genocide against a UAR-1 Enforcer. Sure, there are people inside, and attacking their shelter endangers them. If they leave they are heavily inconvenienced. They lose their (mobile) home and the crew might be split up, disrupting their culture.

But it isn't genocide in the classic sense of trying to wipe out an ethnic group. Bulldozing homes certainly sucks but if there is ample warning to leave it, it isn't genocide, it is simply war.

My gash so much propaganda your statement is beyond wrong.

Killing every one in a city is genocide, killing every one in a robot is not. War becomes genocide when you target non combatants of group X for death.

No, genocide means killing everyone of a particular ethnic group.

[Nightmask]

I think we should distinguish between our metagame knowledge of what caused the Coming of the Rifts and what various factions in Rifts Earth actually know (or merely guess at) when it comes to these things. What do we know they know, for example?

Who actually knows that nukes>PPE>Rifts? Even if you find evidence of nuclear war you don't necessarily know if that happened before monsters invading (causing it) or after (fighting back against it)

Chi-Town had a small magical divison of ~100 so no, they weren't 100% anti-magic always. I expect back then it was like psi-bat except much smaller and even more heavily regulated. Chi-Town dipped its toe in the water but the Invasion of Chi-Town ruined that by changing the people's mind about magic.

Eliakon has there been a universal statement if CS genocide against all mages and all aliens? I only recall more specific statements like genocide against Xiticix (like Lazio) or genocide against the City of Tolkeen.

Genocide against a city is kind of a vague idea to me. Once you disband it there are no more Tolkeenites. Theres nothing about the CS chasing escaping citizens into other dimensions or even into Lazlo.

Genocide against a city is like genocide against a UAR-1 Enforcer. Sure, there are people inside, and attacking their shelter endangers them. If they leave they are heavily inconvenienced. They lose their (mobile) home and the crew might be split up, disrupting their culture.

But it isn't genocide in the classic sense of trying to wipe out an ethnic group. Bulldozing homes certainly sucks but if there is ample warning to leave it, it isn't genocide, it is simply war.

My gash so much propaganda your statement is beyond wrong.

Killing every one in a city is genocide, killing every one in a robot is not. War becomes genocide when you target non combatants of group X for death.

No, genocide means killing everyone of a particular ethnic group.

No, genocide covers killing everyone or trying to kill everyone in a particular group, it does not have to be a particular ethnic group. The CS meets and exceeds every definition and classification of genocide that exists. It's not a matter of opinion, it's not debatable, it's the fact of the matter. It has committed genocide against countless groups large and small, the largest when it waged unjustified war against Tolkeen, that's the reality of the CS.

[Axelmania]

I have never seen any definitions of genocide specify whether or not they had to be non-combatants.

I don't really see how people who choose to stay behind and defend a city when it is attacked qualify as an ethnic group. It wasn't genocide for the allies to invade Berlin in WW2 for example.

The CS has concerns which humans didn't in WW2. There are shapeshifters, teleporters, people you can't disarm, summoners. Capture becomes much less feasible. Surrender a much more dangerous ruse.

I can't avoid that the CS invasion was at some point called genocide (forget where but one if the SoT books) but this is clearly in the broad sense where almost anything can be called a genocide.

What the CS did was overthrow the monarchy of Creed. Was it genocide for the United States to oust the British monarchy?

If being a member of a kingdom is defined as a culture then suddenly war against ANY kingdom becomes "cultural genocide".

Anyway... the books clearly communicate that genocide isn't inherently bad, since Mary Sue Tarn's Kingdom of Light Lazio is engaged in genocide against the Xiticix.

So the argument has to be made that this genocide was a bad one.

We know from the Lazio > genocide > Xiticix example that simply wiping out an invader who takes your land and murders your people is considered genocide.

So why do we keep coming back to the word like its a bad thing? Genocide can be good, so why isn't genocide against Tolkeen like genocide against Duluth Hive?

[eliakon]

I have never seen any definitions of genocide specify whether or not they had to be non-combatants.

I don't really see how people who choose to stay behind and defend a city when it is attacked qualify as an ethnic group. It wasn't genocide for the allies to invade Berlin in WW2 for example.

The CS has concerns which humans didn't in WW2. There are shapeshifters, teleporters, people you can't disarm, summoners. Capture becomes much less feasible. Surrender a much more dangerous ruse.

I can't avoid that the CS invasion was at some point called genocide (forget where but one if the SoT books) but this is clearly in the broad sense where almost anything can be called a genocide.

What the CS did was overthrow the monarchy of Creed. Was it genocide for the United States to oust the British monarchy?

If being a member of a kingdom is defined as a culture then suddenly war against ANY kingdom becomes "cultural genocide".

Anyway... the books clearly communicate that genocide isn't inherently bad, since Mary Sue Tarn's Kingdom of Light Lazio is engaged in genocide against the Xiticix.

So the argument has to be made that this genocide was a bad one.

We know from the Lazio > genocide > Xiticix example that simply wiping out an invader who takes your land and murders your people is considered genocide.

So why do we keep coming back to the word like its a bad thing? Genocide can be good, so why isn't genocide against Tolkeen like genocide against Duluth Hive?

Because the CS is the Xictic here?
The CS is the ones invading the other nations, killing them and taking their land.
The CS is the cancer here.

Then there is the little matter of Self Defense,
The CS is the aggressor, Lazlo and Tolkeen are acting in defense from attackers who are trying to kill them.
The argument that since someone has a right to defend themselves against you, you have the right to attack them is simply ludicrous.

The CS is the evil here.

[boring7]

I'm not going to research a claim that nobody here has made.
The claim is that the Great Cataclysm was caused by magic, not that it was caused by a magic ritual.

You made the claim when you made the analogy. You're STILL making the claim by saying the Great Cataclysm was caused by magic. Mostly by failing to define "magic".

Please cite your sources for how each threat arrived.

Also, note the difference between "could have been brought in by a single mage," and "were definitely brought in by magic," and in "were definitely brought in by a single mage."

Nah, you're the one making the claim, so it's on you.

MY standards are simple and unchanging:
-Magic caused the Great Cataclysm
-Magic has brought countless world or galaxy level threats to Rifts Earth.
-The Great Cataclysm was dangerous. So are world/galaxy level threats.
Ergo, Magic is dangerous.

You forgot "Magic is inherently more dangerous than technology" and "magic is unnatural." Two claims which remain unsupported.

YOU're the one who's all over the place, swapping questions and positions as it suits you.
If you want to claim that magic hasn't brought dangers to Rifts Earth, then stick with that claim and prove it.
If you want to claim that the dangers that magic has brought to Rifts Earth aren't dangerous, then stick with that claim and prove it.
If you want to claim that the Great Cataclysm wasn't caused by magic, then stick with that claim and prove it.
If you want to claim that the Great Cataclysm wasn't dangerous, then stick with that claim and prove it.
If you want to have any claim you make taken seriously, make that claim clearly, and stick to it.
Quit dancing around.
Admit when something is true, even if you don't like it. (i.e., "PPE is magic," or "the Great Cataclysm was caused by Magic," etc.)
Don't just try to change the subject.

There's a big pile of strawmen. Magic isn't more dangerous than technology, and they are incomparable because it's a pile of subjectivity and ********. That's my claim. That's all my claim has ever been.

Hurling down a strawman while you try to dodge the point doesn't change the facts.
PPE is magic.
Ley Lines are Magic.
The Great Cataclysm was magic.
These are simple, basic facts that anybody who has read any of the main Rifts books should KNOW.

The average human child has 5d6 PPE and therefore "detects as magic" (if they roll just a tiny bit above average, my mistake) to a Line Walker. (Not to a psychic though, which was what I was originally using as my baseline). It is a simple, logical deconstruction of your various statements.

If a character asked, in my game, how they got there Magic won't be the explanation:

"Humanity used to have big bombs, then a big war happened, and they created the Rifts."

You're free to say whatever you like, but the bombs were just the spark that ignited the magical apocalypse.

So...is it established in canon anywhere that most humans were killed by the rifts? I was under the impression most people were killed by the bombs, and that overwhelming number of deaths is what opened the rifts.

[boring7]

I have never seen any definitions of genocide specify whether or not they had to be non-combatants.

I don't really see how people who choose to stay behind and defend a city when it is attacked qualify as an ethnic group. It wasn't genocide for the allies to invade Berlin in WW2 for example.

The CS has concerns which humans didn't in WW2. There are shapeshifters, teleporters, people you can't disarm, summoners. Capture becomes much less feasible. Surrender a much more dangerous ruse.

I can't avoid that the CS invasion was at some point called genocide (forget where but one if the SoT books) but this is clearly in the broad sense where almost anything can be called a genocide.

What the CS did was overthrow the monarchy of Creed. Was it genocide for the United States to oust the British monarchy?

If being a member of a kingdom is defined as a culture then suddenly war against ANY kingdom becomes "cultural genocide".

Anyway... the books clearly communicate that genocide isn't inherently bad, since Mary Sue Tarn's Kingdom of Light Lazio is engaged in genocide against the Xiticix.

So the argument has to be made that this genocide was a bad one.

We know from the Lazio > genocide > Xiticix example that simply wiping out an invader who takes your land and murders your people is considered genocide.

So why do we keep coming back to the word like its a bad thing? Genocide can be good, so why isn't genocide against Tolkeen like genocide against Duluth Hive?

Because the CS is the Xictic here?
The CS is the ones invading the other nations, killing them and taking their land.
The CS is the cancer here.

Then there is the little matter of Self Defense,
The CS is the aggressor, Lazlo and Tolkeen are acting in defense from attackers who are trying to kill them.
The argument that since someone has a right to defend themselves against you, you have the right to attack them is simply ludicrous.

The CS is the evil here.

Not to mention genocide is plan B. Not that it really needed to be.

[Killer Cyborg]

double-post.
Ignore this one.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm not going to research a claim that nobody here has made.
The claim is that the Great Cataclysm was caused by magic, not that it was caused by a magic ritual.

You made the claim when you made the analogy.

Nope.

You're STILL making the claim by saying the Great Cataclysm was caused by magic. Mostly by failing to define "magic".

Jesus.
Do you seriously need me to look up and retype the Palladium definition of "magic" for you...?
Why the HECK are you even arguing, if you don't already know the definition of a key term?
Exactly how basic do you need me to get with this, and why haven't you read the books yourself?

Please cite your sources for how each threat arrived.

Also, note the difference between "could have been brought in by a single mage," and "were definitely brought in by magic," and in "were definitely brought in by a single mage."

Nah, you're the one making the claim, so it's on you.

That response doesn't even fit what I said.
I asked you to cite your sources for YOUR claim.
Then I asked you to note the differences between different distinct concepts.
Neither of those is a claim that I have made.

MY standards are simple and unchanging:
-Magic caused the Great Cataclysm
-Magic has brought countless world or galaxy level threats to Rifts Earth.
-The Great Cataclysm was dangerous. So are world/galaxy level threats.
Ergo, Magic is dangerous.

You forgot "Magic is inherently more dangerous than technology" and "magic is unnatural." Two claims which remain unsupported.

Hey, does that mean that you agree that magic is dangerous?
Because the statement that I entered the discussion in support of was this:
"claiming that magic isn't dangerous is ludicrous."
If you agree with that statement, then what are you arguing about...?
IF you don't agree with that statement, then by all means try to attack that argument, instead of making up new ones.

YOU're the one who's all over the place, swapping questions and positions as it suits you.
If you want to claim that magic hasn't brought dangers to Rifts Earth, then stick with that claim and prove it.
If you want to claim that the dangers that magic has brought to Rifts Earth aren't dangerous, then stick with that claim and prove it.
If you want to claim that the Great Cataclysm wasn't caused by magic, then stick with that claim and prove it.
If you want to claim that the Great Cataclysm wasn't dangerous, then stick with that claim and prove it.
If you want to have any claim you make taken seriously, make that claim clearly, and stick to it.
Quit dancing around.
Admit when something is true, even if you don't like it. (i.e., "PPE is magic," or "the Great Cataclysm was caused by Magic," etc.)
Don't just try to change the subject.

There's a big pile of strawmen. Magic isn't more dangerous than technology,

THAT is a separate discussion than the one we've been having, which is whether or not magic is dangerous.
If you agree that it's dangerous, then say so.
If you don't agree, then say that, and try to support your counter claim.

Hurling down a strawman while you try to dodge the point doesn't change the facts.
PPE is magic.
Ley Lines are Magic.
The Great Cataclysm was magic.
These are simple, basic facts that anybody who has read any of the main Rifts books should KNOW.

The average human child has 5d6 PPE and therefore "detects as magic" (if they roll just a tiny bit above average, my mistake) to a Line Walker.

Cite your sources, if you have any.
If your source is p. 113 of RUE, then no, human children do not "detect as magic."
Mages can detect the magic energy within them, but that's not the same thing as the children "detecting as magic."
Do you understand the distinction?

If a character asked, in my game, how they got there Magic won't be the explanation:

"Humanity used to have big bombs, then a big war happened, and they created the Rifts."

You're free to say whatever you like, but the bombs were just the spark that ignited the magical apocalypse.

So...is it established in canon anywhere that most humans were killed by the rifts?

That's a strawman.
There is a difference between "the apocalypse was a magical event" and "most humans were killed by the rifts."
Do you understand the difference between those two things?

I was under the impression most people were killed by the bombs, and that overwhelming number of deaths is what opened the rifts.

READ.
THE.
BOOKS.

RMB 7
Nuclear holocaust ignited the destruction of the world as we know it, but it was not the primary instrument of destruction. The sudden destruction of a billion people triggered a surge in the ley lines. All that psychic energy was released at once. The sudden influx of PPE sent the energy rippling through the mystical crossroads of earth like an earthquake. Ley lines flowed with energy that had not been felt for a million years. The energy surged and pulsed and crisscossed across the planet at the speed of light. At ley line intersections (nexus points), rifts in time and space tore open, releasing even more energy. The earth shuddered and heaved. Millions more died, increasing the energy level of the rifts.
The oceans leapt from their basin and washed over the land. Hundreds of millions more died, their PPE drawn into the ley lines, and the natural energies doubled again. A chain reaction was unleashed that could not be halted...
...For every million or billion of lives lost, the ley lines surged and destroyed billions more; a nightmare of geometric principles.

FYI, RMB p. 7 is quite literally the very first page of the original Rifts book that was NOT simply a title page, copyright info, table of contents, etc.
The very first time we're told anything about the apocalypse, we're told that the nuclear exchange only ignited it, and that PPE chain reactions through ley lines were the actual apocalypse.
This is why I say that it's not even Rifts 101.
This is the first and most basic information that we are given about the game setting.
This is how KS introduced us to the world of Rifts, and it's how I (and other GMs I know) have introduced players to the setting for the past 27 years.
That's why I'm amazed that you don't have a grasp on this information--it's the basis for the setting that you're trying to describe, and it's been there since Day 1, for anybody and everybody who reads the books to see and understand, even if they don't bother to read very far.
They quite literally have to only have read the very first page that describes the game.

Edit:
And just to pre-empt you trying to say, "well, I came in at RUE..."

RUE 11
The end of human civilization came without warning. One moment all was right in the world, the next moment, absolute chaos reigned. The current popular theory among scholars and mages at Lazlow and Tolkeen is that something caused the ley lines to surge and explode with energy. That surge was akin to a volcano erupting and spewing forth destruction. Only all the world's ley lines erupted at the same time, each creating its own wave of destruction that washed over the entire world. Great storms, a thousand times the size of the worst Ley Line Storm you may have ever experienced, swept the planet one after another...

The nuclear exchange is downplayed in RUE. It's a less of a deal post-RUE than it originally was, and it originally was only just a match dropped into a pool of gasoline that was ready to ignite.

RUE 185
The overflow of magic energy caused the Great Cataclysm

[Shark_Force]

broadly speaking, genocide is to attempt/intend to kill all members of a nation, culture, etc purely because they are members of that nation, culture, etc.

the CS wants to commit genocide because it doesn't care if the d-bees are dangerous warriors or babies that were born a minute ago, the d-bee needs to be killed as far as they're concerned. the CS wants to commit genocide because all mages, whether they are dangerous or not, need to be killed as far as they are concerned.

in contrast, if you want to kill someone because they are currently trying to kill you (which is the case with the xiticix), that is not genocide. so, for example, when we know that lazlo has attempted communication with the xiticix and has tried other means to keep the xiticix from killing everything in their path, we know that lazlo is not interested in genocide, they're interested in protecting themselves from a real threat. all signs point to the fact that if the xiticix suddenly proposed a peace treaty with lazlo, lazlo would accept it.

so no, people wanting to kill the xiticix is not necessarily genocide. it could be (the CS as an organization, for example, would likely want to kill the xiticix even if the bugs were completely peaceful and harmless). but if you're just wanting to do it to keep yourself and your family (friends, home, etc) safe, then it isn't genocide.