Proof that the CS is Evil

[Axelmania]

I've seen people make a lot of flawed arguments for this in the past, and been accused of being biased in CS favor for poking holes in them. I'd like to demonstrate my neutrality and objectivity by offering a solid critique from the canon.

Dimension Book 2 (Phase World by CJ Carrella) page 108 has a section called General Attitude / Culture.

It is described as a general alignment of a race. It measures not individual alignment but what the culture considers right and wrong.

The worst, roughly equivalent to Diabolic is Genocidal Xenophobes (GX). No examples are given.

Second worst, roughly equivalent to Aberrant or Miscreant is Aggressive Racial Supremacists (ARS) The kreeghor and Splugorth and Coalition States are described as clear examples. It also says the Coalition is leaning toward the GX category.

Third worst, typically equivalent to Aberrant or Anarchist is Warrior Race (WR) Only the Wolfen and Seljuk are given as examples. It refers to the Genocidal Xenophobes and Agressive Supremacists as "unworthy villains".

So despite the majority of CS citizens and soldiers not being evil (the majority are good and and selfish) according to CJ Carrella the CS (presumably as of 105 PA) did have an evil culture.

What we could argue about is whether to call it a miscreant one or an aberrant one, I suppose.

No other groups on Rifts Earth are discussed so they aren't necessarily any better.

One problem I do have with Carella's take here is it seems to imply that xenophobia and racial supremism are the only evil attitudes a culture can have. It doesn't seem to reflect other aspects.

What of Apocalypse demons for example, who may let anybody become a witch and not be racist in any way, yet murderous toward all living things? What of a race that has an equal opoortunitt "eat the weak" policy?

[Killer Cyborg]

Interesting find!

[Library Ogre]

One problem I do have with Carella's take here is it seems to imply that xenophobia and racial supremism are the only evil attitudes a culture can have. It doesn't seem to reflect other aspects.

What of Apocalypse demons for example, who may let anybody become a witch and not be racist in any way, yet murderous toward all living things? What of a race that has an equal opoortunitt "eat the weak" policy?

I would argue that, just because Apocalypse Demons are willing to USE anybody doesn't make them less Genocidal Xenophobes. They're still going to kill everyone... they're just going to use some folks as willing patsies to help.

[taalismn]

Apocalypse Demons...well, they're demons...that sez it all. They're not 'undead peoples of confused allegiance', they're DEMONS.
Of course, such a blanket condemnation of an entire interlinked society would be arguable grist for a megaversal legal lawsuit on the grounds of discrimination, but that's Metagaming Palladium with a John Grisham theme.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

One problem I do have with Carella's take here is it seems to imply that xenophobia and racial supremism are the only evil attitudes a culture can have. It doesn't seem to reflect other aspects.

What of Apocalypse demons for example, who may let anybody become a witch and not be racist in any way, yet murderous toward all living things? What of a race that has an equal opoortunitt "eat the weak" policy?

I would argue that, just because Apocalypse Demons are willing to USE anybody doesn't make them less Genocidal Xenophobes. They're still going to kill everyone... they're just going to use some folks as willing patsies to help.

Yeah but in some folks eyes they are less evil then the every one in the coalition.

[Axelmania]

I guess it is genocide if you want to genocide all races...

But at least it isn't a racist genocide.

Given how sometimes Carella content is swept under the rug I have to wonder how much impact this phase world statement holds.

Im not sure in the world book sequence when DB2 came out.

If it was after 10 where FQ is a war target but before 12 when psychic tolerance is expanded or Final Siege when peace is made with FQ that could have shifted them toward leaning toward being a Warrior Race, for example.

DB2 date in respect to WB6 could also be useful. Diplomacy with a nation of dwarven technowizards isn't anything to shrug at.

CS doesnt seem impossibly far off from the Anarchist/Aberrant Warrior Race classification.

What nations on Rifts Earth do people think fit within that? NGR and Japan maybe? Dweomer?

City of Brass seems like a good example of why to look outside race. They aren't racial supremacists like Atlantis but they certainly seem diabolical in nature. They don't seem xenophobic but the hostility towards Chi-Town does seem genocidal, if we are accepting that as a label which can apply to people on the basis of city of residence.

I still don't really like it. In WW2 the US didn't seem genocidal toward Japanese, as they were not wiped out on surrender and became an ally. But two cities did get nuked. Desire to stop a threat even to the point of destroying cities doesn't seem like enough to call genocide.

[Misfit KotLD]

I thought the early Nazi allusions gave it away.

[Axelmania]

Naz, we didn't know Karl was diabolic until SB1.

I'm wondering if CWC alignments from Siembieda overrode Carrella's statement. Wouldn't bsnthe first time another author slipped something in there that Kevin probably didn't approve of (ie Sumimoto shadow a canonizing his Murder Mage OCC in Splynn Dimensional Market)

[Misfit KotLD]

I'd call SB1 early, but yeah, canon is far too malleable here.

[Sammmael]

Is the fact that the coalition has death camps (Coalition Wars 05) for mages and D-Bees sufficient evidence that they're evil?

[Axelmania]

Shadows of Evil pg 102 is titled "A Secret to Hide". It clarifies that the death camps are DROGUE'S baby. In fact:

"While such foul places may sound like something the Coalition States would condone, the Death Camps were never sanctioned by the Coalition High Command or Emperor Prosek, neither of whom know anything about them."

Emperor + High Command represent what the Coalition is far more than Micander Drogue (read: ROGUE) does. There's different levels of Diabolic.

If we can agree to not let Drogue's actions speak for all of the Coalition States, I can agree to not let a diabolic Tolkeen general's actions speak for all of the City of Tolkeen.

[HWalsh]

Shadows of Evil pg 102 is titled "A Secret to Hide". It clarifies that the death camps are DROGUE'S baby. In fact:

"While such foul places may sound like something the Coalition States would condone, the Death Camps were never sanctioned by the Coalition High Command or Emperor Prosek, neither of whom know anything about them."

Emperor + High Command represent what the Coalition is far more than Micander Drogue (read: ROGUE) does. There's different levels of Diabolic.

If we can agree to not let Drogue's actions speak for all of the Coalition States, I can agree to not let a diabolic Tolkeen general's actions speak for all of the City of Tolkeen.

To play the word games that are played to defend the CS so often...

The text doesn't indicate that the Emperor or High Command would be against them. In fact the text seems to indicate that it is something they'd usually support.

[Axelmania]

To play a word game properly you need to offer and argument. You think "may sound like something the Coalition States would condone" is adequate?

"sound like" is simply nodding to the CS having a bad reputation, not actually being bad.

If they would support it then why is Drogue so adament about covering it up? Why is it "A SECRET TO HIDE"?

Will clarify this for you with some further statements from the ASTH section.

As more troops roll into the region, along with what passes for the Coalition States' "free press" (under the direct supervision
of the CS Information and Propaganda Department, headed by Joseph Prosek the Second), General Drogue has more than his share of problems, but a big one is the Death Camps.
..
the Death Camps are just one more black mark that needs to be covered up. The General believes he can coverup this "little indiscretion" by completely destroying the concentration camps.
..
if there is no evidence left standing, no physical structures or prisoners, there are only unsubstantiated rumors

This would not be a 'big problem' or a "black mark" or "needs to be covered" if it is something they would condone.

[guardiandashi]

To play a word game properly you need to offer and argument. You think "may sound like something the Coalition States would condone" is adequate?

"sound like" is simply nodding to the CS having a bad reputation, not actually being bad.

If they would support it then why is Drogue so adament about covering it up? Why is it "A SECRET TO HIDE"?

Will clarify this for you with some further statements from the ASTH section.

As more troops roll into the region, along with what passes for the Coalition States' "free press" (under the direct supervision
of the CS Information and Propaganda Department, headed by Joseph Prosek the Second), General Drogue has more than his share of problems, but a big one is the Death Camps.
..
the Death Camps are just one more black mark that needs to be covered up. The General believes he can coverup this "little indiscretion" by completely destroying the concentration camps.
..
if there is no evidence left standing, no physical structures or prisoners, there are only unsubstantiated rumors

This would not be a 'big problem' or a "black mark" or "needs to be covered" if it is something they would condone.

to be honest yes and no.

based on everything else we know about the coalition its more of its a big deal because he did it WITHOUT ORDERS, not so much that he did it.

the Coalition especially their leadership totally falls into the "evil empire" definition. the issue with a lot of those kind of things is that the "boss" is often a control freek in addition to being an evil guy.
for most of the control freeks if you do things you weren't ordered/authorized to do, it doesn't matter if it was something they WOULD approve you doing if you asked, its that you DIDN'T get permission that causes issues.

I know its an older movie, but I was watching Flash Gordon http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080745/ the other day, and there was the big fight scene in the throne room, where one of his henchmen (majordomo) gets all huffy because two of his "generals" were about to start a fight and kill each other. it wasn't an issue that they were going to kill each other per say (Ming proceeds to kill another "general" a couple minutes later, ) but the fact that Ming did not authorize or order the killing that was the issue.

[HWalsh]

This would not be a 'big problem' or a "black mark" or "needs to be covered" if it is something they would condone.

Sure it would. He did it without authorization. Meaning that the information gathered from interrogation wasn't going back to the chain of command. He used CS troops and CS materials without authorization during a war-time scenario.

We know the CS authorized prototype skelebots to be used against civilians as tests so they don't care about killing, murdering, pillaging, and lying about it. What they don't approve of is misappropriation of war materials.

[Axelmania]

based on everything else we know about the coalition its more of its a big deal because he did it WITHOUT ORDERS, not so much that he did it.

I don't agree with this objection. Drogue is a general. Generals are expected to make decisions. Karl is no fool, he knows how to delegate power. He isn't going to micro-manage every single aspect of the war, that's what his military officers are for.

the Coalition especially their leadership totally falls into the "evil empire" definition. the issue with a lot of those kind of things is that the "boss" is often a control freek in addition to being an evil guy.
for most of the control freeks if you do things you weren't ordered/authorized to do, it doesn't matter if it was something they WOULD approve you doing if you asked, its that you DIDN'T get permission that causes issues.

Karl isn't going to get every single person in the CS army to ask permission for everything. I've seen no indications of that.

I know its an older movie, but I was watching Flash Gordon http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080745/ the other day, and there was the big fight scene in the throne room, where one of his henchmen (majordomo) gets all huffy because two of his "generals" were about to start a fight and kill each other. it wasn't an issue that they were going to kill each other per say (Ming proceeds to kill another "general" a couple minutes later, ) but the fact that Ming did not authorize or order the killing that was the issue.

The general he killed 2 minutes later, what had he done?

This would not be a 'big problem' or a "black mark" or "needs to be covered" if it is something they would condone.

Sure it would. He did it without authorization. Meaning that the information gathered from interrogation wasn't going back to the chain of command. He used CS troops and CS materials without authorization during a war-time scenario.

We know the CS authorized prototype skelebots to be used against civilians as tests so they don't care about killing, murdering, pillaging, and lying about it. What they don't approve of is misappropriation of war materials.

Until we are told the exact specifics about the death camps that high command and Karl would have objected to, there's no reason to make assumptions about the nature of those potential objections.

Drogue is a 4-stripe General (Overkill 19) this means (CWC 50) that he is the second-highest possible rank. Only the solitary 5-star "General of the Army" Charles Reed Baxter (CWC 36) outranks him. He outranks Cabot (who ran the CS for a year between Joseph's death and Karl's election) and Kashbrook (who runs all of Lone Star) so running prison camps is certainly within the realm of his jurisdiction over resources.

Someone of his rank simply would not need to consult the High Command to do things like run a death camp if such things were smiled upon. If it was simply a matter of resources, that is something he is expected to do without being micromanaged by the 2 people (Karl and Baxter) who outrank him.

CWC 36 does say this:

If the order is coming from one of the lower ranking Generals, even someone like General Cabot, he or she must have cleared the operation with General Charles Reed Baxter at High Command.

But Cabot is merely a 3-bar (I think this means "Lieutenant General" which is 3 stripes on 50) so him being classified as "lower ranking" doesn't mean that Drogue is considered "lower ranking".

If it included Generals too, then you would simply say "if the order is coming from anyone but Baxter".

37 is clear on this:

After the High Command has made these decisions the responsibility for putting the plan into action is delegated to subordinate officers in Regular Army units.

Drogue was simply putting the plan into action. How to put it into action is his purview.

So the problem can't be "you allocated resources in a way you didn't receive approval for" it's obviously that he did something they would not have approved of.

If it was something they would have approved of, and he needed permission, I think he would have simply put in the request rather than put himself at risk unnecessarily.

[guardiandashi]

based on everything else we know about the coalition its more of its a big deal because he did it WITHOUT ORDERS, not so much that he did it.

I don't agree with this objection. Drogue is a general. Generals are expected to make decisions. Karl is no fool, he knows how to delegate power. He isn't going to micro-manage every single aspect of the war, that's what his military officers are for.

the Coalition especially their leadership totally falls into the "evil empire" definition. the issue with a lot of those kind of things is that the "boss" is often a control freek in addition to being an evil guy.
for most of the control freeks if you do things you weren't ordered/authorized to do, it doesn't matter if it was something they WOULD approve you doing if you asked, its that you DIDN'T get permission that causes issues.

Karl isn't going to get every single person in the CS army to ask permission for everything. I've seen no indications of that.

I know its an older movie, but I was watching Flash Gordon http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080745/ the other day, and there was the big fight scene in the throne room, where one of his henchmen (majordomo) gets all huffy because two of his "generals" were about to start a fight and kill each other. it wasn't an issue that they were going to kill each other per say (Ming proceeds to kill another "general" a couple minutes later, ) but the fact that Ming did not authorize or order the killing that was the issue.

The general he killed 2 minutes later, what had he done?

This would not be a 'big problem' or a "black mark" or "needs to be covered" if it is something they would condone.

Sure it would. He did it without authorization. Meaning that the information gathered from interrogation wasn't going back to the chain of command. He used CS troops and CS materials without authorization during a war-time scenario.

We know the CS authorized prototype skelebots to be used against civilians as tests so they don't care about killing, murdering, pillaging, and lying about it. What they don't approve of is misappropriation of war materials.

Until we are told the exact specifics about the death camps that high command and Karl would have objected to, there's no reason to make assumptions about the nature of those potential objections.

Drogue is a 4-stripe General (Overkill 19) this means (CWC 50) that he is the second-highest possible rank. Only the solitary 5-star "General of the Army" Charles Reed Baxter (CWC 36) outranks him. He outranks Cabot (who ran the CS for a year between Joseph's death and Karl's election) and Kashbrook (who runs all of Lone Star) so running prison camps is certainly within the realm of his jurisdiction over resources.

Someone of his rank simply would not need to consult the High Command to do things like run a death camp if such things were smiled upon. If it was simply a matter of resources, that is something he is expected to do without being micromanaged by the 2 people (Karl and Baxter) who outrank him.

CWC 36 does say this:

If the order is coming from one of the lower ranking Generals, even someone like General Cabot, he or she must have cleared the operation with General Charles Reed Baxter at High Command.

But Cabot is merely a 3-bar (I think this means "Lieutenant General" which is 3 stripes on 50) so him being classified as "lower ranking" doesn't mean that Drogue is considered "lower ranking".

If it included Generals too, then you would simply say "if the order is coming from anyone but Baxter".

37 is clear on this:

After the High Command has made these decisions the responsibility for putting the plan into action is delegated to subordinate officers in Regular Army units.

Drogue was simply putting the plan into action. How to put it into action is his purview.

So the problem can't be "you allocated resources in a way you didn't receive approval for" it's obviously that he did something they would not have approved of.

If it was something they would have approved of, and he needed permission, I think he would have simply put in the request rather than put himself at risk unnecessarily.

the issue is that even in the coalition there are policies and Rules of engagement now granted the rules of engagement they follow would get them up on war crimes if someone used them today.

the issue with General Drogue is that he wasn't FOLLOWING approved policy HE decided to setup extermination camps when there wasn't an approved policy to use them that means he was taking it upon himself to SET policy. THAT is the issue and that is where he overstepped his authority, in addition he tried to cover it up another BIG issue.

now the way it works is the overall government (or ruler) decides what the policy IS the generals even 4 and 5 star ones EXECUTE policy, they do NOT SET POLICY period full stop.

the generals can interpret HOW they do their jobs and follow the orders and policies they are given.

as far as Karl having every private coming to him when they have questions about orders and policy that is of course silly. those would be dealt with by the chain of command. but the generals are a bit different as they are his senior leadership part of their JOB, is to on those times when certain aspects of their job are questionable is to ask for clarification.

to use an example someone is told "field test these new combat robot prototypes." they are supposed to (within standard rules of engagement, and testing protocols, do the testing. ) if someone was told to test the unit (on a range) and they decided to go attack another country of course they are going to get in trouble. That is effectively what Drogue did.

[HWalsh]

Until we are told the exact specifics about the death camps that high command and Karl would have objected to, there's no reason to make assumptions about the nature of those potential objections.

Why not? You did.

You assume that the CS high command would disapprove, insinuating and insisting, that the reason why was because he kept it hidden. We have provided just as plausible a scenario for you. Even more so as you have shown a lack of understanding of military protocol.

A General, no General, can set policy.

The CS policy, officially, going into the war was, according to SOT, to kill all mages and d-bees. They were not to be captured. They were to be killed. Anyone allowing one to escape, or even showing kindness to one, was to be subject to court martial. They are enemies of humanity and were to be killed without mercy.

He broke that policy by capturing them. Holding them without telling high command he was going to do so, and had experiments performed on them. The death camps he set up were in direct opposition to official (see court martial-based) orders. Therefor, the CS may have approved of the camps if they had thought of them, but they did not.

[HWalsh]

based on everything else we know about the coalition its more of its a big deal because he did it WITHOUT ORDERS, not so much that he did it.

I don't agree with this objection. Drogue is a general. Generals are expected to make decisions. Karl is no fool, he knows how to delegate power. He isn't going to micro-manage every single aspect of the war, that's what his military officers are for.

the Coalition especially their leadership totally falls into the "evil empire" definition. the issue with a lot of those kind of things is that the "boss" is often a control freek in addition to being an evil guy.
for most of the control freeks if you do things you weren't ordered/authorized to do, it doesn't matter if it was something they WOULD approve you doing if you asked, its that you DIDN'T get permission that causes issues.

Karl isn't going to get every single person in the CS army to ask permission for everything. I've seen no indications of that.

I know its an older movie, but I was watching Flash Gordon http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080745/ the other day, and there was the big fight scene in the throne room, where one of his henchmen (majordomo) gets all huffy because two of his "generals" were about to start a fight and kill each other. it wasn't an issue that they were going to kill each other per say (Ming proceeds to kill another "general" a couple minutes later, ) but the fact that Ming did not authorize or order the killing that was the issue.

The general he killed 2 minutes later, what had he done?

This would not be a 'big problem' or a "black mark" or "needs to be covered" if it is something they would condone.

Sure it would. He did it without authorization. Meaning that the information gathered from interrogation wasn't going back to the chain of command. He used CS troops and CS materials without authorization during a war-time scenario.

We know the CS authorized prototype skelebots to be used against civilians as tests so they don't care about killing, murdering, pillaging, and lying about it. What they don't approve of is misappropriation of war materials.

Until we are told the exact specifics about the death camps that high command and Karl would have objected to, there's no reason to make assumptions about the nature of those potential objections.

Drogue is a 4-stripe General (Overkill 19) this means (CWC 50) that he is the second-highest possible rank. Only the solitary 5-star "General of the Army" Charles Reed Baxter (CWC 36) outranks him. He outranks Cabot (who ran the CS for a year between Joseph's death and Karl's election) and Kashbrook (who runs all of Lone Star) so running prison camps is certainly within the realm of his jurisdiction over resources.

Someone of his rank simply would not need to consult the High Command to do things like run a death camp if such things were smiled upon. If it was simply a matter of resources, that is something he is expected to do without being micromanaged by the 2 people (Karl and Baxter) who outrank him.

CWC 36 does say this:

If the order is coming from one of the lower ranking Generals, even someone like General Cabot, he or she must have cleared the operation with General Charles Reed Baxter at High Command.

But Cabot is merely a 3-bar (I think this means "Lieutenant General" which is 3 stripes on 50) so him being classified as "lower ranking" doesn't mean that Drogue is considered "lower ranking".

If it included Generals too, then you would simply say "if the order is coming from anyone but Baxter".

37 is clear on this:

After the High Command has made these decisions the responsibility for putting the plan into action is delegated to subordinate officers in Regular Army units.

Drogue was simply putting the plan into action. How to put it into action is his purview.

So the problem can't be "you allocated resources in a way you didn't receive approval for" it's obviously that he did something they would not have approved of.

If it was something they would have approved of, and he needed permission, I think he would have simply put in the request rather than put himself at risk unnecessarily.

the issue is that even in the coalition there are policies and Rules of engagement now granted the rules of engagement they follow would get them up on war crimes if someone used them today.

the issue with General Drogue is that he wasn't FOLLOWING approved policy HE decided to setup extermination camps when there wasn't an approved policy to use them that means he was taking it upon himself to SET policy. THAT is the issue and that is where he overstepped his authority, in addition he tried to cover it up another BIG issue.

now the way it works is the overall government (or ruler) decides what the policy IS the generals even 4 and 5 star ones EXECUTE policy, they do NOT SET POLICY period full stop.

the generals can interpret HOW they do their jobs and follow the orders and policies they are given.

as far as Karl having every private coming to him when they have questions about orders and policy that is of course silly. those would be dealt with by the chain of command. but the generals are a bit different as they are his senior leadership part of their JOB, is to on those times when certain aspects of their job are questionable is to ask for clarification.

to use an example someone is told "field test these new combat robot prototypes." they are supposed to (within standard rules of engagement, and testing protocols, do the testing. ) if someone was told to test the unit (on a range) and they decided to go attack another country of course they are going to get in trouble. That is effectively what Drogue did.

Bingo... It's not like a Private can just send a voice communication to Karl. The CS soldiers are indoctrinated to follow orders. The orders came from their superior officer. Obviously, it was totally something the CS seemed like they would do, thus most didn't suspect anything. Even if they did, the chain of command is a hard thing to handle. They'd have to report to their superior, and then eventually to their superior, and so on and so forth. Remember the rank and file don't know policy, they aren't a democracy, they don't get to vote on things. They can't read. Heck questioning the CS can get you into trouble.

[Axelmania]

I'm really not sure where you're getting this "kill all" and "they were not to be captured" idea HWalsh.

Sedition 31:

Under most circumstances, the CS tries to avoid taking prisoners who are superhuman or possess magical powers. As a
rule, demons, godlings, and other supernatural beings, as well as creatures of magic, such as dragons, are deemed too dangerous to take chances with. However, sometimes there is the need to capture and interrogate or study such beings.

..

Years ago, Coalition Military Intelligence discovered the effects cybernetic implants have on practitioners of magic. Consequently, they use simple implants to reduce the sorcerer's P.P.E.

How can this be against policy if CMI is doing this?

Sedition 33:

Prisoner I.D. Chip
A simple implant that transmits fundamental data about the prisoner, name, rank, serial number, prisoner I.D. number and
date captured.
Note: All prisoners get this implant.

If imprisoning mages/D-Bees were this big secret unofficial thing, why exactly would they be chipping them to create evidence of the illegal practice?

You assume that the CS high command would disapprove, insinuating and insisting, that the reason why was because he kept it hidden. We have provided just as plausible a scenario for you.

This began with Sammmael asking "Is the fact that the coalition has death camps (Coalition Wars 05) for mages and D-Bees sufficient evidence that they're evil?"

I responded saying that it was Drogue's camps, not Karl or High Command, and I didn't feel Drogue's choices were sufficient evidence of judging the entire CS.

You responded saying there wasn't indications they would be against them. I showed you such potential indicators.

You have provided a fringe theory that shows these being potential indicators for some other motive.

In offering these explanations, neither of us has made any assumptions, but I believe my explanation holds more water.

Even more so as you have shown a lack of understanding of military protocol. A General, no General, can set policy.

If you are operating under the assumption that death-camp related treatment is fine, then the only error he made was allocation of resources.

Since when does where to put prions fall under requiring specific policies? The strategy of where to place bases is certainly under Drogue's purview.

The CS policy, officially, going into the war was, according to SOT, to kill all mages and d-bees. They were not to be captured. They were to be killed. Anyone allowing one to escape, or even showing kindness to one, was to be subject to court martial. They are enemies of humanity and were to be killed without mercy.

You can do better than 'according to SOT'

Regarding court martials, I'll resurrect what I quoted 18 days ago from Coalition Overkill page 22:

Any soldier found "willfully" helping the enemy escape (even a child) is subject to court-martial.
If found guilty, he is branded a traitor, be stripped of his rank,
and either face life in prison or, more likely, public execution

You are wrong when you say ALLOWING one to escape suffers this penalty. You have to be HELPING them. There is a difference. For example, not giving chase is 'allowing' while unlocking doors, providing supplies, taking out guards, etc. is helping.

You are also wrong when you say that showing kindness results in a court martial. From the same post when I quoted page 14:

Getting caught treating a nonhuman or practitioner of magic with kindness is a serious offense punishable by one or all of the
following "official" sanctions:

reprimand,
loss of pay,
harsh work-duty,
demotion (reduction of rank and/or loss of duty) and,
occasionally, dishonorable discharge.

and kindness is:

giving a D-Bee prisoner (or sorcerer)

a blanket,
cup of water,
food or medical treatment,

showing a captive some measure of respect and/or kindness,
refraining from torture
even letting obviously innocent people go

So to abbreviate things, there are (page 14) kindnessSanctions + (page 22) escapeMartialing

Since giving blanket/water/food/medicine to D-Bees/mages is listed under the kindnessSanctions(14) it clearly doesn't qualify as escapeMartialing (22).

Letting innocent mages/D-Bees go is also listed under the sanctions, so clearly "letting go" is NOT the same as "helping escape". The CS distinguishes between passive and active fault here.

If a D-Bee wizard picks the lock on his cell and escapes, it is a lesser charge to be all "yeah... not going to risk my health for that" and avoid chase than to actually pick the lock yourself and distract another guard from stopping them.

The "kindness" charges are also likely to be intended as "against orders", if Drogue is ordering a prisoner to be kept alive for interrogation then it wouldn't make sense to levy sanctions at whoever does what is necessary to keep them alive for questioning.

He broke that policy by capturing them. Holding them without telling high command he was going to do so, and had experiments performed on them. The death camps he set up were in direct opposition to official (see court martial-based) orders. Therefor, the CS may have approved of the camps if they had thought of them, but they did not.

Drogue is part of the CS. Please use "High Command" or "Karl" or something like that to be more specific.

Drogue is smart enough to estimate whether they would have approved, and if they would have, why would he risk not asking?

It seems likely that he knew his idea was so appalling that he could only have it ignored if he was victorious. Seeking forgiveness instead of permission.

Remember the rank and file don't know policy, they aren't a democracy, they don't get to vote on things. They can't read. Heck questioning the CS can get you into trouble.

Depends on the severity of what you question. Being unable to read doesn't mean the grunts don't know policies or that they don't get to vote.

The CS actually is a democracy. Karl Prosek was democratically elected as Chairman of the Coalition States in an open an free election. The next election is scheduled for when he dies, since he got promoted to Emperor-For-Life.

[Dunia]

It is interesting how these threads keep popping up together with the "It is ok to commit genocide against Coalition States"-Threads every few months.

Alignments in games are very narrow and often seen from the eyes of the games creator. I doubt many people in real life would be considered Principalled in Rifts terms. So I choose to defend karl Prosek in this post, as alignements are rather stupid and often changing over the life and even shorter periods of a person. As the song from the musical Avenue Q: "I think Everyone's a little bit racist sometimes. Doesn't mean we go around committing hate crimes. Look around and you will find no one's really color blind. Maybe it's a fact we all should face everyone makes judgments based on race.".

Yes, seen from a person from 2017, the leadership of the Coalition States are evil and many of their actions are or borderlines with warcrimes and worse. But in Rifts Earth the Coalition States and especially the Eperor sees what he does is a good thing. He does not hate the D-Bees and magic users just because he wanst to be nasty and petty. He uses his propaganda and his rethorics becuase he genuinely belives that they are a threat to humanity. Not just the humans in the Coalition States and all over the country, but to humanity as whole, all people who lives in PA 110 and all the generations of humans that will be born long after he is dead. Because in his eyes, what he does is a good thing and he is forced to do choices that will hurt some people to save the future for humanity.

I am not apologizing for Karl Prosek, I just try to see it from his point of view and how Kevin has so beautifully written in Secrets of the Coalition States / Heroes of Humanity, that no things in Rifts are black or white, not even the Coalition States. But now that the Minion War has come to Rifts Earth, another historical truth will come true...no government will stand the test of time. And to Karl Prosek and the Coalition States, the Emperor is a potential savior and he foresaw this a long time ago and now his old "evil comments" has become truth.

So alignment is in the eye of the beholder. To the Coalition States, Proek is a good guy, doing his best to protect humanity. To Erin Tarn and Lazlo, he isa villan and a tyrant. As Ambassador Kosh says in Babylon 5: "Truth is a three-edged sword, Your side, their side and the truth."

[Axelmania]

HOHp7 "Emperor Prosek believes everything he says" is good to keep in mind...

Although the very next page poses a problem...

"We, the people of the Coalition States, stand in the defense of humanity. We alone have bled and died in the defense of our world against the invasion of inhuman monsters and demons who would enslave all people.

The clear problem here being that he ought to be aware that his allies the New German Republic (not people of the CS) have also bled and died defending the world against the invasion of inhuman monsters and demons (Gargoyles).

Maybe the distinction is that Gargoyles don't enslave ALL people, because they eat some of them? I guess this means he thinks Hades has some kind of "slavery only, no snacks" policy?

Or did someone mindwipe the NGR from his mind before giving the speech?

Or does he figure NGR tech is so good that none of them actually die and they just pretend to for better negotiating power?

[Dunia]

HOHp7 "Emperor Prosek believes everything he says" is good to keep in mind...

Although the very next page poses a problem...

"We, the people of the Coalition States, stand in the defense of humanity. We alone have bled and died in the defense of our world against the invasion of inhuman monsters and demons who would enslave all people.

The clear problem here being that he ought to be aware that his allies the New German Republic (not people of the CS) have also bled and died defending the world against the invasion of inhuman monsters and demons (Gargoyles).

Maybe the distinction is that Gargoyles don't enslave ALL people, because they eat some of them? I guess this means he thinks Hades has some kind of "slavery only, no snacks" policy?

Or did someone mindwipe the NGR from his mind before giving the speech?

Or does he figure NGR tech is so good that none of them actually die and they just pretend to for better negotiating power?

Maybe the majority of all people (save Erin Tarn who appearantly has been everywhere and some oher places just because she is so super perfect and has achieved level 20 in Plot immunity and Importance. My personal bet is that if it was not the fact that Tolkien Enterprises owned the rights to that world, I bet that Erin Tarn would have been witnessing the fall of Sauron, Morgoth and the scouring of the Shire) in Rifts America has no idea that NGR exists and hence Emperor Prosek omits them in his speach. Or maybe it is just the waty that his speechwriters thought the speech would be most appriciative to the listeners in and near the Coalition States. He wants the people to rally to the aid of the Coalition and see how much the Coalition has done this far and how much good it will do in the future. My bet is a combination of the two and is just made for a good rhetoric speech. Just like modern politicans do.

[Axelmania]

Omission is one thing, but he says "alone" which seems like an impossible false claim (Karl is always 100% honest) unless we figure it out.

Perhaps there is an implied context (or even explicit, maybe the quote omitted the beginning of the speech?) that he is only speaking of North America?

[boring7]

HOHp7 "Emperor Prosek believes everything he says" is good to keep in mind...

Funny thing...

Yet despite his constant human supremacist speeches, Prosek is not a dedicated supremacist. That particular emphasis is only a useful means to his ends. Fanaticism is a powerful force that he is only too willing to inflame for his own evil purposes. Hate and vengeance will give him the people's support to invade lands they might otherwise hesitate to attack.

Vaccillation and retcons? In my Rifts?! Say it ain't so!

Anyways, presumably there's some phoney-baloney ill-logic rationalization where the CS deadboys that went to help the NGR (I forget the book, Triax?) meant that the CS claims all the glory in that war, that only the CS' willingness to "do what is necessary" (i.e. genocide) TRULY counts in humanity's war for survival, etc.

Kevin has this twisted love affair with cartoonishly evil and simplistic villains (see the irrationally evil vampires, the insane CS, the ham-fisted efforts to make Tolkeen "as evil") while also wanting to play with all the "what is good? what is evil? and what is necessary?" tropes. The Illinois Nazis literally have death camps and are bumbling nazis one minute, then they're "humanity's only hope for survival" and "a perhaps necessary evil" the next minute.

I mean, it's not *that* strange to look at fascism from the inside. In 1939 Hans the German Stormtrooper was not some baby-eating monster, he was fighting to protect his home, his family, and his people, at least from his perspective. He then proceeded to do things that would haunt him for the rest of his short life and hang for war crimes. But HoH (for example) keeps flip-flopping between perspectives and tones (cartoon villains or complex characters); and implying (from a theoretically "objective, god-narrator" view) that the death camps and the genocide AREN'T horrible war crimes because "necessary evil."

[Axelmania]

I don't see a contradiction there. You can be a human supremacist without being a DEDICATED supremacist. Kind of like I can be a weightlifter by touching a dumbell every couple months but not being a DEDICATED weightlifter.

The CS aren't cartoonishly evil/simplistic or insane.

How is it ham-fisted to recognize a city that tolerates necromancy/summoning as evil?

Where in WB5 do you find anything questioning the honesty of the CS/NGR alliance?

What you call the "Illinois Nazis" is General Drogue, not the CS.

Anyone would bumble against the horrors that magic brings.

In 1939 Hans the German Stormtrooper was not some baby-eating monster, he was fighting to protect his home, his family, and his people, at least from his perspective. He then proceeded to do things that would haunt him for the rest of his short life and hang for war crimes.

Would he? I thought the stormtroopers were the grunts, wasn't it the SS who were doing all the war crime things in the camps?

Where does HoH say that death camps are a necessary evil? I'm still in the mindset that this is something Drogue did without authorization of those in command.

I can confidently view genocide as a necessary evil when it comes to particular invasive species like the Xiticix or Slurmph (WB30p190) and that other one in D-Bees.

Still awaiting evidence of a 4th species the CS is explicitly genocidal toward.

I mean genocide in the classic "gen = gene" sense. If we're talking about "cultural" genocide, Germany has arguably done that to the Nazi culture, and in Rifts Earth terms it's probably a good idea to do cultural genocide against Soul Harvesters since even if they don't kill anyone to absorb souls, they and the Xombies they can summon can anchor Nxla here.

[boring7]

As a rule I don't respond to you, but these items seemed relevant (and NOT a recycle of some old thread)

I don't see a contradiction there. You can be a human supremacist without being a DEDICATED supremacist. Kind of like I can be a weightlifter by touching a dumbell every couple months but not being a DEDICATED weightlifter.

Not really. "Believes every word" (even if that statement is hyperbole) is mutually exclusive with "That particular emphasis is only a useful means to his ends."

Then you go into repeating the same old straw-men and related fallacies "where does it say (thing no one claimed)?" and "The Nazis were different because, (thing that isn't even historically accurate, and still applies to the CS)" You've been given examples and citations, you don't care, and I've moved on with my life.

But I must add this: You *really* ought to read more history about Nazi Germany and the banality of evil. You have a lot of fundamental misunderstandings of just how "normal" and "human" Nazi Germany was. The CS regularly does things (because it is fictional, and can be more extreme) that German Nazis COULDN'T do because it wouldn't pass muster. In the CS you can get shot for failing to gun down a town full of civilians; the German Army did not have such punishments. The German Army regularly committed atrocities which reached far and wide beyond Death Camps and Gassing Jews. Brutality, murder, torture, and destruction were all common during WWII and every time they were "necessary evils" in the eyes of the people committing them, from the top officers to the common grunts. French resistance attacks resulted in brutal reprisals against random civilians in the populace; churches would be burned for trying to hide "treasures" from the invading German army.

Through it all, there were justifications aplenty that the men used for their actions, justifications you can still read about. Those justifications often mirror the ones you'll find in Prosek-approved propaganda and I am rather confident that is intentional.

[Axelmania]

Eh, let's not go down the road of calling factually-phrased statements hyperbole or it is a hard rabbit hole to climb out of. Maybe rules are hyperbole too? Nothing is real?

Karl is clearly a human supremacist, he isn't lying about his opinions. But he does emphasize talking about those more than his interest in them would otherwise have him do, because it serves his ends.

Kind of like... I do like gardening, but I like video games much more, but I would probably emphasize the tiny bit of gardening that I do to try and impress most people since it gets more mainstream positive responses.

In the CS you can get shot for failing to gun down a town full of civilians

Requesting context here.

the German Army did not have such punishments

Officers never executed grunts for disobeying direct orders in the field during combat?

The German Army regularly committed atrocities which reached far and wide beyond Death Camps and Gassing Jews. Brutality, murder, torture, and destruction were all common during WWII and every time they were "necessary evils" in the eyes of the people committing them, from the top officers to the common grunts.

Considering the fog of war, I'm not sure how reliable any evidence there is that it was grunts doing this and not a group of specialists.

War is inherently brutal/destructive/murderous, as for torture I don't think that's something they would assign to a grunt, they would have torture specialists.

French resistance attacks resulted in brutal reprisals against random civilians in the populace; churches would be burned for trying to hide "treasures" from the invading German army.

I saw some of the reprisal stuff watching the TV series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Company but I keep in mind this is from an allied perspective. I would need to delve into the historical documents to know just how much proof exists that reprisals were "random" and not targeted.

Would it make any difference if you burned some other building for hiding treasures? Generally those who don't co-operate with conquerors get stepped on. Does this not exist in the past of any other major nations?

Those justifications often mirror the ones you'll find in Prosek-approved propaganda

Not closely enough IMO. Magic and Demons are much more tangible in Rifts than the subtle conspiracy theories Nazis had about Jews/Gypsies.

[HWalsh]

Eh, let's not go down the road of calling factually-phrased statements hyperbole or it is a hard rabbit hole to climb out of. Maybe rules are hyperbole too? Nothing is real?

Karl is clearly a human supremacist, he isn't lying about his opinions. But he does emphasize talking about those more than his interest in them would otherwise have him do, because it serves his ends.

Kind of like... I do like gardening, but I like video games much more, but I would probably emphasize the tiny bit of gardening that I do to try and impress most people since it gets more mainstream positive responses.

In the CS you can get shot for failing to gun down a town full of civilians

Requesting context here.

I have already given this context to you. Dozens of times and I am not even the person you are responding to.

SoT 2 pg. 15

"Getting caught treating a nonhuman or practitioner of magic with kindness is a serious offense punishable by one or all of the following "official" sanctions: reprimand, loss of pay, harsh work-duty, demotion (reduction of rank and/or loss of duty) and, occasionally, dishonorable discharge."

This is for treating a non-human with kindness Axel. Not letting them escape. Not aiding them. Being NICE to them.

"Unofficially, the "D-Bee lover," "fool" or "traitor" is likely to face ridicule by his comrades, be shunned, suffer pranks, beatings and mistreatment, and, depending on the circumstances and possible repercussions of his actions, be given the most dangerous or foul assignments, and may even get himself killed by one or more of his fellow soldiers."

Harsh. Unofficially they could be killed by their own fellow soldiers because they were nice to a non-human or practitioner of magic.

It goes on to say:

"Any soldier found "willfully" helping the enemy escape (even a child) is subject to court-martial. If found guilty, he is branded a traitor (something that will disgrace and haunt the individual's family for generations), be stripped of his rank, and either face life in prison or, more likely, public execution as a "traitor to the Coalition States and all of humankind!"

So... Yeah. You kill "the enemy" (even a child) or you die. The CS will kill you. Since the CS wasn't supposed to be taking prisoners during Tolkeen (and in fact SoT says that too) and that high command didn't even know about the prisons that means "escape" means "not kill."

the German Army did not have such punishments

Officers never executed grunts for disobeying direct orders in the field during combat?

Actually yes and no. A little known fact about Nazi Germany is that no Nazi soldier could be ordered to kill a civilian. They could refuse to do so. If they did refuse to do so there were NO repercussions (and in fact many did refuse) for that action. Any German officer could choose to refuse any order given to them if they felt that it was unethical, many did, it was fairly common. Grunts could as well. The general punishment for such was imprisonment and/or court martial, they were not executed for it. Ever.

So yes. The CS is actually worse than the Nazis in many regards.

The German Army regularly committed atrocities which reached far and wide beyond Death Camps and Gassing Jews. Brutality, murder, torture, and destruction were all common during WWII and every time they were "necessary evils" in the eyes of the people committing them, from the top officers to the common grunts.

Considering the fog of war, I'm not sure how reliable any evidence there is that it was grunts doing this and not a group of specialists.

Yes, there were many verifiable instances of grunts being ordered to perform such acts. A small percentage of those orders were refused.

War is inherently brutal/destructive/murderous, as for torture I don't think that's something they would assign to a grunt, they would have torture specialists.

French resistance attacks resulted in brutal reprisals against random civilians in the populace; churches would be burned for trying to hide "treasures" from the invading German army.

The myth of torture specialists was invented by Hollywood.

Not closely enough IMO. Magic and Demons are much more tangible in Rifts than the subtle conspiracy theories Nazis had about Jews/Gypsies.

Not... Really? I mean the fact of the matter is that you are wrong here. Magic and Demons don't pose much of a threat to Rifts Earth. We know it doesn't. Prosek inflates those fears. It is SOP. Magic is no more dangerous than technology. A demon is no more dangerous than a robot. We can prove this. Heck the most dangerous group of Rifts outside of MAYBE the Splugorth is ARCHIE Three and he has not a drop of magic.

[Axelmania]

Unofficially they could be killed by their own fellow soldiers because they were nice to a non-human or practitioner of magic.

Unofficially you could be killed for your orientation/religion in any modern army. Unofficial doesn't matter.

"Any soldier found "willfully" helping the enemy escape (even a child) is subject to court-martial. If found guilty, he is branded a traitor (something that will disgrace and haunt the individual's family for generations), be stripped of his rank, and either face life in prison or, more likely, public execution as a "traitor to the Coalition States and all of humankind!"

So... Yeah. You kill "the enemy" (even a child) or you die.

You're reading that wrong. Killing people who help ENEMIES escape is not the same as killing people who do not kill enemies.

Not killing an escaping enemy is not the same as HELPING the enemy. Passive vs. Active.

If you disarmed fellow soldiers trying to shoot the escaping enemy, THAT is helping them escape. Simply not doing your duty isn't actively aiding them, it's just not actively stopping them.

Your interpretation would lead to executions for anyone who froze up in battle, it's silly.

A little known fact about Nazi Germany is that no Nazi soldier could be ordered to kill a civilian. They could refuse to do so. If they did refuse to do so there were NO repercussions (and in fact many did refuse) for that action. Any German officer could choose to refuse any order given to them if they felt that it was unethical, many did, it was fairly common. Grunts could as well. The general punishment for such was imprisonment and/or court martial, they were not executed for it. Ever.

So yes. The CS is actually worse than the Nazis in many regards.

It sounds like the CS has the same policy. They may execute people who HELP enemies escape, but there isn't anything saying they'll execute people simply for LETTING them escape.

The myth of torture specialists was invented by Hollywood.

So what is ABC's Waterboarding, Interrogations: The CIA's $1,000 a Day Specialists article about?

Magic and Demons don't pose much of a threat to Rifts Earth. We know it doesn't.
..
Magic is no more dangerous than technology. A demon is no more dangerous than a robot. We can prove this.

I have to politely disagree with you here.

Where are the invisible robots? The shapeshifting robots? The mind-controlling robots?

Where are the equivalent of Death Demons?

[Alrik Vas]

HOHp7 "Emperor Prosek believes everything he says" is good to keep in mind...

Funny thing...

Yet despite his constant human supremacist speeches, Prosek is not a dedicated supremacist. That particular emphasis is only a useful means to his ends. Fanaticism is a powerful force that he is only too willing to inflame for his own evil purposes. Hate and vengeance will give him the people's support to invade lands they might otherwise hesitate to attack.

Vaccillation and retcons? In my Rifts?! Say it ain't so!

Hmmm...one comes after the other. Attitudes change, even with the writing. Would be nice if they tossed 2 paragraphs about why Prosek is on a high horse with his own rhetoric now, but honestly we'll have to assume it's because now is the perfect time to be sincere.

Magic and Demons don't pose much of a threat to Rifts Earth. We know it doesn't.
..
Magic is no more dangerous than technology. A demon is no more dangerous than a robot. We can prove this.

Huh? We know it doesn't?

Okay, prove it. What kind of demon and robot are we talking here? I can't wait.

[HWalsh]

Where are the invisible robots? The shapeshifting robots? The mind-controlling robots?

Where are the equivalent of Death Demons?

Robots with cloaking technology exist. Heck you can get armor that turns you invisible without magic if the tech is sufficiently advanced. There is even a cloaking field equipped normal armor that can be purchased from the Naruni.

Shapeshifting robots, Archie 3 has a number of robots that look perfectly human, or like animals, which is shape shifting. So, just look at Sourcebook 1.

Mind controlling robots? See Mindworks. Maybe not robots, but you can mind control people with technology, or drive them insane, it is completely possible.

Death Demon? Well... Let us look at Rifts Dark Conversions, since I have it handy.

The Baal-Rog, that looks pretty beefy...

Let's see how it stands up to a technological opponent... Like say... The Triax X-5001

MDC? At 2150 The X-5001 wins hands down.

Oh, I know! Attacks per round? Well the X-5001 has 4 Gunners, assuming that these have the minimum number of attacks per round possible by any combatant that is a minimum of 16 attacks per round (while the Pilot can dodge all day, add attacks as well, and the co-pilot can too.) So minimum 16 vs 6? Betting on the giant robot.

Well, at 2d6x10 the X-5001 is going to win that one clearly too...

In fact... Since the X-5001 can see invisible while using heat sensors (as it's not greater invis) then I think... Let me do the math... An average of 70 MDC per shot... At potentially 6 shots before the Demon gets an action (1 from the Pilot, Co Pilot, and 4 Gunners) the Demon might eat 420 damage before it even gets to act. At 300-800 MDC, and an average of around 600-700 that is a serious issue. The Demon's action might give it 4d6 MD... Or a whole 14 M.D. on average... And it is dead before it gets a second action.

Okay, okay, so maybe a Giant Robot isn't fair? Sure... We can bring a Fatboy into this... You know the Triax Glitterboy that could also see invisible and does 6d6x10 damage per shot? At an average of 210 per shot he would also make quick work of a "higher demon" pretty easily.

If you seriously think that there isn't technology that rivals the demons then you aren't reading Rifts books. There is a reason why the Minion War is kind of a joke. The CS outguns them so highly it isn't even funny by the game mechanics. Heck a 'Borg is a decent match for most demons 1 on 1 without a problem.

[taalismn]

That's provided that the Infernals are going to stand up and slug it out in a stand-up fight.
GM's gotta have the evils play DIRTY.
Of course, with psi-stalkers and dog-boys on the CS side, that also becomes tilted in the CS's favor, even with the demonic plagues knocking down the psychics.

[HWalsh]

That's provided that the Infernals are going to stand up and slug it out in a stand-up fight.
GM's gotta have the evils play DIRTY.
Of course, with psi-stalkers and dog-boys on the CS side, that also becomes tilted in the CS's favor, even with the demonic plagues knocking down the psychics.

Bingo.

Technology is every bit as powerful and as dangerous as Magic.

Archie 3 - Pure tech, every bit as terrifying as an Alien Intellect.

If someone makes a bomb it could theoretically kill all human life on Rifts Earth if it causes hydrogen to combust.

If anyone thinks that Magic is more dangerous and unpredictable than Technology then they aren't paying attention.

They are equally strong, powerful, and dangerous in the wrong hands.

The CS is the wrong hands for a BB gun.

[eliakon]

Unofficially they could be killed by their own fellow soldiers because they were nice to a non-human or practitioner of magic.

Unofficially you could be killed for your orientation/religion in any modern army. Unofficial doesn't matter.

Which is a nice way to pretend that the text doesn't exist I suppose.
In the REAL world no one is going to over look this. nor is death a common unofficial policy to people.
SO yes, unofficial DOES matter because it shows what the society is like.
When the average soldier faces a very real threat of being killed by their FRIENDS for simply being nice to a being then yes, it is a MAJOR issue.

"Any soldier found "willfully" helping the enemy escape (even a child) is subject to court-martial. If found guilty, he is branded a traitor (something that will disgrace and haunt the individual's family for generations), be stripped of his rank, and either face life in prison or, more likely, public execution as a "traitor to the Coalition States and all of humankind!"

So... Yeah. You kill "the enemy" (even a child) or you die.

You're reading that wrong. Killing people who help ENEMIES escape is not the same as killing people who do not kill enemies.

Not killing an escaping enemy is not the same as HELPING the enemy. Passive vs. Active.

If you disarmed fellow soldiers trying to shoot the escaping enemy, THAT is helping them escape. Simply not doing your duty isn't actively aiding them, it's just not actively stopping them.

Your interpretation would lead to executions for anyone who froze up in battle, it's silly.

Which would matter if you were not actually simply making things up to try and spin the books
In legal theory a person who does not do their duty IS an active party to the act.
Failing to stop a person from escaping IS legally being complicit in their escape.
There is a defense to that if you can prove that you had no choice, or that there were external issues (such as the 'freezing up)...
...but in the real world yes, soldiers that "freeze up" in action can, and have been, court-martialed for dereliction of duty.
Bottom line. Allowing a child to escape in any way, shape or form is a death sentence. And legally that means "taking any action, or choosing to not take an action that causes the act to occur or be more likely to occur"

A little known fact about Nazi Germany is that no Nazi soldier could be ordered to kill a civilian. They could refuse to do so. If they did refuse to do so there were NO repercussions (and in fact many did refuse) for that action. Any German officer could choose to refuse any order given to them if they felt that it was unethical, many did, it was fairly common. Grunts could as well. The general punishment for such was imprisonment and/or court martial, they were not executed for it. Ever.

So yes. The CS is actually worse than the Nazis in many regards.

It sounds like the CS has the same policy. They may execute people who HELP enemies escape, but there isn't anything saying they'll execute people simply for LETTING them escape.

that is EXACTLY what it says.
Letting them escape is explicitly listed as a Court Martial offense carrying a penalty of Death with a possibility of only life in military prison.

The myth of torture specialists was invented by Hollywood.

So what is ABC's Waterboarding, Interrogations: The CIA's $1,000 a Day Specialists article about?

And even in the US most of the torture was performed by amateurs.
Hence things like Abu Grahb.

In point of fact one of the things that was considered so horrific about the US torture system was the attempt to create highly trained specialists for it. That was considered new, horrific and revolting.

Magic and Demons don't pose much of a threat to Rifts Earth. We know it doesn't.
..
Magic is no more dangerous than technology. A demon is no more dangerous than a robot. We can prove this.

I have to politely disagree with you here.

Where are the invisible robots? The shapeshifting robots? The mind-controlling robots?

Where are the equivalent of Death Demons?

You mean like Phoenix Zombies?

When Magic can replicate MoM mind programing, Rifts level Nanites, create Machine Men, and mass produce fully trained soldiers, and create weapons that destroy miles at a go (with out resorting to a one off Circle of Legend) then you MIGHT have a point.
As it is magic and technology are equally dangerous they just have a few areas where they are better at that danger than the other.
Technology can do many horrific things that magic can not, and magic can do many horrific things that technology can not.
Trying to pretend that one, or the other, is "more dangerous" or "less dangerous" or "better" or "worse" is to ignore reality and try to promote a personal agenda.

[Blue_Lion]

Where are the magic city busters?

Technolgy can be used by almost anyone to do damage. Magic is more limited in who can use it. Any one can shoot a rifile to kill some one from hiding.
(Mind works does have some rather scary tech.)

It does not take shape shifting mind control or invisibly to be dangerous. A traditional mage has to earn his power and would be likely to have more respect and understanding of its power and risk, almost any one can pick up and shoot a laser pistol. Both magic and tech can be exploited to do bad things.

TRiax makes robots that look like gargoyles to infiltrate and spread chaos, while not shape shifting they accomplish the same thing.
You do not need invisibly when you are outside of vision range shooting MRM or LRM at the target.

Magic might have strength in hiding but tech is just as dangerous, and is more readily available for misuse.

Example-Many people blame magic alone for the invasion of the mechniods but the mechniods are a product of technology and would not exist without technology.

Sure a magical dragon can shape shift into a child to get close but dog boys would detect it before it got in melee range, while technology can put a hermetically sealed suicide vest on the child and send it in to blow up a CS patrol.

(Note shooting targets indiscrimnatly before they are presenting a known threat is an evil act. It is like saying we should just shoot every one Iraq because the insurgents hide among its people.)

[boring7]

Not to mention good old mass-production. Magic inevitably has choke-points in the form of the spellcasters who work the magic. If my "quantum wizard" with all forms of magic/techno-wizardry wants to equip some people he's still making every scroll, TW device, and magic suit of armor by hand. My technician can build a factory that prints armor and weapons for thousands of folks.

There may be some apples-to-oranges comparisons (if, and really ONLY if, you cut out all alien tech) in powers that magic or technology can do that the other just flat-out can't (like shapeshift, or teleport, or quickly arm a conscript army, or fly at >100 MPH) but when it comes to "getting **** done" the two are pretty good at evening out.

Oh, and you shouldn't forget psychics, which are treated different from magic and ALSO have some apples-to-oranges shenanigans.

Of course, the best trick is constantly using BOTH to "hack" and "cheat" each others' limitations. Like creating an army of zombies, equipping them with cheap armor and mass-produced (technological) weapons, and throwing them at the army of vampires you're up against (oh wait, Doc Reid already does that).

[HWalsh]

Not to mention good old mass-production. Magic inevitably has choke-points in the form of the spellcasters who work the magic. If my "quantum wizard" with all forms of magic/techno-wizardry wants to equip some people he's still making every scroll, TW device, and magic suit of armor by hand. My technician can build a factory that prints armor and weapons for thousands of folks.

There may be some apples-to-oranges comparisons (if, and really ONLY if, you cut out all alien tech) in powers that magic or technology can do that the other just flat-out can't (like shapeshift, or teleport, or quickly arm a conscript army, or fly at >100 MPH) but when it comes to "getting **** done" the two are pretty good at evening out.

Oh, and you shouldn't forget psychics, which are treated different from magic and ALSO have some apples-to-oranges shenanigans.

Of course, the best trick is constantly using BOTH to "hack" and "cheat" each others' limitations. Like creating an army of zombies, equipping them with cheap armor and mass-produced (technological) weapons, and throwing them at the army of vampires you're up against (oh wait, Doc Reid already does that).

Just putting an end cap on this thread.

We have established here:

1. The CS is indefensibly evil as an overall entity. It has evil leaders, most of the soldiers participate in unquestionably evil acts. Most of the citizenry stand by and allow atrocities to happen and even cheer them on.

2. Technology is as dangerous as Magic, thus the argument that the CS is just trying to protect is false. As, if it were true, they'd be anti-tech and they are not.

Thus I expect we will see no more defending the CS as we now have proven what they are.

[eliakon]

Not to mention good old mass-production. Magic inevitably has choke-points in the form of the spellcasters who work the magic. If my "quantum wizard" with all forms of magic/techno-wizardry wants to equip some people he's still making every scroll, TW device, and magic suit of armor by hand. My technician can build a factory that prints armor and weapons for thousands of folks.

There may be some apples-to-oranges comparisons (if, and really ONLY if, you cut out all alien tech) in powers that magic or technology can do that the other just flat-out can't (like shapeshift, or teleport, or quickly arm a conscript army, or fly at >100 MPH) but when it comes to "getting **** done" the two are pretty good at evening out.

Oh, and you shouldn't forget psychics, which are treated different from magic and ALSO have some apples-to-oranges shenanigans.

Of course, the best trick is constantly using BOTH to "hack" and "cheat" each others' limitations. Like creating an army of zombies, equipping them with cheap armor and mass-produced (technological) weapons, and throwing them at the army of vampires you're up against (oh wait, Doc Reid already does that).

Just putting an end cap on this thread.

We have established here:

1. The CS is indefensibly evil as an overall entity. It has evil leaders, most of the soldiers participate in unquestionably evil acts. Most of the citizenry stand by and allow atrocities to happen and even cheer them on.

2. Technology is as dangerous as Magic, thus the argument that the CS is just trying to protect is false. As, if it were true, they'd be anti-tech and they are not.

Thus I expect we will see no more defending the CS as we now have proven what they are.

Nah
We will still see a ton of defenders of the CS
They will just claim that the proof provided is false. Or fake facts. Or that we are just anti-CS
And then they will continue to claim that the CS is misunderstood and that it is in the right because "reasons"

That is sort of how defenders of evil WORK
They claim that those who point out their evil are foes who are out to get them and that the attacks on their evil prove that they are in the right.
This is why we still have so many Nazi apologists today.

[Alrik Vas]

the strict difference between the CS and modern idiots of evil is this:

People today will throw everyone under the bus, even when they're not a threat, and have no immediate threats. They'll make someone a threat so they can control others.

The CS does the same thing.

The only difference is that there actually are terrible things actively looking to do equally terrible things to other sentient beings, purely because it is their nature to do them and it brings them pleasure.

This doesn't make the CS good, and definitely still puts them on the bad guy list. Though there is a distinction. The CS isn't JUST full of lame excuses of the crap they pull (they got a lot of those, though).

[Nightmask]

the strict difference between the CS and modern idiots of evil is this:

People today will throw everyone under the bus, even when they're not a threat, and have no immediate threats. They'll make someone a threat so they can control others.

The CS does the same thing.

The only difference is that there actually are terrible things actively looking to do equally terrible things to other sentient beings, purely because it is their nature to do them and it brings them pleasure.

This doesn't make the CS good, and definitely still puts them on the bad guy list. Though there is a distinction. The CS isn't JUST full of lame excuses of the crap they pull (they got a lot of those, though).

There is no difference, there actually are terrible things looking to do equally terrible things to other sentient beings in the real world, humans that are living embodiments of evil, who have worked terrible depraved acts on other human beings and are looking for their next victim right now. This does not provide justification or excuse for behaving as if everyone is one of those people and treating them according to the worst of us.

[HWalsh]

the strict difference between the CS and modern idiots of evil is this:

People today will throw everyone under the bus, even when they're not a threat, and have no immediate threats. They'll make someone a threat so they can control others.

The CS does the same thing.

The only difference is that there actually are terrible things actively looking to do equally terrible things to other sentient beings, purely because it is their nature to do them and it brings them pleasure.

This doesn't make the CS good, and definitely still puts them on the bad guy list. Though there is a distinction. The CS isn't JUST full of lame excuses of the crap they pull (they got a lot of those, though).

As others have said, there are horrible things in the world today, the CS is no better and there is no distinction. We, finally, have proven what we have fought over for months and months.

[Axelmania]

Walsh the Death Demons are in the Hades dimension book. If they bite you, you too can become a Greater Demon in a manner of weeks. Prior to that we had vampires as a good example of demonic dangers.

Yes I am aware you can build a robot big enough to beat any demon in a standup fight a smart demon would not bother finishing, irrelevant. Robots cost lots of money and time to make (and repair) and are piloted by weaklings. They lack demonic guerilla ability.

All the examples of dangerous tech seem to rely on aliens like the Naruni/Newtownians whom the CS pushed out or a hidden AI running a non-CS company, so this seems to deviate from the spirit of an anti-CS argument.

I would like see see where it says you can be killed for LETTING enemies escape.

All I recall is if you HELP them. Quote plz.

[dreicunan]

Not to mention good old mass-production. Magic inevitably has choke-points in the form of the spellcasters who work the magic. If my "quantum wizard" with all forms of magic/techno-wizardry wants to equip some people he's still making every scroll, TW device, and magic suit of armor by hand. My technician can build a factory that prints armor and weapons for thousands of folks.

There may be some apples-to-oranges comparisons (if, and really ONLY if, you cut out all alien tech) in powers that magic or technology can do that the other just flat-out can't (like shapeshift, or teleport, or quickly arm a conscript army, or fly at >100 MPH) but when it comes to "getting **** done" the two are pretty good at evening out.

Oh, and you shouldn't forget psychics, which are treated different from magic and ALSO have some apples-to-oranges shenanigans.

Of course, the best trick is constantly using BOTH to "hack" and "cheat" each others' limitations. Like creating an army of zombies, equipping them with cheap armor and mass-produced (technological) weapons, and throwing them at the army of vampires you're up against (oh wait, Doc Reid already does that).

Just putting an end cap on this thread.

We have established here:

1. The CS is indefensibly evil as an overall entity. It has evil leaders, most of the soldiers participate in unquestionably evil acts. Most of the citizenry stand by and allow atrocities to happen and even cheer them on.

2. Technology is as dangerous as Magic, thus the argument that the CS is just trying to protect is false. As, if it were true, they'd be anti-tech and they are not.

Thus I expect we will see no more defending the CS as we now have proven what they are.

Regarding point #2: Please cite the technological means by which you can steal and/or destroy (either outright or by consumption) someone's soul. If you can't, then you have most definitely not proven that technology is just as dangerous as magic.

[boring7]

And there's axel,just makin' up strawmen again. Most of us specifically avoid alien tech and he just pretends that was the only example worth mentioning.

Just putting an end cap on this thread.

We have established here:

1. The CS is indefensibly evil as an overall entity. It has evil leaders, most of the soldiers participate in unquestionably evil acts. Most of the citizenry stand by and allow atrocities to happen and even cheer them on.

2. Technology is as dangerous as Magic, thus the argument that the CS is just trying to protect is false. As, if it were true, they'd be anti-tech and they are not.

Thus I expect we will see no more defending the CS as we now have proven what they are.

Well I'm still having fun. Like when I point out the CS, "defenders of humanity," make humanity decidedly less safe. There are plenty of examples, from their war with Free Quebec to their wars with everybody else they didn't need to pick a fight with or ought to have cut a deal with.

The biggest and most obvious is their terror and fear and general incompetence involving magic. Oh sure, supposedly the CS boyz can take Lore: magic (and somehow NOT know that 90% of coalition fear-mongering about magic is nonsense), and thus know how to combat magic things, but they still choose to be luddites with regards to using magic to stop magic. The thermal imaging and density sensors necessary to defeat invisibility are a lot more expensive than just keeping a mage on payroll to make amulets of see the invisible. You can have your really expensive medical nano-tech, or you can have some healing magic.

But it doesn't stop with magic or even alien technology; they even fear HUMAN technology. A bit part of the FQ/CS war was because Prosek wanted them to get rid of their Glitter Boys. I'm not entirely clear on the reasoning (I haven't read every single page of every book...AND they're contradictory as heck) but that's an entirely human-made machine he wants phased out because of trust issues.

And then there's Tolkeen. If Prosek had teamed up with Tolkeen and had Tolkeen running special ops and secret strikes while the unending wall of fire and steel that is a full Coalition ground force pounded its way forward the Xiticix would not exist anymore. But of course, that would mean tactics and strategy more complex than a toddler playing tiddlywinks. And it doesn't end there. With Tolkeen dead and all its magic specialists and people who could really, really help fight the demons and deevils pouring into earth the Coalition States pretty much created the mess they're so desperately fighting in the Minion War.

How, pray tell, do those beasts come trundling in? All those recently uncapped nexus points making for rifts and Hellpits? Oh right, CS foolishness made it easy. Now the legions of 2 hells are slaughtering their people and they make the "pained" and "desperate" choices of Juicer and 'Borg conversions. It's made abundantly clear in the fluff text they don't actually TRUST those poor volunteers once they "abandon their humanity" and the CS leadership will doubtless murder most of them if they come back alive (though they probably won't).

Over and over, they burn resources on "purity" and control. They keep the populace too ignorant to be useful. They burn resources fighting people that they COULD be manipulating and using as foils. And always it is the humans that Prosek 'protects' that suffer death and destruction because of it.

[Nightmask]

Not to mention good old mass-production. Magic inevitably has choke-points in the form of the spellcasters who work the magic. If my "quantum wizard" with all forms of magic/techno-wizardry wants to equip some people he's still making every scroll, TW device, and magic suit of armor by hand. My technician can build a factory that prints armor and weapons for thousands of folks.

There may be some apples-to-oranges comparisons (if, and really ONLY if, you cut out all alien tech) in powers that magic or technology can do that the other just flat-out can't (like shapeshift, or teleport, or quickly arm a conscript army, or fly at >100 MPH) but when it comes to "getting **** done" the two are pretty good at evening out.

Oh, and you shouldn't forget psychics, which are treated different from magic and ALSO have some apples-to-oranges shenanigans.

Of course, the best trick is constantly using BOTH to "hack" and "cheat" each others' limitations. Like creating an army of zombies, equipping them with cheap armor and mass-produced (technological) weapons, and throwing them at the army of vampires you're up against (oh wait, Doc Reid already does that).

Just putting an end cap on this thread.

We have established here:

1. The CS is indefensibly evil as an overall entity. It has evil leaders, most of the soldiers participate in unquestionably evil acts. Most of the citizenry stand by and allow atrocities to happen and even cheer them on.

2. Technology is as dangerous as Magic, thus the argument that the CS is just trying to protect is false. As, if it were true, they'd be anti-tech and they are not.

Thus I expect we will see no more defending the CS as we now have proven what they are.

Regarding point #2: Please cite the technological means by which you can steal and/or destroy (either outright or by consumption) someone's soul. If you can't, then you have most definitely not proven that technology is just as dangerous as magic.

Yes, he has. You're reaching trying to move the goalposts to maintain some kind of justification that magic is somehow just that much worse than technology to justify the anti-magic stance of people like the CS. It's not. When with tech you can kill millions with a single weapon whereas magic just can't even come close to that with any of the spells that exist for it and you can far more easily hand that technology to people than you can magic then magic is far more dangerous.

[Kargan3033]

The CS: " Good, Evil, They are the ones with the nukes. "

But all joking aside I have to wonder if the founders of the CS who were the survivors of the coming of the rifts where not mentally scared by the hell of the coming of the rifts and all that followed it and became so grim and hard bitten that to them it's kill or be killed and anything that is not human is a danger to the continual survival of humanity so kill it/them or be killed or worse by it/them.

And after all the long years of fighting to stay alive that they lost their compassion and empathy towards the D-bees and magic users.

[Cr'Imson]

...When with tech you can kill millions with a single weapon whereas magic just can't even come close to that with any of the spells that exist for it...

I am not taking any side in this argument.

Not really trying to derail your argument, but see Zombie Apocalypse (Rifter #50, pg. 38), though it takes time to really get going. Some magical diseases/plagues, again given time, can also kill a lot of people.

I do understand what you are trying to say, but your statement is not actually correct.



Cr'Imson

[dreicunan]

Not to mention good old mass-production. Magic inevitably has choke-points in the form of the spellcasters who work the magic. If my "quantum wizard" with all forms of magic/techno-wizardry wants to equip some people he's still making every scroll, TW device, and magic suit of armor by hand. My technician can build a factory that prints armor and weapons for thousands of folks.

There may be some apples-to-oranges comparisons (if, and really ONLY if, you cut out all alien tech) in powers that magic or technology can do that the other just flat-out can't (like shapeshift, or teleport, or quickly arm a conscript army, or fly at >100 MPH) but when it comes to "getting **** done" the two are pretty good at evening out.

Oh, and you shouldn't forget psychics, which are treated different from magic and ALSO have some apples-to-oranges shenanigans.

Of course, the best trick is constantly using BOTH to "hack" and "cheat" each others' limitations. Like creating an army of zombies, equipping them with cheap armor and mass-produced (technological) weapons, and throwing them at the army of vampires you're up against (oh wait, Doc Reid already does that).

Just putting an end cap on this thread.

We have established here:

1. The CS is indefensibly evil as an overall entity. It has evil leaders, most of the soldiers participate in unquestionably evil acts. Most of the citizenry stand by and allow atrocities to happen and even cheer them on.

2. Technology is as dangerous as Magic, thus the argument that the CS is just trying to protect is false. As, if it were true, they'd be anti-tech and they are not.

Thus I expect we will see no more defending the CS as we now have proven what they are.

Regarding point #2: Please cite the technological means by which you can steal and/or destroy (either outright or by consumption) someone's soul. If you can't, then you have most definitely not proven that technology is just as dangerous as magic.

Yes, he has. You're reaching trying to move the goalposts to maintain some kind of justification that magic is somehow just that much worse than technology to justify the anti-magic stance of people like the CS. It's not. When with tech you can kill millions with a single weapon whereas magic just can't even come close to that with any of the spells that exist for it and you can far more easily hand that technology to people than you can magic then magic is far more dangerous.

I've done no such thing; I didn't even mention the CS in my post. However, it is incontrovertible that there are multiple forms of magic that affect the soul in the megaverse (Rune Magic, both the souls used to make rune weapons and the weapons that drink souls; Nxla and its Harvesters to name just two of them). I am unaware of any technology that can do anything like that. Thus, as a threat to a whole being, magic poses a greater threat, as it threatens body and soul, while tech threatens only the body.

[boring7]

Spoiler:

Not to mention good old mass-production. Magic inevitably has choke-points in the form of the spellcasters who work the magic. If my "quantum wizard" with all forms of magic/techno-wizardry wants to equip some people he's still making every scroll, TW device, and magic suit of armor by hand. My technician can build a factory that prints armor and weapons for thousands of folks.

There may be some apples-to-oranges comparisons (if, and really ONLY if, you cut out all alien tech) in powers that magic or technology can do that the other just flat-out can't (like shapeshift, or teleport, or quickly arm a conscript army, or fly at >100 MPH) but when it comes to "getting **** done" the two are pretty good at evening out.

Oh, and you shouldn't forget psychics, which are treated different from magic and ALSO have some apples-to-oranges shenanigans.

Of course, the best trick is constantly using BOTH to "hack" and "cheat" each others' limitations. Like creating an army of zombies, equipping them with cheap armor and mass-produced (technological) weapons, and throwing them at the army of vampires you're up against (oh wait, Doc Reid already does that).

Just putting an end cap on this thread.

We have established here:

1. The CS is indefensibly evil as an overall entity. It has evil leaders, most of the soldiers participate in unquestionably evil acts. Most of the citizenry stand by and allow atrocities to happen and even cheer them on.

2. Technology is as dangerous as Magic, thus the argument that the CS is just trying to protect is false. As, if it were true, they'd be anti-tech and they are not.

Thus I expect we will see no more defending the CS as we now have proven what they are.

Regarding point #2: Please cite the technological means by which you can steal and/or destroy (either outright or by consumption) someone's soul. If you can't, then you have most definitely not proven that technology is just as dangerous as magic.

Yes, he has. You're reaching trying to move the goalposts to maintain some kind of justification that magic is somehow just that much worse than technology to justify the anti-magic stance of people like the CS. It's not. When with tech you can kill millions with a single weapon whereas magic just can't even come close to that with any of the spells that exist for it and you can far more easily hand that technology to people than you can magic then magic is far more dangerous.

I've done no such thing; I didn't even mention the CS in my post. However, it is incontrovertible that there are multiple forms of magic that affect the soul in the megaverse (Rune Magic, both the souls used to make rune weapons and the weapons that drink souls; Nxla and its Harvesters to name just two of them). I am unaware of any technology that can do anything like that. Thus, as a threat to a whole being, magic poses a greater threat, as it threatens body and soul, while tech threatens only the body.

Except you ARE. You're moving the goalposts and making a dishonest argument.

Technology can permanently remove someone's PPE, can magic do that?
Technology can slaughter millions with the push of a button, how much mass destruction can magic bring out?
Technology can create independent, living beings with will and thought, pretty sure magic only summons or makes mindless automatons.
And the re-writing or altering of personalities via MOM and neural modification straddles the line of destroying souls, but that's a philosophical question and we just established you're not discussing things from an honest position.