Proof that the CS is Evil

[Alrik Vas]

As others have said, there are horrible things in the world today, the CS is no better and there is no distinction. We, finally, have proven what we have fought over for months and months.

There is a distinction. I also haven't seen this proof you're talking about.

[Alrik Vas]

Technology can permanently remove someone's PPE, can magic do that?
Technology can slaughter millions with the push of a button, how much mass destruction can magic bring out?
Technology can create independent, living beings with will and thought, pretty sure magic only summons or makes mindless automatons.
And the re-writing or altering of personalities via MOM and neural modification straddles the line of destroying souls, but that's a philosophical question and we just established you're not discussing things from an honest position.

You say they're moving the goal posts, but you're talking hyperbole here.

The push of a button to murder millions? With what? A nuclear weapon? There's some button pressing involved, sure. Though the missile has to launch correctly, get to it's target safely, and detonate properly. There's a lot more to it than "press button, people die", especially since someone could foretell/divine the incoming death with a spell, and stop it with teleportation or...oh, a rift defense spell that might have been used in some war or another.

As to how much mass destruction can magic bring about...well, let's ask the Old Ones when they come back, or ask any of the shattered, half dead gods who survived sealing them. As far as mechanics, go check the WMD's Tolkeen had access to during the war, and also consider what a Wall of Lictalon would do to an advancing army.

Magic can summon entities with plenty of sentient intelligence (literal "entities", by name...also Elementals and various other spirits).

Going insane via MOM isn't soul destruction, I don't think. Though if someone knows whether or not Resurrection brings you back with your implants, or makes you whole again instead, that might be something to consider as a precedent.

[Nightmask]

As others have said, there are horrible things in the world today, the CS is no better and there is no distinction. We, finally, have proven what we have fought over for months and months.

There is a distinction. I also haven't seen this proof you're talking about.

Then you've deliberately chosen not to look at it.

[Shark_Force]

The CS: " Good, Evil, They are the ones with the nukes. "

But all joking aside I have to wonder if the founders of the CS who were the survivors of the coming of the rifts where not mentally scared by the hell of the coming of the rifts and all that followed it and became so grim and hard bitten that to them it's kill or be killed and anything that is not human is a danger to the continual survival of humanity so kill it/them or be killed or worse by it/them.

And after all the long years of fighting to stay alive that they lost their compassion and empathy towards the D-bees and magic users.

maybe. but the founders of the CS are long since dead. the CS hasn't been seriously threatened by pretty much anything for decades.

(that will change in the near future, and no, i don't mean the demon/deevil invasion. those are barely even a footnote unless you pretend all the numbers are completely different. i mean the xiticix, which are a few orders of magnitude more dangerous).

[dreicunan]

Except you ARE. You're moving the goalposts and making a dishonest argument.

Technology can permanently remove someone's PPE, can magic do that?
Technology can slaughter millions with the push of a button, how much mass destruction can magic bring out?
Technology can create independent, living beings with will and thought, pretty sure magic only summons or makes mindless automatons.
And the re-writing or altering of personalities via MOM and neural modification straddles the line of destroying souls, but that's a philosophical question and we just established you're not discussing things from an honest position.

My argument is in no way dishonest, and I've moved no goalpost. The assertion is that magic and technology is equally dangerous. The existence of the soul in Rifts is incontrovertible (see Rifts China for just one example of why). All of the dangers that you cite are dangers to the body, but I am unaware of any text that would indicate that permanently removing ppe or slaughtering millions also destroys their souls. By the way, we know that magic IS capable of wiping out millions with a touch of a button. See Vampire Sourcebook, page 12, on what would have happened had the doomsday machine been detonated in Chi-Town (and while it may be an artifact of legend, it proves that magic is indeed capable of that level of destruction).

However, magic is also capable of destroying your very soul. If anyone is aware of technology that can do so, please enlighten us; I am unaware of it. If technology is incapable of harming the soul, then it cannot be stated to be equally as dangerous as magic.

[Killer Cyborg]

Magic is what brings the demons to Rifts Earth.
Rifts technology can't do that yet.
Again, the apocalypse was a magical event.

I don't see any good argument that magic and tech are equally dangerous in the Rifts setting.

[Shark_Force]

Magic is what brings the demons to Rifts Earth.
Rifts technology can't do that yet.
Again, the apocalypse was a magical event.

I don't see any good argument that magic and tech are equally dangerous in the Rifts setting.

nuclear war would have made the planet pretty unpleasant to live on too. just because it doesn't bring demons (though it kinda did) doesn't mean it isn't having broadly the same effect.

[Killer Cyborg]

Magic is what brings the demons to Rifts Earth.
Rifts technology can't do that yet.
Again, the apocalypse was a magical event.

I don't see any good argument that magic and tech are equally dangerous in the Rifts setting.

nuclear war would have made the planet pretty unpleasant to live on too. just because it doesn't bring demons (though it kinda did) doesn't mean it isn't having broadly the same effect.

It was a limited nuclear exchange, not a full-blown war.
And no, "some places are destroyed and irradiated" isn't equal to "demons and natural disasters kill most of the population of the planet, and leave residual portals to numerous dimensions where more demons and monsters regularly emerge."

Also, keep in mind that the CS uses clean nukes that don't leave residual radiation.
I don't remember if it's specified that this is Golden Age tech, but that seems the most likely scenario.
Which means that the Golden Age nuclear exchange was just some big bombs going off... NOT the kind of thing that results in irradiated wastelands.

[boring7]

You say they're moving the goal posts, but you're talking hyperbole here.

Actually, I'm deconstructing the PROBLEM with moving the goalposts. You can say, "well tech can't do X therefore magic worse" and I can pull up a litany of "magic can't do Y therefore tech worse." It all begs the question without going anywhere.

Going insane via MOM isn't soul destruction, I don't think.

MOM alone can completely reverse someone, good becomes evil, evil becomes good, they cease to be who they were and become some kind of monster. To say nothing of more targeted or specific re-writing of personalities or modifying of character. You say, "that's not a soul" but it most certainly affects everything ascribed to the soul from their psychic aura to their ping on detection spells (like sense evil).

But if you start with a conclusion and then backtrack your reasoning, these philosophical questions have rather deterministic answers.

Except you ARE. You're moving the goalposts and making a dishonest argument.

Technology can permanently remove someone's PPE, can magic do that?
Technology can slaughter millions with the push of a button, how much mass destruction can magic bring out?
Technology can create independent, living beings with will and thought, pretty sure magic only summons or makes mindless automatons.
And the re-writing or altering of personalities via MOM and neural modification straddles the line of destroying souls, but that's a philosophical question and we just established you're not discussing things from an honest position.

My argument is in no way dishonest, and I've moved no goalpost.

Yeah, you did. You made an apples-to-oranges comparison and used begging the question to make your point. I pointed out several examples of the reverse (things tech can do that magic cannot) as an illustration of why this argument is inherently fallacious and dishonest.

This has even been pointed out numerous times; "they just have a few areas where they are better at that danger than the other"..."There may be some apples-to-oranges comparisons..." You can just arbitrarily decide "soul magic is worst-most-dangerous! Making monster-AIs not dangerous!" but you're being arbitrary. Oh, and while souls are part of defined Rifts metaphysics, your definition of what does or does not count as affecting/destroying souls is not. When you destroy a person by re-writing their brain with nanites, what happens to the soul?

Aaaaand there's the issue of what "danger" means. The whole fundamental (idiotic) concept of CS "no magic" rules is that magic is inherently dangerous because it is inherently uncontrollable. It is dangerous not because it can kill more people or do horrible things to a part of you that you can only sense/prove/know WITH magic*; but because unlike the SAMAS suit or the Psi-implants** or the insanity juice it is corruptive and wicked. Nuclear weapons are inherently more dangerous than conventional weapons, yet it seems the smart move is to HAVE them rather than get rid of them and loudly demand everyone else do the same. Prosek doesn't see it that way though.


*Which brings us to another point. If the cataclysm counts as magic, so does the soul. So the soul itself is magical and dangerous too. You have just said that one absitively, posolutely cannot find/affect the soul without magic...so that means it's magical in nature.
**Oh and we have psionic implants, nothing quite like using tech to get psychic to affect someone's soul, but again you beg the question and arbitrarily define those effects based on your "what defends Prosek best" karma-meter.

[Shark_Force]

Magic is what brings the demons to Rifts Earth.
Rifts technology can't do that yet.
Again, the apocalypse was a magical event.

I don't see any good argument that magic and tech are equally dangerous in the Rifts setting.

nuclear war would have made the planet pretty unpleasant to live on too. just because it doesn't bring demons (though it kinda did) doesn't mean it isn't having broadly the same effect.

It was a limited nuclear exchange, not a full-blown war.
And no, "some places are destroyed and irradiated" isn't equal to "demons and natural disasters kill most of the population of the planet, and leave residual portals to numerous dimensions where more demons and monsters regularly emerge."

Also, keep in mind that the CS uses clean nukes that don't leave residual radiation.
I don't remember if it's specified that this is Golden Age tech, but that seems the most likely scenario.
Which means that the Golden Age nuclear exchange was just some big bombs going off... NOT the kind of thing that results in irradiated wastelands.

*shrug* and magic has a lot of stuff that isn't "open millions of dimensional portals and make an entire planet a very unpleasant place to live for a rather long time" too. what's your point? technology has the power to render the entire earth into a pretty danged awful place to live. whether or not a given entity uses it or not. (not that i'm necessarily convinced that something which happened without anyone involved so much as believing that magic actually existed let alone actually understanding any of the principles involved is necessarily proof that *magic* is somehow to blame).

(also, if the nukes were genuinely all that clean, i doubt the CS would be all that reluctant to use them. more likely "clean" is relative).

[eliakon]

Magic is what brings the demons to Rifts Earth.
Rifts technology can't do that yet.
Again, the apocalypse was a magical event.

I don't see any good argument that magic and tech are equally dangerous in the Rifts setting.

nuclear war would have made the planet pretty unpleasant to live on too. just because it doesn't bring demons (though it kinda did) doesn't mean it isn't having broadly the same effect.

It was a limited nuclear exchange, not a full-blown war.
And no, "some places are destroyed and irradiated" isn't equal to "demons and natural disasters kill most of the population of the planet, and leave residual portals to numerous dimensions where more demons and monsters regularly emerge."

Also, keep in mind that the CS uses clean nukes that don't leave residual radiation.
I don't remember if it's specified that this is Golden Age tech, but that seems the most likely scenario.
Which means that the Golden Age nuclear exchange was just some big bombs going off... NOT the kind of thing that results in irradiated wastelands.

*shrug* and magic has a lot of stuff that isn't "open millions of dimensional portals and make an entire planet a very unpleasant place to live for a rather long time" too. what's your point? technology has the power to render the entire earth into a pretty danged awful place to live. whether or not a given entity uses it or not. (not that i'm necessarily convinced that something which happened without anyone involved so much as believing that magic actually existed let alone actually understanding any of the principles involved is necessarily proof that *magic* is somehow to blame).

(also, if the nukes were genuinely all that clean, i doubt the CS would be all that reluctant to use them. more likely "clean" is relative).

The argument that KC is putting forward is also VERY disingenuous.
That is because he is conflating magic the fundamental force, and magic the "science" that manipulates that force.
That is like claiming that technology is ALSO all fundamental forces...
That would mean that gravity, or light are also aspects of technology...
It is a subtle but insidious alteration that makes "magic the skill" orders of magnitude more dangerous than anything else... because it allows for natural events to be claimed to be magic.
Unless we are equally blaming science for things like hurricanes, earthquakes, super novae, and disease it is a fake equivalency.
No magic users can create a "coming of the rifts" anymore than scientists can create a star system.
Although I WOULD point out that there ARE technological weapons in the Rifts universe that can, and do destroy planets and stars on a regular basis...
Star Killers and Mechanoids for instance are both purely technological threats...
But they get swept under the rug by the anti-magic faction because they are awkward to admit to existing.

[eliakon]

Technology can permanently remove someone's PPE, can magic do that?
Technology can slaughter millions with the push of a button, how much mass destruction can magic bring out?
Technology can create independent, living beings with will and thought, pretty sure magic only summons or makes mindless automatons.
And the re-writing or altering of personalities via MOM and neural modification straddles the line of destroying souls, but that's a philosophical question and we just established you're not discussing things from an honest position.

You say they're moving the goal posts, but you're talking hyperbole here.

The push of a button to murder millions? With what? A nuclear weapon? There's some button pressing involved, sure. Though the missile has to launch correctly, get to it's target safely, and detonate properly. There's a lot more to it than "press button, people die", especially since someone could foretell/divine the incoming death with a spell, and stop it with teleportation or...oh, a rift defense spell that might have been used in some war or another.

So you are claiming that technology isn't really "push a button" because you look at the huge complex chain of events needed to make it work...
...but magic you ignore the exact same chain.
Sounds biased to me.

As to how much mass destruction can magic bring about...well, let's ask the Old Ones when they come back, or ask any of the shattered, half dead gods who survived sealing them. As far as mechanics, go check the WMD's Tolkeen had access to during the war, and also consider what a Wall of Lictalon would do to an advancing army.

How about we ask the Nigelian Confederacy about the Mechanoids?
Or the Three Galaxies about the Star Killers.
Oh, or the fact that the weapon that ended the Dominator War? Was a technological device that blew up a galaxy...

Magic can summon entities with plenty of sentient intelligence (literal "entities", by name...also Elementals and various other spirits).

But it can not create them.
Once you have your Ai plant running you can produce as many billions or trillions of killer AIs as you wish.

Going insane via MOM isn't soul destruction, I don't think. Though if someone knows whether or not Resurrection brings you back with your implants, or makes you whole again instead, that might be something to consider as a precedent.

Resurrection does not cure insanity, nor does it replace missing parts. You would be raised with your body, which would mean that your bionics would be still there.
Once insanity is caused, curing it is complex, risky, and not guaranteed.

As for what is soul destruction...
...I'll bite. What are you going to consider damage to/destruction of the soul?
I'm really curious considering the very limited discussion on souls in canon and how it tends to contradict itself regularly.
As far as I can determine... souls can not be destroyed at all in Palladium.
They can be tampered with, they can be imprisoned, they can be rewritten... but can not be destroyed...
...which sort of makes arguing about "soul destruction" moot.

[Alrik Vas]

So you are claiming that technology isn't really "push a button" because you look at the huge complex chain of events needed to make it work...
...but magic you ignore the exact same chain.
Sounds biased to me.

I said they could divine it, they can teleport it. Do they? I can't say, that depends. I'm not leaving it out on purpose. Next time I'll write a novel about it.

Edit: while there is no mechanic for failing a spell if you are not disturbed during casting, there are a number of things that can go wrong. Saving throws (though rare, most people don't bother with spells that get a save, according to many on this forum), being in range, having the PPE to cast, having visual on the enemy. There are some things that can hamper your chances of turning your enemies into frogs or dominating them, or whatever it is you're trying to do. What does that change about what i said regarding technology?

How about we ask the Nigelian Confederacy about the Mechanoids?
Or the Three Galaxies about the Star Killers.
Oh, or the fact that the weapon that ended the Dominator War? Was a technological device that blew up a galaxy...

I honestly don't understand this statement. Both sides of the argument have silly destructive power.

But it can not create them.
Once you have your Ai plant running you can produce as many billions or trillions of killer AIs as you wish.

Are we sure it can't create them? I mean, if you have a ley line can't you doppleganger yourself forever or something?

Resurrection does not cure insanity, nor does it replace missing parts. You would be raised with your body, which would mean that your bionics would be still there.
Once insanity is caused, curing it is complex, risky, and not guaranteed.

As for what is soul destruction...
...I'll bite. What are you going to consider damage to/destruction of the soul?
I'm really curious considering the very limited discussion on souls in canon and how it tends to contradict itself regularly.
As far as I can determine... souls can not be destroyed at all in Palladium.
They can be tampered with, they can be imprisoned, they can be rewritten... but can not be destroyed...
...which sort of makes arguing about "soul destruction" moot.

Well if it doesn't make you whole again, then that's fine. I'm still not convinced insanity is destroying the soul though.

As for the rest that's probably correct. I don't know of anything that destroys souls either.

[eliakon]

So you are claiming that technology isn't really "push a button" because you look at the huge complex chain of events needed to make it work...
...but magic you ignore the exact same chain.
Sounds biased to me.

I said they could divine it, they can teleport it. Do they? I can't say, that depends. I'm not leaving it out on purpose. Next time I'll write a novel about it.

Edit: while there is no mechanic for failing a spell if you are not disturbed during casting, there are a number of things that can go wrong. Saving throws (though rare, most people don't bother with spells that get a save, according to many on this forum), being in range, having the PPE to cast, having visual on the enemy. There are some things that can hamper your chances of turning your enemies into frogs or dominating them, or whatever it is you're trying to do. What does that change about what i said regarding technology?

Because you are handwaving away all the complications of magic as "just details" but harping on every possible little detail for technology.
When you start arguing that stuff like set up, or aiming, or the like is a limitation on tech, but gladly ignore training, or PPE, or availability, or saves, or counters to magic it shows a deep level of bias, intentional or not, but bias.
Magic and Tech are BOTH absurdly powerful, and both have limitations.
But it is disingenuous to only acknowledge one sides limitations and not those of the other.

How about we ask the Nigelian Confederacy about the Mechanoids?
Or the Three Galaxies about the Star Killers.
Oh, or the fact that the weapon that ended the Dominator War? Was a technological device that blew up a galaxy...

I honestly don't understand this statement. Both sides of the argument have silly destructive power.

Which is why claiming that magic is some how MORE destructive is absurd.
Magic and Tech are both vastly destructive.
And yet, once again you concentrate on one, exotic rare force (the Old Ones) as "proof" that magic is worse...
...while once again ignoring the equally bad or worse examples of Tech.

But it can not create them.
Once you have your Ai plant running you can produce as many billions or trillions of killer AIs as you wish.

Are we sure it can't create them? I mean, if you have a ley line can't you doppleganger yourself forever or something?

True, there is a mythical spell of Legend, found only in Palladium Fantasy, that is known to 2 or 3 beings that can make doppelgangers.
Which, btw, requires the caster to copy themselves and makes totally free willed copies of the mage. And there are some limits on doppelgangers as well.
Which is
1) utterly rare beyond plot coupon
2) not "killer AIs"
3) can not be mass produced

Resurrection does not cure insanity, nor does it replace missing parts. You would be raised with your body, which would mean that your bionics would be still there.
Once insanity is caused, curing it is complex, risky, and not guaranteed.

As for what is soul destruction...
...I'll bite. What are you going to consider damage to/destruction of the soul?
I'm really curious considering the very limited discussion on souls in canon and how it tends to contradict itself regularly.
As far as I can determine... souls can not be destroyed at all in Palladium.
They can be tampered with, they can be imprisoned, they can be rewritten... but can not be destroyed...
...which sort of makes arguing about "soul destruction" moot.

Well if it doesn't make you whole again, then that's fine. I'm still not convinced insanity is destroying the soul though.

It isn't "destroying the soul"
It is rewriting the soul.
You can't destroy a soul, so obviously that is not a valid criteria.
But you can "bend, fold, spindle and mutilate" said soul...
...and that can be done just as easily with magic as with technology.

As for the rest that's probably correct. I don't know of anything that destroys souls either.

Which is why I said that "soul destruction" isn't a valid criteria...
...because nothing and no one can do it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Magic is what brings the demons to Rifts Earth.
Rifts technology can't do that yet.
Again, the apocalypse was a magical event.

I don't see any good argument that magic and tech are equally dangerous in the Rifts setting.

nuclear war would have made the planet pretty unpleasant to live on too. just because it doesn't bring demons (though it kinda did) doesn't mean it isn't having broadly the same effect.

It was a limited nuclear exchange, not a full-blown war.
And no, "some places are destroyed and irradiated" isn't equal to "demons and natural disasters kill most of the population of the planet, and leave residual portals to numerous dimensions where more demons and monsters regularly emerge."

Also, keep in mind that the CS uses clean nukes that don't leave residual radiation.
I don't remember if it's specified that this is Golden Age tech, but that seems the most likely scenario.
Which means that the Golden Age nuclear exchange was just some big bombs going off... NOT the kind of thing that results in irradiated wastelands.

*shrug* and magic has a lot of stuff that isn't "open millions of dimensional portals and make an entire planet a very unpleasant place to live for a rather long time" too. what's your point?

That magic is more dangerous than technology in the Rifts setting.
"Magic does other stuff in addition to causing apocalypses" doesn't negate the whole causing apocalypses thing.
So... what's your point?

technology has the power to render the entire earth into a pretty danged awful place to live.

Yup.
It's quite dangerous.
Magic is more dangerous, though.

whether or not a given entity uses it or not. (not that i'm necessarily convinced that something which happened without anyone involved so much as believing that magic actually existed let alone actually understanding any of the principles involved is necessarily proof that *magic* is somehow to blame).

Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Is it that you believe that magic is something that only happens when people believe in it and deliberately activate it?

(also, if the nukes were genuinely all that clean, i doubt the CS would be all that reluctant to use them. more likely "clean" is relative).

CS Navy discusses the cleanness of the nukes.

[Killer Cyborg]

The argument that KC is putting forward is also VERY disingenuous.
That is because he is conflating magic the fundamental force, and magic the "science" that manipulates that force.

Sorry... was it specified earlier in the threat that we were only talking about the manipulation of magic forces, NOT those forces themselves?
If so, can you give me a quote and a link?

Because if it wasn't specified, then you're moving the goalposts here.

That is like claiming that technology is ALSO all fundamental forces...

Nope.
Because when the RMB defines magic, on p 161, it says this:
The basic concepts behind magic are simple. First, Magic is very real. It is a natural force that has existed since the dawn of time.

Magic is a natural force, as defined by canon.
It might also refer to use of that force, but technology isn't the same.
Technology is never "a natural force."
Magic is.

Although I WOULD point out that there ARE technological weapons in the Rifts universe that can, and do destroy planets and stars on a regular basis...
Star Killers and Mechanoids for instance are both purely technological threats.
But they get swept under the rug by the anti-magic faction because they are awkward to admit to existing.

I'm always happy to talk about mechanoids, and frequently do so.
I hold them up as one of the dangers of spellcasting, for example, because a lone shifter trying to demonstrate a single spell endangered the entire Rifts galaxy (at least) by accidentally summoning Mechanoids.
And yes, mechanoid technology is quite powerful--they eat planets.
But they're not a "purely technological" threat--they're technology mixed with powerful psionics.
Their technology alone is certainly dangerous, but they're not purely a technological threat.

[dreicunan]

Going insane via MOM isn't soul destruction, I don't think.

MOM alone can completely reverse someone, good becomes evil, evil becomes good, they cease to be who they were and become some kind of monster. To say nothing of more targeted or specific re-writing of personalities or modifying of character. You say, "that's not a soul" but it most certainly affects everything ascribed to the soul from their psychic aura to their ping on detection spells (like sense evil).

But if you start with a conclusion and then backtrack your reasoning, these philosophical questions have rather deterministic answers.

The psychic aura is not ascribed to the soul. Inanimate, non-living items have auras; they don't have souls.

Except you ARE. You're moving the goalposts and making a dishonest argument.

Technology can permanently remove someone's PPE, can magic do that?
Technology can slaughter millions with the push of a button, how much mass destruction can magic bring out?
Technology can create independent, living beings with will and thought, pretty sure magic only summons or makes mindless automatons.
And the re-writing or altering of personalities via MOM and neural modification straddles the line of destroying souls, but that's a philosophical question and we just established you're not discussing things from an honest position.

My argument is in no way dishonest, and I've moved no goalpost.

Yeah, you did. You made an apples-to-oranges comparison and used begging the question to make your point. I pointed out several examples of the reverse (things tech can do that magic cannot) as an illustration of why this argument is inherently fallacious and dishonest.

Actually, I already debunked your "slaughter millions of live with the push of a button" argument as previously cited (Vampire Sourcebook, page 12, Doomsday Machine and the effect it would have had were it activated in Chi-town).
Regarding PPE, technology cannot permanently remove it (while the casting of certain magic spells or types of magic (permanent line magic, for example) can). The use of cybernetics or bionics can reduce someone's PPE so long as they are connected. Book of Magic page 277 mentions that some mages cutting off bionic hands to restore their magic power (as well as citing other ways to get it back, although they may be unsavory or dangerous (Gene-splicers; Splurgoth Bio-wizards)). It is also made clear in multiple places that biosystems do not interfere with magic. Thus, not even total bionic conversion would necessarily deny a magic user PPE permanently. If you were referring to some other means that technology has to remove PPE, please cite it.
Creation of independent, living beings with will and thought? The Symbiote Conduits used by Lemurians in their combat vehicles would be one example (they can pilot the craft on their own; the Wind Seer is operated by a Symbiote Conduit alone); not to mention all the Lemurian War Steeds.
So, you have no remaining illustrations of why my argument is supposedly fallacious and dishonest.

This has even been pointed out numerous times; "they just have a few areas where they are better at that danger than the other"..."There may be some apples-to-oranges comparisons..." You can just arbitrarily decide "soul magic is worst-most-dangerous! Making monster-AIs not dangerous!" but you're being arbitrary. Oh, and while souls are part of defined Rifts metaphysics, your definition of what does or does not count as affecting/destroying souls is not. When you destroy a person by re-writing their brain with nanites, what happens to the soul?

I've not provided MY definition of what counts as affecting or destroying souls. I've cited canon examples from Rifts of what affects or destroys souls. As to the nanite question, good question. Have you found a canon answer?

Aaaaand there's the issue of what "danger" means. The whole fundamental (idiotic) concept of CS "no magic" rules is that magic is inherently dangerous because it is inherently uncontrollable. It is dangerous not because it can kill more people or do horrible things to a part of you that you can only sense/prove/know WITH magic*; but because unlike the SAMAS suit or the Psi-implants** or the insanity juice it is corruptive and wicked. Nuclear weapons are inherently more dangerous than conventional weapons, yet it seems the smart move is to HAVE them rather than get rid of them and loudly demand everyone else do the same. Prosek doesn't see it that way though.

*Which brings us to another point. If the cataclysm counts as magic, so does the soul. So the soul itself is magical and dangerous too. You have just said that one absitively, posolutely cannot find/affect the soul without magic...so that means it's magical in nature.
**Oh and we have psionic implants, nothing quite like using tech to get psychic to affect someone's soul, but again you beg the question and arbitrarily define those effects based on your "what defends Prosek best" karma-meter.

If you are looking for people making dishonest arguments, find a mirror and look in it. Nowhere in this thread have I made any arguments about the CS's view of magic. I responded to HWalsh's assertion that it had been proven that technology is just as dangerous as magic by pointing out a danger that magic poses which, to my knowledge, technology does not.
I have not said that the soul can only be affected with magic. I've said that magic can affect it but technology, to my knowledge, cannot. I haven't commented upon other things that may or may not affect it. I certainly haven't made any comment that would lead to the conclusion that the soul is magical in nature (but that is a novel piece of sophistry on your part).

[Shark_Force]

Magic is what brings the demons to Rifts Earth.
Rifts technology can't do that yet.
Again, the apocalypse was a magical event.

I don't see any good argument that magic and tech are equally dangerous in the Rifts setting.

nuclear war would have made the planet pretty unpleasant to live on too. just because it doesn't bring demons (though it kinda did) doesn't mean it isn't having broadly the same effect.

It was a limited nuclear exchange, not a full-blown war.
And no, "some places are destroyed and irradiated" isn't equal to "demons and natural disasters kill most of the population of the planet, and leave residual portals to numerous dimensions where more demons and monsters regularly emerge."

Also, keep in mind that the CS uses clean nukes that don't leave residual radiation.
I don't remember if it's specified that this is Golden Age tech, but that seems the most likely scenario.
Which means that the Golden Age nuclear exchange was just some big bombs going off... NOT the kind of thing that results in irradiated wastelands.

*shrug* and magic has a lot of stuff that isn't "open millions of dimensional portals and make an entire planet a very unpleasant place to live for a rather long time" too. what's your point?

That magic is more dangerous than technology in the Rifts setting.
"Magic does other stuff in addition to causing apocalypses" doesn't negate the whole causing apocalypses thing.
So... what's your point?

technology has the power to render the entire earth into a pretty danged awful place to live.

Yup.
It's quite dangerous.
Magic is more dangerous, though.

whether or not a given entity uses it or not. (not that i'm necessarily convinced that something which happened without anyone involved so much as believing that magic actually existed let alone actually understanding any of the principles involved is necessarily proof that *magic* is somehow to blame).

Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Is it that you believe that magic is something that only happens when people believe in it and deliberately activate it?

(also, if the nukes were genuinely all that clean, i doubt the CS would be all that reluctant to use them. more likely "clean" is relative).

CS Navy discusses the cleanness of the nukes.

- my point is that the fact that there was a magical apocalypse doesn't negate that there could just as easily have been a technological apocalypse (as is the case in other rifts settings; in splicers technology created an insane AI that reclassified humans as vermin and immediately set about applying pest control to them, and in after the bomb almost all of humanity was wiped out by a genetically engineered disease, for example). it was 100% possible for technology to render the planet just as inhospitable as the coming of the rifts.

- magic cannot be more dangerous on the basis that it can do pretty much the exact same thing technology could do. that is the opposite of logic. if both are equally capable of causing apocalyptic disasters, they're equally dangerous.

- nuclear war doesn't just mean that "some places are destroyed and irradiated". it can just as easily mean that most places are destroyed and irradiated. and again, just because the CS has supposedly clean nukes (which, again, they are remarkably reluctant to use if they are actually 100% clean) doesn't mean that technology is somehow not the source of the regular nukes we use today which could kill most of the people on the planet and leave most of the land an irradiated wasteland incapable of sustaining human life. if technology is somehow "not dangerous" because it has supposedly clean nukes in addition to the non-clean nukes, then magic must be equally not dangerous because it has non-dangerous aspects.

- the mechanoids were already a threat. magic didn't create the threat, it moved it. and, in fact, moved it in such a way that it turned out to not be much of a threat after all, as they were quickly and easily crushed once they were separated from their billions of mechanoid friends.

and no, they aren't really a technological and psionic threat. nobody is terrified that the mechanoids are going to show up on their planet and use telekinesis. the mechanoids do have psionics, but psionics is not the source of the threat. this is like saying that the splugorth are a strength-based threat because the splugorth have supernatural PS. while it is certainly true that the splugorth have supernatural PS, that isn't what people are worried about, it's the billions of loyal, heavily-armed minions including an unpleasantly large number of slavers traveling the world. nobody is worried that splynncryth might show up at their village and smash some buildings with his tentacles, they're worried that a couple of slaver barges and a dozen blind warrior women will show up, capture most of the people there, and bring them back to atlantis as slaves. likewise, when people fear the mechanoids, the fact that the mechanoids mostly have minor to major psionics is not remotely as important as the fact that the mechanoids have billions of technologically advanced cyborg warriors and robots with particle beams and plasma cannons and star-eating spaceships. nobody sees a mechanoid mothership approaching their star and thinks "oh good, they're just going to convert our sun into power cores and harvest everything on our planet to fuel their murderous crusade, i was really afraid for a moment that they were going to read my surface thoughts with telepathy".

[dreicunan]

As for what is soul destruction...
...I'll bite. What are you going to consider damage to/destruction of the soul?
I'm really curious considering the very limited discussion on souls in canon and how it tends to contradict itself regularly.
As far as I can determine... souls can not be destroyed at all in Palladium.
They can be tampered with, they can be imprisoned, they can be rewritten... but can not be destroyed...
...which sort of makes arguing about "soul destruction" moot.

Soul drinking weapons consume souls - see WB 2, page 128, "A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost." Clearly, souls can be destroyed.

[Nightmask]

As for what is soul destruction...
...I'll bite. What are you going to consider damage to/destruction of the soul?
I'm really curious considering the very limited discussion on souls in canon and how it tends to contradict itself regularly.
As far as I can determine... souls can not be destroyed at all in Palladium.
They can be tampered with, they can be imprisoned, they can be rewritten... but can not be destroyed...
...which sort of makes arguing about "soul destruction" moot.

Soul drinking weapons consume souls - see WB 2, page 128, "A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost." Clearly, souls can be destroyed.

Forever lost doesn't necessarily mean destroyed, it could mean lost to some realm that can never be accessed.

[Killer Cyborg]

As for what is soul destruction...
...I'll bite. What are you going to consider damage to/destruction of the soul?
I'm really curious considering the very limited discussion on souls in canon and how it tends to contradict itself regularly.
As far as I can determine... souls can not be destroyed at all in Palladium.
They can be tampered with, they can be imprisoned, they can be rewritten... but can not be destroyed...
...which sort of makes arguing about "soul destruction" moot.

Soul drinking weapons consume souls - see WB 2, page 128, "A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost." Clearly, souls can be destroyed.

Forever lost doesn't necessarily mean destroyed, it could mean lost to some realm that can never be accessed.

Perhaps, but can you agree that it can also mean "destroyed?"

[Killer Cyborg]

- my point is that the fact that there was a magical apocalypse doesn't negate that there could just as easily have been a technological apocalypse (as is the case in other rifts settings; in splicers technology created an insane AI that reclassified humans as vermin and immediately set about applying pest control to them, and in after the bomb almost all of humanity was wiped out by a genetically engineered disease, for example). it was 100% possible for technology to render the planet just as inhospitable as the coming of the rifts.

AFAIK, Splicers is a separate setting from Rifts.
I'm discussing specifically within the context of the Rifts setting, as it's a different case in different settings.
In PFRPG, Magic is clearly more dangerous than tech.
In N&S, Tech is more dangerous than magic.
In BtS.... Tech is probably more dangerous than magic.
In Splicers, Tech is definitely more dangerous.

In Rifts, magic is more dangerous.

- magic cannot be more dangerous on the basis that it can do pretty much the exact same thing technology could do. that is the opposite of logic. if both are equally capable of causing apocalyptic disasters, they're equally dangerous.

I don't consider "nuclear war" and "killing off most of the planet, while opening rifts for monsters to come through" to be "pretty much the same thing."
I can see arguments for either one being worse than the other (although I still come down on the side of magic being more dangerous), but I don't see them as pretty much the same thing.

- nuclear war doesn't just mean that "some places are destroyed and irradiated". it can just as easily mean that most places are destroyed and irradiated. and again, just because the CS has supposedly clean nukes (which, again, they are remarkably reluctant to use if they are actually 100% clean) doesn't mean that technology is somehow not the source of the regular nukes we use today which could kill most of the people on the planet and leave most of the land an irradiated wasteland incapable of sustaining human life.

You make a fair point here; just because the CS has clean nukes doesn't mean that they (or another tech power) couldn't flood the globe with dirty nukes/radiation if they felt like it.
It's still potentially dangerous.

if technology is somehow "not dangerous" because it has supposedly clean nukes in addition to the non-clean nukes, then magic must be equally not dangerous because it has non-dangerous aspects.

I don't think that anybody has claimed that tech is "not dangerous."

- the mechanoids were already a threat. magic didn't create the threat, it moved it.

Exactly.
It's the ability to move things from one environment to another that is partially responsible for the dangers of magic. Mechanoids might completely take over a single universe on their own... but only magic (in the Rifts setting) could let them take over multiple universes.

and, in fact, moved it in such a way that it turned out to not be much of a threat after all, as they were quickly and easily crushed once they were separated from their billions of mechanoid friends.

False claim.
We do not know that they were quickly crushed.
We don't know that they were easily crushed.
We don't know that they were completely crushed.
All of that is left open for GM's and players to sort out.

We do know that KS didn't intend for them to destroy the Rifts Universe, so there's some plot immunity there... but by that standard nothing is incredibly dangerous.

and no, they aren't really a technological and psionic threat. nobody is terrified that the mechanoids are going to show up on their planet and use telekinesis.

If they didn't use psychic powers, they couldn't get to the planet. Their technology works via psionic means.

this is like saying that the splugorth are a strength-based threat because the splugorth have supernatural PS. while it is certainly true that the splugorth have supernatural PS, that isn't what people are worried about, it's the billions of loyal, heavily-armed minions including an unpleasantly large number of slavers traveling the world.

It's more like saying that the Splugorth aren't a strictly magical threat.
Because they aren't. They (or their minions) use a LOT of technology

[Freemage]

The argument that KC is putting forward is also VERY disingenuous.
That is because he is conflating magic the fundamental force, and magic the "science" that manipulates that force.

Sorry... was it specified earlier in the threat that we were only talking about the manipulation of magic forces, NOT those forces themselves?
If so, can you give me a quote and a link?

Because if it wasn't specified, then you're moving the goalposts here.

That is like claiming that technology is ALSO all fundamental forces...

Nope.
Because when the RMB defines magic, on p 161, it says this:
The basic concepts behind magic are simple. First, Magic is very real. It is a natural force that has existed since the dawn of time.

Magic is a natural force, as defined by canon.
It might also refer to use of that force, but technology isn't the same.
Technology is never "a natural force."
Magic is.

Since the conversation is about CS policy, then we're talking about 'magic the skill' not 'magic the fundamental force'. The use of one word for two purposes does cloud discussion, but it's been pretty clear which version of the word is at play by CS critics saying "technology is just as dangerous as magic". Technology is the manipulation of natural forces; magic is the manipulation of magic energies. The CS has no official policies directing to the siphoning off of PPE from the planet, as far as I've seen (hell, in order to enact such a policy, they'd almost certainly need the aid of many spellcasters, and probably True Atlantean pyramid-builders, both of whom they're too busy purging from their territory to bother getting help from).

The Cataclysm, from what little I've read of the Lore on the subject, was a consequence of technological weapons (nukes and maybe other WMDs) causing sufficient destruction to unleash supernatural energies. It's the flipside to your Mechanoid argument, which was a magic-the-skill event that tapped into a largely technological threat. (Also, pointing to the Mechanoid psionics as a purely magic phenomenon doesn't quite jibe with CS teachings on the matter; after all, psychics are permitted, just registered and monitored. That suggests that official CS doctrine lumps psychic power in with natural forces that can be controlled and studied.)

The issue of soul debasement (I'll avoid the word 'destruction' since, as noted, souls can't be destroyed, merely altered) ultimately comes down to whether or not one believes that the actions of the body and state of the mind affect the status of the soul. If yes, then many of the technological implants (M.O.M., cyberware and Juicer rigs all have the potential to cause forms of psychosis, I'll note), would definitely apply. If not, then I suppose someone who gets a M.O.M. and in a psychotic break, slaughters an orphanage might still be considered an 'innocent soul'. It's an interesting metaphysical question, but I honestly have no idea if it's actually been addressed, meaning that this is an undecided (and thus useless to this discussion) issue.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, the CS is trying to close off the Gateway Arch, IIRC.
I don't recall anything in the books stating that the CS only hates magic when it's being wielded by someone.
So I'm kinda curious about where that viewpoint is coming from.

[boring7]

The psychic aura is not ascribed to the soul. Inanimate, non-living items have auras; they don't have souls.

Funny how you still fail to define what *is* ascribed to the soul. Beyond a vastly greater value than other intangible threats which only Technology can do. You drop a lot of implicit defining as well, a common method of making an argument you don't intend to defend.

Actually, I already debunked your "slaughter millions of live with the push of a button" argument as previously cited (Vampire Sourcebook, page 12, Doomsday Machine and the effect it would have had were it activated in Chi-town).

You did nothing of the sort. The doomsday machine has a number of things keeping it from being nearly as effective or dangerous (for one thing, it's just weaker). Also you're still patently refusing to acknowledge this whole business is moving the goalposts or arguing dishonestly.

Regarding PPE, technology cannot permanently remove it (while the casting of certain magic spells or types of magic (permanent line magic, for example) can). The use of cybernetics or bionics can reduce someone's PPE so long as they are connected. Book of Magic page 277 mentions that some mages cutting off bionic hands to restore their magic power (as well as citing other ways to get it back, although they may be unsavory or dangerous (Gene-splicers; Splurgoth Bio-wizards)). It is also made clear in multiple places that biosystems do not interfere with magic. Thus, not even total bionic conversion would necessarily deny a magic user PPE permanently. If you were referring to some other means that technology has to remove PPE, please cite it.

All listed instances of 'soul destruction' are equally reversible, and it's still something tech does that magic doesn't. Once again, the point continues to stand that you are creating dodges and subject changes to avoid the original topic and reframe the argument or distract from the point.

Creation of independent, living beings with will and thought? The Symbiote Conduits used by Lemurians in their combat vehicles would be one example (they can pilot the craft on their own; the Wind Seer is operated by a Symbiote Conduit alone); not to mention all the Lemurian War Steeds.

None of those things are created, they're modified from existing things.

Amusing Tangential: you could use THAT (and the more evil/messed-up bio-wizardry) as an example of 'things tech can't do" if not for Lone Star. that's not how science works dammit#welcometorifts

So, you have no remaining illustrations of why my argument is supposedly fallacious and dishonest.

Actually, none of that even addressed the inherent dishonesty of your argument. But you're declaring victory...so facts are irrelevant.

I've not provided MY definition of what counts as affecting or destroying souls. I've cited canon examples from Rifts of what affects or destroys souls. As to the nanite question, good question. Have you found a canon answer?

The closest you came to citing anything was a vague reference to the China book. Honestly, you haven't even defined what a soul is, beyond "it's a thing, it can be destroyed by magic (look upthread and apparently no it can't) and that makes magic objectively worse than technology." This implicitly assigns an arbitrary value, places that value above the value of other "threats" or "dangers" posed by technology, and you declare that valuation objective, canon, and clear when it is none of the above.

If you are looking for people making dishonest arguments, find a mirror and look in it. Nowhere in this thread have I made any arguments about the CS's view of magic.

That's actually part of the problem. You're trying to re-frame the discussion into something it wasn't. We were talking about magic vs. tech as a threat level and as a function of coalition policy. That's why most of us have studiously AVOIDED alien technology. Your attempt to change the subject is also dishonest.

I responded to HWalsh's assertion that it had been proven that technology is just as dangerous as magic by pointing out a danger that magic poses which, to my knowledge, technology does not.
I have not said that the soul can only be affected with magic.

Funny how you immediately contradict yourself. Also see above, since it's the same re-framing, context removal, and dishonesty.

I've said that magic can affect it but technology, to my knowledge, cannot. I haven't commented upon other things that may or may not affect it. I certainly haven't made any comment that would lead to the conclusion that the soul is magical in nature (but that is a novel piece of sophistry on your part).

Actually, you have. You may not remember your wandering, vague, terrible assertions last thread about what counts as "magic" but "detects as magic" was in there. By extension, this mean ANY form of magic detection (since you dismissed out-of-hand all the things that CAN'T detect a ley-line but can detect a magic user, or a magic spell, or a kid who rolled too high on his starting PPE) which includes magic detection spells that pick up souls (which I assume exist? Otherwise we're questioning the existence of souls again). Again, this is the problem, you make intentionally vague statements so that you can argue both sides of something depending on what conclusion you need at the moment.

Magic is a natural force, as defined by canon.
It might also refer to use of that force, but technology isn't the same.
Technology is never "a natural force."
Magic is.

If that's the case, then the argument is about physics vs. magic.

Or, you know, you're changing the subject, reframing the argument, and otherwise being fallacious.

[eliakon]

As for what is soul destruction...
...I'll bite. What are you going to consider damage to/destruction of the soul?
I'm really curious considering the very limited discussion on souls in canon and how it tends to contradict itself regularly.
As far as I can determine... souls can not be destroyed at all in Palladium.
They can be tampered with, they can be imprisoned, they can be rewritten... but can not be destroyed...
...which sort of makes arguing about "soul destruction" moot.

Soul drinking weapons consume souls - see WB 2, page 128, "A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost." Clearly, souls can be destroyed.

Again... that does not prove that they are destroyed.
It only means what it says.
And that is that the soul is forever lost.
Since things that fall into a black hole, or some dimensional openings are also forever lost...

Being trapped in the dimensional void inside a rune weapon is still 'forever lost'.

But since the text does not say that the soul is destroyed... it isn't
This is made even MORE clear in Armagedon Unlimited where it is revealed that soul magic can take the soul back out of the weapon. (and redefines what is being drained in the first place...)

Which takes us back to the core issue here.
No one is willing to define what a soul IS other than "Some sort of intangible, spiritual thing that exists and can be manipulated with soul magic."
Which isn't a definition, just a working description of a few features.

[Alrik Vas]

Because you are handwaving away all the complications of magic as "just details" but harping on every possible little detail for technology.
When you start arguing that stuff like set up, or aiming, or the like is a limitation on tech, but gladly ignore training, or PPE, or availability, or saves, or counters to magic it shows a deep level of bias, intentional or not, but bias.
Magic and Tech are BOTH absurdly powerful, and both have limitations.
But it is disingenuous to only acknowledge one sides limitations and not those of the other.

Except I didn't handwave it, and in what you quoted from me, I explained. You are accusing me of something I haven't done.

Which is why claiming that magic is some how MORE destructive is absurd.
Magic and Tech are both vastly destructive.
And yet, once again you concentrate on one, exotic rare force (the Old Ones) as "proof" that magic is worse...
...while once again ignoring the equally bad or worse examples of Tech.

Any fool with a machine shop and a guide book can make a nuclear weapon.
Any fool with a book of doom can destroy the megaverse.

True, there is a mythical spell of Legend, found only in Palladium Fantasy, that is known to 2 or 3 beings that can make doppelgangers.
Which, btw, requires the caster to copy themselves and makes totally free willed copies of the mage. And there are some limits on doppelgangers as well.
Which is
1) utterly rare beyond plot coupon
2) not "killer AIs"
3) can not be mass produced

The shoe seems to be on the other foot now with the whole bias thing.

Honestly this argument is pointless. We all know why the CS cracks down on magic, and it's got nothing to do with it's power relative to a laser rifle.

As others have said, there are horrible things in the world today, the CS is no better and there is no distinction. We, finally, have proven what we have fought over for months and months.

There is a distinction. I also haven't seen this proof you're talking about.

Then you've deliberately chosen not to look at it.

Naw, i just missed it and was asking for a quote.

[eliakon]

Because you are handwaving away all the complications of magic as "just details" but harping on every possible little detail for technology.
When you start arguing that stuff like set up, or aiming, or the like is a limitation on tech, but gladly ignore training, or PPE, or availability, or saves, or counters to magic it shows a deep level of bias, intentional or not, but bias.
Magic and Tech are BOTH absurdly powerful, and both have limitations.
But it is disingenuous to only acknowledge one sides limitations and not those of the other.

Except I didn't handwave it, and in what you quoted from me, I explained. You are accusing me of something I haven't done.

Which is why claiming that magic is some how MORE destructive is absurd.
Magic and Tech are both vastly destructive.
And yet, once again you concentrate on one, exotic rare force (the Old Ones) as "proof" that magic is worse...
...while once again ignoring the equally bad or worse examples of Tech.

Any fool with a machine shop and a guide book can make a nuclear weapon.
Any fool with a book of doom can destroy the megaverse.

Well... other than the part where the second line cant be done.
1) there is no canon way to destroy the Megaverse
2) "any fool" can only use a scroll

True, there is a mythical spell of Legend, found only in Palladium Fantasy, that is known to 2 or 3 beings that can make doppelgangers.
Which, btw, requires the caster to copy themselves and makes totally free willed copies of the mage. And there are some limits on doppelgangers as well.
Which is
1) utterly rare beyond plot coupon
2) not "killer AIs"
3) can not be mass produced

The shoe seems to be on the other foot now with the whole bias thing.

Really?
I am trying to make a pretty clear point here.
Nuclear weapons are not secret
AI tech is not secret
But this spell? Yes it is utterly secret.
That is why it is not easy to use.
Virtually every technological race has access to AI tech, but almost no one has access to the Doppelganger Spell.
And #2 and #3 are there because the spell can not be used to mass produce killer AIs.
Which sort of means that if it can not be used to do something, then it is not an example of a way to do that thing.
Short version is that the spell can not be used to provide magic with a way to mass produce killer AIs, which is still a trick only tech can do.

Honestly this argument is pointless. We all know why the CS cracks down on magic, and it's got nothing to do with it's power relative to a laser rifle.

Oh true.
The problem is that the CS Defenders try to make the (false) argument that magic is "just to dangerous" or that magic is somehow more powerful and more dangerous than technology.
Which, if you are arguing "devices built by tech" vs "The entire fundamental force of nature and not what can actually be controlled" is sort of almost true...
But that is really "Magic vs Physics" and gets us back to tied for levels of bad.

As others have said, there are horrible things in the world today, the CS is no better and there is no distinction. We, finally, have proven what we have fought over for months and months.

There is a distinction. I also haven't seen this proof you're talking about.

Then you've deliberately chosen not to look at it.

Naw, i just missed it and was asking for a quote.[/quote]

[Dunia]

To tired to care about this thread and edited out my post.

[Alrik Vas]

@eliakon

With the book of doom and nuke comparison, you missed my point. Trying to tie these things to a vacuum is pointless and disingenuous because the availability of items that can be called plot devices is entirely up to campaign specifics. RPGs have a lot of "this is that, but never this", but games are made around campaigns.

A nuclear weapon on the scale we are discussing is essentially a "book of doom." It only exists in the context of the game being played. Even the nukes the CS has listed in the Navy book aren't the kind of weapons being imagined when people mention the power of technology to annihilate millions.

[Killer Cyborg]

To tired to care about this thread and edited out my post.

You have just actually won the internet!

[Killer Cyborg]

Magic is a natural force, as defined by canon.
It might also refer to use of that force, but technology isn't the same.
Technology is never "a natural force."
Magic is.

If that's the case, then the argument is about physics vs. magic.

Or, you know, you're changing the subject, reframing the argument, and otherwise being fallacious.

Show me where it was orignally framed as "people using magic" instead of just "magic."
Seems to me that you guys are moving the goalposts.

[eliakon]

@eliakon

With the book of doom and nuke comparison, you missed my point. Trying to tie these things to a vacuum is pointless and disingenuous because the availability of items that can be called plot devices is entirely up to campaign specifics. RPGs have a lot of "this is that, but never this", but games are made around campaigns.

A nuclear weapon on the scale we are discussing is essentially a "book of doom." It only exists in the context of the game being played. Even the nukes the CS has listed in the Navy book aren't the kind of weapons being imagined when people mention the power of technology to annihilate millions.

The problem is that they are NOT just "book of dooms that only exist in the context of the game being played"
They flat out exist.
We know this because the books, repeatedly, talk about multi-mile craters from a nuke, or entire cities destroyed etc.
That means that they do exist, and just because the CS only has smaller ones given stats does not make the larger ones vanish.

A good example of a mega weapon is the Mass Driver...
1d4x100,000 MDC to a 5 mile radius
1d6x1,000 MDC to the next ten miles
4d6x10 MD to the NEXT ten miles
Yes, that means someone 25 miles away from the point of impact will take more damage than a direct hit with a Boom Gun.

Compare this with... um... well there is one secret circle that has had one person in the last 7,000 years know the secret to it.

[Shark_Force]

and, in fact, moved it in such a way that it turned out to not be much of a threat after all, as they were quickly and easily crushed once they were separated from their billions of mechanoid friends.

False claim.
We do not know that they were quickly crushed.
We don't know that they were easily crushed.
We don't know that they were completely crushed.
All of that is left open for GM's and players to sort out.

We do know that KS didn't intend for them to destroy the Rifts Universe, so there's some plot immunity there... but by that standard nothing is incredibly dangerous.

and no, they aren't really a technological and psionic threat. nobody is terrified that the mechanoids are going to show up on their planet and use telekinesis.

If they didn't use psychic powers, they couldn't get to the planet. Their technology works via psionic means.

this is like saying that the splugorth are a strength-based threat because the splugorth have supernatural PS. while it is certainly true that the splugorth have supernatural PS, that isn't what people are worried about, it's the billions of loyal, heavily-armed minions including an unpleasantly large number of slavers traveling the world.

It's more like saying that the Splugorth aren't a strictly magical threat.
Because they aren't. They (or their minions) use a LOT of technology

they're a footnote. if they had accomplished anything significant, we'd have heard something. we even have people later on basically saying "oh, uhh... we thought they might have been a major threat. turns out they weren't. crisis averted".

and their technology really doesn't use psionics in any meaningful way. i mean, sure, they're mentioned to do stuff like put control panels behind solid walls knowing that other mechanoids can use telekinesis to push a button. but it's *still* pretty much just a button. if they didn't all have telekinesis, they could just use buttons like anyone else. their particle beams are not psionically-empowered particle beams, they're just regular particle beams. their antigravity flight systems are not psionically-empowered antigravity flight systems, they're just regular antigravity flight systems (and while their particle beams and antigravity flight systems are certainly exceptional in many ways, they pretty much don't have anything to do with psionics).

and no, the psionic threat level of the mechanoids is not equivalent to the technological threat level of the splugorth, because an individual splugorth technological weapon is a meaningful threat while even tens of thousands of mechanoids using their most threatening psionic powers is probably not even equivalent to a few dozen of them just shooting you in the face with plasma cannons. you can compare the two, but it should only be in the sense that you could compare the size of a flea and a human; the small size of the flea only really serves to emphasize the much larger size of the human, or vice versa.

the mechanoids are not a psionic threat. they do have psionics. those psionic abilities are an insignificantly tiny part of what makes them in any way remotely threatening.

[Killer Cyborg]

they're a footnote.

They're an entire sourcebook.

if they had accomplished anything significant, we'd have heard something.

What they accomplish is left up to the GMs.

we even have people later on basically saying "oh, uhh... we thought they might have been a major threat. turns out they weren't. crisis averted".

A major threat averted was still a major threat.

and their technology really doesn't use psionics in any meaningful way.

I don't trust your credentials as an expert on how Mechnoid technology works, nor on how much it relies on their psionics.

[dreicunan]

As for what is soul destruction...
...I'll bite. What are you going to consider damage to/destruction of the soul?
I'm really curious considering the very limited discussion on souls in canon and how it tends to contradict itself regularly.
As far as I can determine... souls can not be destroyed at all in Palladium.
They can be tampered with, they can be imprisoned, they can be rewritten... but can not be destroyed...
...which sort of makes arguing about "soul destruction" moot.

Soul drinking weapons consume souls - see WB 2, page 128, "A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost." Clearly, souls can be destroyed.

Again... that does not prove that they are destroyed.
It only means what it says.
And that is that the soul is forever lost.
Since things that fall into a black hole, or some dimensional openings are also forever lost...

Being trapped in the dimensional void inside a rune weapon is still 'forever lost'.

But since the text does not say that the soul is destroyed... it isn't
This is made even MORE clear in Armagedon Unlimited where it is revealed that soul magic can take the soul back out of the weapon. (and redefines what is being drained in the first place...)

Which takes us back to the core issue here.
No one is willing to define what a soul IS other than "Some sort of intangible, spiritual thing that exists and can be manipulated with soul magic."
Which isn't a definition, just a working description of a few features.

Armagedon Unlimited did not retcon all soul drinking weapons everywhere. It introduced weapons of chaos that have a different version of the power than the rune weapons have. The soul is "consumed" by the soul drinking rune weapons. Not stored, consumed. If the soul were not destroyed, then the word consumed would make no sense.

[dreicunan]

Actually, you have. You may not remember your wandering, vague, terrible assertions last thread about what counts as "magic" but "detects as magic" was in there.

Well, I'm honored boring7. You've confused me with Killer Cyborg (whose arguments in that thread were cogent, specific, and wonderful). If I have to be confused with another poster, I'm glad it is with him.

As for goal-post moving, I demonstrated that the Doomsday Device can wipe out millions at the touch of a button (leaving a 1d4 mile in diameter crater in the process). You set forth a standard, I met it, and now it doesn't count because it is "weaker"? It is magical, and it kills millions of people at the touch of a button. It met the standard that you gave. To act like it hasn't is probably the clearest example of dishonest argument in the whole thread.

[Shark_Force]

they're a footnote.

They're an entire sourcebook.

if they had accomplished anything significant, we'd have heard something.

What they accomplish is left up to the GMs.

we even have people later on basically saying "oh, uhh... we thought they might have been a major threat. turns out they weren't. crisis averted".

A major threat averted was still a major threat.

and their technology really doesn't use psionics in any meaningful way.

I don't trust your credentials as an expert on how Mechnoid technology works, nor on how much it relies on their psionics.

they're an entire sourcebook that has now been resolved in the advancing metaplot.
the timeline has moved past. what they accomplished is only up to the GM in the sense that the GM can feel free to ignore whatever they want and make their own setting.
they weren't a major threat. at least, not in the context of rifts. there was a laughably small number of them, and their plan never really allowed for them to fix the numbers problem of having a miniscule fraction of the troop numbers of other major powers who were getting involved. they were a footnote, and based on the information in their own sourcebook, they deserved to be a footnote.
my credentials are the same as yours on mechanoid technology, so if you're going to have any credibility at all, you should doubt your own credibility in that field.

[Library Ogre]

Well, the CS is trying to close off the Gateway Arch, IIRC.
I don't recall anything in the books stating that the CS only hates magic when it's being wielded by someone.
So I'm kinda curious about where that viewpoint is coming from.

One of my long-held game ideas was to send a group of CS soldiers through the Gateway Arch and into 1962... with the intention of stopping the creation of the arch before it began (and interrupting the wizards who totally knew they were creating a massive portal, of course). Downside? No MDC weapons or armor. No master psychics.

[Nightmartree]

Well, the CS is trying to close off the Gateway Arch, IIRC.
I don't recall anything in the books stating that the CS only hates magic when it's being wielded by someone.
So I'm kinda curious about where that viewpoint is coming from.

One of my long-held game ideas was to send a group of CS soldiers through the Gateway Arch and into 1962... with the intention of stopping the creation of the arch before it began (and interrupting the wizards who totally knew they were creating a massive portal, of course). Downside? No MDC weapons or armor. No master psychics.

what are the chances of them bumping into supes? or pre-rifts aliens/monsters hiding out?

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, the CS is trying to close off the Gateway Arch, IIRC.
I don't recall anything in the books stating that the CS only hates magic when it's being wielded by someone.
So I'm kinda curious about where that viewpoint is coming from.

One of my long-held game ideas was to send a group of CS soldiers through the Gateway Arch and into 1962... with the intention of stopping the creation of the arch before it began (and interrupting the wizards who totally knew they were creating a massive portal, of course). Downside? No MDC weapons or armor. No master psychics.

Sounds fun!

[Alrik Vas]

@eliakon

With the book of doom and nuke comparison, you missed my point. Trying to tie these things to a vacuum is pointless and disingenuous because the availability of items that can be called plot devices is entirely up to campaign specifics. RPGs have a lot of "this is that, but never this", but games are made around campaigns.

A nuclear weapon on the scale we are discussing is essentially a "book of doom." It only exists in the context of the game being played. Even the nukes the CS has listed in the Navy book aren't the kind of weapons being imagined when people mention the power of technology to annihilate millions.

The problem is that they are NOT just "book of dooms that only exist in the context of the game being played"
They flat out exist.
We know this because the books, repeatedly, talk about multi-mile craters from a nuke, or entire cities destroyed etc.
That means that they do exist, and just because the CS only has smaller ones given stats does not make the larger ones vanish.

A good example of a mega weapon is the Mass Driver...
1d4x100,000 MDC to a 5 mile radius
1d6x1,000 MDC to the next ten miles
4d6x10 MD to the NEXT ten miles
Yes, that means someone 25 miles away from the point of impact will take more damage than a direct hit with a Boom Gun.

Compare this with... um... well there is one secret circle that has had one person in the last 7,000 years know the secret to it.

And you can purchase a mass driver for personal use at which corner store?

[HWalsh]

@eliakon

With the book of doom and nuke comparison, you missed my point. Trying to tie these things to a vacuum is pointless and disingenuous because the availability of items that can be called plot devices is entirely up to campaign specifics. RPGs have a lot of "this is that, but never this", but games are made around campaigns.

A nuclear weapon on the scale we are discussing is essentially a "book of doom." It only exists in the context of the game being played. Even the nukes the CS has listed in the Navy book aren't the kind of weapons being imagined when people mention the power of technology to annihilate millions.

The problem is that they are NOT just "book of dooms that only exist in the context of the game being played"
They flat out exist.
We know this because the books, repeatedly, talk about multi-mile craters from a nuke, or entire cities destroyed etc.
That means that they do exist, and just because the CS only has smaller ones given stats does not make the larger ones vanish.

A good example of a mega weapon is the Mass Driver...
1d4x100,000 MDC to a 5 mile radius
1d6x1,000 MDC to the next ten miles
4d6x10 MD to the NEXT ten miles
Yes, that means someone 25 miles away from the point of impact will take more damage than a direct hit with a Boom Gun.

Compare this with... um... well there is one secret circle that has had one person in the last 7,000 years know the secret to it.

And you can purchase a mass driver for personal use at which corner store?

The same corner store you can buy a spell of legend that can do the same kind of magical damage.

[Alrik Vas]

The same corner store you can buy a spell of legend that can do the same kind of magical damage.

Kinda my point.

[Library Ogre]

Well, the CS is trying to close off the Gateway Arch, IIRC.
I don't recall anything in the books stating that the CS only hates magic when it's being wielded by someone.
So I'm kinda curious about where that viewpoint is coming from.

One of my long-held game ideas was to send a group of CS soldiers through the Gateway Arch and into 1962... with the intention of stopping the creation of the arch before it began (and interrupting the wizards who totally knew they were creating a massive portal, of course). Downside? No MDC weapons or armor. No master psychics.

what are the chances of them bumping into supes? or pre-rifts aliens/monsters hiding out?

Depends on how you want to GM it. My idea was, essentially, an original BTS game where the PCs were Rifts characters, so there wouldn't be superheroes, but definitely lots of mundane opposition and a few Arcanists along as major opposition players. You could make it HU-lite and include some Supers, with CS street-level heroes trying to fight various power levels of supers, too, though.

[ShadowLogan]

Magic is what brings the demons to Rifts Earth.
Rifts technology can't do that yet.
Again, the apocalypse was a magical event.

I don't see any good argument that magic and tech are equally dangerous in the Rifts setting.

Rifts Technology can though open dimensional portals, which could in effect bring demons/devils to Rifts-Earth. IINM Lone Star HAS such a technological device, and IIRC a few D-Bee Races also used technology to come to Rifts-Earth w/no mention of magic being involved (Vernulians, Kremin for example both in WB30, originally in WB1o and WB11 respectively) and IIRC might also be another in Dinosaur Swamp in ruins (but still functioning) at Cape Canaveral.

The Apocalypse was a Techno-Magic Event. It was a variety of factors all coming together that allowed it to happen (you had the technologically induced deaths, releasing PPE at the wrong time which sparked the Ley Lines back to life). If it wasn't for that limited nuclear exchange USING TECHNOLOGY at the wrong time, there would have been no Great Cataclsym. So technology does bear some of the blame.

[Alrik Vas]

Magic is what brings the demons to Rifts Earth.
Rifts technology can't do that yet.
Again, the apocalypse was a magical event.

I don't see any good argument that magic and tech are equally dangerous in the Rifts setting.

Rifts Technology can though open dimensional portals, which could in effect bring demons/devils to Rifts-Earth. IINM Lone Star HAS such a technological device, and IIRC a few D-Bee Races also used technology to come to Rifts-Earth w/no mention of magic being involved (Vernulians, Kremin for example both in WB30, originally in WB1o and WB11 respectively) and IIRC might also be another in Dinosaur Swamp in ruins (but still functioning) at Cape Canaveral.

The Apocalypse was a Techno-Magic Event. It was a variety of factors all coming together that allowed it to happen (you had the technologically induced deaths, releasing PPE at the wrong time which sparked the Ley Lines back to life). If it wasn't for that limited nuclear exchange USING TECHNOLOGY at the wrong time, there would have been no Great Cataclsym. So technology does bear some of the blame.

Yeah, but none of that would have happened if not for the proper circumstances, and magic can be used to slaughter masses as well, that there was tech involved just makes for a convenient argument, I think.

But hey, I'm on the side that says they're pretty equally dangerous.

I'm also of the assertion that Demons are irrecoverably evil, but humans aren't.

[Nightmartree]

Yeah, but none of that would have happened if not for the proper circumstances, and magic can be used to slaughter masses as well, that there was tech involved just makes for a convenient argument, I think.

But hey, I'm on the side that says they're pretty equally dangerous.

I'm also of the assertion that Demons are irrecoverably evil, but humans aren't.

circumstances are everything, the right spell in the right place, a bomb in the proper position both of them can do massive amount of damage to people, places, things

and anyone saying magic or tech is weaker than the other, here is a simple solution...go build a better spell or better machine

also isn't there the enlightened demon class that shows what happens to "good demons"? apparently a lotta lesser ones are like human souls or something that return to human as they decorrupt? (this is not said as far as i know, just my assumption since they go from "demon" to human) while greater ones just change alignment

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, but none of that would have happened if not for the proper circumstances, and magic can be used to slaughter masses as well, that there was tech involved just makes for a convenient argument, I think.

But hey, I'm on the side that says they're pretty equally dangerous.

I'm also of the assertion that Demons are irrecoverably evil, but humans aren't.

circumstances are everything, the right spell in the right place, a bomb in the proper position both of them can do massive amount of damage to people, places, things

and anyone saying magic or tech is weaker than the other, here is a simple solution...go build a better spell or better machine

also isn't there the enlightened demon class that shows what happens to "good demons"? apparently a lotta lesser ones are like human souls or something that return to human as they decorrupt? (this is not said as far as i know, just my assumption since they go from "demon" to human) while greater ones just change alignment

Don't think those guys are Hades "demons", they're from a different folklore where corrupted humans become demons. So...if you used to be human, then you are indeed, not irrecoverably evil.

But if you are a creature of hell, made of pure evil, delighting in death and chaos purely for it's own merit and literally have nothing else within yourself other than the seven deadly sins (or what have you, take your pick), are unrepentant because the nature of your "species" finds the concept of redemption anathema, then i think that pretty well qualifies are irrecoverably evil.

Human beings on the other hand can be alignments other than internet Troll.

That's just my perspective tho.


Ah, and as to circumstances I gotta disagree. If a mage brought a giant doom meteor down on the planet during that particular planetary alignment, i believe the effect would have been the same.

[Nightmartree]

.


Ah, and as to circumstances I gotta disagree. If a mage brought a giant doom meteor down on the planet during that particular planetary alignment, i believe the effect would have been the same.

A mage calls down a comet of doom during a planetary alignment, a techy uses a tbsp of matter from a white dwarf and a MTE bomb to do the same thing (MTE matter to energy)

One needs a planetart alignment, the other a set of blueprints and a tbsp of hyper dense matter

Neither says much for the planets chances of survival, and before anyone argues "but you cant cause x and y and z" this is a fantasy game with several races having tech so advanced its "like magic" if it hasnt shown up yet someone just been to lazy to build it or you didnt go through the right rift...heck wait till the psychics get the "Quantum psi crystal" that makes one psychic a super computer, and allows them to store and use enough ISP that they become equal to giant robots or bigger, and of course lets make the mind link psi power so one psychic and link up with several other and now you have the equivelant of a super heavy robot or space ship...and its just a group of psionic dudes...but yet psi isnt a problem cause its not as bad as magic or tech...in reality its just no one putting out the effort to make it that bad

And all i was saying with circumstances is that there is no better, and both tech and magic rely heavily on what you have access to and how you can apply it to determine the power of each...so technically we have agreed from the start i think?