Proof that the CS is Evil

[Alrik Vas]

We might be.

Circumstance is that "tech did it", but in the tech vs magic argument, it's irrelevant because either can do the job.

Though this came from some part of the argument of someone supporting the CS's decisions on their policy vs magic based on how dangerous it is. I think the only argument is that there are naturally occurring creatures of magic out there that aren't bound by any kind of morality. That makes them only potentially dangerous. It's not a sure thing. Though the CS's entire argument is based on things that might happen, but don't necessarily.

Yet like I've said in countless other threads, I think they're below the benchmark of good guy, I think they can be evil for sure. I think the fascist organization that is the Coalition States is an evil political body dedicated to it's own self-interest. Though in practice, a lot of good things come out of it like regional stability via security and food for the masses, even the non-human, magic wielding masses. Though I'm certain they'd stop that if it were an efficient use of manpower.

My issue is with people who use blind, armchair morality in this situation, then cherry pick mechanics and fluff that often conflicts to illustrate their point. You don't need to do that to point out that the CS is an evil group. Fascism is an elitist form of rule, it excludes and oppresses, it's not a good thing in the slightest.

If you can have fascism in our modern world look attractive to some people, I can certainly see how it would be super attractive to people in Rifts where the ante is upped x100 by magic, shapeshifters and truly inhuman evil.

[Nightmartree]

We might be.

Circumstance is that "tech did it", but in the tech vs magic argument, it's irrelevant because either can do the job.

and this was all i was saying, also in reality the CS overall is evil, individual states, beings and units may not be. But the difference between the two is practically none when dealing with "The enemy". both will kill on sight magic users and D-Bees, part of its propaganda, the other part is reality, these guys are non super powered beings relying on their armor and weapons to resist a foe that can splatter them against a wall with a casual sneeze. Sure that may be a non hostile nice guy, but maybe he's a monster out to murder you, your family, your neighbors and he will make sure you suffer till the very end of it. A normal human has no way to tell, no way to resist, one wrong choice and you and everything you know could be in jeopardy. And from the point of view of humanity, where nice guy or villain they are all invaders on OUR earth. Its our right to defend ourselves, the only difference alignment makes in the coalition is in the methods they take in their war, and does it really matter if they feel remorse for burning down the D-bees homes and eradicating their villages? or if they feel glee? or maybe just the satisfaction of doing a good job to protect THEIR earth and homes.

let me ask you this, if you were moving through a nest of hostile alien monsters and stumbled onto their hatchery, what would you do? i think 90% of players would rig it with explosives and not look back.

What about the D-bees who look like humans or kids!? you wanna know about them? any dragon can shape shift into a toddler and walk right up to you and you'd never know it, and they are far from the only shapeshifting monster in rifts, just cause it looks human doesn't make it so, they're alien invaders and you have to be safe.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, you're kinda preaching to the choir on this one.

The CS sees itself in a battle for survival. That ignores a lot of morality humans in civilized societies tend to observe. Though I won't toss out the arguments of the CS's detractors either. If you look at the power the Coalition wields and the hold many believe it has on the regions it inhabits, you'd think they could afford to be more ethical. After all, Lazlo Lazlo Lazlo Lazlo, etc.

It's not a terrible argument, it's not very realistic, but the setting gives us these factors, no matter how unbelievable.

[Nightmartree]

Well, you're kinda preaching to the choir on this one.

The CS sees itself in a battle for survival. That ignores a lot of morality humans in civilized societies tend to observe. Though I won't toss out the arguments of the CS's detractors either. If you look at the power the Coalition wields and the hold many believe it has on the regions it inhabits, you'd think they could afford to be more ethical. After all, Lazlo Lazlo Lazlo Lazlo, etc.

It's not a terrible argument, it's not very realistic, but the setting gives us these factors, no matter how unbelievable.

ya i just figured i'd get my perspective off instead of trying to but into the already going arguments. And see the Coalitions holds the power, the CS won't be shaken by a rogue wizard or a lone dragon. But the CS as a whole does not equal the little weak humans who make up the pieces of it. And they are the ones being led by and powering the Coalitions war machine. Also the CS is spread across a pretty big area and much of that area is dotted and covered with ley lines and nexus points, Lazlo has mages and dragons and so on who can shut and control the rifts. The CS does not and why should they take the risk that whatever thing that popped out of the rift is a "good guy" heck, even if they are a good guy, whats to say they wont cause trouble? harm the CS, or its citizens, it may not do it maliciously but one accident from a mdc being and something sdc breaks. In fact with its current distrust of D-bees and magic, chances are anything from a rift would do exactly what the CS fears, its a self fulfilling cycle. (Also the CS actually has less nexus points and so on within its borders than most places which was the canon reason they survived the rifts as a large intact human population, but this as far as i can tell only account for a few of the older CS states, many have expanded into region with the "normal" lvl of magic) anyway...i'm pretty sure i strayed off topic and got lost...

but key point is the CS overall is evil, but its driven not by a lust for power or an enjoyment of suffering like most alien evil empires but by the fear and vulnerability of the masses in a world were they may die at any time to beings they have never even heard of before. This means that there is just as much chance for good or selfish members of the CS as there are evil, but all three alignment categories will still blow your D-bee hide to Hades in half a heart beat no matter how you look or what your ideals are.

[Shark_Force]

We might be.

Circumstance is that "tech did it", but in the tech vs magic argument, it's irrelevant because either can do the job.

and this was all i was saying, also in reality the CS overall is evil, individual states, beings and units may not be. But the difference between the two is practically none when dealing with "The enemy". both will kill on sight magic users and D-Bees, part of its propaganda, the other part is reality, these guys are non super powered beings relying on their armor and weapons to resist a foe that can splatter them against a wall with a casual sneeze. Sure that may be a non hostile nice guy, but maybe he's a monster out to murder you, your family, your neighbors and he will make sure you suffer till the very end of it. A normal human has no way to tell, no way to resist, one wrong choice and you and everything you know could be in jeopardy. And from the point of view of humanity, where nice guy or villain they are all invaders on OUR earth. Its our right to defend ourselves, the only difference alignment makes in the coalition is in the methods they take in their war, and does it really matter if they feel remorse for burning down the D-bees homes and eradicating their villages? or if they feel glee? or maybe just the satisfaction of doing a good job to protect THEIR earth and homes.

let me ask you this, if you were moving through a nest of hostile alien monsters and stumbled onto their hatchery, what would you do? i think 90% of players would rig it with explosives and not look back.

What about the D-bees who look like humans or kids!? you wanna know about them? any dragon can shape shift into a toddler and walk right up to you and you'd never know it, and they are far from the only shapeshifting monster in rifts, just cause it looks human doesn't make it so, they're alien invaders and you have to be safe.

problem with the argument that the enemy is super powerful and could kill you in a moment... give me a 4 inch knife blade and i could kill you in a moment. i have many of them here in the house with me right now. and yet most people are not getting stabbed to death, or shot, or beaten to death with a club, etc, even though other people around have the capability to do those things. could that big strong d-bee kill you? sure, probably. so can that person in the angry mob beside you with the shotgun. if the latter is not reason to kill the guy with the shotgun, the former is not reason to kill the big strong d-bee.

furthermore, most of them are not invaders of our earth. most of them got dragged to earth against their will because of something humans did. many of them have since been welcomed to live with humans who have just as much ownership of their part of the earth as anyone in the CS has of their own part of the earth. if the CS was only killing things that show up and start killing people, they wouldn't be evil. instead, they just kill everything on the basis that maybe it's a bad thing, and that is just plain evil.

ya i just figured i'd get my perspective off instead of trying to but into the already going arguments. And see the Coalitions holds the power, the CS won't be shaken by a rogue wizard or a lone dragon. But the CS as a whole does not equal the little weak humans who make up the pieces of it. And they are the ones being led by and powering the Coalitions war machine. Also the CS is spread across a pretty big area and much of that area is dotted and covered with ley lines and nexus points, Lazlo has mages and dragons and so on who can shut and control the rifts. The CS does not and why should they take the risk that whatever thing that popped out of the rift is a "good guy" heck, even if they are a good guy, whats to say they wont cause trouble? harm the CS, or its citizens, it may not do it maliciously but one accident from a mdc being and something sdc breaks. In fact with its current distrust of D-bees and magic, chances are anything from a rift would do exactly what the CS fears, its a self fulfilling cycle. (Also the CS actually has less nexus points and so on within its borders than most places which was the canon reason they survived the rifts as a large intact human population, but this as far as i can tell only account for a few of the older CS states, many have expanded into region with the "normal" lvl of magic) anyway...i'm pretty sure i strayed off topic and got lost...

but key point is the CS overall is evil, but its driven not by a lust for power or an enjoyment of suffering like most alien evil empires but by the fear and vulnerability of the masses in a world were they may die at any time to beings they have never even heard of before. This means that there is just as much chance for good or selfish members of the CS as there are evil, but all three alignment categories will still blow your D-bee hide to Hades in half a heart beat no matter how you look or what your ideals are.

the CS is overall driven by a lust for power. the people with a lust for power wanted to go murder everyone in tolkeen, and they decided to go do it. the people who are afraid are not the ones making the decisions, it's the ones who want power and control; they drive the coalition states, therefore, the coalition states are driven by a lust for power. it is true that not everyone in the CS is full-blown evil, but it's hard to reconcile "good" with "is totally ok with committing murder on the off chance that the thing murdered could possibly be a threat", or "doesn't care enough to actually find out if what they're doing is the right thing". you can certainly be a solid "selfish" with those attitudes.

now, certainly, the CS is not the same kind of evil as, say... the demons and deevils invading the planet. it is a very human, understandable kind of evil. i can certainly look at what they're doing, and see why they're doing it; they're not listening to logic or reason, they just want to be safe, and they're willing to turn a blind eye to the things they'd rather not admit are happening for that safety. i get that. heck, if i was in their situation, maybe i'd feel the same way.

and if i did, then i wouldn't be good either. the fact that i can understand it, that it is a very human kind of evil, doesn't somehow make it not evil.

[Nightmartree]

We might be.

Circumstance is that "tech did it", but in the tech vs magic argument, it's irrelevant because either can do the job.

and this was all i was saying, also in reality the CS overall is evil, individual states, beings and units may not be. But the difference between the two is practically none when dealing with "The enemy". both will kill on sight magic users and D-Bees, part of its propaganda, the other part is reality, these guys are non super powered beings relying on their armor and weapons to resist a foe that can splatter them against a wall with a casual sneeze. Sure that may be a non hostile nice guy, but maybe he's a monster out to murder you, your family, your neighbors and he will make sure you suffer till the very end of it. A normal human has no way to tell, no way to resist, one wrong choice and you and everything you know could be in jeopardy. And from the point of view of humanity, where nice guy or villain they are all invaders on OUR earth. Its our right to defend ourselves, the only difference alignment makes in the coalition is in the methods they take in their war, and does it really matter if they feel remorse for burning down the D-bees homes and eradicating their villages? or if they feel glee? or maybe just the satisfaction of doing a good job to protect THEIR earth and homes.

let me ask you this, if you were moving through a nest of hostile alien monsters and stumbled onto their hatchery, what would you do? i think 90% of players would rig it with explosives and not look back.

What about the D-bees who look like humans or kids!? you wanna know about them? any dragon can shape shift into a toddler and walk right up to you and you'd never know it, and they are far from the only shapeshifting monster in rifts, just cause it looks human doesn't make it so, they're alien invaders and you have to be safe.

problem with the argument that the enemy is super powerful and could kill you in a moment... give me a 4 inch knife blade and i could kill you in a moment. i have many of them here in the house with me right now. and yet most people are not getting stabbed to death, or shot, or beaten to death with a club, etc, even though other people around have the capability to do those things. could that big strong d-bee kill you? sure, probably. so can that person in the angry mob beside you with the shotgun. if the latter is not reason to kill the guy with the shotgun, the former is not reason to kill the big strong d-bee.

furthermore, most of them are not invaders of our earth. most of them got dragged to earth against their will because of something humans did. many of them have since been welcomed to live with humans who have just as much ownership of their part of the earth as anyone in the CS has of their own part of the earth. if the CS was only killing things that show up and start killing people, they wouldn't be evil. instead, they just kill everything on the basis that maybe it's a bad thing, and that is just plain evil.

ya i just figured i'd get my perspective off instead of trying to but into the already going arguments. And see the Coalitions holds the power, the CS won't be shaken by a rogue wizard or a lone dragon. But the CS as a whole does not equal the little weak humans who make up the pieces of it. And they are the ones being led by and powering the Coalitions war machine. Also the CS is spread across a pretty big area and much of that area is dotted and covered with ley lines and nexus points, Lazlo has mages and dragons and so on who can shut and control the rifts. The CS does not and why should they take the risk that whatever thing that popped out of the rift is a "good guy" heck, even if they are a good guy, whats to say they wont cause trouble? harm the CS, or its citizens, it may not do it maliciously but one accident from a mdc being and something sdc breaks. In fact with its current distrust of D-bees and magic, chances are anything from a rift would do exactly what the CS fears, its a self fulfilling cycle. (Also the CS actually has less nexus points and so on within its borders than most places which was the canon reason they survived the rifts as a large intact human population, but this as far as i can tell only account for a few of the older CS states, many have expanded into region with the "normal" lvl of magic) anyway...i'm pretty sure i strayed off topic and got lost...

but key point is the CS overall is evil, but its driven not by a lust for power or an enjoyment of suffering like most alien evil empires but by the fear and vulnerability of the masses in a world were they may die at any time to beings they have never even heard of before. This means that there is just as much chance for good or selfish members of the CS as there are evil, but all three alignment categories will still blow your D-bee hide to Hades in half a heart beat no matter how you look or what your ideals are.

the CS is overall driven by a lust for power. the people with a lust for power wanted to go murder everyone in tolkeen, and they decided to go do it. the people who are afraid are not the ones making the decisions, it's the ones who want power and control; they drive the coalition states, therefore, the coalition states are driven by a lust for power. it is true that not everyone in the CS is full-blown evil, but it's hard to reconcile "good" with "is totally ok with committing murder on the off chance that the thing murdered could possibly be a threat", or "doesn't care enough to actually find out if what they're doing is the right thing". you can certainly be a solid "selfish" with those attitudes.

now, certainly, the CS is not the same kind of evil as, say... the demons and deevils invading the planet. it is a very human, understandable kind of evil. i can certainly look at what they're doing, and see why they're doing it; they're not listening to logic or reason, they just want to be safe, and they're willing to turn a blind eye to the things they'd rather not admit are happening for that safety. i get that. heck, if i was in their situation, maybe i'd feel the same way.

and if i did, then i wouldn't be good either. the fact that i can understand it, that it is a very human kind of evil, doesn't somehow make it not evil.

I have stated that the CS overall is evil, but those people with a lust for power wouldn't be in a position to do anything without the fear of the masses driving them, so to me the CS isn't power hungry. The CS is fear driven which is why i said that it opens the avenue for good and selfish characters to more easily appear. And your right mostly (i believe it even says this somewhere in one of the books) most people are selfish, your rarely going to find a good or evil human, just one out for their own survival.

and ya you may be able to kill me with a knife or a shotgun, but i could struggle, people could fight back. We could resist...but what would you do if you were fighting a gun who your knife, shotgun, hand grenade, and missile launcher...don't even faze? what will you do when your neighbor vanishes one night and then staggers back into town, and when you go to help him, ask what happen and can you help, he suddenly grows fangs and tears out your throat? and as sucky as it is to say, the D-bee who isn't gonna tear you limb from limb or blast you with arcane arts or peel the flesh from your bones and wear it as a suit...those guys aren't a problem, but how do you know that? hell how do THEY know that? how do you trust this thing you've never met before not to be one of those things that will wear you as a suit?

In addition, the ones who are ripped by chance and surprise unprepared to rifts earth...chances are those aren't going to be the guys living to walk into town the next day. Chances are they have either been eaten, shot by someone not taking a chance or die because they cant survive this world (we can be rifted to realms that would kill us in an instant, why cant others).

The disparity between MDC and SDC, combined with the extra powers of psionics or magic make the supernatural something far beyond what a "normal" human could hope to defeat. Even if your in your armor and armed with MD weapons that fear doesn't just leave. Not when you've watched your friends peeled out of their armor and eaten alive. Not when you go home to visit your family and find THINGS that look like them living in their place. Rifts earth isn't a place for good intentions, the only reason we can debate such concepts as good and evil as PC's id because we are the few powerful enough to make those choices.

like i said originally, the alignment for a CS soldier is irrelevant when your on the other side of their war. Evil will torture and delight in your pain, good will hunt you to prevent more monsters harming the "innocent humans" they protect, and selfish just wants to live. but all three will blow you away for being something nothuman, something dangerous, and something they can't give a chance to, because whats at the other end of their gun barrels is the enemy, and they never know what that enemy is truly capable of in this madness that is...rifts earth.

[Killer Cyborg]

Magic is what brings the demons to Rifts Earth.
Rifts technology can't do that yet.
Again, the apocalypse was a magical event.

I don't see any good argument that magic and tech are equally dangerous in the Rifts setting.

Rifts Technology can though open dimensional portals, which could in effect bring demons/devils to Rifts-Earth. IINM Lone Star HAS such a technological device, and IIRC a few D-Bee Races also used technology to come to Rifts-Earth w/no mention of magic being involved (Vernulians, Kremin for example both in WB30, originally in WB1o and WB11 respectively) and IIRC might also be another in Dinosaur Swamp in ruins (but still functioning) at Cape Canaveral.

Eh. Only kind of, compared to magic.
It's like comparing an Atari 2600 to an iPhone.

The Apocalypse was a Techno-Magic Event. It was a variety of factors all coming together that allowed it to happen (you had the technologically induced deaths, releasing PPE at the wrong time which sparked the Ley Lines back to life). If it wasn't for that limited nuclear exchange USING TECHNOLOGY at the wrong time, there would have been no Great Cataclsym. So technology does bear some of the blame.

Tech was the spark.
Magic was the gasoline.
Which is more dangerous, sparks or gasoline?

[Nightmartree]

The Apocalypse was a Techno-Magic Event. It was a variety of factors all coming together that allowed it to happen (you had the technologically induced deaths, releasing PPE at the wrong time which sparked the Ley Lines back to life). If it wasn't for that limited nuclear exchange USING TECHNOLOGY at the wrong time, there would have been no Great Cataclsym. So technology does bear some of the blame.

Tech was the spark.
Magic was the gasoline.
Which is more dangerous, sparks or gasoline?

i think this is a good comparison, except that its kinda misused with the last line. Tech was the spark and magic a waiting pile of gasoline, but so is any other situation were one thing sets off a big reaction. what happens if you used a fireball to throw into a massive pile of heat activated explosives? yes its on a far smaller scale, but that's just because we don't currently have a stockpile of world destroying level tech lying around to be accessed as long as you cast the right spell. The coming of the rifts was a big oops, were that fireball was nukes that detonated the pile of explosives, aka magic energy, resulting in a chain reaction, just like if that pile of explosives is next to the fuel stores for the space station your standing on.

I mean i remember more than one movie using really big bombs to deflect meteorites away from the earth that would eradicate all life...so why can't it know that meteorite onto a collision course? we still get a cataclysm, and no magic involved

[Killer Cyborg]

The Apocalypse was a Techno-Magic Event. It was a variety of factors all coming together that allowed it to happen (you had the technologically induced deaths, releasing PPE at the wrong time which sparked the Ley Lines back to life). If it wasn't for that limited nuclear exchange USING TECHNOLOGY at the wrong time, there would have been no Great Cataclsym. So technology does bear some of the blame.

Tech was the spark.
Magic was the gasoline.
Which is more dangerous, sparks or gasoline?

i think this is a good comparison, except that its kinda misused with the last line. Tech was the spark and magic a waiting pile of gasoline, but so is any other situation were one thing sets off a big reaction. what happens if you used a fireball to throw into a massive pile of heat activated explosives? yes its on a far smaller scale, but that's just because we don't currently have a stockpile of world destroying level tech lying around to be accessed as long as you cast the right spell. The coming of the rifts was a big oops, were that fireball was nukes that detonated the pile of explosives, aka magic energy, resulting in a chain reaction, just like if that pile of explosives is next to the fuel stores for the space station your standing on.

We'd have to stockpile explosives.
Magic was naturally stockpiled.

I mean i remember more than one movie using really big bombs to deflect meteorites away from the earth that would eradicate all life...so why can't it know that meteorite onto a collision course? we still get a cataclysm, and no magic involved

Huh?

[Nightmartree]

The Apocalypse was a Techno-Magic Event. It was a variety of factors all coming together that allowed it to happen (you had the technologically induced deaths, releasing PPE at the wrong time which sparked the Ley Lines back to life). If it wasn't for that limited nuclear exchange USING TECHNOLOGY at the wrong time, there would have been no Great Cataclsym. So technology does bear some of the blame.

Tech was the spark.
Magic was the gasoline.
Which is more dangerous, sparks or gasoline?

i think this is a good comparison, except that its kinda misused with the last line. Tech was the spark and magic a waiting pile of gasoline, but so is any other situation were one thing sets off a big reaction. what happens if you used a fireball to throw into a massive pile of heat activated explosives? yes its on a far smaller scale, but that's just because we don't currently have a stockpile of world destroying level tech lying around to be accessed as long as you cast the right spell. The coming of the rifts was a big oops, were that fireball was nukes that detonated the pile of explosives, aka magic energy, resulting in a chain reaction, just like if that pile of explosives is next to the fuel stores for the space station your standing on.

We'd have to stockpile explosives.
Magic was naturally stockpiled.

I mean i remember more than one movie using really big bombs to deflect meteorites away from the earth that would eradicate all life...so why can't it know that meteorite onto a collision course? we still get a cataclysm, and no magic involved

Huh?

basically what the coming of the rifts was, is a natural disaster of planetary scale triggered by technology

if someone decided the didn't like the earth and used technology to redirect a planet breaker asteroid towards us it'd be the same thing, just in this case not an accident (i could contrive a situation where the asteroid or something impacts the earth and does what the rifts did, but would it be any more believable than the feedback of magic energy from millions of deaths triggering a cycle of death and magical energy to the point the earth tears open holes to other dimensions?)

Edit: actually one second i'm gonna go do that

[Killer Cyborg]

The Apocalypse was a Techno-Magic Event. It was a variety of factors all coming together that allowed it to happen (you had the technologically induced deaths, releasing PPE at the wrong time which sparked the Ley Lines back to life). If it wasn't for that limited nuclear exchange USING TECHNOLOGY at the wrong time, there would have been no Great Cataclsym. So technology does bear some of the blame.

Tech was the spark.
Magic was the gasoline.
Which is more dangerous, sparks or gasoline?

i think this is a good comparison, except that its kinda misused with the last line. Tech was the spark and magic a waiting pile of gasoline, but so is any other situation were one thing sets off a big reaction. what happens if you used a fireball to throw into a massive pile of heat activated explosives? yes its on a far smaller scale, but that's just because we don't currently have a stockpile of world destroying level tech lying around to be accessed as long as you cast the right spell. The coming of the rifts was a big oops, were that fireball was nukes that detonated the pile of explosives, aka magic energy, resulting in a chain reaction, just like if that pile of explosives is next to the fuel stores for the space station your standing on.

We'd have to stockpile explosives.
Magic was naturally stockpiled.

I mean i remember more than one movie using really big bombs to deflect meteorites away from the earth that would eradicate all life...so why can't it know that meteorite onto a collision course? we still get a cataclysm, and no magic involved

Huh?

basically what the coming of the rifts was, is a natural disaster of planetary scale triggered by technology

Only it wasn't a natural disaster; it was a supernatural disaster.

if someone decided the didn't like the earth and used technology to redirect a planet breaker asteroid towards us it'd be the same thing, just in this case not an accident

No, redirecting a planet-killer wouldn't open up gates to other dimensions, not without magic.

[Nightmartree]

The old warrior across from you flicks the remains of a cig into the ashes of your fire before he turns to gaze at the stars. "It was science that did us in you know. It raised us up first, the creation of clean energy, the development of a better human, and technology our ancestors thought could never be made real. But in one moment, one accident changed our world from a utopia..." His voice trails off and he gazes out across the wastes. "...To hell. The Delta Saint, was supposed to be humanities greatest achievement, a ship that could travel faster than light and reach systems. Who knew that on the day of its launch there would be an accident and the ship would be slung off course. Who could have known that it would return years later, having never reached its planned destination, a crash resetting its systems and telling it to return home. To return with...The Source" The old man adjusts his battle harness as a inhuman howl raises the hair on the back of your neck and a laser blast flies over your head from the gleaming bio dome behind you. A boom and flash of fire later and the old man continues unruffled by the death of something out there. "you see back then what the Delta crashed into was a meteorite big enough to crack a planet wide open. Now this wouldn't be a problem for the people back then, they had all kinds of ways to stop things like that, heck delta alone would have gone right through any common meteorite as if it was paper. But not this one, this one was different, you see it had the Source. A blue metal that emitted energy waves like nothing we here on earth had ever seen. It was that energy which caused a flux in the Delta's shields and let it crash headfirst into the rock" The old man spits in disgust his face twisting "Its the source that killed or changed all the crew, making something else other than human, something alien, something cunning. When the Delta returned it came at speed the fastest ship we'd ever made, the best shields, now somehow drawing power and covering the source that should have been far to big for it to push. Our fleets couldn't stop it, out space stations fell disrupted by the strange energy emitted by the Source. And then it hit our atmosphere, breaking apart and falling across our planet, as if it hadn't just shrugged off the best we could throw at it. It rained death and destruction onto humanity and we fled for cover as out technology turned unreliable and our skies filled with ash and debris. Quickly we began to find our utopia falling, those who survived the destruction found our machines no longer worked, or only worked part way, or even worked only for the Source. Then as the skies turned dark and our scientists struggled to find a way to shield our technology from the Source's energy we discovered the other effect of that damn rock" The old man's eyes turn fierce as he turns to stare you in the eyes "The Source, the Source of Monsters, life that lives around the fragments of meteorite began to mutate and change, a single celled alien lifeform and the energy waves from the Source's metal was all it took and soon our planet was overrun by mutated beings, some were once human, others beasts or plants, some are even rock and metal given life and form by the source. Humanity without its technology was vulnerable and even the weak things born back then were too dangerous driving us back and slaughtering us in droves as our own planet began to become too hostile for us to survive" The old made draws his saber admiring the gleam. "but we did not fall, we fought tooth and nail, wielding the oldest of weapons our species had even made to battle the beasts at our doors, our scientists learned to shield against, and even use the Source's energy for our own, and we built the bio domes, retreating into the safety of their artificial habitats until the skies were clear once more and we could survive our beloved earths surface once more. We returned to a changed world, the Source's Monsters didn't rest in this time either, growing hunting, fighting, forming an ecosystem of creatures so deadly that even now with our technology we struggle, and that is why we need you" He turns to look at you his face serious, his demeanor proud as the blue Source fire lights up along his saber "you are our future young one, and the reason we still fight for this changed world"

-How The World Fell, as told by Captain of Bio Dome 979's Source Strikers

an example of a nonmagical apocalypse on the level of the rifts, though i had to bring in an unknown energy (you know...kinda like...magic is an energy, and an alien meteorite)

[Nightmartree]

Only it wasn't a natural disaster; it was a supernatural disaster.

No, redirecting a planet-killer wouldn't open up gates to other dimensions, not without magic.

except in rifts universe magic IS natural, and quit simply put, for the planet killer to NOT open up the rifts in palladium universe one simple thing needs to happen, magic never exists, and we aren't having this conversation cause magic can't be as deadly as tech if it never existed and so every major tech disaster that would result in a massive outpouring of magic energy and so tear space time simple does far less damage and claims the title of best cause that other stuff is imaginary.

done you may now go play a non magical palladium game, the rest of use can continue to talk about how the nukes caused a natural disaster that cost a planet its happy existence

Edit: excuse me that's not quite right, all true but not quite right
right now we have "tech make big boom, cause magic to make planet bad"
so the best comparison on the magic side would be "Mages opens REALLY REALLY big rift right to a mechanoid homebase and can't close it" i believe that covers it right?

now a spark (mage making a rift) has hit the gasoline (a really big hostile tech baddie of doom)

Edit2: And also my original point was the earth would be destroyed and reduced to a wasteland with lots of destruction and loss of life, opening the rifts actually helped repopulate the earth even as it killed millions

[Killer Cyborg]

Only it wasn't a natural disaster; it was a supernatural disaster.

No, redirecting a planet-killer wouldn't open up gates to other dimensions, not without magic.

except in rifts universe magic IS natural,

Depends on which level you look at things.
The most common level to look at things in Rifts is the level in which "supernatural" is a thing, and Magic is definitely supernatural.
If you look from the level where "supernatural" is a misnomer, and magic is natural, and magic-using is technology, then this whole conversation is meaningless.

so the best comparison on the magic side would be "Mages opens REALLY REALLY big rift right to a mechanoid homebase and can't close it" i believe that covers it right?

now a spark (mage making a rift) has hit the gasoline (a really big hostile tech baddie of doom)

I wouldn't go with that.
The spark would be the magical rift.
The gasoline would be the ability of the Rift to bring dangerous elements from one place to another.
A pollutant is something that exists in levels dangerous to the environment it's introduced, after all. It's the introduction that's the most damaging part.

[Nightmartree]

Only it wasn't a natural disaster; it was a supernatural disaster.

No, redirecting a planet-killer wouldn't open up gates to other dimensions, not without magic.

except in rifts universe magic IS natural,

Depends on which level you look at things.
The most common level to look at things in Rifts is the level in which "supernatural" is a thing, and Magic is definitely supernatural.
If you look from the level where "supernatural" is a misnomer, and magic is natural, and magic-using is technology, then this whole conversation is meaningless.

so the best comparison on the magic side would be "Mages opens REALLY REALLY big rift right to a mechanoid homebase and can't close it" i believe that covers it right?

now a spark (mage making a rift) has hit the gasoline (a really big hostile tech baddie of doom)

I wouldn't go with that.
The spark would be the magical rift.
The gasoline would be the ability of the Rift to bring dangerous elements from one place to another.
A pollutant is something that exists in levels dangerous to the environment it's introduced, after all. It's the introduction that's the most damaging part.

If magic wasn't a natural part of the world how would a nuclear attack (and so SCIENCE!...gotta love science) be able to trigger a magical apocalypse? it may be less common in some places, but so is sunlight, or the warping of space due to gravity is rarely noticeable but around a black hole it has an obvious and very visible effect? that's how I view magic in palladium, its a force that can be harnessed by some people

if the rift opened to a dimension of happy peaceful beings there would be no gasoline to light, instead it opened to the worst tech threat Ive heard of and can run off the top of my head, its like saying "the spark is the nuclear missile, the gasoline is its ability to kill millions" and the pollutant if I understand your analogy correct would in this case be the excess magic energy created from those deaths

[Shark_Force]

I have stated that the CS overall is evil, but those people with a lust for power wouldn't be in a position to do anything without the fear of the masses driving them, so to me the CS isn't power hungry. The CS is fear driven which is why i said that it opens the avenue for good and selfish characters to more easily appear. And your right mostly (i believe it even says this somewhere in one of the books) most people are selfish, your rarely going to find a good or evil human, just one out for their own survival.

and ya you may be able to kill me with a knife or a shotgun, but i could struggle, people could fight back. We could resist...but what would you do if you were fighting a gun who your knife, shotgun, hand grenade, and missile launcher...don't even faze? what will you do when your neighbor vanishes one night and then staggers back into town, and when you go to help him, ask what happen and can you help, he suddenly grows fangs and tears out your throat? and as sucky as it is to say, the D-bee who isn't gonna tear you limb from limb or blast you with arcane arts or peel the flesh from your bones and wear it as a suit...those guys aren't a problem, but how do you know that? hell how do THEY know that? how do you trust this thing you've never met before not to be one of those things that will wear you as a suit?

In addition, the ones who are ripped by chance and surprise unprepared to rifts earth...chances are those aren't going to be the guys living to walk into town the next day. Chances are they have either been eaten, shot by someone not taking a chance or die because they cant survive this world (we can be rifted to realms that would kill us in an instant, why cant others).

The disparity between MDC and SDC, combined with the extra powers of psionics or magic make the supernatural something far beyond what a "normal" human could hope to defeat. Even if your in your armor and armed with MD weapons that fear doesn't just leave. Not when you've watched your friends peeled out of their armor and eaten alive. Not when you go home to visit your family and find THINGS that look like them living in their place. Rifts earth isn't a place for good intentions, the only reason we can debate such concepts as good and evil as PC's id because we are the few powerful enough to make those choices.

like i said originally, the alignment for a CS soldier is irrelevant when your on the other side of their war. Evil will torture and delight in your pain, good will hunt you to prevent more monsters harming the "innocent humans" they protect, and selfish just wants to live. but all three will blow you away for being something nothuman, something dangerous, and something they can't give a chance to, because whats at the other end of their gun barrels is the enemy, and they never know what that enemy is truly capable of in this madness that is...rifts earth.

the CS is driven by a lust for power. yes, there are a lot of people who are afraid (mostly because they're ignorant). they don't make the decisions. they're afraid of the things that the people in charge want them to be, to provide excuses for the people in charge to act on their lust for power without looking like that's what they're doing. those frightened people have no real power, they aren't driving anything.

as to fighting back against the guy with the knife, or shotgun, or the super-strong d-bee... how do you know the person next to you isn't going to sneak into your house and slit your throat while you're sleeping and you can't fight back? how do you know the guy with the shotgun isn't going to lie in the bushes outside your house and shoot you in the back while you come out to check the mail? there's plenty of ways for someone to kill you before you can react. especially if that someone has training in combat. even people that have bodyguards can be killed by snipers and such, and it can be danged near impossible to prevent... just in the past year, i believe there have been a couple of US politicians nearly killed that way, for example. we, as plain old ordinary humans, generally speaking have the capability to kill each other if we really wanted to, and the means to do so while preventing you from having any realistic chance of fighting back. the thing stopping isn't a lack of tools; we have access to knives, and clubs, and in some cases guns. if you have access to the internet, you can probably even find recipes for various kinds of explosives. we have access to plenty of poisons and other dangerous chemicals as well. the thing stopping us is a lack of desire to murder each other. there's no particular reason to assume everything else has that desire. irrational murder machines aren't very well adapted to survival, quite frankly.

as to only dangerous d-bees surviving, well, out of curiosity... if only incredibly threatening things can survive... what does that make you? what does that make all your human ancestors who survived the rifts? yeah, lots of people died. some didn't. and it wasn't only the people walking around in NEMA gear, or soldiers, or police... in fact, the NEMA soldiers all died in the end, and a lot of regular people survived. and reasonably normal people still do survive in the rifts wilderness, due to a mixture of skills, improvisation, luck, and other things.

again, i get *why* they do all those evil things. it is a very human sort of evil. i can relate. but it doesn't make it any less evil, and no, good people don't just agree to murder everything on the basis that some of them might have possibly been evil, perhaps, if they had bothered to check before deciding to just indiscriminately murder all the things.

[Nightmartree]

the CS is driven by a lust for power. yes, there are a lot of people who are afraid (mostly because they're ignorant). they don't make the decisions. they're afraid of the things that the people in charge want them to be, to provide excuses for the people in charge to act on their lust for power without looking like that's what they're doing. those frightened people have no real power, they aren't driving anything.

as to fighting back against the guy with the knife, or shotgun, or the super-strong d-bee... how do you know the person next to you isn't going to sneak into your house and slit your throat while you're sleeping and you can't fight back? how do you know the guy with the shotgun isn't going to lie in the bushes outside your house and shoot you in the back while you come out to check the mail? there's plenty of ways for someone to kill you before you can react. especially if that someone has training in combat. even people that have bodyguards can be killed by snipers and such, and it can be danged near impossible to prevent... just in the past year, i believe there have been a couple of US politicians nearly killed that way, for example. we, as plain old ordinary humans, generally speaking have the capability to kill each other if we really wanted to, and the means to do so while preventing you from having any realistic chance of fighting back. the thing stopping isn't a lack of tools; we have access to knives, and clubs, and in some cases guns. if you have access to the internet, you can probably even find recipes for various kinds of explosives. we have access to plenty of poisons and other dangerous chemicals as well. the thing stopping us is a lack of desire to murder each other. there's no particular reason to assume everything else has that desire. irrational murder machines aren't very well adapted to survival, quite frankly.

as to only dangerous d-bees surviving, well, out of curiosity... if only incredibly threatening things can survive... what does that make you? what does that make all your human ancestors who survived the rifts? yeah, lots of people died. some didn't. and it wasn't only the people walking around in NEMA gear, or soldiers, or police... in fact, the NEMA soldiers all died in the end, and a lot of regular people survived. and reasonably normal people still do survive in the rifts wilderness, due to a mixture of skills, improvisation, luck, and other things.

again, i get *why* they do all those evil things. it is a very human sort of evil. i can relate. but it doesn't make it any less evil, and no, good people don't just agree to murder everything on the basis that some of them might have possibly been evil, perhaps, if they had bothered to check before deciding to just indiscriminately murder all the things.

If there werent those frightened people there then there would be not point to the books stressing "the coalition isnt evil, really, they arent, its true, theyre not actually evil you can play a totally good guy in there!" Theyd get slapped with the evil card and shoved somewhere like all the other evils in the books

As for the reason im not worried about a guy waiting for me with a shotgun outside my door?its because i live in a very safe apartment, with several gates and doors and generally feel that its too mucb of a pain in the ass to ACTUALLY PANIC over the bad things that may happen to me. Also your neglecting one big part of this whole deal WE HAVE NO REASON but that alien predator LIVES FOR THAT EXACT PURPOSE...would you still feel safe walking outside knowing that the equivelant of a human sized tank exists for the express purpose of making you die as painfully as possible so it can savor the energy you give off as you die?there is NO human comparison to that. There is not guy with a gun, or madman with a bomb that will match up to a living breathing monster that you cant fight, that you cant kill, that you cant stop. And you cant tell me that the moment your given something that can kill it, that can stop it your not going to shoot it and anything you think might be it, until you feel safe again (and even today on earth there are people who would want to kill me for my religion, skin color or nationality, and if i knew one of them was possibly outside in a bush with a shotgun, or that he could walk through my locked door to slit my throat then my response os the same as the CS kill them all so i dont have to be afraid)

And you said it yourself, the people who managed to survive the rifts are either lucky or skilled enough or their ancestors were, that doesnt mean you are, that means the secons you make a mistake or your luck runs out you die, and these people though unprepared for the rifts opening lived in these places. Can you tell me that if you were shopping in the grocery store or going on a hike, visiting a monument or otherwise and were suddenly dropped into rifts youd survive?ill gladly say if i didnt die in the first 5 minutes i likely wouldnt make it past 30 cosidering that nexus points are a hotspot for trouble. The ones who do live are the ones who are either lucky, or have the oomph to make it in the rifts world...which automatically places them signifigantly above the normal human lvl
(And if you live around as an sdc being somewhere you need to have an mdc guardian somewhere or you just die the dirst time a monster shows up)

If i was a person in rifts my first goal is to avoid anything i dont know completely, and the moment it even blinks wrong empty a clip at it (to be fair this is also my response to bugs that get too close, and i dont even like guns) like i said, the only reason PCs and us gamers get to have moral dilemas is that we have the power or disasociation to do so.

I dont consider survival evil, betrayal yes, sacrificing others to some degree yes, inflicting harm just to hurt others yes but not fighting to survive and thats what i see when i look at the common man and CS grunt, maybe theyre deluded, maybe theyre wrong but they are no more evil than the animals who would eat you in the wilds

[Dunia]

@eliakon

With the book of doom and nuke comparison, you missed my point. Trying to tie these things to a vacuum is pointless and disingenuous because the availability of items that can be called plot devices is entirely up to campaign specifics. RPGs have a lot of "this is that, but never this", but games are made around campaigns.

A nuclear weapon on the scale we are discussing is essentially a "book of doom." It only exists in the context of the game being played. Even the nukes the CS has listed in the Navy book aren't the kind of weapons being imagined when people mention the power of technology to annihilate millions.

The problem is that they are NOT just "book of dooms that only exist in the context of the game being played"
They flat out exist.
We know this because the books, repeatedly, talk about multi-mile craters from a nuke, or entire cities destroyed etc.
That means that they do exist, and just because the CS only has smaller ones given stats does not make the larger ones vanish.

A good example of a mega weapon is the Mass Driver...
1d4x100,000 MDC to a 5 mile radius
1d6x1,000 MDC to the next ten miles
4d6x10 MD to the NEXT ten miles
Yes, that means someone 25 miles away from the point of impact will take more damage than a direct hit with a Boom Gun.

Compare this with... um... well there is one secret circle that has had one person in the last 7,000 years know the secret to it.

Does the Coalition States have these Mass Drivers or are they alien Design from space/galaxy setting?

[Dunia]

I find this discussion hillarious to be honest. How many times through the years hae this discussion/these discussions come up?

Yes, sitting in 2017 with the facit of the history of the world, rather safe in our dens/living rooms in countries like Sweden, USA, Ireland, Norway or Canada where the threat in our usual day is that we might be in some kind of accident and get hurt or maybe come down with a cold or flu. And wile sitting here we call agree that the Coalition States are evil, they are abhorrant in their views and should be stopped if possible in order to save lives.

The problem with this logic is that we can rest in our comfy chairs and claim that Coalition States are evil. But what is evil? Personally I think evil is very much a point of view. I know that not all here agree with me, but I consider Mr Trump as a very evil person, he step on others, use hateful rethoric when it suits him against those who disagree with him and although he wants to have the freedom of democracy and law when it suits him, but ignore it when it is beneficial to him. He wants to build up Guantanamo again and does not think that torture is wrong. Then comes all his advisors and followers who voted for him, those who cheer him on and chant his name. Are they evil?

Does this make USA an Evil nation, like the Coalition States?

In the spring (I think it was in April/May) the Swedish Democratic Party, who has its roots in the Neonazi hooligans had a record of 24% popularity. People who agree with them bombed mosques and houses dedicated to syrian refugees. People here has supported them with their no-refugees-in-Sweden policy. They silently support other political groups like Swedish Resistance and Nordic Resistant Force or Team Viking. Are the Swedish Democrats evil? Are its followers? If 25% of the Swedish people are they an evil people?

The problem with alignment as is written in many roleplaying games like D&D, Pathfinder or Rifts/Palladium Fantasy is that it is set in stone. I much more prefer the White Wolf way in Vampire the Masquerade with Humanity or in Werewolf where you can decide yourself.

Yes it is written in, as the OP mentioned, that Coalitin States are evil, in one book. I do not refute that at all. It is on black on white. But as others have posted in this thread they see themselves as fighting a war against a threat that will wipe out humanity if you cannot embrace it and become a magic user yourself. They do not have the luxury that we have that reads about it. They are the last true civilization (together with NG, MI and FQ and maybe TRiax/NGR (I do not have those books - only books of N america - so I am not sure)). They have extreme rules, where you can get huge fines (if you are lucky) if you are kind to the enemy or just killed as a traitor to humanity.

In WW2, my great-grandfather and grandfather was part of the resistance in France & Belgium. Nothing bad is said about them as they were the heroes of the people, helping downed allied pilots and soldiers getting home from occupied territory. I remember my Great-grandfather showing me wounds he recieved on the days following D-Day and the liberation of Belgium. I have been told stories my whole life about the occupation of Europe and how it was living under the german rule. But much more important I have been told that the resistance was ruthless and that I should not believe the war movies that I loved when I was younger. Assassinations, murder and torture as well as raping german women and those local girls who had sex or children with german soldiers/officers.

Was the resistance evil? Can we sit here on these forums and talk about how evil the European underground was? Should we label them as Miscreant or Abhorrant or whatelse evil alignment they might have? Or will we just look past their methods as they were figting the Nazi who were more evil than the resistance? And just say that They fought for their survival?

What differes the French/belgian/Dutch resistance and the Coalition States in this? Both see themselves as resisting against a greater threat that is occupying/invadinding their homeland. They are forced to fight an ugly fight to survive and save as many of their people as possible.

I am not apologizing for the Coalition States, if I would live in Rifts Earth, I would probably try to resist them, although peacefully, for a while at least... then I would either die, be captured or grow disillusioned and start to use iolence. I honestly cant say, but I wish I could help as many people against the terror of the Coalition states (if I was not a born CS citizen) by peaceful means. But that is the way I am.

If we continue looking at the Calition States and that they are led by an evil leader, they distrust/hate magics and monsters and d-bees and then look to the REpublicans, they are just like that. They do not like magics, d-bees or alien monsters and they are led by an evil leader. Also, they helped create the Coalition States. Are they not evil and to blame?

---
Flame away.

-Dunia

[ShadowLogan]

Yeah, but none of that would have happened if not for the proper circumstances, and magic can be used to slaughter masses as well, that there was tech involved just makes for a convenient argument, I think.

But hey, I'm on the side that says they're pretty equally dangerous.

I'm also of the assertion that Demons are irrecoverably evil, but humans aren't.

I agree it was the proper circumstances and such, but in this specific case both Magic and Technology converged to make it happen. We can't say one or the other is solely responsible for the Great Cataclysm. To say it was the result of one solely is ignoring the contribution of the other.

Tech was the spark.
Magic was the gasoline.
Which is more dangerous, sparks or gasoline?

Neither is more dangerous alone. A spark alone isn't going to do much (temporary light source), and gasoline needs something to set it off (it isn't going to spontaneously combust). You need both in order to get the danger, unless of course one decides to drink the gasoline (or breath its vapors like glue).

Does the Coalition States have these Mass Drivers or are they alien Design from space/galaxy setting?

Well a Mass Driver is basically a type of railgun, though the one specifically mentioned is from Phase World Setting IINM.

[Killer Cyborg]

Depends on which level you look at things.
The most common level to look at things in Rifts is the level in which "supernatural" is a thing, and Magic is definitely supernatural.
If you look from the level where "supernatural" is a misnomer, and magic is natural, and magic-using is technology, then this whole conversation is meaningless.

so the best comparison on the magic side would be "Mages opens REALLY REALLY big rift right to a mechanoid homebase and can't close it" i believe that covers it right?

now a spark (mage making a rift) has hit the gasoline (a really big hostile tech baddie of doom)

I wouldn't go with that.
The spark would be the magical rift.
The gasoline would be the ability of the Rift to bring dangerous elements from one place to another.
A pollutant is something that exists in levels dangerous to the environment it's introduced, after all. It's the introduction that's the most damaging part.

If magic wasn't a natural part of the world how would a nuclear attack (and so SCIENCE!...gotta love science) be able to trigger a magical apocalypse?

Depends on which level you look at things.
The most common level to look at things in Rifts is the level in which "supernatural" is a thing, and Magic is definitely supernatural.
If you look from the level where "supernatural" is a misnomer, and magic is natural, and magic-using is technology, then this whole conversation is meaningless.

[Killer Cyborg]

Tech was the spark.
Magic was the gasoline.
Which is more dangerous, sparks or gasoline?

Neither is more dangerous alone. A spark alone isn't going to do much (temporary light source), and gasoline needs something to set it off (it isn't going to spontaneously combust).

http://www.wheels.ca/news/handling-gasoline/
Place rags soaked with gasoline or oil inside a closed metal container, as these may spontaneously combust.

You need both in order to get the danger, unless of course one decides to drink the gasoline (or breath its vapors like glue).

[eliakon]

@eliakon

With the book of doom and nuke comparison, you missed my point. Trying to tie these things to a vacuum is pointless and disingenuous because the availability of items that can be called plot devices is entirely up to campaign specifics. RPGs have a lot of "this is that, but never this", but games are made around campaigns.

A nuclear weapon on the scale we are discussing is essentially a "book of doom." It only exists in the context of the game being played. Even the nukes the CS has listed in the Navy book aren't the kind of weapons being imagined when people mention the power of technology to annihilate millions.

The problem is that they are NOT just "book of dooms that only exist in the context of the game being played"
They flat out exist.
We know this because the books, repeatedly, talk about multi-mile craters from a nuke, or entire cities destroyed etc.
That means that they do exist, and just because the CS only has smaller ones given stats does not make the larger ones vanish.

A good example of a mega weapon is the Mass Driver...
1d4x100,000 MDC to a 5 mile radius
1d6x1,000 MDC to the next ten miles
4d6x10 MD to the NEXT ten miles
Yes, that means someone 25 miles away from the point of impact will take more damage than a direct hit with a Boom Gun.

Compare this with... um... well there is one secret circle that has had one person in the last 7,000 years know the secret to it.

Does the Coalition States have these Mass Drivers or are they alien Design from space/galaxy setting?

Phase World book... but they are just big rail guns so yes, the CS or Orbitals could build them if they wished.

The main point I was making was that this is a known fully stated out technological weapon with a blast radius of 25 miles.
There isn't any such magical weapon (though it IS true that in the magical thread I was able to get a similar scale effects... by combining three game lines, a few optional rules and level 10+ casters. Even then I had to have the group of wizards go in and physically cast the spell, no dropping it from orbit)

The other main point is that it helps demonstrate that Palladium DOES have WMDs that do more than 500' radius attacks. This is important because some people argue that nuclear weapons only exist in the 'baby nukes' that we see in the tactical missiles which have tiny blast radii and that the larger strategic weapons don't exist...
...even though the books constantly talk about things like giant radioactive craters, or how this city or that city was destroyed by a nuclear missile, or other effects of nuclear weapons that can not be caused by the little baby nukes we see statted out, and therefore imply the existence of larger ones.
If we can irrefutably demonstrate that there is no "damage or size cap on weapons" then we can also demonstrate that the claim that "nukes can't be big because there is a damage and size cap on weapons" is also false.

[Axelmania]

problem with the argument that the enemy is super powerful and could kill you in a moment... give me a 4 inch knife blade and i could kill you in a moment. i have many of them here in the house with me right now. and yet most people are not getting stabbed to death

The deterrent to you which comforts people is the risk of being injured in reprisal. Something MDC creatures at least would not worry about unless the human is armed withnw vibro knire. Plus 2D6/day default is superior to human healing.

MD punchers.cannot be disarmed as you can be disarmed of a knife. There is no comfort of an unarmed guest.

[Shark_Force]

If there werent those frightened people there then there would be not point to the books stressing "the coalition isnt evil, really, they arent, its true, theyre not actually evil you can play a totally good guy in there!" Theyd get slapped with the evil card and shoved somewhere like all the other evils in the books

As for the reason im not worried about a guy waiting for me with a shotgun outside my door?its because i live in a very safe apartment, with several gates and doors and generally feel that its too mucb of a pain in the ass to ACTUALLY PANIC over the bad things that may happen to me. Also your neglecting one big part of this whole deal WE HAVE NO REASON but that alien predator LIVES FOR THAT EXACT PURPOSE...would you still feel safe walking outside knowing that the equivelant of a human sized tank exists for the express purpose of making you die as painfully as possible so it can savor the energy you give off as you die?there is NO human comparison to that. There is not guy with a gun, or madman with a bomb that will match up to a living breathing monster that you cant fight, that you cant kill, that you cant stop. And you cant tell me that the moment your given something that can kill it, that can stop it your not going to shoot it and anything you think might be it, until you feel safe again (and even today on earth there are people who would want to kill me for my religion, skin color or nationality, and if i knew one of them was possibly outside in a bush with a shotgun, or that he could walk through my locked door to slit my throat then my response os the same as the CS kill them all so i dont have to be afraid)

And you said it yourself, the people who managed to survive the rifts are either lucky or skilled enough or their ancestors were, that doesnt mean you are, that means the secons you make a mistake or your luck runs out you die, and these people though unprepared for the rifts opening lived in these places. Can you tell me that if you were shopping in the grocery store or going on a hike, visiting a monument or otherwise and were suddenly dropped into rifts youd survive?ill gladly say if i didnt die in the first 5 minutes i likely wouldnt make it past 30 cosidering that nexus points are a hotspot for trouble. The ones who do live are the ones who are either lucky, or have the oomph to make it in the rifts world...which automatically places them signifigantly above the normal human lvl
(And if you live around as an sdc being somewhere you need to have an mdc guardian somewhere or you just die the dirst time a monster shows up)

If i was a person in rifts my first goal is to avoid anything i dont know completely, and the moment it even blinks wrong empty a clip at it (to be fair this is also my response to bugs that get too close, and i dont even like guns) like i said, the only reason PCs and us gamers get to have moral dilemas is that we have the power or disasociation to do so.

I dont consider survival evil, betrayal yes, sacrificing others to some degree yes, inflicting harm just to hurt others yes but not fighting to survive and thats what i see when i look at the common man and CS grunt, maybe theyre deluded, maybe theyre wrong but they are no more evil than the animals who would eat you in the wilds

the reason those people are frightened is because they're being conditioned to be frightened... by the power-hungry people at the top. there are a lot of places in rifts earth. most of them don't go on and on and on about how terrified the people are on a daily basis. because by definition, anywhere that people are living on rifts earth CANNOT POSSIBLY be so dangerous that you can't survive.

there are a tiny handful of alien predators. there are a lot more not-predators. again, if something shows up and is actively trying to kill stuff, then sure, shoot it. call it a monster, drop an artillery strike, or whatever else, because it's a problem. but in the majority of cases, things aren't alien predators, supernatural or otherwise (that's just a basic requirement, predators need to be more rare than prey, otherwise they would overhunt, run out of food, and die), and if you are comfortable murdering everything without making even a token effort to determine whether they're a problem or not, or even going beyond that and murdering them after they've spent years demonstrating that they're not a problem, that's evil. the great majority of the d-bees on rifts earth are no more of a problem than the guy with the shotgun or the person who has a bunch of steak knives in their house that they hypothetically could use to murder you. heck, most d-bees aren't even rocking supernatural strength or MDC hides. there is no policy of checking if someone is a threat, there is only a policy of murdering everything because sooner or later if you murder all the things, some of them will have been dangerous.

and there are plenty of ways to survive without just murdering everything. you go find a typical animal in the woods, and if you are not presenting yourself as an active threat to them, and they aren't hunting, they will probably ignore you. nothing in nature goes around murdering everything indiscriminately on the off-chance that it might be necessary for their survival. murdering everything is not a good way to stay alive. and realistically speaking, if someone is *really* determined to murder you, it probably isn't that hard for them to make it extremely hard for you to fight back to the point where practically speaking, you have no chance of doing that. you can, of course, run away, and that is one of the completely BS arguments you've just made: it is absolutely possible for you to run, or hide, or get to help before it can kill you, or any number of other things. this isn't a situation where there's a horrible monster, therefore you must walk up to it and let it kill you unless you try to murder everything on sight. those things may not guarantee your survival... but then again, neither does being a murderer.

and yes, it is certainly easier for those of us with an external perspective to recognize that those people are doing bad things. just as it would be easier for someone external to ourselves but with full information on us to look at our lives and point out things we're doing that we shouldn't be. that doesn't mean that it isn't evil for someone in the CS to condone or participate in indiscriminate murder, nor does it mean that pirating a movie or a video game or music isn't stealing. that's a major part of why it's easier to slip towards evil than it is to slip towards good, because most of the time without putting some direct effort into self-examination, you're not likely to be a genuinely good person for very long.

people keep acting like the fact that we on these forums have a better perspective on the situations in the game than the NPCs in the game somehow makes it not evil to do evil things. again, it is very understandable what the people in the CS are doing. i do it all the time. you do it all the time. the people we know do it all the time. sometimes we do it for each other (not so much the indisciminate murder part, hopefully). we tell ourselves lies to make us feel better about ourselves all the time, rather than face the harsh truth that we're not perfect and there are things we could do better. we're really good at coming up with all sorts of excuses why the things we do that we would condemn if they were done to us are acceptable. we still do it today, as individuals, as nations, as societies, as cliques, and pretty much any group we as humans form into. we tell ourselves that the people we hate deserve our hate, or that it's ok to steal from a big corporation because they can afford to lose the money, or that our personal contribution to something isn't big enough to make a difference so it's ok to just not do the things we know we should be doing, or whatever else.

and that doesn't change the fact that the bad things we do are bad things, whether that be in reality or in an imaginary game world.

[Nightmartree]

the reason those people are frightened is because they're being conditioned to be frightened... by the power-hungry people at the top. there are a lot of places in rifts earth. most of them don't go on and on and on about how terrified the people are on a daily basis. because by definition, anywhere that people are living on rifts earth CANNOT POSSIBLY be so dangerous that you can't survive.

there are a tiny handful of alien predators. there are a lot more not-predators. again, if something shows up and is actively trying to kill stuff, then sure, shoot it. call it a monster, drop an artillery strike, or whatever else, because it's a problem. but in the majority of cases, things aren't alien predators, supernatural or otherwise (that's just a basic requirement, predators need to be more rare than prey, otherwise they would overhunt, run out of food, and die), and if you are comfortable murdering everything without making even a token effort to determine whether they're a problem or not, or even going beyond that and murdering them after they've spent years demonstrating that they're not a problem, that's evil. the great majority of the d-bees on rifts earth are no more of a problem than the guy with the shotgun or the person who has a bunch of steak knives in their house that they hypothetically could use to murder you. heck, most d-bees aren't even rocking supernatural strength or MDC hides. there is no policy of checking if someone is a threat, there is only a policy of murdering everything because sooner or later if you murder all the things, some of them will have been dangerous.

and there are plenty of ways to survive without just murdering everything. you go find a typical animal in the woods, and if you are not presenting yourself as an active threat to them, and they aren't hunting, they will probably ignore you. nothing in nature goes around murdering everything indiscriminately on the off-chance that it might be necessary for their survival. murdering everything is not a good way to stay alive. and realistically speaking, if someone is *really* determined to murder you, it probably isn't that hard for them to make it extremely hard for you to fight back to the point where practically speaking, you have no chance of doing that. you can, of course, run away, and that is one of the completely BS arguments you've just made: it is absolutely possible for you to run, or hide, or get to help before it can kill you, or any number of other things. this isn't a situation where there's a horrible monster, therefore you must walk up to it and let it kill you unless you try to murder everything on sight. those things may not guarantee your survival... but then again, neither does being a murderer.

and yes, it is certainly easier for those of us with an external perspective to recognize that those people are doing bad things. just as it would be easier for someone external to ourselves but with full information on us to look at our lives and point out things we're doing that we shouldn't be. that doesn't mean that it isn't evil for someone in the CS to condone or participate in indiscriminate murder, nor does it mean that pirating a movie or a video game or music isn't stealing. that's a major part of why it's easier to slip towards evil than it is to slip towards good, because most of the time without putting some direct effort into self-examination, you're not likely to be a genuinely good person for very long.

people keep acting like the fact that we on these forums have a better perspective on the situations in the game than the NPCs in the game somehow makes it not evil to do evil things. again, it is very understandable what the people in the CS are doing. i do it all the time. you do it all the time. the people we know do it all the time. sometimes we do it for each other (not so much the indisciminate murder part, hopefully). we tell ourselves lies to make us feel better about ourselves all the time, rather than face the harsh truth that we're not perfect and there are things we could do better. we're really good at coming up with all sorts of excuses why the things we do that we would condemn if they were done to us are acceptable. we still do it today, as individuals, as nations, as societies, as cliques, and pretty much any group we as humans form into. we tell ourselves that the people we hate deserve our hate, or that it's ok to steal from a big corporation because they can afford to lose the money, or that our personal contribution to something isn't big enough to make a difference so it's ok to just not do the things we know we should be doing, or whatever else.

and that doesn't change the fact that the bad things we do are bad things, whether that be in reality or in an imaginary game world.

*sigh* you find far more things evil than i do, and is it hype if its true?without the evil cs over them these people would be cannon fodder, oh wait they are, its just theyd be used by some other power if it wasnt the cs. I dont find the people to be evil, and truthfully as a good aligned player in rifts seeking to always do the right thing should regret the horrible necessity of battling the CS. If you really want to get down to the depths of humanity we are all evil self serving vile things that exist by harming and consuming the things around us, every last one of us lives on the death of other beings, we survive on others misfortune, the only difference between us and the most vile of monsters in rifts is the amount of enjoyment we take in the suffering of those we consume to live.

The closest we get to good is the desire to care for and tend to others so that our race may continue. We are all selfish monsters, and im okay with that, i made my peace with it long ago. Alignment is and always will be a matter of perspective, what the dm and players see, if you see the CS as evil play them as such, if you dont, play them some other way. I'm done now *sigh*

[Shark_Force]

*sigh* you find far more things evil than i do, and is it hype if its true?without the evil cs over them these people would be cannon fodder, oh wait they are, its just theyd be used by some other power if it wasnt the cs. I dont find the people to be evil, and truthfully as a good aligned player in rifts seeking to always do the right thing should regret the horrible necessity of battling the CS. If you really want to get down to the depths of humanity we are all evil self serving vile things that exist by harming and consuming the things around us, every last one of us lives on the death of other beings, we survive on others misfortune, the only difference between us and the most vile of monsters in rifts is the amount of enjoyment we take in the suffering of those we consume to live.

The closest we get to good is the desire to care for and tend to others so that our race may continue. We are all selfish monsters, and im okay with that, i made my peace with it long ago. Alignment is and always will be a matter of perspective, what the dm and players see, if you see the CS as evil play them as such, if you dont, play them some other way. I'm done now *sigh*

oh sure. just like all the other people in rifts earth who aren't murdering everything in sight and are therefore unable to survive, the people in the CS must recognize the need to murder things in order to survive. [/sarcasm]

yeah, that BS argument doesn't stand up. there are people living in wooden shacks in the wilderness. emphasis on "living". as in, not dead. there are plenty of people living outside of the CS that manage to do so without murdering everything that isn't human. heck, plenty of them even hate d-bees too, they just don't believe in murdering them indiscriminately.

murder is evil. i'm not sure why that's a hard thing for you to grasp. not caring that you are murdering people is evil. again, not sure why you're finding this hard to grasp either. coming up with a crappy excuse for why you have to murder large numbers of people in order to make you feel better about being a murderer is, again, evil.

and, ultimately, yes, every one of us does some things that are, on some level, evil. not everything evil is equally evil; murder and rape are certainly worse than, say, calling someone mean names. and that is generally worse than, say, lying about how well you did on a test. every one of us has done (and likely will continue to do) some things that are, ultimately, evil on some level... though again, i'm very optimistic that there are plenty of other people around who have managed to avoid rape and murder. and some people are good enough that, while they are imperfect, they make a concerted effort to avoid other evil acts. they don't succeed 100% of the time, but they try. they know they can be better, and they want to be better.

but not in the CS. people there seem to be very comfortable with murdering everything they don't recognize on sight, and not bothering to ask themselves if what they're doing is the right thing. in your terms, their desire to tend for and care for others is extremely low, to the point where they're ok with murder so long as they think it increases their chance of survival. they don't really have any goodness to them. and yes, that is even true when you make some lame excuse that doesn't hold up to even casual inspection to justify your practice of murdering things. even among nations (which, frankly, tend to be more on the "evil" side of things than the "good" side of things throughout history), murder to the extent the CS practices isn't really seen as acceptable. you can talk about how things like the geneva convention and other international rules of war are a new thing, but the simple fact is, going thousands of years back, throughout recorded history, nations that just indiscriminately murder people of other nations have a bad reputation not shared by other nations that don't do so. even without formalized agreements and treaties, people were able to figure out that mass murder is not a good act. and again, i'm not sure why this is so hard for people to accept: murder is bad. you can't be a good person and be comfortable with a policy of murder. no matter what lies you tell yourself to make it sound reasonable.

[Blue_Lion]

I think the CS leadership is driven by greed/lust for power and use fear to control the masses to maintain and gain that power. So fear is the tool they use to control the masses but the driving force would be the greed/lust for power. Those that oppose the CS see the lust for power, while those controlled by the CS would see the fear not the driving factor.

[Axelmania]

the reason those people are frightened is because they're being conditioned to be frightened... by the power-hungry people at the top. there are a lot of places in rifts earth. most of them don't go on and on and on about how terrified the people are on a daily basis. because by definition, anywhere that people are living on rifts earth CANNOT POSSIBLY be so dangerous that you can't survive.

survival is always possible, just usually hard and unlikely. Dbees sheltered in the Burbs because it was actually dangerous, not propaganda.

there are a tiny handful of alien predators

Billions of Xiticix is tiny?

there are a lot more not-predators
..
in the majority of cases, things aren't alien predators, supernatural or otherwise

Source?

(that's just a basic requirement, predators need to be more rare than prey, otherwise they would overhunt, run out of food, and die)

Supernatural do not necessarily eat as often as earth predator.

Killing is not only form of predation. Ogres for example prey on human women but may not necessarily eat them.

Stealing food is also a form of predation. Slurm might outnumber humans and eat all their food if not for CS keeping them in check.

. the great majority of the d-bees on rifts earth are no more of a problem than the guy with the shotgun or the person who has a bunch of steak knives in their house that they hypothetically could use to murder you. heck, most d-bees aren't even rocking supernatural strength or MDC hides

source for all these?

there is only a policy of murdering everything

That is not CS policy. CS pushes aliens out of territory without needing to kill them sometimes.

[dreicunan]

Regarding people being conditioned to be frightened of magic by those at the top, Book of Magic page 16 makes it clear that the attitude of the people in the CS towards magic is NOT the result of propaganda, but due to the fact that "the vast majority of Coalition citizens have felt the painful scorch of magic first-hand. The Great Cataclysm was caused by the unwitting release of magic energy. Since that day forward, humans have suffered magic wielding monsters, gods, demons, dragons, and aliens as well as their fellow humans. Virtually every citizen of the Coalition States has lost a loved one or suffered in some way by magic, or knows someone who has. Ever since the Dark Ages, people have suffered at the hands of practitioners of magic -- some inhuman monsters, others mortal men and women who dared to call upon elemental forces and supernatural beings they could not control or who used the power of magic to become conquerors, invaders, criminals, avengers, and madmen."

Now, it goes on to highlight that none of this excuses the Coalitions policies of genocide, but it does make it clear that the dangers and threats of magic are current and widespread (the VAST majority have felt the painful scorch of magic firsthand), and that the attitude of the common Coalition citizen is based on experience, not propaganda.

[Nightmartree]

(that's just a basic requirement, predators need to be more rare than prey, otherwise they would overhunt, run out of food, and die)

Supernatural do not necessarily eat as often as earth predator.

Killing is not only form of predation. Ogres for example prey on human women but may not necessarily eat them.

Stealing food is also a form of predation. Slurm might outnumber humans and eat all their food if not for CS keeping them in check.

The handy thing about rifts setting is you have a constant influx of both predators and prey of various levels of power. there is no need for something to worry about the amount of prey because more will always come. and prey never gets a respite from being hunted because there is always another predator.

[eliakon]

Regarding people being conditioned to be frightened of magic by those at the top, Book of Magic page 16 makes it clear that the attitude of the people in the CS towards magic is NOT the result of propaganda, but due to the fact that "the vast majority of Coalition citizens have felt the painful scorch of magic first-hand. The Great Cataclysm was caused by the unwitting release of magic energy. Since that day forward, humans have suffered magic wielding monsters, gods, demons, dragons, and aliens as well as their fellow humans. Virtually every citizen of the Coalition States has lost a loved one or suffered in some way by magic, or knows someone who has. Ever since the Dark Ages, people have suffered at the hands of practitioners of magic -- some inhuman monsters, others mortal men and women who dared to call upon elemental forces and supernatural beings they could not control or who used the power of magic to become conquerors, invaders, criminals, avengers, and madmen."

Now, it goes on to highlight that none of this excuses the Coalitions policies of genocide, but it does make it clear that the dangers and threats of magic are current and widespread (the VAST majority have felt the painful scorch of magic firsthand), and that the attitude of the common Coalition citizen is based on experience, not propaganda.

Being harmed by something, or being taught by your government that something was what harmed you does not justify Genocide.
Put another way... claiming that "Everyone has been hurt by magic because the Great Cataclysm happened" is like saying that every American was personally hurt by taxes on tea because there was a revolutionary war.

It is sophistry to try and claim that something that happened three hundred years before, and was a result of a natural force is the same as a current person that is trained to use that force in a limited way.

And when they have that large a percentage of their population in the military, and actively hunt down and exterminate those who are born differently...
...yeah they have felt the sting... when they brought it upon themselves.
Getting hurt by the fall out of a massive war of aggression does not justify squat.
And since the statement comes AFTER the Tolkeen war, where the vast majority of the population WOULD have been affected, either directly or know someone affected then it doesn't prove much other than "The CS went to war against magic and took a lot of casualties"

The whole "become invaders, conqureres blah blah blah is 100% propaganda... since the vast, vast majority of CS people will never have experienced any of those and are just going off what they are told/see on TV

[dreicunan]

Regarding people being conditioned to be frightened of magic by those at the top, Book of Magic page 16 makes it clear that the attitude of the people in the CS towards magic is NOT the result of propaganda, but due to the fact that "the vast majority of Coalition citizens have felt the painful scorch of magic first-hand. The Great Cataclysm was caused by the unwitting release of magic energy. Since that day forward, humans have suffered magic wielding monsters, gods, demons, dragons, and aliens as well as their fellow humans. Virtually every citizen of the Coalition States has lost a loved one or suffered in some way by magic, or knows someone who has. Ever since the Dark Ages, people have suffered at the hands of practitioners of magic -- some inhuman monsters, others mortal men and women who dared to call upon elemental forces and supernatural beings they could not control or who used the power of magic to become conquerors, invaders, criminals, avengers, and madmen."

Now, it goes on to highlight that none of this excuses the Coalitions policies of genocide, but it does make it clear that the dangers and threats of magic are current and widespread (the VAST majority have felt the painful scorch of magic firsthand), and that the attitude of the common Coalition citizen is based on experience, not propaganda.

Being harmed by something, or being taught by your government that something was what harmed you does not justify Genocide.
Put another way... claiming that "Everyone has been hurt by magic because the Great Cataclysm happened" is like saying that every American was personally hurt by taxes on tea because there was a revolutionary war.

It is sophistry to try and claim that something that happened three hundred years before, and was a result of a natural force is the same as a current person that is trained to use that force in a limited way.

And when they have that large a percentage of their population in the military, and actively hunt down and exterminate those who are born differently...
...yeah they have felt the sting... when they brought it upon themselves.
Getting hurt by the fall out of a massive war of aggression does not justify squat.
And since the statement comes AFTER the Tolkeen war, where the vast majority of the population WOULD have been affected, either directly or know someone affected then it doesn't prove much other than "The CS went to war against magic and took a lot of casualties"

The whole "become invaders, conqureres blah blah blah is 100% propaganda... since the vast, vast majority of CS people will never have experienced any of those and are just going off what they are told/see on TV

Book of Magic page 16 is a reprint of Coalition Wars 1: Sedition page 13, so I'm afraid that the statement is about how things stood before the war with Tolkeen. I didn't argue that it justified the stance, and even noted that the article goes on to condemn it. However, that bit of text destroys that line that you advanced claiming that this is about the Great Cataclysm. It makes it clear SINCE the Great Cataclysm, some practitioners of magic have CONTINUED to cause problems for others, to the point that the VAST MAJORITY of Coalition Citizens have felt the painful scorch of magic FIRST-HAND. The way that the paragraph is written certainly does not lend itself to reading that the suffering is because all those practitioners of magic that inflicted it were just minding their own business until the Coalition came after them.

I'm not arguing that the Coalition States is in the right, but I cited this text because it undermines two arguments that were being advanced in the thread (that the citizens fear of magic was the result of propaganda and that there was no present reason for their views). According to Kevin S, some practitioners of magic have been engaged in activities that have resulted in the vast majority of Coalition States citizens having felt the painful scorch of magic first-hand. You may not like it, but it's canon.

[Axelmania]

The damage from magic and monsters preceded CS becoming expansionist or having Prosekian propaganda.

Reminder that CS actually had some mages and 6% non humans prior to FoM loosing winged demons on burbs then invading.

Organized mass invasion is what sent them over the edge but there have always been dangerous roving predators.

Again, this is why dbees/mages sheltered in burbs so long even as policies against them worsened. Why.else would they.be there? To prey on humans?

[Dunia]

I think the CS leadership is driven by greed/lust for power and use fear to control the masses to maintain and gain that power. So fear is the tool they use to control the masses but the driving force would be the greed/lust for power. Those that oppose the CS see the lust for power, while those controlled by the CS would see the fear not the driving factor.

As it says in HoH that Prosek actually believes in what he says, I don't think that he is driven by greed or powerlust. maybe it was like that in the beginning, but nowdays (Pa 110) He actually believes that he is the only one who can lead his people to save humanity.

His son and generals are more of the group that wants the power, prestigue and wealth that comes with it. But I believe that karl has covinced himself that he must succeed and become to savior of Earth or fail and doom all humans to a fate worse than death.

[Axelmania]

You can be driven by greed and power and still feel love for your people and want to protect them. No need for a false dichotomy. Even a Diabolic can love.

[Dunia]

Sure, but as KS says in HoH: Nothing is black & White in Rifts. You guys seem to put all evil flags on Prosek and Coalition all the time. I just try to see beyond the reason why he acts like and says the things he does.

Evil for evil's sake is not that interesting in my eyes and I am happy that KS wrote that. But hey it is your game, play them as evil and powerhungry /lust for greed as you like. What do I care. I just do not believe the fact that they are just out for power.

Leaving this discussion now as it is hard to discuss when people have already set their opinions in stoone or titanium

[eliakon]

Sure, but as KS says in HoH: Nothing is black & White in Rifts. You guys seem to put all evil flags on Prosek and Coalition all the time. I just try to see beyond the reason why he acts like and says the things he does.

Evil for evil's sake is not that interesting in my eyes and I am happy that KS wrote that. But hey it is your game, play them as evil and powerhungry /lust for greed as you like. What do I care. I just do not believe the fact that they are just out for power.

Leaving this discussion now as it is hard to discuss when people have already set their opinions in stoone or titanium

Claiming that nothing is black and white is fine...
...but only if you are willing to claim that there is no good or evil.
Because you can't make the claim that there is moral relativism in a world where there IS specific, absolute, detectable good and evil.
It just doesn't work.
Some of us are calling the spade a spade and addressing the elephant in the room.
That elephant is that if someone performs the actions on the checklist for evil alignment...
...then they are evil.
There is no "but they think they are a good person" exception in the book.
A LOT of people want to pretend that the alignments don't exist and that the people in the CS get to slide by and don't have to make the decision on if they are good or evil.
That isn't how it works. You have three options. You can be good, you can be selfish, you can be evil. No other options, no "none of the above"
And the choice is not based on what you think you are doing. The book is explicitly clear on what the decision tree for selecting alignments is.
Thus.... if you do evil actions You Are Evil.
period
Dot
End of story
Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars
Flat out evil.

[Axelmania]

Please explain how an "evil action" is defined?

Kev revealed Karl is Diabolic in SB1, still is in WB11. CJ ranked CS on par with kreeghor/Splugorth as miscreant/aberrant equivalents, though not entirely sure the authoritynthis carries compared to KS.

Regardless of what leader / society are, we must recall the majority if civikians and soldiers were explicitly not evil in WB11.

They could have improved or deteriorated since then. Do we know?

[eliakon]

Please explain how an "evil action" is defined?

Kev revealed Karl is Diabolic in SB1, still is in WB11. CJ ranked CS on par with kreeghor/Splugorth as miscreant/aberrant equivalents, though not entirely sure the authoritynthis carries compared to KS.

Regardless of what leader / society are, we must recall the majority if civikians and soldiers were explicitly not evil in WB11.

They could have improved or deteriorated since then. Do we know?

The majority of the population could me Selfish (which is not evil) AND the majority of the military could ALSO be Evil.
After all, the Military is NOT the majority of the population.
The two are NOT mutually exclusive.

[Shark_Force]

Please explain how an "evil action" is defined?

Kev revealed Karl is Diabolic in SB1, still is in WB11. CJ ranked CS on par with kreeghor/Splugorth as miscreant/aberrant equivalents, though not entirely sure the authoritynthis carries compared to KS.

Regardless of what leader / society are, we must recall the majority if civikians and soldiers were explicitly not evil in WB11.

They could have improved or deteriorated since then. Do we know?

The majority of the population could me Selfish (which is not evil) AND the majority of the military could ALSO be Evil.
After all, the Military is NOT the majority of the population.
The two are NOT mutually exclusive.

honestly, given the numbers we've been told for their military... i'm not entirely certain that their military isn't most of their population.

[Blue_Lion]

Looking at the factors(that i could find off hand) that caused the cataclysm magic is not on the list.
There was a natural planetary/celestial alignment(that raised susceptibility to magic influence but not magic.)
An experiment with dimensional properties in Japan. (tech)
Use of WMD.(Tech)

Now the tech did release the magical energy when it killed people but magic did nothing to start it. Nature provided the fuel, tech the spark and magic was the flame.

[Dunia]

Sure, but as KS says in HoH: Nothing is black & White in Rifts. You guys seem to put all evil flags on Prosek and Coalition all the time. I just try to see beyond the reason why he acts like and says the things he does.

Evil for evil's sake is not that interesting in my eyes and I am happy that KS wrote that. But hey it is your game, play them as evil and powerhungry /lust for greed as you like. What do I care. I just do not believe the fact that they are just out for power.

Leaving this discussion now as it is hard to discuss when people have already set their opinions in stoone or titanium

Claiming that nothing is black and white is fine...
...but only if you are willing to claim that there is no good or evil.
Because you can't make the claim that there is moral relativism in a world where there IS specific, absolute, detectable good and evil.
It just doesn't work.
Some of us are calling the spade a spade and addressing the elephant in the room.
That elephant is that if someone performs the actions on the checklist for evil alignment...
...then they are evil.
There is no "but they think they are a good person" exception in the book.
A LOT of people want to pretend that the alignments don't exist and that the people in the CS get to slide by and don't have to make the decision on if they are good or evil.
That isn't how it works. You have three options. You can be good, you can be selfish, you can be evil. No other options, no "none of the above"
And the choice is not based on what you think you are doing. The book is explicitly clear on what the decision tree for selecting alignments is.
Thus.... if you do evil actions You Are Evil.
period
Dot
End of story
Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars
Flat out evil.

I do not claim that "nothing is black or white in Rifts" I just quote Kevin Siembieda from what he wrote in Heroes of Humanity. I do not have the book here as I am at work. But I think it was n page 4-7. the creartor and author of the game stated that, I just repeat what he said.
Nuff said

[HWalsh]

Sure, but as KS says in HoH: Nothing is black & White in Rifts. You guys seem to put all evil flags on Prosek and Coalition all the time. I just try to see beyond the reason why he acts like and says the things he does.

Evil for evil's sake is not that interesting in my eyes and I am happy that KS wrote that. But hey it is your game, play them as evil and powerhungry /lust for greed as you like. What do I care. I just do not believe the fact that they are just out for power.

Leaving this discussion now as it is hard to discuss when people have already set their opinions in stoone or titanium

Claiming that nothing is black and white is fine...
...but only if you are willing to claim that there is no good or evil.
Because you can't make the claim that there is moral relativism in a world where there IS specific, absolute, detectable good and evil.
It just doesn't work.
Some of us are calling the spade a spade and addressing the elephant in the room.
That elephant is that if someone performs the actions on the checklist for evil alignment...
...then they are evil.
There is no "but they think they are a good person" exception in the book.
A LOT of people want to pretend that the alignments don't exist and that the people in the CS get to slide by and don't have to make the decision on if they are good or evil.
That isn't how it works. You have three options. You can be good, you can be selfish, you can be evil. No other options, no "none of the above"
And the choice is not based on what you think you are doing. The book is explicitly clear on what the decision tree for selecting alignments is.
Thus.... if you do evil actions You Are Evil.
period
Dot
End of story
Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars
Flat out evil.

I do not claim that "nothing is black or white in Rifts" I just quote Kevin Siembieda from what he wrote in Heroes of Humanity. I do not have the book here as I am at work. But I think it was n page 4-7. the creartor and author of the game stated that, I just repeat what he said.
Nuff said

Kevin was obviously waxing poetic rather than speaking legitimate as he has also written many thing he's stated were pure evil.

[dreicunan]

@HWalsh: Poetry is a legitimate form of expression. Did you mean "literally"?

[Alrik Vas]

Kevin was obviously waxing poetic rather than speaking legitimate as he has also written many thing he's stated were pure evil.

He does wax the poetic from time to time, and he may have been there, but that doesn't really matter. When you detect evil in Rifts say by the Psionic ability, which gives you a gauge and is one of the cornerstones of the argument that EvilIsEvilPeriodDotEndofStory, you're spending power to do it, you're bringing focus to a supernatural bend to detect the alignment of another creature. It doesn't tell you their intentions, it doesn't tell you their disposition. It gives you their alignment.

When you don't spend ISP and you get a reading anyway, that's because the detection is of a supernatural nature itself. A being of evil, not something that is merely wicked in alignment, but something that full turn represents the idea of evil, arguably beyond what any mortal creature, human or not, is truly capable of being unless being influenced from outside forces.

So sure. In palladium there is evil, there is good, it's detectable, it's even to a point measurable. The supernatural forces of good and evil are what they are and don't change unless by magic (soultwist spell, for example, i suppose). Mortal creatures on the other hand are much more malleable and will change if mundane circumstances and experiences push them enough one way or the other.

That's why you can still see grey and be correct in Rifts. The black and white are supernatural effects/forces that stand in opposition, not truly alignments.

[Library Ogre]

Please explain how an "evil action" is defined?

I'll take a stab at it. *cracks nuckles*

Range 1: Evil but not necessarily nasty about it
1. Not necessarily keep his word to anyone.
2. Lie and cheat anyone; good or evil.
3. Most definitely attack an unarmed foe (those are the best kind).
4. Use or harm an innocent.
5. Use torture for extracting information and pleasure.
6. May kill for sheer pleasure.
7. Feels no compulsion to help without some sort of tangible reward.
8. Work with others if it will help him attain his personal goal.
9. Kill an unarmed foe as readily as he would a potential threat or competitor.
10. Has no deference to laws or authority, but will work within the law if he must.
11. Will betray a friend if it serves his needs.

Range 2: Evil but tries to be honorable
1. Always keep his word of honor (he is honorable).
2. Lie to and cheat those not worthy of his respect.
3. May or may not kill an unarmed foe.
4. Not kill (may harm, kidnap) an innocent, particularly a child.
5. Never kills for pleasure.
6. Not resort to inhumane treatment of prisoners, but torture, although distasteful, is a necessary means of extracting information.
7. Never torture for pleasure.
8. May or may not help someone in need.
9. Work with others to attain his goals.
10. Respect honor and self-discipline.
11. Never betray a friend.

Range 3: Evil ********
1. Rarely keep his word (and has no honor).
2. Lie to and cheat anyone.
3. Most certainly attack and kill an unarmed foe.
4. Use, hurt and kill an innocent without a second thought or for pleasure.
5. Use torture for pleasure and information.
6. Kill for sheer pleasure.
7. Likely to help someone only to kill or rob him.
8. Not work well within a group (consistently disregarding orders to do as he pleases).
9. Despise honor, authority, and self-discipline.
10. Associate mostly, with other evil alignments.
11. Betray friends (after all, you can always find friends).

Based on this completely made up list that obviously comes from nowhere important, I think the ideal Coalition soldier is mostly in the second range... "Evil but tries to be honorable." Obviously, the "shoot little D-Bee kids in the head" part conflicts with their point 4, but follows their point 1, as they are following orders. However, looking at this list, you see a certain commonality of actions that can be defined as evil... other people's pain and death, even those who are not involved, is an acceptable consequence of one's own actions, and may be a favored outcome. The second range points to be people who are reluctant to do it, not out of empathy, but out of a sense that they shouldn't do these things.

[Killer Cyborg]

Based on this completely made up list that obviously comes from nowhere important, I think the ideal Coalition soldier is mostly in the second range... "Evil but tries to be honorable." Obviously, the "shoot little D-Bee kids in the head" part conflicts with their point 4, but follows their point 1, as they are following orders.

That's the thing that this always comes back to: #4 hinges on the word "innocent," and that always comes back to the question of whether the word refers to an objective perspective or a personal perspective.
Basically, does it mean "never kills a person that the character reasonably believes is innocent" or does it mean "never kills a person that is objectively innocent."

If the latter, then we end up with a setting in which a person determined--with every fiber of his/her/its being--to behave 100% correctly in a moral sense at all times could be tricked into killing an innocent person, and would then become Evil.
That's possible, but most people find that result unpalatable, and have trouble believing that it's the result intended.

[Dunia]

Sure, but as KS says in HoH: Nothing is black & White in Rifts. You guys seem to put all evil flags on Prosek and Coalition all the time. I just try to see beyond the reason why he acts like and says the things he does.

Evil for evil's sake is not that interesting in my eyes and I am happy that KS wrote that. But hey it is your game, play them as evil and powerhungry /lust for greed as you like. What do I care. I just do not believe the fact that they are just out for power.

Leaving this discussion now as it is hard to discuss when people have already set their opinions in stoone or titanium

Claiming that nothing is black and white is fine...
...but only if you are willing to claim that there is no good or evil.
Because you can't make the claim that there is moral relativism in a world where there IS specific, absolute, detectable good and evil.
It just doesn't work.
Some of us are calling the spade a spade and addressing the elephant in the room.
That elephant is that if someone performs the actions on the checklist for evil alignment...
...then they are evil.
There is no "but they think they are a good person" exception in the book.
A LOT of people want to pretend that the alignments don't exist and that the people in the CS get to slide by and don't have to make the decision on if they are good or evil.
That isn't how it works. You have three options. You can be good, you can be selfish, you can be evil. No other options, no "none of the above"
And the choice is not based on what you think you are doing. The book is explicitly clear on what the decision tree for selecting alignments is.
Thus.... if you do evil actions You Are Evil.
period
Dot
End of story
Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars
Flat out evil.

I do not claim that "nothing is black or white in Rifts" I just quote Kevin Siembieda from what he wrote in Heroes of Humanity. I do not have the book here as I am at work. But I think it was n page 4-7. the creartor and author of the game stated that, I just repeat what he said.
Nuff said

Kevin was obviously waxing poetic rather than speaking legitimate as he has also written many thing he's stated were pure evil.

Intresting how some people state that when kevin writes that they are evil they say "This is proof! Black on white!!! See you cant argue with me!"
When he writes something that states otherwise they say "Kevin was obviously waxing poetic rather than speaking legitimate as he has also written many thing he's stated were pure evil."

You want Prosek and CS to be a hive of horribleness and evilness. Fine! But that is your ifts game. I do not say that you play it the wrong way. Maybe KS wants something else nowdays and as it is usually the latest dated source that is seen as an errata, so with HOH being newer than Galaxy book and other books, I will see it as a revision of Kevins statement and accept that nothing is Black or white with Coalition.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Rifts Sourcebook pg17

The Coalition
Good or Evil?
Time line: P.A. 102
The following data and clarifications are meant to supplement
the information presented in the Rifts role-playing game. There seems to be some confusion about how there can be such a thing as a villain that is not a simple, maniacal, evil monster.
Like the real world, situations are seldom black and white; yes or no. The Coalition falls into a void of moral and philosophic grey tones.
In any society you have a collection of people. Within that collection there are good, selfish, and evil individuals. In addition there are the misguided and manipulated. There are the righteous and the humble, the well meaning and the miscreant. You have the caring family man and the thief and murderer living in the same environment. All this is true of the Coalition States.