GenCon Tournaments

[Morgan Vening]

Well, the GenCon Event List is live, and we can see what's available for competitive play. I told Forar to post it up (couldn't do it from work), but he's being a temperamental lazy person in a hat, and didn't want to.

A search for Robotech lists 16 events.

Of those, it breaks down as follows.
7 RPG events (so, not what we're talking about here)
7 non-tourney, no/little experience, material provided, essentially extended demo events (important, but again, not the topic of discussion)
2 events listed as a tournament.

Both events seem to be separate, but otherwise identical, just being run on different days (Friday 1pm, Saturday 1pm).

Here's the direct links, but the general info is as follows.

Description - Gen Con's 1st tournament! Bring your assembled 200 point force to the table to throw down against UEDF & Zentraedi from all across the galaxy! Prizes for the top 3 players & best paint!
Players - 4 to 12.
Duration - 5hrs.

So, firstly glad they're keeping the numbers manageable. Sure, it's less than I'd want at the first official tournament in over two years (May 2015 Open House was the last I saw reported), it's definitely not something you'ld want to overestimate too heavily on. A small tourney is better for perspective than a big tourney that only gets a handful of players. And as neither prior event (Adepticon 2015 or the 2015 POH) was more than this (I believe 9 and 11 respectively?), I think this is a reasonable number that they can hope to build on.

Second, I'm kind of disappointed that the "standard" game size (300pts) is being undercut. Again, I can understand it, as the Zentradi options are incredibly limited for army build, due to the absence of Wave 2, but it does mean that getting more than 2 formations a side really pushes things. Making the whole alternative action thing more IGOUGO. But again, I can understant it, for reasons.

Third, and this is where clarity needs to exist. Each tourney is listed as 5 hours long. To get a singular winner (assuming ties are impossible) if the event has full participation, will require 4 rounds. Meaning everything from orientation to deployments to packing up all have to be subsumed into the 1hr 15m timeframe. I haven't played yet, so an honest question, will that be sufficient? According to the POH, they had 250pts in originally 2hrs, but reduced it to 1 1/2 before the event, though I don't recall hearing in a post-review if that was sufficient. Of course, if my next interpretation is wrong, there'll be plenty of time.

Some other points needing clarification, is whether the two events are fully independent or not. My interpretation is that they are, and each is fully independent. HOWEVER, both list in the description as being "GenCon's 1st tournament". Now, it doesn't matter which interpretation is true, as long as it's clear. People showing up expecting a two day tournament might be miffed if it's two single day ones. And people expecting it to be a one day tourney might get miffed that only playing that one day will probably remove any chance of prizes. I'm EXPECTING it to be two separate tournaments, but clarification would be good, even if the time constraint I mentioned above then becomes an issue.

Final point is another of clarification, and speaks to the issue in my second point, above. And that is the matter of proxies. Which is almost assuredly going to annoy someone. Palladium have released several items as character model Exclusives* (MPA, FPA, SValk) that could theoretically be purchased in numbers to make relevant squads. But as the pricing is significant, you get into the old CCG argument of Mr Suitcase. Which is the concept that a player with more money or access than another player has a significant advantage. So if you allow proxies, you annoy the people who aren't able to afford $66+ per squad, or in the case of FPA, are no longer available. But if you don't, you annoy the people who did. There's also the question of where you draw the line if you do. Can you provide alternate appropriately sized miniatures to allow Light/Heavy Infantry so you can field the Breetai? What about people who custom build their own models? Or use accurate samples from either the pre-existing models or Battletech as long as they're appropriately based? There's no option that isn't going to annoy a small part of your tournament fanbase, but a line does need to be drawn, and drawn early, so as for people to make an informed decision.

* The term Exclusive doesn't really have any meaning anymore, but it's still the term PB use.

But otherwise, I think it's actually a reasonable start for the tournament organizer in terms of keeping everything manageable. Hope he gets the numbers he needs to make it a fun time for everyone.

[Nazdrek]

2 events listed as a tournament.

I can only speak to these two events, I know nothing about anything else being ran at Gencon.

Both events seem to be separate, but otherwise identical, just being run on different days (Friday 1pm, Saturday 1pm).
The only difference is the point size and dates as far as players should be concerned.

Here's the direct links, but the general info is as follows.

Description - Gen Con's 1st tournament! Bring your assembled 200 point force to the table to throw down against UEDF & Zentraedi from all across the galaxy! Prizes for the top 3 players & best paint!
Players - 4 to 12.
Duration - 5hrs.

So, firstly glad they're keeping the numbers manageable. Sure, it's less than I'd want at the first official tournament in over two years (May 2015 Open House was the last I saw reported), it's definitely not something you'ld want to overestimate too heavily on. A small tourney is better for perspective than a big tourney that only gets a handful of players. And as neither prior event (Adepticon 2015 or the 2015 POH) was more than this (I believe 9 and 11 respectively?), I think this is a reasonable number that they can hope to build on.

I wanted to keep the event small because time is of the essence. People do not want to spend all day playing one game. If there is enough interest in this event I will run more at Adepticon and Gencon in 2018.


Second, I'm kind of disappointed that the "standard" game size (300pts) is being undercut. Again, I can understand it, as the Zentradi options are incredibly limited for army build, due to the absence of Wave 2, but it does mean that getting more than 2 formations a side really pushes things. Making the whole alternative action thing more IGOUGO. But again, I can understant it, for reasons.

I wanted the initial game to be for players that may not have enough assembled or want to play the larger scale game. The first day is kinda of a learning day. Day two's event is slotted as the main event. There will be prizes for 1st, 2nd and 3rd, however if we have a full event there will be an additional prize that is pretty amazing.


Third, and this is where clarity needs to exist. Each tourney is listed as 5 hours long. To get a singular winner (assuming ties are impossible) if the event has full participation, will require 4 rounds. Meaning everything from orientation to deployments to packing up all have to be subsumed into the 1hr 15m timeframe. I haven't played yet, so an honest question, will that be sufficient? According to the POH, they had 250pts in originally 2hrs, but reduced it to 1 1/2 before the event, though I don't recall hearing in a post-review if that was sufficient. Of course, if my next interpretation is wrong, there'll be plenty of time.

I feel that the time frame allotted will be sufficient. Again this is where day one will be critical in the planning of day two. Players will learn their armies a bit better and have a good idea on how they want to play them. We will play until there is an undefeated player. So if we do not have to go the full time or 4 rounds so be it.


Some other points needing clarification, is whether the two events are fully independent or not. My interpretation is that they are, and each is fully independent. HOWEVER, both list in the description as being "GenCon's 1st tournament". Now, it doesn't matter which interpretation is true, as long as it's clear. People showing up expecting a two day tournament might be miffed if it's two single day ones. And people expecting it to be a one day tourney might get miffed that only playing that one day will probably remove any chance of prizes. I'm EXPECTING it to be two separate tournaments, but clarification would be good, even if the time constraint I mentioned above then becomes an issue.

The biggest issue with this event is that it had to be submitted to be submitted. I have never had to go through so many hoops to run something. Things were just copied and pasted. There are two separate events on two separate days that have two separate point values and two separate prize pools. You do not have to play in the day one event to play on day two.


Final point is another of clarification, and speaks to the issue in my second point, above. And that is the matter of proxies. Which is almost assuredly going to annoy someone. Palladium have released several items as character model Exclusives* (MPA, FPA, SValk) that could theoretically be purchased in numbers to make relevant squads. But as the pricing is significant, you get into the old CCG argument of Mr Suitcase. Which is the concept that a player with more money or access than another player has a significant advantage. So if you allow proxies, you annoy the people who aren't able to afford $66+ per squad, or in the case of FPA, are no longer available. But if you don't, you annoy the people who did. There's also the question of where you draw the line if you do. Can you provide alternate appropriately sized miniatures to allow Light/Heavy Infantry so you can field the Breetai? What about people who custom build their own models? Or use accurate samples from either the pre-existing models or Battletech as long as they're appropriately based? There's no option that isn't going to annoy a small part of your tournament fanbase, but a line does need to be drawn, and drawn early, so as for people to make an informed decision.


I will not allow proxies. All models MUST represent what they are. The only models allowed in the event are models that are currently in production by Palladium Books and available to the public. I understand how this may upset some people however I want the playing field to be even for all those wishing to attend.

[Nazdrek]

This is the event packet that we will base the tournaments off of. It was made by another community member, Erich Schoenholtz. I appreciate that he and his group play tested it.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/b83hh3bxy18b3lw/AACJwV2mtX1arLmL_WGoF-H1a?dl=0&preview=RRT+ORGANIZED+PLAY+RULES+PACKET.pdf

[bielmic]

I will not allow proxies. All models MUST represent what they are. The only models allowed in the event are models that are currently in production by Palladium Books and available to the public. I understand how this may upset some people however I want the playing field to be even for all those wishing to attend.

Just to clarify, what about things like the convention/kickstarter "exclusive" RRT QRau (metal or resin) that were (past tense as no restocks seem to ever be coming) made by Palladium but haven't been available for months and might not ever be?

[Nazdrek]

Those are allowed as they are still available for purchase. You will probably be able to even get them at the show to use.

Just to be funny if wave 2 is out by then they will be allowed as well. But we all know that is not going to happen.

[Morgan Vening]

Those are allowed as they are still available for purchase. You will probably be able to even get them at the show to use.

Just to be funny if wave 2 is out by then they will be allowed as well. But we all know that is not going to happen.

I think the position Bielmic is taking, is that while some are available for purchase, the Miriya in FPA is not. And hasn't been, for a significant amount of time, and doesn't appear to be being restocked. This becomes even more an issue if you allow players who were able to purchase in quantity to be able to field them in formations, rather than just having it be a single FPA with Miriya piloting. Because several people have mentioned having bought formations worth.

Also, the Miriya in SValk mode is only a third of a model. Are players allowed to add a SValk to their formation, and if so, does it have to remain in Guardian mode?

[Forar]

Allowing the 'limited edition' figures does seem like an interesting question. I believe a trio of FPA is 100 points? Committing 1/2 ones point allotment to just 3 models seems risky, but I've heard people say that they're tough and hit plenty hard.

So if people can't use them, they're expensive paperweights, but if they can, then they're a highly limited resource that not everyone had access to (it was a long time before the general public could even buy the LE figures off the PB webstore).

Note that I'm not leaning in either direction, I sincerely think it's an interesting quandry. If the metal/resin figures are allowed, certain people will be able to buy (or have bought) their way into force build options that few people could/can.

[Nazdrek]

All figures that were or are considered limited edition are allowed to be used. It will be up to each player to provide his / her own minis. Most of these figures can be purchased at the PB booth at the convention itself.

[Forar]

A few further thoughts then;

- Will Palladium have another run of the Miriya FPA coming? If not, those are out of stock on the webstore (or at least appear to be, in that they're not even showing). As an addendum; even if the FPA is available at Palladium's booth, it'd be above and beyond the call of duty to buy 1, 3, or 6 of them, assemble then, and presumably at least prime and throw a little colour onto them in time for an event. If you aren't aware of another run of these figures, that brings my earlier question back to the forefront.

- What about the "conventional forces" that GHQ and PB offered, at least temporarily? I don't believe Palladium ever officially released the rules for those units, however they were released by one of the people who created/playtested them. I assume not, but I figure it best to be thorough.

- Is this to confirm that players can field a pair of Super VT's in Guardian mode, if using the LE figure, but cannot shift into Fighter or Battloid mode? What about using proxies for those modes, in that they exist in the rules but have never been released as a mini in the RRT line?

I hope this isn't coming across as badgering, but as critical as I am of the Kickstarter campaign and the mess that has evolved since then, if players want to attend one of the biggest gaming conventions in the world and dedicate half a day or so to participating in this tournament, it seems like the kind of thing that should be anal retentively hashed out in advance.

[jaymz]

All figures that were or are considered limited edition are allowed to be used. It will be up to each player to provide his / her own minis. Most of these figures can be purchased at the PB booth at the convention itself.

Which is a fine stance except....again, the limited edition Super VF in Gerwalk mode does not have a corresponding Battloid or Fighter mode so the question is SHOULD this particular mini be allowed since it cannot actually BE used in any other form as there are no minis for those forms OR will you limit it's use to Gerwalk mode only because of the fact it has no minis for those other modes?

[Drachnien]

I wouldnt be too worried about what models are or arent available, just use the paper game pieces. they fit the requirements of being models produced by palladium books and available to the public.

[wilycoyote]

Err not sure if I am reading this right? You are saying that the paper minis constitute a valid army?

Oh boy that sure to realy annoy anyone who spent hours/days/weeks carefully putting together the plastic minis, why bother just download . print and cut out, you can even carry your full army/armies around in a dvd case - all pre painted as ell.

I think you may want to reconsider that position, if nothing else you are trying to show off what is good about RTT

[Morgan Vening]

Err not sure if I am reading this right? You are saying that the paper minis constitute a valid army?

Oh boy that sure to realy annoy anyone who spent hours/days/weeks carefully putting together the plastic minis, why bother just download . print and cut out, you can even carry your full army/armies around in a dvd case - all pre painted as ell.

I think you may want to reconsider that position, if nothing else you are trying to show off what is good about RTT

I'm assuming Drachnien is being facetious there.

Regarding the tournaments, I'm a little concerned about the uptake. It's been 5 weeks, and neither tournament has received the minimum 4 players (both are on 3, one of those only recently). And there's a strong possibility that some of those are duplicated, ie same player playing in both events.

Sure, there's still plenty of time, but it's still concerning this far out, especially given that most of the non-bring-stuff events sold out quickly. So there is interest in the game itself. And it's not like the event set unrealistic expectations. If RRT can't manage to attract more than a handful of players to Organized Play after being on the market for almost three years (with neither previous organized event getting significant numbers either), what's the future hold? Would Wave 2 really shake things up?

I'm hoping for Dan's sake, the situation improves. But it's looking pretty dire, given how much of this stuff is out there (and often quite discounted), if people just aren't wanting to play. At least competitively.

[Spinachcat]

You may want to coordinate with the GMs running intro events and see if they will lend their armies to draw in additional players. The problem with GenCon tourneys is most everyone has to travel and carrying an army is a major pain. I play Warhammer and I only compete at local events because flying with a minis bag is rough. Most airlines charge you for the extra bag and its too big to carry on so you risk your painted figs being crushed in transit.

[TigerBunny76]

Just to chime in. I'm one of the three people showing up for Saturday's Tournament. I'm not doing any other RRT events this year.
It seems odd that this is a 5 hour event that only costs $2.

Is Saturday a 200 pt or 300 pt. Cause the E-mail from Palladium said 300.

[Alpha 11]

So..., how did it go? Pictures?

[TigerBunny76]

How do you post pictures here?

[Spinachcat]

I hope we get pics of the tourneys and other RTT events!

If you have pics, please sent them to PB so they can be shown in a KS update!!

Did anyone here play?

[Morgan Vening]

So..., how did it go? Pictures?

Agreed. It's been a week since the end of GenCon. Even without pictures, they should be able to give an accounting of participants, what they played, who won, etc.

If the intent is to build up the fan base/enthusiasm, then this crap shouldn't be difficult or drawn out.

[Alpha 11]

So..., how did it go? Pictures?

Agreed. It's been a week since the end of GenCon. Even without pictures, they should be able to give an accounting of participants, what they played, who won, etc.

If the intent is to build up the fan base/enthusiasm, then this crap shouldn't be difficult or drawn out.

Unless no one showed up... I REALY hope that didn't happen!

[Morgan Vening]

So..., how did it go? Pictures?

Agreed. It's been a week since the end of GenCon. Even without pictures, they should be able to give an accounting of participants, what they played, who won, etc.

If the intent is to build up the fan base/enthusiasm, then this crap shouldn't be difficult or drawn out.

Unless no one showed up... I REALY hope that didn't happen!

Well, the PBWU mentions that awards were given. And I swung past and saw several tables (at least three games in progress on the Saturday), so SOMETHING happened.

[jaymz]

I think they managed 6 players per game but I think that was it as far as I know. The two announced winners are the same guy Robert Shrewing. I've played him a couple of times. Definitely a die hard for RRT and a good guy.

[TigerBunny76]

I was there. 4 guys on Saturday. I played Robert the first game and got pasted. I didn't catch the other guys name for the second game. Did better with that one, I had two valkyries left at the end of the game. I took fourth, but got best painted army. We all came away with something. I don't know who all brought there own miniatures. I actually painted up a squad of Phalanxes for this event. They took pictures of all of us and our minis. I had multiple people come by to photograph mine.
If Palladium can't post the pictures from the tournament, then I'll find a way to post them. Most likely via link or something.

https://twitter.com/BotulismBunny/media

My second game is here, and a few pics from Friday's.

[Alpha 11]

I think I know who you are talking about. If it is the same guy I'm thinking of, I played him in the OH tournament in '15, in my last game. I got curb stomp. I didin't even finish the game, just said you win, it was that bad.

I was there. 4 guys on Saturday. I played Robert the first game and got pasted. I didn't catch the other guys name for the second game. Did better with that one, I had two valkyries left at the end of the game. I took fourth, but got best painted army. We all came away with something. I don't know who all brought there own miniatures. I actually painted up a squad of Phalanxes for this event. They took pictures of all of us and our minis. I had multiple people come by to photograph mine.
If Palladium can't post the pictures from the tournament, then I'll find a way to post them. Most likely via link or something.

https://twitter.com/BotulismBunny/media

My second game is here, and a few pics from Friday's.

Thanks for the pictures!

[jaymz]

I am pretty sure Rob did not go to the OH. That is usually during his busy time (Tax season for businesses) and he can't even get a A game in let alone a weekend of it out of country

[Alpha 11]

I am pretty sure Rob did not go to the OH. That is usually during his busy time (Tax season for businesses) and he can't even get a A game in let alone a weekend of it out of country

Then I might be wrong then.