Level of new Powers

[Razorwing]

While most heroes with powers will have had them since they begin their "heroic" careers, there are a few instances when some Power Categories in Heroes Unlimited gain new powers at later levels.

What level do these new powers function at for things that are calculated based on level.

For example, a Mutant with the Continuous Mutation can gain a new Minor Power at 6th level... and if it were of the Energy Expulsion type, would the damage be calculated as if they were 6th level or would the power function as if it was at 1st (since they only now developed this power)? The closest thing to this nature I can find is when characters gain new skills... where the new skills start at the base level of proficiency (plus any applicable training bonuses) and then grow from there. This would suggest that new powers would also start at the base level for a 1st level character and then grow with each new level. The only difference is that Powers are not skills (though one does need to practice with them to use them skillfully).

Then again, it could be fun to let a player have the full power of these powers at their current level, but have them "learn" to control such power over time (that level), so while a 6th level character can throw fireballs with Energy Expulsion: Fire he just developed (at the damage for a 6th level character)... he can't control how much damage it does or split it into simultaneous blasts at different targets without a little practice... with mastery of the new power being attained at level 7. I see this as a chance for some interesting role-playing as such a character must learn to control his new power (by rolling under his level on a D20 to regulate the blasts)... something that is easier for a higher level character to do, though still not entirely easy... until they get the hang of things by the time they reach their next level (when such power control rolls are no longer needed... for that power anyways).

I am just curious as to what others think should be done, since I can't seem to find an official ruling in any of the books (though if I missed it, please point out where I can find it).

[Stone Gargoyle]

New powers start at first level.

[eliakon]

Based on looking at NPCs in the books I think that they start at your level, aka they are treated the same as psionics, spells, Nightbane talents, martial art powers and the like.
This is because I can not find an instance in any book of any NPC that has a separate listing for their powers based on separate levels (though I will admit that I may have missed such an NPC, if so I would be happy to have it pointed out to me).

As super powers, to me, seem to be most closely similar to psionics and Nightbane talents and not mundane skills I would, personally, assume that they follow the rules for those sorts of abilities (that generally your power operates at your level regardless of when you gain the power unless specifically noted otherwise).

THAT said, I would not argue with a GM that wanted to have the powers work this way in their game. Assuming that they were making sure to have this rule apply to all their NPCs as well. As it would be grossly unfair to let NPCs to have their stats be as written in the books but require the players to take a far weaker version of everything.

[drewkitty ~..~]

New powers start at first level.

This ether needs to be backed up with a reference from the text or stating it as a opinion.

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As far as I know, superpowers act like spells and psi powers. Where the power level is based off the char's whole level of exp.

[Razorwing]

I would have to agree that new powers gained at higher levels would work more like Psionic Powers or Spell Magic in that the character uses their full level to determine things that use their level as a variable.

That said, I still think it would be fun for players to role-play learning a bit of control for their new power... such as being able to control things like damage or areas of effect and such. It provides an opportunity for role-playing that we see happen in comics when heroes develop new powers... they have to learn how to control them rather than have instant knowledge of all that they can do with them. This would be more of something that I would encourage, but not force players to do... and if they wish to do the same thing with new psionics or new spells, then why not?

[Glistam]

I have new powers start at the characters current level.

[Razorwing]

I have new powers start at the characters current level.

I think most players and GMs do this... I just wanted to be sure this was the "official" take... since there are only a few ways to get Powers at higher levels (Mutants, Plant and Animal Gestalts and Immortals are the only power categories that potentially develop new Super Abilities at higher levels; at least in the books I have). To be honest... I don't think there is an official ruling from Palladium on this... but given that Spell Magic and Psionics work in a similar manner, it stands to reason that Super Abilities would too.

[Slight001]

I ran a supers game a while back... during the game many of the players gained new abilities. I would allow the power to start at first level but then level up faster as the pc gained experience in using it or engaged in training to better understand the power until it finally was at the same level as the player.

[Razorwing]

I ran a supers game a while back... during the game many of the players gained new abilities. I would allow the power to start at first level but then level up faster as the pc gained experience in using it or engaged in training to better understand the power until it finally was at the same level as the player.

How would that work with other abilities such as psionics and magic spells that can be gained at new levels? Presumably, the psychic or sorcerer has had no previous experience with these specific powers/spells before... and thus they should be in a similar situation, yes?

Not trying to be difficult, but looking for ways to expand my idea of having players getting used to new powers and abilities when gained... for role-playing encouragement. People do not start out knowing everything that a new ability is capable of the first time they get it so it does make sense that there should be a bit of a learning curve, though the more experienced one is, the smaller the curve is likely to be as they have possibly been through this before (gaining new abilities that is).

With spells... I am thinking that a sorcerer type needs to roll under their level (on a d20) a number of times equal to the level of the spell to get a good mastery of the spell. Thus it is easier to master low level spells than it is to master high level ones... especially at low levels (for those who can learn any level of spell regardless of their own level). This could take only a single battle for combat spells... or a few weeks or months for more utility or special case spells (even years if a low level character tries to learn a high level spell)... but they use their current level to determine the success. On a failure, the spell still goes off, more or less as expected, but with the GM tweeking something like duration or damage to show that the sorcerer still hasn't quite mastered the spell (and more for flavor than to be intentionally malicious). Scrolls and rituals however aren't likely to have these problems as they work under different principles. This can even be justified as part of the imperfection that is human memory... it takes some time to be so familiar with a spell that one can pronounce all the power words for it flawlessly to do the intended effect exactly as intended.

Still trying to come up with an idea for a learning curve for new psionic powers.

As mentioned before... this is entirely optional for my players... to make their characters feel a bit more realistic as their abilities grow and they learn new tricks, powers and such. It is something I would encourage them to do... but not force them. It is intended to make their new abilities feel like something new that they have to get used to before it becomes second nature.

[eliakon]

I ran a supers game a while back... during the game many of the players gained new abilities. I would allow the power to start at first level but then level up faster as the pc gained experience in using it or engaged in training to better understand the power until it finally was at the same level as the player.

How would that work with other abilities such as psionics and magic spells that can be gained at new levels? Presumably, the psychic or sorcerer has had no previous experience with these specific powers/spells before... and thus they should be in a similar situation, yes?

Not trying to be difficult, but looking for ways to expand my idea of having players getting used to new powers and abilities when gained... for role-playing encouragement. People do not start out knowing everything that a new ability is capable of the first time they get it so it does make sense that there should be a bit of a learning curve, though the more experienced one is, the smaller the curve is likely to be as they have possibly been through this before (gaining new abilities that is).

With spells... I am thinking that a sorcerer type needs to roll under their level (on a d20) a number of times equal to the level of the spell to get a good mastery of the spell. Thus it is easier to master low level spells than it is to master high level ones... especially at low levels (for those who can learn any level of spell regardless of their own level). This could take only a single battle for combat spells... or a few weeks or months for more utility or special case spells (even years if a low level character tries to learn a high level spell)... but they use their current level to determine the success. On a failure, the spell still goes off, more or less as expected, but with the GM tweeking something like duration or damage to show that the sorcerer still hasn't quite mastered the spell (and more for flavor than to be intentionally malicious). Scrolls and rituals however aren't likely to have these problems as they work under different principles. This can even be justified as part of the imperfection that is human memory... it takes some time to be so familiar with a spell that one can pronounce all the power words for it flawlessly to do the intended effect exactly as intended.

Still trying to come up with an idea for a learning curve for new psionic powers.

As mentioned before... this is entirely optional for my players... to make their characters feel a bit more realistic as their abilities grow and they learn new tricks, powers and such. It is something I would encourage them to do... but not force them. It is intended to make their new abilities feel like something new that they have to get used to before it becomes second nature.

Its not quite the same but...
In my game I have changed how spell teaching works. From my house rules hand out
k. Spell teaching does not take 2day per level, but instead 1d6 Hours, plus 1d4 hours per level of the spell. The next few castings will require the caster to make a PoM roll to ‘get it right’. Failed PoM rolls will result in some sort of failed version, once the mage has made 15-(level) successful casts they will ‘have it down’ and will be able to cast it perfectly at will.

It would be easy to add a level effect there. Not sure I would want to go that route though. Doing so makes it harder for a level 15 archmage to learn a new level 1 spell, than it is for a level 2 apprentice to learn a new spell of legend!
But, regardless that is how I mechanically handled the "it takes a bit to get the hang of a new spell"
So, for me instead of the spell starting at 'effects as a level 1 caster, and work your way up' I have it as "you always will have your full raw power...but you need to get the hang of controlling the blasted thing."
I don't apply this to level up spells, on the theory that the caster has been working on that spell off and on for the last level. Practicing rotes, studying mantras... whatever. So that when they are ready to actually cast the spell they have it nailed.

In my games I allow for psionics to be taught as well (at least by psi-teachers if they possess a special psionic talent). And a similar rule is in effect for a power that is taught to you.
It wouldn't be too hard to simply adopt such a rule to every new power/spell what ever and go.

[Razorwing]

I ran a supers game a while back... during the game many of the players gained new abilities. I would allow the power to start at first level but then level up faster as the pc gained experience in using it or engaged in training to better understand the power until it finally was at the same level as the player.

How would that work with other abilities such as psionics and magic spells that can be gained at new levels? Presumably, the psychic or sorcerer has had no previous experience with these specific powers/spells before... and thus they should be in a similar situation, yes?

Not trying to be difficult, but looking for ways to expand my idea of having players getting used to new powers and abilities when gained... for role-playing encouragement. People do not start out knowing everything that a new ability is capable of the first time they get it so it does make sense that there should be a bit of a learning curve, though the more experienced one is, the smaller the curve is likely to be as they have possibly been through this before (gaining new abilities that is).

With spells... I am thinking that a sorcerer type needs to roll under their level (on a d20) a number of times equal to the level of the spell to get a good mastery of the spell. Thus it is easier to master low level spells than it is to master high level ones... especially at low levels (for those who can learn any level of spell regardless of their own level). This could take only a single battle for combat spells... or a few weeks or months for more utility or special case spells (even years if a low level character tries to learn a high level spell)... but they use their current level to determine the success. On a failure, the spell still goes off, more or less as expected, but with the GM tweeking something like duration or damage to show that the sorcerer still hasn't quite mastered the spell (and more for flavor than to be intentionally malicious). Scrolls and rituals however aren't likely to have these problems as they work under different principles. This can even be justified as part of the imperfection that is human memory... it takes some time to be so familiar with a spell that one can pronounce all the power words for it flawlessly to do the intended effect exactly as intended.

Still trying to come up with an idea for a learning curve for new psionic powers.

As mentioned before... this is entirely optional for my players... to make their characters feel a bit more realistic as their abilities grow and they learn new tricks, powers and such. It is something I would encourage them to do... but not force them. It is intended to make their new abilities feel like something new that they have to get used to before it becomes second nature.

Its not quite the same but...
In my game I have changed how spell teaching works. From my house rules hand out
k. Spell teaching does not take 2day per level, but instead 1d6 Hours, plus 1d4 hours per level of the spell. The next few castings will require the caster to make a PoM roll to ‘get it right’. Failed PoM rolls will result in some sort of failed version, once the mage has made 15-(level) successful casts they will ‘have it down’ and will be able to cast it perfectly at will.

It would be easy to add a level effect there. Not sure I would want to go that route though. Doing so makes it harder for a level 15 archmage to learn a new level 1 spell, than it is for a level 2 apprentice to learn a new spell of legend!
But, regardless that is how I mechanically handled the "it takes a bit to get the hang of a new spell"
So, for me instead of the spell starting at 'effects as a level 1 caster, and work your way up' I have it as "you always will have your full raw power...but you need to get the hang of controlling the blasted thing."
I don't apply this to level up spells, on the theory that the caster has been working on that spell off and on for the last level. Practicing rotes, studying mantras... whatever. So that when they are ready to actually cast the spell they have it nailed.

In my games I allow for psionics to be taught as well (at least by psi-teachers if they possess a special psionic talent). And a similar rule is in effect for a power that is taught to you.
It wouldn't be too hard to simply adopt such a rule to every new power/spell what ever and go.

I do want a method to create a learning curve for all new powers... super, magical or psionic in nature... that can be used to encourage (never force) players to role-play the learning to control these new abilities. The trick is to keep it fairly simple while still being diverse enough to handle all the possibilities.

The basic mechanic I am thinking of using is a d20 roll where the player rolls under their level to maintain full control of their ability (thus a 1st level character just learning their powers needs to roll a 1 or lower to get the exact result they are after... while a level 15 character needs to roll a 15 or less to use their newly acquired ability properly). Properly in this case means that they player decides the full extent of the ability... from range, duration and damage to any other aspect they can potentially control. Failure to maintain control still sees the power work... just not completely under the player's control (perhaps the player can't turn the power off before the full duration or sees the duration reduced to less than what he intends... or something similar). They still get the use of the power... just lacking that fine control we see with experienced heroes and villains.

The tricky thing is deciding how long it takes the heroes to get full mastery of their powers before they no longer need to make the roll.

With new spells, I am thinking that the sorcerer need to cast the spell a number of times equal to the spells level (not their level) to get it just right. They don't have to cast the spell properly each time... merely enough times to figure out just what mistakes they are making with the spell. Thus it is easier and quicker to master a low level spell than it is a high level spell (which does make sense). After casting it a number of times equal to the spell level, the sorcerer gets a feel for what mistake they are making. I will also rule that by the time they reach their next level, any spells they haven't mastered in this way are also considered mastered (as some of the higher level spells are not easily cast... requiring lots of PPE that the sorcerer may not be able to acquire easily enough to cast) so long as they have cast the spell at least once during the level they acquired it.

Psionics and Super Powers are not as easy to classify in this way as they don't have levels. I am thinking that Minor Powers would need 5 uses to master (plus 1 for any additional functions they may have) while Major Powers need 10 uses to master (plus one for each sub-power within them). Of course this is only needed for powers that require the player to control them (an act of will to use)... innate abilities like regeneration or such function without the need to master. Thus the Immune to Fire minor power doesn't require a roll to master as it is an innate power that requires no act of will to use... but throwing fireballs (energy expulsion: fire) at an enemy does need a roll as the character must will the flames to exist... and thus a control roll would be needed when the power is acquired.

For Psionics, the lesser categories of Healing, Physical and Sensitive would work like minor powers... while Super Psionics would be more like Major powers.

Even here I may tweek the numbers a bit... this is supposed to provide spice to newly acquired powers (and give players a reason to practice them before using them in battle) rather than to punish them for gaining new abilities... and to encourage role-play... especially if it leads to consequences that the characters never intended (while the players enjoy the complications).

[Slight001]

The campaign I ran didn't have any psionics or mages... none of the players were keen on the palladium systems for magic and psionics even after I told them that I'd make sure none of them were left behind or would feel unneeded or even over powered... all four decided to be mutants with the progressive mutation trait...

There were no hard set mechanics for this process as I never really found the need for it and the players responded well to my choices. The only truly set mechanic was that the power would gain at least 2 levels when the pc leveled up to the pc's new max. I would also consider leveling a power by itself if a pc demonstrated a concerted effort to 'learn/master' the new power.

[Tick]

I would say new powers gained later is due to evolution and experience, there for the new power should begin at a power level equal to the characters level. The power is an extention of a characters knowledge and improved skills and mastery over ones self.

[Razorwing]

I would say new powers gained later is due to evolution and experience, there for the new power should begin at a power level equal to the characters level. The power is an extention of a characters knowledge and improved skills and mastery over ones self.

That does seem to be the consensus. The question now becomes... should the person have 100% control over every aspect of a power they have only just learned without any previous practice with it? Does it make sense that they automatically know every aspect of a power that they only just learned they have... with all the skill and control they have with powers they have used for years? Or should the sudden appearance of this power initially overwhelm them a little... requiring them to practice a bit to get the hang of what it can do and how they might use it in their careers as crime-fighters (or criminals). This is especially problematic when they have no other powers of a similar nature... how does one cope with suddenly having superhuman levels of strength when before all they could do was run really fast or fly? Suddenly they are now in a world that is like Styrofoam to them... able to crush bricks as if they were dirt clods.

Okay, so not everyone wants to bother with such minor details and focus on the thrill of having new powers and abilities... and leave it at that. That's fine... but there are some people that see the potential role-playing potential of not being in complete control of new abilities from the moment they appear. You see it a lot in cartoons and comics where a character gains a new ability and needs to learn how to control it... least they become as much a danger to their friends as their enemies are. In some cases, the power is easy to control with a little effort (especially for more experienced heroes)... other times... it takes a fair amount of practice. We saw this a lot in the first season of Smallville where Clark developed a few of his signature powers (X-Ray Vision and such) that become a part of his destined role as Superman. We also see it in the Flash during the first episodes where he is learning to control his speed... or use it in new ways (like throwing lightning in the second season).

How would you reflect this learning curve in games where characters regularly develop new abilities or learn new powers/spells... if you bother with this at all. If a player wanted to role-play such, would you create an easy mechanic to represent it (but leave the details to role-playing)... or leave it all up to the player to express through role-play?

[Tick]

I would say new powers gained later is due to evolution and experience, there for the new power should begin at a power level equal to the characters level. The power is an extention of a characters knowledge and improved skills and mastery over ones self.

That does seem to be the consensus. The question now becomes... should the person have 100% control over every aspect of a power they have only just learned without any previous practice with it? Does it make sense that they automatically know every aspect of a power that they only just learned they have... with all the skill and control they have with powers they have used for years? Or should the sudden appearance of this power initially overwhelm them a little... requiring them to practice a bit to get the hang of what it can do and how they might use it in their careers as crime-fighters (or criminals). This is especially problematic when they have no other powers of a similar nature... how does one cope with suddenly having superhuman levels of strength when before all they could do was run really fast or fly? Suddenly they are now in a world that is like Styrofoam to them... able to crush bricks as if they were dirt clods.

Okay, so not everyone wants to bother with such minor details and focus on the thrill of having new powers and abilities... and leave it at that. That's fine... but there are some people that see the potential role-playing potential of not being in complete control of new abilities from the moment they appear. You see it a lot in cartoons and comics where a character gains a new ability and needs to learn how to control it... least they become as much a danger to their friends as their enemies are. In some cases, the power is easy to control with a little effort (especially for more experienced heroes)... other times... it takes a fair amount of practice. We saw this a lot in the first season of Smallville where Clark developed a few of his signature powers (X-Ray Vision and such) that become a part of his destined role as Superman. We also see it in the Flash during the first episodes where he is learning to control his speed... or use it in new ways (like throwing lightning in the second season).

How would you reflect this learning curve in games where characters regularly develop new abilities or learn new powers/spells... if you bother with this at all. If a player wanted to role-play such, would you create an easy mechanic to represent it (but leave the details to role-playing)... or leave it all up to the player to express through role-play?

It would depend on the new power. A shooting power is not much different than firing a gun. Just intensity control might be an issue. Flight is like jumping or they could take a sky diving or paragliding lesson... Done. Simple solutions and skills to learn a power through skills too. Common sense stuff if you ask me.