Dogs, Dog Boys, etc. vs the Supernatural, vamps, etc

[VooDu]

Quick question in regards to dogs and canine types:

In Chaos Earth canines are the enemy of all supernatural evil. It says that their SDC bite will inflict the same in MDC to supernatural creatures and the supernatural creatures get no bonus to strike, parry or dodge and regeneration works after 30 minutes from those wounds. Does this mean that dogs, Dog Boys, Wolfen, etc. do damage to dragons, vampires, demons, and all other supernatural evil? If that's the case a pack of Dog Boys on some vamps could be interesting except that they still take MDC damage unless the creature has a specific weakness to canines then it turns to SDC damage.

[eliakon]

Quick question in regards to dogs and canine types:

In Chaos Earth canines are the enemy of all supernatural evil. It says that their SDC bite will inflict the same in MDC to supernatural creatures and the supernatural creatures get no bonus to strike, parry or dodge and regeneration works after 30 minutes from those wounds. Does this mean that dogs, Dog Boys, Wolfen, etc. do damage to dragons, vampires, demons, and all other supernatural evil? If that's the case a pack of Dog Boys on some vamps could be interesting except that they still take MDC damage unless the creature has a specific weakness to canines then it turns to SDC damage.

Answer: It depends.
I know people hate that answer but its the one that applies here.
There are a few reasons.
1) the first of course is that these rules are in Chaos Earth and not in Rifts or Palladium Fantasy or BTS... meaning that while said rules apply in that setting, they may or may not apply in the other games. There are a lot of rules that are quite obviously game line specific and thus it is impossible to say with certainty if this is or is not one of them

2) the second is that the rules in the CE book say "dogs" it doesn't say all canines or all things that look canine. Thus it is a question of how pure a 'dog' something has to be before it stops being a dog. Does a wolf count? A coyote? Is a Dogboy still a 'dog'?

3) this of course brings up a related issue. In CE there is a massive lack of ways to harm supernatural forces but a huge array of said forces. Unlike in Rifts MD weapons are scarce to non-existant; mages are almost unheard of and those rare few are unreliable, with few spells and no understanding of what they are doing; psychics are incredibly rare, and the few that exist are rarely capable of inflicting MD. Thus in the CE setting an equalizer is not just a good thing it is a necessity otherwise the first supernatural thing to show up can very easily result in a complete TPK. In Rifts or PF though there are a lot of options available to people and the 'balance of power' is not tipped so lopsided. Thus there is no need to grant one side a huge power boost. ESPECIALLY something like this to dog boys. A normal dog getting the 'no bonus' thing makes sense... they don't get training and thus they need to have some way of offsetting the bonuses of the supernatural beings otherwise they will never hit. But a dogboy will have full combat training, in their hands the power suddenly becomes an incredibly potent 'instant kill' ability that makes them able to utterly destroy almost any supernatural being with almost no risk. If that is what the GM wants in their game go for it... but understand what it is that your doing first.

[The Beast]

The canine races aren't considered to be dogs anymore, so no, their attacks don't do any damage outside of what's listed in their stats. Furthermore, AFAIK the rule you pointed out is specific to that setting only and wasn't carried over to Rifts or any of the other settings.

[VooDu]

It does go with the Chaos Earth setting so I can understand how it stays there but so much crosses over. So if they end up in Chaos Earth they take the damage. Eliakon it actually says canine not dog, that's why I typed canine. In the rule if it were dog I would not have included the Canine-like races that are all over Palladium.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip... If that's the case a pack of Dog Boys on some vamps could be interesting except that they still take MDC damage unless the creature has a specific weakness to canines then it turns to SDC damage.

Since the Q has be answered,
Vamps do not have MDC so they do not take MD even if hit with MD weapons that can hurt them. Vamps are pure HP creatures so take HP damage.

Since dogboys are not minor CoM they don't do damage to vamps even under the SD ratings.
MDC/SDC/HP are structure.
MD/SD/'HP damage' are damage.

The 'D' in MD and SD stands for the word 'Damage'. So they are read Mega Damage and Structural Damage.

in other words saying damage damage is quite redundant.

[Killer Cyborg]

Since dogboys are not minor CoM they don't do damage to vamps even under the SD ratings.

"Minor Creatures of Magic" does not equal "All things that can harm vampires."

[drewkitty ~..~]

Since dogboys are not minor CoM they don't do damage to vamps even under the SD ratings.

"Minor Creatures of Magic" does not equal "All things that can harm vampires."

I do make the mistake, every so often, of assuming people talking here are smart & knowledgable about what is being talked about. Sorry.
--------

Warning: You also are making the mistake of trolling. I recommend avoiding it.

Minor CoM are THE LEAST OF those that can harm vamps. Which are the closest to what is being talked about.

defining usage: Minor CoM: CoM w/o SNPS.

[Killer Cyborg]

Since dogboys are not minor CoM they don't do damage to vamps even under the SD ratings.

"Minor Creatures of Magic" does not equal "All things that can harm vampires."

I do make the mistake, every so often, of assuming people talking here are smart & knowledgable about what is being talked about. Sorry.

Might want to watch that assumption, Person Talking Here.

Minor CoM are THE LEAST OF those that can harm vamps. Which are the closest to what is being talked about.

defining usage: Minor CoM: CoM w/o SNPS.

"Creatures of Magic" does not equal "all things that can harm vampires."

Vampires can be harmed in varying degrees by:
-Supernatural creatures
-Creatures of Magic
-Magic
-Silver
-Psionics
-Holy items
-Supernatural PS
-Phase Weapons
AND a number of other things, including possibly "Dogs," because under the Rifts: Chaos Earth rules, Dogs can hurt evil supernatural creatures.

Arguing that dogs (or Dog Boys) are not Creatures of Magic has no more bearing than arguing that they are not silver, holy, or phase weapons.

[drewkitty ~..~]

-Supernatural creatures >a those<
-Creatures of Magic w/SNPS >a those<
CoM w/o SNPS>a those<
-Magic >a Thing<
-Silver >a Thing<
-Psionics >a Thing<
-Holy items >a Thing<
-Supernatural PS >based on miswritten to the point of be incoherent/disputed text that has been misread because of said miswriting.<(you said your PoV, so I'm saying mine, so people know it is disputed. So leave it at that.)
-Phase Weapons >a Thing<

You forgot those supers with the SNPS SA. >a those<
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I was pointing out that that DB were not even CoM w/o SNPS which is the least of those beings that can harm vamps. Which IS an argument and The Best argument that they do not do h2h damage to vamps. The Best argument that they do is from CE text talking about natural dogs, not a race of dog people.

Since you wanted an argument about why not....
Since all other Canine race of People have already been thrown out as "Not Dogs" as per the CE text. It logically follows to throw out the rifts canine race of People with the others into those who can not.
Those munchkins (no one specific) who want to Bling Out their new/old dogboy char with a new unstated in the race text power are SoL.

[ShadowLogan]

Since dogboys are not minor CoM they don't do damage to vamps even under the SD ratings.

"Minor Creatures of Magic" does not equal "All things that can harm vampires."

Not to mention a percentage of Dogboys exist that have the potential to harms vampires:
-4% per RUE (pg149 81-85% roll) have that weird "Supernatural endurance", but with modifiers to PS lift/carry in addition to duration and save bonuses more benefiting PE. so they might qualify as SN creature (and the PS modifier on the mutation is excellent in terms of lift/carry). This was introduced post RMB (said mutation isn't an option) in Lone Star.
-4% per RUE and RMB can have a mix of Super and/or Physical category psi-powers. Unfortunately there is no percentage break down in terms of how many are S/P-cats or pure P-cat, or even what powers are common (so the actual percentage will be lower). Those with Super-Category have options (Psi-Sword, Hydrokensis, Mind Bolt), Physical-cat has Telekensis which is called out (provided suitable material is available). TK Punch/Kick or TK Push might also harm vampires (they came out post WB1o, sorry don't have WB1r), allowing for more potential harm to be done. TK Accel. Attack is also an option given the proper material, but depending on if one is using the RMB-era/WB12 or RUE version (WB12 had it as a physical, RUE has it as Super)... Ectoplasm isn't identified one-way or the other (in WB1o, so it may or may not be effective directly, but it effectively is TK)

Now I admit I'm not sure if the 1st one works, and the 2nd one depends on what powers are acquired so the percentage of Dogboys that can potentially harm a Vampire is at most 8%, and likely less than 4%. At least if we ignore giving the Dogboy suitable weapons and/or materials that can harm a vampire.

[Killer Cyborg]

-Supernatural creatures >a those<
-Creatures of Magic w/SNPS >a those<
CoM w/o SNPS>a those<
-Magic >a Thing<
-Silver >a Thing<
-Psionics >a Thing<
-Holy items >a Thing<
-Supernatural PS >based on miswritten to the point of be incoherent/disputed text that has been misread because of said miswriting.<(you said your PoV, so I'm saying mine, so people know it is disputed. So leave it at that.)
-Phase Weapons >a Thing<

You forgot those supers with the SNPS SA. >a those<
----------

Most of that is just gibberish to me, so I have no idea what you're trying to say.

I was pointing out that that DB were not even CoM w/o SNPS which is the least of those beings that can harm vamps.

And it's the "which is the least of those beings that can harm vamps" where you stop making sense.
There's no tier or hierarchy of things that can harm vamps. There's a list.

The Best argument that they do is from CE text talking about natural dogs, not a race of dog people.

Agreed. The question is "Are Dog Boys dogs?" and there's not much evidence that anthropomorphic mutant animals count as the original animal that they once were.

[drewkitty ~..~]

-Supernatural creatures >a those<
-Creatures of Magic w/SNPS >a those<
CoM w/o SNPS>a those<
supers with the SNPS SA. >a those<

What is being talked about is a living beings (dogs) that can harm the SN in CE. So "Things" have no place in the discussion, so why did you KC mention them. I didn't.
The way things are, it looks like you want to restart the what can hurt vamps argument here. Please don't.

The Only idea I was trying to get across that Dogboys are not even the least of those (living beings) that can harm vamps (a type of SN) bare handed. And therefor, in Rifts, no DogBoys(&Girls) can't harm the SN by their bare handed h2h attacks.

However, this argument seams to be based of the PB writing par "lack of details about rules interactions". Since there is not room in any one book to cover all the rules interactions between settings, those (players) who want DB&G to harm the SN with their bare handed attacks are SoL.

[Killer Cyborg]

-Supernatural creatures >a those<
-Creatures of Magic w/SNPS >a those<
CoM w/o SNPS>a those<
supers with the SNPS SA. >a those<

What is being talked about is a living beings (dogs) that can harm the SN in CE. So "Things" have no place in the discussion, so why did you KC mention them.

So you are for some reason distinguishing between "living things" and "non-living things."
Okay.
Whatever.

The Only idea I was trying to get across that Dogboys are not even the least of those (living beings) that can harm vamps (a type of SN) bare handed.

Again, there's not a hierarchy of things (living or non-living) that can harm vampires; there's a list.
Not sure why your imagined hierarchy would place "creatures of magic" as lower down than "dogs," but that doesn't really matter.

[drewkitty ~..~]

-Supernatural creatures >a those<
-Creatures of Magic w/SNPS >a those<
CoM w/o SNPS>a those<
supers with the SNPS SA. >a those<

What is being talked about is a living beings (dogs) that can harm the SN in CE. So "Things" have no place in the discussion, so why did you KC mention them.

So you are for some reason distinguishing between "living things" and "non-living things."
Okay.
Whatever.

The Only idea I was trying to get across that Dogboys are not even the least of those (living beings) that can harm vamps (a type of SN) bare handed.

Again, there's not a hierarchy of things (living or non-living) that can harm vampires; there's a list.
Not sure why your imagined hierarchy would place "creatures of magic" as lower down than "dogs," but that doesn't really matter.

I did explain it. In the post you quoted.

Please do not try to distract from the subject at hand.I have given you enough information that you can research what I mean w/o responding off the cuff.

[Killer Cyborg]

-Supernatural creatures >a those<
-Creatures of Magic w/SNPS >a those<
CoM w/o SNPS>a those<
supers with the SNPS SA. >a those<

What is being talked about is a living beings (dogs) that can harm the SN in CE. So "Things" have no place in the discussion, so why did you KC mention them.

So you are for some reason distinguishing between "living things" and "non-living things."
Okay.
Whatever.

The Only idea I was trying to get across that Dogboys are not even the least of those (living beings) that can harm vamps (a type of SN) bare handed.

Again, there's not a hierarchy of things (living or non-living) that can harm vampires; there's a list.
Not sure why your imagined hierarchy would place "creatures of magic" as lower down than "dogs," but that doesn't really matter.

I did explain it. In the post you quoted.

Sure.
And these are not the droids I'm looking for.

[VooDu]

Clarify about the MDC/SDC thing:

It says in CE that the MDC that a SN being does is still MDC and it will destroy the dog with one swipe pretty much regardless unless that SN natural creature has a weakness to dogs/canines then that damage becomes SDC.

CE Sourcebook: Creatures of Chaos pg. 12:

As a natural nemesis of supernatural evil, the dog's bite (ranging from 1d4, 1d6, to 2d6 SDC depending on the size and type of canine) does SDC damage as a MD equivalent, point for point, to the supernatural being. Moreover, the demon gets no bonuses to strike, parry, or dodge against the animal, nor do the demon's powers of regeneration work as quickly on damage inflicted by it (heals after 30 minutes). Unfortunately the dog remains a mortal being and is easily slain by a single MD blow from the supernatural monster.

Later it talks about the Spiked Strangler and since it has a weakness to dogs that it does SDC not MDC to the canine and also the canine does double MDC to the Strangler.

It talks about how that they are the enemy to ALL supernatural evil and how it can sense, see, etc...a lot of this stuff a dog boy can do and that was why they were made...I can understand how that can change due to how strong the SN presence is now in Rifts Earth and it only applies to CE. Or it just applies to CE period and that's that....but it does make it interesting for dog/canine types if you let it fly for all canines/canine types when in CE.

[drewkitty ~..~]

MDC is used with the word 'is'. "does" is for MD.
Did you quote from the book? if so it needs ether a " " around them or a

quote box.

--------
Yep, I understood that dogs in CE do damage to the MDC demons as per their rated SD because of the weakness in all the demons. But the talk moved to whether or not the same ability was passed onto Rift's DogBoys&Girls, and then to something started by a misunderstanding about something I said.
---------------
The Spiked Strangler demons have an additional weakness to dogs, thus the addition penalties. I would presume that if the Spiked Strangler was converted to Rifts that dogs could still do damage to as per their SD rated attacks. Just losing taking double damage from dogs and doing only SD to dogs.

Defining SD.....Follow the below pattern
MDC/MD
SDC/SD
---------
If I was to do a rewrite up about the origins Dogboys I might writing into the text the geneticists trying to make a humanoid dog race with this power to harm demons, and ether utterly failing to transfer this ability or if I was rewriting the text that ....over the years there was a change in ether the demons or the fabric of reality to where dogs could not harm demons anymore so the whole project of the humanoid dog race was shelved before it could be completed...

That animals loose "all" their natural power and abilities when mutated into people with human level intelligence is standard rules as per the ATB1&2 and HU1&2 texts. That they have to be Bio-E'ed back into the char is the standard rules.

[eliakon]

Clarify about the MDC/SDC thing:

It says in CE that the MDC that a SN being does is still MDC and it will destroy the dog with one swipe pretty much regardless unless that SN natural creature has a weakness to dogs/canines then that damage becomes SDC.

CE Sourcebook: Creatures of Chaos pg. 12:

As a natural nemesis of supernatural evil, the dog's bite (ranging from 1d4, 1d6, to 2d6 SDC depending on the size and type of canine) does SDC damage as a MD equivalent, point for point, to the supernatural being. Moreover, the demon gets no bonuses to strike, parry, or dodge against the animal, nor do the demon's powers of regeneration work as quickly on damage inflicted by it (heals after 30 minutes). Unfortunately the dog remains a mortal being and is easily slain by a single MD blow from the supernatural monster.

Later it talks about the Spiked Strangler and since it has a weakness to dogs that it does SDC not MDC to the canine and also the canine does double MDC to the Strangler.

It talks about how that they are the enemy to ALL supernatural evil and how it can sense, see, etc...a lot of this stuff a dog boy can do and that was why they were made...I can understand how that can change due to how strong the SN presence is now in Rifts Earth and it only applies to CE. Or it just applies to CE period and that's that....but it does make it interesting for dog/canine types if you let it fly for all canines/canine types when in CE.

If I were to do this in a game I think I would split the difference.
I would let their bite do damage to Supernatural Creatures, however I would allow the Supernatural Creature its normal rolls. This isn't quite as bad as it sounds because dogs can still use the simultaneous attack rule and thus make a bite that cant be defended against (once)... but it avoids the (to me silly) specter of having a greater demon be killed by a pack of three or four dogs because it has to make straight d20 rolls...
I would probably keep this in Rifts too. A dogboy could bite a critter for damage. Most wont, they would rather use their weapons... but if the vibro-blades are just bouncing off its time to take one for the team and find out what the monster tastes like.

[13eowulf]

I think it is in PU2 where it states that too much genetic tinkering destroys or prevents use of other abilities, like channeling magic, in a manner not unlike bionics.
Turning a canine into a dog boy was a whole mess of genetic tinkering, so to me it makes sense that the stated ability in CE for canines to damage the Supernatural got lost along that artificial genetic journey to dog boy.

Just my 2 cents.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think it is in PU2 where it states that too much genetic tinkering destroys or prevents use of other abilities, like channeling magic, in a manner not unlike bionics.
Turning a canine into a dog boy was a whole mess of genetic tinkering, so to me it makes sense that the stated ability in CE for canines to damage the Supernatural got lost along that artificial genetic journey to dog boy.

Just my 2 cents.

Makes sense to me.
Also makes me want to read more of the PU books.

Personally, I just skip the whole "dogs hurt supernatural evil creatures" thing entirely, BUT if I was going to include it, I'd let it carry over to Dog Boys' natural attacks.
Why not?
The power level of the game has increased so much since the beginning, I'm fine with Dog Boys having an upgrade at this point.