Animal Metamorphosis, Should it be a minor?

[Nightmartree]

I've been looking at the animal metamorphosis power repeatedly and besides 91-00 transform into any and all animals...it really feels like turning into only one type of animal should be a minor power.

As an example, for all the benefits turning into a bear gives you its not a better defensive boost then some of the powers unlimited minor defensive powers, the superhuman ps (going off animal abilities major power as suggest in the book) is good, but its not as good at the actual superhuman PS skill, and its actually harder to use, lets see your bear lift that beam and walk it off those people. And the track by scent is good, but its not as versatile as the actual minor power that improves your nose. So over all you get a wide range of boosts, but none are as good as a actual minor power, and it comes with demerits. And the bear is one that actually has fewer demerits than most, after all, a bear can turn door knobs, and trapping him in a bird cage is hardly gonna work. It just feels like animal metamorphosis as a Major power is shorting the characters a bit compared to other major powers. Its kind of like if underwater abilities was a major, sure its nice to have and you can build a character around an aquatic theme but if it was a major power would you really want it when you could get something else instead?

So, does anyone else feel like animal metamorphosis would be better as a Minor, with the Major being All Animal Metamorphosis?

[RockJock]

While I do see Animal Metamorphosis as a lower end Major power I still see it as a Major. Take your bear example. You get superhuman PS, greatly enhanced endurance(1/4 the fatigue rate plus a bonus), a fairly decent SDC increase, speed increase, claws, and enhanced sense of smell. To me all of this is easily equal to say Feral plus Extraordinary PS. In my games we would also allow you to pick the type of bear, say from Monsters and Animals which gives you a few other small abilities. For example, short range night vision, better claw damage, and climbing in that form.

HU powers are always going to be unbalanced. I mean this is a game where you can roll up an immortal flying brick and a stage magician from the same main book. I tend to go out of my way to help a player who doesn't go the power route to fit the concept they want.


If you still feel it is that weak make the "any animal" option stay a major, and make the single animal a minor.

[Daniel Stoker]

I always liked the power but I get how it can seem less then a major with some of the rolls, but even still cat gets you anything from a small house cat to a siberian tiger which means you have a lot of play with what you can do from stealth to a very scary attack against many people.

My bigger issue was do you limit it to just animals that exist now or can I also go with Sabertooth tigers or for hooved animals something from the ice-age or like the aurochs for a hooved animal? I've come down both ways when playing and GMing but there are some scary animals out there even before going all the way back to Dinosaurs.


Daniel Stoker

[RockJock]

I've always allowed "Ice Age" animals, but my game world has a lost island of Pleistocene mammals, so they are sorta kinda still modern animals in or games.

One thing that isn't in the rules that I would include is needing familiarity with the specific animal. You need to know what a polar bear is to morph into one.

[Daniel Stoker]

How much though? I mean is seeing it on National Geo TV good enough or do need to really have studied the animal?


Daniel Stoker

[Razorwing]

And what of Alien animals that characters may be familiar with?

I found it odd that an Alien with this power will be limited to only animals found on Earth while creatures from its native world are prohibited (implied if not outright stated)... to say nothing of dimensional travelers from places where the "animals" can be very strange indeed.

Sure, it may take a lot more effort to deal with these kinds of creatures... especially in a interstellar game setting (Aliens Unlimited or even 3 Galaxies)... but aliens that have never been to Earth with this power should realistically not be able to transform into animals they have never seen or heard of (that is one of the few limitations the power has).

I understand that this rule was made to keep some semblance of game balance... back when there was a worry it could be too powerful, but it really doesn't make a lot of sense anymore to be so limiting.

[RockJock]

We always went with the Nat Geo level. If you want to use a tiger and the game is set in pre-columbian South America I would probably say no based on noway to be familiar with the animal.

For the alien animals my rule of thumb is what makes sense in the game? An easy way to handle it is to substitute earth animals. A Tradaxian leaper is basically a renamed leopard stat wise, but looks different.

I've also seen this powered used with the any animal metamorphosis within certain limits. An example is any African animal, do s lion or secretary bird is good, but an possum doesn't work.


This is just the way I've used the power in the pat, hardly book rules. I just think it adds to the fun of the power, and makes it worth taking.

[eliakon]

My two cents on this
1) I don't see any problem with it being a major power. It grants a number of benefits as a package deal, and offers a 'secret identity' (the animal) for free. Not to shabby. It may not be the most powerful or useful Major power, but it is still, in my opinion, to useful to relegate to the status of minor.

2) what I allow people to turn into is simple. I allow any animal that the person has some passing familiarity with themselves. Thus if the human in question has never heard of a pangolian, then no pangolians for you. This means that my animal morphers have an in character reason to be 'animal geeks'... because they want to know lots of animals so that they can use them.

3) Alien animals are just animals in my opinion. If you have familiarity with it then you can turn into it. If you don't have familiarity... then no.

These two rules eliminate the "I turn into a Tyrannosaurs Rex" or "I turn into a Sapphire Cobra" all the time issue.

[Daniel Stoker]

Sapphire Cobra?


Daniel Stoker

[Razorwing]

Hmmm... does that mean if your character is a paleontologist (the study of ancient life... often through fossils), then they should be familiar with many extinct species... depending on their specific field... yes? Thus if they had this power (with an appropriate animal class), they could use their knowledge of such ancient species to become such animals... right?

If seeing a picture of an animal in a book is good enough for modern animals... then knowing the skeletal structure and all that provides us should be enough to transform into a Wooly Mammoth or even something much older than that.

If they can make mutant dinosaur heroes for a city... then in my mind there is no reason why a mutant with an appropriate animal metamorphosis ability can't change into an actual dinosaur (one just needs a plausible reason to allow it). They are real... well... were. There are people with very intimate knowledge of what they are like (as much as can be known from what remains of them at least). There are even dinosaurs in the actual setting (mutant, yes, but still dinosaurs).

[RockJock]

Sapphire Cobra is out of one of the Phase World books.


I would probably allow an alien from a world with dinosaurs to morph into a dino(several from various games to work from), but not the average earthling. Why? Nobody has seen a real dinosaur, or seen how they run and leap. We don't even have a related animal to compare them to in most cases. We don't have a clue of things like color, and guess at what they ate via things like dental structure. A little different with say a mammoth. I've actually laid eyes on mammoth fur for example, and I know how a close relative eats and moves. That being said I'm more apt to let you become a mammoth then I am of letting you become a T-Rex based on knowledge alone.

Like I said previously, my game has a lost Ice Age island. If a character spent time there, or whatever I would definitely allow them to play a mammoth.

[eliakon]

Hmmm... does that mean if your character is a paleontologist (the study of ancient life... often through fossils), then they should be familiar with many extinct species... depending on their specific field... yes? Thus if they had this power (with an appropriate animal class), they could use their knowledge of such ancient species to become such animals... right?

Not normally no.
Not unless they have had access to actual materials beyond a couple bones that have been theoretically reconstructed.
A frozen mammoth carcass? Sure, a totally petrified dinosaur where the entire body is preserved? Go for it.
But most of what we 'know' about dinosaurs is so much conjecture and 'best guess' and inference and the like... that no, you can't use it to turn into an animal.

If seeing a picture of an animal in a book is good enough for modern animals... then knowing the skeletal structure and all that provides us should be enough to transform into a Wooly Mammoth or even something much older than that.

Which is why I don't allow a picture of an animal to be good enough.
That way leads to shenanigans and having dealt with the same shenanigans over and over I don't feel the need to wait for the players to start abusing things before going in and 'fixing' things anymore.
You have to be familiar with an animal. And that is more than "I saw a picture of it in a book"

If they can make mutant dinosaur heroes for a city... then in my mind there is no reason why a mutant with an appropriate animal metamorphosis ability can't change into an actual dinosaur (one just needs a plausible reason to allow it). They are real... well... were. There are people with very intimate knowledge of what they are like (as much as can be known from what remains of them at least). There are even dinosaurs in the actual setting (mutant, yes, but still dinosaurs).

Not really
The "dinosaurs" in the setting are not anything like dinosaurs
I mean other than the fact that they have the wrong metabolisms, wrong body structures, wrong diets, wrong lungs...oh and quite likely the wrong skins and what not.
What we DO have is some mutant animals that were built and look like an untrained artists conception of dinosaurs turned into bipeds...
That, to me, doesn't support the claim that a PC should be able to turn into a 35 ton Brontosauroid 'just because'. If that works out in your game? Great, go for it. I prefer to make it so that my players have to do in game work to get as rewards big things be it high power spells, high power weapons, advanced martial arts training... or super powerful animal forms. It makes it so that the games I run provide a specific sort of sense of achievement and measurable progress for the players.

[drewkitty ~..~]

*peeks in and just hangs a same as Eliakon Sign at my seat at the table.*

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's viability and "Minor vs major" Aspect is largely dependant on a few factors.
1) Is it just 'common modern day animals' and
2) The rather abmismal stats of animals in Palladium.

I have the monster's and animals book. Via that book a little old lady with pocket knife stands a fair chance of fighting off and killing a 800lbs tiger with little trouble.
So you kinda have to punch them up a bit to make them viable. (So that's into house rules)

As for #1 above.... we all know what/who the power is trying to replicate. A certain green hued individual under the drinking age. He could change into saber toothed tighers, Dinosaurs and on multiple occasions alien animals, demonic animals and even a dragon three or more times if memory holds.

So that's going to be a GM Call.

Personally to maintain it's major status I'd toally allow dinos and what not. But that's me. As for alien and demon versions I'd say you'd have to meet up with and get experience with them prior, but could also be viable.

[Shadowknight]

It's viability and "Minor vs major" Aspect is largely dependant on a few factors.
1) Is it just 'common modern day animals' and
2) The rather abmismal stats of animals in Palladium.

I have the monster's and animals book. Via that book a little old lady with pocket knife stands a fair chance of fighting off and killing a 800lbs tiger with little trouble.
So you kinda have to punch them up a bit to make them viable. (So that's into house rules)

As for #1 above.... we all know what/who the power is trying to replicate. A certain green hued individual under the drinking age. He could change into saber toothed tighers, Dinosaurs and on multiple occasions alien animals, demonic animals and even a dragon three or more times if memory holds.

So that's going to be a GM Call.

Personally to maintain it's major status I'd toally allow dinos and what not. But that's me. As for alien and demon versions I'd say you'd have to meet up with and get experience with them prior, but could also be viable.

Overall I agree with you, but I also think you must have some idea of the animal b4 you can transform to it. In my games I would allow someone with AM to transform into any type of bear, or if he rolled canine to any type of canine from Fox to a Dire Wolf. If that's allowed in your game the AM is truly a major Power so while it would require research on the players part and the GM to agree withe bonus the particular animal gives it well worth it for the player & GM. B4 people start talking about abuse by players lets not forget community leash laws, while a toy poodle wouldn't merit a 2nd glance in any large city in the world, a Timber Wolf or Dire Wolf will set off other dogs and cats into attacking it. Lets not forget local cops who would see a wild animals, trophy hunters, zoos and deranged millionaires who would want to capture it and breed it or eat it. So an entire adventure could be built around a careless player being captured, put in cage or spade by well meaning people. Explaining such an example to a player would make the player character very wary of going constantly in the most powerful form of the Animal. Now multiply that reaction by 5 fro a Tiger or Sabertooth Tiger or Wooly mammoth. In such a case unless combat is eminent a small House-cat makes more sense to transform into, not only it has a ready made excuse to walk into a villain warehouse or hideout without setting alarms from the villain even electronic alarms depending on sophistication might not react to them. The only problem with turning into a house-cat would be running into an animal control officer, other wild cats who won't be friendly b/c you just invade their turf or fresky male who wants to mate with you in you're a female or females if you're male, lets not forget being chase by dogs. But those are just interesting comedic turns or role-playing aspects of the power while it get embarrassing to be pregnant by the rogue Tom or chase up a tree by dogs these things will never be life threatening.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I agree that the character would need knowledge of the animal in question before turning into it. At least in some form. They wouldn't need to be able to perform bipass surgery on it or anything but you'd have to have seen a Duck before you could turn into a duck. If you'd never seen a gibbon you can't turn into one.

But as it 'is' a major power. Other than that stipulation I'd let people go wild. As it's.... a major power. It's supposed to be strong.

While the "Dog catcher" Thing is cute. These are superheros. Unless something goes dramaticly wrong (And it can) They could just revert to their human(oid) foirm and wave um off.
And I agree you don't always pick the dragon or saber toothed tiger. One of the aspect that makes this power truely a major is that you CAN turn into a house cat, or rat, or mouse, or ferret, or what have you for the infiltration/spy aspect. You could turn into a piegion. I mean some people like cats and want to pet them but how many people REALLY look at peigions, or wrens, or such?

As for myself.. I played one once and I TOTALLY Gave him the same limitation that the char this power is based off of had.

Namely that every animal my char turned into, had a single color (With some shading variations) That they were. If they were an elephant they were an elephant of this color. If they were an Aardvark, they were an aardvark of this color. If they were a cat, same color, dog, same color.

As a related aside, my favorite color is green.

[Axelmania]

Maybe "all animals" should count as 2 majors?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Not trying to be funny but....

Why?

[drewkitty ~..~]

level 5 edit

[Pepsi Jedi]

As per Canon the power has two ways to function. As turning into 'one type (Canine, feline etc)' or turning into all animals.

I'm not sure why turning into all animals should count as two majors?

[eliakon]

As per Canon the power has two ways to function. As turning into 'one type (Canine, feline etc)' or turning into all animals.

I'm not sure why turning into all animals should count as two majors?

Because you are effectively getting a huge number of Major powers.
You just won the super power lottery!
You get the Major Powers of:
AM: Canine
AM: Feline
AM: Equid
AM: Mustalid
AM: Fish
AM: crustations
AM: ursine
AM: snakes
AM: lizards
AM: Whales
AM: ...list continues on indefinitely
You just got dozens of (closely related) major powers. Why wouldn't there be a surcharge on that?

[Pepsi Jedi]

No it's an either or.

Animals via palladium rules are not that strong. An old lady or 6 year old with a kitchen knife might beat a tiger in a fight.

It's not like the stats are tht astronomical.

If you get shrink and roll the part to stop at any point along the way they don't charge you for every inch. It's just a more complete major. Matter Expulsion doesn't charge you for 400 different melee weapons you can manifest. Manifesting the weapon is one sub power. Etc

I could see it argued that Animal Metamorph into a SINGLE creature could be a minor.

But again it's pretty clear who/what this power is trying to replicate and that verdant hued hero under drinking age can turn into everything from bacteria, to dinosaurs, dragons, and even alien animals.

[eliakon]

*sigh* lets start from the top I guess...

No it's an either or.

Animals via palladium rules are not that strong. An old lady or 6 year old with a kitchen knife might beat a tiger in a fight.

No, an old lady or 6 year old is not going to do anything to a tiger other than be killed.
ESPECIALLY in HU where they have rules for people that are elderly or youths... and we see just how badly they suck for example we are informed that children under 18 are capped at 14 in all stats and may only take 2 physical skills either of which may be boxing or wrestling. Old age is also 2 physical skills and PS PE and PP are capped at 12. and of course most normal people don't even have H2H basic so they get 1 attack OR 1 dodge per melee.
Now lets look at a tiger.
Using the old 1st edition PF version (so I don't have its SDC here)
natural AR 6
8d8+6 HP
3 attacks per melee. claws do 2d6 bite does 1d10
+3 strike +4 dodge +8 damage
speed 22 (sustained) and 50 in bursts
Nightvision, climb, swim, prowl, track, and leap as natural abilities
Plus of course what ever SDC it gets in being brought into HU2 from PF1
AND this is assuming that it doesn't have stats and is just 'generic' so that it has no additional bonuses from its stats.

looking at the two I think your argument falls apart. Especially since animal metamorphosis doesn't use those stats. You use your skills, your SDC, your HP, and your stats which are modified up or down as fits. THEN you add on the various bonuses from that form on top.

I am thinking that the kid with the knife isn't much of a threat anymore.

It's not like the stats are tht astronomical.

The animals have pretty decent stats to start with and unless that is your ONLY super power and you take NO physical skills or combat skills or the like then your going to be a lot more potent.

If you get shrink and roll the part to stop at any point along the way they don't charge you for every inch. It's just a more complete major.

This is a good examples of a straw man though
Shrink doesn't have multiple DIFFERENT powers, your just getting the one identical power with varying levels of control. Its like how the different EE powers have different ranges, damages, and special effects.

Matter Expulsion doesn't charge you for 400 different melee weapons you can manifest. Manifesting the weapon is one sub power. Etc

Straw man #2 here.
There is no variation to the Matter Expulsion power.
There is no Matter Expulsion: make swords, Matter Expulsion: make pole arms, Etc with a chance to get Matter Expulsion: All Weapons.
Thus it is not the same.

To Reiterate. Animal Metamorphosis is actually a group of Major Super Powers. Each one is unique and separate from the other with little to no overlap (with one critical exception below). Thus to turn into BOTH cats and dogs you need to take the power twice. To turn into cats, dogs and birds you need to spend three Major slots... or, or you can get the final power in the group. The power that burns two Major Power slots but gives you all the other major powers in this group, and not just two but dozens. With out that you would need to buy dozens and dozens of Major Super Powers. That sounds like a premium upgrade AND it is the only power that I am aware of that works that way.

I could see it argued that Animal Metamorph into a SINGLE creature could be a minor.

Not only could I but I do. That is an option that I have allowed people in my games as a house rule yes.
But I will note that is not what this is about. This is about if the power as written should be a minor.

But again it's pretty clear who/what this power is trying to replicate and that verdant hued hero under drinking age can turn into everything from bacteria, to dinosaurs, dragons, and even alien animals.

And said person also had it as their only power. In HU you are very likely to get the "all animals" power and still have power slots left over to buy additional abilities.
If you do not do so and instead you go for the "this is my sole power" then it doesn't matter how many slots it takes because the real answer is "all of them". More to the point the list of Power Categories that only start with one Major Power as one of the options are
Alien (1 major 1 minor; 1 major 3 minor; 1 major 2 minor; Continuous mutation)

Experiment (1 major 3 minor, 1 major 2 minor, 1 major 1d4+1 psionic abilities)

Enchanted Weapon (1 Major 1 Minor and either magic spells or 2 more minor abilities; Plus six selections from the weapon powers; plus see invisible; plus either 2d6x10 or 2d5x10 SDC plus saving throw bonuses; plus weapons of order provided half damage from heat/cold)

Enchanted Object (1 Major Plus +2 to saves vs all magic + 1d4x10 SDC plus a roll on the special ability table) plus 2d6x10+90 PPE)

Mutant (1 Major 3 minor; 1 major 2 minor; continuous mutation)

Empowered (assuming your GM would allow you to take Animal Metamorphosis as your compensation in the first place) (1 major 2 minor; 1 major 3 minor)

2% of Animal Gestalts (1 major of choice)

Imbued (please note that the power category itself explicitly states that not all imbued are equal and some are weaker than others: (1 major 1 minor, 1 major 2 minor, 1 major 3 minor)

Immortals are a sub set, however the Godling and Demon Lord can start with 1 major power. In addition to the vast array of powers inherent to all immortals and to the particular type of immortal they can roll up:
1 major, 2 minor
1 major or 2 minor and additional powers as they age
1 major plus 2d4+2 minor psi and 1d6x10+60 ISP
1 major 1 minor and 1d4+3 minor psi from one category and 1d4x10+40+ME ISP
1 Major 4 Minor
1 Major 1 minor plus 8 spells level 1-5 and 5 spells level 7-9 2d4x10+20 PPE

Which looks like a pretty impressive list until we note a few things
1) other than mystic objects and plant gestalts every other category has options that provide 2+ majors
2) this assumes that the GM is making the player roll on the power table, even though a person may wish to be building a specific character
3) most of the above are choices not rolls, meaning that you have to deliberately make it impossible to get the unlimited version of Animal Metamorphosis to not be able to get it. Which I have no problem with in the least.
4) Every option above grants you additional powers meaning that you will not miss out on playing the green guy because your already starting out with more powers and abilities.
6) It assumes that your GM will not allow you to take the results of the roll anyway even though you only have 1 slot not 2.
5) it also assumes that your GM is not willing to let you trade in some of your other abilities (or all of them) to get unlimited metamorphosis so that you can play the character you desire.

Now I guess, if you are in a game where every single thing about the game is run on chance, no one is allowed to pick anything and the exact RAW is used with the GM being allowed no discretion at all then you run the risk that you might not be able to build the green guy. At that point though I would have to ask why you are trying to build a specific character with a specific desired power in a totally randomized game.

[Axelmania]

Because you are effectively getting a huge number of Major powers.
You just won the super power lottery!
You get the Major Powers of:
AM: Canine
AM: Feline
AM: Equid
AM: Mustalid
AM: Fish
AM: crustations
AM: ursine
AM: snakes
AM: lizards
AM: Whales
AM: ...list continues on indefinitely
You just got dozens of (closely related) major powers. Why wouldn't there be a surcharge on that?

My thoughts exactly. Isn't this like Control Elemental Force: All 4 elements? Could've sworn I saw that floating around in an old HU book somewhere.

[Pepsi Jedi]

*sigh* lets start from the top I guess...

No it's an either or.

Animals via palladium rules are not that strong. An old lady or 6 year old with a kitchen knife might beat a tiger in a fight.

No, an old lady or 6 year old is not going to do anything to a tiger other than be killed.

They'll do ok. You're adding alot of stipulations to get to where you want to go.

ESPECIALLY in HU where they have rules for people that are elderly or youths... and we see just how badly they suck for example we are informed that children under 18 are capped at 14 in all stats and may only take 2 physical skills either of which may be boxing or wrestling. Old age is also 2 physical skills and PS PE and PP are capped at 12. and of course most normal people don't even have H2H basic so they get 1 attack OR 1 dodge per melee.

This is where your 'counter' starts to fall apart. HU you get 2 attacks for living. Commonly known as the "Two attacks for living rule" on top of which you get hand to hand. Of wich many people DO have even if only at basic. Both my sons started marital arts at 6. My daughter will be starting at 4. old people can also have an entire life to have picked up hand to hand basic, if not have it at higher levels. I.E. even more attacks.

Now lets look at a tiger.
Using the old 1st edition PF version (so I don't have its SDC here)
natural AR 6
8d8+6 HP
3 attacks per melee. claws do 2d6 bite does 1d10
+3 strike +4 dodge +8 damage
speed 22 (sustained) and 50 in bursts
Nightvision, climb, swim, prowl, track, and leap as natural abilities
Plus of course what ever SDC it gets in being brought into HU2 from PF1
AND this is assuming that it doesn't have stats and is just 'generic' so that it has no additional bonuses from its stats.

What sort of additional bonuses are you thinking for a tiger? An Occupational character class?

looking at the two I think your argument falls apart.

It really doesn't. It only looks like that if you heavily penalize and ignore the kid or the old woman and what they would actually have by speculating that they don't indeed have that. They are both going to have 2-4 attacks, the tiger has 3. So at most it has one attack bonus over the humans.

The tiger has more damage than the kitchen knife at 2D6 over 1D6. But it's not like a game ender. It would depend on the kid and the old lady, and the rolls. You get a kid with HTHMartal arts and it's alot more equal. An old lady with 10 levels of hand to hand basic and it's going to look alot different too. That kid COULd have taken the physical skills to boost him as well. You're engineering the conflict for the results you want to present.

Especially since animal metamorphosis doesn't use those stats. You use your skills, your SDC, your HP, and your stats which are modified up or down as fits. THEN you add on the various bonuses from that form on top.

Key part of THAT being that they're modified up or down, depending on the animal. You don't get to be a frog that hits with the strength of a tank. But then that wasn't the hypothetical. I was pointing out that as presented, animals in Palladium weren't some end all of amazingness. If anything, holding onto your own SDC and hit points would likely hamper you in many cases.

(And for the record, the knife fight with the old lady vs tiger was meant to be a bit hyperbollic, not 100% literal. though even in full literal sense, it's not as one sided as you're attempting to desperately make out)

I am thinking that the kid with the knife isn't much of a threat anymore.

Depends on a lot of things. As presented your tiger might have 14 hit points. That's three hits from the kid if he rolls well. Kid gets inits, he could drop the tiger before the tiger dropped him. Depending on rolls. And yes, that would imply that the kid is rolling great, but still. if the kid had boxing, that's one melee and a kid with a kitchen knife could kill a tiger. (And yes I'm aware that would be on the 'weak' end of tiger, but it's still possible)

It's not like the stats are tht astronomical.

The animals have pretty decent stats to start with and unless that is your ONLY super power and you take NO physical skills or combat skills or the like then your going to be a lot more potent

Ehh. Not really that much. Your pysicals are replaced. Unless you choose a tiger or a dinosaur, the stats (other than perhaps speed) are going to be below super hero norm.

If you get shrink and roll the part to stop at any point along the way they don't charge you for every inch. It's just a more complete major.

This is a good examples of a straw man though
Shrink doesn't have multiple DIFFERENT powers, your just getting the one identical power with varying levels of control. Its like how the different EE powers have different ranges, damages, and special effects.

Dwarfing is shrink, but only half way. But shrink doesn't give you shrink and dwarfing. There's different versions of shrink and different minimums as well but if you have the smallest you don't get charged for multiple powers of the other sizes.

Animal metamorph is the same way. There's different versions. Some versions you transform into one type of animal, and the other, you can transform into any animal

Matter Expulsion doesn't charge you for 400 different melee weapons you can manifest. Manifesting the weapon is one sub power. Etc

Straw man #2 here.

Not at all though people like to throw it up like a shield

There is no variation to the Matter Expulsion power.
There is no Matter Expulsion: make swords, Matter Expulsion: make pole arms, Etc with a chance to get Matter Expulsion: All Weapons.
Thus it is not the same.

It's exactly the same. It says you can create weapons. Just like in animal metamorph, one of the option is 'Animals"

It doesn't let you turn into a fish, and then a space ship. It lets you turn into different "Animals" just like the Matter expulsion lets you create "Weapons"

Now it COULD be argued that 'Dinosaurs' or 'alien animals' might be a differenent power, but "Animals" no.

To Reiterate. Animal Metamorphosis is actually a group of Major Super Powers.

No it's one major power. The ability to turn into animals. Some are just better at it than others.

Each one is unique and separate from the other with little to no overlap (with one critical exception below). Thus to turn into BOTH cats and dogs you need to take the power twice. To turn into cats, dogs and birds you need to spend three Major slots... or, or you can get the final power in the group. The power that burns two Major Power slots but gives you all the other major powers in this group, and not just two but dozens. With out that you would need to buy dozens and dozens of Major Super Powers. That sounds like a premium upgrade AND it is the only power that I am aware of that works that way.

Not at all. It's just luck of the draw/ or build of the character. just like not every mutant has the absolute maximum of powers. Some have a few minor. Some have one major. Some jhave one major and a few minor and some have two majors.

Same thing here. Some Animal metamorphs are limited. Some less so. It's still one power. Same as the mutants that roll a few minors are still mutants alongside the one with the majors.

I could see it argued that Animal Metamorph into a SINGLE creature could be a minor.

Not only could I but I do. That is an option that I have allowed people in my games as a house rule yes.
But I will note that is not what this is about. This is about if the power as written should be a minor.

Actually what we're discussing is "As written should it be more than one MAJOR" But I agree that Animal Metamporph (One type) should be a minor.

But again it's pretty clear who/what this power is trying to replicate and that verdant hued hero under drinking age can turn into everything from bacteria, to dinosaurs, dragons, and even alien animals.

And said person also had it as their only power.

And? Many in HU could havet his as their only power.

In HU you are very likely to get the "all animals" power and still have power slots left over to buy additional abilities.

Not really. Infact you're very UNLIKELY to get "All the animals" it's a 1 in 10 chance, Infact less than that. Most power categories that have powers have options where you don't even get a major so you might not even get the 'chance' to get this one.

IF you get a major, and IF you get Animal metamorph it's still a 1 in 10 chance. Which is funny because cats get like 15% and dogs 15% while most others get the 10%.

But at absolute best it's a 10% chance. Pretty small.

If you do not do so and instead you go for the "this is my sole power" then it doesn't matter how many slots it takes because the real answer is "all of them". More to the point the list of Power Categories that only start with one Major Power as one of the options are
Alien (1 major 1 minor; 1 major 3 minor; 1 major 2 minor; Continuous mutation)

Experiment (1 major 3 minor, 1 major 2 minor, 1 major 1d4+1 psionic abilities)

Enchanted Weapon (1 Major 1 Minor and either magic spells or 2 more minor abilities; Plus six selections from the weapon powers; plus see invisible; plus either 2d6x10 or 2d5x10 SDC plus saving throw bonuses; plus weapons of order provided half damage from heat/cold)

Enchanted Object (1 Major Plus +2 to saves vs all magic + 1d4x10 SDC plus a roll on the special ability table) plus 2d6x10+90 PPE)

Mutant (1 Major 3 minor; 1 major 2 minor; continuous mutation)

Empowered (assuming your GM would allow you to take Animal Metamorphosis as your compensation in the first place) (1 major 2 minor; 1 major 3 minor)

2% of Animal Gestalts (1 major of choice)

Imbued (please note that the power category itself explicitly states that not all imbued are equal and some are weaker than others: (1 major 1 minor, 1 major 2 minor, 1 major 3 minor)

Immortals are a sub set, however the Godling and Demon Lord can start with 1 major power. In addition to the vast array of powers inherent to all immortals and to the particular type of immortal they can roll up:
1 major, 2 minor
1 major or 2 minor and additional powers as they age
1 major plus 2d4+2 minor psi and 1d6x10+60 ISP
1 major 1 minor and 1d4+3 minor psi from one category and 1d4x10+40+ME ISP
1 Major 4 Minor
1 Major 1 minor plus 8 spells level 1-5 and 5 spells level 7-9 2d4x10+20 PPE

Which looks like a pretty impressive list until we note a few things
1) other than mystic objects and plant gestalts every other category has options that provide 2+ majors
2) this assumes that the GM is making the player roll on the power table, even though a person may wish to be building a specific character
3) most of the above are choices not rolls, meaning that you have to deliberately make it impossible to get the unlimited version of Animal Metamorphosis to not be able to get it. Which I have no problem with in the least.
4) Every option above grants you additional powers meaning that you will not miss out on playing the green guy because your already starting out with more powers and abilities.
6) It assumes that your GM will not allow you to take the results of the roll anyway even though you only have 1 slot not 2.
5) it also assumes that your GM is not willing to let you trade in some of your other abilities (or all of them) to get unlimited metamorphosis so that you can play the character you desire.

Now I guess, if you are in a game where every single thing about the game is run on chance, no one is allowed to pick anything and the exact RAW is used with the GM being allowed no discretion at all then you run the risk that you might not be able to build the green guy. At that point though I would have to ask why you are trying to build a specific character with a specific desired power in a totally randomized game.

Sadly I'm heading out in a few minutes and have neither the time nor inclination to double check the last bit there.

As you said, it wouldn't matter in a random sense. the green guy has more than the one power though. It's just his 'signature' power. Typically he turns into some sort of earth animal, but he can also
2) Turn into extinct animals. Saber toothed tigers, and dinosaurs being common. (Could be argued as still earth animals)
3) Turn into alien animals. (exhibited multiple times)

Now those could be seen as the extension of Animal metamorph but.. the following, would most certainly need their own separate powers.

4) Turn into mythical beasts ( Different dragons multiple times) (We don't have this power but it would basicly be 'Metamorphisis dragon)

And

5) Lycanthrope. (He's turned into a werewolf multiple times

and

6) "The Hybrid" where he ... derp.. Hybridizes, and takes on the abilities of many or 'all' of the animals at once. (Could be replicated by "Monsterous form" power out of PU1 or 3, I forget)


So looking at that, even if you combine the first three (Normal animals, dinos, and alien animals) ... and for the record. I personally do..

You'd still need three more powers, all majors (Or the equivalent) to replicate the verdant skinned under aged hero.

So the "Only one major, so he'd HAVE to have more powers" part of the debate falls flat too.

[The Beast]

*sigh* lets start from the top I guess...

No it's an either or.

Animals via palladium rules are not that strong. An old lady or 6 year old with a kitchen knife might beat a tiger in a fight.

No, an old lady or 6 year old is not going to do anything to a tiger other than be killed.
ESPECIALLY in HU where they have rules for people that are elderly or youths... and we see just how badly they suck for example we are informed that children under 18 are capped at 14 in all stats and may only take 2 physical skills either of which may be boxing or wrestling. Old age is also 2 physical skills and PS PE and PP are capped at 12. and of course most normal people don't even have H2H basic so they get 1 attack OR 1 dodge per melee.
Now lets look at a tiger.
Using the old 1st edition PF version (so I don't have its SDC here)
natural AR 6
8d8+6 HP
3 attacks per melee. claws do 2d6 bite does 1d10
+3 strike +4 dodge +8 damage
speed 22 (sustained) and 50 in bursts
Nightvision, climb, swim, prowl, track, and leap as natural abilities
Plus of course what ever SDC it gets in being brought into HU2 from PF1
AND this is assuming that it doesn't have stats and is just 'generic' so that it has no additional bonuses from its stats.

2nd Ed Monsters & Animals has tigers in it:

SDC = 4d6+30
HP = 4D6+24
APM = 4
Init = +3
Strike = +5
Parry/Dodge = +4
vs HF = +7
Claws = 2d6+8
Bite = 2d6+2

There are no stats listed of any kind, so that's it on the bonuses.

[Nightmartree]

My thoughts exactly. Isn't this like Control Elemental Force: All 4 elements? Could've sworn I saw that floating around in an old HU book somewhere.

yep, I have that book, in the time when you only got 1 power and majors and minors weren't divided, you have energy expulsion? great! under water abilities? (better hope its raining hard when they rob that bank, and don't go inside!) or hey lets control all 4 of the elementals powers listed as their own thing!

also in a normal campaign on earth HU style (no dinos/aliens animals to be found, normal people don't meet those on every street corner) i'd say its a minor (excluding animals all). Though really close to a major, if only because of its versatility. I just don't feel like the normal earth animals compare well to the super powers in most cases, even if the animal provides bonuses about the biggest and scariest thing I can think of in modern times would be either a great cat or a grizzly/Kodiak bear, one of the big ones. Maybe a crocodile/alligator or rhino but you can't even shapeshift into a pachyderm from what I recall from the list unless you get animals all, which Is for sure a major. And I just don't feel that one of those is quite a major, most of the animals are either large and for combat (and lose out to other combat heroes) or small and better for stealth/recon (a better use, but you could get invisibility, shrinking, intangibility, nightstalker, or a good prowl too...though you couldn't rock those feathers as a peacock later). But i'd like to meet the goon who doesn't get suspicious when they're facing "The Mighty Hoof" a hero with shapeshift to hooved animals and that miniature goat is lurking around you HQ...(i'm actually assuming miniature goats exist...I couldn't think of anything small and stealthy in the hooved category)

All of that said if you are in a space campaign and have access to alien animals who fall into your category? i'd say it should be allowed, though you'd have to find animals who fit your category, in this case it fits a major far better because of the variety and lethality we all love to give to random space critter Z, and hey it just happens to be a mustelid! and about dinos...didn't scientists categorize them as their own thing? like warm blooded cousins to reptiles? So that unless you specifically had Animal metamorphosis: Dino I don't think they count in most cases.

[eliakon]

But again it's pretty clear who/what this power is trying to replicate and that verdant hued hero under drinking age can turn into everything from bacteria, to dinosaurs, dragons, and even alien animals.

And said person also had it as their only power.

And? Many in HU could havet his as their only power.

In HU you are very likely to get the "all animals" power and still have power slots left over to buy additional abilities.

Not really. Infact you're very UNLIKELY to get "All the animals" it's a 1 in 10 chance, Infact less than that. Most power categories that have powers have options where you don't even get a major so you might not even get the 'chance' to get this one.

IF you get a major, and IF you get Animal metamorph it's still a 1 in 10 chance. Which is funny because cats get like 15% and dogs 15% while most others get the 10%.

But at absolute best it's a 10% chance. Pretty small.

And yet again I ask why are you rolling randomly to try and build a specific character that requires a specific set of powers and a specific education and skill selection and equipment...
That is sort of a text book example of "Talk to your GM about getting a variance to policy in the name of fun"

If you do not do so and instead you go for the "this is my sole power" then it doesn't matter how many slots it takes because the real answer is "all of them". More to the point the list of Power Categories that only start with one Major Power as one of the options are
Alien (1 major 1 minor; 1 major 3 minor; 1 major 2 minor; Continuous mutation)

Experiment (1 major 3 minor, 1 major 2 minor, 1 major 1d4+1 psionic abilities)

Enchanted Weapon (1 Major 1 Minor and either magic spells or 2 more minor abilities; Plus six selections from the weapon powers; plus see invisible; plus either 2d6x10 or 2d5x10 SDC plus saving throw bonuses; plus weapons of order provided half damage from heat/cold)

Enchanted Object (1 Major Plus +2 to saves vs all magic + 1d4x10 SDC plus a roll on the special ability table) plus 2d6x10+90 PPE)

Mutant (1 Major 3 minor; 1 major 2 minor; continuous mutation)

Empowered (assuming your GM would allow you to take Animal Metamorphosis as your compensation in the first place) (1 major 2 minor; 1 major 3 minor)

2% of Animal Gestalts (1 major of choice)

Imbued (please note that the power category itself explicitly states that not all imbued are equal and some are weaker than others: (1 major 1 minor, 1 major 2 minor, 1 major 3 minor)

Immortals are a sub set, however the Godling and Demon Lord can start with 1 major power. In addition to the vast array of powers inherent to all immortals and to the particular type of immortal they can roll up:
1 major, 2 minor
1 major or 2 minor and additional powers as they age
1 major plus 2d4+2 minor psi and 1d6x10+60 ISP
1 major 1 minor and 1d4+3 minor psi from one category and 1d4x10+40+ME ISP
1 Major 4 Minor
1 Major 1 minor plus 8 spells level 1-5 and 5 spells level 7-9 2d4x10+20 PPE

Which looks like a pretty impressive list until we note a few things
1) other than mystic objects and plant gestalts every other category has options that provide 2+ majors
2) this assumes that the GM is making the player roll on the power table, even though a person may wish to be building a specific character
3) most of the above are choices not rolls, meaning that you have to deliberately make it impossible to get the unlimited version of Animal Metamorphosis to not be able to get it. Which I have no problem with in the least.
4) Every option above grants you additional powers meaning that you will not miss out on playing the green guy because your already starting out with more powers and abilities.
6) It assumes that your GM will not allow you to take the results of the roll anyway even though you only have 1 slot not 2.
5) it also assumes that your GM is not willing to let you trade in some of your other abilities (or all of them) to get unlimited metamorphosis so that you can play the character you desire.

Now I guess, if you are in a game where every single thing about the game is run on chance, no one is allowed to pick anything and the exact RAW is used with the GM being allowed no discretion at all then you run the risk that you might not be able to build the green guy. At that point though I would have to ask why you are trying to build a specific character with a specific desired power in a totally randomized game.

Sadly I'm heading out in a few minutes and have neither the time nor inclination to double check the last bit there.

As you said, it wouldn't matter in a random sense. the green guy has more than the one power though. It's just his 'signature' power. Typically he turns into some sort of earth animal, but he can also
2) Turn into extinct animals. Saber toothed tigers, and dinosaurs being common. (Could be argued as still earth animals)
3) Turn into alien animals. (exhibited multiple times)

Now those could be seen as the extension of Animal metamorph but.. the following, would most certainly need their own separate powers.

4) Turn into mythical beasts ( Different dragons multiple times) (We don't have this power but it would basicly be 'Metamorphisis dragon)

And

5) Lycanthrope. (He's turned into a werewolf multiple times

and

6) "The Hybrid" where he ... derp.. Hybridizes, and takes on the abilities of many or 'all' of the animals at once. (Could be replicated by "Monsterous form" power out of PU1 or 3, I forget)


So looking at that, even if you combine the first three (Normal animals, dinos, and alien animals) ... and for the record. I personally do..

You'd still need three more powers, all majors (Or the equivalent) to replicate the verdant skinned under aged hero.

So the "Only one major, so he'd HAVE to have more powers" part of the debate falls flat too.

It now goes the other way.
Four+ Majors
Oh, and the ludicrous levels of stat boosts (strength, endurance, probably healing factor since those animals are insanely strong for their type)
I might be wrong... but I don't think that it is possible to build such a character legally in the HU system. Which isn't a bug, its a feature. If your group wants to have an expy of one or more characcters that's great. Your group can do what your group wants. But it is almost assuredly going to require working with the GM and not rolling anything but instead just arbitrarily assigning things.
Even if you just want to play a character that is a homage and thus just has say a particular signiture power... your still probably going to need to work with the GM so that what the power does is what your group wants since in most cases the book version isn't going to be quite what your looking for.
Frankly this is why it says repeatedly "roll or pick" on the tables. Because some times your back story requires that your character be a street kid, or a PhD, or what ever. Because sometimes you want to play a Mutant or a Super Soldier. Because some times you want to play a person with shadow powers, or fire powers, or electrical powers. This is all fine. It really is. You just work it out with your GM and say "Hey, I really want to play this person. Here is the backstory and summery. To do it I need to take choice X here and Y there and these specific Zs over here." Then the GM either says "Sure, this looks fun, lets do it." or "No everyone must play totally random characters in this game" or "Hmmm, this looks pretty good... but this, this and this are a bit iffy for me I'll need some more justification. And this, this and this, are just out sorry." or whatever and you start negotiating.

[Axelmania]

My thoughts exactly. Isn't this like Control Elemental Force: All 4 elements? Could've sworn I saw that floating around in an old HU book somewhere.

yep, I have that book, in the time when you only got 1 power and majors and minors weren't divided, you have energy expulsion? great! under water abilities? (better hope its raining hard when they rob that bank, and don't go inside!) or hey lets control all 4 of the elementals powers listed as their own thing!

Apparently this was in page 108 of the original HU in the 80s, was taken out in the revised early 90s edition.

[Nightmartree]

My thoughts exactly. Isn't this like Control Elemental Force: All 4 elements? Could've sworn I saw that floating around in an old HU book somewhere.

yep, I have that book, in the time when you only got 1 power and majors and minors weren't divided, you have energy expulsion? great! under water abilities? (better hope its raining hard when they rob that bank, and don't go inside!) or hey lets control all 4 of the elementals powers listed as their own thing!

Apparently this was in page 108 of the original HU in the 80s, was taken out in the revised early 90s edition.

i have 3 books from 3 different periods of heroes unlimited...psychics still read the same

[Axelmania]

Psychics? What about CEF?

[Nightmartree]

Psychics? What about CEF?

CEF?

[eliakon]

Psychics? What about CEF?

CEF?

Control Elemental Force.
It used to be one power, now it is four separate powers.
of course back then you only got one power anyway so...

[Nightmartree]

Psychics? What about CEF?

CEF?

Control Elemental Force.
It used to be one power, now it is four separate powers.
of course back then you only got one power anyway so...

Oh that's what I was saying CEF is now 4 powers and you used to get only one. While being a psychic is pretty much (or is exactly...there may be a few things different but I can't think of any besides expanded powers list) the same. Everything has been changed or updated in some way but psychics are still the same. Its why I started to build a psychic avatar/power armor thing for rifts, give them something that can shine on its own instead of every monster and high powered entity getting a few psychic powers as an aside.

Not saying Psionics is weak, just that in a lot of cases it feels like it lacks impact compared to how extreme everything else can get.

[Daniel Stoker]

Eh, psionics used to be much worse with a much more limited amount of powers you could get with the natural limited to 3 major and 6 minors and no more powers as you leveled. I still think they totally need to revamp the ISP regen system for Heroes though.


Daniel Stoker

[Nightmartree]

Eh, psionics used to be much worse with a much more limited amount of powers you could get with the natural limited to 3 major and 6 minors and no more powers as you leveled. I still think they totally need to revamp the ISP regen system for Heroes though.


Daniel Stoker

Alright so its better than i thought, but I still feel like their direct combat is a bit weak. Then again who knows I could be missing the big obvious destroy everyone power of psionics...or it could just be no one in my group makes it to high enough lvl to get to use them to that degree.

Though i will say their non-combat can be great in terrible ways if your GM allows. Mind bond, mentally possess others and mind wipe allows you to control a person, know everything they do and erase the memories of the bond from them, preventing them from having information from your mind (if your GM allows). But i just feel like they have potential that isnt being used for combat or other wise...its all focused on the astral and doing things there...

idk thinking about it they can cover most bases of thing, at least if you go find the exact OCC from other books.. but i still just can't stop feeling they fall a bit short of all the other power sources, Tech, Magic, Mutation, or Supernatural all feel like they are a step or two ahead unless you go play in the psychics backyard of the astral, then suddenly psychics can do all sorts of special things but they immediately lose that cool when you return to reality.

and i'm gonna stop there cause this is neither a topic for heroes unlimited or about the origin of this thread.

[Daniel Stoker]

It depends on the magic too. I think casters are still hobbled though like with Psionics I think the PPE regen needs to be boosted, though magic users can at least make use of Ley Lines or talismans to help them out there some. Psionics does have issues with combat though depending on how your GM works it some powers like TK Super can be a major PITA as there's technically no save against them just lifting you someone and holding them in the air or just spinning them around like a top till they puke their guts out.


Daniel Stoker

[Coffee Zombie]

I've been eyeballing recently and bestowing an extra Minor on heroes who pick one of the less optimal Major Powers. If you get the top result for Animal Metamorphosis, it's worthwhile, but limited to one animal type? It's not bad, but it doesn't stack up against some of the other majors in terms of utility. You get good bonuses from becoming an animal, sure, but then you consider the downsides (you're an animal, can't pick up objects, etc.).

One extra minor is a good balance, and as a GM I can just eyeball the addition when I look a the full power load out. I would then specify that minor needs to be thematically associated with the Animal Metamorphosis power.