Open request for official Update

[wilycoyote]

Sorry Morgan, I tried, I really did but after three updates about nothing something has to be said here.

It is now four years (Kevin, Wayne, Chuck , Scott et al take note) since the original estimated delivery date for this project for which Palladium Books took in over $1.44 million. It does beggar belief that this has still not been delivered, even moreso if yu accept wave 1 was sent out what some three years ago, since then nada.

What are we being told, oh we have some Force Organisations to go out after playtesting - I scratch my head in disbelief as to why this was not done at the project inception. Oh to add salt to already open wounds this OOB's have units from Wave 2.....Have you never seen Mike's work, course you did he sent them to you and they are widely available on the net.

Wait there is more we have renders - not the manufactured pieces - of the custom bases. what you expect people to have kept unassembled models just so they can base them on these generic "spacy" things - note to PB check out the many independent manufacturers who already can supply bases that are simply superior to this amatuer effort. Also, are we to belive a professional sculptor took months to produce these?

So what does it boil down to? Simply no manufacturer has been signed up to - despite claims four months ago after Gencom that the choice was down to two. We are fast approaching Xmas, followed by the Chinese New Year - yes it does happen every year - and so the chances are very slim that any form of manufacture will begin before Q2 2018. Therefore using Wave 1 as a rough guide, the US backers might get their wave 2, all things going exceedingly well, by the end of next year. However, as for the rest of us it will be 2019 or shall we say six years late?

Face the music, Palladium - and especially Kevin - this has been a total failure and you know it has. Time to go public, declare it and refund the backers - oh and sight of the accounting for the $1.44 million as well for good measure.

You have chosen to completely wreck any chance of trust you might have engenderd in a potential hard spending audience of over 5400 gamers and effectively ensured that all but a handful will never buy from you again and in many cases are prepared to let the rest of the gaming world know what they feel about you (clue it is not positive) and any projects you are even slightly involved in.

In the spirit of fair play and show I am not totally vindictive ,I will ask that you post a rebuttal of the comments above , proving actual progress towards wave 2 and if that proves me wrong I will be happy to publically apologise.

[Morgan Vening]

Sorry Morgan, I tried, I really did but after three updates about nothing something has to be said here.

Hey, it wasn't meant as a perpetual abstinence. I just wanted to test the theory that this place is pretty much dead for any kind of conversation. That your post is literally the first post in four weeks since your last post, proves it.

Wait there is more we have renders - not the manufactured pieces - of the custom bases. what you expect people to have kept unassembled models just so they can base them on these generic "spacy" things - note to PB check out the many independent manufacturers who already can supply bases that are simply superior to this amatuer effort. Also, are we to belive a professional sculptor took months to produce these?

Yeah, even though Scott did mention that the sculptor was busy with other work, it should not take 3 months to go from first draft to second draft, especially given that there's not much to them. Tiny World, Forgecraft, and Back2Base-ix all offer comparable pricing for something that looks substantially better, is much more varied, and is available now. And again, I think the ID tag is a bad idea. With the other bases, you rotate them 60, 90, 180 degrees, and it can kind of look like a different base. With the ID tag, you're locked into always having the same orientation, and with the inability to easily repose the miniatures due to their construction, it's going to look very samey.

So what does it boil down to? Simply no manufacturer has been signed up to - despite claims four months ago after Gencom that the choice was down to two. We are fast approaching Xmas, followed by the Chinese New Year - yes it does happen every year - and so the chances are very slim that any form of manufacture will begin before Q2 2018. Therefore using Wave 1 as a rough guide, the US backers might get their wave 2, all things going exceedingly well, by the end of next year. However, as for the rest of us it will be 2019 or shall we say six years late?

Remember, that Wave 2 constitutes approximately twice as many individual sculpts as Wave 1, and that it's the prototyping, printing, mold production and approval process that takes the most time. It took 6+ months (Dec 31st 2013 - July 4th 2014) to do all that, and that's not accounting for work done prior to seeing the first PPP.

It took no more than 4 months (June 13th start, to last container being ready before October 17th) to actually manufacture everything.

Yes, there are less actual models that need pressing (ie, a BC needed 8 pressings of the Battlepods, and 5 pressings of the Valk F/G sprues), but the math doesn't look good. Doubling the development and halving the production (and tacking on a month for freight) puts it at significantly more than the 9 months the previous version took. Sure, there might be some ways to reduce that from the 15 months that it calculates out to be, but it's still looking to be substantially longer than the previous iteration, unless they cut some SERIOUS corners.

That's what makes the lack of anything meaningful from the Updates so frustrating. The clock is looking to be a year or so, best case scenario. And the clock hasn't started yet. Now it's possible that there's more being worked on than has been said, but that goes against the multiple assertions that they'll show us more when there's something to show. We know they can show us parts breakdowns (last seen 30 months ago), we know they can show us PPP's (last seen 18 months ago), we know they can show us digital sculpts in progress (as evidenced by the bases, Objectives 1 and ZInf). That the majority of things haven't been shown at all, and that no manufacturer has been announced, indicates they're holding back on what was promised, or that EOY2018 to begin domestic shipping is probably already a longshot.

Happy to be proven wrong.

[LtPebbles]

I'd like to see a plan from PB on how they are going to finish this and put the KS to bed.

Maybe less sculpts and a partial fulfillment? Pro-rated refunds or additional core boxes?

Because at this rate, Wave 2 - as listed - is not happening and will not happen. And anything would be better than nothing. And more than that, this travesty needs to come to an end.

[wilycoyote]

Lt pebbles, I have to agree with all that you have said.

At this point , we are effectively looking at a project that has failed to deliver and yjerefore if, a big if, palladium are finally going to deliver there has to be a concrete plan of how this will be achieved. In fairness , this is something that given his high hopes six months ago and the fact that Scott is the Business Manager that he must make public as soon as possible - preferably the end of the year.

Morgan, is right as well, my estimates are very much on the glass half full side, reality is that this is likely to be more like six years late for US backers and for the rest of us.......

The dream has put forward by PB is dead, the game is dead, it is time they admitted it and declared it officially dead - Monty Python's dead parrot sketch sums it up - and simply refund the backers, draw a line under it and most likely never stray into the miniatures side of gaming again

[Morgan Vening]

I am really looking forward to being told that 2020 is going to be the year RRT will be relaunched with wave 2.

Are you meaning that that's the next revised date, or are you ignoring the expected "2018 is the year for Robotech" and "2019 is the year for Robotech".

I do like Scott's initial Kickstarter Update said 2017 was possible. And here we are six months later, and there's been no appreciable publicly shown information that there's been ANY movement on that front. Meaning mid 2018 isn't looking likely, and honestly, EOY 2018 isn't looking much better.

[wilycoyote]

Well I am nothing if not a realist and given the absolute lack of progress evn getting a manufacturer to start the tooling of anything then as a non US backer I can confidentely say that I will see nothing in 2018. So this project, which was exceedingly well funded for a miniatures game, will be over six years late

The really sad , frustrating, down right annoying part of this , is simply the complete disregard kevin and his company (make that HIS) have towards the people who gave them money and initially overwhelming support to get this off the ground. it would be unliley that RTT would have gone to WH40k or X Wing status but it would have had a solid core of gamers to work with and expoand the experience.

Instead what we got was someone who simply cannot keep to a schedule or keep his word - yes Kevin I am talking about you.

Update 186 confirmed that the sculpts were in China to be tooled and worked on - also confirmed in several earlier updates and is still shown on the RTT resources page here. Point of order, this is an obvious lie which is simply evidenced by your own words. This has never been retracted and no explanation for the change (presumably the contract lapsed?) and certany no apologies have been made to the backers.

This year we have had a lot of huff and puff about quotes, renders of stuff already posted and let us not forget the draft OOB and less than stellar bases. Oh I also forgot PB also got a Business Manager to keep things on track - his performance review would read at the very best,much work harder but overall very disappointing.

The other "highlight" of the year was PB actually stirring themselves into a bit of enthusiasm, unfortunately for a game made by another company - need to get Jesse Ventura to check that conspiracy. The fallout from that was an unjustified vilafication of the RTT backers,

What now?

Nothing would be my best guess, PB and Kevin know , as do the majority of backers, that this project is an abject failure and they cannot deliver on their promises. I mean does anyone really think this game as it stands is alive and viable? So why not simply fess up and say so.

My best guess , which is also the reason we never got wave 2, is money. The PB account is empty ,the KS funds frittered away by false starts and bad business calls. fair enough, that crap happens and you have to be a big boy and grow up.

However, there is also another point to this, if this has failed then Kevin will need to explain himself and then have to find the way to refund the RTT backers. Possibly, having to admit he failed might be the one jump Kevin is not prepared to make.

Okay, I have been a bit scathing in this post, but hey it is nearly five years since I stumped up money. so I believe my voice and likley many others need to be heard here and someone at palladium needs to grow a pair and give us all straight answers.

[Alpha 11]

Sad to say, I think they just need to find someone to do a halfway good job on the minis, get then done, and just drop it. I don't want that to happen, but with what has happen, they would be lucky to get half of the people to back RTT going any further. Man I really wanted the Invid and Masters in all this.

[Morgan Vening]

Sad to say, I think they just need to find someone to do a halfway good job on the minis, get then done, and just drop it. I don't want that to happen, but with what has happen, they would be lucky to get half of the people to back RTT going any further. Man I really wanted the Invid and Masters in all this.

Why? There's no rush. Apparently.

Despite there being zero evidence anything has actually progressed since Scott took over the project. Heck, prior to GenCon, they had "reviewed the quotes and pared down the selection to our top candidates for the job. We are looking forward to reviewing their manufacturing samples and terms before making our final selection.". That was over four months ago. The September 13th Update said the meeting at GenCon (neither the meeting or GenCon did Scott attend), went well and a final decision would be made soon. Again, over three months ago. And that was the last time "quotes" or "manufacturers" was mentioned. Not accounting for the last KSU being late (with no acknowledgement) by two weeks.

By PB's own estimates, it's 16-23 weeks. Though claiming pre-production will take 5-6 weeks when Wave 1 took at least 23 weeks, probably much longer (I counted from when we first saw a PPP, ironically of a model that wasn't in Wave 1, and work would HAVE to have been done before that), seems a bit of a stretch. It also doesn't account for shipment transition (docks, customs, water travel, truck travel, packing orders, shipping to backers). Also, CNY writes off at least a month on top of that. Even best estimates wouldn't put it before late Q3, assuming the contract got signed today.

But don't worry, we're about a month away from Kevin's State of the Company speech. I bet 2015 2016 2017 2018 will be the year of Robotech!

If not, there's always tomorrow 2019.

[bielmic]

I suspect that Scott was hired in direct response to the customer backlash Palladium and Carmen got in their followup joint crowdfunding endeavor which ended with tragic consequences. I haven't heard anything from Palladium nor Carmen's Rogue Heroes Studio about their Rifts boardgame for months which might indicate that the project is dead. If that project won't be bringing in additional funds to Palladium's coffers then it doesn't make financial sense for them to pay for a business manager to deal with this prior troubled project. The other reason he was supposed to have been brought on for was to allow the rest of the staff (especially Kevin) to focus on putting out core RPG titles which also seemingly hasn't been the case for the past 6 months either with little change in books brought to market. The realistic view to take (which you have) is that 2018 is no more likely than the supposedly must do 2017 was that is ending with zero tangible progress made in the only metric that matters (actual products brought to market). None of the above changes the fact that backers lived up to their end and deserve better than what they've gotten since 2015.

[Morgan Vening]

I suspect that Scott was hired in direct response to the customer backlash Palladium and Carmen got in their followup joint crowdfunding endeavor which ended with tragic consequences. I haven't heard anything from Palladium nor Carmen's Rogue Heroes Studio about their Rifts boardgame for months which might indicate that the project is dead. If that project won't be bringing in additional funds to Palladium's coffers then it doesn't make financial sense for them to pay for a business manager to deal with this prior troubled project. The other reason he was supposed to have been brought on for was to allow the rest of the staff (especially Kevin) to focus on putting out core RPG titles which also seemingly hasn't been the case for the past 6 months either with little change in books brought to market. The realistic view to take (which you have) is that 2018 is no more likely than the supposedly must do 2017 was that is ending with zero tangible progress made in the only metric that matters (actual products brought to market). None of the above changes the fact that backers lived up to their end and deserve better than what they've gotten since 2015.

Hasn't stopped Kevin from claiming that five books will be out in less than 3 months. From the Dec 13 PBWU, Rifts Sovietski, Late Jan, early Feb. Bestiary 1, hopefully in time for Christmas. Bestiary 2, January. Rifts Disavowed, Dec or Jan. Faces of Death, Winter (which ends March 22nd?). If that happens, in it's entirety, then maybe PB can regain some credibility regarding scheduling. But I wouldn't bet on it.

I stand by a previous assertion I've made, of requesting a failure date. Make it end of 2019, if PB don't feel 100% confidant in getting it done this year. Remember, they started with the first PPP's in late December and it still took them more than 9 months to start delivering to a majority of backers, so that clock is already ticking.

But this constant kicking the can of responsibility down the road is just morally wrong. If, in January of 2014 when the "Wave 2 in October 2014" had been announced, I'd have speculated that Wave 2 wouldn't even have started production four years later, I'd have been roundly laughed at by PB staffers as that being a ludicrous suggestion. Yet here we are, three years, eleven months from that Update, with no sign of it starting.

If they had confidence in themselves, and respect for their backers, they'd give a failure date. Again, they can set it at whatever point they feel comfortable at being able to accomplish. But pushing it back constantly without a hard deadline (or the evidence to show that progress has been made) just seems very sketchy. Scott said Eo2017 was a possibility, so surely Eo2019 should be easy to guarantee? If they can't guarantee 2019, even accounting for Murphy's Law, doesn't that say something in and of itself?

[wilycoyote]

Drawing a line in the sand by giving a final date would be the best thing palladium could do at this point, in so much that it gives them a target to meet and as said if they are not confident of meeting it or do not they have to finally draw a veil on this and declare failure, with the consequences I outlined earlier. Personally, I cannot see them doing this and expect just more "can kicking" if only to massage Kevin's ego.

For a change let us see what could be done.

I would suggest a big step may be to drop the ABS hard plastic and go for softer types that might allow for one piece models - or at least models with substantially less parts. I backed and received a few KS's in the last couple of years and the one piece (albeit assembled in the factory) pieces were full of character and detail, more indeed that the RTT kits provide - Fireteam Zero delivered in fine style. This made me think of the unicast system being touting by Archon (or should that be Prodos?) and looking at their KS for Chronicle X, there seems to be a possiblity that this could cater for RTT Wave 2 including the larger models- FPA etc. However, I think that Palladium have to make a big decision here and drop the Monster from their plans, this is probably or likely to be the hardest one to produce and as such could be the roadblock to any chance of success

All this said, contracts need to be in place now, even to have the remotest chance of a US deliveru in 2018 - sadly I will add six monhs to that here.

Scott's absence may be simply Xmas leave to be with his family, but given he was obviously working from home anyway, a short note to that effect four weeks ago would have dampened speculation. That said he could post today - back on schedule) but this is doubtful. If he has gone how long before anyone at palladium bothers to post anything, remembering how long it took to admit that Ninja Division had quit or letting slip 2015 was not happenning at Adepticon and owning up in October of that year.

Fair to say 2018 will be one of little change to RTT, simply because PB are a dinosaur complany stuck in the 1980's who play to a very niche fanbase, which sadly means they feel entirely justified in ignoring the 5000 plus customers who backed this project.

[The Beast]

Well no matter what PB's next date they claim they'll have W2 for, there is already a hard date they need to have it done by. Harmony Gold loses the Robotech license in March of 2021. I doubt Tatsunoko Publishing will renew the license with them. That means it's possible Palladium could also lose their license for RTT and the Robotech RPG. If Palladium hasn't finished shipping out W2 by then I don't think we'll ever see it.

[Forar]

I can already see the updates/newsletters; 'don't worry, we're working like demons to get the license back, we've got quotes being traded back and forth with Tatsunoko and are sure they'll work with us because we're such big fans'.

They will ride this into the ground until their legal representation is certain that any applicable statute of limitations has passed, or the company collapses with Kevin's retirement (all claims about a succession plan aside, I really can't see PB existing much beyond that point).

So that's a couple of ticking clocks and basically we just get to wait and see which one hits 0 first.

[Panomas II]

What's terribly hilarious to me in this thread, is that we are talking about a kill date for this project a full three years ahead of schedule... I mean that's just crazy and totally disappointing... That's 8 (-ish) years since when this project started. Everyone here knows Palladium can't finish this crap-show... Just think, if only Palladium Had thought this way (a full three years ahead)... They should fire themselves and hire some of the members of this board, longtime fans who could (and I mean this sincerely) likely run this company (by committee) much better.

Keep in mind, this project and specifically Palladium's choice of involvement has devolved to a sad (poorly written) comedy. It's like a car crash in slow motion, but some of us want to be close to it when it finally explodes. Honestly, I hold myself accountable in that regard. Though it won't bring me (or my friends who backed this project) any satisfaction... Not really.

Palladium... Not only have you fethed this up so bad... But you're actually making it worse, with each non-update you post... I mean (are you reading this Scott?) the chances of being sued are practically nil... The best thing you can do is admit you fethed up and move on...

Scott, no one in that community asked for bi-weekly updates, which have nothing to do with the actual completion of the project. To put it in Kevin speak, "what the heck are you thinking?" What the community asked for was actual progress and/or transparency in regards to the second wave... Pathetic.

[Forar]

Bi-weekly would make sense if they actually had a ton of things happening in rapid succession. For a project with signs of life, it might make sense.

If we're just going to get empty non-updates that don't share us a scrap of info worth having, just go to monthly 'we're totally still here, you guys!' and cut the workload in half.

Bam, that one is free, just saved them like 10 minutes a month of extra Solitaire time.

[Panomas II]

Bi-weekly would make sense if they actually had a ton of things happening in rapid succession. For a project with signs of life, it might make sense.

If we're just going to get empty non-updates that don't share us a scrap of info worth having, just go to monthly 'we're totally still here, you guys!' and cut the workload in half.

Bam, that one is free, just saved them like 10 minutes a month of extra Solitaire time.

And, transparency is something which Palladium doesn't seem to care much about. The getting quotes at GenCon thing is our latest example... Even if they didn't get any bid low enough to produce the wave (which obviously they didn't) instead of stating this, they choose to drop it... Granted it's pretty obvious they didn't get the numbers they thought they would, or even actually know what they are doing at all... (that assuming that they were in fact getting quotes at all) But, I would guess the real blame goes to the choice to split the delivery into two waves. Shipping product this way is already more expensive, and if you tack on another (almost) three years from when the first wave delivered, well... Let's just say the price of international shipping has not gone down. Admittedly, I didn't come to this conclusion on my own.

One person (sry, not name dropping) I chatted with essentially said that even if they shipped the entire project in one wave that it would be close, $ wise. But, dividing it into two waves, forget it. Unless of coarse Palladium was willing to dip into their own pockets... But even if they wanted to, how much $ do they have?

My guess, is at the point of them dumping Ninja Division they thought they could get a better price, from a manufacturer... And make a little extra money... However, who would tell them such a thing, or where would they get the idea the whomever told them that, had/has more experience than Ninja Division? And which according to the FB & KS posts, Ninja Division had them all set up and ready to go.

I stepped away for a couple of months... And when I come back... It's exactly the same song and dance.

It still fires me up though-

[wilycoyote]

Key point is at this point now, is to get Palladium to admit failure, rather than continually kicking the can down the road.

Short of some sort of economic miracle - Sony pick up the rights and hand Kevin a big wad of money? - we all know at this point it is not happenning. Christ, even if Palladium were given the funds all over again now, I seriously doubt that they would deliver wave 2 in the next year or so.

So why do they need to finally say it is not happenning?

Obviously it provides closure on the actual manufacture of the goods promised but it also thhen forces them to talk about what actually happenned, where the money was spent and enter the vexed isuue of refunding backers.

Will it happen?

My opinion no, simply because Kevin (as Mr Palladium) will never admit he has failed at anything, never, never, full stop

Anyway outside of this ongoing slow motion train wreck, here is wishing all a Happy New Year and may the new one bring you whatever you hope for, even if it will not be Wave 2

[Forar]

I can't see Sony handing over a dime, at least not to Palladium. If Tatsunoko doesn't work with HG when the deadline comes up, presumably those who have the license through working with HG are also up the creek, and Tatsunoko/Sony can sort things out however they like. Obviously licensing rights would have to be considered valuable if people/companies are paying to get what would likely have a substantial budget attached to it, which means anyone seriously involved would take one look at this cluster...shenanigans and laugh at the idea of further supporting such a toxic mess.

And that's IF it ever actually gets made. If not, it continues to languish in neglect and notoriety until it finally hits a failure state of some sort (the license gets pulled, PB closes shop, someone wins the lottery and decides to force it through just to get this running gag over with, whatever).

Yes, I did just call 'this mess getting completed' a failure state. The game has failed on numerous levels, even completion will simply be an end to an era.

The only way to avoid that would be a Herculean effort on behalf of both PB and the community, and if that were going to happen I would have expected it to come to pass sometime in the last 4.5 years.

[bielmic]

I can't see Sony handing over a dime, at least not to Palladium. If Tatsunoko doesn't work with HG when the deadline comes up, presumably those who have the license through working with HG are also up the creek, and Tatsunoko/Sony can sort things out however they like. Obviously licensing rights would have to be considered valuable if people/companies are paying to get what would likely have a substantial budget attached to it, which means anyone seriously involved would take one look at this cluster...shenanigans and laugh at the idea of further supporting such a toxic mess.

And that's IF it ever actually gets made. If not, it continues to languish in neglect and notoriety until it finally hits a failure state of some sort (the license gets pulled, PB closes shop, someone wins the lottery and decides to force it through just to get this running gag over with, whatever).

Yes, I did just call 'this mess getting completed' a failure state. The game has failed on numerous levels, even completion will simply be an end to an era.

The only way to avoid that would be a Herculean effort on behalf of both PB and the community, and if that were going to happen I would have expected it to come to pass sometime in the last 4.5 years.

Considering that in the past 3 years Palladium has barely managed to put forth even a token public effort to support the game and produce the remaining rewards, I suspect that's impossible albeit I freely admit I don't know what has been happening behind the scenes. Regardless, even if there was a monumental change in the level of effort put forth by Palladium publicly, it wouldn't matter with Sony and the upcoming movie. One of the few things that HG has done right is set fan expectations appropriately years ahead of any possible Sony movie release. They've been consistently telling folks at conventions to NOT expect early 1980's robotech but rather a complete reboot that will hopefully carry one some of the basic themes. They've used the F-14 that was the basis for the VF-1 veritech as an example since it hasn't been in service for years with the US Navy. Visually, if anything comes out, I expect it to be more on par with the Transformers reboot (*verp*) meets the more modern macross sequels and completely incompatible with anything that Palladium has put out.

[Forar]

Oh, I've joked for years that the Robotech live action movie (if it were to actually exist) would barely resemble the cartoon that we grew up with. There'd probably be a dog character/plot, and a love triangle interjected for no reason, Minmei's songs would be modern pop, the Veritechs wouldn't look the same, and Gloval is played by Tom Cruise or something, etc, etc. Basically, 'careful what you wish for'.

Few movie adaptations have managed to meet or exceed their source material, and even fewer of them started in a visual medium.