Combining PFRPG 1E and 2E

[shihansmurf]

Hi,

I'm starting up a new PFRPG campaign. This is the first Palladium game I've ran for quite a few years and the first time I've ran PFRPG since a short 4 - 5 sessions of 2E in 2005. There are several things I like in 2E but I vastly prefer first edition. I'm looking at combining the two so a sort of 1.5 edition.

All first edition class rules for skills, races, and combat.

2nd edition rules for magic.

I'm pretty torn on which editions psionic rules to use.

Has anyone done this and if so how well did it work?

Any issues in doing this?

Thanks in advance,
Mark

[Library Ogre]

Personally, I would lean towards 2nd edition rules for psionics, partially because it results in more useful 1st level psychics. I'd also consider the 2e rule that allows wizards some non-Common Knowledge spells, and give single-element warlocks 3 spells per level.

[Suicycho]

I liked the specialized H2H for each class in 1 ed.

[kiralon]

This is how I play except that I use the magic from 1st ed (apprentice - wizard) 2nd ed (novitiate -> sorcerer) and dnd second ed (magus -> magister) and just use the 1st ed wizard as the template and switch out the magic.
If you are using 1st ed classes stick with the first ed psionicist, but give the 2nd ed healing psionics powers to the healer, and add at different levels other 2nd ed powers if you like as 2nd ed psionicist pretty much outstrips anyone they come across. All the munchkins I ever dm'd loved the 2nd ed mind mage and play them in preference to anything else, as there is very little protection from psionics and the base save for a lot of things is 15+
The level limitation does make them less useful in combat at low level but with their range of abilities, and the number they get each level they are still pretty useful, but remember they get teleport, its hard to trap them.
Change sleeping cloud to only work on creatures up to level 3
Change carpet of adhesion to have an effective PS of Willpower + 1 per level of caster. (PS of carpet is wil+1/lvl) for what it c an hold.

I have a whole host of changes that I can send through to you if ya want, just pm me.

[shihansmurf]

I liked the specialized H2H for each class in 1 ed.

Agreed. It is one of my favorite things about the game. It really adds flavor to the men at arms.

[Hotrod]

I liked the specialized H2H for each class in 1 ed.

Agreed. It is one of my favorite things about the game. It really adds flavor to the men at arms.

I have somewhat mixed feelings about OCC-specific hand-to-hand skills. In some cases, it adds quite a bit to the flavor (the Longbowman is perhaps the best example in 1st Edition, getting critical strikes specifically with the bow). However, in most cases, it's a label that doesn't carry through with enough distinctive stats to warrant the space it takes up. The rigidity of the hand-to-hand skills available in 1st Ed. is another feature I don't much care for.

I would like to see a few more specialized hand-to-hand skills, moves, and bonuses to accentuate the distinctiveness of certain combat styles associated with specific OCCs that are inherent to specific OCCs and/or available as in-lieu-of substitutions for Expert or Martial Arts by some other OCCs. Perhaps there's a happy middle ground that can be found.

I also think that Hand-to-Hand: Assassin should have no alignment restrictions.

[Library Ogre]

While I like it, in theory, the hand to hand skills being oddly "tiered" annoyed me. Soldier is better than Mercenary Fighter; otherwise, they are comparable. Palladin is better than Knight; otherwise, they are comparable. With no class abilities and minor differences in XP tables, there didn't seem to be much variety, just the illusion thereof.

[kiralon]

That's why mixing the 2 worked best for me.
Paladins got the demon death blow out of second ed
Knights got the way of the lance
priests go the ability to turn or debuff most supernatural evil rather than just animated dead.
wizards got a couple new magic types
warlocks got a few of the second ed powers
changed xp tables
Longbowman lost some hth ability and gained some ranged bonuses/skills

[Hotrod]

While I like it, in theory, the hand to hand skills being oddly "tiered" annoyed me. Soldier is better than Mercenary Fighter; otherwise, they are comparable. Palladin is better than Knight; otherwise, they are comparable. With no class abilities and minor differences in XP tables, there didn't seem to be much variety, just the illusion thereof.

In the case of knights/palladins, they are fairly comparable. In mounted combat, which could be seen as the dominant form of combat for knights and palladins, palladins hold an edge, but they are otherwise comparable due to horsemanship skill differences and way of the lance differences. Palladins also get the demon death blow.

Personally, I don't actually care for the "palladins are like knights but better in every way, plus they have an anti-demon move" angle of either edition. I'd prefer to have knights be better mounted warriors and palladins to be better against the supernatural, so that the choice between playing either is more interesting.

Where 2nd Edition went astray for me was in the personal SDC mechanic, which made every person much tougher and made combat take longer.

[Veknironth]

Well, I agree with keeping the 1st Edition hand to hand, if nothing other than H2H Paladin getting karate kicks. I would go with 2nd edition for most everything else. The magic is far superior. The one change is to not go strictly with the original Palladium 2nd Edition casting times. I much prefer the new rules, or Mark's Spell Channeling. If the mage has to wait half a melee to cast even the simplest spell that makes Psionics so much more powerful.

The psionics should be 2nd Ed as well. The big flaw with 1st Ed Psionics is that someone can roll Major Psionics and get almost all of the psionics if he or she is incredibly lucky. There was too blurry a line between Mind Mage and a Major Psionic. In 2nd Edition, there is a distinct difference between Mind Mages and people who are lucky enough to have some psionic ability.

Here's where people jump on me. Stick with 1st edition and no SDC. SDC as it is written is merely extra HP. They added more HP, but didn't scale up the weapon and spell damage. It makes combat take longer, and it's silly when a 1st level character with all the physical skills can take 10 direct arrow strikes with no deleterious effects. Some people will say that the SDC incorporates being able to avoid hits in some manner, but I don't buy it. First, there are already mechanics in the game for avoiding damage. Second, it's Structural Damage Capacity, which seems pretty clear.

The last thing is the 2 attacks for living. In 1st Ed, you get 1 attack or whatever you pick up from H2H skills. In 2nd Ed, eventually, you get 2 attacks PLUS whatever you pick up. This doesn't matter much with humanoid vs humanoid. It sort of shortens combat because there are fewer initiative rolls. However, it does hurt the animals and creatures without OCC's from the early books. Some of them were meant to have more attacks than humans and were written with 5 attacks per melee and a 2nd level Assassin laughs at them.

-Vek
"Never trust a mind mage."

[kiralon]

the disparity in attacks per melee between casters and fighters in second meant that at high level the wizards often preferred to use hth because they would get 2 spell attacks to the fighters twelve (stupid fleet feet), same with using prayers. Using Hth meant they would contribute to a fight whereas if they cast spells they would be twiddling their thumbs for most of the fight. In the high level game I played in casting spells or using prayers was a waste of time because the fight would be over before the first prayer (1d4 actions) went off or a useful spell went off.
1st ed was better because of the less amount of attacks, and of course non-ninja paladins.
With the psionics just make minor and major choices like second ed, and the 2nd ed mind mage starts with godlike isp compared to 1st.
The game works best with the magic users having 1 to 2 actions and the fighters around 3-4, then there aren't people sitting at the table waiting hours to do something.

[Veknironth]

Well, Kiralon, I agree with you. But didn't they alter it so that a spell of level 1-8 only takes 1 attack? Am I crazy on this?

-Vek
"Was it in a Rifter, or ported over from Rifts?"

[kiralon]

Well, Kiralon, I agree with you. But didn't they alter it so that a spell of level 1-8 only takes 1 attack? Am I crazy on this?

-Vek
"Was it in a Rifter, or ported over from Rifts?"

Think it was 1-5, as it only covered the spells that did set damage. The ones that were 1d6 per level started at 2 attacks used.

Not sure where it came from, might have been rifts ultimate.

[Prysus]

Well, Kiralon, I agree with you. But didn't they alter it so that a spell of level 1-8 only takes 1 attack? Am I crazy on this?

-Vek
"Was it in a Rifter, or ported over from Rifts?"

Think it was 1-5, as it only covered the spells that did set damage. The ones that were 1d6 per level started at 2 attacks used.

Not sure where it came from, might have been rifts ultimate.

Greetings and Salutations. Rifts Ultimate Edition on page 189 introduced the magic casting rules of spells 1-5 taking 1 action, 6-10 taking 2 actions, and 11-15 taking 3 actions (basically divide by 5, round up).

These rules were also printed in Mysteries of Magic on page 55 as "Optional" rules (which means they're not official in PF). However, from what I can tell, the current PF canon rules for spell casting time would be on page 54. Levels 1-2 take 1 action, levels 3-8 take up half your attacks for the melee round, 9-10 take a full melee round, and 11-15 take two melee rounds.

Rifter #21 also had the P.P.E. Channeling rules, which was based on level and the P.P.E. cost of the spell (not the spell level), if I recall correctly. While I never got very into those rules, many enjoyed them (especially before the RUE ruling for Rifts).

As for those discussing Hand to Hand ... in my experience, something many fans miss from the original Palladium Role-Playing Game (a.k.a. Palladium Fantasy First Edition) are the hand to hand styles. The Second Edition system is great for simplicity, but simple isn't always better. For those who want a bit more variety and customization, I've created several new Hand to Hand styles compatible with Second Edition. While I could've attempted to simply bring the First Edition hand to hand styles into Second Edition, that would be going backwards. Instead, I want to move forward and introduce something new, different, and fits well into the Second Edition rules.

http://www.prysus.com/training_grounds.htm

I kind of stopped writing shortly after I posted those. But I hope to start updating the site again soon as I've finally started writing again. My recent project over the last couple of days has been a Hand to Hand for Knights (the topic of Knights being worse than Palladins inspired me). I'll post the rough draft below (for those curious), in Spoiler tags (so those who are not curious can simply skip it). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

Spoiler:

Hand to Hand: Chevalier
(a.k.a. Knight Combat)

Knights are formidable opponents, especially when wielding a weapon in their hands. Most train throughout their lives and spend whatever resources are necessary to obtain the very best weapons, armor, and war horses. Standard knight training involves advanced unarmed combat techniques that gives them an edge against untrained and even those with only basic combat training, but not up to the level of those with martial arts training like the Palladin.

However, what good is the very equipment if the one using it can't bring out its maximum potential? This is where Chevalier training comes in. These knights forgo much of their unarmed training in favor of focusing on their tools of war. Training involves improved horsemanship, mobility in armor, and honing defenses with a shield. Though a Chevalier may lose in a bar room brawl, give them a horse and shield on the battlefield and they can best the most fearsome of opponents.

Availability: Restricted, Knights only. The Art of the Chevalier is only taught to those part of a knightly order. Not even Palladins may learn this fighting style.
Limitations: The knight must be armed for this fighting style to reach its potential. Without weapons or armor, these knights may struggle against someone with only Hand to Hand: Basic training.
Skill Cost: Equal to Martial Arts.

Basic Combat Moves: Punch (1D4), Elbow, Knee, Disarm, Dodge, Entangle, Body Block/Tackle, Roll with Impact, Power Punch (but not Power Kick), and Pull Punch.
1: Starts with four attacks per melee round; +2 to roll with punch/fall/impact, +2 to pull punch, and Cavalryman.
2: +1 to parry and dodge, +2 to parry when wielding a weapon.
3: +2 to strike.
4: One additional attack per melee round. Armor Master.
5: Kick attacks: Karate style kick does 2D4 damage and any one of choice.
6: Critical Strike on a Natural 19 or 20 (double damage).
7: +1 damage ,and Paired Weapons.
8: +2 to roll with punch/fall/impact, and Lancer.
9: One additional attack per melee round.
10: +1 on initiative when wielding a weapon, and Stone Wall.
11: Critical Strike on a Natural 17-20 (triple damage).
12: +2 damage, and Weapon Specialization.
13: Knockout/Stun when wielding a blunt weapon on a Natural 17-20.
14: Lethal Strike.
15: One additional attack per melee round.

Armor Master: Men at Arms are trained with the use of all types of armor. The knight takes this one step further, and knows how to better cover up the weak points and make the most of any armor he wears. Add a +1 to the Armor Rating of any armor worn (e.g. Chain Mail with an A.R. of 14 becomes 15 while worn by the knight, and Scale Mail goes from 15 to 16). This bonus applies to both light and heavy armor. Additionally, they suffer no Speed penalty, even in heavy armor. Note: Men at Arms, Knights included, typically suffer a -2 penalty to Speed while wearing heavy armor.

Cavalryman: +10% to Horsemanship, +1 on initiative when on horseback, and an additional +1D6 to all damage on horseback (including charge attacks). If earning a military salary, also earns an additional 50 gold per month.

Knockout/Stun: This special attack will momentarily knockout or stun/daze its victim for 1D4 melee rounds. The knight must be wielding a blunt weapon, such as a shield or even his bare hands, to stun the opponent. When rolling a 17-20, the knight must decide (player's choice) if inflicting Critical Damage (x3) or Knockout/Stun, but cannot do both.

Lancer: The knight can unseat opponents on a Natural 18-20. An opponent may also be unseated with a modified 20 or greater. Unseated opponents take 2D6 damage from the lance (3D6 if part of a charge attack), are knocked from their horse suffering 1D6 fall damage, loses initiative, and loses two attacks per melee. Fallen riders may attempt to roll with fall/impact. A successful roll negates the fall damage (but still takes weapon damage), and only loses one attack per melee (instead of two).

Lethal Strike: Similar to Death Blow, but will only work on mortal foes (Supernatural Beings and Creatures of Magic are immune). While wielding a melee weapon, the knight can spend two attacks to deliver a Lethal Strike, inflicting double damage, plus P.S. bonuses direct to Hit Points! This means the attack bypasses S.D.C. entirely. The attack must still hit and penetrate the opponent's armor (strike roll above the A.R.).

Lethal Strike counts as two melee attacks/actions with the strike landing on the second action, meaning the technique can be interrupted similar to a spell. This is why knights generally make this part of a combination attack, with something like a Shield Bash to stun the opponent or using a knockdown attack (such as unseating an opponent or using a trip attack), then following it up with a Lethal Strike.

Stone Wall: One of the knight's best tools is his shield. Shields are excellent at defending, and are also useful for attacks when needed. With a shield in one hand and weapon in the other, a skilled knight's defenses can be as impenetrable as a stone wall. +3 to parry with shields, in addition to other bonuses. A knight using a shield for defense can attempt to parry arrows, crossbow bolts, thrown spears, fireballs, dragon's breath, and other fired projectile weapons/attacks with only a -3 penalty (instead of the normal -10).

On the knight's turn, instead of attacking on his action he can instead choose to focus on his Stone Wall Defense. This means he gives up any chance to attack for that turn, but grants him the ability to auto-parry for nearby allies while using his shield (any within melee range). The ability remains until the knight's next turn, when he may decide to attack or continue his Stone Wall Defense. While this would mean the knight is no longer damaging the enemy, he is helping keep his allies alive. This is useful when facing a tough opponent or to allow allies to focus on defense (such as twin, strikes with Paired Weapons).

Weapon Specialization: Knights are trained for use in a variety of weapons, but can still favor a particular weapon. The knight is even deadlier when wielding their weapon of choice. This preferred weapon can be any of the knight's choosing, the knight must specify a specific type of weapon (e.g. Claymore, Lance, or Mace) and already be proficient with the weapon (e.g. W.P. Sword if selecting Claymore, W.P. Lance or Spear if selecting Lance, or W.P. Blunt if selecting Mace). Bonuses: one additional attack per melee round if using the chosen weapon for the entire round, +1 to strike for every three levels of experience, and +1 to parry for every 4 levels of experience. This means that a Level 12 Knight wielding his weapon of choice will have one additional attack per melee round, +4 to strike, and +3 to parry, in addition to his normal bonuses from W.P. and other skills.

[shihansmurf]

[justify]

Well, Kiralon, I agree with you. But didn't they alter it so that a spell of level 1-8 only takes 1 attack? Am I crazy on this?

-Vek
"Was it in a Rifter, or ported over from Rifts?"

Think it was 1-5, as it only covered the spells that did set damage. The ones that were 1d6 per level started at 2 attacks used.

Not sure where it came from, might have been rifts ultimate.

Greetings and Salutations. Rifts Ultimate Edition on page 189 introduced the magic casting rules of spells 1-5 taking 1 action, 6-10 taking 2 actions, and 11-15 taking 3 actions (basically divide by 5, round up).

These rules were also printed in Mysteries of Magic on page 55 as "Optional" rules (which means they're not official in PF). However, from what I can tell, the current PF canon rules for spell casting time would be on page 54. Levels 1-2 take 1 action, levels 3-8 take up half your attacks for the melee round, 9-10 take a full melee round, and 11-15 take two melee rounds.

Rifter #21 also had the P.P.E. Channeling rules, which was based on level and the P.P.E. cost of the spell (not the spell level), if I recall correctly. While I never got very into those rules, many enjoyed them (especially before the RUE ruling for Rifts).

As for those discussing Hand to Hand ... in my experience, something many fans miss from the original Palladium Role-Playing Game (a.k.a. Palladium Fantasy First Edition) are the hand to hand styles. The Second Edition system is great for simplicity, but simple isn't always better. For those who want a bit more variety and customization, I've created several new Hand to Hand styles compatible with Second Edition. While I could've attempted to simply bring the First Edition hand to hand styles into Second Edition, that would be going backwards. Instead, I want to move forward and introduce something new, different, and fits well into the Second Edition rules.

http://www.prysus.com/training_grounds.htm

I kind of stopped writing shortly after I posted those. But I hope to start updating the site again soon as I've finally started writing again. My recent project over the last couple of days has been a Hand to Hand for Knights (the topic of Knights being worse than Palladins inspired me). I'll post the rough draft below (for those curious), in Spoiler tags (so those who are not curious can simply skip it). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

Wowzers!

Your site is awesome! Thank you for sharing that. I'm going make great use of your material in my game.

Mark