Create Zombie + Hunters or Winged Nightbane: can it FLY?

[Axelmania]

NB p 165

Spd. 1D4x10 on the ground, 1D4x10+40 flying.

WB4 TTGD p 60

Note: It's not only humans who can be animated in this way. Dead Nightbane, Hunters, cattle, horses, etc. -anything up to 600 Ibs (270 kg) in weight may be animated by this spell.

Zombies have Spd attribute reduced to 1/2, so we're probably looking at 1D4x5 (5-20) on ground and 1D4x5+20 (25-40) in air, but I can't see anything about zombies losing their flight, so would you let a Hunter who is animated via the Create Zombie spell fly?

[Shark_Force]

funny. your morphus disappears when you die. it would be very hard to turn that into a zombie

[drewkitty ~..~]

A hunter is a golem, it can not be animated via create zombie.

So effectively the answer is 'no'.

It is known that KS writes stupid text into the books. (Mack recently confirmed this tangentially.) The TtGD text you sited look to be one of those such times.

And, NB facades can't fly...so again the answer is effectively 'no' due to the impossibility.

[dreicunan]

A hunter is a golem, it can not be animated via create zombie.

So effectively the answer is 'no'.

It is known that KS writes stupid text into the books. (Mack recently confirmed this tangentially.) The TtGD text you sited is one of those such times.

And, NB facades can't fly...so again the answer is effectively 'no' due to the impossibility.

I'm not very up on my Nightbane just yet (I only recently starting looking at the books in depth again), but I just read the hound and hunter entries and it only says that they are believed to be constructs, similar to a golem, but that leaves wiggle room. Given that Golems don't have HP and the hunters and hounds do have HP, I'd written that off as a "believed, but wrong" perspective. Is there more information in one of the sourcebooks that declares that they are indeed constructs that could not be animated after their demise?

[eliakon]

A hunter is a golem, it can not be animated via create zombie.

So effectively the answer is 'no'.

It is known that KS writes stupid text into the books. (Mack recently confirmed this tangentially.) The TtGD text you sited is one of those such times.

And, NB facades can't fly...so again the answer is effectively 'no' due to the impossibility.

I'm not very up on my Nightbane just yet (I only recently starting looking at the books in depth again), but I just read the hound and hunter entries and it only says that they are believed to be constructs, similar to a golem, but that leaves wiggle room. Given that Golems don't have HP and the hunters and hounds do have HP, I'd written that off as a "believed, but wrong" perspective. Is there more information in one of the sourcebooks that declares that they are indeed constructs that could not be animated after their demise?

Yes and no
The Hounds and Hunters are described as "animated hollow shells with no true blood" in the vampire section.

HOWVER there are several counter points

1) Hollow Men are also listed in the same sentence as 'shells' and they have a living being that animates the shell...

2) That the armor is termed an exoskeleton every time it is discussed, which implies that there is something for it to be exo-skelatoning for.

3) As you pointed out they also have HP which no other construct in the mega verse possesses and is exclusive to true living things.

4) Also tellingly they are NOT immune to sleep, paralysis, pain, curses, telepathy, mind attacks, poison, and all the other weaknesses of living beings. Neither are they stated to not need air, food or water or have any of the other protections and immunities of constructs.

5) On a related note, not a single spell or talent is listed as not working on hounds and hunters... even spells that affect the mind, or flesh, or life force or the like.

6) I will also note that the Hound Master is a promoted Hound

7) the Hunter's Wings Cybermagic Device is described as a Hunters exoskeleton, and that pieces of it were removed while the hunter was still alive.

8) of course the canon statement that they can be raised as zombies


Thus my theory is that there is a living being that is grafted into the armors and which 'animates' the armor shell as its exoskeleton. That being has no blood, and is quite possibly some sort of icky weirdness that needs the shells to live/exist at all (maybe a form of living shadow, or some sort of black tarry 'stuff' or horribly mutated doppelgangers or something equally horrific)

[slade the sniper]

It is known that KS writes stupid text into the books. (Mack recently confirmed this tangentially.)

Is this intentionally, or just because he is KS and can do that? (Not a criticism...I love all the stupid/wacky/weird/huh??? Palladium settings...well at least some aspects of them all).

-STS

[drewkitty ~..~]

According to the way Mack said what he said, I believe it is intentional....but there is the part that KS ""can"" do this is because her is KS, the core writer for PB.

[eliakon]

According to the way Mack said what he said, I believe it is intentional....but there is the part that KS ""can"" do this is because her is KS, the core writer for PB.

Is there a place we can go to see where Mack said this? Like the exact words and the exact context?
I am having a hard time believing that he would actually say this sort of thing in this sort of context.

[Axelmania]

funny. your morphus disappears when you die. it would be very hard to turn that into a zombie

Hm, I guess the next might have meant Nightbane who died in Facade?

I remember that bit about disappearing but can't remember where I saw it.

This makes me wonder if an animated Facade would retain the ability to have Becoming though.

A hunter is a golem, it can not be animated via create zombie. So effectively the answer is 'no'.

1. Where does it refer to a hunter as a golem?
2. Where does it say golems cannot be animated via Create Zombie?

I did find for Hounds on pg 161:

They are believed to be magical constructs, similar to the golems of legend. Unlike golems, however, Hounds do feel emotions and have lusts and desires

So it seems like there is a distinction made between golems and Hounds, and presumably also the more intelligent Hound Masters / Hunters.

It is known that KS writes stupid text into the books. (Mack recently confirmed this tangentially.) The TtGD text you sited is one of those such times.

http://palladium-store.com/1001/product ... arkly.html was written by Kevin Hassall

This spell introduced the spell Create Zombie, so when Hassall defines it as able to animate hunters, it can animate them.

Also of note is page 19 where Cybermagic (which requires living flesh) has an example of "Fly: The Hunter's Wings" by Tanya Schiro which relies on a Hunter's exoskeleton. It specifically says:

removed from the Hunter while it was still alive, and they remain warm and clammy

Page 165 mentions "covered in a black skeletal armor" so there is clearly something under the armor which it is covering. Consider what 161 said of Hounds for example:

Hounds appear to be clad in black metal armor, fashioned to look like a skeletal figure. In reality, the "armor" is part of their body and cannot be removed

The armor is only "part" of them, rather than ALL of them. So there is gooey bits underneath.

TTGD introduces the information that the Hunter exoskeleton is WARM too. Meaning you could hit them with heat-seeking missiles. We do not know if the same applies to Hounds.

The Hounds and Hunters are described as "animated hollow shells with no true blood" in the vampire section.

I don't see "true" on 183, rather more broadly:

The Hounds, Hunters and Hollow Men are animated shells with no blood

Was "true" added in some later edition?

Anyway this is complicated by being able to drink Hound Blood in magic rituals in Nightlands. Best I can figure is maybe they only have blood in the Nightlands but are bloodless on earth?

the Hound Master is a promoted Hound

I'm not sure they get promoted... I always figures the Masters were built that way.

[eliakon]

funny. your morphus disappears when you die. it would be very hard to turn that into a zombie

Hm, I guess the next might have meant Nightbane who died in Facade?

I remember that bit about disappearing but can't remember where I saw it.

This makes me wonder if an animated Facade would retain the ability to have Becoming though.

I would think that would be up to the GM.
My personal call is that if it did, it would then be a Morpheus corpse and vanish.

It is known that KS writes stupid text into the books. (Mack recently confirmed this tangentially.) The TtGD text you sited is one of those such times.

http://palladium-store.com/1001/product ... arkly.html was written by Kevin Hassall

This spell introduced the spell Create Zombie, so when Hassall defines it as able to animate hunters, it can animate them.

Also of note is page 19 where Cybermagic (which requires living flesh) has an example of "Fly: The Hunter's Wings" by Tanya Schiro which relies on a Hunter's exoskeleton. It specifically says:

removed from the Hunter while it was still alive, and they remain warm and clammy

Page 165 mentions "covered in a black skeletal armor" so there is clearly something under the armor which it is covering. Consider what 161 said of Hounds for example:

Hounds appear to be clad in black metal armor, fashioned to look like a skeletal figure. In reality, the "armor" is part of their body and cannot be removed

The armor is only "part" of them, rather than ALL of them. So there is gooey bits underneath.

Good catch.

The Hounds and Hunters are described as "animated hollow shells with no true blood" in the vampire section.

I don't see "true" on 183, rather more broadly:

The Hounds, Hunters and Hollow Men are animated shells with no blood

Was "true" added in some later edition?

Anyway this is complicated by being able to drink Hound Blood in magic rituals in Nightlands. Best I can figure is maybe they only have blood in the Nightlands but are bloodless on earth?

I forgot about that ritual. Good catch there.
I would speculate that the blood is 'hound blood' and not the 'true blood' that vampires need. Aka it works from magic rituals and such... but it will not slake a vampires thirst which is a bit more demanding.

the Hound Master is a promoted Hound

I'm not sure they get promoted... I always figures the Masters were built that way.

It mentions that they are promoted in the Hound Master write up.
I do not know about giant hounds though, that is left nebulous.
And of course we do not know if there is a Hunter Master either. Logically there should be one but there is no canon text supporting it.

[Axelmania]

Ah, you're right, at the very start of 162 "graced with higher intelligence and initiative as a "reward" for their services." Which does speak to the whole having emotions thing because if they were automatons, they wouldn't care about seeking out rewards so there wouldn't really be a point.

Maybe it's a similar process to how Doppleganger Warlords get made?

I like the idea of Hunter Masters too, I would probably just add whatever the difference was that Hound Masters had to the Hunter template.

I guess based on that approach you could construct Great Hunters or even Great Hound Masters and Great Hunter Masters.

[drewkitty ~..~]

TtGD page three
Editors
Alex M.
Jim O.
Kevin Siembieda

[eliakon]

Ah, you're right, at the very start of 162 "graced with higher intelligence and initiative as a "reward" for their services." Which does speak to the whole having emotions thing because if they were automatons, they wouldn't care about seeking out rewards so there wouldn't really be a point.

Maybe it's a similar process to how Doppleganger Warlords get made?

I like the idea of Hunter Masters too, I would probably just add whatever the difference was that Hound Masters had to the Hunter template.

I guess based on that approach you could construct Great Hunters or even Great Hound Masters and Great Hunter Masters.

Oh for my games? I have all four running around because a gigantic Hunter with horns calling out orders to a flock of 10' hunters is just what every group wants to run into in the waste

[eliakon]

TtGD page three
Editors
Alex M.
Jim O.
Kevin Siembieda

I'm confused.
Are you taking the Position that Kevin is an unreliable source or the position that material with his personal stamp of approval is the highest authority?
Because you seem to be coming down squarely on both sides of the issue.
Especially since you start out with the position that Hunters can not be zombified because they are just golems and the statement that says that they can is in error.
Now you seem to be supporting the opposite side that says that the Hunters are actual living creatures with flesh and blood (of some sort) under their armored exoskeleton.
would you mind answering two questions?
1) what is your source for your claim that Mack has stated that Kevin Siembieda is unreliable.
2) what is your stance on the issue of zombie hunters as you seem to be taking both sides at the same time.

[dreicunan]

TtGD page three
Editors
Alex M.
Jim O.
Kevin Siembieda

The real exceptional thing is a Palladium book not edited by Kevin Siembieda. The point in dispute is about who WROTE the spell in question, because you asserted that Kevin S wrote it. Kevin S is pretty forward about mentioning anytime in the book that he also wrote something. Chapter 4, where the Create Zombie spell is found, is not one of those spots. The evidence demonstrates that the text was not written by Kevin S. Therefore, it is not "one of those times," as you asserted.

[eliakon]

TtGD page three
Editors
Alex M.
Jim O.
Kevin Siembieda

The real exceptional thing is a Palladium book not edited by Kevin Siembieda. The point in dispute is about who WROTE the spell in question, because you asserted that Kevin S wrote it. Kevin S is pretty forward about mentioning anytime in the book that he also wrote something. Chapter 4, where the Create Zombie spell is found, is not one of those spots. The evidence demonstrates that the text was not written by Kevin S. Therefore, it is not "one of those times," as you asserted.

Well it could be.
The burden of proof would be on Drew to prove that
1) Kevin was the person that wrote the new variation of Zombie in question.
2) that Kevin is actually unreliable.

So far we just have two unsubstantiated assertions both of which claim validity on the basis of being claimed.

[Axelmania]

Even if Kev didn't write the material, editors are meant to monitor for inconsistencies, like if he didn't think Hunters should be zombie candidates. Unless he recants, we must assume he endorses any book he has edited.

[eliakon]

Even if Kev didn't write the material, editors are meant to monitor for inconsistencies, like if he didn't think Hunters should be zombie candidates. Unless he recants, we must assume he endorses any book he has edited.

True.

So now we just need Drew to cite his sources on his claim that

It is known that KS writes stupid text into the books. (Mack recently confirmed this tangentially.) The TtGD text you sited is one of those such times.

Because with out something better than second hand hersay that sounds more like an ad hominem attack to discredit the canon itself in an attempt to allow for the cherry picking of what canon statements to accept and what canon statements to reject.

[Axelmania]

'stupid' is kind of vague/broad. I've seen what looks like contradictory text in multiple places in the same tome, in books Siembieda worked on, so "writes conflicting text" could work, though it's sometimes hard to tell who writes what in books with multiple contributors.

[drewkitty ~..~]

That the canon books have multiple inconsistencies and that many of those inconsistencies are written into books KS has written. This does point in the direction of who is responsible for said inconsistencies.

And that those inconsistencies are what are vehemently argued about here does because the of those inconsistencies, does make them look like stupid inconsistencies. Because KS could actually reread the canon books that have been published and not write something that contradicts the current canon rules in them, or any other research to avoid things that end up causing arguments.

Or KS even might write up updates to make clear the canon stuff that Has Caused Arguments because of his unclear writing style.

Things like....(note I am listing examples of the stupid arguments caused by KS's inconsistencies because the canon supports both sides. So Y'All don't think about reopening them.)
The PF changing class rules and if the lines in the PCCs that directly say that 'PCCs cannot be changed to or changed from' are directly a part of the changing class rules found in the High Seas book or are class specific rules.
Or if RCCs are covered by the published changing class rules that only has rules that cover OCCs.

Or like making an update about whether the Titan Juicer has 'True SNPS' as some people here insist they 'now' have or just a 'Mundane Equivalent of SNPS' as the class text says it has but not as directly as some here would like.

Or if the elemental opposition mentioned in the Fusionist magic class (which corresponds with classical concepts of the elements) limits Warlocks from picking opposing elements.

But so far he does not seam to be interested in actually making any updates to most of the ""inconsistencies"" that crop up in his writing and get argued about.

[dreicunan]

Or like making an update about whether the Titan Juicer has 'True SNPS' as some people here insist they 'now' have or just a 'Mundane Equivalent of SNPS' as the class text says it has but not as directly as some here would like.

There is nothing to reopen, because there is no dispute here for anyone who has bothered reading that entire OCC entry. It says directly in multiple places that the Titan Juicer DOES have Supernatural PS (P. 34 under point 2, Super Strength, states "This strength is supernatural," and on the same page under point 3, Super Speed, states "Leaping distance is still good because of the Titan's supernatural strength."). Therefore, the class text directly says that they have Supernatural PS, and they have ever since they were introduced.

The bigger issue here, however, is that you are attempting to blame Kevin S for writing the Titan Juicer OCC, but Juicer Uprising was authored by CJ Carella. When Kevin S wrote something in it, he has included "By Kevin Siembadia" to indicate that the he wrote it (as we see with the Juicer Psychosis table or the CS Juicers). Neither the Titan Juicer nor the Juicer variant section has such a by-line; therefore, the evidence would demonstrate that he did not write it.

If you are going to accuse Kevin S of being an unreliable writer, perhaps you should make sure that you aren't being an unreliable reader!