Who's sailing the Scarlet Sea?

[Braden Campbell]

Studying the map of the Known World, I notice today that most of the Scarlet Sea coastline is... undesirable and/or unsettled. My question then is, who's actually sailing around on it? Other than ships of the Western Empire or those heading to Troker, is the sea largely quiet and empty of traffic?

[kiralon]

I thought it was more fishing on the northern coast (southern coast of the western empire) with some trade which I think is mentioned in the western empires book, and the southern coastline is pirate/smuggler coves for hiding from the western empire and the settlement efforts on the southern coast from the western empire failed miserably which is in the baalgor wastelands I think.

[Reagren Wright]

Good question. We know almost nothing about this ocean. Recently did some work trying to provide details about the Algorian Sea, trying to separate it from the North and Eastern Sea.
I think exploring this sea and its activity would be a great Rifter article.

[Braden Campbell]

So... what do we know about the Scarlet Waters?

* Used to be called the Sea of Crystal Waters
* "Again did the two meet, and the slaughter grew so thick and dolorous that rivers of wasted life soaked earth and ran to the west, where it stained the Sea of Crystal Waters forever Scarlet." [Balgor Wastelands, pg 13, referring to the Dwarf/Elf War]
* "i've looked in my copy of high seas (1E), and the scarlet seas are among the most poisonous in the known world... snakes, sponges, jellyfish, algae, you name it, its possibly going to be poisonous..." [posted by Poison Dwarf, Jan 2006]
* there has to be something worth raiding along the Old Kingdom coast, because pirates are currently doing so [Balgor Wastelands, pg 76]
*

[The Beast]

I was just about to say that until the Old Kingdoms book gets made we don't have much of an answer for you Brandon.

[Braden Campbell]

I entertained the notion last night perhaps the Orc/Ogre forces might build ships there in an attempt to get around the Western Empire's defenses in the Tarldet Plains/OK Frontier region (lets just call that piece of land "the Neck" of simplicity's sake)... but although Ogres could technically be sailors or even pirates, Orcs seem to lack the skill to build ships, and Kobolds, who could probably do it in a flash, don't care enough about either race to construct sea-going vessels.

So... likely, no to orc corsairs operating out of the Old Kingdom Coast.

[The Beast]

Who said that the orcs have to build their ships?

[Braden Campbell]

Oh, no one... but I'm not sure right now who else in that area might do it.

Some Kildred perhaps? (see, book #14, pg 73)

[Library Ogre]

Kobold-built ships, crewed by orcs and ogres, financed with money from land raiding.

All it takes is one clever ogre with a taste for sea air and enough cash to get kobolds interested...

[dreicunan]

Kobold-built ships, crewed by orcs and ogres, financed with money from land raiding.

All it takes is one clever ogre with a taste for sea air and enough cash to get kobolds interested...

Wouldn't it be enough to just get a few kobolds with the know-how to supervise ship construction?

(If I were going to do this, however, I would cut out the ogres and kobolds and instead have it be Da Boyz who had someone been sent hurling through the immaterium and breaching through multiple multiverses before they ended up being Da Pyrates of Da Skarlet Sea...in red ships, of course, because the red ones go faster. The idea of the Palladium fantasy world having to band together to stamp them out before a WAAAGH gets going amuses me).

[Braden Campbell]

This is somewhat solved if we simply put an ancient Elven port on the Scarlet Coast (I chose the southern point of the large cove found in the northern half). It only makes sense that something might have existed there following the destruction of Baalgor (the cove is hidden under the map legend in the "History of the Dire Conflict" maps (LoB, pg 134-136), explaining why few have ever been there or even know of its existence.

Such a port (I'll call it... "Valquinal") could easily have had ship-building facilities, and was perhaps instrumental in the Diaspora 4000 years ago when the elves finally abandoned the Old kingdom. Soon after, the port falls to barbarian hordes, is forgotten about, and currently is controlled by... whomever we like.

[Reagren Wright]

So... what do we know about the Scarlet Waters?

* Used to be called the Sea of Crystal Waters
* "Again did the two meet, and the slaughter grew so thick and dolorous that rivers of wasted life soaked earth and ran to the west, where it stained the Sea of Crystal Waters forever Scarlet." [Balgor Wastelands, pg 13, referring to the Dwarf/Elf War]
* "i've looked in my copy of high seas (1E), and the scarlet seas are among the most poisonous in the known world... snakes, sponges, jellyfish, algae, you name it, its possibly going to be poisonous..." [posted by Poison Dwarf, Jan 2006]
* there has to be something worth raiding along the Old Kingdom coast, because pirates are currently doing so [Balgor Wastelands, pg 76]
*

Where in first edition high seas did he find that reference to the water being poisonous?

[Prysus]

So... what do we know about the Scarlet Waters?

* Used to be called the Sea of Crystal Waters
* "Again did the two meet, and the slaughter grew so thick and dolorous that rivers of wasted life soaked earth and ran to the west, where it stained the Sea of Crystal Waters forever Scarlet." [Balgor Wastelands, pg 13, referring to the Dwarf/Elf War]
* "i've looked in my copy of high seas (1E), and the scarlet seas are among the most poisonous in the known world... snakes, sponges, jellyfish, algae, you name it, its possibly going to be poisonous..." [posted by Poison Dwarf, Jan 2006]
* there has to be something worth raiding along the Old Kingdom coast, because pirates are currently doing so [Balgor Wastelands, pg 76]
*

Where in first edition high seas did he find that reference to the water being poisonous?

Greetings and Salutations. So, seeing both of the above quotes, I decided to do some searching. This is what I found in Adventures on the High Seas ...

1: Though Baalgor Wastelands page 13 (quote provided above) suggests that the name comes from an Elf-Dwarf War battle, Adventures on the High Seas (page 111 of 1st Edition) has an interesting line: "Lo, a battle raged until the sea turned crimson (presumably this is the Sea of Scarlet Waters) ..." This quote is from the Tristine Chronicles, and regards a Titan and Cyclops battle. This battle took place "before the Elves' rose to dominance." Note: This passage is in AotHS Second Edition as well, but removes the "presumably this is the Sea of Scarlet Waters" line.
2: I can find no reference to poisonous waters. I looked, but found no such claims. I can't even find things list of marine life in the area.
3: AotHS 1st on page 98 (page 92 in 2nd) the writer mentions encountering 2,562 Western Empire naval ships (plus around 10,000-15,000 barges, fishing boats, etc.). These numbers were taken over the course of 71 days after circling most of the coast of the Scarlet Waters, and the author estimates their numbers to be 4,250 total. 216 ships of "Bizantium manufacture" were encountered in the same time frame. Note: This is if we are to take the Bizantium captain at his word and his counts accurate.
4: The northern entrance to the Sea of Scarlet Waters (between the Western Empire and two islands) is noted as being "particularly difficult" (and that's by Bizantium sailor standards). This is also the area where a Demon Black Ship was encountered. This could be an area where the Western Empire builds them (as it's not an easy place to store them), unless Western Empire gives more specifics?
5: Somewhere on the eastern coast of the Scarlet Waters (western coast of the Old Kingdom) there's a Dwarven village that has fishing captains.
6: Not in the Scarlet Seas, but in a port called Xegon's Hold (from the notes, I'd place this in the Southeast of the Yin-Sloth Jungles, around the area where Mt. Nimro and Land of the South Winds can be seen in that little nook, but I'm not sure if any book gives a more detailed location of this city, but it's east of the southern mountain range in the Yin-Sloth Jungles and before the Land of the South Winds) the fact that the Scarlet Waters is an inland sea is considered a "trade secret" by the local captains (I'm not sure how this helps their trade).
7: Other than their encounter with a Demon Black Ship, the captain talks of no other dangers while sailing within the Scarlet Waters.

*****

8: Monsters & Animals also has the Common Dolphin, Harbor Porpoise, Great White Shark, and Mako Shark in those waters. I could not find any sea serpents though.

There might be more references in other books (or more in those books I didn't notice), but I think that's all for tonight. Hopefully some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Lukterran]

The sea of scarlet waters would have a huge trade operation all up and down the coast. Probably taking in rare goods (spices etc..), lumber, slaves from Old Kingdom, Yin-sloth jungles and Baalgor and sending needed items there to the smaller wilderness outposts. Not to mention city-to-city trading all up and down the coast of the Western Empire. With goods and money moving that means pirates would also exist.

[Greyaxe]

This is somewhat solved if we simply put an ancient Elven port on the Scarlet Coast (I chose the southern point of the large cove found in the northern half). It only makes sense that something might have existed there following the destruction of Baalgor (the cove is hidden under the map legend in the "History of the Dire Conflict" maps (LoB, pg 134-136), explaining why few have ever been there or even know of its existence.

Such a port (I'll call it... "Valquinal") could easily have had ship-building facilities, and was perhaps instrumental in the Diaspora 4000 years ago when the elves finally abandoned the Old kingdom. Soon after, the port falls to barbarian hordes, is forgotten about, and currently is controlled by... whomever we like.

I believe you are making an assumption "ship building" is outside orc and ogre technology. What about simple ships like long boats. The Wolven in less than 50 years of experience in building ships have not only built an impressive fleet on these ships they have also upgraded to dragon boats which are larger and possess a greater technology then their long boat predecessors. Who is to say Orcs could not also possess limited ship building technology and attack bigger ships with great numbers or in raiding packs....

[kiralon]

It's a fairly safe assumption I would think, I can't think of any book that mentions a navy of orcs, and while possible to do the Orcs don't seem to have the urge to improve themselves as a race like the wolfen, they prefer to eat, sleep, fight repeat.

[Greyaxe]

It's a fairly safe assumption I would think, I can't think of any book that mentions a navy of orcs, and while possible to do the Orcs don't seem to have the urge to improve themselves as a race like the wolfen, they prefer to eat, sleep, fight repeat.

I would agree with that which is why you wont get high quality ships or ships in good repair. But there is plunder on the waters why not take advantage...

[Braden Campbell]

slaves from Old Kingdom, Yin-sloth jungles and Baalgor...

Ahhhh! Now this is something I hadn't considered; Western Empire slavers.
Thanks.

[kiralon]

It's a fairly safe assumption I would think, I can't think of any book that mentions a navy of orcs, and while possible to do the Orcs don't seem to have the urge to improve themselves as a race like the wolfen, they prefer to eat, sleep, fight repeat.

I would agree with that which is why you wont get high quality ships or ships in good repair. But there is plunder on the waters why not take advantage...

Because they can't build good enough boats to catch the other ships, easier just to wait for a merchant wagon to come along and take everything from that, as the boats have to land somewhere.

[Braden Campbell]

Did there not used to be a troll pirate in High Seas?

[kiralon]

Vunoon the genius troll

[AzathothXy]

It's a fairly safe assumption I would think, I can't think of any book that mentions a navy of orcs, and while possible to do the Orcs don't seem to have the urge to improve themselves as a race like the wolfen, they prefer to eat, sleep, fight repeat.

The Orcish empire from the Yin Sloth book has a small navy to protect its coastline. The ships are small, designed for coastal runs, not deep sea voyages.

[kiralon]

Dammit, I forgot about the Orcish Empire, Always exceptions to the norm, (Can make orcs highly trained legionnaires but making them knights is really difficult ???)but it does reinforce the point that they suck terribly at it, being the worst navy in the world. Certainly wouldn't make for good piracy.

The orcs from the orc kingdom aren't normal orcs and act differently. Those are a copy of wolfen with legionnaires and everything, they even have sorcerers. I will retract my first bit and say they definitely have the discipline, will and nation pride to make a navy. All the women are lore masters/engineers/priests/healers/artists. The wolfen wish they were these guys. The Orcish empire doesn't make sense because it would have to have all the out of the ordinary orcs.

To me its just more of the world has only existed for a short time but had a history made for it that doesn't make sense as the orcs don't act like the evil stupid thugs they are Orcish Empire just shows more of the world has only existed for a couple of days but had a history made for it and the orcs will revert back to being palladium orcs rather than warcraft orcs.

I don't think they are orcs, they are non furry wolfen , but that is a discussion for another thread.

[Soldier of Od]

5: Somewhere on the eastern coast of the Scarlet Waters (western coast of the Old Kingdom) there's a Dwarven village that has fishing captains.

Coincidentally I keep reading posts that reference subjects covered in my latest Rifter article - I'm not trying to self-promote it, honest! I described this dwarven village in my article about the city of Khemennu, Rifters #77 & 78 (the village is mentioned in #78).

[Library Ogre]

This is somewhat solved if we simply put an ancient Elven port on the Scarlet Coast (I chose the southern point of the large cove found in the northern half). It only makes sense that something might have existed there following the destruction of Baalgor (the cove is hidden under the map legend in the "History of the Dire Conflict" maps (LoB, pg 134-136), explaining why few have ever been there or even know of its existence.

Such a port (I'll call it... "Valquinal") could easily have had ship-building facilities, and was perhaps instrumental in the Diaspora 4000 years ago when the elves finally abandoned the Old kingdom. Soon after, the port falls to barbarian hordes, is forgotten about, and currently is controlled by... whomever we like.

I believe you are making an assumption "ship building" is outside orc and ogre technology. What about simple ships like long boats. The Wolven in less than 50 years of experience in building ships have not only built an impressive fleet on these ships they have also upgraded to dragon boats which are larger and possess a greater technology then their long boat predecessors. Who is to say Orcs could not also possess limited ship building technology and attack bigger ships with great numbers or in raiding packs....

Have the wolfen only been building ships for 50 years? The Sea Hawk tribe eats a lot of fish, and the Two Axe were known as pirates, before the Empire.

Not saying you're wrong about ship-building... ogres are noted as being capable craftsmen if they choose... but I always had the Wolfen as being at least coast-huggers before the empire.

[glitterboy2098]

Wolfen ship though are norse style longships, which are one of the few types of early medieval shipbuilding that actually works really well for both shallow and deep water. so i suspect they had deep water experience.

however, their ships are not terribly well suited to oceanic combat, being unable to mount any sort of weaponry, so i suspect their navy would likely be limited to uses more in line with logistical support and amphibious assault.

the Two Axe tribe probably were viking style coastal raiders.

[Library Ogre]

Wolfen ship though are norse style longships, which are one of the few types of early medieval shipbuilding that actually works really well for both shallow and deep water. so i suspect they had deep water experience.

however, their ships are not terribly well suited to oceanic combat, being unable to mount any sort of weaponry, so i suspect their navy would likely be limited to uses more in line with logistical support and amphibious assault.

the Two Axe tribe probably were viking style coastal raiders.

The Two Axe entry in Book 4 says they were river-raiders before, and the Dragonships were an evolution of their old style, and more suited to deep water.

[Reagren Wright]

Seahawk Wolfen Tribe doesn't build Long Boats or Dragon Boats, but deep-hulled ships like those of
Bizantium and the Eastern Territory. However, the Wolfen seem to have a reluctance to sail on the
ocean particularly the North Sea. This who Scarlet Water has me intrigued that there is so little
information about this sea. Whatever you got planned Brandon run with it.

[Braden Campbell]

It might not be canon by any stretch, but I still like the idea of at least one, major, ancient Elven port on the OK Coast. I also like the idea that said port is currently, or has been, a harbourage for Western Empire slave ships. Either now, or shortly to come, elements within the Old Kingdom (orc horde, led by Ogres, and backed by a Kildred sorcerer or two) will take over said port, and abscond with the Western ships. Thus, we could have Orcish fleets running around with relatively advanced ships - they didn't build them, they just stole them.

I'm also thinking it's a prime location for some kind of underwater species who once called the Crystal Sea their home (and who were generally a nice people), but now live in the Scarlet - bloodtainted- Sea (and have thus become infused with hatred and violence). Old tropes are still sometimes the best ones...

[Hotrod]

The Western Empire would likely do a great deal of traffic in the Sea of Scarlet Waters along its northern shores. This would mostly be sailing along the coast, except for the stretch of sea between the Old Kingdom colonies and the Scarlet Mountains provinces of the Western Empire, where straight East/West sailing is practical and destinations can be found by latitude (latitude is easy to work out, longitude is tricky). The Empire would also do a lot of trading, traffic, and patrols along and across the sea's western straits. Passing or trading through the straits would be complicated and likely involve some smuggling/false papers for merchants who want to work between the Baalgor coast and the Orc kingdoms of the Yin Sloth jungles.

The Baalgor Wastelands would have some significant trade running along the coasts and north to the Western Empire. Troker sees considerable traffic (though trading there would be risky), and there would also be some occasional trade among smaller settlements like Thunder Rock and Greentree. Many trade ships would also be pirate when it suits them, and there are plenty of pirate havens along the southern coast.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some north-south traffic crossing the Sea of Scarlet Waters. This would mostly happen in the western straits, where the open sea distance to cross would be only 50-100 miles, a distance short enough to use dead reckoning to hit one of the islands in the straits and minimize the risks of getting caught at sea in a storm. There would be a great deal of traffic in this region, both legitimate and criminal.

Other than crossing the northern bay east-west as I mentioned before, it would be pretty uncommon to see ships crossing the open Sea of Scarlet Waters at its wider points north-south. Such a route would involve several key risks. The first is navigational: dead reckoning is inexact at the best of times, there are very few ways to accurately measure your longitude (east-west movement) with anything less than late-19th century technology, and all of those methods suck (which is why maps from the 1500s and 1600s look like this). The second hazard is from the sea itself: there aren't any islands to speak of, so there's nowhere to beach your ship for repairs and no bays to use as shelter from a storm. Western ships aren't generally great at handling rough seas. The final danger is that if you take such a route and you get into trouble, there probably won't be anyone who can help you, since very few ships cross that way. However, that last risk is also what makes a deep-sea north-south crossing appealing to some. Since most of the sea traffic in the Palladium Fantasy world tends to skirt the coast, a straight north-south crossing route across the Sea of Scarlet Waters would have a lot of appeal to captains seeking to avoid other ships.

With that in mind, most ships sailing north-south across the open sea will fall into one of three categories. The first and most-common is criminal: pirates from the Baalgor Wastelands coasts coming to raid the ports and fishing villages along the southern coast of the Western Empire or evade Imperial Navy patrols and smugglers looking to sell cheaply-purchased stolen goods in the richer markets of the empire and buy goods that can't be made in the Baalgor Wastelands. The second category is the Western Empire's navy as it plays cat-and-mouse with the pirates. The third category of north-south open sea shipping is made up of ships trafficking people, either to establish/supply the small colonies along the Baalgor shores and avoid the pirates of Baalgor's coast, or to capture slaves and return them to the markets of the Western Empire without giving them opportunities to escape and swim to shore.

(I've done a lot of thinking about navigation in Palladium Fantasy as part of an article I wrote up a few months ago on navigation and cartography in Palladium, sorry for the long reply)

[Library Ogre]

* "i've looked in my copy of high seas (1E), and the scarlet seas are among the most poisonous in the known world... snakes, sponges, jellyfish, algae, you name it, its possibly going to be poisonous..." [posted by Poison Dwarf, Jan 2006]

I've been wondering about this line. Citing the animals, do you think they perhaps meant "the animals of the Scarlet Seas are among the most poisonous in the known world"? That would leave the waters themselves non-poisonous (which no one has found support for), but leave the waters with a lot of poisonous creatures.

[Braden Campbell]

Thanks for that, Hotrod.

(wishes this board had a "like post" or "thanks" function...)

On a related note: think the Scarlet Sea is deep or shallow?

[Library Ogre]

I lean towards VERY deep.

It might just be a stylistic choice, but look at the rest of the oceans. Close to the shore, there's a lot of stippling... the Inland Sea of Phi and Lopan is almost entirely stippled, and you get a lot off the north coast of the Land of the Damned, as well.

The Sea of Scarlet Waters? Nothing. A narrow bit next to the land, and then pure white, like the deepest open ocean. It might just be stylistic, or so there'd be clarity around the words. But a glance at that map tells me that the sea is very deep.

[Hotrod]

Thanks for that, Hotrod.

(wishes this board had a "like post" or "thanks" function...)

On a related note: think the Scarlet Sea is deep or shallow?

Thanks for the kind words! On the subject of depth, it's difficult to say, as there's little in the published canon that speaks to bathymetry outside of a very few passages, and those passages usually describe specific locations. If there's anything in canon about it, you'd probably find it in Baalgor Wastelands, Western Empire, or Bletherad. I haven't researched this part of the world all that much yet for mapping.

You might use the Yellow Sea as a real-life reference for determining the depth of the Sea of Scarlet Waters. Since it takes a LOT of material to change the color of a big volume of water, this would suggest a fairly shallow depth of maybe 150 feet or so on average.

[Braden Campbell]

There must be rivers emptying into it as well (although, not from the Baalgor side )

Scarlet rivers pouring into the Scarlet Sea?

[The Beast]

Thanks for that, Hotrod.

(wishes this board had a "like post" or "thanks" function...)

On a related note: think the Scarlet Sea is deep or shallow?

My guess on that is that it'll have roughly the same average depth as the Mediterranean Sea.

* "i've looked in my copy of high seas (1E), and the scarlet seas are among the most poisonous in the known world... snakes, sponges, jellyfish, algae, you name it, its possibly going to be poisonous..." [posted by Poison Dwarf, Jan 2006]

I've been wondering about this line. Citing the animals, do you think they perhaps meant "the animals of the Scarlet Seas are among the most poisonous in the known world"? That would leave the waters themselves non-poisonous (which no one has found support for), but leave the waters with a lot of poisonous creatures.

My guess on that is since there are animals included in that passage then it's talking about the wildlife and not the water itself.

[Reagren Wright]

This feels like a collboration. Hey most of the trading the Western Empire does would
be around the Sea of Scarlet Water because its safer. Western Empire has a narrow
strip to sail through to get into the Great Inland Sea and that straight is full of sea
serpents bred to attack and destroy any ship that tries approaching the opposite
shore. I also like the idea that there's something in the sea that keeps it relatively
free of sea serpents giving the West a great opportunity to exploint the region.

[Knowing Telepath]

Since we mentioned sea travel, I figured I would share a rule of wrist that many historians use to determine distances during Ancient/Medieval travels. It is the 1:7:21 ratio. The distance traveled on a boat in 1 day equals the distance traveled on a horse in 7 days and equals the distance traveled on foot in 21 days. Obviously not 100% precise, but might be helpful for you one day.

[Greyaxe]

This is somewhat solved if we simply put an ancient Elven port on the Scarlet Coast (I chose the southern point of the large cove found in the northern half). It only makes sense that something might have existed there following the destruction of Baalgor (the cove is hidden under the map legend in the "History of the Dire Conflict" maps (LoB, pg 134-136), explaining why few have ever been there or even know of its existence.

Such a port (I'll call it... "Valquinal") could easily have had ship-building facilities, and was perhaps instrumental in the Diaspora 4000 years ago when the elves finally abandoned the Old kingdom. Soon after, the port falls to barbarian hordes, is forgotten about, and currently is controlled by... whomever we like.

I believe you are making an assumption "ship building" is outside orc and ogre technology. What about simple ships like long boats. The Wolven in less than 50 years of experience in building ships have not only built an impressive fleet on these ships they have also upgraded to dragon boats which are larger and possess a greater technology then their long boat predecessors. Who is to say Orcs could not also possess limited ship building technology and attack bigger ships with great numbers or in raiding packs....

Have the wolfen only been building ships for 50 years? The Sea Hawk tribe eats a lot of fish, and the Two Axe were known as pirates, before the Empire.

Not saying you're wrong about ship-building... ogres are noted as being capable craftsmen if they choose... but I always had the Wolfen as being at least coast-huggers before the empire.

I wasn't saying they only built ships during the empire but they did upgrade their ship building in 50 years to produce dragon boats

[Hotrod]

Not that wolfen ships are relevant to a discussion about the Sea of Scarlet Waters, but it seems to me that coast-hugging sailing would be the norm for their ships (as it is in most places in the known world). Most of their cities are on the northern and western shores of the Algorian Sea, or upriver from those coasts, so there's little need to cross the open ocean, and I don't think there's much pirate activity in that area. The one place where wolfen ships would cross the open sea would be voyages to Y-Oda, but that's only about 60 miles of open sea to cross, with an island that is 100 miles wide north-south to aim for.

Their ships may be like Viking ships of yore, but the wolfen empire doesn't seem to be interested in making voyages of discovery; the wolfen already have more frontier and virgin wilderness than they can handle.

[Braden Campbell]

This feels like a collboration...

Looking at the Old Kingdom shoreline in particular, I'm going to suggest that it's a prime habitat for some Crab Warriors (see, Rifts: Coalition navy, pg 100). They're easy enough to convert over...I just have to figure out a fair Natural Armor Rating for them.

[kiralon]

This feels like a collboration...

Looking at the Old Kingdom shoreline in particular, I'm going to suggest that it's a prime habitat for some Crab Warriors (see, Rifts: Coalition navy, pg 100). They're easy enough to convert over...I just have to figure out a fair Natural Armor Rating for them.

Check Page 105 of monsters and animals for Kappa. The western empire think they have wiped em out but havent

[Braden Campbell]

UPDATE: While scanning through the old, 1st edition Fantasy Main Book, I cam across a page that highlights the major sea trade routes. The Western Empire does indeed sail the entire circumference of the Scarlet Sea, from the straights, 'round the OK Coast, and back again... and they are the only ones. The Empire seems to have the this particular body of water all sewn up.

[Reagren Wright]

UPDATE: While scanning through the old, 1st edition Fantasy Main Book, I cam across a page that highlights the major sea trade routes. The Western Empire does indeed sail the entire circumference of the Scarlet Sea, from the straights, 'round the OK Coast, and back again... and they are the only ones. The Empire seems to have the this particular body of water all sewn up.

Which 1st edition book Branden?

[glitterboy2098]

UPDATE: While scanning through the old, 1st edition Fantasy Main Book, I cam across a page that highlights the major sea trade routes. The Western Empire does indeed sail the entire circumference of the Scarlet Sea, from the straights, 'round the OK Coast, and back again... and they are the only ones. The Empire seems to have the this particular body of water all sewn up.

so rather like the romans and the black sea.

[Prysus]

UPDATE: While scanning through the old, 1st edition Fantasy Main Book, I cam across a page that highlights the major sea trade routes. The Western Empire does indeed sail the entire circumference of the Scarlet Sea, from the straights, 'round the OK Coast, and back again... and they are the only ones. The Empire seems to have the this particular body of water all sewn up.

Which 1st edition book Branden?

Greetings and Salutations. To answer your question, he mentioned "Main Book." Using that as my starting point, I think I found the area he's referring to. Page 245, at the top, has a map of "Sea Trade Routes." I have to admit, I somehow missed this map every time prior. I think it's because the map on 244 is the same from PF2, and the map on 245 at the bottom I believe is the same from Monsters & Animals. My mind must've just skipped the other map prior to this.

While it does show only the Western Empire in the area, the "Sea Trade Routes" only show routes for Western Empire, Eastern Territory, and Land of the South-Wind. This means the map doesn't consider Bizantium, or any non-colonies of the three above in the Old Kingdom Mountains or other locations. As stated earlier, Adventures on the High Seas does mention Bizantium ships (or at least those of Bizantium design) in the area. Admittedly the Western Empire (based on the AotHS numbers) has 20 to 100 times more ships in the area (depending on if we limit those numbers to only certain types of ships or not), making them easily the dominant or primary holders of the area. Since this borders much of the Western Empire and many of its colonies, this probably shouldn't be a surprise. I just don't think I'd say they're the only ones, especially since the map doesn't include many of the other kingdoms.

Anyways, hope the reference helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.