Can individual shotgun pellets be enchanted via Enchant Wpn?

[Mlp7029]

If individual pellets can be enchanted then you could have 40 pellets or more doing 2D6 each in a single shell. Using a rail gun burst as a go by then 40 rounds at 2D6 MD each should give 2D6x10 MD.

[Mack]

Hmm... There should be a minimum size on what can be enchanted. Otherwise one could spend some time (and a ton of PPE) enchanting grains of sand to create a short range giga-damage shotgun shell.

Since we know bullets can be enchanted, I'd probably set the minimum size to about 0.18" (the size of a BB, and a decent sized birdshot). Getting 40 to 70 of 'em in a shell is reasonable and would pack a wallop. Also, there's plenty of ballistics data on the internet for that kind of shell, so with a just a bit of research one could figure out how to apply it in the game. I may dig around a little and see what I can come up with. (Shotgun blasts are annoying because you have to either forego realism for a simple mechanic, or do a trigonometry problem for every blast.)

Or, for simplicity, just take the SDC damage listed on RUE p329 for shotguns and convert it to MD. You'd still get 6D6 MD from heavy shot, and double that on a double blast.

Only thing I'd add is that the mage would have to enchant the pellets before they're loaded in the shell (as opposed to enchanting the shell).

[Killer Cyborg]

IIRC, bullets enchanted via this spell are one-time use only, in which case I'd rule that they have to be enchanted on the cartridge level when applicable. So with modern shotguns at least, you'd enchant an entire shotgun shell which would function as one weapon regardless of the number of pellets within it.

[Mack]

IIRC, bullets enchanted via this spell are one-time use only, in which case I'd rule that they have to be enchanted on the cartridge level when applicable. So with modern shotguns at least, you'd enchant an entire shotgun shell which would function as one weapon regardless of the number of pellets within it.

I think we're in agreement here. I wouldn't allow someone to enchant 72 shotgun shells in a single casting. It would be one casting (400 PPE) for each shell.

[Killer Cyborg]

IIRC, bullets enchanted via this spell are one-time use only, in which case I'd rule that they have to be enchanted on the cartridge level when applicable. So with modern shotguns at least, you'd enchant an entire shotgun shell which would function as one weapon regardless of the number of pellets within it.

I think we're in agreement here. I wouldn't allow someone to enchant 72 shotgun shells in a single casting. It would be one casting (400 PPE) for each shell.

[eliakon]

I would say no.
My reasoning is that as soon as you pack the pellets inside the shell they stop being their own weapon and the spell is dispelled.
Magic follows rules of magical logic. That is why magic is based on elements for example, or why light is healing and so many other 'conceptual' ideas. And one of those conceptual ideas is that a weapon is a weapon. Not a part.
Thus to be a weapon an object must itself be the weapon not simply a sub-munition of the weapon. If you want though you can research a "Enchant Sub-Munitions" spell...

The main reason here is that I am cutting the nose off of this camel before it gets into the tent. I have no interest in hand weapons doing billions of points of damage in my game and thus I am quick to nip such shenanigans off in the bud.

[Tick]

I say yes - mind you, it would take you a life time to build one single shot. PPE is required and that takes time. Packing the bullet takes time, and of course there is a chance of failure if done incorrectly. That would be funny. Why not - there is a spread pattern so you could have a special rule to determine how many hit and what that looks like too. Interesting topic but not likely to really work well. I would stream line the process with enchanted casing or some such thing so each shot has a special effect.

[Tick]

I would say no.
My reasoning is that as soon as you pack the pellets inside the shell they stop being their own weapon and the spell is dispelled.
Magic follows rules of magical logic. That is why magic is based on elements for example, or why light is healing and so many other 'conceptual' ideas. And one of those conceptual ideas is that a weapon is a weapon. Not a part.
Thus to be a weapon an object must itself be the weapon not simply a sub-munition of the weapon. If you want though you can research a "Enchant Sub-Munitions" spell...

The main reason here is that I am cutting the nose off of this camel before it gets into the tent. I have no interest in hand weapons doing billions of points of damage in my game and thus I am quick to nip such shenanigans off in the bud.

I agree that this is likely the case as it is wrapped in tech of sorts but you could have a TW round or regular bullet in stead of individual pellets. A casing effect on all the pellets. I explained an option below that might work. But PPE and time are factors that limit the process to begin with in shot guns.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I voted no for a few reasons.
1) KISS factor. there would be too much paperwork to do to allow this. the GM needing to be there for all the enchantments rolls for each of the pellets.
2) Is that a shotgun shell is one item for enchanting stuff.
3) you didn't specify which enchantment you'd use to gain the effect. Yes, this makes a big difference.
4) This has all the hallmarks of a munchkin trying to sidestep around 'game balance' ideas.

[Mack]

1) KISS factor. there would be too much paperwork to do to allow this. the GM needing to be there for all the enchantments rolls for each of the pellets.

What enchantment roll are you referring to? I don't recall the Enchant Weapon spell requiring a roll. Also, the spell expressly affects up to 72 bullets at once, which is the right number of pellets for a shotgun shell.

And I agree that the mage would need to enchant the pile of pellets, then later load them into a shotgun shell.



(Hmm... I could really munchkin this up as a TW shotgun that enchants the pellets when fired. I may do that just for fun. )

-------EDIT-------
I just did some quick math... this generates a ridiculous amount of damage. At point-blank range, where all 72 pellets hit for 2D6 MD, the average damage is 504 MD. And a double barrel blast would average 1008 MD. So for 800 PPE and the time to build the shells, you've got a one-time GlitterBoy killer blast on your hands.

[Shark_Force]

i doubt it takes terribly long to pack a shotgun shell (and it doesn't need the mage), and 800 PPE only sounds like a lot until you can get ley line access. it's pretty silly.

[dragonfett]

Yeah, then you sacrifice PPE to make it a permanent enchantment, or it loses it's enchantment in 1 month/caster level, and you have to wait 3 months before you can cast the spell again.

[Mack]

That’s one thing I was internally debating: the way the sentences are structured I’m not sure if the repeat casting limitation is for just permanent enchantments or for both temporary and permanent.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yeah, then you sacrifice PPE to make it a permanent enchantment, or it loses it's enchantment in 1 month/caster level, and you have to wait 3 months before you can cast the spell again.

This is only if you use the Rifts' (mis-named) Enchant Weapon (minor) invocation.
If using the enchant weapon spells from NB durations range from days to months to perm. And they work differently (less stupidly in my opinion) then the rifts invocation. These enchant the projectile weapon itself and it co-ops the ammunition into the magic.
Yes, the limitation is that they only give extra damage vs the SN. But when monster hunting, this is not a downside when considering the possibility of freindly fire will not be as bad to the mortals on the team. The down side it that there is no extra damage when the weapon is turned on mechanics.

[dreicunan]

Yeah, then you sacrifice PPE to make it a permanent enchantment, or it loses it's enchantment in 1 month/caster level, and you have to wait 3 months before you can cast the spell again.

This is only if you use the Rifts' (mis-named) Enchant Weapon (minor) invocation.
If using the enchant weapon spells from NB durations range from days to months to perm. And they work differently (less stupidly in my opinion) then the rifts invocation. These enchant the projectile weapon itself and it co-ops the ammunition into the magic.
Yes, the limitation is that they only give extra damage vs the SN. But when monster hunting, this is not a downside when considering the possibility of freindly fire will not be as bad to the mortals on the team. The down side it that there is no extra damage when the weapon is turned on mechanics.

Out of curiosity, why do you consider the Rifts spell to be mis-named?

That Nightbane ritual is rather potent, especially since there is no limit stated to how often you use it and no permanent cost. He didn't stay in the campaign long enough to get around to it, but we did have a guy once with a Nightbane based sorcerer who had gotten that spell. His plan was basically to move to Rifts earth and profit from selling his services.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It is level 15 and it is called "(minor)".

[dreicunan]

It is level 15 and it is called "(minor)".

Fair enough. I always figured that the "minor" was to distinguish distinguish the weapons it produces from major ones like what alchemists make or rune weapons, not the spell itsekf, but I can see your point.

[The Beast]

It is level 15 and it is called "(minor)".

Fair enough. I always figured that the "minor" was to distinguish distinguish the weapons it produces from major ones like what alchemists make or rune weapons, not the spell itsekf, but I can see your point.

That is why Palladium added "(Minor)" to the spell's name.

[Axelmania]

What about railgun rounds which don't come in casing? The SAMAS railgun for example, 40 rounds of 1D4 hitting for 1D4x10 (equivalent to 10 single shots)

[Mack]

What about railgun rounds which don't come in casing? The SAMAS railgun for example, 40 rounds of 1D4 hitting for 1D4x10 (equivalent to 10 single shots)

I believe the spell's text addresses that.

[Mlp7029]

What about railgun rounds which don't come in casing? The SAMAS railgun for example, 40 rounds of 1D4 hitting for 1D4x10 (equivalent to 10 single shots)

I believe the spell's text addresses that.

A rail gun cannot be enchanted but the spell says nothing about rail gun ammo.

[Nightmartree]

Personally i'd allow it, it only lasts a few months at most so big nations can't stockpile it massively. It can deal a massive amount of damage but for that amount of PPE that's to be expected, and a shotgun though amazing will need some working to get close enough to make this effective unless the robot is kind enough to come to them. Also if anyone feels the damage is too much say that the small size of the pellets in relation to the bullets results in reduced damage.But as for actual enchanting them I agree.

Short range, Limited ammo, High Cost, Shelf Life...I can't see a character carrying more than a few as trump cards

[Khanibal]

You actually have to enchant each individual pellet to get the shotgun shell to do the 2D6 damage.
If you enchant all 40 slugs in a SAMAS burst, then you can have double damage. Considering them the same approximate size as bullets the closest common number is 360 (I believe), so 5 castings = 9 bursts, and the Deevils will be feeling it. Better park yer butt on a nexus.

[Mlp7029]

That’s one thing I was internally debating: the way the sentences are structured I’m not sure if the repeat casting limitation is for just permanent enchantments or for both temporary and permanent.

We play it's for the permanent enchantments. Nukes the spell too bad if it isn't. We also play the 1 month per level applies to temporarily enchanted melee weapons not 1 shot missile weapons. Again the spell is not useful enough for its level and PPE cost if you carry the limitations to the extreme.

[torjones]

Nothing in Enchant Weapon (Minor) suggests any minimum size, so I vote yes, it's possible, just not necessarily feasible.

When the ritual is performed, any one melee weapon, 48 bolts/arrows or 72 bullets can be infused with mystical energy.

Given that, I would say that you'd be limited to 72 pellets, and I might even double the number for something like birdshot if it weren't for the line that said bullets regardless of caliber do 2d6 each. The reason that I would rule this way is that #00 buckshot is basically the same diameter as a 9mm slug, and nobody would say that a 9mm slug shouldn't be able to be enchanted under this spell. Since they are essentially the same thing, I see no reason not to allow it.

Get much smaller than #00 buckshot, and you need too many pellets to make up a load for the spell to be cost-effective. It's 400 PPE for 72 pellets @ 2d6 each. That shotgun shell loaded with birdshot may do a whole mess of damage, but how many of the things can you afford to make, and how often? Especially considering that they only remain enchanted for 1 month/level.

[dreicunan]

Nothing in Enchant Weapon (Minor) suggests any minimum size, so I vote yes, it's possible, just not necessarily feasible.

When the ritual is performed, any one melee weapon, 48 bolts/arrows or 72 bullets can be infused with mystical energy.

Given that, I would say that you'd be limited to 72 pellets, and I might even double the number for something like birdshot if it weren't for the line that said bullets regardless of caliber do 2d6 each. The reason that I would rule this way is that #00 buckshot is basically the same diameter as a 9mm slug, and nobody would say that a 9mm slug shouldn't be able to be enchanted under this spell. Since they are essentially the same thing, I see no reason not to allow it.

Get much smaller than #00 buckshot, and you need too many pellets to make up a load for the spell to be cost-effective. It's 400 PPE for 72 pellets @ 2d6 each. That shotgun shell loaded with birdshot may do a whole mess of damage, but how many of the things can you afford to make, and how often? Especially considering that they only remain enchanted for 1 month/level.

Well, get yourself a Techno-wizard and a Black Garnet, have it only cast in the temporary version, so it's a 4000 ppe construction cost, then get yourself a 5 caret black garnet and the activation cost is only 40 ppe. 8 carets is 25 ppe activation cost, and 10 carets is 20 ppe. If the limitation is read to only affect you when you make them permanent, then you could produce enough shells to be of concern to people.

Or just make a bunch of them as ley line devices and not have to worry about spending your ppe on them.

[Mack]

Well, get yourself a Techno-wizard and a Black Garnet, have it only cast in the temporary version, so it's a 4000 ppe construction cost, then get yourself a 5 caret black garnet and the activation cost is only 40 ppe. 8 carets is 25 ppe activation cost, and 10 carets is 20 ppe. If the limitation is read to only affect you when you make them permanent, then you could produce enough shells to be of concern to people.

Or just make a bunch of them as ley line devices and not have to worry about spending your ppe on them.

That is a by-the-book answer, but it's one I see very few GM's allowing. There's lots of things in TW creation that can easily be abused (I designed a Ressurection machine for only 5,000cr) and this falls into that category.

YMMV.