Wolfen vs Humans with Math
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Wolfen vs Humans with Math
I've seen discussion threads on these boards over the years about how a war between the Wolfen and the Dominion of Man would go. Almost every one of these discussions, however, came down to qualitative arguments. While those are fun, I thought it might be interesting to break it down mathematically.
According to Lanchester's linear law, ancient battles essentially come down to a large collection of one-on-one fights, and both sides lose people until one side runs out of enough people to hold a battle formation. For simplicity's sake, I'll assume that both sides consist of 3rd-level soldiers, all Imperial troops are wolfen, and all Dominion troops are human. I'll assume that the armor for both sides is essentially the same, and can therefore be ignored. I'll assume that the weapons used by both sides are weapons that do 2D6 damage in their standard human size.
In terms of damage: All Wolfen weapons are giant-sized and inflict an extra die of damage. Wolfen strength is 15, and all soldiers get Body Building, granting an additional +2 to strength, bringing them to a P.S. Of 17, which confers a +2 damage bonus. For a longsword or falchion, this means that human soldiers inflict 2D6 damage, while wolfen soldiers inflict 3D6+2. A human soldier will inflict a median damage of 7 points per hit, while wolfen will inflict a median damage of 12.5. In melee combat, the average wolfen soldier can be expected to inflict 78% more damage than the average human soldier.
Additionally, according to Eastern Territory p42, Wolfen use yellow wood for virtually all their spears and pole-arms, giving them a +2 to damage. Additionally, the median Wolfen spears and pole-arms therefore inflict 3D6+4 for basic, standard-issue weapon, while human spears inflict 2D6. That's a median damage roll of 14.5 points for Wolfen, compared to a median damage of 7 points for humans. In melee combat, an average spear or pole-armed wolfen soldier can be expected to inflict 107% more damage than an average human soldier.
Since Wolfen use swords and pila (throwing spears) as standard weapons, I'll average these damage advantages, so for the purposes of this model, Wolfen inflict 93% more damage than humans.
Now let's look at the amount of damage it takes to defeat each soldier. Wolfen and humans both have a P.E. of 3D6 for a median of 10.5, which I'll round down to 10. Assuming a roll of 3 more hit points for each level, the average level 3 human soldier has 20 S.D.C. and 16 Hit Points, for a total of 36. Wolfen get a racial bonus of 20 S.D.C. points, giving them a total of 56.
It therefore takes a human soldier about 8 hits on average to defeat a wolfen soldier, while it takes 2.67 hits on average for a wolfen soldier to defeat a human soldier. Thus, for every wolfen soldier that dies, three human soldiers die.
Now let's look at the numbers of available troops known to be in the Disputed Lands for a border war. There are nine Imperial Legions deployed to the border of the Disputed Zone, for a total of 45,000 troops. The Iron Claw tribal army is larger than the Imperial Army, at 100,000, and has the best weapons and equipment of any tribal or imperial force in the Wolfen Empire. I'll assume no help from the Diamond Point Horde's army or other member state forces, so we have a total of 145,000 wolfen ready to put into a border fight.
By contrast, there are only two areas near the border where the Dominion or its allies hold sway. The first is Southwatch, a fortress city of 27,000. The other is Northolme, with about 1,100 ready troops and another 12,000 dwarves who could be pressed into service in an emergency (which I will assume will be as effective as human soldiers). That's a total of 40,000 Dominion troops with very generous assumptions.
Applying Lanchester's linear law, the Wolfen Empire would annihilate Southwatch and Northolme's combined strength of 40,000. in open combat, losing about 13,000 troops in the process and retaining 132,000 troops in the area.
Even without considering the shorter supply lines of the Wolfen, their ability to track by smell, their natural weapons, their superior speed, and their initiative bonus, That's a stacked deck.
What kinds of factors could balance out these advantages and make the war more interesting?
According to Lanchester's linear law, ancient battles essentially come down to a large collection of one-on-one fights, and both sides lose people until one side runs out of enough people to hold a battle formation. For simplicity's sake, I'll assume that both sides consist of 3rd-level soldiers, all Imperial troops are wolfen, and all Dominion troops are human. I'll assume that the armor for both sides is essentially the same, and can therefore be ignored. I'll assume that the weapons used by both sides are weapons that do 2D6 damage in their standard human size.
In terms of damage: All Wolfen weapons are giant-sized and inflict an extra die of damage. Wolfen strength is 15, and all soldiers get Body Building, granting an additional +2 to strength, bringing them to a P.S. Of 17, which confers a +2 damage bonus. For a longsword or falchion, this means that human soldiers inflict 2D6 damage, while wolfen soldiers inflict 3D6+2. A human soldier will inflict a median damage of 7 points per hit, while wolfen will inflict a median damage of 12.5. In melee combat, the average wolfen soldier can be expected to inflict 78% more damage than the average human soldier.
Additionally, according to Eastern Territory p42, Wolfen use yellow wood for virtually all their spears and pole-arms, giving them a +2 to damage. Additionally, the median Wolfen spears and pole-arms therefore inflict 3D6+4 for basic, standard-issue weapon, while human spears inflict 2D6. That's a median damage roll of 14.5 points for Wolfen, compared to a median damage of 7 points for humans. In melee combat, an average spear or pole-armed wolfen soldier can be expected to inflict 107% more damage than an average human soldier.
Since Wolfen use swords and pila (throwing spears) as standard weapons, I'll average these damage advantages, so for the purposes of this model, Wolfen inflict 93% more damage than humans.
Now let's look at the amount of damage it takes to defeat each soldier. Wolfen and humans both have a P.E. of 3D6 for a median of 10.5, which I'll round down to 10. Assuming a roll of 3 more hit points for each level, the average level 3 human soldier has 20 S.D.C. and 16 Hit Points, for a total of 36. Wolfen get a racial bonus of 20 S.D.C. points, giving them a total of 56.
It therefore takes a human soldier about 8 hits on average to defeat a wolfen soldier, while it takes 2.67 hits on average for a wolfen soldier to defeat a human soldier. Thus, for every wolfen soldier that dies, three human soldiers die.
Now let's look at the numbers of available troops known to be in the Disputed Lands for a border war. There are nine Imperial Legions deployed to the border of the Disputed Zone, for a total of 45,000 troops. The Iron Claw tribal army is larger than the Imperial Army, at 100,000, and has the best weapons and equipment of any tribal or imperial force in the Wolfen Empire. I'll assume no help from the Diamond Point Horde's army or other member state forces, so we have a total of 145,000 wolfen ready to put into a border fight.
By contrast, there are only two areas near the border where the Dominion or its allies hold sway. The first is Southwatch, a fortress city of 27,000. The other is Northolme, with about 1,100 ready troops and another 12,000 dwarves who could be pressed into service in an emergency (which I will assume will be as effective as human soldiers). That's a total of 40,000 Dominion troops with very generous assumptions.
Applying Lanchester's linear law, the Wolfen Empire would annihilate Southwatch and Northolme's combined strength of 40,000. in open combat, losing about 13,000 troops in the process and retaining 132,000 troops in the area.
Even without considering the shorter supply lines of the Wolfen, their ability to track by smell, their natural weapons, their superior speed, and their initiative bonus, That's a stacked deck.
What kinds of factors could balance out these advantages and make the war more interesting?
Hotrod
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
River of lava, CoA, CoS. Summoned stuff.
Would depend on how desperate the Humies got. Magic is supposed to be the difference, but it isn't wizards really, as they don't match up to the numbers that there are supposed to be, but priests would be where it got tricky on both sides. The Prayer of Intervention would kill a lot of people on both sides. Imagine 200 rivers of lava appearing, or the like. Massive walls just appearing in mid air and dropping on enemies and blocking paths.
Then there is just teleporting into enemy lands and summoning demons until you fall asleep and just letting them go. Circles of elemental power would deal with most forts pretty easily because of the range.
I don't think it would be easy to quantify, but if its just fighting only the western empire has the numbers required to stop the wolfen.
Would depend on how desperate the Humies got. Magic is supposed to be the difference, but it isn't wizards really, as they don't match up to the numbers that there are supposed to be, but priests would be where it got tricky on both sides. The Prayer of Intervention would kill a lot of people on both sides. Imagine 200 rivers of lava appearing, or the like. Massive walls just appearing in mid air and dropping on enemies and blocking paths.
Then there is just teleporting into enemy lands and summoning demons until you fall asleep and just letting them go. Circles of elemental power would deal with most forts pretty easily because of the range.
I don't think it would be easy to quantify, but if its just fighting only the western empire has the numbers required to stop the wolfen.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Well, this goes along with a question I asked about warlocks. How does any standing army survive if the other side has a high level warlock? The two main army killing warlock spells are Tornado and River of Lava. Each is a 7th level spell so the warlock would have to be at least 7th level to acquire it. For the River of Lava, that's 210 feet long and 35 feet wide (and 35 feet deep if that matters). Every soldier in that area is immediately dead. How do you attack a fortification if as soon as you get within 120 feet, everyone in that area is immediately dead? On the other hand, how do the walls of a fortification stand up when someone can be within 120 feet and open a river of lava underneath them? Goodbye walls. Earthquake is goo at destroying fortification as well.
For Tornado, it's even worse for an open field battle. It's only 100 foot diameter, but it does 3d6x10 damage. It's like being hit by a missile. And the Warlock can move it around. Now the speed isn't listed to that's a bit of a concern. But, the warlock can cast it 600 feet away so that helps. In a battle in the field, it would be dueling Warlocks.
Magic is the big X factor. We have no idea how many warlocks or other powerful spell casters either side has. But one 7th Warlock is worth...1,000 soldiers? This is without summoning an elemental who can cast the same spells at a higher level. More? At that point the one on one battles are immaterial because so many soldiers won't even have the chance to fight one on one. It would be like WWI when so many soldiers died of artillery or machine guns as opposed to individual rifle fire.
Other, more mundane issues are things like supplies and home field advantage. One of the problems with the fantasy genre is that there are all these giant creatures who are so much tougher and stronger than humans, but they never seem to have to eat more. So 120,000 Wolfen would have extraordinary dietary needs. The humans probably have a much better navy so they can blockade any sea trade, unless Byzantium decides to help the Wolfen. They might even be able to sail soldiers around and attack cities from the rear. But, humans fighting in the woods would get their hats handed to them. Wolfen trying to attack fortifications would suffer.
Another factor might be allies. Byzantium MIGHT help the Wolfen, or they might decide now is a time for more land. This is assuming the Ice Zombies don't attack. The Western Empire might decide to go for a land grab, and the Timiro Kingdom might throw in with the Eastern Territories. The Wolfen could get some help from the creatures in the Old Kingdom, although how reliable are they? I think the Wolfen would much prefer the conflict to be confined to just them and the Eastern Territories.
I think the battle would be humans trying to push north, losing, and retreating. Then the Wolfen might want to punish them and they'd run into the walls. This is all assuming a high level warlock on either side doesn't just wipe out the other army.
-Vek
"Warlocks...just super overpowered at war."
For Tornado, it's even worse for an open field battle. It's only 100 foot diameter, but it does 3d6x10 damage. It's like being hit by a missile. And the Warlock can move it around. Now the speed isn't listed to that's a bit of a concern. But, the warlock can cast it 600 feet away so that helps. In a battle in the field, it would be dueling Warlocks.
Magic is the big X factor. We have no idea how many warlocks or other powerful spell casters either side has. But one 7th Warlock is worth...1,000 soldiers? This is without summoning an elemental who can cast the same spells at a higher level. More? At that point the one on one battles are immaterial because so many soldiers won't even have the chance to fight one on one. It would be like WWI when so many soldiers died of artillery or machine guns as opposed to individual rifle fire.
Other, more mundane issues are things like supplies and home field advantage. One of the problems with the fantasy genre is that there are all these giant creatures who are so much tougher and stronger than humans, but they never seem to have to eat more. So 120,000 Wolfen would have extraordinary dietary needs. The humans probably have a much better navy so they can blockade any sea trade, unless Byzantium decides to help the Wolfen. They might even be able to sail soldiers around and attack cities from the rear. But, humans fighting in the woods would get their hats handed to them. Wolfen trying to attack fortifications would suffer.
Another factor might be allies. Byzantium MIGHT help the Wolfen, or they might decide now is a time for more land. This is assuming the Ice Zombies don't attack. The Western Empire might decide to go for a land grab, and the Timiro Kingdom might throw in with the Eastern Territories. The Wolfen could get some help from the creatures in the Old Kingdom, although how reliable are they? I think the Wolfen would much prefer the conflict to be confined to just them and the Eastern Territories.
I think the battle would be humans trying to push north, losing, and retreating. Then the Wolfen might want to punish them and they'd run into the walls. This is all assuming a high level warlock on either side doesn't just wipe out the other army.
-Vek
"Warlocks...just super overpowered at war."
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Your forgetting priests who can do divine intervention. The ones who follow Ra can cast any one spell Ra knows each DI at 5 levels higher than their current level. Unlimited tries a day. And Ra knows river of lava.
And for forts one summoner using the circle of elemental power doing an earthquake a minute until he is caught. The circle can be 20 miles away so he would be hard to find.
And for forts one summoner using the circle of elemental power doing an earthquake a minute until he is caught. The circle can be 20 miles away so he would be hard to find.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Veknironth wrote:Well, this goes along with a question I asked about warlocks. How does any standing army survive if the other side has a high level warlock? The two main army killing warlock spells are Tornado and River of Lava. Each is a 7th level spell so the warlock would have to be at least 7th level to acquire it. For the River of Lava, that's 210 feet long and 35 feet wide (and 35 feet deep if that matters). Every soldier in that area is immediately dead. How do you attack a fortification if as soon as you get within 120 feet, everyone in that area is immediately dead? On the other hand, how do the walls of a fortification stand up when someone can be within 120 feet and open a river of lava underneath them? Goodbye walls. Earthquake is goo at destroying fortification as well.
For Tornado, it's even worse for an open field battle. It's only 100 foot diameter, but it does 3d6x10 damage. It's like being hit by a missile. And the Warlock can move it around. Now the speed isn't listed to that's a bit of a concern. But, the warlock can cast it 600 feet away so that helps. In a battle in the field, it would be dueling Warlocks.
Magic is the big X factor. We have no idea how many warlocks or other powerful spell casters either side has. But one 7th Warlock is worth...1,000 soldiers? This is without summoning an elemental who can cast the same spells at a higher level. More? At that point the one on one battles are immaterial because so many soldiers won't even have the chance to fight one on one. It would be like WWI when so many soldiers died of artillery or machine guns as opposed to individual rifle fire.
Other, more mundane issues are things like supplies and home field advantage. One of the problems with the fantasy genre is that there are all these giant creatures who are so much tougher and stronger than humans, but they never seem to have to eat more. So 120,000 Wolfen would have extraordinary dietary needs. The humans probably have a much better navy so they can blockade any sea trade, unless Byzantium decides to help the Wolfen. They might even be able to sail soldiers around and attack cities from the rear. But, humans fighting in the woods would get their hats handed to them. Wolfen trying to attack fortifications would suffer.
Another factor might be allies. Byzantium MIGHT help the Wolfen, or they might decide now is a time for more land. This is assuming the Ice Zombies don't attack. The Western Empire might decide to go for a land grab, and the Timiro Kingdom might throw in with the Eastern Territories. The Wolfen could get some help from the creatures in the Old Kingdom, although how reliable are they? I think the Wolfen would much prefer the conflict to be confined to just them and the Eastern Territories.
I think the battle would be humans trying to push north, losing, and retreating. Then the Wolfen might want to punish them and they'd run into the walls. This is all assuming a high level warlock on either side doesn't just wipe out the other army.
-Vek
"Warlocks...just super overpowered at war."
Bizantium is NOT going to side with the Wolfen or ET. They are going to stay neutral.
However, they need a healthy Wolfen Empire in order to gain enough wood to build up
their fleet incase the Western Empire feels a little daring with their fleet. Still warlock
trump all battle stategy.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Remember the Wolfen are dabbling in summoning which is banned in much of the south...
And every single level 1 Summoner STARTS with Summon Elemental Forces...
There is a REASON people fear that class and it isn't just the demons people.
And every single level 1 Summoner STARTS with Summon Elemental Forces...
There is a REASON people fear that class and it isn't just the demons people.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
When it comes down to total military forces, the Wolfen have a staggering advantage. 872,000 combat troops, compared to 179,600. Their ships are designed for quick raiding and can move up rivers, they have the bounty of the North for food as well as their physical advantages.
The ET has a very small Navy, so there is no advantage there. Their priests are the main advantage.
The Wolfen can also fight in winter a lot longer than the humans can as well.
Unfortunately, the Wolfen Empire book sucked and included no actual information about the make up of the empire regarding priests, magic users etc. There aren't even any notable Wolfen.
The ET has a very small Navy, so there is no advantage there. Their priests are the main advantage.
The Wolfen can also fight in winter a lot longer than the humans can as well.
Unfortunately, the Wolfen Empire book sucked and included no actual information about the make up of the empire regarding priests, magic users etc. There aren't even any notable Wolfen.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
I'd be cautious about ascribing any magical advantage to one side or the other... what one side can bring to the field, frequently the other side can as well, and the higher-level spellcasters are going to be rare enough that you'll seldom see a significant numerical advantage for one side or the other on that front.
As for how does one fight combat magic? Two options: More combat magic, and assassins. As Vlad Taltos said, "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will severely cramp his style." When facing magic, you wind up facing countermagic. Does one side Summon Elemental Forces? So does the other side, and you wind up with two summoners creating and cancelling each other's effects. River of Lava? Circle of Rain. Snow Storm. Wall of Clay or Stone to make a bridge. Rock to Mud to quickly clear lava off of people. A Chasm will swallow up your River of Lava, then cancel the spell to swallow it whole. Wall of Ice to quickly cool a section of Lava. This is to say nothing of spells like Dispel Magic Barrier.
Noodling through the spell list will give you lots of ideas on how to counter various magics. If, like most warlock magic, the spells are a fundamental and common part of the grimoire, it's a safe bet that people have thought about how to overcome them. Hell, they may have sandboxed battles like these in war colleges.
(Really, y'all should read the Vlad Taltos series, as the high-magic, high-psionics world described works great for Palladium Fantasy. They even have Soul Drinking weapons, but only the most powerful of those have a personality)
As for how does one fight combat magic? Two options: More combat magic, and assassins. As Vlad Taltos said, "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will severely cramp his style." When facing magic, you wind up facing countermagic. Does one side Summon Elemental Forces? So does the other side, and you wind up with two summoners creating and cancelling each other's effects. River of Lava? Circle of Rain. Snow Storm. Wall of Clay or Stone to make a bridge. Rock to Mud to quickly clear lava off of people. A Chasm will swallow up your River of Lava, then cancel the spell to swallow it whole. Wall of Ice to quickly cool a section of Lava. This is to say nothing of spells like Dispel Magic Barrier.
Noodling through the spell list will give you lots of ideas on how to counter various magics. If, like most warlock magic, the spells are a fundamental and common part of the grimoire, it's a safe bet that people have thought about how to overcome them. Hell, they may have sandboxed battles like these in war colleges.
(Really, y'all should read the Vlad Taltos series, as the high-magic, high-psionics world described works great for Palladium Fantasy. They even have Soul Drinking weapons, but only the most powerful of those have a personality)
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Hotrod wrote:and another 12,000 dwarves who could be pressed into service in an emergency (which I will assume will be as effective as human soldiers).
Actually Dwarves will be more effective than human soliders: High PS, High PE, SDC Bonus. Their PS and PE attributes are higher than a Wolfen, the SDC bonus is almost as large (which with the high PE might wash out in terms of SDC/HP total).
Hotrod wrote:Applying Lanchester's linear law, the Wolfen Empire would annihilate Southwatch and Northolme's combined strength of 40,000. in open combat, losing about 13,000 troops in the process and retaining 132,000 troops in the area.
Even without considering the shorter supply lines of the Wolfen, their ability to track by smell, their natural weapons, their superior speed, and their initiative bonus, That's a stacked deck.
What kinds of factors could balance out these advantages and make the war more interesting?
(NOTE: Full disclosure I don't have many PF source books, so I'm just using the main book)
Several things that could balance these out:
1. Mounted Troops
How easy will it be for the Wolfen to acquire suitable mounts? At 7-10ft tall and 250-500lbs, I would suspect they would need suitable mounts more sturdy/larger than regular humans/dwarves. This could skewer the numbers slightly allowing human/dwarven mounted troops to out number their wolfen counter parts, and if they are used against non-mounted troops they receive a bonus damage that negates the Wolfen giant size bonus (against a mounted Wolfen they also get the bonus, so a wash) compeletly or close to it (depending on the level of horsemanship).
2. Weapons Manufacturing
With Dwarves being available, what percentage of the human weapons are of dwarven manufacture? This can impact in terms of damage done (damage bonus), successful strikes (strike bonus, hit more often), successful parry (parry bonus allowing them to evade damage longer). So unless the Wolfen have their own source of superior weapons manufacturers, the dwarves superior manufacturing could cut into the Wolfen advantage.
3. Magic
While Dwarves don't study magic, Humans do much more so than Wolfen. So in terms of available spell casters humans will have a higher percentage of their population than Wolfen (who are new to magic). Though since the Wolfen out number the huamn/dwarves the numbers might not be there. However given the long experience humans (and lesser extent dwarves) have with Magic, they might be able to use it more effectively.
In addition to the magic spells already mentioned (River of Lava, CoA, CoS, summoned stuff)... You could see forces bolstered with mummies, zombies, golems, animated dead/skeletons (necromancy and circle magic have superior versions), Monster Insect (limited duration I know).
4. Human resourcefulness/intelligence
This gets listed as a special/natural ability in the race writeup (PF2E pg289). Wolfen don't get as rosy a description. The result is that humans could take steps to choose the battlefield to offer them advantages or limit the number of Wolfen that can be brought forward at any one time (as it is due their numerical superiority the Wolfen could gang up on their opponents in 2+:1 matches).
They could look for ways to attack the Wolfen's superior sense of smell and hearing such that the Wolfen take penalties and reduce their effectiveness (resulting in less damage dealt overall as they can't hit as often as human/dwarves, who could make up for their smaller damage number with hitting more often). This need not be done via magic either.
While this is true for both sides, human/dwarves could favor weapons that give them an advantage or a wash. Ex. Battleaxe, with the appropriate WP at level 3 would allow them to deal more damage than the assumed weapon selection. A Battle Axe does 3d6, +1d6 for WP (at level 2). So if I was planing on taking a force of human/dwarves against a Wolfen force using swords, I would favor those equipped with an Axe and trained over those with a sword (AFAIK PF doesn't have Fencing skill like Rifts UE). That said, this is also something the Wolfen could do so it might wash out, but as humans have that resourcefulness/intelligence aspect to them they might think of it first allowing them some advantage in the initial stages of the conflict.
5. Joke Suggestions NOT SERIOUS.
Tire them out by playing fetch with a ball or stick. Or you know just throw them a bone to keep them happy.
Back to being serious... You did miss at least two advantages the Wolfen have: Horror Factor and size
-Wolfen have a natural HF, which humans/dwarves have no natural counter/defense. This means the human/dwarves could potentially fall faster than expected as some percentage will fail their save and take damage (they also are out an attack for the first melee round, potentially giving the wolfen two free hits depending on how it is played). Luckily rolling for it isn't going to be often.
-While the rule mechanics don't have anything on this, I would think that a 7-10ft tall individual fighting a 5-6.6ft tall individual can get uncomfortable/awkward with those with the larger differences in size (never mind that dwarves are smaller than humans). Yes the Wolfen will have the reach over the human/dwarf opponent, which could mean they can do hit-damage and their opponent could not.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
The Wolfen do have Dwarves in their Empire. My Wolfen Empire is on loan, so I can't get the specs on them, but it is a sizable clan. While they may not fight, they can produce weapons. Also, the Wolfen have Kobolds. Almost an equal to Dwarves, and much more plentiful.
Calvalry. Definitely an advantage for the humans, the Wolfen do have Centaurs though. Also, there is canon for them to ride woolly mammoths, and they also have woolly rhinos in their lands. That would make for a formidable cavalry.
The undead forces I think would be more prevalent on the Wolfen side. They don't yet discriminate against dark magics, while most human lands seem to have outlawed necromancers.
The Wolfen also have an advantage in the terrain. It is their home after all. The weather won't affect them as much. and I'm sure they would make good use of Kankoran rangers for spying and ambush attacks.
They could also see an unexpected ally in the form of Algor giants. Not only would they be a terror on the battle field, but they are well versed in magic.
Calvalry. Definitely an advantage for the humans, the Wolfen do have Centaurs though. Also, there is canon for them to ride woolly mammoths, and they also have woolly rhinos in their lands. That would make for a formidable cavalry.
The undead forces I think would be more prevalent on the Wolfen side. They don't yet discriminate against dark magics, while most human lands seem to have outlawed necromancers.
The Wolfen also have an advantage in the terrain. It is their home after all. The weather won't affect them as much. and I'm sure they would make good use of Kankoran rangers for spying and ambush attacks.
They could also see an unexpected ally in the form of Algor giants. Not only would they be a terror on the battle field, but they are well versed in magic.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Yes, however, they don't have a lot of magic on there side. And you've got to admit the effectiveness of some of the spells. Specifically Air: Phantom and the Rift's spell of legend warrior hoard. Which I can see Thoth's priests having.
Also, something to consider: the combined use of dimensional pockets, invisibility, and flight spells. All a mage has to do (in practically all of the games I have played in, there has only been like 2 that said "no, you can't do that") to increase the area in side is to recast the spell. So, you probably have 1 mage with a drinking problem with a spell to detoxify in a couple of seconds. Anyway, they would have a wine skin with the 100 gallon capacity filled with the hard stuff. The 100+ proof stuff. Are you following my train of thought? So, can we say fire water from heaven? Waiting on a flame to light. Another idea is to use a sack of flechettes. Yeah, I am basically not that nice of a dude when it comes to warfare or the protection of my people.
But yeah, the possibilities are endless. Heck, with magic you can have an invisible mage casting increase weight on helmets. Which is not a direct attack so he can remain invisible.
Also, wolfen are subjective to smells and sounds.
Also, something to consider: the combined use of dimensional pockets, invisibility, and flight spells. All a mage has to do (in practically all of the games I have played in, there has only been like 2 that said "no, you can't do that") to increase the area in side is to recast the spell. So, you probably have 1 mage with a drinking problem with a spell to detoxify in a couple of seconds. Anyway, they would have a wine skin with the 100 gallon capacity filled with the hard stuff. The 100+ proof stuff. Are you following my train of thought? So, can we say fire water from heaven? Waiting on a flame to light. Another idea is to use a sack of flechettes. Yeah, I am basically not that nice of a dude when it comes to warfare or the protection of my people.
But yeah, the possibilities are endless. Heck, with magic you can have an invisible mage casting increase weight on helmets. Which is not a direct attack so he can remain invisible.
Also, wolfen are subjective to smells and sounds.
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- pblackcrow
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
When I say flachettes, I am talking about the air-dropped flechette not the shotguns bullets with nails.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
There are no numbers ever given to say how many magic users there are in the Wolfen Empire. Only that Wolfen are relatively new to magic. They could have twice as many magic users as the Eastern Territory, just all level 1 or 2. And since the Wolfen are a unified force, all of their wizards would likely have all the same spells. When one learns a new one, it's quickly passed throughout the Empire.
One other thing that is not usually brought up when discussing priests is the fact that the Wolfen have an actual physical god on their side. While Isis and Ra may grant spells, it's unlikely that they will ever actually physically appear.
Wolvenar on the other hand, may actually take a direct approach to helping out the Wolfen, physically appearing to join them in battle. He's worshiped by Wolfen on one world, whereas the Church of Light and Dark are worshiped on countless worlds. Palladium may not be worth their time at the moment.
One other thing that is not usually brought up when discussing priests is the fact that the Wolfen have an actual physical god on their side. While Isis and Ra may grant spells, it's unlikely that they will ever actually physically appear.
Wolvenar on the other hand, may actually take a direct approach to helping out the Wolfen, physically appearing to join them in battle. He's worshiped by Wolfen on one world, whereas the Church of Light and Dark are worshiped on countless worlds. Palladium may not be worth their time at the moment.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
kiralon wrote:Your forgetting priests who can do divine intervention. The ones who follow Ra can cast any one spell Ra knows each DI at 5 levels higher than their current level. Unlimited tries a day. And Ra knows river of lava.
And for forts one summoner using the circle of elemental power doing an earthquake a minute until he is caught. The circle can be 20 miles away so he would be hard to find.
How long does it take to perform these prayers? I can't find a mention of it in the book. I think too many people read these abilities and just go "I try until I succeed" with each attempt taking seconds. Personally, I would think that the prayer is quite lengthy and involved. Also, most gods would eventually cut a priest off if they just constantly prayed for assistance. They exist to further the god, not sponge off their power.
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Whiskeyjack wrote:kiralon wrote:Your forgetting priests who can do divine intervention. The ones who follow Ra can cast any one spell Ra knows each DI at 5 levels higher than their current level. Unlimited tries a day. And Ra knows river of lava.
And for forts one summoner using the circle of elemental power doing an earthquake a minute until he is caught. The circle can be 20 miles away so he would be hard to find.
How long does it take to perform these prayers? I can't find a mention of it in the book. I think too many people read these abilities and just go "I try until I succeed" with each attempt taking seconds. Personally, I would think that the prayer is quite lengthy and involved. Also, most gods would eventually cut a priest off if they just constantly prayed for assistance. They exist to further the god, not sponge off their power.
I think its 1d4 actions or something like that, and yes normally the gods would cut you off pretty quick but if the gods of light stood by and did nothing that would lose them followers too, not to mention their followers getting killed. The Gods have warred on palladium a couple times so we know they have a vested interest, and it only takes a priest with a well timed sanctuary to ruin the day of the other side.
Magic would make all the difference and the flavour text points to ET having more magic, and as we can only partly quanitify one side and not the other it will always be a storyline from palladium that decides it.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Something that may be worth considering is the economics related to production and support.
Wolfen weapons qualify as "giant size", which means they use 3x-5x as much material (since they have 3x-5x the mass, PF2E pg308 #6) and cost 2x-4x as much (PF2E pg334 left column last paragraph). This basically works out that if the human/wolfen spend the same amount of gross money and resources, the humans can produce higher quality weapons and still have material left over for other functions. A base Wolfen sized Bastard Sword costs 100-200gp, for the same range the humans can get a +1 to +3 damage weapon which cuts into the Wolfen size bonus for damage. If the Wolfen Bastard sword comes with superior bonuses and humans seek to counter them as much as possible...
The Wolfen will also need much more extensive resources to equip everyone with weapons of the same make as a result, and to harvest those resources will cost them that much more (even assuming slave labor they have to pay in a variety of ways). This includes mining raw materials and food production (Wolfen need between 4x-5x per PF2E pg334).
Obviously nothing restricts either side to investing the same amount in terms of money and resources.
True necromancy is frowned upon (to put it mildly), but that doesn't mean people might not look the other way in battle/war.
Given how rare necromancy is in general, it might be that much more rare among the Wolfen who rarely learn magic as it is new to them. I'm not saying they might not favor certain branches over others in a different distribution than humans.
Not just via invisibility either, but also astral projection (magic or psionic) which could open up other means of interacting with the material world that don't have the same restrictions (though it does come with other restrictions)
Wolfen weapons qualify as "giant size", which means they use 3x-5x as much material (since they have 3x-5x the mass, PF2E pg308 #6) and cost 2x-4x as much (PF2E pg334 left column last paragraph). This basically works out that if the human/wolfen spend the same amount of gross money and resources, the humans can produce higher quality weapons and still have material left over for other functions. A base Wolfen sized Bastard Sword costs 100-200gp, for the same range the humans can get a +1 to +3 damage weapon which cuts into the Wolfen size bonus for damage. If the Wolfen Bastard sword comes with superior bonuses and humans seek to counter them as much as possible...
The Wolfen will also need much more extensive resources to equip everyone with weapons of the same make as a result, and to harvest those resources will cost them that much more (even assuming slave labor they have to pay in a variety of ways). This includes mining raw materials and food production (Wolfen need between 4x-5x per PF2E pg334).
Obviously nothing restricts either side to investing the same amount in terms of money and resources.
Whiskeyjack wrote:The undead forces I think would be more prevalent on the Wolfen side. They don't yet discriminate against dark magics, while most human lands seem to have outlawed necromancers.
True necromancy is frowned upon (to put it mildly), but that doesn't mean people might not look the other way in battle/war.
Given how rare necromancy is in general, it might be that much more rare among the Wolfen who rarely learn magic as it is new to them. I'm not saying they might not favor certain branches over others in a different distribution than humans.
pblackcrow wrote:But yeah, the possibilities are endless. Heck, with magic you can have an invisible mage casting increase weight on helmets. Which is not a direct attack so he can remain invisible.
Not just via invisibility either, but also astral projection (magic or psionic) which could open up other means of interacting with the material world that don't have the same restrictions (though it does come with other restrictions)
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
ShadowLogan wrote:Hotrod wrote:and another 12,000 dwarves who could be pressed into service in an emergency (which I will assume will be as effective as human soldiers).
Actually Dwarves will be more effective than human soliders: High PS, High PE, SDC Bonus. Their PS and PE attributes are higher than a Wolfen, the SDC bonus is almost as large (which with the high PE might wash out in terms of SDC/HP total).
The bonuses are likely to be balanced out by the fact that most dwarves aren't soldiers, and by the fact that the giant size advantage of the Wolfen is a prodigious one. I'm making an approximation, and you might be right, but without actually working out the stats and equipment myself (which would involve a lot of judgment calls), I think it's a fair approximation.
ShadowLogan wrote:(NOTE: Full disclosure I don't have many PF source books, so I'm just using the main book)
Several things that could balance these out:
1. Mounted Troops
How easy will it be for the Wolfen to acquire suitable mounts? At 7-10ft tall and 250-500lbs, I would suspect they would need suitable mounts more sturdy/larger than regular humans/dwarves. This could skewer the numbers slightly allowing human/dwarven mounted troops to out number their wolfen counter parts, and if they are used against non-mounted troops they receive a bonus damage that negates the Wolfen giant size bonus (against a mounted Wolfen they also get the bonus, so a wash) compeletly or close to it (depending on the level of horsemanship).
2. Weapons Manufacturing
With Dwarves being available, what percentage of the human weapons are of dwarven manufacture? This can impact in terms of damage done (damage bonus), successful strikes (strike bonus, hit more often), successful parry (parry bonus allowing them to evade damage longer). So unless the Wolfen have their own source of superior weapons manufacturers, the dwarves superior manufacturing could cut into the Wolfen advantage.
3. Magic
While Dwarves don't study magic, Humans do much more so than Wolfen. So in terms of available spell casters humans will have a higher percentage of their population than Wolfen (who are new to magic). Though since the Wolfen out number the huamn/dwarves the numbers might not be there. However given the long experience humans (and lesser extent dwarves) have with Magic, they might be able to use it more effectively.
In addition to the magic spells already mentioned (River of Lava, CoA, CoS, summoned stuff)... You could see forces bolstered with mummies, zombies, golems, animated dead/skeletons (necromancy and circle magic have superior versions), Monster Insect (limited duration I know).
4. Human resourcefulness/intelligence
This gets listed as a special/natural ability in the race writeup (PF2E pg289). Wolfen don't get as rosy a description. The result is that humans could take steps to choose the battlefield to offer them advantages or limit the number of Wolfen that can be brought forward at any one time (as it is due their numerical superiority the Wolfen could gang up on their opponents in 2+:1 matches).
They could look for ways to attack the Wolfen's superior sense of smell and hearing such that the Wolfen take penalties and reduce their effectiveness (resulting in less damage dealt overall as they can't hit as often as human/dwarves, who could make up for their smaller damage number with hitting more often). This need not be done via magic either.
While this is true for both sides, human/dwarves could favor weapons that give them an advantage or a wash. Ex. Battleaxe, with the appropriate WP at level 3 would allow them to deal more damage than the assumed weapon selection. A Battle Axe does 3d6, +1d6 for WP (at level 2). So if I was planing on taking a force of human/dwarves against a Wolfen force using swords, I would favor those equipped with an Axe and trained over those with a sword (AFAIK PF doesn't have Fencing skill like Rifts UE). That said, this is also something the Wolfen could do so it might wash out, but as humans have that resourcefulness/intelligence aspect to them they might think of it first allowing them some advantage in the initial stages of the conflict.
5. Joke Suggestions NOT SERIOUS.
Tire them out by playing fetch with a ball or stick. Or you know just throw them a bone to keep them happy.
Back to being serious... You did miss at least two advantages the Wolfen have: Horror Factor and size
-Wolfen have a natural HF, which humans/dwarves have no natural counter/defense. This means the human/dwarves could potentially fall faster than expected as some percentage will fail their save and take damage (they also are out an attack for the first melee round, potentially giving the wolfen two free hits depending on how it is played). Luckily rolling for it isn't going to be often.
-While the rule mechanics don't have anything on this, I would think that a 7-10ft tall individual fighting a 5-6.6ft tall individual can get uncomfortable/awkward with those with the larger differences in size (never mind that dwarves are smaller than humans). Yes the Wolfen will have the reach over the human/dwarf opponent, which could mean they can do hit-damage and their opponent could not.
All interesting and legit points.
1. I don't believe that Wolfen ride on much of anything except perhaps wooly mammoths. However, the Kingdom of Havea is a member state, and they provide substantial amounts of horse cavalry to the Imperial Army. While this is probably not as much as what the Dominion can field, the advantage may be pressed further by the fact that the Wolfen have a whole pole-arm specialty in their army that wears heavy armor and trains specifically to fight and kill human noble cavalry armies. Formations armed with giant-sized pikes are pretty potent against horses.
2. The Wolfen have, as a member state, the Algor Mountain collective, which is substantially larger than Northolme, the dwarf town in the Eastern Territory that is allied with the Dominion. The Wolfen also have some small dwarf communities. Overall, I'd say that the Wolfen have more superior-quality Kobold weapons, and the Dominion has fewer superior quality weapons, but those weapons are of a slightly higher dwarf quality.
3. Magic is the big wild card here, and it's difficult to say how big or small a role it would play. In something like a siege or a battle in constrained areas, it would probably make a big difference. Out in the field, it's hard to say. Anti-Magic Clouds and Mystic Energy Drain wards could go a long way towards negating this advantage.
4. I'm not sure that there's an advantage to either side in resourcefulness, but entire wars have swung on the contributions and ideas of just a few people, so this could be a second big wild card.
Your points about horror factor and size are both well-taken. Large size could also be a disadvantage when assaulting a castle or underground, but there the Wolfen allies like kobolds would probably negate this.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Hotrod wrote:The bonuses are likely to be balanced out by the fact that most dwarves aren't soldiers, and by the fact that the giant size advantage of the Wolfen is a prodigious one. I'm making an approximation, and you might be right, but without actually working out the stats and equipment myself (which would involve a lot of judgment calls), I think it's a fair approximation.
It is true that I am only looking at all three in terms of the Racial Stats*, and not them in a particular Occupation Class. At 4d6+6 PS, before skills it would typically result in a 20 PS (+5dmg, almost completely negating giant's bonus die), and the PE (4d6) would result in 23 HPs Plus 15* SDC =38 before the OCC/skills (if we assume the same skills are in effect they are more durable). Wolfen have a PS of 15 here, and 36 HP/SDC Before OCC/Skills, Humans have a PS of 10 and 16 HP/SDC before OCC/Skills.
Dwarves also don't favor the swords, they prefer axes (I'm assuming the list is most likely to less likely in racial writeup). But if we give them the same sword as the humans in initial post that works out to 2d6+5 typically for 12points of damage (almost as good as a Wolfen after OCC/Skills, though Wolfen have a superior max damage). Given their favored weapon of a battle axe (and WP Axe) that is an extra 7pts of damage for 19 total, or 15.5 w/o WP Axe.
This would suggest that a Dwarf is closer to a Wolfen instead of a human, this is all before OCC/Skill assumptions. Which potentially can skewer the result even further.
Per the writeup Dwarves can be any OCC except magic, but notes "Most Dwarves lean towards Men of arms, mechants and clergy." Since clergy probably don't make up a large percentage of a given population, that would seem to suggest the M@A and Mercants are going to make up a larger portion of the population. Mercants probably are more common than clergy, but again it seems unlikely that 1/2 of the remaining dwarf population is merchant, which probably means it skwers toward mostly M@A IMHO (could be wrong). Even if we assume an equal split, Mercants do get 1d6SDC (3.5) and can select physical skills (other/secondary) and WPs (2 auto). While you seem to avoid other/secondary skill selection in initial post (don't blame you), a Dwarven Merchant would still be more durable than a human solider w/the initial assumptions (41SDC/HP), but not as durable as a Wolfen but can certainly dish it out like a Wolfen.
*Which are not consistent megaversally speaking, Rifts Conversion Book 1 Revised gives the PF Dwarves an equal to Wolfen SDC bonus (which is unchanged). I am using PF2E though.
Hotrod wrote:Your points about horror factor and size are both well-taken. Large size could also be a disadvantage when assaulting a castle or underground, but there the Wolfen allies like kobolds would probably negate this.
As I said I don't have many PF SBs, and I was trying to work with the information in the initial post. Sure Wolfen can have allies to negate the size advantage, but then again humans could also have allies to negate the size advantage of the Wolfen. So I was trying to look at it as a purely Wolfen vs Human/Dwarf force as that is how the initial post IMHO framed the discussion.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
ShadowLogan wrote:Hotrod wrote:and another 12,000 dwarves who could be pressed into service in an emergency (which I will assume will be as effective as human soldiers).
Actually Dwarves will be more effective than human soliders: High PS, High PE, SDC Bonus. Their PS and PE attributes are higher than a Wolfen, the SDC bonus is almost as large (which with the high PE might wash out in terms of SDC/HP total).
Another thing to consider... dwarves are great defensive soldiers, but they've got a speed penalty. While pack animals and the like can mitigate it, a wolfen force can move a lot faster than a human one, and amazingly fast compared to dwarves.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
I love how important bits of information for places can often be found in other books. For example, in the Wolfen Empire book under the armies bit it says that the timiro kingdom is run by a council of generals rather than a king (A kingdom not run by a king with a good history of kings). That aside
According to the wolfen empire book
The wolfen empire has
~100,000 troops
Which make up includes
~10,000 bowman
~6000 men in the heavy artillery division
~4500 anti armour infantry
~2500 havean cavalry
but also
250,000 orcs, ogres, goblins, trolls and coyles.
the eastern territories book says they have that many just on the border if not more up to half a million.
Llorn, which has the biggest standing army in the eastern territories has an army of 21,000
extrapolating that across the towns means the E.T could probably scrape together 50-60,000
Magic would have to be the equaliser otherwise there is literally nothing stopping the wolfen from romper stomping their way to timiro, except maybe their morals. 10 to 1 odds is not a good fight for one side.
According to the wolfen empire book
The wolfen empire has
~100,000 troops
Which make up includes
~10,000 bowman
~6000 men in the heavy artillery division
~4500 anti armour infantry
~2500 havean cavalry
but also
250,000 orcs, ogres, goblins, trolls and coyles.
the eastern territories book says they have that many just on the border if not more up to half a million.
Llorn, which has the biggest standing army in the eastern territories has an army of 21,000
extrapolating that across the towns means the E.T could probably scrape together 50-60,000
Magic would have to be the equaliser otherwise there is literally nothing stopping the wolfen from romper stomping their way to timiro, except maybe their morals. 10 to 1 odds is not a good fight for one side.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
But how do the humans with math stack up against wolfen? ![Razz :-P](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
![Razz :-P](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Well, they count the number against them and then run like hell ![Laugh Out Loud :lol:](./images/smilies/lol.gif)
![Laugh Out Loud :lol:](./images/smilies/lol.gif)
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
kiralon wrote:According to the wolfen empire book
The wolfen empire has
~100,000 troops
Which make up includes
~10,000 bowman
~6000 men in the heavy artillery division
~4500 anti armour infantry
~2500 havean cavalry
but also
250,000 orcs, ogres, goblins, trolls and coyles.
See my above post on the size of the battle ready Wolfen army. I went through the Wolfen Empire book and took the numbers from every tribe that listed a number of soldiers. They have almost 800K troops.
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
They wouldn't send their entire army, just like the ET wouldn't send their entire army to stop them.
The tribal armies probably wouldn't go either, just like the city state armies, and in fact 2 or more imperial armies a required to keep the peace in places.
96,000 Imperial Army Members (This is a slight over estimation, 16 times over 5000)
250,000 Secondary Army members (well it says up to anyway)
~600k Tribal armies
The current Wolfen Empire economy is reliant on conquest apparently, and with the number of wolfen I would believe it. Hunting would not support them for long, they would need to have massive amounts of farmland to feed the people they have and I would hate to be a sewerage worker, as sewage control is what usually limits a cities size.
But they could crush the ET with just what they gots on the border.
The tribal armies probably wouldn't go either, just like the city state armies, and in fact 2 or more imperial armies a required to keep the peace in places.
96,000 Imperial Army Members (This is a slight over estimation, 16 times over 5000)
250,000 Secondary Army members (well it says up to anyway)
~600k Tribal armies
The current Wolfen Empire economy is reliant on conquest apparently, and with the number of wolfen I would believe it. Hunting would not support them for long, they would need to have massive amounts of farmland to feed the people they have and I would hate to be a sewerage worker, as sewage control is what usually limits a cities size.
But they could crush the ET with just what they gots on the border.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
No they wouldn't send their entire army. But in a prolonged conflict, they have the numbers to call on. With the size of the Northern Wilderness and the fact that they are humanoid wolves, I would think the vast majority of their food comes from wild game. The migratory elk and caribou herds, coupled with fish and aquatic mammals would easily supply large amounts of food in concentrated areas, and likely be sustainable due to the vast area.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Whiskeyjack wrote:No they wouldn't send their entire army. But in a prolonged conflict, they have the numbers to call on. With the size of the Northern Wilderness and the fact that they are humanoid wolves, I would think the vast majority of their food comes from wild game. The migratory elk and caribou herds, coupled with fish and aquatic mammals would easily supply large amounts of food in concentrated areas, and likely be sustainable due to the vast area.
You'd think that, but several tribes are noted as being farmers, so they're apparently omnivores.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Mark Hall wrote:You'd think that, but several tribes are noted as being farmers, so they're apparently omnivores.
As are actual wolves. But the vast majority of their food is meat. I would think Wolfen would have a much higher vegetable base compared to wolves, but I think they would still consume more meat than a human. Kind of similar to hunter gatherer tribes. They eat tubers/fruits etc when in season to supplement a very high meat based diet. As cities grow, farming meat and crops becomes much more important with wild game supplementing what they grow both because they would likely enjoy hunting, and it would still be readily available to them. It's similar to that where I live. Many people don't but much meat at the grocery store. They go when the deer, moose, gamebirds and fish run out in the freezer.
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
I did some very basic calculations and I checked
North America had ~ 10million elk before they were hunted
Wolves eat ~7kg of food a day, wolfen are 3x bigger so 20 kg (close to a bear from memory)
there are 7 million wolven and coyle
say 4kg is meat and other is veg (Probably higher meat mind you), thats 28 million kg of meat a day
elk gives ~120-250kg of meat so average at 200kg
so that's about 140,000 elk a day. 3 months and all the elk would be dead.
They why I keep saying hunting wouldn't cut it. Hunting takes way too long, and is why it isn't used to support towns and cities, they would have to have massive modern day cattle farms and trucks to haul it everywhere as if I remember correctly only one of the clans actuals farms cattle.
North America had ~ 10million elk before they were hunted
Wolves eat ~7kg of food a day, wolfen are 3x bigger so 20 kg (close to a bear from memory)
there are 7 million wolven and coyle
say 4kg is meat and other is veg (Probably higher meat mind you), thats 28 million kg of meat a day
elk gives ~120-250kg of meat so average at 200kg
so that's about 140,000 elk a day. 3 months and all the elk would be dead.
They why I keep saying hunting wouldn't cut it. Hunting takes way too long, and is why it isn't used to support towns and cities, they would have to have massive modern day cattle farms and trucks to haul it everywhere as if I remember correctly only one of the clans actuals farms cattle.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Hotrod wrote:What kinds of factors could balance out these advantages and make the war more interesting?
Well PF2E book does provide some clues.
PF2E pg311 (Wolfen race writeup): "One advantage for the humans is their superiority in quality metal arms and armor. The humans also dominate the seas with powerful, well trained fleets. Yet, even now the arms advantage dwindles as the Wolfen become more adept in working metals and continue their alliance with kobalds who now manufacture 60% of all Wolfen arms and armor." Mentions Wolfen have few ships, but perfection level soldiers. They also mention that Wolfen are focused more inland to avoid the fleets.
How this works out mechanically I'm not sure since in terms of just arms it seems to ignore the rules.
Something else that might balance it out a bit is that the Wolfen obey treaties (and such) to the letter and expect the other party(ies) to do the same. So there could be a buffer zone created by boarder human communities that limit how the Wolfen can act without breaking a treaty, which is something they do not seem to want to do first.
Mark Hall wrote:Another thing to consider... dwarves are great defensive soldiers, but they've got a speed penalty. While pack animals and the like can mitigate it, a wolfen force can move a lot faster than a human one, and amazingly fast compared to dwarves.
Very True, a Wolfen or Human could elect to disengage from a fight with a Dwarf and run away, but not the opposite. All though it has me wondering if Dwarves (and those of similar stature) might not have developed low tech ways to counter this to deal with the more "normal" or "giant" sized individuals and it just hasn't made it into text.
Granted all the Spd attribute would seem to be good for once you reach melee range is running away. It doesn't confer any other bonus anymore (IINM at one time it granted a Dodge Bonus, but that was moved/dropped).
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
kiralon wrote:I did some very basic calculations and I checked
North America had ~ 10million elk before they were hunted
Wolves eat ~7kg of food a day, wolfen are 3x bigger so 20 kg (close to a bear from memory)
there are 7 million wolven and coyle
say 4kg is meat and other is veg (Probably higher meat mind you), thats 28 million kg of meat a day
elk gives ~120-250kg of meat so average at 200kg
so that's about 140,000 elk a day. 3 months and all the elk would be dead.
They why I keep saying hunting wouldn't cut it. Hunting takes way too long, and is why it isn't used to support towns and cities, they would have to have massive modern day cattle farms and trucks to haul it everywhere as if I remember correctly only one of the clans actuals farms cattle.
I'm not saying that they could just run out and harvest when needed. There are many ways to preserve meat for long term storage, from smoking, drying and salting to sinking them in a bog. Meat in a bog can last decades.
Unfortunately, even on a day to day basis, the Wolfen Empire doesn't make logistical sense. Between their size, numbers and geographic location, they would inevitably starve in any given year.
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
How wide is a wolfen compared to a human? This seems like an important factor to me when doing things like defending narrow passes.
I would think that for defending a corridor 1 wolfen wide, 2 or 3 humans might be able to stand shoulder-to-shoulder, making more efficient use of the space.
For the same reason, I think gnomes could really do horrible damage to humans in certain situations.
I would think that for defending a corridor 1 wolfen wide, 2 or 3 humans might be able to stand shoulder-to-shoulder, making more efficient use of the space.
For the same reason, I think gnomes could really do horrible damage to humans in certain situations.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Whiskeyjack wrote:kiralon wrote:I did some very basic calculations and I checked
North America had ~ 10million elk before they were hunted
Wolves eat ~7kg of food a day, wolfen are 3x bigger so 20 kg (close to a bear from memory)
there are 7 million wolven and coyle
say 4kg is meat and other is veg (Probably higher meat mind you), thats 28 million kg of meat a day
elk gives ~120-250kg of meat so average at 200kg
so that's about 140,000 elk a day. 3 months and all the elk would be dead.
They why I keep saying hunting wouldn't cut it. Hunting takes way too long, and is why it isn't used to support towns and cities, they would have to have massive modern day cattle farms and trucks to haul it everywhere as if I remember correctly only one of the clans actuals farms cattle.
I'm not saying that they could just run out and harvest when needed. There are many ways to preserve meat for long term storage, from smoking, drying and salting to sinking them in a bog. Meat in a bog can last decades.
Unfortunately, even on a day to day basis, the Wolfen Empire doesn't make logistical sense. Between their size, numbers and geographic location, they would inevitably starve in any given year.
Logistics in Palladium don't make any sense period.
We have mines that have been in operation for 10,000 years+ that are still producing...and are NOT craters the size of montana.
We have cities of millions of people in random locations.
We have major logging operations in places that are supposed to be ALSO ultra deadly.
The list goes on and on ad nausium.
If you start to look under the hood the entire thing falls apart.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.
Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
eliakon wrote:Whiskeyjack wrote:kiralon wrote:I did some very basic calculations and I checked
North America had ~ 10million elk before they were hunted
Wolves eat ~7kg of food a day, wolfen are 3x bigger so 20 kg (close to a bear from memory)
there are 7 million wolven and coyle
say 4kg is meat and other is veg (Probably higher meat mind you), thats 28 million kg of meat a day
elk gives ~120-250kg of meat so average at 200kg
so that's about 140,000 elk a day. 3 months and all the elk would be dead.
They why I keep saying hunting wouldn't cut it. Hunting takes way too long, and is why it isn't used to support towns and cities, they would have to have massive modern day cattle farms and trucks to haul it everywhere as if I remember correctly only one of the clans actuals farms cattle.
I'm not saying that they could just run out and harvest when needed. There are many ways to preserve meat for long term storage, from smoking, drying and salting to sinking them in a bog. Meat in a bog can last decades.
Unfortunately, even on a day to day basis, the Wolfen Empire doesn't make logistical sense. Between their size, numbers and geographic location, they would inevitably starve in any given year.
Logistics in Palladium don't make any sense period.
We have mines that have been in operation for 10,000 years+ that are still producing...and are NOT craters the size of montana.
We have cities of millions of people in random locations.
We have major logging operations in places that are supposed to be ALSO ultra deadly.
The list goes on and on ad nausium.
If you start to look under the hood the entire thing falls apart.
Still sayin - the palladium world is only 3 days old but has a pre-prepared history made for it.
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
I know it isn't a huge influence on Palladium(due to magic), but what about siegecraft and castle type defenses as far as an equalizer? For example, castles and fortified towns will make it hard for Wolfen, specially due to their size. Defensive siege weapons can whittle down an attacking army, especially if magic is cancelled out on both sides.
This is obviously meant as a defensive tactic.
I definitely think the above mention of attacking Wolfen senses is a good idea. Anything thing with a strong spell, almost a pepper spray sort of deal, or maybe a wolfsbane type anti-wolven herb(I know the plant doesn't work like that)
This is obviously meant as a defensive tactic.
I definitely think the above mention of attacking Wolfen senses is a good idea. Anything thing with a strong spell, almost a pepper spray sort of deal, or maybe a wolfsbane type anti-wolven herb(I know the plant doesn't work like that)
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
I think the size issue is a very good point. It could swing the other way though. The humans would not likely be experienced with the size of Wolfen buildings. Running into a house where everything is proportioned differently could seriously mess you up. Something simple like tipping a table to block missile attacks is much more difficult when the table weighs 300 lbs. The Wolfen do have a place to train for this though. Haven.
The sense attacks they would definitely need to find a way around, assuming that they would actually be affected. The nose of a dog is much more powerful than a human, but they won't hesitate to eat something that smells bad enough to make a human retch.
The sense attacks they would definitely need to find a way around, assuming that they would actually be affected. The nose of a dog is much more powerful than a human, but they won't hesitate to eat something that smells bad enough to make a human retch.
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
In the real world, pepper spray works on dogs and bears. Even if it isn't a weapon, ground hot peppers everywhere could at least screw with Wolfen senses, if not hurt them.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
RockJock wrote:In the real world, pepper spray works on dogs and bears. Even if it isn't a weapon, ground hot peppers everywhere could at least screw with Wolfen senses, if not hurt them.
Since no one on palladium has invented aerosol spray yet its not much of an issue.
and improvised tear gas (which is basically what finely powdered peppers are) is going to be just as harmful to the soldiers USING it as well (again no one has invented the gas mask in Palladium... and unless there is some canon source I am unaware of for providing cheap, lens quality glass their wont be)
This sets aside of course that starting a chemical weapons arms race is going to be a no-win situation (if nothing else... the Wolfen have the numbers to absorb the death toll of a full chemical war, and the humans don't)
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
I'm sure an enterprising wizard will eventually work out a spell for a pepper spray. Or an alchemical bomb like apparatus.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
[quote="kiralon"I love how important bits of information for places can often be found in other books. For example, in the Wolfen Empire book under the armies bit it says that the timiro kingdom is run by a council of generals rather than a king (A kingdom not run by a king with a good history of kings)/quote].
The army of the Timiro Kingdom is not run by the monarch (who is King Gedro the 3)
and its ruled by a council of generals. This keeps the monarch from taking up the Sword of Light
and running off into battle and getting killed on the field, as was nearly the case with King
Jepon the First 600 years ago. The king stays at home (sitting safe on the royal throne) and his
generals do all the fighting, likely as seen in the movie Gladiator.
The Wolfen Empire has more than 100,000 troops. The Iron Claw tribe by itself has a tribal
army of 100,000. The Sun Children if they "really" needed to could field 100,000. Sixteen
Imperial Legions with over 5000 troops, each with its own secondary army. The 16 Secondary
Armies total around 250,000 troops (15,000 each). This doesn't include the other tribal armies,
the Silver Coin Horde of Coyles (living the BGM Mountains and Disputed Zone which is almost
another 100,000, yet their army is around 20,000), and all the other misc units and loyal
Wolfen Empire citizens everyone's mentioned. The real issue is how do they feed all these giant
size people. This seems to be missing from the issue, kind of like in the last book of Robert
Jordon's novel, tens of thousands trolics eating air apparently.
The army of the Timiro Kingdom is not run by the monarch (who is King Gedro the 3)
and its ruled by a council of generals. This keeps the monarch from taking up the Sword of Light
and running off into battle and getting killed on the field, as was nearly the case with King
Jepon the First 600 years ago. The king stays at home (sitting safe on the royal throne) and his
generals do all the fighting, likely as seen in the movie Gladiator.
The Wolfen Empire has more than 100,000 troops. The Iron Claw tribe by itself has a tribal
army of 100,000. The Sun Children if they "really" needed to could field 100,000. Sixteen
Imperial Legions with over 5000 troops, each with its own secondary army. The 16 Secondary
Armies total around 250,000 troops (15,000 each). This doesn't include the other tribal armies,
the Silver Coin Horde of Coyles (living the BGM Mountains and Disputed Zone which is almost
another 100,000, yet their army is around 20,000), and all the other misc units and loyal
Wolfen Empire citizens everyone's mentioned. The real issue is how do they feed all these giant
size people. This seems to be missing from the issue, kind of like in the last book of Robert
Jordon's novel, tens of thousands trolics eating air apparently.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
This is rather common in fantasy. When you see the massive armies of Mordor walking to war, they are in a wasteland with no plants or animals. What the heck are they all eating? Apparently good guys need food, bad guys are fueled by rage?
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Whiskeyjack wrote:This is rather common in fantasy. When you see the massive armies of Mordor walking to war, they are in a wasteland with no plants or animals. What the heck are they all eating? Apparently good guys need food, bad guys are fueled by rage?
Well in Palladium Fantasy we have spells like "Water to Wine", "Create Bread & Milk". A Mage could be employed just casting those spells (2d6 loaves of bread will feed how many).
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
ShadowLogan wrote:Well in Palladium Fantasy we have spells like "Water to Wine", "Create Bread & Milk". A Mage could be employed just casting those spells (2d6 loaves of bread will feed how many).
Realistically? Not many. It might fill you up, but a steady diet of wine and bread for an army isn’t really going to keep them in fighting form.
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Reagren Wright wrote:The army of the Timiro Kingdom is not run by the monarch (who is King Gedro the 3). The army of the Timiro Kingdom is not run by the monarch (who is King Gedro the 3) and its ruled by a council of generals
snip
That would be handy information to have in say the (timiro) book.
Just curious, where does it mention this information, I play in timiro a lot and while their is some info on one of the sons, not much else is mentioned about the ruling parties (well none really that I have ever found in the timiro book, it does mention in one sentence that says that in some cases this meant that a Protector or Council actually ruled the Kingdom, but I haven't seen it mentioned for gedro the 3rd)
not to mention the information about the sword of light. The only place I really remember that mentioned is in the calendar for timiro and assumed it lost as have done an adventure based on recovering the sword of the royal family (and was it Jippon or Reppon)
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
My point with pepper spray was it works again dogs and bears in the real world. If you make a mix of hot pepper and water and pour it over your plant dogs/deer/squirrels etc will leave them alone because the smell and taste bothers them.
I think something simple like ground hot pepper can negate their sense of smell and cause problems similar to Sneezing Powder. I was not suggesting using a pressurized gas canister as in modern pepper spray, just a parallel.
I think something simple like ground hot pepper can negate their sense of smell and cause problems similar to Sneezing Powder. I was not suggesting using a pressurized gas canister as in modern pepper spray, just a parallel.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Whiskeyjack wrote:ShadowLogan wrote:Well in Palladium Fantasy we have spells like "Water to Wine", "Create Bread & Milk". A Mage could be employed just casting those spells (2d6 loaves of bread will feed how many).
Realistically? Not many. It might fill you up, but a steady diet of wine and bread for an army isn’t really going to keep them in fighting form.
it would however help to offset the need to carry large supplies of such items on a march. Wine especially. being able to create wine from water would be vital for helping to avoid dysentery and other illnesses while on the march, since most sources of water will not be safe to drink without treatment. (due ot microorganisms) boiling would do it, but
that was uncommon in history, and didn't become a common approach until the discovery of microorganisms. the preferred historical method was to mix an amount of wine into the water (rather, water added to the wine). originally done because watered down wine or beer was what you drank, water down to avoid getting drunk. but unknown to them, the alcohol in the wine or beer would kill the microorganisms, making the water safe to drink. it also would cover up any weird tastes due to dissolved minerals or other materials.
while milk and bread would just add a useful variety.. fresh bread was rare on campaign, since it doesn't travel well and usually would have gone stale by the time it reached the troops. Hardtack and other unleavened breads were more common, but rather loathed because they were not enjoyable to eat. and something like Milk was a ridiculous luxury, since with no pasterization or refrigeration, you had to use it right away, and it didn't travel well. (easiest way to make milk that could be carted out to troops was to make cheese.. usually hard cheeses, which were often smoked or partially dried out to make them last even longer)
so being able to get fresh milk and bread in the field would be a major morale boost.
and if you don't have to cart around large amounts of wine, that frees up room for more supplies of other kinds, like the dried/smoked meats, grains, and hardtack which composed most of a soldiers diet. which would allow you to travel farther before having to stop and wait for a supply caravan to catch up to you. or just supply more troops with the same number of carts.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
15 ppe for 2d6 loaves of bread and 1 gallon of milk, isn't going to do it on the eastern territories side as they don't have enough wizards, much more than doubly so for the wolfen.
10 gallons per level is a lot more like it for the water to wine spell but
you still need water and containers, and it costs 40 ppe per cast. (and is level 9)
10 gallons per level is a lot more like it for the water to wine spell but
you still need water and containers, and it costs 40 ppe per cast. (and is level 9)
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
kiralon wrote:15 ppe for 2d6 loaves of bread and 1 gallon of milk, isn't going to do it on the eastern territories side as they don't have enough wizards, much more than doubly so for the wolfen.
10 gallons per level is a lot more like it for the water to wine spell but
you still need water and containers, and it costs 40 ppe per cast. (and is level 9)
You forget that all those soldiers that are eating the food are able to contribute PPE to the casting of the spells...
thus giving a whole new spin on the term "Kitched Patrol"
And yes this is going to be mindnumbily boring work for the Wizards involved...
...but if your spell casting in the rear at the base making food you are NOT out on the pointy end getting shot at so it is likely to be a rather coveted spot considering that most mages are likely to be either drafted or be expected to pay their taxes in kind/service.
And while the Talisman spell is a very high level spell that is not going to be thrown around just anywhere...
...The Military of one of the planetary super powers is the sort of organization that WOULD spend the gold to get the spell taught to a corps of specailists back home who, using donated PPE and ley lines could churn out Talismans of Create Bread and Milk, and then issue them out to the troops.
The regular supply lines could shuttle out recharged talismans and take back exhasted ones for recharging...
It isn't practicle on a small scale no...
...but when your talking logistics for hundreds of thousands of people if not millions... well there is suddenly the sort of money and resources avaliable to make the economies of scale pay off.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.
Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
eliakon wrote:kiralon wrote:15 ppe for 2d6 loaves of bread and 1 gallon of milk, isn't going to do it on the eastern territories side as they don't have enough wizards, much more than doubly so for the wolfen.
10 gallons per level is a lot more like it for the water to wine spell but
you still need water and containers, and it costs 40 ppe per cast. (and is level 9)
You forget that all those soldiers that are eating the food are able to contribute PPE to the casting of the spells...
thus giving a whole new spin on the term "Kitched Patrol"
And yes this is going to be mindnumbily boring work for the Wizards involved...
...but if your spell casting in the rear at the base making food you are NOT out on the pointy end getting shot at so it is likely to be a rather coveted spot considering that most mages are likely to be either drafted or be expected to pay their taxes in kind/service.
And while the Talisman spell is a very high level spell that is not going to be thrown around just anywhere...
...The Military of one of the planetary super powers is the sort of organization that WOULD spend the gold to get the spell taught to a corps of specailists back home who, using donated PPE and ley lines could churn out Talismans of Create Bread and Milk, and then issue them out to the troops.
The regular supply lines could shuttle out recharged talismans and take back exhasted ones for recharging...
It isn't practicle on a small scale no...
...but when your talking logistics for hundreds of thousands of people if not millions... well there is suddenly the sort of money and resources avaliable to make the economies of scale pay off.
Its still a problem of literally not enough mages even with enough ppe. The wolfen empire is only just starting to get their mages guild going, and going off 1 casting giving human size loaves (800g) and wolven needing so much food 1 casting isn't likely to feed one wolfen 9+ on 2d6 roughly (im assuming wolfen on the march would need even more food, but this is about the amount of food a wolf requires a day to actually breed). They could certainly field groups designed for it and im pretty sure there are spells in one of the rifters that are even better, but I doubt the eastern territories mages could feed their entire standing armies without the rifter spells, and they have a lot more wizards. The rifter spells would make a difference though but I don't have rifter 29 to check how much.
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Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
Does it make a human sized loaf though? Being magic, I would think it would scale to the caster. Spells like Armour of Ithan do. I would think that a giant casting create bread and milk would get a loaf of bread that would be usable to him.
Re: Wolfen vs Humans with Math
well none of the other spells really do, everything is really humancentric as none of them mention having longer ranges or anything like that because they are being cast by a dragon. As mentioned before if a spell originates at the tips of a dragons fingers they spell wouldn't make it past their teeth if they are one of the bigger ones, and if a wolfen has learnt create bread and milk it truly would likely be the human version.
Does a dragon casting call lighting have a further range than the casting dragon is long, not by the spell descriptions if its a big ass dragon. Race doesn't seem to effect range and size of magic.
Does a dragon casting call lighting have a further range than the casting dragon is long, not by the spell descriptions if its a big ass dragon. Race doesn't seem to effect range and size of magic.