Contested Skills thoughts

[zerombr]

I think Palladium needs to do Contested Skills, make it a basic game rule, that when two people roll skills against each other, like say....hacking, or driving, that the person that rolls the highest success is the victor.

This would work great with spotting prowlers with perception if it were changed to percentile, then you can simply contest perception vs prowl.

Naturally would work for detect ambush vs camouflage (or anther similar skill), detect concealment vs concealment etc.

And on that point....RAW, if I conceal something on myself successfully, and someone makes Detect Concealment on me, that's just it then, they find the knife or w/e? There only way to slip something through is to have them fail a roll?

Anyway I digress

So what this also means is that skills can start higher in general. Because your success isn't just based off of making the roll altogether, its about making the roll AND rolling higher than your adversary (when needed)

Sure this means that things like Blacksmithing might start out higher too even without having a need to compare skills (unless there's some sort of contest?)

But let me ask you this. Do you feel that someone is professional at a skill if its under 50%? Because I'm starting to feel that myself. Look at the Secret Operative, a character based heavily on infiltration and security. Well, when I checked him out, Prowl isn't a base skill for him, though you can take it as a related skill sure...and if you do it starts at 40% or so.

Does that seem wrong to you too?

There's a lot of skills where success or failure aren't generally a huge deal, like reading languages or playing instruments, do these skills need to start at 35% as it stands?

I understand the idea of characters struggling and 'just starting out', but if one has an OCC then they're meant to be trained and capable in their basic field, at least half the time right?

Maybe I am alone in this, but I could see most if not all skills starting out with +20% bonus in addition to whatever they have, if we make it so that the important skills are contested between you and the opposition as opposed to a blind yes or no as to your own success.

The only ones I could see having a bit lower would be medical skills, because success or failure are very important there too.

Anyway these are just my rambling thoughts for the moment. Carry on.

[Killer Cyborg]

My solution:
Each person rolls a skill check.
Whichever one succeeds by the biggest margin wins.

[Killer Cyborg]

Oh, and you can be a professional with a low skill percentage.
The thing to keep in mind is that you don’t even need to roll unless something high-stakes is happening.
If you’re trying to get into your car, start it, and drive casually a few kiles to work, no need to roll Pilot Auto.
If you’re trying to reverse out of a parking lot while someone is shooting at you? Make that check.

Most professionals on the job are doing routine things most of the time.
They only have to make a check when something unusual is going on.

[zerombr]

I've heard people say that they should go by margin. That requires more math to me, do you think that's simpler than

"Succeeded with a 43%"
"Succeeded with a 72%"

player two wins.

Admittedly I lean to this version as I've seen other games use it pretty well. I think the extra math of "98% minus 23%....thats 75%"

I mean I see part of why one'd go this route, because the higher your skill the more experience you bring to it.

I had actually kicked around the idea of skills going over 100%, and anything extra gets added on to your roll.

So you have blacksmithing at 120%? You roll and add 20% to that.

[zerombr]

Oh, and you can be a professional with a low skill percentage.
The thing to keep in mind is that you don’t even need to roll unless something high-stakes is happening.
If you’re trying to get into your car, start it, and drive casually a few kiles to work, no need to roll Pilot Auto.
If you’re trying to reverse out of a parking lot while someone is shooting at you? Make that check.

Most professionals on the job are doing routine things most of the time.
They only have to make a check when something unusual is going on.

I totally agree with this, like if a player has hours to do something, I'm not making him roll to hotwire a door or whatever if he has the skill. He's not in a stressful situation. Just like horsemanship or pilot auto aren't things needed to roll. However there's many skills that are generally in the heat of the moment too, and that's what I am mostly thinking about.

I think you could say that your crafting/profession/cultural skills don't generally apply to this idea for the most part

[Natasha]

I think the basic problem is that the Palladium skill system is a pass/fail system. The percentages represent the difficulty of success, not the degree of success. Outside of combat, all opposed rolls are against relatively static target numbers such as Attribute numbers and Spell Strength. Degrees of success are found at times in these situations, but it's quite rudimentary. Combat has the concept of Critical Strike. But translating this to the skill system is possibly, if not definitely, apples to oranges.

[Shark_Force]

actually, in the back of RUE there are rules for contesting perception with % skill checks that can also be used with skill checks in general, iirc.

i mean, they're not exactly *great* rules. but they are rules

[zerombr]

yeah if I recall its something like "Change things to d20 and then roll' and I found that most weird. Palladium does its best to NOT be d20, so why are we having rolls like that?

If anything Perception should match the other skills as percentile.

[Warmaster40k]

An easy way to do contested skills is a d100 roll add the skill rank who ever is higher wins.

[Library Ogre]

Warmaster40k's method is pretty simple and used in Hackmaster; it works well.

A different version that I came up with years ago is in this article from my blog. It goes by "Highest successful roll"... so, if Bob has a 43% and Alice has a 72%, Bob might beat Alice... if she outright fails (rolls 73+), or if he rolls higher than her, while still under his 43%. I find it is simpler than "Biggest Margin", since there's no additional subtraction step, while still preserving Alice's ability to succeed in ways that Bob cannot (everything from a 44-72 is an automatic win by Alice). It also ties in with the concept of accumulation of successes over time... for each roll, you get a number of successes equal to the tens die of your roll, with a bonus success if you hit your number exactly. How long does it take to replace the arm on your giant robot? Roll Robot Mechanics until you have 20 successes... with a 72%, it might be as few as 3 rolls (each taking 4 hours), or it might take a long time if you keep rolling poorly.

[Spinachcat]

I also use "highest successful roll" because it favors the side with the greater talents, but allows for variety of results.

I don't worry about Pass/Fail not having defined levels of success because I want to move swiftly with the game (and I can add mods based on circumstances). You want to do X? Great, roll dice. Did you roll under? Super, you did X. And then I use Fumble / Crit too. I steal from RuneQuest so doubles under your skill equal crits and doubles over your skill equals fumbles. Thus, you fumble more with your weaker skills.

[zerombr]

I also use "highest successful roll" because it favors the side with the greater talents, but allows for variety of results.

I don't worry about Pass/Fail not having defined levels of success because I want to move swiftly with the game (and I can add mods based on circumstances). You want to do X? Great, roll dice. Did you roll under? Super, you did X. And then I use Fumble / Crit too. I steal from RuneQuest so doubles under your skill equal crits and doubles over your skill equals fumbles. Thus, you fumble more with your weaker skills.

do you have any good thoughts for how to assemble a Percentage skill for Perception? Right now we're using surveillance or other skills like that when possible, so in theory Perception should start less than that to make the real skill worth it, but I think everyone deserves a chance to at least look around.

[The Beast]

I also use "highest successful roll" because it favors the side with the greater talents, but allows for variety of results.

I don't worry about Pass/Fail not having defined levels of success because I want to move swiftly with the game (and I can add mods based on circumstances). You want to do X? Great, roll dice. Did you roll under? Super, you did X. And then I use Fumble / Crit too. I steal from RuneQuest so doubles under your skill equal crits and doubles over your skill equals fumbles. Thus, you fumble more with your weaker skills.

do you have any good thoughts for how to assemble a Percentage skill for Perception? Right now we're using surveillance or other skills like that when possible, so in theory Perception should start less than that to make the real skill worth it, but I think everyone deserves a chance to at least look around.

In my head I've been playing around with the base is the character's IQ + IQ bonus (if any), +5% per additional level, and if a character has something else that adds to perception then multiply that by five before adding it in. Finally make it a free skill for everyone.

[zerombr]

In my head I've been playing around with the base is the character's IQ + IQ bonus (if any), +5% per additional level, and if a character has something else that adds to perception then multiply that by five before adding it in. Finally make it a free skill for everyone.

meaning if something says "+1 to Perception" you make it 5%? We were considering adding Init into that, since reaction can easily be related to Perception.

[The Beast]

In my head I've been playing around with the base is the character's IQ + IQ bonus (if any), +5% per additional level, and if a character has something else that adds to perception then multiply that by five before adding it in. Finally make it a free skill for everyone.

meaning if something says "+1 to Perception" you make it 5%? We were considering adding Init into that, since reaction can easily be related to Perception.

Yes, because you're switching from a d20 to d%. I'd just leave out how IQ was originally added to perception and just add in the normal IQ skill bonus instead.

[Spinachcat]

do you have any good thoughts for how to assemble a Percentage skill for Perception?

Nope, only bad thoughts!

Right now we're using surveillance or other skills like that when possible, so in theory Perception should start less than that to make the real skill worth it, but I think everyone deserves a chance to at least look around.

For me, that's the best solution.

What is happening in the scene that requires some kind of D100 roll vs. just looking around?

I believe in PC competence. They have sensory organs and know how to use them without rolling dice. Thus, I believe in minimizing ever asking for Perception rolls of any kind. Instead, what are the PCs doing with their action? Scanning the room with IR goggles? Walking around touching stuff? Searching through the place? Just taking a moment to look around and listen?

As the GM, I am the PC's sensory feedback. I need to tell the players what their PCs see, hear, feel, smell, taste and how they perceive it. I am much more interested in skills being used for intuitive jumps or knowledge dumps based on what is in the scene.

AKA, if you are wearing IR googles, you will see heat signature in your line of sight. If you search the place, you get far more info than if you just stand by the door and look from afar. If you take time to look and listen, you get more info than someone who glances and moves on.

For example, they discover a room full of mechanical junk. They can see the junk, they can see the rust, and they can see that there are old parts in greasy piles. The question is whether any of them can evaluate the junk or notice that some bits are actually in better shape and rare, thus useful and sellable? Now we're talking a skill check or an ability check.

[Shark_Force]

do you have any good thoughts for how to assemble a Percentage skill for Perception?

Nope, only bad thoughts!

Right now we're using surveillance or other skills like that when possible, so in theory Perception should start less than that to make the real skill worth it, but I think everyone deserves a chance to at least look around.

For me, that's the best solution.

What is happening in the scene that requires some kind of D100 roll vs. just looking around?

I believe in PC competence. They have sensory organs and know how to use them without rolling dice. Thus, I believe in minimizing ever asking for Perception rolls of any kind. Instead, what are the PCs doing with their action? Scanning the room with IR goggles? Walking around touching stuff? Searching through the place? Just taking a moment to look around and listen?

As the GM, I am the PC's sensory feedback. I need to tell the players what their PCs see, hear, feel, smell, taste and how they perceive it. I am much more interested in skills being used for intuitive jumps or knowledge dumps based on what is in the scene.

AKA, if you are wearing IR googles, you will see heat signature in your line of sight. If you search the place, you get far more info than if you just stand by the door and look from afar. If you take time to look and listen, you get more info than someone who glances and moves on.

For example, they discover a room full of mechanical junk. They can see the junk, they can see the rust, and they can see that there are old parts in greasy piles. The question is whether any of them can evaluate the junk or notice that some bits are actually in better shape and rare, thus useful and sellable? Now we're talking a skill check or an ability check.

well, given the context of this being in a thread for opposed checks, what is happening in the room is likely to include such possibilities as someone using a prowl check (which gets easier as they go up levels, but currently doesn't get harder against enemies that have practiced being more aware of their surroundings). or something having been hidden with a concealment skill. or someone having set up an ambush with the appropriate skill. or a person wearing a disguise. and so on.

in other words, they are using their perception capability to counteract the counter-perception abilities of other people.

[Spinachcat]

in other words, they are using their perception capability to counteract the counter-perception abilities of other people.

But what are the PCs doing? To me, that's FAR more important to understand before adjudicating a dice roll. Also, what exactly are we contesting? A bomb concealed hastily minutes ago? A treasure concealed generations ago?

It's these numerous variables that keep me from wanting to use any one-size-fits-all mechanic. While the who-rolls-higher works very well, I want to take into consideration what is happening in the scene.

Also, any contested roll mechanic is going to get wonky when you add in magic, cybernetics and psionics which mimic senses, increase senses, or alter the physical environment to make various forms of perception or counter-actions to be less effective or even moot.

But beyond all that, my goal with any RPG is immersion. Having players interact specifically with the scene instead of just making generic search rolls increases player buy-in. Of course, everything has its limits.

[zerombr]

okay lets put out some examples.


Someone's sneaking up behind you.


Someone's hid an item you need to find.


(slightly off topic but still interested) Someone's lying to your face


You're being tailed.

[Jack Burton]

Perhaps if in the event both characters have the same skill, like tailing, both roll and the higher roll prevails, leading to a successful survillance or a discovery they're being followed. That would mirror real life in that a lower-lever person would have a higher chance of being spotted by a more seasoned character who also possesses the same skill and could recognize the signs it's being used on them.

The same could be said for countering interrogation, detect concealment or detect ambush. I agree that it doesn't make sense for someone to roll on interrogation, for example, and their success roll doesn't take into account whether the captive possesses that same skill which can be used to thei captive's advantage.

Like I said, just an idea if both have the same skill.

[zerombr]

yeah thats mostly what I'm going with. Surveillance vs Surveillance. etc.

However I do think there needs to be a generic skill for people that aren't trained. Sure the chance of success is a lot lower, but I think being absolutely helpless vs a 98% prowl isn't good either.

I wrote up a more indepth 'dramatic' interrogation as part of my super sleuth rewrite, which I feel does pretty well. I actually spoke to someone in the military to put that together in a more proper way. Even in that I noted the fact that interrogating someone with that same skill, can lead to backfires.