Weapon master power armour consideration

[iteration27]

so in my friends game ive been playing one of his NPC's,a Battle cat bush pilot,but the character has to leave,so im making a new character to use.He's got me starting at level one,but as the rest of the party is lvl 6-7 hes being generous with the starting equipment.Now my character is an ancient weapon master.I was going to specialise in ranged weapons,but i rolled a masters level education so decided to take the melee specialisation too.as its a rifts game ive been given a bunch of skills as per the revised conversion book,which has enabled me to take the skills necessary to be an elite power armour pilot.as a weapons master im restricted to only being able to use ancient weapons,but my GM has ok'd the use of power armour as its not a weapon itself.hes allowing me to start with a power armour of choice,with no in built weapons.

so my question,quite simply,is whats the best power armour for an ancient weapons specialist to use?

[Blue_Lion]

Nurni Meca knight (rifts merc) might be a good choice, strong melee weapon (energy sword) poses flight to help you close distance.
Removing the built in range weapons would not be hard.

Terain hoper basically allows you to do long distance jumps to close distance and death from above.

The bunny PA from aranzo without its rail gun has auto dodge issue being it is TW.

Most PA I can think of is built around ranged attacks with melee being worse case.

[iteration27]

im not sure if the GM would allow the use of an energy sword.he might consider it to be too high tech a weapon.yeah the terrain hopper is something i thought of as it has no in built weapons,i think.maybe there are other similar light PA that might be better though.maybe with built in vibroblades,as i know im being allowed to use those.also as an archer,it would have to be something i could comfortably use a bow with.maybe theres something in NG2 but i dont have those books.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't think you'll find much in terms of PA + Archer combo as the PS of the PA might cause issues (you'd need a bow with a high strength class requirement like: SN).

As for melee weapons (might have to forgo loading up missiles or using builtin guns or stip them out OR trade them out):
-Flying Titan (main book)
-various SAMAS (main book/various)
-NG Samson (main book)
-Glitterboy without a Boomgun (main book, variants exist in others)
-Kittani Serpent PA (Atlantis, no built-in weapons)
-Naruni Mecha Knight (mercenaries)
-Rifts Japan has a few sword wielding PA
-Merc Ops has an anti-vampire unit you might be able to adapt (swap out anti-vamp gear for general purpose equivalents)
-Mindwerks SB's Stingray PA (no built in weapons)
-Warlords of Russia's Wing Rider PA

Something to run by the GM as options if none of these work:
-see if the GM will allow you to treat a (stock or custom) Full Conversion Borg as a suit of PA
-use the Robot Construction rules in SB1 to create an accessory unit (instead of AI driven) type of robot at the correct size.

[iteration27]

its not so much a desire to combo,as no power armour is going to be built with archery in mind.just need a suit that isnt too bulky as to look ridiculous using a bow,seein as its my only ranged combat weapon,except for thrown items.which is why the terrain hopper was my first initial thought as its looks no bulkier than a suit of EBA.and the strength of the suit isnt an issue as i'll be using a steel tree bow. a number of the armours mentioned i think are too bulky and im not allowed anything from outside of North America,so some of those others are out.but a couple of the lighter ones like the stingray,might be worth looking at.

[13eowulf]

Well, if he is being generous, consider biotech. Such as the organitech armor in Systems Failure, lemurian bio-armour, or a Splicers Host Armour.
Lemurians and/or the Jungle Elves have biomancy created energy bows, and I think being 'natural' or living gets around the issue of being too high tech.
And there is a Rifter article that has a Splicers bow, Rifter 37 I think.

If allowed a host armor the benefit there is just don't buy any weapons, or only ancient style blade weapons.
But the rest in defence or stealth or agility, etc.

[iteration27]

lol generous as in lettin me start with rifts level equipment,including the PA,rather than just the normal sdc gear id normally start with.i think the splicers stuff and the biomancy stuff counts as "not from north america" anyway.Splicer armour would be great though.

Taking an elite power armour skill probably seems like im just trying to stack on to my already hefty combat abilities,but you have to consider that the rest of the party is,on average,5 lvls higher than me and the adventure is geared to the higher lvl characters(i dont really understand why im startin at lvl 1).That havin been said,im not looking for the most powerful option.just the most appropriate option,in sofar as PA can be considered appropriate for an ancient weapons master,to be able to keep up with the other characters,who are a mix of magical and supernatural powerhouses.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Aurora Blazer from Northern Gun (2?).

Highly mobile (so you can close in quickly), limited flight, anime/super-hero landings from great heights. Gun is hand-held, so you... just dont use it.

Get a good melee weapon (the DX-011 Vibro Chainsword carried by the Thunder Hound Dog Boy Power Armor would be great - base 4D6MD + Robot PS damage + 1D6MD from Fencing is nothing to sneeze at.

There also the Cougar Power Armor in the same book. Big forearm blades (4D6 + Fencing), nasty hand claws (6D6 MD from a full-claw strike), nastier foot claws (6D6+6 full-claw kicks), and both of those SHOULD also benefit fromFencing, as Fencing applies he bonus damage to swords and knives/daggers, and claws are covered under dagger WP. GM may not agree there, but ask.

Also, if you wanted to do an Asian-themed martial artist, the Mantis PA (same book) could fit wih a “Mantis Style” martial artist.

As for removing the ranged weapons... why bother? You dont have to remove them to not use them. It could also spur some good RP conundrum... do i go against my beleifs and use the plasma blaster to save that guy i cant get to in time? Stuff like that.

Also, the Aurora Blazer (and maybe the other two, didnt look) has the UEL eclip adapters in the fore-arms, so you could get eclip powered melee weapons like the Wilks Laser sword or Power Halberd (Phase World) and use them as well.

Alternatively/Additionally, could make the Character a Demigod (becoming an MDC creature and perhaps avoiding the need for Power Armor), gaining supernatual PS, and take psionics or magic as your DG power choice and use a Psi-sword and magic sword (Flaming Sword, Lightblade, etc). This also opens up your future equipment upgrade path to TW melee weapons (some of which are quite powerful).

Just some thoughts.

Personally, if sticking with the modernized-AncientxWeapons master + Power Armor theme, id go with the Aurora Blazer + DX-011 Vibro Chain Sword (final damage should be 6D6 per strike factoring in Robot PS and Fencing). Leave the mini-missile,launchers intact (why pay to remove them?) and just leave them unloaded or load them up with non-weaponized missiles like flame supression and safety foam. Take advantage of the UEL and grab a Wilk’s Laser Sword or two as a backup/off-hand. Maybe cajole a Power Halberd (1D6x10).

[iteration27]

Aurora Blazer sounds cool.like a souped up terrain hopper.sounds more like the kinda thing im looking for.glad you mentioned it,cos i dont have the book.Although if theres something a bit less flashy,maybe stealthier,that might suit me better.My main focus for the character is archery over melee,although his melee will be hardcore anyway,but of secondary importance to me.I'm aiming for a more special forces/sniper approach to combat,falling back on melee when necessary.

I'm going with mortal combat ability to distinguish myself from the rest of the group which already includes a number of supernaturals.i like to be different.

[Khanibal]

I'm partial to the wing blades of the Violator SAMAS.

[13eowulf]

If you want stealth, the Chipwell Sky Power Armor from Merc Ops may be the way to go. It isnt the most powerful, it has lower MDC than many, and it has no built in weapons. BUT it is explicitly capable of silent gliding.

[13eowulf]

OR you could go with an Angrar Mark II Power Armor and its 700 MDC main body from Mercenaries (also, no need to read the left hand column of fluff at all, it is entirely irrelevant to your character, you can trust me.)

[iteration27]

I think youre just trying to get me killed lol not really looking for a flying armour though,i prefer ground models

[13eowulf]

I think youre just trying to get me killed lol not really looking for a flying armour though,i prefer ground models

I would NEVER do such a thing perish the thought.

The Sky PA is a legit suggestion.

Also for stealth, the NE-SA40 Stealth Power Armor (aka "Black Fist") is an option, they are available in North America.

[iteration27]

oh,well my apologies...tiredness must be stoking my paranoia.
Oh its a legit suggestion,its even sturdy enough for my purposes.But like i mentioned,not really lookin at a flying suit.id much rather have something lower profile,sneaking around on foot.and naruni gear isnt on the table im afraid.

im beginning to think my pickiness is going to prevent me finding exactly what im looking for.

The NE-SA40 is pretty much what im looking for though.i would have thought someone would have made something similar,although less advanced.

[13eowulf]

oh,well my apologies...tiredness must be stoking my paranoia.
Oh its a legit suggestion,its even sturdy enough for my purposes.But like i mentioned,not really lookin at a flying suit.id much rather have something lower profile,sneaking around on foot.and naruni gear isnt on the table im afraid.

im beginning to think my pickiness is going to prevent me finding exactly what im looking for.

The NE-SA40 is pretty much what im looking for though.i would have thought someone would have made something similar,although less advanced.

Stealth and Powered Armour in Rifts dont really go together. That is normally reserved for skills, magic, and psi.

There are some stealth body armours, not PAs. Like the NG Stealth Suit in Merc Ops.

Battle Mage Controllers get access to a stealth based Automaton.

But most GMs I have encountered wont even let you roll prowl in PA, at least not without stiff penalties.

[iteration27]

well darn it all to heck.you've gone and ruined my entire concept lol

but no,i will find something,somewhere,some how...i think someone suggested using robot construction rules...but i dont recall any kind of stealth augmentation in there.

Well actual stealth is a secondary consideration anyway,and i should at least be able to find some low profile,man sized armour somewhere,that will fit to my purpose.I think I'll see if i can get NG 2.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

oh,well my apologies...tiredness must be stoking my paranoia.
Oh its a legit suggestion,its even sturdy enough for my purposes.But like i mentioned,not really lookin at a flying suit.id much rather have something lower profile,sneaking around on foot.and naruni gear isnt on the table im afraid.

im beginning to think my pickiness is going to prevent me finding exactly what im looking for.

The NE-SA40 is pretty much what im looking for though.i would have thought someone would have made something similar,although less advanced.

Stealth and Powered Armour in Rifts dont really go together. That is normally reserved for skills, magic, and psi.

There are some stealth body armours, not PAs. Like the NG Stealth Suit in Merc Ops.

There are two stealth PAs in NG2, the Sabre and Silent Shadow. Naruni also makes one.

Battle Mage Controllers get access to a stealth based Automaton.

But most GMs I have encountered wont even let you roll prowl in PA, at least not without stiff penalties.

Then those GMs arent playing by RAW. Theres absolutely nothing that says PA cant prowl. In fact, some have specific prowl penalties listed, and some are well suited to it (like the Striker SAM and Terror Trooper, which are both made for use by the Special Forces).

Hell, even Full Conversion Borgs can prowl, though the penalties because of the chasis (if a pre-made chasis) and Heavy Infantry Armor can make it mechanically impossible to succeed and a few of the chasis are heavy enough to prohibit it. There are a few robots that can prowl (like the Scorpion and Spider Scout walkers), and other vehicles (some hovercycles even have bonuses to prowl).

[iteration27]

ah ha,now we're talking...so i'll definitely get NG2 then...NG1 aswell i suppose,just for the sake of completeness

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Also, Archery seems like it will -severely- limit your damage. I mean, thats fine if it fits your concept. Nothing says you have to be blowing people up in a single attack or anything. But the tech arrows available in game are pretty weaksauce. Another area where being a magic user might be more beneficial (you could do some pretty baller things with TW arrows) - or even the T-Archer from Splynn Dimensional Market.

I’d still stick with the Aurora Blazer, honestly. Get it a non-flashy paintjob and itll be plenty stealthy. Its man-sized and agile, so its not like you have a huge bulk to hide, and the jet assisted leaps could be extremely helpful in repositioning for firing arrows (it can leap several hundred feet). You could leap from building to building, or treetop to hilltop, etc.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

ah ha,now we're talking...so i'll definitely get NG2 then...NG1 aswell i suppose,just for the sake of completeness

Its split up so you sorta have to. NG1 is Robots and Weapons (and the actual setting info for NG/MIj NG2 is Armor (environmental and otherwise), Power Armor, and Vehicles

There are lots of good PAs in NG2. Most of them are man-sized, and there are several specialized armors that are really cool.

Also, got that slightly wrong - its the Silent Shadow and Night Reaper that are the stealth PAs, though the Saber is well suited. Its a completely weaponless PA - meant to be cheap, and uses the UEL to power any hand held energy weapons. Its very man sized and suited to stealth.

[iteration27]

actually the bow wont be as weak as it seems.the characters strike bonus with the bow will be high,maybe higher than if using a gun at equivalent level. i'll have to check that,but i think its +1s every three lvls starting at lvl 1 in addition to archery and targeting.but thats not the point.damage is the point.ok i can use say a high explosive arrow doin 3 or 4d6,cant remember which...about the same as an average rifle i think.but i can fire 2 arrows at once(upto 4 at higher levels) with the weapon masters special skills for 1 melee action,at half bonus to strike(which ok is much harder to hit with),but thats 8d6 damage in one attack,which is pretty decent.comparable to a particle beam or plasma rifle.
the main disadvantage is the very limited ammo.can only carry so many arrows and three arrows an action will eat through them pretty quickly.but then i've got throwing knives or whatever for closer range.i can throw three of those at once,plus my bow attacks and thrown attacks are much greater range than normal.with my bow i could probably out range a large number of rifles.

then,once my ammos gone,i have the melee weapon mastery which gives me levelling bonuses a plenty in addition to my usual weapon skills,enabling me to out fight most opponents except for seriously enhanced enemies and even then,i could probably outfight them.

factor in the extensive use of stealth and ambush when possible and he should be pretty effective for a guy with a bow and knives.

yeah the aurora sounds good,dont get me wrong.the ability to relocate quickly or close rapidly when reduced to melee would fit extremely well with the characters abilities.but i do prefer a stealthy approach and the aurora doesnt sound too stealthy(although it might be).But its definitely one i'll look at when i get to sit down with the book and compare the PA's im interested in.

[iteration27]

ahhhh night reaper...that sounds cool

[eliakon]

Battle Mage Controllers get access to a stealth based Automaton.

But most GMs I have encountered wont even let you roll prowl in PA, at least not without stiff penalties.

Then those GMs arent playing by RAW. Theres absolutely nothing that says PA cant prowl. In fact, some have specific prowl penalties listed, and some are well suited to it (like the Striker SAM and Terror Trooper, which are both made for use by the Special Forces).

Hell, even Full Conversion Borgs can prowl, though the penalties because of the chasis (if a pre-made chasis) and Heavy Infantry Armor can make it mechanically impossible to succeed and a few of the chasis are heavy enough to prohibit it. There are a few robots that can prowl (like the Scorpion and Spider Scout walkers), and other vehicles (some hovercycles even have bonuses to prowl).

Japan page 132 under Power Armor Features
"Unless noted otherwise, all power armor have a prowl penalty. Light armor under 9 feet tall are -50% to prow. Large, heavy, and/or bulky power armor cannot prowl at all."

The RAW is that only light PA can prowl at all... and then at a massive penalty.

[iteration27]

oh thats fine...im not looking for anything heavy.and these stealth armours in NG may have special prowl rules or whatever,bein designed for stealth.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Battle Mage Controllers get access to a stealth based Automaton.

But most GMs I have encountered wont even let you roll prowl in PA, at least not without stiff penalties.

Then those GMs arent playing by RAW. Theres absolutely nothing that says PA cant prowl. In fact, some have specific prowl penalties listed, and some are well suited to it (like the Striker SAM and Terror Trooper, which are both made for use by the Special Forces).

Hell, even Full Conversion Borgs can prowl, though the penalties because of the chasis (if a pre-made chasis) and Heavy Infantry Armor can make it mechanically impossible to succeed and a few of the chasis are heavy enough to prohibit it. There are a few robots that can prowl (like the Scorpion and Spider Scout walkers), and other vehicles (some hovercycles even have bonuses to prowl).

Japan page 132 under Power Armor Features
"Unless noted otherwise, all power armor have a prowl penalty. Light armor under 9 feet tall are -50% to prow. Large, heavy, and/or bulky power armor cannot prowl at all."

The RAW is that only light PA can prowl at all... and then at a massive penalty.

Nerp.

I mean, it sucks for Japanese Power Armor, but has no bearing of ANY kind on other power armors. In fact, that section even calls out Japanese PAs at the end, and mentions Japanese pilots specifically several times. Its clearly referrencing Japanese Power Armors.

We can check the similar “Power Armor Features” in every other book that has one - FQ, NG2, CWC, RUE (published after Japan)... those are just the ones ive got sitting here. All 4 of those are published after Japan... and absolutely none of them mention this supposed rule.

So, weirdly, Golden-Age Japanese PA sucks.

As for the stealth PAs in NG2, both have no prowl penalty of any kind (specifically called out).

[eliakon]

Battle Mage Controllers get access to a stealth based Automaton.

But most GMs I have encountered wont even let you roll prowl in PA, at least not without stiff penalties.

Then those GMs arent playing by RAW. Theres absolutely nothing that says PA cant prowl. In fact, some have specific prowl penalties listed, and some are well suited to it (like the Striker SAM and Terror Trooper, which are both made for use by the Special Forces).

Hell, even Full Conversion Borgs can prowl, though the penalties because of the chasis (if a pre-made chasis) and Heavy Infantry Armor can make it mechanically impossible to succeed and a few of the chasis are heavy enough to prohibit it. There are a few robots that can prowl (like the Scorpion and Spider Scout walkers), and other vehicles (some hovercycles even have bonuses to prowl).

Japan page 132 under Power Armor Features
"Unless noted otherwise, all power armor have a prowl penalty. Light armor under 9 feet tall are -50% to prow. Large, heavy, and/or bulky power armor cannot prowl at all."

The RAW is that only light PA can prowl at all... and then at a massive penalty.

Nerp.

I mean, it sucks for Japanese Power Armor, but has no bearing of ANY kind on other power armors. In fact, that section even calls out Japanese PAs at the end, and mentions Japanese pilots specifically several times. Its clearly referrencing Japanese Power Armors.

We can check the similar “Power Armor Features” in every other book that has one - FQ, NG2, CWC, RUE (published after Japan)... those are just the ones ive got sitting here. All 4 of those are published after Japan... and absolutely none of them mention this supposed rule.

So, weirdly, Golden-Age Japanese PA sucks.

As for the stealth PAs in NG2, both have no prowl penalty of any kind (specifically called out).

That is a house rule of course yes

But the section is not "Japanese power armor features"
It is standard to all power armor, not just Japanese power armor.
It is relevant because Japan has one of the few power armor that CAN prowl (The super spy)
The only thing that is specific to Japan is when it starts talking about "Power Armor of Japan"... which is AFTER the blanket rules on power armor. Which I again note state "ALL power armor" not "All Japanese Power Armor" or anything else.


My suspicion is that it was not reprinted because the idea of Power Armor and Robots prowling is absurd so most people were able to know it wasn't able to be done.
But the rule does exist... it is of course up to the individual GM on if they wish to use that rule or not.

[iteration27]

right,well the prowl penalties for power armours may have just been overlooked for books after japan,its not inconceiveable being rifts.but the fact that the stealth armours specifically mention prowl is good.so theres no ambiguity concerning stealth specific armour.

I did make a mistake earlier discussing the characters combat bomuses.for melee,the bonuses do not say in addition to weapon skills.and the character cant choose weapon skills anyway.so technically its just an improved weapon proficiency profile covering all melee weapons.But for archery it says the bonuses are in additon to targeting/archery(which is a W.P so cant be taken anyway).But i was remembering my GMS ruling,he said it was clear the character should have WP A/T so i should put it on my sheet and he'd allow me to select one melee weapon proficiency which would stack with the class ability,as he felt weapon proficiencies should also be included in the class but werent mentioned.

[eliakon]

right,well the prowl penalties for power armours may have just been overlooked for books after japan,its not inconceiveable being rifts.but the fact that the stealth armours specifically mention prowl is good.so theres no ambiguity concerning stealth specific armour.

Yah, Palladium is famous for putting rules in obscure places making it difficult to find all the relevant rules. You get surprised all the time buy stuff just like this jumping out and surpriseing you (I guess obscurely placed rules have no prowl penalty either ).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

right,well the prowl penalties for power armours may have just been overlooked for books after japan,its not inconceiveable being rifts.but the fact that the stealth armours specifically mention prowl is good.so theres no ambiguity concerning stealth specific armour.

The problem is there is no reason to assume those penalties apply to anything oher than what is being discussed - Japanese Power Armor, of which there is even a list in that section and constant mentions (in like four different places) about Japanese pilots, japanese power armor, etc.

On top of that, while i can definitely believe that said rules may have been overlooked once or twice afterwards... I’m not buying that for one moment because it was NEVER mentioned again (or before, as there is a section in thr RMB as well about features common to power armor, and this rule isnt there), including in the GMG and (most importantly) RUE, where any blanket rule would have been included - and also not included in any -other- section that lists common attributes for Power Armor (of which there are several). And then add that NONE of those sections can really be used outside of the books they are in, because the lists tend to each differ slightly. I.E NG power armors have slightly different standard features than CS power armors, and they are both different than Japanese or even FQ... even though none of those sections explicitly say they are specific to those books or nations. They all just say “features common to power armor”.

I did make a mistake earlier discussing the characters combat bomuses.for melee,the bonuses do not say in addition to weapon skills.and the character cant choose weapon skills anyway.so technically its just an improved weapon proficiency profile covering all melee weapons.But for archery it says the bonuses are in additon to targeting/archery(which is a W.P so cant be taken anyway).But i was remembering my GMS ruling,he said it was clear the character should have WP A/T so i should put it on my sheet and he'd allow me to select one melee weapon proficiency which would stack with the class ability,as he felt weapon proficiencies should also be included in the class but werent mentioned.

Honestly, W.P.s wouldnt be neccessary with that character anyway since the blanket bonuses it gets are better than WPs IIRC. But if hes willing to let them stack, thats not exactly going to break anything either.

Fencing, though, is NOT a W.P. - its a physical skill. If youre going to be using a sword in melee, its amazing (extra 1D6 damage, and a strike and parry bonus).

[dreicunan]

right,well the prowl penalties for power armours may have just been overlooked for books after japan,its not inconceiveable being rifts.but the fact that the stealth armours specifically mention prowl is good.so theres no ambiguity concerning stealth specific armour.

The problem is there is no reason to assume those penalties apply to anything oher than what is being discussed - Japanese Power Armor, of which there is even a list in that section and constant mentions (in like four different places) about Japanese pilots, japanese power armor, etc.

On top of that, while i can definitely believe that said rules may have been overlooked once or twice afterwards... I’m not buying that for one moment because it was NEVER mentioned again (or before, as there is a section in thr RMB as well about features common to power armor, and this rule isnt there), including in the GMG and (most importantly) RUE, where any blanket rule would have been included - and also not included in any -other- section that lists common attributes for Power Armor (of which there are several). And then add that NONE of those sections can really be used outside of the books they are in, because the lists tend to each differ slightly. I.E NG power armors have slightly different standard features than CS power armors, and they are both different than Japanese or even FQ... even though none of those sections explicitly say they are specific to those books or nations. They all just say “features common to power armor”.

That list of power armor includes standard, traditional Glitter Boys and a slightly modified SAMAS. Based on the entry for the SAMAS, I find it hard to believe that part of the modification was to make it prowl at -50%. It is more likely that the rule was intended to be universal at the time but was then forgotten (wouldn't be the first time Palladium has let something like that slip through).

Personally, I'd use the rule, but would reduce the penalty for some models. After all, it sure looks like that forester was trying to be sneaky on p. 95 of NG2 (and he failed his roll).

Edit: I'd accidentally disabled BBCode

[Blue_Lion]

actually the bow wont be as weak as it seems.the characters strike bonus with the bow will be high,maybe higher than if using a gun at equivalent level. i'll have to check that,but i think its +1s every three lvls starting at lvl 1 in addition to archery and targeting.but thats not the point.damage is the point.ok i can use say a high explosive arrow doin 3 or 4d6,cant remember which...about the same as an average rifle i think.but i can fire 2 arrows at once(upto 4 at higher levels) with the weapon masters special skills for 1 melee action,at half bonus to strike(which ok is much harder to hit with),but thats 8d6 damage in one attack,which is pretty decent.comparable to a particle beam or plasma rifle.
the main disadvantage is the very limited ammo.can only carry so many arrows and three arrows an action will eat through them pretty quickly.but then i've got throwing knives or whatever for closer range.i can throw three of those at once,plus my bow attacks and thrown attacks are much greater range than normal.with my bow i could probably out range a large number of rifles.

then,once my ammos gone,i have the melee weapon mastery which gives me levelling bonuses a plenty in addition to my usual weapon skills,enabling me to out fight most opponents except for seriously enhanced enemies and even then,i could probably outfight them.

factor in the extensive use of stealth and ambush when possible and he should be pretty effective for a guy with a bow and knives.

yeah the aurora sounds good,dont get me wrong.the ability to relocate quickly or close rapidly when reduced to melee would fit extremely well with the characters abilities.but i do prefer a stealthy approach and the aurora doesnt sound too stealthy(although it might be).But its definitely one i'll look at when i get to sit down with the book and compare the PA's im interested in.

Bows are some of the most versatile weapons in rifts. Depending on the arrows available. (Goblin grenades can be arrows if you can use them) The big problem is a tech limiter as explosive arrows and gas arrows are considered high tech arrows in rifts if I recall.

[Blue_Lion]

all ready stated.

[iteration27]

yeah,when i realized the weapon master bonus was better than the actual WP's i also thought that the lack of actual WP's was intentional.But im not going to argue with my GM,its his game and I Am benefitting.I will most definitely take fencing.

And yes,bows are indeed awesome(which is my own personal opinion about bows in general,in game and out)I like the versatility of ammo that a bow has and they're a silent weapon,which makes them great for ambushes(yes,i know other weapons are silent).
My GM isnt making an issue with high tech ammo for the bow,just with the types of weapons i can use,ie no guns...and im not being allowed to use any high tech melee weapons that dont have a physical blade,so no plasma or laser swords.(again,its his game and I defer to his preference)

As for the whole stealth debate,i can see what each side is saying.But personally,having thought about it,i would probably go with power armours all having a large penalty to prowl,unless designed specifically as a stealth armour.it makes more sense to me,with PA's being heavy and not designed for stealth in general.they probably clank around quite a bit,unless designed not to.But again,thats more opinion than anything.

Actually while im here,my GM has a few house rules concerning robots that i'd like some comment on as im still not THAT familiar with the rules and how they interact.

1.you cant parry giant size opponents(robots,dragons etc) only dodge them.
2.Giant sized robots(specifically) can only parry giant sized opponents and cannot dodge melee strikes from human sized opponents.
3.Giant robots and vehicles have an AR of 18,non military vehicles have an AR of 14...any roll to strike under the AR does half damage.
4.when dodging(this does not apply to giant robots or vehicles)a successful dodge works as normal and a failed dodge reduces damage by half,auto dodges work as normal.

so has anyone tried house rules like this,do you think they work.if you havent tried them,do you think they would work?

[ShadowLogan]

its not so much a desire to combo,as no power armour is going to be built with archery in mind.just need a suit that isnt too bulky as to look ridiculous using a bow,seein as its my only ranged combat weapon,except for thrown items.which is why the terrain hopper was my first initial thought as its looks no bulkier than a suit of EBA.and the strength of the suit isnt an issue as i'll be using a steel tree bow. a number of the armours mentioned i think are too bulky and im not allowed anything from outside of North America,so some of those others are out.but a couple of the lighter ones like the stingray,might be worth looking at.

The desire for something to work with the bow is a handicap for power armor, have you considered Powered Armor? Powered Armor should not be confused with Power Armor, Powered Armor is basically EBA with Exo-Skeleton that runs on Eclips/batteries where Power Armor comes with more MDC and a nuclear level power source (generally).

Range and Payload do place limits on the bow, however if the GM is willing (and you have WB: 15 Spirit West) take a look at the laser bow (WB15 pg203). you lose the option for trading arrows out, but it counters the payload.

[Blue_Lion]

yeah,when i realized the weapon master bonus was better than the actual WP's i also thought that the lack of actual WP's was intentional.But im not going to argue with my GM,its his game and I Am benefitting.I will most definitely take fencing.

And yes,bows are indeed awesome(which is my own personal opinion about bows in general,in game and out)I like the versatility of ammo that a bow has and they're a silent weapon,which makes them great for ambushes(yes,i know other weapons are silent).
My GM isnt making an issue with high tech ammo for the bow,just with the types of weapons i can use,ie no guns...and im not being allowed to use any high tech melee weapons that dont have a physical blade,so no plasma or laser swords.(again,its his game and I defer to his preference)

As for the whole stealth debate,i can see what each side is saying.But personally,having thought about it,i would probably go with power armours all having a large penalty to prowl,unless designed specifically as a stealth armour.it makes more sense to me,with PA's being heavy and not designed for stealth in general.they probably clank around quite a bit,unless designed not to.But again,thats more opinion than anything.

Actually while im here,my GM has a few house rules concerning robots that i'd like some comment on as im still not THAT familiar with the rules and how they interact.

1.you cant parry giant size opponents(robots,dragons etc) only dodge them.
2.Giant sized robots(specifically) can only parry giant sized opponents and cannot dodge melee strikes from human sized opponents.
3.Giant robots and vehicles have an AR of 18,non military vehicles have an AR of 14...any roll to strike under the AR does half damage.
4.when dodging(this does not apply to giant robots or vehicles)a successful dodge works as normal and a failed dodge reduces damage by half,auto dodges work as normal.

so has anyone tried house rules like this,do you think they work.if you havent tried them,do you think they would work?

They work for him. I can see the logic he is using with giant robots. Hard to deflect something the size of your body with a sword.

One of my most versatile combatants was a ninja TW with a bow as his main weapon. Using goblin and tech arrows I had an arrow for almost anything. Designed an advanced quiver to change the arrow heads on demand so I had 24 arrows that could be any arrow in my arsenal. So bow is a good choice of weapons.

[iteration27]

yes i am indeed familiar with exoskeleton armours and did consider them,but seein as my fellow party members are generally stronger,faster and more durable than my human character,i decided on power armour to let me "keep up" with them.I do understand that a bow may seem wasted on a power armour unit,but its my personal opinion that it is just that.a matter of opinion.a bow can be every bit as effective as modern weapons if used intelligently,which is what i intend.Im not going toe to toe with anything unless i have to and if i do,i expect that i would have already weakened my opponent with bow ambush technique and can probably finish it off fairly quickly in melee.I did consider the laser bow but my GM said no,its not a "bow" its a laser and that i couldnt use my multi arrow shot with it,which i agreed with,making me unconsider it.

I do love archery,from real world archery,to using archery in games like FARCRY,to characters in RPGS...i just love the style.and in a game like rifts,there are many options for bows that you might not get in other games.and i like to be different.my group has a preponderance of supernatural powers,magic and big guns.none of them are PA or robot pilots either.so my character is as different to the rest of them as possible,which i like.

Yeah my GM does say that the rules work well.the players offer more of a mixed bag of opinion,but i'd say 70% are ok with how they work.i just havent played the RAW so i dont know how the changes affect the game balance personally and whether i would agree with them or not.but yes,i would agree that the parrying giant size opponents rule makes sense on the surface.

[dreicunan]

yeah,when i realized the weapon master bonus was better than the actual WP's i also thought that the lack of actual WP's was intentional.But im not going to argue with my GM,its his game and I Am benefitting.I will most definitely take fencing.

And yes,bows are indeed awesome(which is my own personal opinion about bows in general,in game and out)I like the versatility of ammo that a bow has and they're a silent weapon,which makes them great for ambushes(yes,i know other weapons are silent).
My GM isnt making an issue with high tech ammo for the bow,just with the types of weapons i can use,ie no guns...and im not being allowed to use any high tech melee weapons that dont have a physical blade,so no plasma or laser swords.(again,its his game and I defer to his preference)

As for the whole stealth debate,i can see what each side is saying.But personally,having thought about it,i would probably go with power armours all having a large penalty to prowl,unless designed specifically as a stealth armour.it makes more sense to me,with PA's being heavy and not designed for stealth in general.they probably clank around quite a bit,unless designed not to.But again,thats more opinion than anything.

Actually while im here,my GM has a few house rules concerning robots that i'd like some comment on as im still not THAT familiar with the rules and how they interact.

1.you cant parry giant size opponents(robots,dragons etc) only dodge them.
2.Giant sized robots(specifically) can only parry giant sized opponents and cannot dodge melee strikes from human sized opponents.
3.Giant robots and vehicles have an AR of 18,non military vehicles have an AR of 14...any roll to strike under the AR does half damage.
4.when dodging(this does not apply to giant robots or vehicles)a successful dodge works as normal and a failed dodge reduces damage by half,auto dodges work as normal.

so has anyone tried house rules like this,do you think they work.if you havent tried them,do you think they would work?

Those will certainly increase the durability of vehicles and robots. Does he assign a similar thresh hold for power armor? What about chromium based armor (which in addition to laser resistance is also denser, hence why the glitterboy has more mdc than most robots or tanks)?

The dodging rule seems like it is designed to reward you for giving up an opportunity to attack,

[guardiandashi]

yes i am indeed familiar with exoskeleton armours and did consider them,but seein as my fellow party members are generally stronger,faster and more durable than my human character,i decided on power armour to let me "keep up" with them.I do understand that a bow may seem wasted on a power armour unit,but its my personal opinion that it is just that.a matter of opinion.a bow can be every bit as effective as modern weapons if used intelligently,which is what i intend.Im not going toe to toe with anything unless i have to and if i do,i expect that i would have already weakened my opponent with bow ambush technique and can probably finish it off fairly quickly in melee.I did consider the laser bow but my GM said no,its not a "bow" its a laser and that i couldnt use my multi arrow shot with it,which i agreed with,making me unconsider it.

I do love archery,from real world archery,to using archery in games like FARCRY,to characters in RPGS...i just love the style.and in a game like rifts,there are many options for bows that you might not get in other games.and i like to be different.my group has a preponderance of supernatural powers,magic and big guns.none of them are PA or robot pilots either.so my character is as different to the rest of them as possible,which i like.

Yeah my GM does say that the rules work well.the players offer more of a mixed bag of opinion,but i'd say 70% are ok with how they work.i just havent played the RAW so i dont know how the changes affect the game balance personally and whether i would agree with them or not.but yes,i would agree that the parrying giant size opponents rule makes sense on the surface.

one thing I did in a campaign was I had my character build a compound bow built to the characters strength. while at first this doesn't sound all that impressive, when you take into account the characters strength all of a sudden that bow became scary powerful. my character had an ~60 supernatural strength bow had a more than a ton draw weight, which meant that my character could not use conventional materials, in the case of my character, the "limbs" of the bow were high tech alloys, but you might be able to substitute something like spring steel, my character also visited the "battletech" setting so the bowstring was braided diamond monofilament etc. One problem my character ran into was that her bow was so powerful that she had to use "special" materials to make the arrows because normal wood, or aluminum arrows essentially detonated on the string, as the sudden release of energy ripped them apart rather than "throwing them"

note I don't imagine you will have that issue, but it made for interesting issues to resolve.

another idea is if you are ok with it, a crossbow might work if you and the gm are ok with it.

[Khanibal]

Loot a bow off one of the Larhold barbarians.

[Blue_Lion]

yeah,when i realized the weapon master bonus was better than the actual WP's i also thought that the lack of actual WP's was intentional.But im not going to argue with my GM,its his game and I Am benefitting.I will most definitely take fencing.

And yes,bows are indeed awesome(which is my own personal opinion about bows in general,in game and out)I like the versatility of ammo that a bow has and they're a silent weapon,which makes them great for ambushes(yes,i know other weapons are silent).
My GM isnt making an issue with high tech ammo for the bow,just with the types of weapons i can use,ie no guns...and im not being allowed to use any high tech melee weapons that dont have a physical blade,so no plasma or laser swords.(again,its his game and I defer to his preference)

As for the whole stealth debate,i can see what each side is saying.But personally,having thought about it,i would probably go with power armours all having a large penalty to prowl,unless designed specifically as a stealth armour.it makes more sense to me,with PA's being heavy and not designed for stealth in general.they probably clank around quite a bit,unless designed not to.But again,thats more opinion than anything.

Actually while im here,my GM has a few house rules concerning robots that i'd like some comment on as im still not THAT familiar with the rules and how they interact.

1.you cant parry giant size opponents(robots,dragons etc) only dodge them.
2.Giant sized robots(specifically) can only parry giant sized opponents and cannot dodge melee strikes from human sized opponents.
3.Giant robots and vehicles have an AR of 18,non military vehicles have an AR of 14...any roll to strike under the AR does half damage.
4.when dodging(this does not apply to giant robots or vehicles)a successful dodge works as normal and a failed dodge reduces damage by half,auto dodges work as normal.

so has anyone tried house rules like this,do you think they work.if you havent tried them,do you think they would work?

Those will certainly increase the durability of vehicles and robots. Does he assign a similar thresh hold for power armor? What about chromium based armor (which in addition to laser resistance is also denser, hence why the glitterboy has more mdc than most robots or tanks)?

The dodging rule seems like it is designed to reward you for giving up an opportunity to attack,

I think it was an attempt to adress the fact the MDC on vehicles and robots does not seam to scale with size very well.

[iteration27]

yeah he was fed up with large robots and vehicles being easily dismantled by large groups of inferior combatants,so he thought the AR would help with that.its more effective vs ranged attacks,im told.i dont know why PA(including the Glitter B)does not benefit,but i'd assume its because they can take advantage of the modified dodge rule,where as Giant robots and vehicles cannot.

yes the dodge rule is so even if you fail your dodge roll,you havent wasted your next attack for nothing.

nothing wrong with using a crossbow,its just a matter of personal preference/style.i like bows.I AM using a steel tree bow,which does MD or increased SD depending on the ammo used.Gm says the listed MD damage is for using steel tree or similar arrows and the damage listed under the arrows is added to the bows damage,so my regular steel tree arrows(and iron wood arrows) do 3d6+2 MD(6d6+4 for a double shot).its listed as having reduced accuracy due to the weight,but im told i can ignore the accuracy reduction with my PA's robotic strength,even though it doesnt say that in the description.I also have a whole bunch of explosive arrows and other specialty arrows like smoke etc and have 2 over sized quivers to use on the power armours back and a vibro daisho,aswell as a number of vibro shuriken and exploding knives.

i didnt want to be too demanding with my equipment as hes given me all this MDC gear and a PA(still to choose,but might be a night reaper or silver sabre) without having to work to acquire it.Although hes letting my girlfriend play a goblin rogue scholar with a giant,2-handed rune hammer which can turn her invisible,make her fly,turn her into an MDC being,summon MDC plate armour and shoot RIFTs at people,who runs around scream"I am the Rift hammer,saviour of the Megaverse"...so maybe asking for a more serious equipment upgrade isnt unreasonable lol

[Blue_Lion]

yeah he was fed up with large robots and vehicles being easily dismantled by large groups of inferior combatants,so he thought the AR would help with that.its more effective vs ranged attacks,im told.i dont know why PA(including the Glitter B)does not benefit,but i'd assume its because they can take advantage of the modified dodge rule,where as Giant robots and vehicles cannot.

yes the dodge rule is so even if you fail your dodge roll,you havent wasted your next attack for nothing.

nothing wrong with using a crossbow,its just a matter of personal preference/style.i like bows.I AM using a steel tree bow,which does MD or increased SD depending on the ammo used.Gm says the listed MD damage is for using steel tree or similar arrows and the damage listed under the arrows is added to the bows damage,so my regular steel tree arrows(and iron wood arrows) do 3d6+2 MD(6d6+4 for a double shot).its listed as having reduced accuracy due to the weight,but im told i can ignore the accuracy reduction with my PA's robotic strength,even though it doesnt say that in the description.I also have a whole bunch of explosive arrows and other specialty arrows like smoke etc and have 2 over sized quivers to use on the power armours back and a vibro daisho,aswell as a number of vibro shuriken and exploding knives.

i didnt want to be too demanding with my equipment as hes given me all this MDC gear and a PA(still to choose,but might be a night reaper or silver sabre) without having to work to acquire it.Although hes letting my girlfriend play a goblin rogue scholar with a giant,2-handed rune hammer which can turn her invisible,make her fly,turn her into an MDC being,summon MDC plate armour and shoot RIFTs at people,who runs around scream"I am the Rift hammer,saviour of the Megaverse"...so maybe asking for a more serious equipment upgrade isnt unreasonable lol

My experience is PA and borgs tend not to get burned down as focus fire as much as giant robots and tanks.

[iteration27]

thats understandable,seemingly more powerful and much bigger and more obvious targets.But giant war machines just arent as scary as they should be.ok,they can out range most opponents and have alot of attacks if multi crewed.but in comparison to power armour,i dont think they're that much harder.plus they cant really hide effectively and are more prone to ambush.as part of a larger force,using infantry screens,spotters and PA escorts,yeah,they can make a real difference.But as individual units,they are far too vulnerable.Ok,they're very very expensive,so most of the time they will actaully be part of a larger force that can actually afford them and their upkeep.but still,for a player character its somewhat of a liability in terms of vulnerability and cost.you can have a small squad of power armour for the cost of a robot,highly mobile,able to use terrain advantage and ambush more effectively,in some cases they have comparable range and the overall MDC of a PA squad is greater than a robot.Ok,they dont generally have access to longer range missiles,but a robot has difficulty targeting at those ranges unless firing at airbourne targets using radar.Ground target engagement will happen at much shorter ranges and an incoming giant warmachine is easy to spot and thus prepare for.
im sure exceptions to these generalizations could be cited of course,as with anything...but i wouldnt waste my time with a giant robot usually.so i can see how at least having the extra protection of an AR would redress the problems of Giant robots to some small degree.

Im sure there are plenty of people who would disagree with me though,about all of the above lol

[Blue_Lion]

I use a few diffrent house rules in robot and vehicle construction that give them a bit better survivalbilty.
Anti missile systems-adapted from real world ones are standard on combat robots and tanks.(harder for mini missile burst kills on them.)
Reworked weapon system. I do not have laser cannons doing the same damage as hand held lasers.
(some times I use a rule to increase MD by a factor of military vehicles sand robots that has mixed resaults.)

[iteration27]

yeah i did ask why he didnt increase MDC of vehicles.assigning the blanket AR's was just less work...oh i did forget that vehicle and Robot weapons ignore the vehicle/robot AR's.So PA/infantry weapons often do less damage to bigger targets,but vehicle/robot weapons always do full damage to their target.i guess this was also done for ease of implementation.argh i keep forgetting stuff,also any Heavy weapon described as being specifically anti-armour(so not all heavy weapons),including AP missiles and the boom gun,ignore the AP rule.i think thats all of it.

oh yeah,another thing i forgot was something about Big robots,vehicles being able to make area effect melee attacks against groups of people,but he didnt go into details,he just mentioned it.

[RockJock]

IPA-40 Dai-Katana Bugei is perfect. Stealthy, fast, swords, minimal ranged weapons.

[iteration27]

its a good suit,but its not north american

[Sir Dellis]

while hard to imagine stuff from Japan making it to north america in the Rifts setting, it is possible, improbable definitely, but still possible

[iteration27]

of course.But i did mention earlier in the thread that the GM was limiting me to N american gear only,with the exception of my vibe daisho and shuriken,which he has being available in the states(american made)