Trade between Rifts Earth and Phase World

[taalismn]

Game balance. It would threaten the Coalition's character shields. Though, in reality, I figure if the CS learned Lazlo was importing FTL drives, military grade forcefields, and the sort of tech that would leave them in the dust, they'd arrange for a nuclear 'accident' in Lazlo and an invasion that would make Tolkeen look like a police raid on the local drug den.

[eliakon]

The biggest reasons are that
1) Lazlo isn't insanely wealthy. They probably don't have trade goods worth billions of credits just sitting around to buy ships with
2) Lazlo isn't a military power and is uninterested in becoming one
3) That Lazlo IS aware of who runs Atlantis and is aware that space ships would attract their notice
4) That no one on Rifts Earth has much, if anything, to do with space due to (among other things the debris field, and orbital weapons)
5) That there are Arkhon battleships up there...

Oh yeah... and because it would totally change the entire setting into something almost unrecognizable from the published material.
Now that isn't going to be a problem for the individual GM who can make such sweeping changes...
...but it is not something that the publisher is inclined to do (that sort of thing would be the sort of thing that you use to wipe away the old setting to clear room for a new edition...)

[Jorick]

Maybe experiencing trade with the Naruni also gives them pause. Going into debt with some far greater power for war is probably a bad idea.

I think it makes a lot of sense for Lazlo too look for help , of some kind, in other dimensions, to help with the Xiticix threat. That could be a fun plot hook for earth mercenaries to go dimension hopping.

[taalismn]

The way to do it would be to gradually introduce new and subtle common domain techs that can be assimilated and replicated by the local tech-base and businesses...things like more efficient powerplants, for instance, or improved medical technology. Quality of life stuff that nevertheless is initially restricted to a few places(how many home x-ray machines or MRIs, let alone precision radiation therapy machines do you know of?) while the scholars can gauge the effects.
A Lazlo City d-bee guard sporting a g-rifle can be excused as personal property being used on-duty. The whole city militia armed with g-rifles is going to attract attention. A special 'black ops' unit of the Lazlo security apparatus armed with g-rifles might be more plausible,

[Blue_Lion]

The biggest reasons are that
1) Lazlo isn't insanely wealthy. They probably don't have trade goods worth billions of credits just sitting around to buy ships with
2) Lazlo isn't a military power and is uninterested in becoming one
3) That Lazlo IS aware of who runs Atlantis and is aware that space ships would attract their notice
4) That no one on Rifts Earth has much, if anything, to do with space due to (among other things the debris field, and orbital weapons)
5) That there are Arkhon battleships up there...

Oh yeah... and because it would totally change the entire setting into something almost unrecognizable from the published material.
Now that isn't going to be a problem for the individual GM who can make such sweeping changes...
...but it is not something that the publisher is inclined to do (that sort of thing would be the sort of thing that you use to wipe away the old setting to clear room for a new edition...)

Tolkeen had a portals to phase world, traded goods to nurni for resources though them.
Was a military power.
They did not buy space ships because most of rifts believe it is impossible to get past the debris field.
So investing in space ships is typically seen as a wast of resources. More so given the lack of trained people to man them.

Also there may be trade restrictions in place. If I recall right even Nurni did not sale there phase world e-clips on rifts earth.

[SereneTsunami]

Lazlo's main impediment to exploiting the resources of the Megaverse is it's leadership. Plato has the ambition of a housecat in a sunny window.

Other, better connected cities on Earth do not take advantage of the Megaverse either, IMO. It's prolly due to the authors not knowing how to control the chaos once those cows are out of the barn.

[taalismn]

Only the Splugorth seem to have the gorm to exploit Rifts Earth's vast potential as a trade nexus.
Takamatsu has only dipped its toe into the potential pool, but they're exploiting an uninhabited alternate universe for resources.

[Mlp7029]

As soon as the first space cruiser comes through either the CS or the Splugorth would destroy it. Of course someone in Lazlo would be importing HI laser weapons, etc if they find a way past the awful exchange rate of 10 Rifts credits for one Phase World credit. My character has a string of shops in various Rifts Earth cities called Tanks and Talismans (T&T). T&T carries Phase World and UWW imports plus Talismans, scrolls, amulets, etc. Prices are entirely dependent on what currency you pay with. Universal Credits ten times book, precious metals Phase World exchange rates (my GM established precious metals costing half Rifts Earth prices on Phase World). His best sellers are healing scrolls direct to hospitals both on Rifts Earth and Phase World.

[eliakon]

The Naruni aren't the only game in town. Magefire is there too. Ultimately their products are inferior to the basic CCW weaponry. (Compare the Silver Hawks to Naruni PA or the HI-Laser rifles and the GR rifles to the Naruni Plasma weaponry.).

There are a number of dimensional traders. Both small and medium scale.
They just are kept down to a level where they wont change the setting (see the next section)

What I just don't understand is why dimensional travelling cities like Lazlo have not tried to initiate trade ties with a place like Center (which would have no trade restrictions due to it's nature).

Center alone could supply the city's trade needs.

In a setting where the premise is dimensional travel and it's effects on Earth, the lack of interdimentional trade at least by Rift friendly powers makes 0 sense, considering plenty of crossover (like the Minion War) has occurred at this point.

The reason is that because if there is widespread easy trade with other dimensions that it just becomes a Phase World game with some interesting scenery.
The setting has certain things (Call them plot points, tropes, what ever they exist) that it is predicated on.
These include stuff like rarity of supplies (other than MD weapons it seems. Though the fluff is that those are rare too...); Difficulty in traveling; that the bad guys are the most powerful people on the block and that the good guys are all timid and/or stupid leaving the PCs as the only hope; and of course that you can have 'zones' where this stuff happens here and it has no effect elsewhere.
Full widespread easy dimensional travel and trade make all of these go away and would basically totally change the setting.
That is why

In response to the above post about the ships being shot down as soon as they're rifted in, perhaps, but not sub capitals like frigates and whatnot. Those would be harder to spot.

Not really. A ship several hundred feet long is going to be hard to hide.

Don't forget that things like gold and silver appear to hold their value cross dimension (reference value of a ton of gold in phase world vs Rifts earth).

Which is nice... but you still need billions of credits of gold.

And most of all. Silverhawks.

Yes, the most overpowered power armor in the game is going to obviously change the balance of power if they are brought in.

EDIT: I do feel compelled to acknowledge that the splugorth are a notable exception to this.

[eliakon]

It is not about game balance.
It is about that allowing these things will completely change the game from what it is into something totally different
That may not be a bad thing, it may even be a thing that your particular group likes... but it is not what the publishers want which is why they are publishing the game as it is and not the other way.
The game right now, for good or for ill, is about the struggles of the people that live on Earth and their trials and tribulations.
It is not just another world in Phase World where there are some colorful locals and you stop by in your space ship for a few days.
It could be if you want it to... but it is not that right now.
Adding in unlimited dimensional trade would basically turn it into "Center light" which is not the current direction that the game is canonically headed.

Similarly the Sliverhawks are not about "Game balance"
It is about "campaign balance"
People confuse the two for each other.
In Rifts the theory is that PCs are not created equal. That is fine.
But there is still a theory that (more or less) certain factions have certain levels of ability. Thus the CS has a quantifiable level of power, the NGR has a level of power, so on and so forth.
Taking the most powerful suit of armor in the entire megaverse and making it suddenly the common infantry suit of Rifts Earth is going to totally change the way the game works.
The Silverhawk would make virtually every other suit of armor and most robot vehicles obsolete for instance. Its weapon with its ludicrous range would make almost every other unit on the planet obsolete.
The ripple on changes would be similar to the changes that fully implementing Sovietski will cause...only more so.


As for the financials
A fleet of ships is going to cost more than you can just 'mine'
Even at the price of gold there simply is not enough gold lying around to come up with a few trillion credits...which is what a fleet of 100 or so ships is going to cost.
This is where grasping large numbers becomes a problem.
With ships costing hundreds of millions, or billions or more a pop it gets hard to visualize what that looks like.
Think about it this way... on our earth right now there are roughly 10 billion ounces of gold floating around.
Rifts pegs gold at 1000cr per oz so that is 10,000,000,000,000cr on earth and I believe half that in Phase World?
That means that if you collected every scrap of gold ever mined in the history of mankind, and sold it all on Phaseworld you would not be able to pay for one of the larger ships.

Yes there is a lot of precious metals and gems and magic lying around...
...but the cost of ships and their support element are truely staggering. They litterally use the economies of entire worlds to build these things. Entire solar systems are dedicated to this. Whole planets are canonically strip mined for materials in Phase World... the stuff that Lazlo has to offer to that economy are negligable at best.

[eliakon]

It seems that you're making a normative argument. What you "think it should be." I'll not deny that perhaps the folks at Palladium feel the same way.

Yes the first argument is that "This is the game we are playing and not another game" yes.
In general I feel that when a position is predicated on the assumption that the authors are all wrong and that the source material is all wrong that it is probably not the strongest of positions.
But hey, lets look at the rest mmmm?

But in terms of realism, I'm pointing out a basic fact: Dimensional travel embraced by a country, inevitably will lead to dimensional trade. On a large scale.

Hold on there cowboy.
First off dimensional trade is NOT easy.
The only 100% safe way to travel dimensions is via 2 linked pyramids (or via plot device).
Which means that you have to open yourself up to the very real risk of a Splugorth invasion via THEIR pyramids.
The other means?
You can open rifts. with a % chance of success, failure can cause disaster (hello Mechanoids).
Dimensional teleport has a fairly good chance of you going someplace bad (some of the possibilities are outright fatal)... I would say that if oh.... even .05% of all airplane flights on earth resulted in crashes killing everyone on board they would NOT be considered a primary way to travel.
Those right there are some good reasons to have dimensional trade be limited.

Especially when some of the destinations on the other end are like Center. Which begs for dimensional trade. There has literally been nothing in the books that suggest or even explain why this is not so for Lazlo. Why it cannot simply (ships aside) buy a whole bunch of easily bought Hi-Lasers, GR guns, and Silverhawks. (or hell, Warlock Marine armor if you wanna keep the TW theme) The Coalition's prejudice against dimensional travel is not enough. They cannot control what countries like Lazlo will do in terms of dimensional trade. Indeed. They cannot even affect dimensional trade once one steps through the Rifts (that whole thing about killing anyone that steps out of a Rift, including their own people)

Because it is not about the CS?
The #1 first reason is that Lazlo is not going to do this because Lazlo is about as militaristic as Switzerland.

Either the writers need to come out with some really good explanation why places like Lazlo have NOT exploited dimensional travel, dimensional trade, and dimensional mining.

Or we have to acknowledge that Lazlo is ALOT more powerful than we give it credit for. The implications behind their entire society are staggering.

Because the authors HAVE come out with really good explanations.
The simple fact is that simply wanting to have trade does not make it happen.
You need a safe way to perform said trade
AND
You need something to trade that your partner wants.
Lazlo (and any other of the minor powers on Rifts Earth) simply dont have those.
A tiny population isnt going to be able to support massive dimensional mining operations, even assuming that you had some way of doing it (which there isn't in canon)

Dimensional trade is hard.
Literally the only known way to make it work sucessfully are to either use Pyramids, or McGuffins.
Since Pyramids are VERY dangerous (hello Splugorth) and McGuffins only exist when they are created for plot purposes...
Also, remember there is already some very major league dimensional operations out there. The Naruni and the Splugorth for example are not going to just sit by and let some two bit city muscle in on their profits.
And unlike our earth there are no laws out there, no police to protect you.
You start throwing around billions of credits dimensionally on a regular basis and suddenly you wake up one day learning how to say "yes master" in Splugorthian... or worse.
So no easy dimensional trade just isn't a thing.
Now sure... a GM can tweak the rules here and there to make it easier sure. But once you start changing the rules to make it work... well then it isn't an issue with how the setting works as written now is it?

[eliakon]

As for the Sovietski. This is off topic but I'd like to point out that developing new weapons and armor that completely blows the competition out of the water is the very basis of weapons development. Thats why we have arms races to begin with. I don't see problems with the crazy armor piercing weaponry developed by the Sovietski, who have access to Russian Golden Age technology. I see it as a continuation of the arms race. Campaign balance? pfft. Entire labs and research teams all over Rifts Earth (also Real Earth) are working round the clock to disrupt that very balance. Billions of credits are being poured into exactly that objective. I see no problem that one high tech power or another has made a breakthrough somewhere.

Lets just say that I disagree that a fluff line of text in one book should invalidate every suit of armor, power armor, vehichle, tank, robot and space ship ever printed.

I also think that the chances of the Sovietski discovering a technique that no one else in the past ~100,000 years of the current dimensional era have ever considered, including such technological wariors as The Mechanoids, The Kitanni, The Khreghor, Naruni....or well anyone is so remote as to be laughable.

I ALSO would like to point out that as written the AP in the book applies to AP weapons. All of them.

Now you may be free to disagree. I am not going to debate something as nebulous and personal as opinions.
But I am simply explaining why I think it was absurdly bad writting.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

What's the point in getting a case of the ass about it?

Here's the thing: once you put pencil to paper, it's your game. YOUR game. If you want to give Lazlo regular trade with the most munchkinylicious books yet printed, feel free to do so. If you want to ignore the repurcussions of that, go right ahead. If you want the CS to trade in their black, skeletal body armor for fuzzy pink bunny suits, have fun.

You run your game YOUR way.

If I were to start running a game tomorrow, among other changes the population of published settlements would be reduced, the CS would be more realistic (no more illiterate population, for example, though they'd still ban certain texts), the economics would make sense, railguns wouldn't be basically useless with a couple exceptions, the politics would be more believable, and the entire mechanics of the game would go right in the bin.

So if you want Lazlo cruising around in CCW destroyers or Zentraedi battleships, go for it.

Maybe I don't hang out in the right places, cuz as much as I love Fallout I have no idea what you're talking about there.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

Hang around the right places anywhere. For any game or hobby. You'll find it. (Spoiler alert, this is one of the right places for this one game/hobby. One out of hundreds of thousands of games. Each one of those hundreds of thousands has this going on.)

Yep. Ignore the greater point for the lesser. I don't care about Lazlo flying in phase world ships.

And I got my question answered. People don't want it. Interdimensional trade. Because it'll break the setting. Logic aside.

I guess it's better if you go back to lurking then, if you're going to get tender butt because most people seem to prefer leaving PW in PW. Or you could use the "Ignore User" feature. There are a few people on here that will have you thanking the programmers for that particular feature.

I get what you're saying but I think you haven't considered CS and Atlantis spies and the consequences for Lazlo as soon as that first crate of PW weaponry gets opened up. As well as what they're going to trade for said weapons.

[eliakon]

My last reply on this before I set the OP on ignore.
1) why it hasn't happened has been addressed as the game rules do not allow it. You can change your personal game to allow it... but RAW there is no way to have safe dimensional trade. Thus there is no easy dimensional trade... because the rules forbid it. If you have to rewrite the rules to allow for the trade... then it is not a glaring feature that was overlooked.

2) There seems to be a disconnect from the OP. Just because something COULD happen in someone's personal game does not mean that it SHOULD happen in every game.
How the setting is written does not, nor can be, changed to accommodate every persons personal opinion. Yes a GM can (and should) change the setting to fit their tastes... but that does not make the RAW "wrong" for not being to their tastes to start with.
And frankly... if people get upset that people do not agree that their personal vision of the game is superior to the written material and that everyone else should embrace their changes to the game because they and they alone have found the One True Way To Play The Right Way... then a fan community is probably not the best place to go trying to proselytize for converts.


3) Now if you want to ask a DIFFERENT question like... how could I set up interdimensional trade in my game? Great. Or if you want to ask "What are some plausible reasons that I can blame the lack of X on Y in my game?" wonderful. But coming in with an attack on the setting as written and saying that the setting itself is wrong and that you are the only person to see the problem and then wondering why everyone isn't suddenly agreeing with you?... well you are probably not going to get a positive response.
If you want to call it a "normative" argument that people playing a game assume that the game material is correct and that "some guy they have never heard of" is not actually MORE correct than the author... by all means do so.

[taalismn]

If you wanna overthrow the published material with the advent of interdimensional trade, by all means, go ahead...I'd be interested in how you metagame the consequences.
If you establish reliable interdimensional trade:
The CS and Atlantis might immediately nuke whoever starts overtly trading for better toys outdimension.....or the CS might be badly bloodied when they discover that mousey little nation they thought they could pinch off in the bud has been holding out on what they've already got, such as bleeding edge defense systems that leave the CS in the dust*. The Splugorth are less likely to be intimidated, and that could set up for a longer term Cold War or proxy war campaign as the Splug feel out how they're going to trounce the new upstart(look at the Splugorth-Naruni lovefest for ideas when it comes to trading on each others' declared turf). Other parties trading? If the CS or the Splugorth don't come after you, maybe Naruni comes after you, to steal you as a client(since you're clearly trading out-d), steal your new trade allies as clients, or knock out the competition(especially if you're re-selling technology that threatens Naruni's market-share).

*I admit I do this in my own PS/GNE setting, with the Greater New England out-dimension trading network sending enough resources and technology back to their homeland to shore up their defenses and keep up a protracted detente as opposed to a live-fire roll-over. Sorta like how the Dutch managed to maintain a large overseas trade empire without getting blockaded or outright crushed by the naval power that was Great Britain or their neighbors in France.

[dreicunan]

Last try. Yes the spies from the CS could legit prevent this from happening.

I wanna hear how they did it then. Get it? There's been nothing about this. Why this is not so. There are huge gaps in the setting that need filled in. Lazlo world books should be on II or revised by now. Dimensional trade should've been addressed by more than just Atlantis.

There are gaps. And interdimensional trade is a glaring one.

The answer to this is pretty simple. Crisis of treachery + former Palladium writera dying or leaving to do other things + Kevin S's approach to publishing work by other author's (here he comes to save the day / Mighty Kev is on his way!) + general mismanagement issues + no one has submitted a work that truky inspires Kev to like it enough to mess with it and publish it = why we haven't had Lazlo 1 yet.

Dimensional trade, however, has been addressed by more than Atlantis. Wormwood gets into it as well. As Eliakon has pointed out, the rules for the creation of Rifts get into it as well. There is an element of danger there which the leaders of Lazlo may not be willing to countenance on a large scale.

The Naruni situation is also illustrative. If Naruni enterprises is having having trouble establishing trade on Earth, how much more trouble is Lazlo or anyone else going to have?

Another reason would be that Lazlo is supposedly led by wise and ethical people. Interdimensional trade on a small scale is probabky occuring on a small scale with regularity, but Lazlo isn't going to enslave fairies for export the way the Splurgoth would. It is a lot harder to exploit a world for profit (be it Rifts Earth or another dimension) when you don't just steal stuff to sell or exploit resources without consequences. When it comes to things that they could do ethically, Lazlo hasn't been shown to have anything special to offer on an interdimensional level.

Now, what is to actually stop them from rifting in dreadnoughts? Nothing per se. Just a bunch of small factors that make it unlikely. Remember that Lazlo's advice to Tolkeen was to pack up and move rather than fight. Lazlo would be more likely to invest in making the whole city interdimensionally mobile before assembling a war fleet.

[guardiandashi]

I'm going to toss my 2cents in with a somewhat less argumentative take on it.

lets assume for the sake of argument that Lazlo has a reasonable way to make their rifts "safer" to use, such as having shifters doing the actual rift openings, and something like a MALF from stargate where they send something disposable through to peek around and make sure its not instant death (aka you opened a rift into the heart of a star, or on the event horizon of a black hole or something similarly stupid. )

then once they get a portal opened to center in phase world they find a way shifters? attuned stone/crystal(s) or something to consistently get back and forth between rifts and center.

great they can now have regularish trade with center, the next question is do they have some resource that the merchants on center actually want? They (Lazlo) are very unlikely to go in for slave trading like the Splorgoth, do they have access to a regular supply of valuable resources? gems, precious metals etc. maybe magic items or techno-wizard stuff. The problem they would run into is center is such a dimensional crossroads trading hub that its HARD to find something truly unique that Lazlo could provide in enough volume to actually get on the upper side of a trade deal.

with that said the "smart" thing for them to do (imo) is to invest in products that increase their defense capacity against their perceived enemies, such as buying a selection of small arms, on the down low, and possibly cosmetically tweaking them so its not blatantly obvious they are off dimensionally sourced. buying up high grade armor to incorporate into their own "Lazlo" brand gear may also make sense, kind of like buying up a lot of nuroni shield sets (hopefully at a better price than the local earth rep can (will) provide) picking up something that they feel is a good investment like a trans atmospheric capable starship (if it even exists) or some heavy or assault shuttles, to enable them to better relocate if someone (the coalition) decides to try to stomp them, along with a few attack systems to defend/ hold off the attackers giving them more time to move/evacuate if things go seriously bad.

the problem you are also likely to get is I'm not sure that Lazlo could get everyone on the same page, so you have shifter 147 who can open consistent center portals who is all about body armor, and some handguns, shifter 323 is all about starships but can't actually open a portal big enough to get them through... etc.

[ShadowLogan]

So, what very little I've seen of Lazlo implies that they have attained a mastery of dimensional portals far beyond many other comparable kingdoms of magic. Their city is apparently powered by a sustained rift. This would imply that there are many more dimensional travelers among their populace. This would mean settings like Phase World would likely be known to people in leadership positions there.

So my question is: Whats to stop a power like Lazlo from opening up a portal to Phase World, travelling to the shipyards there, and having a whole bunch of Phase World tech (either CCW or UWW) ships constructed there, then rifting the ships back to Rifts Earth to give them an armada with a tech base FAR in advance of Coalition technology?

1. Cost and the exhange Rate. Rifts Earth and Phaseworld do not have a 1:1 exchange rate, and IIRC Rifts Earth Credits are worth less than a Phaseworld Credit.

1a. Budget. Where is Lazlo (or other dimensional power) going to get this money to pay for starships? They do not have unlimited funds, they can't just buy what ever they want. So just what is their annual budget for all govt. activities?

2. Acquiring Star Ships would be a huge waste of resources since a good portion of their capabilities would go under utilized. It might be better to look for raw materials (TW devices require gems) or more practical items.

3. Lazlo is a peaceful City-State, with the smaller New Lazlo being more militant. So Lalzo is unlikely to engage in "gunboat" diplomacy like the CS it just is not in their character.

4. If other power blocks who aren't dimensional traveling get wind of said actions, how will it be viewed? The CS will definitely use it for their own ends, and might use it as justification to attack before the ships arrive. I doubt Atlantis will care much unless the power block threatens them (or is already engaged in hostilities with them).

5. Per WB2 there is some sort of policy that seeks to maintain a status quo on Rifts Earth, and Phase World might be subject to such an agreement preventing items from being traded through them. Phaseworld itself might limit what can actually be transported or use them for transport, though once on PW you could travel and the trade partner could use more conventional means to deliver than portals at Center.

6. Who says they don't engage in interdimensional trade for stuff they see as being actually more useful?

7. There are several places for interdimensional travel and trade: Atlantis, New Babylon (SA2), Megavesal Legion (SA2), a state in Japan (forget the name off hand), Manoa (sp?, in SA1). Probably several more at least that I'm not thinking about.

[DhAkael]

Putting my own two decicreds worth into the ring...
In my 20+ year long meta campiagn, diplomatic relations between Lazlo & smaller polities / independent nations within the Tri-Gal have occoured, and yes... Space HAS opened up (through a long drawn out process). However, the vessels are SMALL (the largest about the size of a Triax Supersonic Cargo plane), transit topside is HIGHLY restricted and time-sensitive and due to 'reasons' (treaties) no Orbital-Bovine-Bombardment will happen on the Prosseks anual spring BBQ.

As for superior technology / weapons? Only what's been published in the Naruni Wave 2 book, a few small arms (given to the PC's and a few NPC elite strike groups) but anti-matter warheads are a BIG no no even among the most hawkish of the Lazlo Defense Council. In the main, personal force fields, a few phase SWORDS or beamers, and the occasional G-Rail rifle or SMG.

The greatest trade between Lazlo and the greater megaverse at large? Knowledge and personelle. Plus as has been mentioned earlier; medical technology, more efficient construction gear & materials manufacturing and access to raw materials: re; asteroid mining; which has resulted in a lucrative deal between the Lazlo militia and NG... where Ishpemming is trying VERY hard to find out how Lazlo keeps finding all these motherloads of meteroic minerals all the time.

TECHNICALLy I could break canon completely and have The CS wiped off the map via ultra-tech and super-ability "allies" but that goes against the credo of Lazlo and aside from TRYING to wrest control of the multiple Rifts for their own purposes, why would any Tri-Gal polity of a scrupulous nature even think of mass genocide across dimensional borders?

A little extra "insurance" and mutual support makes much more sense.

[Khanibal]

Lazlo is a government, and while they are probably socialist enough to control utilities, health care, and education, they are probably also smart enough to not engage in tax-base-crushing government retail.

Lazlo is a non-expansionist, peaceful community. That limits their commitment to accumulating weapons. In any case, extending one's supply chain into other dimensions is probably not a great idea. Buying locally makes a lot more sense to a nation.

Small personal purchases are probably done with individual import/export businesses all the time. Paul's Premier Power Armor on 11th St. and Adams Ave. can arrange a Silverhawk for you if you really want one. Keep in mind, the currency exchange rate between Earth and Phase World is 10 Earth Universal Credits to 1 PW Universal Credits and that's not even taking into account the exorbitant shipping fees and the Paul's commission. Also, if you've ever owned a car, you know that it requires regular maintenance. Imagine if you took that car into battle 2-4 times a month. Now remember that every replacement part on the Silverhawk is manufactured in another dimension, more inflated prices, fees, commission.

By the way, Mozee's tea house has a fantastic array of blends taken from plants out of the Haizark dimension. It's a freshwater ocean world, dotted with small islands.

[Suicycho]

My God, it horrifies me to actually say this but...I agree 100% with every single word Eliakon has posted in this thread.

[Khanibal]

My God, it horrifies me to actually say this but...I agree 100% with every single word Eliakon has posted in this thread.

Obviously you are unfamiliar with forum rule 33.18 subsection c, which forbids agreement "..of any kind."
Consider yourself reported.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

There are gaps. And interdimensional trade is a glaring one.

Think about the game we're discussing, and then read that sentence again.

'Gaps' and 'inconsistencies' is a colossal understatement. PB basically throws logic in the bin when they get to writing.

I'm not saying I disagree with you. Far from it. But I've learned to fill-in and re-write wholesale when it comes to PB products.

[taalismn]

[

The Naruni situation is also illustrative. If Naruni enterprises is having having trouble establishing trade on Earth, how much more trouble is Lazlo or anyone else going to have?.

The Splugorth and Naruni have been conducting interdimensional trade for MILLENIA, and whether by technological or magical means, they've had the time to refine and standardize their procedures. They're also BIG concerns with the resources and manpower to pull off expansionist marketing campaigns and trade missions.
Until fairly recently, Rifts Earth efforts have been small, on the level of individuals feeling their way along and later larger guilds and groups like Lazlo, but even then, they may be heavily dependent on infusions of knowledge from folks like the Atlanteans, plus big dollops of plain dumb luck.
Kinda like a tribe of backwater Amazon tribesmen rowing a log canoe into New York City or Singapore on a trade expedition.

[RockJock]

We have always allowed low level trade. By low level I mean PCs, or NPCs, even small groups like merc units armed with common 3Gs level tech is not uncommon. Groups using Naruni weapons like Robot Control fall into this category. There are even a few larger organizations that have 3Gs level tech, especially in South America(Largato, Megaversal Legion, New Babylon, Cibola, Arkron, and Manoa for a few) from the Naruni, Spulgoth, or others.

Trade in TW weapons/equipment has been a reoccurring source of 3Gs cash.

In general we don't allow things like a Silver Hawk because they are very expensive, and frontline military gear, so not that common. It isn't so easy to go by an Apache in today's world.....The colonial laser rifle that self charges is a great fit, same with 3Gs EBA, or even a HI laser weapon.

A few years back I had a group of players who looked at the Black Market rifle shells and came up with the idea of having a 3Gs energy rifle built into an old west, or standard NG weapon shell.


If your merc unit is going to be killed for having a Kittani Plasma Ax or a C-12 rifle, why not earn the death mark with a better piece of kit in your hands?

[Blue_Lion]

Just because companies in a nation sale something does not mean every one or nation that trades with them is allowed to buy it.

We trade with russia and china but they can not buy a top of the line naval radar from a US company that sales them to the US government.

I do not see Lazlo as having access to the disposable defense funds to buy star ships that they lack trained personal to man. Lazlo defense forces as I understand it favor TW for large scale city defenses.

[Incriptus]

So my question is: Whats to stop a power like Lazlo from opening up a portal to Phase World

We would likely start with the money issue.
Credits are 1:10

money to buy a couple hundred thousand of those or so (the rifles)

So they could buy a HI-50 laser rifle and do 3d6+6 for 260,000 credits or for the same money get 16 NG-L5 Northern Gun Laser Rifles and do 3d6 damage.

But we don't mind, we've got the cash

and Lazlo just spends 25 trillion on weapons. Then you they need to buy E-Clips. . . Or they can hope to modify each of the hundred of thousand guns that utilize technology that is well beyond your understanding. I'm sure nothing would go wrong there.

Then we are looking at 100's of millions for fighters, Billions for Transports, Billions for Frigates [which are never sold], 100's of millions to billions for Merchant Ships ...

----

Lets say Lazlo trades an Artifact level item for legit starships.

They don't have a pilot. They don't have anyone with space craft mechanics. Sure magic and psionics can compensate a bit, but nothing beats the real skill. You are betting on tools you've never used before and you're not really sure how they work and you can't fix them if there is a problem

So my question is: Whats to stop a power like Lazlo from opening up a portal to Phase World

The answer is nothing really, it's just not economical to rely on the center for your military/defensive aspirations.

Perhaps the better question is why don't they open up that portal and just leave Rifts Earth behind?

[taalismn]

If your merc unit is going to be killed for having a Kittani Plasma Ax or a C-12 rifle, why not earn the death mark with a better piece of kit in your hands?

There's an old Chinese story of a bunch of peasants in the boondocks sitting around watching the rain pouring down around them.
One of them speaks up: "Hey, anybody know what the penalty for revolt is?"
"Yeah, it's death."
"And what's the penalty for rallying late to an imperial work levy order?"
"It's death."
"...guess what, guys, we're -late-."

So yeah, if you're going to get smoked, do it in the premium flameproof underwear.

[Suicycho]

My God, it horrifies me to actually say this but...I agree 100% with every single word Eliakon has posted in this thread.

Obviously you are unfamiliar with forum rule 33.18 subsection c, which forbids agreement "..of any kind."
Consider yourself reported.

[Armorlord]

There is certainly trade between Rifts Earth and Phase World, there is nothing to indicate that there is not. Besides Glitterboys in the 3G, Naurni operations, and known connecting portals, the simple fact that there is an established rate of exchange goes to show there is regular enough contact at Center.

As for what is to stop Lazlo from going buck wild with that, that is fairly straightforward: Themselves and economics.
By all accounts, Lazlo is very pacifist overall. It takes major threats to the safety of the world to get them to stir to support aggressive actions (Mechanoids, Xiticx, Four Horsemen, Minion War).
Dimensional trade aside, there is no indication that Lazlo budgets for major military purchases, locally sourced or otherwise.

Economically, Incriptus covered that topic very well already. Imports are going to cost much more and get less compared to locally sourced for the credits.

As for anything larger than a fighter, there might also be delivery issues, as we do not know of a means to deliver capital ships interdimensionally. I don't count this as a primary reason, however, as not knowing doesn't mean there isn't, it likely just means it would just cost more to deliver by some unusual means, and/or that delivery could go wrong.

[Jorick]

I might just be preaching to the choir now, if the OP got too frustrated to stick around, but some of his comments bugged me.

Ive been on these forums for a while too, and I'm pretty sure a lot of the people responding here find plenty of plot holes all the time, and they're not just insisting on the righteousness of the plot armor to defy logic.

I'll admit that I am not one of them. Rules/system aside, I have not a single problem with the Rifts setting's logic. I think there are plenty of ambiguities, and the occasional overzealous description. But those ambiguities do not imply inconsistencies. They imply room for GMs to make stuff. For instance, when things are described in plural (lots of town in this area), that can mean any number of things. The populations don't bother me. The economy doesn't bother me. In my experience, where game systems are used to "make things simpler" for the players, the fluff takes care of any logical inconsistency. For instance: yes there are credits, and yes, everything in the books is marked with a universal credit value, but no they are explicitly not universal in the fluff.

Any ambiguity I have ever seen can be resolved without having to resort to breaking, or even ignoring, any of the other fluff. The solutions within the established setting as written can be unique to each table, and each table may push the storyline forward in such a way that as early as tomorrow, in that table's in-game timeline, the entire world as we know it is broken. But the simple fact that things could be about to happen in no way means that they should, or that they will. Indeed, while the variables in Rifts seem too chaotic at times, those variables also deny any certainty of events. The Minion War could just as easily have happened before the Coalition attacked the FoM, or before the Siege of Tolkein, or on top of Atlantis, or whatever. The Minion War as we know it could result in the Angel of Death reappearing. It's a strong possibility according to the book. It's not a matter of handwaving or ignoring any presented fact to say "it was taken care of." Do the players really want to know why it was taken care of? Then answer the question for them. In game.

This isn't a work of narrative fiction. It's a game setting. There needs to be room for people to play their own stories.

We don't know much about Lazlo, and thus it is a huge ambiguity. Central to the meta-plot of North America, it can be and do any number of things. We DO have lots of examples of interdimensional trade and its difficulties. We have an example of another magic kingdom using its resources to bolster its forces (the Demonix). We saw the failure there, and the fallout. We know the struggles of the Naruni, a non-magical trading operation (there's a "plot hole;" how did they start rifting to Earth without magic?--is it a hard question to answer? does needing to answer it, as a GM, make the fact that they're on Rifts Earth illogical?). Atlantis does lots of trading, as does Cibola, and the Demon Kingdom, and on and on.

Even if Atlantis, for instance, couldn't rift in huge starships, they could certainly rift in the materials needed to construct them. But they don't, and we know that is explicitly because it would cause an enormous amount of chaos that even the Splugorth don't want to deal with. That really doesn't take any imagination, or understanding the fine print of any possible "agreement." It could just be an unwritten and unspoken agreement, among logical thinkers, who realize that there is no way to securely hold this sieve of a dimensional nexus, and any force that could would rather not try bumping heads with others that could, if they have their small share of the infinite doorways to anywhere in the Megaverse. Access to potentially infinite resources vs fighting for one broken planet? Easy calculation.

Lazlo is primarily of Earth. What we know of its extra-dimensional inhabitants is that either they are now of Earth themselves (dbees), or they are powerful beings who have a personal interest in helping this small group of Earthlings survive this crazy environment (Plato). If we're bringing the 3Gs into this, I think its easier to imagine, even with all the ambiguity, that Lazlo is smaller and has less resources than an independent colony in the Thundercloud. Because it is a magic kingdom, if it were going to look for help from other dimensions, much like Tolkein, or the FoM, or any monster kingdom, it would look for magical solutions first. Even magic does not allow a very small country to suddenly change its entire lifestyle for the purposes of destroying a much greater power (the Coalition). But experience with magic, especially when one has the point of view of those in Lazlo, does teach that trying to gain power so quickly and for such reasons has great consequences.

If anyone's going to try to do what the OP thinks Lazlo should do, it's the FoM. And the FoM does do it. Lots of different cities in the FoM do it their own way. There's a horrendous AI in Kentucky. It has eaten planets with many times the Coalition for breakfast. Who needs spaceships when you have a gigantic horror worm? People who don't want to be breakfast, that's who. Buying a bunch of stuff from Naruni, or the Splugorth is only slightly less suicidal. Bringing in an extra-dimensional mercenary army is asking for a war, between them and whatever finds them to be a threat (the Splugroth?), that would make the Coalition and Lazlo afterthoughts.

But you can do it. If I recall correctly the Megaversal Legion does have offices in Merctown. Make some money, buy a few platoons. See what happens. Even the official meta-plot just dropped a demon war on the continent. You can ignore that and make your own chaos. Or add to the chaos. Whatever. Anything can and could happen at any time. But in EVERY CASE, that it has not yet happened is easily logically resolved given the information we have available.

[jtjr26]

I think space ships might be out of reach for most native Earth societies. However given the sheer volume of trade at Center, and Lazlo's ability to travel through inter-dimensional space, I think it would be possible to for Lazlo if they needed to, to easily pick up some 'retrograde military surplus' on the cheap. Even in just terms of aerospace they should be able to find atmospheric fighters of a higher quality that anything the CS can field. I know Lazlo is not an expansionist military power but surely they should be able to see the benefits of having a few squadrons of fighter craft at least for defense. I mean they are surrounded by hostile powers that would not shed a tear of they were destroyed so it might behoove them to take advantage opportunities to improve defense.

[SolCannibal]

Honestly, i see it as more of a matter of scale - Lazlo has a population in the what, hundreds of thousands of people with an educational level and infrastructure somewhere between late 20-21th centuries with TW boosting things up here and there.

Meanwhile Center is a trade nexus for millions, not to say billions of FTL-level tech star systems with populations going from colonies of millions to well-established megalopolitan worlds with populations on what, hundreds of billions, trillions?

What do they actually would have to offer that does not involve them bled dry in terribly uneven and unfair trades? Naruni Enterprises is infamous as a predatory multidimensional enterprise that will trick you into selling yourself and your nation into actual slavery and yet it has been out-jackassed by some of the powers of the Three Galaxies in recent times. Do the magical nations of North America have the kind of chutzpah they need to meet such a shark tank head on and not end up as the puppets of the next Splugorth or similar to set a serious foothold in Rifts Earth? I would have been quite leery in Plato or Creed's place, to be honest.

[DhAkael]

This thread is becoming a "Yes we can...no you can't" circular argument and to be honest; TEDIOUS!
You are GM, you can restrict or open up trade as much as you want. in canon, Kevin will NOT want to open up the gates on this because of the metric [cenored] ton of B/S that will be spewed by all the nay-sayers, or the munchkin factor that would anihilate the CS in one fel-swoop (cant have that happen, now can we?).
So Agree to disagree and do what you want with your campaigns. You don't need KS's aproval, unless you're doing a convention or "official" event.
Enough already.

[Shark_Force]

why would you use credits as your medium of trade?

convert your credits into goods. go sell them in the 3 galaxies (we know they value gems, gold, etc at a much better rate than credits, as well as valuing rifts weaponry much more highly than the exchange rate for rifts credits).

now, i wouldn't expect lazlo to go for full-blown spacecraft. but there's plenty of stuff that aren't giant spaceships that they could buy which would be spectacularly useful (some of it military tech, some of it not). of course, we don't know that they haven't, so... maybe they have. better weapons, better means of producing electricity, better defenses, automatic anti-missile systems that can shoot down thousands of missiles at a time, phase cannons that can be mounted into city defenses that will damage large numbers of invading troops through their armour/vehicles, force fields, and so on... who's to say that lazlo doesn't have a lot of that stuff?

as for safe interdimensional trade, as long as it's something fairly small, it's actually super safe, reliable, and easy to have a shifter open a communication rift. you're not going to get a suit of power armour through, but you could probably get a force field generator to be built into a suit of power armour, most small arms, etc. even better if you have a method of shrinking something or storing it in an object which is larger inside than out (they've probably got a temporal wizard somewhere in the city, after all).

as noted, for lazlo in particular, they would likely import more non-war material than war material, but they do have *some* military, so i don't think some military spending in other dimensions would be out of the question. i do agree they wouldn't spend the money on a gigantic 2000 foot long warship... but the smaller items i think would be entirely possible.

[Nekira Sudacne]

A tangental question: Is it ever explained how Naruni establishes interdimensional trade in the first place? Splurgorth have their pyramids, but dispite being supernatural, True Naruni don't appear to have any magical bent, and if they have some kind of technological interdimensional capability they never say so.

Do they just pay the Promethians for use of their McGuffins (The Rift gates) for everything, or what?

[Blue_Lion]

A tangental question: Is it ever explained how Naruni establishes interdimensional trade in the first place? Splurgorth have their pyramids, but dispite being supernatural, True Naruni don't appear to have any magical bent, and if they have some kind of technological interdimensional capability they never say so.

Do they just pay the Promethians for use of their McGuffins (The Rift gates) for everything, or what?

Good question. The writers do not seam that focused on logistics of things.

Tolkeen had a direct supply rout portal thing before it was destroyed. Could have been one of their TW pyramids, it is possible that some of the planets nurni control include magic pyramids.

It never mentions any rift tech that nurni has but to be multi dimensional company they would need some sort of reliable method to ship and collect payment. (and i do not thing the first time they came was through a pyramid.
They do have a presense on center, so it is posible they use their portals.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I would think that paying the prometheans rates for every single interdimensional shipment would be a ghastly cost. then again, maybe that's the reason for the whole Repo Bot and enslaving nations that can't pay. Maybe they DO use the Rifts gates, meaning that customers have to pay outragous markups and if they can't pay, no problem, they have ways of making you pay.

[Khanibal]

A tangental question: Is it ever explained how Naruni establishes interdimensional trade in the first place? Splurgorth have their pyramids, but dispite being supernatural, True Naruni don't appear to have any magical bent, and if they have some kind of technological interdimensional capability they never say so.

Do they just pay the Promethians for use of their McGuffins (The Rift gates) for everything, or what?

Probably something similar to what the Megaversal Legion uses.

[SolCannibal]

A tangental question: Is it ever explained how Naruni establishes interdimensional trade in the first place? Splurgorth have their pyramids, but dispite being supernatural, True Naruni don't appear to have any magical bent, and if they have some kind of technological interdimensional capability they never say so.

Do they just pay the Promethians for use of their McGuffins (The Rift gates) for everything, or what?

Probably something similar to what the Megaversal Legion uses.

And what that would be is indeed adressed? Don't remember much on them right now.

[Khanibal]

A tangental question: Is it ever explained how Naruni establishes interdimensional trade in the first place? Splurgorth have their pyramids, but dispite being supernatural, True Naruni don't appear to have any magical bent, and if they have some kind of technological interdimensional capability they never say so.

Do they just pay the Promethians for use of their McGuffins (The Rift gates) for everything, or what?

Probably something similar to what the Megaversal Legion uses.

And what that would be is indeed adressed? Don't remember much on them right now.

They have a building housing a tech doohickey or possibly even a gadget, built out of solid Handwavium.

[SolCannibal]

A tangental question: Is it ever explained how Naruni establishes interdimensional trade in the first place? Splurgorth have their pyramids, but dispite being supernatural, True Naruni don't appear to have any magical bent, and if they have some kind of technological interdimensional capability they never say so.

Do they just pay the Promethians for use of their McGuffins (The Rift gates) for everything, or what?

Probably something similar to what the Megaversal Legion uses.

And what that would be is indeed adressed? Don't remember much on them right now.

They have a building housing a tech doohickey or possibly even a gadget, built out of solid Handwavium.

Now i'm asking myself if Naruni Enterprises might run a Handwavium mining operation among its many side ventures or deal with their needs through arrangements with some third party.
Also what uses might one have for handwavium gels or aerosols.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

A tangental question: Is it ever explained how Naruni establishes interdimensional trade in the first place? Splurgorth have their pyramids, but dispite being supernatural, True Naruni don't appear to have any magical bent, and if they have some kind of technological interdimensional capability they never say so.

Do they just pay the Promethians for use of their McGuffins (The Rift gates) for everything, or what?

Probably something similar to what the Megaversal Legion uses.

And what that would be is indeed adressed? Don't remember much on them right now.

I dont know why it matters.

We know that they operate trans-dimensionally. How is hardly relevant in any way. It certainly doesn't matter to the story.

For all that it matters, they take some of their literal hundreds of trillions of credits (or more) and hire a battalion of Shifters.

[Khanibal]

South America 2 p. 103
Domed building housing the Dimensional Gate System. Incoming rifts, etc. are directed to a large platform looking like a soundstage. A dimensional beam projector resembling a tank gun can shift an area up to the size of a football field to another dimension.
Fluff text of the Dakir race paints them as more advanced than Naruni, but not drastically so.

[SolCannibal]

South America 2 p. 103
Domed building housing the Dimensional Gate System. Incoming rifts, etc. are directed to a large platform looking like a soundstage. A dimensional beam projector resembling a tank gun can shift an area up to the size of a football field to another dimension.
Fluff text of the Dakir race paints them as more advanced than Naruni, but not drastically so.

What may or not be hyperbole, depending on one's take of things or preferences. Either way, it makes good parallel and reference material for inspiration.

[Khanibal]

South America 2 p. 103
Domed building housing the Dimensional Gate System. Incoming rifts, etc. are directed to a large platform looking like a soundstage. A dimensional beam projector resembling a tank gun can shift an area up to the size of a football field to another dimension.
Fluff text of the Dakir race paints them as more advanced than Naruni, but not drastically so.

What may or not be hyperbole, depending on one's take of things or preferences. Either way, it makes good parallel and reference material for inspiration.

It's South America. I wonder if they really meant futbal field.

[SolCannibal]

South America 2 p. 103
Domed building housing the Dimensional Gate System. Incoming rifts, etc. are directed to a large platform looking like a soundstage. A dimensional beam projector resembling a tank gun can shift an area up to the size of a football field to another dimension.
Fluff text of the Dakir race paints them as more advanced than Naruni, but not drastically so.

What may or not be hyperbole, depending on one's take of things or preferences. Either way, it makes good parallel and reference material for inspiration.

It's South America. I wonder if they really meant futbal field.

I meant hyperbole on how more advanced the Dakir truly are in relation to the Naruni, but yeah, that too.

[Nightmask]

South America 2 p. 103
Domed building housing the Dimensional Gate System. Incoming rifts, etc. are directed to a large platform looking like a soundstage. A dimensional beam projector resembling a tank gun can shift an area up to the size of a football field to another dimension.
Fluff text of the Dakir race paints them as more advanced than Naruni, but not drastically so.

What may or not be hyperbole, depending on one's take of things or preferences. Either way, it makes good parallel and reference material for inspiration.

It's South America. I wonder if they really meant futbal field.

I meant hyperbole on how more advanced the Dakir truly are in relation to the Naruni, but yeah, that too.

Not hyperbole, given when the Legion rose up against their oppressors their man-sized opponents had hand weapons that dealt damage more suited to starship weapons and personal force fields equal to what you'd see from smaller starships which Naruni has never demonstrated anything close to. Something like energy weapons that dealt 1d6X100 mega-damage and force fields that took thousands of MDC in damage before collapsing. I can't remember seeing anyone close to that other than the Invaders and the Dominators.

[Incriptus]

A tangental question: Is it ever explained how Naruni establishes interdimensional trade in the first place? Splurgorth have their pyramids, but dispite being supernatural, True Naruni don't appear to have any magical bent, and if they have some kind of technological interdimensional capability they never say so.

Do they just pay the Promethians for use of their McGuffins (The Rift gates) for everything, or what?

It may also be worth noting humans were experimenting with teleportation/dimensional travel pre-rifts in Hiroshima and Texas. So Tech based dimensional travel isn't really off the table.