Sword-Chi and organic disconnect, the HANDS

[Axelmania]

Mystic China 160:

"focuses Chi through the hands"
..
"If the character stops using the technique, or drops the sword, then the borrowed Chi is instantly returned"

Firstly, the plurality... would you require touching the weapon with both hands? Unusable for 1-armed guys?

Now consider some of the equipment in Ninjas and Superspies

*pg 88 "leather gloves" are part of a "full leathers" of a driving suit
*pg 99 "gloves and hood" are part of the "ninja outfit"
*pg 146 "hand gauntlets" are part of "Ninja Clothing"
*pg 157 "Gloves and some kind of head protection" are part of "6. Nerve Gas Protection"
*pg 170 "gloves and boots" are part of the K.R.A.K. Uniform

Then we have Cybernetics to consider, like the "Hand Replacements" on 67-69. Would that cause problems with channeling chi into a weapon? What about an entire arm?

Since MC is also an HU sourcebook, there is a further selection of equipment to consider:

*pg 98 (roll 87-95) for Aliens with gauntlets with built-in energy blasters or missile launchers
*pg 106 "Bionic Hand Weapons" in particular the "Extendible Hydraulic Hand/Arm" on 97
*pg 130 "combat gauntlets" which Analytical Genius build weapons into
*pg 149 gauntlets which are Enchanted Objects
*pg 194 the Robot power category, firstly type 3 (exoskeleton) which is a "robot suit or power armor" (next step up from body armor gloves/gauntlets) or even type 1 (robot vehicle) Page 204 (Selection D: Arms and Hands) applies in both cases.

I figure there has some be SOME give, the core of a sword blade (usually metal, but could also be wood/bamboo) which continues into the handle usually has the handle wrapped for padding, and something as simple as wearing gloves to protect against cold / gas / fingerprints interfering with the power seems like it would be important to note if that caused the power to function as if you "dropped" the sword...

But if there's too much give, you have situations like it not counting as dropping a sword if you extend your arm an extra 6 feet, or are piloting something like a Glitter Boy where your arms are still in the torso and there could be a 5 ft gap between your flesh and your hands...

I'm wondering if we could find the thickness/radius of auras it could serve as a guideline here? N&SS 163:

Any detective psionics, like Aura of Truth, Detect Psionics, or See Aura, will easily detect and evaluate characters who have powerful Chi (as Chi Awareness. In this book, see Chi Mastery).

I can't remember if I read somewhere about how far auras extend from the flesh though... anyone recall if any Palladium products ever made mention of that? Sounds like a good guideline for "how thick a glove can I wear" for powers like this.

[The Beast]

I generally go with the "hands breadth" rule. Basically place your hand with the thumb against your chest, fingers pointed at your face. Anything that could conceivably fit between you body and where the outside of your hand is would interact with your aura. So I wouldn't have a problem with someone wearing gloves or even Deadboy EBA for that matter. I do put the cutoff for that with mecha units though.

Having said that, I don't recall exactly what the official rule is on that. I recall one of the freelancers saying they use the same rule in the PFRPG section, but I don't know if it was ever written in one of PB's books.

[eliakon]

I generally go with the "hands breadth" rule. Basically place your hand with the thumb against your chest, fingers pointed at your face. Anything that could conceivably fit between you body and where the outside of your hand is would interact with your aura. So I wouldn't have a problem with someone wearing gloves or even Deadboy EBA for that matter. I do put the cutoff for that with mecha units though.

Having said that, I don't recall exactly what the official rule is on that. I recall one of the freelancers saying they use the same rule in the PFRPG section, but I don't know if it was ever written in one of PB's books.

I generally go with the "hands breadth" rule. Basically place your hand with the thumb against your chest, fingers pointed at your face. Anything that could conceivably fit between you body and where the outside of your hand is would interact with your aura. So I wouldn't have a problem with someone wearing gloves or even Deadboy EBA for that matter. I do put the cutoff for that with mecha units though.

Having said that, I don't recall exactly what the official rule is on that. I recall one of the freelancers saying they use the same rule in the PFRPG section, but I don't know if it was ever written in one of PB's books.

I will point out that canonically a mage can cast spells while wearing armor or even Power Armor and they will function properly.
I will also point out that we are canonically told that at least one chi-using martial arts form uses armor (Demon Quellers and their demon armor)
I will aslo point out that there is no canon rule that says that wearing armor or even power armor hinders psionics (or chi powers).
I will additionally point out that in Rifts the chi powers there can, and routinely are, used by people wearing body armor up to and including EBA suits.

All of which suggests to me that as per canon you can utilize abilities through clothing and armor unless there is an explicit statement to the contrary.

[Axelmania]

It's not so much that I think armor stops chi in any way, but moreso this specific ability which talks about focusing chi through the hands and how dropping a weapon breaks that focus.

If we interpret "drop" as "not holding" (otherwise, intentionally setting down your sword would not end the technique!) then the question is at what point of disconnect (thickness of gloves, bionic substitution, your fingers are pulling strings which flex the fingers of your robot suit) is it no longer the case that your hands are channeling chi into the gripped weapon?

[The Beast]

Once they no longer maintain possession.

[eliakon]

It's not so much that I think armor stops chi in any way, but moreso this specific ability which talks about focusing chi through the hands and how dropping a weapon breaks that focus.

If we interpret "drop" as "not holding" (otherwise, intentionally setting down your sword would not end the technique!) then the question is at what point of disconnect (thickness of gloves, bionic substitution, your fingers are pulling strings which flex the fingers of your robot suit) is it no longer the case that your hands are channeling chi into the gripped weapon?

At the point at which you are no longer directly manipulating the object via the hand and/or the point at which the material in question between you and the object is of a quantity and/or nature as to disrupt the force in question.

Thus if you have a glove on, you can use the power freely, since the powers can be used in clothing...cladding does not stop it from being your hand unless the cladding is thick enough or otherwise of a nature that the power in question will not function at all OR if there is a specific call out that it does not work.

If you then put on a suit of power armor you may or may not be able to use the power freely depending on the GMs interpretation of the power. Even if able to use it, you could only do so in the smaller suits of PA, as you still generate the sword in your hand which in larger PA suits is located somewhere inside the arm.

We have multiple canon statements that bionics are considered to be part of the body, and thus a bionic arm is still classed as your arm.

Manipulating something else to be a proxy hand though... is no longer your hand, clad or not, and thus you can not summon a Psi-Sword in a robots hand.

[Axelmania]

Once they no longer maintain possession.

How would you define that though? I could have a mile long spaceship I'm piloting and consider myself in possession of any gear stashed there.

At the point at which you are no longer directly manipulating the object via the hand

Even the thinnest glove means it's no longer DIRECT manipulation...

the point at which the material in question between you and the object is of a quantity and/or nature as to disrupt the force in question.

I don't know what the quantity or nature is

Thus if you have a glove on, you can use the power freely, since the powers can be used in clothing

I'm not sure if this is true, the martial art technique doesn't discuss whether or not clothing interferes. Maybe some other MATs do, can't recall.

...cladding does not stop it from being your hand unless the cladding is thick enough or otherwise of a nature that the power in question will not function at all OR if there is a specific call out that it does not work.

IE the book does not say?

Manipulating something else to be a proxy hand though... is no longer your hand, clad or not, and thus you can not summon a Psi-Sword in a robots hand.

Gloves are arguably also a proxy hand.

[The Beast]

I meant physical possession, not legal.

[dreicunan]

I disagree that gloves can be argued to be a proxy hand. At its root a proxy is something able to act in the place of something else. A glove cannot act in the hand's place. It merely protects (however minimally) the hand.

[eliakon]

At the point at which you are no longer directly manipulating the object via the hand

Even the thinnest glove means it's no longer DIRECT manipulation...

Actually no, you are still manipulating it with your hand.

Thus if you have a glove on, you can use the power freely, since the powers can be used in clothing

I'm not sure if this is true, the martial art technique doesn't discuss whether or not clothing interferes. Maybe some other MATs do, can't recall.

If martial arts powers could not be used while wearing clothing that would be something mentioned.
Especially since Ninjitsu the various Demon Queller stuff, Kickboxing, and some of the other arts involve wearing clothes and/or armor that cover one's hands.

...cladding does not stop it from being your hand unless the cladding is thick enough or otherwise of a nature that the power in question will not function at all OR if there is a specific call out that it does not work.

IE the book does not say?

I.e. unless there is a statement that wearing clothing/armor blocks the use of a power then there is no blockage because the presumption is that you can use your powers while wearing normal wear unless otherwise stated.

Manipulating something else to be a proxy hand though... is no longer your hand, clad or not, and thus you can not summon a Psi-Sword in a robots hand.

Gloves are arguably also a proxy hand.

No they are not in anyway, shape, or form a proxy.
A proxy is a replacement of something that is in lieu of the original.
A glove is simply your hand inside clothing. It is not a replacement of your hand.

[Axelmania]

Actually no, you are still manipulating it with your hand.

Your hand is manipulating the glove and the glove manipulates what it touches.

If martial arts powers could not be used while wearing clothing that would be something mentioned.

You could say the same about bionic hands, hands with gauntlets, hands with power armor, etc.

Especially since Ninjitsu the various Demon Queller stuff, Kickboxing, and some of the other arts involve wearing clothes and/or armor that cover one's hands.

Ninjas may have a gloved outfit but they are perfectly capable of removing gloves, and Sword Chi Technique from Mystic China was probably not designed with a Japanese martial art in mind.

Demon Quellers are from Rifts China, does Sword Chi Technique exist there?

Kickboxing doesn't seem relevant to wielding swords.

unless there is a statement that wearing clothing/armor blocks the use of a power then there is no blockage because the presumption is that you can use your powers while wearing normal wear unless otherwise stated.

Power Armor can get pretty disconnected though, if you can use sword-chi via a sword gripped by Ulti-Max Power Armor then using it via a sword gripped by a Jager doesn't seem distinct at all, both have pilot hands in the torso operating robotic arms.

No they are not in anyway, shape, or form a proxy.
A proxy is a replacement of something that is in lieu of the original.
A glove is simply your hand inside clothing. It is not a replacement of your hand.

The arms of robot vehicles do not replace the hand like bionic limbs do, the original hand still exists guiding the actions of the extremity, just like a glove, but over a greater distance of separation between flesh and sword handle.

I disagree that gloves can be argued to be a proxy hand. At its root a proxy is something able to act in the place of something else. A glove cannot act in the hand's place. It merely protects (however minimally) the hand.

Normally a suit of power armor cannot operate as a hand without being operated by a pilot either though.

You could argue that Telemechanic Possession could allow that, but then, so could telekinetic manipulation of a glove.

[dreicunan]

I disagree that gloves can be argued to be a proxy hand. At its root a proxy is something able to act in the place of something else. A glove cannot act in the hand's place. It merely protects (however minimally) the hand.

Normally a suit of power armor cannot operate as a hand without being operated by a pilot either though.

You could argue that Telemechanic Possession could allow that, but then, so could telekinetic manipulation of a glove.

The issue would be whether your hand is actually inside the hand of the armor or further removed. If your hand is on a joystick which causes the arm of the power armor to move, that would be a proxy hand and too far removed. It wouldn't be in your hand.

[Axelmania]

So would your way of defining this be "some part of the sword handle must lie between 2 points of the hand if a line was drawn through them"?

[dreicunan]

So would your way of defining this be "some part of the sword handle must lie between 2 points of the hand if a line was drawn through them"?

Essentially; can the hand reasonably be claimed to be gripping the sword would be another way of looking at it.

[eliakon]

So would your way of defining this be "some part of the sword handle must lie between 2 points of the hand if a line was drawn through them"?

No
That is an open invitation to rules lawyering and weasle words.
The defintion is "are you using your hand to directly weild the sword via the hand itself."
Clothing and armor are basically irelivant unless something explicitly makes them relevant.

If you are not using your hand, but a servo, a remote control, A TK construct... what ever. Then it is not your hand.

As this is not a doctoral thesis we do not have to define the word "hand" to the nth degree nor is the question of if a hand wearing a glove is a hand or if it has a ring on, or if it has a sunburn and thus the skin is peeling, or...
This is not an exact science and in general attempting to make it overly exact is only done for the purpose of trying to 'get one over' or 'get around' something.
If people want to apply linquistic precision to texts then they should be using texts written with linguistic presision or be prepared to get nonsensical answers back GIGO and all that.

[Axelmania]

Both "reasonably be claimed" and "directly" are flexible interpretations which are open to weaseling. There is not necessarily a clear line between armor and power-armor. Exoskeletons in particular blur this line.

Many power armor / exo skeletons still have their hands inside the gloves but servos will amplify the strength they can use, for example.

How do you think "handle must be between 2 points on the hand" is open to rules lawyering problems?

If it's too broad you could narrow it to "between 1 point somewhere on the palm and 1 point somewhere on a finger".

[guardiandashi]

Both "reasonably be claimed" and "directly" are flexible interpretations which are open to weaseling. There is not necessarily a clear line between armor and power-armor. Exoskeletons in particular blur this line.

Many power armor / exo skeletons still have their hands inside the gloves but servos will amplify the strength they can use, for example.

How do you think "handle must be between 2 points on the hand" is open to rules lawyering problems?

If it's too broad you could narrow it to "between 1 point somewhere on the palm and 1 point somewhere on a finger".

and that doesn't even get into the whole how do you manipulate the "hand" stuff.

for instance in Robotech/Macross you could make the argument that the veritechs are for some purposes alive enough to channel the chi to what the mecha is holding.
the movie pacific rim, the jagers piloting rigs essentially turn the jagers into giant power armor from a certain point of view.

I realize I am kind of being devils advocate here but I am pointing out certain cases where I could make an argument that the pilot can channel Chi through their mecha in certain (special) cases.

[eliakon]

Both "reasonably be claimed" and "directly" are flexible interpretations which are open to weaseling.

Which is why I didn't use the word "reasonably be claimed"
Directly isn't flexible at all though. Either something is direct or it is not and is therefore indirect. There is no 'sort of directly if you look at it from the right angle"

There is not necessarily a clear line between armor and power-armor. Exoskeletons in particular blur this line.

Many power armor / exo skeletons still have their hands inside the gloves but servos will amplify the strength they can use, for example.

Yes they do. Your point?

How do you think "handle must be between 2 points on the hand" is open to rules lawyering problems?

If it's too broad you could narrow it to "between 1 point somewhere on the palm and 1 point somewhere on a finger".

Well first off, to be blunt... because it is you. Your 'reasonable suggestions' of a definition almost invariably end up having weasel room built in.
Second off, it is open to abuse because you run into issues like "well my hand is near it, but hey, I can draw a line through this tiny bit of the handle here"
Third, because in my decades of gaming I have yet to have a player come forward and try to provide an abtuse and obscure definition for something simple for any other purpose other than to turn around an weasel word it.
Fourth, because it ignores the question of if you even have to grip it which right there sets off alarm bells
Need I go on?

[Wise_Owl]

The Sword and you are one. Are you one with your gloves? One with your Cybernetic Hand? One with your Power Armour? Where does the Qi flow?

The Legalist seeks to create a law that no-one can circumvent
The Confucian generates a rule and trusts to Man's goodness to extent that Rule as it should be.
The Tao, of course, simply is.

You must be able to extend your Qi into the sword; doing so through gloves seems simple enough. Doing so through your arm into a Cybernetic hand and than into the sword would be the work of years of training to overcome your 'disability'. As to power armour, well the question phrased as 'If you are operating a crane, and there is a sword at the end of the crane can you...' Yes well that is absurd.

[eliakon]

The Sword and you are one. Are you one with your gloves? One with your Cybernetic Hand? One with your Power Armour? Where does the Qi flow?

The Legalist seeks to create a law that no-one can circumvent
The Confucian generates a rule and trusts to Man's goodness to extent that Rule as it should be.
The Tao, of course, simply is.

^this is the best summation of the issue and answer yet^

[Axelmania]

How do you think "handle must be between 2 points on the hand" is open to rules lawyering problems?

If it's too broad you could narrow it to "between 1 point somewhere on the palm and 1 point somewhere on a finger".

Well first off, to be blunt... because it is you. Your 'reasonable suggestions' of a definition almost invariably end up having weasel room built in.

That is a pointless personal attack. Your distrust of me may motivate you to look for exploits, but it is not explanation for an exploit itself. This is why I asked "how" and not "why".

Second off, it is open to abuse because you run into issues like "well my hand is near it, but hey, I can draw a line through this tiny bit of the handle here"

Are you referring to option A (line between any 2 points on hand) or option B (line between any point on palm and any point on finger?)

If you want to be super restrictive, we could also introduce option C (line between any 2 points on palm) since the palm is not a motionless flat plane and can curve in and of itself.

For example: touch the tip of your thumb to the tip of your pinky. Notice the U-shaped bridge in the palm. This is about around an inch of height.

So if we define "holding" as an object existing on a path between those 2 points, a flat palm using option C could not be holding anything at all, and could only hold something which has some point of it occupying the space between a curved palm.

Third, because in my decades of gaming I have yet to have a player come forward and try to provide an abtuse and obscure definition for something simple for any other purpose other than to turn around an weasel word it.

Fourth, because it ignores the question of if you even have to grip it which right there sets off alarm bells

Need I go on?

There is a need to go on, to confront what I believe are straw-man arguments, which I hope were not intended.

Allowing anything but a naked-fleshed grip to qualify as a grip is already weaseling. Coming up with an impartial concept rather than an arbitrary thickness of glove is more reasonable. Especially since it would scale with size.

A 1ft thick glove might not cause problems for a 100ft giant, but it should certianly cause them for a 3ft tall Gnome, for example.

Options A/B/C which I've proposed do not ignore the question of whether or not to grip it. Existing between fingers is what grip is. These simply explore "how secure a grip".

IE I can "grip" a sword between the tip of my pinky and ring finger (option A) but that's not really in the spirit of what gripping a weapon traditionally means, which would be closer to Option B or Option C.

There should obviously be a conveyance-of-force assumption too. IE you can't manipulate a handle by curling your hand around it but not somehow exerting force upon it. You don't have to touch it yourself, but you to have to touch something (which can touch something, which can touch something) a series of atoms which transfer kinetic forces from your flesh to the object, such as a glove or gauntlet.

Though psychics might qualify as an exception. You can "hold" something using telekinesis or ectoplasm, after all. Whether or not that's truly "touching" something is an argument I don't want to get into here, I'm more concerned with classic physics, and the continuum of gloves > gauntlets > exogloves > robohands.